#idk something abt the dynamics between the seven really gets me

[haliaiii]

more pjo stuff

[punkbxt]

dime the takes. por favor.

*gets real close to the vending machine* quiero pepsi

okay all seriousness tho imma try to do this in a way thats like idk semi respectful towards janeway but i also need yall to know i do NOT reallyf fuck with her. idk if ive explained why before but i guess here we go

unlike most people that enjoy star trek i didnt really get into it till 2018 and then the demmy hit n i had nothing but time to consume every star trek imaginable and thats how i found voyager. yeah sure make fun of me for not knowing what star trek is but i need YALL to know that it is white and usamerican culture to be raised on trek and I DONT CARE. the only reason i got into star trek is bc a white friend introduced me. all this to say i was introduced to janeways actress through oitnb red ilu so much red best evil white lady <3

anyways i know janeway gets hate for having been the only lady captain and i always preface anything i say about her with this so yall understand that this is not the reason i dislike her but in reality it doesnt help either

also its tiring as fuck to include my opposing argument but it has to be done bc ppl are like “what about- pkay but you didnt consider how- yeah but- actually youre wrong bc-“ like fuck man im doing my damndest i literally hate voicing my opinions bc yall INSIST people of color dont actually get it n its tiring

if youve followed me since i started voyagerposting you may have noticed ive only actually drawn janeway twice and its cuz as a person she rubs me the wrong way for so many reasons

janeway gets put in this impossible position of being the top of the hierarchy pyramid to a crew that doesnt think theyll ever make it home again. shes deemed a mother figure by a LOT of characters but im gonna talk abt her dynamics with b’elanna, and seven because if i were to talk about the dynamics between janeway and harry thatd have to be its own post

when i get into a show, i loooveeee knowing what was happening behind the scenes because i love it!! i love set design i love character design i love costume design i love seeing what the actors are like outside of the show and how they feel about these characters bc these things ARE important. (writers too pero i have beef) behind the scenes is the biggest influence to the final product bc its the reason the final product exists in the first place and behind the scenes so many things went wrong. and when actors are mistreated or dont get along with eachother it becomes pretty apparent. well at least if you analyze things the way i do

so heres my issue with janeway seven and b’elanna. b’elanna is typecast to be the ugly character. klingons gave always gotten the short end of the stick and the case with her isnt as harsh bc her actress is a mixed puerto rican (information that has actually only recently been revealed bc when i tried to find out what roxan’s ethnicity was in 2019 i literally could not find anything definitive except for shes latina) but she STILL gets a lot of shit

one of my favorite things about voyager before the introduction of seven was how b’elanna and janeway actually got to bond a lot over science and when seven took on the roll of pretty girl on the ship, b’elanna and janeway suffered a LOT for it. we have an interesting dynamic between a maquis engineer and a federation captain genuinely not getting along bc b’elanna doesnt see janeways as an authority figure. not until chakotay has something to say about it and also until b’elanna and janeway actually talk about shit n get over their differences. the issue is when ppl purposely skip the earlier seasons to get to seven and then a lot of important interpersonal character building is missed I SAY THIS BC PEOPLE OFTEN FORGET THAT VOYAGER HAS BEEN ASSIMILATED BY THE BORG BEFORE AND EVEN THE WRITERS LET IT SLIP THEUR MIND N ITS LIKE BRO U HAVE GOLD TO WRITE WITH N U JUST LET IT COLLECT IN THE CORNER

seven is a unique and interesting character when she is first introduced. seven looks like any other borg and is so COOL. and then immediately all the cool interesting things about the way seven looks is basically negated to a few shiny parts. and yes janeway is partly to blame

BUT! what is the easiest way to gain the trust of people who already have bad history with who you once were? assimilation of course! seven goes from being one of many to the outcasts outcast

but punkbxt! what does any of this have to do with why you dislike janeway as a character? if anything it sounds more like you dislike seven. as long as the character is white ill always hold a lil disdain for them in my heart <3

janeway symbolizes the best of starfleet. she is an accredited officer and an extremely capable scientist. she is a beautiful white woman in THE position of power something that was revolutionary for her time. the issues with white women being put in positions of power is they they have NEVER had the interests of black and brown people to heart. “yes they-“ SHUT UP and let me speak before you decide to comment on this goddamn post

feminism throughout the centuries has focused on white women and while a show is merely a fraction of the lived reality of its time the effects are still extremely clear. white feminism JUMPED at the character of janeway and celebrated her and rightfully so! the issues came about when women like b’elanna got attacked and pushed to the side. this directly affected janeway within fandom and she got and still is recognized for accomplishments SHE DID NOT DO. she got put on a pedestal and once that happens to a character they suddenly can do no wrong. except she does because shes a human and shes white and shes a character with writers behind her

b’elanna has never actually been a super popular character and the wave of love for her is actually pretty fucking recent and not to toot my own horn but i definitely was a big part of the b’elanna love resurgence. when i got into voyager and these dates ARE important, i used to scroll through her entire tag easily a couple times through a DAY. fans occasionally created art for her and yeah! she got fics but nowhere in comparison to her other peers. surrounding yourself with people who also love her and want to create for her does help with recognition of b’elanna but its super recent stuff. and to add onto that any white fan that has an opinion about her will always be biased because they just do not understand what it is like to exist as a latina woman of color

this is where me myself and i come into the story because wowowowowow star trek is so cool! star trek preaches on and on and on about diversity love acceptance hate oppression and all that good stuff so who wouldnt love it??? and then??? OMG THERES A LATINA CHARACTER IN ONE SERIES OMG OMG OMG. imagine my disappointment when i found out that she a main character barely was getting any love. it hurt. because even within a narrative of inclusion somehow characters of color just seem to always be pushed to the side. especially when a fandom has such a majority percentage of white people

watching her story was SO personal to me. i could see myself in her struggling with living in america. i lived my childhoods in puerto rico and in many different parts of usamerica, surrounded by family and people like me until that wasnt the case anymore. i spent my life living as a nomad with no place to call home for on average no less than a year and no more than three. i could understand b’elanna with her struggles of living in a klingon monastery and then being thrust into an unforgiving and unaccepting world where humans/white people are the most important. the internalized racism that i grew up with was horrendous and to this DAY i am still trying to learn and better myself and connect with my culture in any way i can. because in a black ans white world, where is the space for those of us that dont fall under either? we are ignored and erased and with b’elanna is has been the same

the rejection b’elanna had to her klingon side was something i could relate to incredibly. but it still isnt enough. because even though i could connect with her through her klingon-ness, her latinidad is simply a label. throughout the show you see her change and grow and assimilate to the federation standard and it HURT. the narrative that i was directly picking up from her story was yeah you can be a part of the club but only if you do it how we want you to do it. and dont you EVER even talk about being latino unless its to shit on your deadbeat of a father. and i did. i learned how to adapt at an extremely young age. ive been told its one of the things i do best (sad isnt it?)

and okay how do seven and janeway have anything to do with this? well they are the white women who we literally have to conform to and for. thats it period

seven as a character had an amazing opportunity to challenge gender and sexuality because of her story (one that would have been better suited had she been an indigenous woman which ive spoken on before but thats for another post too) and then the people in charge decided that she just HAD to be the sexywoman instead of leaning into just how much she was no longer human and how humanity itself doesnt actually have one right way to be

this narrative is given to us by janeway time and time and time again correcting seven and telling her that seven simply is not himan enough and still has to learn. (things autistic ppl can suuuuuper relate to which is a reason i could connect with seven at all). no matter how you want to look at it (whatever canon you want to decide isnt canon anymore for the sake of a fucking ship) janeway was directly written to be a mentor and mother figure to seven. janeway is there to help her learn when in reality she can never understand what its like to be an outcast within the federation and to take it a step further be part of a eace which is treated with hostility by humans. something b’elanna CAN understand and relate to because at the time of voyager shits still om the rocks between klingons and humans. janeway pushes seven to accept and embrace humanity as if thats the only option seven has to become a better character but its just not true. the story woven between janeway and seven is one of white women and femininity and how to be the perfect white woman and how to be a good lover. by actively ignoring the help and influence b’elanna could have provided for seven to learn and adapt to a majority human world they put all that weight on janeway. something that affects ALL three of them negatively and results in a narrative of “well b’elanna could never understand and relate to seven in a way that matters” which is beyond true because they are so interwoven even unintentionally so. it simply just wasnt taken further and its a true shame

and this isnt even touching on how badly seven’s actress was treated by janeways actress for being the pretty new doll at the time of filming and how that affected how i felt about janeway/seven as a ship (similarly how castle and beckett did not get along behind scenes i could no longer enjoy that show anymore)

i simplified this IMMENSELY and this shit is already long enough as it is so im sorry about that but yeah thats it. also sorry if things got repetitive ive been told i tend to do that when i write. these are my feelings and i am a real human behind this account so keep in mind how you react to this post. i have recieved countless hate anons most of which ive deleted throughout my short lived time as a fan of this franchise. i used to be MUCH more vocal about representation within star trek and people got mad so i left. but im back because the people that love b’elanna and that love that i have things to say about her matter so much fucking more than any angry person ever will

[iant0jones]

i dread to ask but,,, what was so bad abt crimes of grindelwald? i havent seen it yet and the overwhelming reaction ive seen from everyone is "EW WTF NO GET IT AWAY FROM ME"

Okay…..I’d like to preface this by saying that just because I personally didn’t like what they did with the film doesn’t mean I can’t see why some people have enjoyed it. If people can come out of the theater saying they loved the film, I glad of it, and I’m finding reading the more positive reviews very interesting. If/when you decide to see the film, I hope you can ignore all of my opinions and decide on your own lol

Personally what I didn’t like (in the vaguest, least spoilery way possible for me):

the tonal shift between the first fantastic beasts and the crimes of grindelwald. Oh my god, this movie is so incredibly dark (both in themes and in lighting and color choices lol). I’m not saying that these movies shouldn’t be dark because HP has always been dark and has pushed boundaries when it comes to what society thinks children can handle and comprehend and what they actually can handle and comprehend, wisely and maturely. And of course the subject matter they’re dealing with deserves to be taken seriously. But the first film was so incredibly wholesome and fun that the shift between the tone of that film and the tone of this one is so jarring and frankly disappointing. Again, I understand that they have to go dark with this, but I think very few films that are produced these days are able to address difficult subjects while still remaining fun and entertaining and gentle films like the first one did. I would never say it was a mistake to start off this franchise with Newt as the central character because I absolutely adore him, but I do think his kind nature set the series’s tone on a different note than what the creator’s are going for as far as the series as a whole. I simply personally prefer the original wholesomeness

some of my favorite characters were brought in directions that I’m really upset about. I can’t go into that more without being spoilery, but I think the resolve and the strength shown in these characters completely crumbled in this film and it broke my heart. One of them especially I understand has to play the long game with their character development, but that doesn’t mean I have to be happy about it lol. Also I think some character dynamics were developed too fast and they needed more time to breathe

going off of that last point, this is very much an “in-between” film. It’s a set-up for what’s really going to come later. Again, I would NEVER wish for the first movie to not exist, but I think, from the pov of a film student/critic rather than the pov of someone who’s emotionally attached to the first film, I think aspects of the first film and this film could have been combined into one film to make this plot seem more fulfilled rather than having this film be a stepping stone for the franchise

again, going off of that point, there are way too many storylines for this one stepping stone film to handle. Having had time to process the film, I now understand basically everything that happened, but while watching it they were jumping between like…..idk, seven different mini plots or something along those lines. It was confusing to watch in the moment and frustrating because all I could think was how I didn’t care about what they were talking about and how I wished they were developing the (imo) more important arcs. The pacing was just……not for me.

aGAIN lol, going off of that! There were too many minor characters introduced that I feel the film and the audience don’t have time to care about as much as those characters perhaps deserved. There’s one character esp that was extremely and pointlessly Deus ex Machina, which I really don’t think is necessary when you have several accomplished adult wizards and witches at your fingertips

canon? I don’t know her

TL; DR

the tonal difference between the first and the second movie is so jarring. They shouldn’t have started the series off with something so wholesome if they were going to go so dark so quickly

they’re taking some of my favorite characters in directions I’m personally really upset about

this film is only as good as how the plot plays out in later films. It’s too much of an “in-between” film that can’t stand on its own

way too many plotlines

way too many characters to focus on

canon? I don’t know her

That being said, there are some things I really really loved about the film. I’m not going to go too in-depth because if I leave things out on my list of things I loved, then you can put two and two together and start making spoilery assumptions about things I didn’t like

Some of my favorite things include:

Newt as always. He’s my angel and I love him to bits

Jude Law as Dumbledore. Just……………wow. I’m obsessed. I could go on and on but this post is already SO long

the opening scene. Anyone who’s been following me for awhile probably knows that I love dramatic gothic epicness, and oh my god that was thrilling to watch for me

While I’m angry that D*pp was cast and hate him as a person, I’ve been a fan of his work for most of my life and I think the character of Grindelwald is a great villain. I was never a fan of how Ralph Fiennes played Voldemort, so even though I think someone better could have been cast, this is refreshing (morals aside)

Thank you for asking and letting me get that off my chest 💙 now retcon all of that from your memory and watch the film with an open mind lol

[gurguliare]

so apparently the last flareup of elwing discourse was in july, which i know because emma and i then proceeded to have a fantastically involved conversation about maglor and maedhros’s babysitter qualifications, in the six months before gil-galad came to pick the twins up

now seems as timely as ever.

Emma: i feel about maglor and the kidnap twins the way that i feel about shakespeare plays Emma: .... Emma: that’s one of those sentences you instantly regret

Emma: what i meant was Emma: there are some specific shakespeare plays i read in an abridged version when i was like ten Emma: and instantly and vividly created this FULL INTERNAL FANDOM for Emma: which are not (1) very good summaries of the plays themselves Emma: (2) based on any real production that i could ever see Gogol: wait so tell me more about your damn kidnap twins fanon though Emma: THE THING IS I DON’T KNOW. IT JUST PLAYS ON THE INSIDE OF MY EYELIDS Emma: i don’t know i feel like— i worry about it too Emma: but just, consider that caveat hovering over it, that i worry that my attitudes about this are not great, but Emma: i tend to believe the text when tolkien says that a love grew between them Emma: so i like all the ones quite a bit where elros and elrond are plotting his murder but that’s not what i imagine… i figure them as… well Emma: kids! who maybe Emma: especially elrond Emma: internalize at first that something went wrong, and maybe maglor had to do this? to take them away from their parents? so Gogol: oh my god………. baby .... Emma: i like the idea of elrond’s vast understanding or whatever and deep worrying about the future coming in part from this— unconscious need to placate and then to actually help this very troubled MOTHERFUCKER WHO KIDNAPPED HIM Emma: ok, i’ll just— figure out what’s best. because you don’t know what’s best? and your brother is a creep? so like, we’re going to… work this out? together? you made some mistakes, but wh ohasn’t made some mistakes Emma: ha ha! aren’t we all noldor here! Emma: and it taking him a while to intellectually get to “no… we were kidnapped…” Emma: like the twenty year, very serious version of the "WAIT." comic Gogol: fuck Emma: and at that point the war is happening and they have other concerns Emma: and i also like the idea that elrond never totally got out of it Emma: like, in his subconscious Emma: that if you ask him he’s like “no it’s fucked up they stole me from my home and family” etc but, well, he’s still like “but… you know… the noldor aren’t ALL bad… those greatly harmed can do great harm… :(“ Emma: and that requires a maglor who isn’t like, discussing which of them they’ll kill as the unnecessary hostage Emma: with maedhros, although i like those fics quite a lot Emma: at this point my elros characterization is just “em’s elros” so w/e assume i just said that a bunch Emma: “the most christian elros imaginable" Gogol: i feel like em's elros is my actual fingon headcanon Gogol: no that's a joke Gogol: it's not completely a joke. Gogol: also, has troubling implications Gogol: but yeah. I LIKE YOUR VERSION better than some of the maglor’s malice ones i'm Gogol: contemplating Gogol: i was thinking definitely before you'd even started in on details that like. … yeah, i mean, i prefer to take the text at face value in those instances where it DOES give rare emotional insight, and also idk if you read simaethae's elwing meta today but Emma: nooo Gogol: one sec Gogol: this paragraph: - only Elwing lives, and finds her husband, and they sail West, the first people to manage it in centuries, and they find the Valar and Earendil, the longed for that cometh beyond hope, persuades them to intervene and win the War; and this time the twins live too, and not only do the Feanorians let them live but love grew after between them, as little might be thought - Gogol: which is like, yeah, the reason i genuinely love the … texture of the voyage of earendil chapter, where the sheer barren scraped-cleanness of the landscape makes hope a sort of inevitable weed Gogol: anyway so Emma: RIGHT Emma: there’s nothing ELSE Emma: you HAVE to be with each other Emma: everyone else is DEAD Emma: of tuor and his coming to gondolin is like that too! Gogol: YEAH although tuor has much more of the actively numinous quality i associate with luthien and beren, where it's not only… hope against darkness but also like… i don't know, wonder and delight, for some fucking reason--earendil's voyage and the war of wrath by comparison are both so curiously Gogol: not "secular" but like… delimited by practical necessities Gogol: to get back to maglor and elrond i was just going to say that like, definitely that caretaker role unfortunately on elrond's part Emma: yes yes yes yes Emma: you are right abt tuor and the wonder and delight—that last unexpected stream of water is no joke! Emma: as opposed to the fens at sirion. Gogol: YEAH Gogol: i mean beleriand after gondolin is really like… right, every water source is tainted, but the sea Gogol: but fuck that was what i was going to say actually was one thing i was picturing re maglor elrond and elros was like, maglor and maedhros literally MUCH MORE OUT OF THEIR FUCKING DEPTH Gogol: than they often are in fic... Gogol: like, no joke, struggling to survive against terrible odds for absolutely no motivation Emma: y e sssss it's Emma: i don’t know i fthis makes mechanical sense but i always pictured them like Emma: ... Emma: camping on the really barren parts of, like, bodega bay Gogol: flakdgjalKJGLS:GJ Gogol: YEAH Emma: where it’s just volcanic rock and seagulls Emma: “want to go fishing” “ummm" Emma: “do the children we kidnapped know how to fish” “YOU can ask them that question" Emma: for forty YEARS Emma: in the distance the CONTINENT EXPLODES! Gogol: i'd also be really interested in seeing a… more engaged and frustrated and possessive-of-his brother maedhros honestly like a maedhros who almost wakes up with the last kinslaying Gogol: but in the worst way Emma: ohhhh my god Emma: yeah Emma: not the gentled miserable murderer Emma: but the one who’s determined to keep maglor, and only maglor, alive Gogol: like does he care about the KIDS, no, but is it a way to get at maglor or occasionally to get maglor up, OKAY Emma: and even if elrond and elros did not totally pick up on this, Emma: he wouldn’t be ashamed of just doing it directly Gogol: i can't tell if this is genuinely hotter than fanon standard or if i'm just flipping the dynamic for novelty. w/e i guess Gogol: i do think this version is easier to reconcile with endgame maglor without completely unrolling him Emma: i just still love the rules lawyering of Emma: “listen we can just… WAIT" Emma: “maybe it’ll go AWAY" Emma: “the oath says not” it does sort of fucking imply that though maglor. Emma: you big desperate baby Gogol: y es Gogol: … i don't know. the problem is i like their last convo so much AS like, the first conversation they've had in two hundred years, it's hard to game that for a substantive prior relationship, even though i know they must have done THINGS Emma: ... Emma: is it though Emma: remember that the other convo we have for them is “isn’t that a silmaril” “you know i’ve been meaning to mention to you that i think that would be a good thing" Emma: "[crushing silence]" Gogol: lkJALkjdg Gogol: I MEAN IT'S NOT hard for me to PICTURE but then it's like Gogol: kind of a conversation… ender… in terms of… "what were they talking about and doing in bodega bay" Emma: yeah. Emma: tru. Gogol: i was going to say i kinda still am picturing barely-verbal maedhros in a LOT of contexts, just like, you know, whenever maglor's not looking/conscious, suddenly Gogol: "elros take his legs" Emma: you know what i also like is Emma: maglor and maedhros— well they wouldn’t intend it anyway because like, intending things takes too much effort Gogol: WAY too much effort Emma: but not being aware of how… childlike elrond and elros are Emma: and how much they’re asking of them Emma: because, peredhil. Gogol: oh yeah absolutely lol Emma: so, elrond and elros like, Growing Up Fast in a way that they both assume is their elvish heritage Emma: when actually it is just SUPER fucking human Emma: and elrond never ever figures it out, and elros does at age like 600 Gogol: also like, maedhros and maglor grew up in a household with seven kids..... Gogol: "unnecessary compounding misconceptions" the feanorion party game Gogol: also like. being frustrated with elrond and elros's developmental slowness in some areas and reassured by their accommodating intelligent 'maturity' in others :\ Emma: y e p Emma: i was going to say something about maglor’s almost-scientific curiosity as to their human heritage Emma: shared with the kids Gogol: UH HUH. elrond like, oh good, i………. fooled him into thinking i'm competent another day…. Emma: tomorrow is another opportunity to keep doing that! Emma: joke’s on you you get 2000 more years Gogol: LMAO Gogol: GOD. ELROND. WHY DID HE NOT MAKE NARN ARWEN AH ARAGORN CANON Emma: i know poor child Emma: this is one reason i’m super enamored of celebrian who grew up with the exact opposite pressures Emma: a mother who just assumed that she would never grow out of being 30 and biddable Gogol: i overseriously don't know that i would say OPPOSITE pressures but also: yes and i love them Gogol: by which i just mean like, biddability prized in both cases but. functional vs decorative Gogol: but it's not like maedhros and maglor wanted elrond and elros to be ADULTS Gogol: just, USEFUL children Gogol: whereas galadriel probably wishes celebrian were more impressive but at the end of the day has to admit she likes celebrian's mild patience best of all. they're both being very understanding of each other she feels Emma: oh my fucking god Emma: yeah. Emma: why are there people who don’t want dirtbag galadriel Gogol: nooooo ideaaaaa