Tumgik
#if anyone tags this saying its queerbait: just let me be delusional ok
cottoncandysprite · 1 year
Text
Tumblr media
Can't stop thinking about them (I'm only on season 3 but I love this show so far)
385 notes · View notes
firelxdykatara · 3 years
Text
gods, ok, apparently i’m not done.
atla fandom? we need to have a chat.
(....ok that made me sound pretentious as fuck. and maybe i am, but this needs to be said, cause i’m getting....real, real tired of a Certain Corner of this fandom and as a result, this is gonna be a discourse-heavy post so feel free to scroll past if that’s not your bag. as always, my salt posts all carry the catch-all #salt for ts tag, which you’re free to blacklist/filter at your leisure. i’m Very Annoyed at the moment, which will probably come through in the following post, so just. yknow. be prepared for that. or ignore it, that’s perfectly valid too.)
under a cut bc i do care for my followers and their sanity i swear lmao
there’s a real serious issue in this fandom with not understanding what queer terminology actually means or implies, especially when applied to a fictional narrative.
i’m specifically talking about ‘coding’, here. (if i were in a more meme-y mood, i might have said ‘the atla fandom found out about the term “gay-coding” and haven’t shut up since’.)
to the people who say ‘zuko is gay-coded’, i have this to say: you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means. because he isn’t. i’m sorry, but he’s not! and the fact that this is such a prevalent claim in this fandom is distressing, bc it says to me that none of y’all know what gay-coding is or when and how to apply it! please, i’m begging you, go and look up these terms and what they mean and when they should be used before actually trying to plug them into your critical analysis, because when you misuse them and then call other people delusional for disagreeing with you it casts a pall over the entire fandom and is, i think, the root of some of the worst toxicity this fandom has to offer.
and the thing is, there are cases where gay-coding would apply--for instance, a couple series that are famous for queerbaiting their audience by coding their main characters as being attracted to one another (sometimes even despite their openly stated sexualities) come to mind, but those shows bare no similarities at all to atla and how zuko was written and portrayed! (and it would be funny, if it weren’t so obnoxious and infuriatingly wide-spread throughout the fandom, because the only queer couple we actually seen on-screen in either show wasn’t even queer-coded in any respect, and they’re canonically bi! [yes, i’m shading korrasami, or more accurately i’m shading bryke for refusing to give ka the build-up and development they deserved].)
this absolutely isn’t to say that headcanoning zuko as gay is a bad thing or invalid in any respect. (although the tendency for zukka shippers to do this specifically to keep zuko away from katara and/or invalidate his canon relationship/attraction to girls is more than a little eyebrow raising. especially since sokka is usually allowed to be bi, bc fans have no problem letting sukka stay in the background bc it’s no real threat, while jetko shippers are happy to have both boys be bi. [possibly bc katara is less a threat to jetko bc jetkotara is every bit as valid as any single ship between the three, but zukka can’t exactly let katara join in, and if the potential exists for zuko to be attracted to her then canon giving them the far deeper emotional bond becomes a threat to zukka’s existence? idk for sure--you be the judge.]) i prefer to hc zuko as bi (and always have, long before the atla renaissance), bc i don’t think zuko being attracted to boys is outside the realm of possibility, and it isn’t a threat to my ship since zuko&katara had a deep and emotional bond in canon that is very easy to develop further into something that becomes explicitly romantic--but the headcanon itself isn’t really the problem (although what it’s often in service to can be).
it’s the strange insistence that this is the only way to read his character, bc he was coded that way and so anyone who doesn’t see it must be too straight to understand--and i really shouldn’t have to say why and how that is so incredibly fucking insulting. (the ‘hetero lenses’ comment wasn’t cute when it came from bryke six years ago, and the same sentiment being repackaged and delivered by zukka shippers ain’t cute now.)
calling zuko gay-coded not only demonstrates ignorance as to what the term actually means, and how to usefully apply it in critical analysis, but also validates the frankly bullshit insertion of institutionalized homophobia in the world of atla where it was neither needed, nor wanted, nor ever hinted at in canon. as a queer woman i’m still infuriated by one fucking comic panel shoving institutionalized and systemic homophobia into a world where it was entirely unnecessary (and doing this in the first installment of the franchise showcasing a queer relationship??? making korra and asami worried about ‘coming out’ when they could have just gone on to have cute adventures together and tell people ‘hey we’re dating’ and have everyone else be ‘that’s awesome =DDD’ [because it is, in fact, possible to just have a world without homophobia i promise!!!!!] double yikes, i’m still pissed at bryke about it), and i doubly hate that ‘zuko is gay coded’ has become so widespread that ‘ozai hates him bc he’s gay’ has become a staple in that part of the fandom.
not only does making zuko gay and implying (or outright stating) that ozai hated and abused him because of it completely undermine zuko’s character arc by making his abuse about his sexuality rather than ozai’s toxic pride and anger at seeing himself reflected in his ‘weak’ son, but it comes very close to outright stating that abuse and trauma are inherently gay experiences, and they aren’t!!! they really aren’t, i promise!!!
abuse and trauma narratives exist outside of ‘my dad hates me because i’m gay’. and, quite frankly, there are MORE THAN ENOUGH queer trauma narratives out in the world. we do not need to start trying to retroactively make them canon in a series where they didn’t exist! if you’re gay and see yourself in zuko and project your own experiences on him, that’s understandable and valid. that does not make zuko gay-coded. and honestly, the insistence that he is makes very little sense to me, because you’re essentially trying to give the show credit for work you put into interpreting the characters! why would you want to do that? why not own your own headcanons and take credit for them, rather than insisting they are canon and everyone else is wrong for not seeing them??? like, i’ve said before that i’ve always headcanoned zuko (and katara) as bi, and even support it with my interpretations of evidence from the show, but the difference between ‘i think zuko is bi’ and ‘zuko is definitely gay-coded’ is that i know that bi zuko is my interpretation of canon, and that it is work i’m putting into the show that wasn’t actually intended by the creators/writers, no matter how much sexual tension i read into the jetko swordfight.
and like, zuko’s character arc doesn’t actually parallel a queer one all that well to begin with. it’s easy enough to do the work and twist it sideways just enough to make the general points fit, but the fact is, zuko’s arc is not one of self-discovery. it’s not one of coming to understand something fundamental about himself that he can’t change, that he was hated for, and coming out to his father in a dramatic confrontation where he shows that he understands himself and doesn’t need his father’s acceptance to be fulfilled.
zuko’s arc is actually one of trauma and healing. and those can (and often are--like i said, there are more than enough queer trauma narratives in the world, atla really doesn’t need to be one of them) be part of queer narratives, for sure! but they aren’t uniquely queer. and zuko’s confrontation with ozai during the eclipse doesn’t read like a ‘coming out’ at all. (yes, i’ve seen that post. yes, i rolled my eyes and moved on, bc unlike some people, i’m capable of not clowning on correctly tagged posts i disagree with.) zuko is specifically confronting ozai over his abuse, because his arc wasn’t about discovering anything fundamental about himself (and therefore realizing that ozai was hating him for something he couldn’t change)--it was about realizing that he was not at fault for the way his father treated him. it was also about realizing that the fire nation was broken and corrupt at its core, and that his father was an aspect of that he needed to break away from so that he could help the world begin to heal.
he says it himself:
Zuko: No, I've learned everything! And I've had to learn it on my own! Growing up, we were taught that the Fire Nation was the greatest civilization in history. And somehow, the War was our way of sharing our greatness with the rest of the world. What an amazing lie that was. The people of the world are terrified by the Fire Nation. They don't see our greatness. They hate us! And we deserve it! We've created an era of fear in the world. And if we don't want the world to destroy itself, we need to replace it with an era of peace and kindness.
making this about zuko being gay and rejecting ozai’s homophobia, rather than zuko learning fundamental truths about the world and about his home and about how there was something deeply wrong with his nation that needed to be fixed in order for the world to heal (and, no, ‘homophobia’ is not the answer to ‘what is wrong with the fire nation’, i’m still fucking pissed at bryke about that), misses the entire point of his character arc. this is the culmination of zuko realizing that he should never have had to earn his father’s love, because that should have been unconditional from the start. this is zuko realizing that he was not at fault for his father’s abuse--that speaking out of turn in a war meeting in no way justified fighting a duel with a child.
is that first realization (that a parent’s love should be unconditional, and if it isn’t, then that is the parent’s fault and not the child’s) something that queer kids in homophobic households/families can relate to? of course it is. but it’s also something that every other abused kid, straight kids and even queer kids who were abused for other reasons before they even knew they were anything other than cishet, can relate to as well. in that respect, it is not a uniquely queer experience, nor is it a uniquely queer story, and zuko not being attracted to girls (which is what a lot of it seems to boil down to, at the end of the day--cutting down zuko’s potential ships so that only zukka and a few far more niche ships are left standing) is not necessary to his character arc. nor does it particularly make sense.
(and before anyone brings up his date with jin--a) he enjoyed it when she kissed him, and b) he was a traumatized, abused child going out on a first date. of course he was fucking awkward. have you ever met a teenage boy????)
anyway, uh, that was a lot of words, so have a tl;dr: zuko is not gay-coded. there is nothing uniquely gay (or even uniquely queer) about his character arc or characterization, and he was certainly not coded gay in an attempt to sneak a queer character past the censors. if anyone involved with atla was gonna try that, it would’ve been in lok, and as established, they didn’t even manage to queer-code the actual queer relationship before the last few minutes of the final episode. headcanoning zuko as gay is absolutely fine (though if it’s only done to keep him away from female characters he may otherwise be attracted to, that smells more like misogyny than anything else), but insisting that this reading is the only one that makes sense, and anyone who doesn’t agree must be straight (hello, queer woman here making this insanely long thinkpiece) is very much not.
ship what you like, but stop trying to invalidate other ships and other interpretations of characters just to make your ship seem more plausible. it’s really not a good look.
289 notes · View notes
go-diane-winchester · 5 years
Text
Why destiel shippers should not speak about destiel endgame?
@the-winchesters-ruined-my-life asked the following question.
Tumblr media
Thank you for the ask.  A short while back, my prim and proper side, would have responded diplomatically that its a merely ship, an artistic platform, and therefore does not warrant any hate from most level headed people.  However, I have to realize that even art activates the tolerance threshold.  I used to read destiel slash out of curiosity.  There are many more like me who dipped their toes in the destiel cesspool, only to recoil in disgust when they realized that it was probably going to give them gangrene.  Destiel was a sweet little ship, once upon a time, until things dramatically changed for the worst.  Most people who ship destiel are extreme by design because that is how the meta writers designed their thinking.  Non heller fans contradict each other.  I don't see that with hellers.  Some upper echelon hellers says something and these fans just accept it without question.  Take for example, the following post, recently penned by @anti-anti-destiel, lamenting the impending end of SPN.
The first flaw, is the OP's name.  They are glitching the tags with a name like this.  Everything and everyone has an anti tag.  What makes destiel so special that it must never have an anti tag?  That is manipulative and delusional because nothing will disappear just because you wished it away.  People that are going to despise destiel are growing, whether OP sticks her head in the stand or not.   
Anyway, here is the post, which I edited where necessary and italicized.  My responses are in bold. 
....Season 15 will be the last, with another 20 episodes.
There has been talk about queerbaiting in the past, and whether or not SPN will go down in history as a show with a slow-burn queer romance, or whether it will be forever known as the most queerbaiting show in existence.
This is why non-destiel fans get infuriated.  If there are any ''good'' destiel fans out there, why don't they tell this entitled princess to stop ruining the reputation of a show that has genuinely made people happy?  SPNFamily is very ironic when you want to tear apart a show that gave made you smile for 14 seasons.  This alone makes me wonder if there are any ''good'' destiel shippers out there.  The other hot topic is that of queer baiting.  Notice how queer baiting is NOT up for debate.  I have seen the master list of ''proof'' that SPN is queer baiting.  The parallels, metaphors and prop analysis are extremely insulting to adult human intellect.  Performing Dean is perhaps the most biphobic concept I have ever come across.  There is a reason these meta writers don't want their head canon's discussed because they know that people with logic with wipe the floor with them.  I can almost picture Jensen bursting into laughter if he ever read that master list.  It is that nonsensical.  The meta writers claim they are being queer baited, and everyone believes it.  Nobody questions the writers.  Why? 
All the cards will be on the table in the writers’ room.
Dabb is destiel friendly.
Bobo is destiel friendly.
Davy is destiel friendly.
Steve is destiel friendly.
Meredith is destiel friendly. 
Buckner and Ross-leming are ???
Singer is ???
When a meta writer writes something like this, how come low level destielers don't ever question her?  Why not ask her:  if Dabb and gang are destiel friendly, then why is it that Cas didn't even get invited to 300th episode family dinner party?  They practically forgot about him.  BuckLeming are NOT destiel friendly, because Leming [along with Misha] claimed that an episode with a turning point was coming up.  Turns out there was no turning point.  Leming and Misha were just making a mockery out of the destiel fans.  Why is it that Leming was called out for that lie and NOT Misha? 
And why is it that the most important people in this equation are always left out?  Both Jensen and Jared have said time and again, that destiel is not part of SPN canon.  How come they get left out?  Do you think their opinion doesn't matter?  And if it doesn't, then why is that?  I would really like to know. 
Other numerous cast and crew are destiel friendly. And before someone starts, regardless of previous statements, Jensen is more friendly to the idea than you may think.
Why don't any of the destielers ask this meta writer HOW she knows that Jensen is friendly to destiel?  One fool told me that Jensen told her during a photo op that he was OK with destiel.  But yet he says on stage that destiel doesn't exist.  Now, why would he do that?  What makes these idiots think that Jensen is two-faced or spineless.  This meta writer said it, and everyone believed it.  Not a single person decided to cross-examine her regarding her claims.  Jensen doesn't like destiel.  He destroyed the only panel he shares with Misha.  I think getting death threats from hellers did it.  I don't blame him. 
Our main barrier is convincing Pedowitz and the Network Powers that be that it should happen.  Fandom has campaigned, tulpa’d, prayed, begged, etc. We will know by May, 2020, what the decision will be.
So she wants to rally a bunch of delinquents to annoy and aggravate TPTB.  And what fandom is she talking about.  There are many fans who HATE destiel, because of Jensen's death threats, as well as arson, kidnapping and vandalism threats.  Ordinary fans of SPN are fed up of destiel meta writers speaking up for every one of us.  The destiel fans are only a subsection of the overall fan base.  We would prefer if they didn't speak for us all.  Pedowitz has already acknowledged only J2 as the leads and TPTB has told them that the show will go for as long as they want.  So TPTB are acknowledging the leads opinions.  Neither of the actors are going to say yes to destiel. 
We have seen the hints in Dabb’s era, where it could go. He is ON BOARD, people. Whether you want to believe it or not. It’s so close to being fully textual canon. 
What did she see in the Dabb era?  Cas admiring Dean's looks?  No, he admired Sam's looks.  Dean telling Cas he loved him?  No, he said that to Sam.  Dabb is giving every other pairing its day in the sun, but not destiel.  Why is that?  I think it has something to do with the reputation destroying queer baiting accusation.  This person is fooling you in order to stay relevant.  I can tell you now, there are personal stakes involved in shipping.  In order to stay popular and relevant, meta writers will spin mile long yarns.  Meta writers are like a step up from a slash fic writer.  In a weird way, they are revered without any merit or qualification.  That is how gullible the destiel fan base is.  They never probe a claim.  And they never just enjoy their ship.  Everything has to be about canon destiel, ship wars [their latest victim is sastiel] and they never acknowledge criminal threats.  Being loyal to them means that you are popular with the bad crowd.  Let that sink in. 
So while some may be preparing for the eventual let-down, it is completely acceptable to keep the faith. If it doesn’t happen, it won’t be the fault of writers, cast, or crew.
Oh, no it will be the fault of the meta writers, like this joker, and Misha Collins.  Misha has actively queer baited his fans for ten years.  Its funny how Jensen is the bad guy for saying that destiel doesn't exist, but Misha is such a kidder if he says anything destiel and even cockles friendly.  Misha Collins is the only person on the cast, crew and writers who actively and vocally pushed destiel consistently for ten years.  So much so that he ignored sastiel.  He changed that at Nashcon for reasons unknown.  If you want to lash out at anyone for destiel not being canon, please go ahead and lash out at Misha.  The only one who gave you any hope was Misha. 
In conclusion:  I have only met one destiel shipper [receipt on my blog], who acknowledged that destiel shippers were becoming ghastly and that Misha was egging on the troublemakers.  She admitted that she didn't approve of his behavior.  Other than her, I have not come across another.  Other than this one person, nobody else deserves my empathy.  When SPN ends without destiel being canon, prepare for the hellers being mocked by all and sundry, due to all the many enemies they earned for the threats, attacks on J2 and the vandalism.  No one will feel sorry for them, because they ruined this fandom.  Remember, Destiel is not a religion.  Loving and believing it is not a prerequisite for being an SPN fan. 
Excuse the typos. 
28 notes · View notes