#lucas and dustin don't because they showed interest in girls from the start of s2 when they both hd crushes on max

[uris-stanley]

mike's "we're not kids anymore" line and his whole attitude to will in s3 is so ironically funny because he was the Exact Same Way in s2, which takes place less than a year earlier

mike wanted nothing to do with girls in s2, he just wanted to be hang out with will and the rest of the party and got so upset when lucas and dustin wanted to invite max

it's only when el gets back (aka the person he had traumatic experiences with, the first girl who ever treated him nicely and someone he literally saw die in order to save his life) that he suddenly cares about girls again.

it's like, is it just him growing up like he claims? or is it maybe because he's formed trauma bonds with el and is throwing himself into a romantic relationship (and trying to act all mature and not like a child) in order to try and escape that trauma, and pretend everything's okay?

[eightfifteen]

what I find interesting about the core 4 is that they're introduced to us through the absence of Will.

We get the first scene where we get a feel for the group dynamic and how they all interact with one another, but from that point on, we're introduced to Mike, Lucas, and Dustin's personalities through how they react to Will going missing.

Dustin

Dustin is the curious, optimistic and smart one - trying to a, pretend it's not happening or not as bad as it seems (getting into semantics about Mirkwood, getting caught up in El being a girl, joking at the funeral) and b, by trying to take control of the situation (always smartmouthing, getting snappy about the compasses etc). This amps up the more shit happens - he gets closer to Steve because they can joke around, he starts getting snappier and more know-it-all-y (as steve and eddie point out), and kind of disappears when shit starts happening again by getting caught up in other things/distracting himself (focusing on Max in s2, getting caught in the russian mystery in s3, etc).

Hell, even his girlfriend is long-distance and not involved in any of it so he can escape Hawkins by talking to her. Also reflected by them singing neverending story in the s3 finale like they aren't battling a huge gore creature. This is why next season is going to be so interesting, because this time, Dustin saw Eddie die. There's no escaping that anymore, the horror caught up with him and it's going to be so interesting to see how he's going to cope with that now.

2. Lucas

Lucas on the other hand, gets frustrated and angry. He just wants things to go back to the way they were so he's really focused on getting Will back and wants to get it over with as quickly as possible - snapping at Dustin when he tries to derail the conversation, getting annoyed at the El drama when they just need to find Will, etc. He matures the quickest through all of this, I feel, which is also why he's the quickest to let go of DnD, tries to find himself through other interests like basketball etc. He can't pretend it isn't happening, but he's trying to right everything as quickly as possible. He actively fights back against it.

Caleb mentioned in the s4 aftershow that Lucas' happy ending is if none of it had ever happened so his happy ending is just finding a place for it and being able to move on - and i think that just perfectly encapsulates Lucas. Like, obviously that would be the best for everyone, but Lucas specifically is already trying to let everything that happened behind him as quickly as possible. He gets a girlfriend and wants to grow up quickly, just like Mike except successfully, and in s4 he tries to reinvent himself in High School, leaving all the trauma behind as much as he can. Which is also probably why he struggles with being there for Max at first, before realizing that he'd rather go through the horrors again than lose Max. Really excited for tired and fed-up Lucas next season.

3. Mike

Just like we get to know Dustin and Lucas through Will's disappearance, because that really is just the center of the show, we learn about Mike.

We immediately see that he's the most quiet and withdrawn one while learning about Will's disappearance, while also being the one to realize he's not at school in the first place. He's really trusting to the point it's naive, but he also gets frustrated easily especially when distraught (as we also see in s2 with Max while he's missing El). He's so stubborn, especially when it comes to his friends. He clearly 'gets into his own head' (Finn's own words) a lot, and especially in these moments of tragedy (like during the police interview, after finding Will's 'body', in the hospital, immediately after El disappeared etc).

As soon as he actually has something to do, like find Will in the woods or use El's powers to save him, that's when he thrives and takes on this leader role. Which is in my opinion, another reason why El and Mike don't really go together, and why Mike will always feel useless or like he's not getting it right - when he's with El, she's the one in control, she's the one fighting, and he just has to stand to the side. He can't break out of his own head.

But when it's Will, even though he can't actually do anything, he can still be there for him and help in meaningful ways just by being there. He knows Will needs him and he knows how to be there for him, and that's when his mind is clearest. Even in s4 we see that - he's blinded when he's with El, can't do it right, doesn't know what's going on, but when it comes to Will, he immediately finds clarity and knows how to talk to him and open up about how Will is feeling but also how he is feeling.

4. Will

Similarly, we learn about Will through his absence. We learn that he's open and genuine, that he's smart and strong and happy. The group is out of balance without him, and we can tell that Will used to be their mediator (confirmed in s2 during the argument about Halloween costumes). He's unafraid to talk about what he likes with the group and to be himself, even if the group doesn't agree (that 'weird song' that he likes, begging to play DnD even though Lucas and Mike clearly don't want to, etc). And we learn that Mike used to have a more caring role towards him, that he was the focus of Mike's need to care and watch over and protect, as this hole gets filled the moment they find El.

4. Season 5 - the return to core 4

I'm really excited to see the core 4 in season 5, because it will be the first season (not counting the battle of starcourt) where they're all working together. the group has always been split, so it's going to be really interesting to see how they all get along together. Especially now they've all changed so much.

[thestobingirlie]

To me, episode 1 Eddie is a very different character to Eddie in the rest of season 4. It almost feels like that they started writing two different characters, then realized they didn't need two characters and smashed them together instead of properly rewriting it into one character.

In ep1 Eddie is an asshole. He's rude, he's mean. The only person he's not a dick to in that episode is Chrissy. The whole talk he did on the lunch table, criticizing anyone who enjoys any part of what he calls 'conformity', even people that may be outcasts in general, like he criticized people in band, or people that like science. Two groups of people that often aren't exactly popular in high school, and often experience bullying. He was a dick to Lucas by not cancelling. He was an asshole to Dustin and Mike because they asked to postpone the campaign for Lucas. He was an asshole to Erica because she was a younger girl who was interested in playing dnd. (Tbh, in ep1, Eddie felt a little racist to me. Because the two characters he was the biggest asshole to were the two main black characters in the show. Maybe it's not the massive outward racism, but it felt like he let a racial bias influence his actions. Almost like how in S2 for Halloween Mike expected Lucas to be the black character from Ghostbusters.)

But in the rest of the season he's written as this good, sweet guy who could do no wrong. As if there's no valid way he could be a suspect, and that everyone is out to get him because they don't like him. That he is constantly being wronged, and targeted for no reason. Or that he's mirroring Steve's role with the kids.

And I like Eddie, so this isn't written as a criticism of the character, it's a criticism of the writing.

yeah i totally agree. i think it’s because they wanted the bonding element of steve&dustin, but they also needed him and dustin super close right off the bat so that dustin would look for him, and it just kinda came out clunky.

it made eddie’s consistent characterisation non-existent. and just made me… not really care about eddie&dustin.

i think it’s also because they wanted to show eddie at odds with the rest of the school, they needed to show why the town would be so willing to accept him as a murderer. but then they also wanted him to be a total victim, and again, the two things just clashed.

it’s pretty sad, because i found eddie in the frist episode pretty interesting. or at least an interesting addition to the cast. but then the duffers kinda just made him into a steve 2.0 so we’d be sad when he died and… i don’t know. i guess i just struggled to connect with his character like that.

[paintingformike]

I got really curious after one of your latest posts about your thoughts on bi mike vs gay mike. what's your main evidence for bi mike?

personally, I was a bi mike truther until I started my latest st rewatch a week ago. I always thought that mike had a genuine crush on el in season 1 but this time I noticed that mike didn't really show any romantic interest in her until lucas pointed out that mike likes el. before that, it was just mike being his friendly and caring self. and idk, every romantic moment between them seemed so forced to me, like mike was just doing what he thought he was supposed to be doing. and yeah, that whole dialogue before their first kiss was also weird. I haven't started season 3 yet, so maybe there will be some moments that'll show that mike is bi but for now, my only evidence of him being bi is byler/rockie parallels because vickie is clearly meant to be bi. I'm just so confused now, honestly, because I was so sure that mike is bi before this rewatch lol

sorry if some of these sentences don't make sense, my English is really bad...

nooo anon dont worry about your english, you’re perfectly understandable! to me personally i do see them portraying mike having genuine (but shallow) feelings for el via the inherently romantic tropes applied to them in s1-s2 (getting interrupted, the tiny bit of tension between them and all that), but that’s it, and the way i interpreted the painting plotline also makes me believe he had a shallow infatuation for el, but i’ve read a lot of gay mike analyses that have made me reconsider my stances on his sexuality and the byler storyline.

the byler/rockie parallels are also strong evidence of bi mike (and byler getting together in general) but it’s not really enough for me to discount the possibility of gay mike in the show considering a lot of points that make me believe they might go that route are narrative choices for his character. one example being the way he only showed interest in el after it was pointed out to him by other people, like you said, the stark contrast in how they make lucas and dustin show interest in multiple women but little to nothing from mike in comparison, they’ve also made him mirror will in this aspect (the way they both react to max in s2 compared to lucas and dustin).

season 3 was the most “i’m just doing what i think i’m supposed to do in typical het romantic relationships” season for mike because...he really was just being coached around by lucas constantly, looking totally clueless without him and most of his actions just him trying to adhere to societal expectations like getting his girlfriend a gift (?) and just. not initiating anything himself out of genuine love for el, he really needed a third party to hold his hand through navigating his relationship 😭 also the byler fight in s4 and how he said “thats because shes my girlfriend will” emphasizing the status of their relationship instead of saying something more genuine like el being important to him so obviously he’d write her letters...the majority of it was just him putting up a performance.

tbh he can still be bi and conforming to whats considered “normal” and thats what i was always firm in, but it can also be that they’re trying to portray how he really has no clue how to act when it comes to girls because he just feels no attraction to them. like the reason he needs his hand held through his relationship with a girl is because as a gay man it was never meant for him from the start, and the reason he can’t tell her he loves her is because...it was always impossible for him to feel anything towards her. he didn’t realize it at first (he wasn’t even sure of the difference between platonic and romantic before they kissed) but by s4 he was fully aware he only felt platonic care for el and was scared of losing her if he was honest about his true feelings (which explains the desert heart to heart he had with will.)

the duffers (or any other person from the writer’s room) have watched shows that portrayed internalized homophobia and characters that dated women while being cloested gay men, such as dawson’s creek and eyewitness, so that’s another factor that makes me think they could be writing mike to be gay because they’ve already gotten ideas of what it’s like, they’re not completely clueless. anyway this got too long (sorry anon i got carried away asjdksj) but the bottomline is i think both bi and gay mike have equal chances of being canon and are strong contenders in their own right, and while i used to think they wouldn’t explicitly confirm his sexuality, i realized they basically have to because they also need to clarify in the plot the true nature of mike’s feelings for el throughout their relationship and if he ever really loved her or felt attracted to her, it goes hand in hand with his sexuality arc and they can’t really just brush this over without leaving some kind of gaping hole in the storyline. mike’s gonna have to express how he really felt about el throughout their relationship so yeah...those are my two cents 👍

[itsjustbyler]

"I didn't say it" "You didn't have to":

How the GA could have picked up Mike's sexuality/love for his best friend at the same time or even before Will's with the "Show, don't tell" direct choice.

(* I started this analysis a while ago and lost focus and since this is almost done, i decided to post this the way it is.

*This is probably going to have a lot of spelling mistakes, sorry

* This is not a character study and i will try not to talk about subtext, but what the show tell us using their action and what people say about them.

* Also, imo Mike is gay, but it's okay if you think he is bi or if you thing different than me, it's just my opinion)

S1:

Will

- We don't have a lot of Will and Mike together in this season from Will's POV here because he is not even there after all. But, when they are together, they show us that Will doesn't like to lie to Mike, even if this is about just a game.

- The only hint we have here about Will's sexuality is when Joyce tells Hopper that Lonnie used to call him homophobe slurs and Troy does the same. But, we can't have any conclusion about this by ourselves because Lonnie is suppose to look like a shity father and Troy is just a bully.

Mike

- The first interaction that we have between Will and Mike from Mike's POV, we have a shot focused on him smiling at Will. We have him saying goodbye two times without taking his eyes away from him: "bye Will", "see you Will".

- We are shown that Mike was 100% focused on Will the whole season. We are shown how Will's disappearance affected him more than the other members of the party. He is the one showed breaking down into his mother's arms crying after seeing Will's fake body. He is the one showed caressing Will's drawings after that. He is the one who recognize Will's voice and made a plan to find him even after seeing his "dead body".

- Mike is the only member of the party shown confronting Troy after he heard him saying homophobic things about Will. You can argue that Mike jumped off the cliff for Dustin but the situation is different. Troy was really going to hurt Dustin with that knife and he asked Mike to jump. Will wasn't even there when Mike confronted him, it was his choice.

- We are shown that every character who had seeing El thought she was a boy or that she was Will. We are shown that Mike doesn't show any romantic interest for her before Nancy and Lucas bring that up and he seemed very annoyed because of that. I'm fact, throughout the whole season she is associated with family members like sister or cousin.

- We are shown that Mike wants to use her as a weapon, a way to get Will back and he was going to let his mom take care of her after that. When he thought that she was lying about that, he was really pissed off with her and screamed "what's wrong with you" at her face. He only talks to her again when she proves that Will is still alive.

- When Mike talks to her about Snowball and doesn't know how to explain that she can't go as his sister because that's not who you should bring to that type of event, he kiss her. That is the first time we are shown that Mike doesn't know how to explain himself to El and he gets impulsive because of that. He promised to go with her. He once told to her that "a promise is something you can never broke" He meant it.

- Mike is the only member of the party who stays awake at the hospital waiting to see Will.

- Throughout the whole season, they chose to show us Mike's reaction to everything that involved Will. You can tell that for Mike, they friendship is different from the others.

- The only "tell" we have here is "Our son with a girl?" or the ambiguous "You see what happens, Michael?" but just as Lonnie, you can think that Ted is just a shity father.

S2:

Will

- Will is back. He is dealing with the UD stuff but this isn't the focus here.

- When Will is having his episodes, they show us that there is someone who aways break that connection: Mike. This happens more than once (outside the arcade, that Halloween night, during Mike's monologue), so it's not something that we should miss.

- They show us that for Will, their relationship is different for the other members of the party, because Will trust Mike to tell him about his episodes, to tell him about Dart, to tell him how his visions are and that everyone could be in danger.

- They show us Will screaming Mike's name when he find himself in the UD and when he was on the lab in pain. Mike is the one Will recognize while being possessed. He doesn't recognize Joyce, his own mother.

- They show Will looking at Mike expecting something (?) when a girl ask him to dance at snowball and he just go when Mike nods. He hesitated to dance with her.

- The "tell" isn't here for Will this season. He isn't being associated with homophobe slurs anymore.

Mike

- We are shown that Mike is paying attention to Will. Mike is the only member of the party that could tell that Will is quieter than usual. Mike is the only member of the party that is shown searching for Will when he is having his episodes.

- We are shown that Mike doesn't get why Lucas and Dustin are so into Max, even if she is the type of girl who likes EXACLY what they do like play games at the arcade. Mike doesn't want her around and he is pretty mad at everyone, including Will because he was in the Halloween night.

- Mike is the only member of the party who is shown asking Will all the time "What's wrong? Are you okay?"

- When Mike finds out about the shadow monster, Mike glued himself with Will. Will tell him that the mindflayer is dangerous. Will tell him that he wants to kill everyone. Mike chose to stay, he reassure Will that he is now a superspy and that they will not let him spy back.

- Mike is showed sleeping by Will's side, both at the Byers house and at the lab. Mike doesn't leave without Will even when he finds out that the monster in fact spying back and killing people.

- Mike is showed initiating all their physical contacts. He hold Will's hand, he put his arms around him, he aways put himself closer to Will.

- When Will had his episode at Halloween, Mike is protective and don't let the other members of the party touch him, saying that he will bring him home. Turns out that "home" is Mike's basement.

- We are shown that Mike is calling El everyday. He saw her, he heard her. He doesn't go after her. But hadn't we shown before Mike seeing Will's dead body and hearing him and going after him? Well, not this time. He think he is crazy.

- We are shown that the same way Will only trust Mike with what is happening on his mind, Mike only trust Will too. "Crazy Together", right? It's Mike's choice to go crazy together with Will.

- At snowball, Mike encourages Will to dance with Amanda and is showed suddenly changing his mood and staring at them for at least 30 seconds before Dustin bring his attention and El came to him. They dance and kiss.

- The "tell"? We have both show and tell together: Mike's monologue. He chose to say that words, nobody asked him for. He is shown crying, emotional, telling Will that ask him if he wants to be his friend was the best things he had ever done and looks like Mike was having that realization while talking.

S3:

Will

- Will starts the season really good in terms of hang out with their friends and their girlfriends. But there is something really bothering him about El's and Mike relationship, but we don't pay much attention because he is not the only one who seems mad at it.

- Mike and Will go to the movies together with Lucas and Max. Again, Mike break his connection with the mindflayer and we can see both having a mutual lip glance and blushing.

- It is shown that Will doesn't have any interest in having a relationship at all. All he wants to do is play DND with his friends to the point that he have a ugly fight with Mike because of that.

- Will is showed breaking down and ripping of a picture of the party, right in the middle where he stands with Mike, calling himself stupid. He then destroyed castle Byers with a baseball bat.

- After they defeat the mindflayer, Will moves to Cali, but not before a cute scene when he promises Mike to not join another party and they hugging two times. They show us that too.

- The "tell" here it's interesting. It comes from none other than Mike. "It's not my fault you don't like girls". We don't know if Mike said it because he was mad or because it's a fact. But this is going to be intertwined with Mike's, so...

Mike

- Mike starts the season making out with El. We are shown Mike putting El's hands away from his face. They doesn't talk at all, Mike starts to sing but El cuts him. They keep making out until Hopper steps in.

- Mike is showed pulling away from his friends, we are shown how frustrated Will, Lucas, Dustin and Hopper are with that. There is something difficulting him to balance his relationship and with his friends.

- At the movie theater, we have Lucas calling him out because of that. Still here, we are shown the mutual lip glance between him and Will and he blushed too after that.

- We are shown Mike's reaction to Dustin's girlfriend being compared to Phoebe Cates. Dustin seems to be really in love and talks a lot about her, Mike seems anoyed by that, like he doesn't really care at all.

- Mike lies to El and she dumped his ass. Mike seems angry, confused, anoyed but does nothing at all. We are shown him asking Lucas what did he do wrong, he asking for help, they going to search for a gift to apologize. Meanwhile, Mike starts pushing Will away. You can argue that he just doesn't want to play DND that time, but what comes next is the key.

- We are shown Mike and Lucas mocking Will. Will geting mad. Mike suddenly regretting when Will scream at him "just forget it". Will wants to leave. Mike doesn't want him to.

- They start an argument. Mike gets defensive because Will told him that he is ruining their party and doesn't care anymore for his friends. Will has a point and we know it because they show us Mike's reaction when he asks where is Dustin. After all, we are shown throughout the episodes that Will is right. But then, Will calls El stupid and Mike looses it. "It is not my fault you don't like girls". But wait, they already show us that Mike was there when Will was dancing with that girl at Snowball. There was a girl crying at Will's "funeral". Where did that come from? Whe should be asking yourselves because that line doesn't match with what are being shown from Mike's POV. Anyway.

- We are shown Mike asking Will if he really tought that they would spend the rest of their lifes playing DND without girlfriends. We never saw Will saying something like that, it came from Mike. And when Will said yes, he looks taken aback and hurt.

- We are shown Mike biking to Will's house in the middle of a storm and screaming at his door that he is an asshole and apologizing. Before, he asked Lucas help to apologize. Now, he is the one who brings Lucas here. Bonus point: we are shown Max saying that he is going to do this exacly same thing to El, but he did it for Will.

- We are shown that Mike doesn't know how to say ily to her or explain his feelings again. The only time when he said ily was when she wasn't there and he was being impulsive again. When she was right in front of him, the only thing he could do is say: "blank makes you crazy". But hey, we were shown Mike saying something like that in S2 right?

- We are shown that even after their fight, Mike was aways searching for Will's face, aways trying to be as close as possible. When Will tells Mike the Mindflayer is activated, Mike stares at Will for a while before properly scream to Max protect herself.

- When the Byers were moving, Mike is showed worried if Will could join another party (replace him). When Will say that it is not possible, Mike gives him a big smile.

- We are shown that Mike doesn't kiss El back and doesn't say ily back to her when she is leaving. He was with his eyes open, doesn't touch her, looks confused.

- The "tell"? We don't have this one for Mike here.

*Season 4 is going to have its own post if when I have time to do so because it's a lot or feel free to ad thing here and your opinion in this*

[korkiekenobiconfirmed]

Sidelines are for sports games, not characters of color

I want to address the somewhat awful job ST has done with its POC characters not just in Vol 2, but over the course of the show. I've done a similar post talking about the queer rep in the show if you want to check that out.

I'm gonna start with Lucas, who's been sidelined from the beginning. I get this is rural Indiana in the 80's and you wouldn't expect a whole ton of POC characters fine fine fine whatever. But if you're going to include exactly one (1) POC main, you better hope to god you do a good job with that character. Look at S1 -- Will was central to the plot in a major way (duh), Mike was huge in pushing everyone to find Will and was well-defined by his close relationship with him, and Dustin's intelligence set him apart even in a group full of so-called nerds. What did Lucas get to distinguish him in any particular way? Nothing much. Even moving into S2 his character remained distinctly less fleshed out than the others

One part of S1 I did very much like, however, was this scene. I thought it was a great way to address the kind of casual racism that people who grow up with privilege can often display, even unintentionally.

Mike and Lucas had both showed up to school dressed as the ghostbuster Venkman and Mike tried to argue that Lucas should be Winston Zeddemore. Lucas pointed out that Mike only said that because Zeddemore was black, and he didn't want to be Zeddemore because he, like so many black characters in film, wasn't as interesting or influential as many of the white mains.

Ironically, a similar fate ended up befalling Lucas. He began to be drawn more into the spotlight in S2 and S3, but it was more in reference to his relationship with Max than anything else. Listen, I love Lumax (their relationship outclasses Mileven by a mile, argue with the wall) but Lucas needing a relationship with a white character in order to gain real traction within the show and the fandom is pretty fucking shitty.

S4 finally put Lucas' character on par with the others in terms of screentime, lines, and fandom attention, and the Duffers managed this oh-so-impressive feat through the power of... basketball. Come on, I mean really?

Yes, from what we've seen basketball is the fastest path to popularity in Hawkins High (Steve, Billy, Tommy H, Jason) but to make the only black character suddenly a basketball star when he's shown zero interest or athletic ability up until now... it doesn't sit right with me, let's put it that way.

Erica falls into similar black stereotyping as Lucas. We see little development for her over the seasons and from the first moment she's on-screen she's very much the Sassy Black Girl. There's nothing wrong with characters displaying stereotyped traits as long as you can give them other characteristics that define them beyond the typical fallbacks. If your character is essentially reduced to that stereotype, however, it's a problem. All we know of Erica, beyond her never-ending supply of clapbacks and sarcasm, is that she likes DND and My Little Pony. 90% of her lines are full of sass, no matter who she's talking to, and while it's entertaining at times (her calling Murray a bald bastard was funny as hell lmaoo) it can quickly get old. Erica's not the worst black rep I've ever seen, not by a long shot, but the Duffers definitely could've done better with her.

[Having the only black female character also be a staunchly avowed capitalist feels a little weird to me, but I honestly don't have a way to properly articulate why so I'm not going to go into that rn. Maybe in a later post.]

Watching Vol 2 was a crazy fucking experience for a lot of reasons, but watching Jason and his little basketball cult fully beat up black kids significantly younger than them was... really something. A mostly-grown guy full on rugby tackling a middle school girl with aggression that far outweighed the situation...

You can't tell me there wasn't racial motivation there, but the situation really wasn't handled that way on-screen. It wasn't filmed to really make the audience think about the kind of aggressions (micro or otherwise) that black kids in bumfuck Indiana would experience. It wasn't addressed as racially-motivated. It wasn't addressed at all, actually. Thanks to the racist implications of that moment (and, in fact, the racist implications of Jason's entire attitude towards Lucas & Erica) never being addressed ever, the whole scene came across as more gratuitous violence than anything. I'm not saying the show needs to hold the audience's hand and look in their eyes and spell out J-A-S-O-N = R-A-C-I-S-T, but the S1 Zeddemore scene proved there are ways to intertwine talks about racism into the script, ways to address problems like xenophobia without making it stilted or shoehorned in.

When you show the brutal beating of black children and then move on too quickly for the audience to fully process what happened, it takes away from the heavier implications of such violence.

Moving on from the Sinclairs, we have Kali.

I liked her character very much, I'm going to be honest. The way she embodied El's angrier, more violent inner voices, with El's return to Hawkins representing her turning her back on that side of her while never truly facing up to it, made her an excellent lens for the audience to see more of El than what we got in S1.

But brown women in media too-often fall into one of two categories.

the docile, meek woman who comes from a patriarchal culture and will always defer to the men in her life, even when it goes against her own desires and dreams

The angry, probably violent woman who rages against the world because she has been wronged in the past

Again, a brown character being one of these two things isn't necessarily bad, but when we're left room for little else around all the resentment Kali's built up? When there's almost no middle ground between the two extremes?? Let's not rely on the old stereotypes over and over and over again, please.

...

...Did someone say stereotypes? Oh hang on wait it looks like we have another one. I once again feel the need to establish that this is not hate on the character himself, Argyle was legitimately one of the best parts of the California group and I love him with my whole entire heart (& also Eduardo Franco deserves so much better from this shitty fandom).

But the first Latine character on the show being a stoner? That's the best y'all could come up with?? Argyle was funny, he was useful to the plot, and he was a nice foil for the often-serious characters he's surrounded by, but all that being said, I couldn't quite get rid of the nagging irk in the back of my mind every time he was on screen because the stoner Latine character??? At this point, all the blatantly stereotyped characters just make this shit boring and predictable. I don't even have anything new to say about Argyle because it's nothing I didn't just address in terms of Erica, Lucas & Kali.

I feel like the treatment of ST's queer and POC characters is definitely different. We see constant abuse and mistreatment of queer characters without getting any outwardly, happily-queer endings for them; with the POC characters it strikes me more as the typical sidelining and stereotyping that we see in a lot of mainstream media. I'm not going to sit here and argue over which is worse or which is more harmful to audiences, they're both shitty and I'm tired of it all.

Do better.

[pappydaddy]

Ohh totally the writers regressed Steve's entire development to be solely Nancy's love interest again. His other relationships suffered so much, especially the one with Dustin. He seemed so angry with being paired up with him it was so ooc. Like it's actually criminal that we got a Eddie and Dustin hug before Steve and Dustin, like wth.

Even his relationship with Robin was watered down to push for Stancy. I still stand by the fact that Robin should have been the one who jumped in first to save Steve, but then Eddie wouldn't have given his true love speech to Steve later. And Robin actually pushing Nancy to persue Steve, while being Steve's bestie and probably knowing how fucked up he was after the breakup. The writers don't see heaven for this I'm afraid. Robin needs to talk some sense into him, like please.

I'm so mad at the writers, I hope they look through fan reactions and see that 80% of the fandom doesn't want this kinda shit. Plus it's so fucking unfair to both characters. Steve got rejected twice there at the end and he was clearly hurt, if he takes her back after all the shit Nancy put him through (cheating, calling him bs and making him insecure about his intelligence) what kinda message is this for his character? Like does he really feel so insecure about himself, so worthless that he doesn't think he deserves better??? Or worse if the writers kill him off for Nancy I'm gonna commit a crime if they do that.

And Nancy deserves an arc that isn't centered around guys, let her be single and move away to persue her dream career. Nancy won't ever be the perfect woman for Steve to carry his 6 kids, she said herself in season one. I fucking hate how they ended s4 with setting up Nancy cheating on Jonathan in s5 like she did with Steve in s2. Plus most likely not even facing any repercussions for her behavior because the show excuses any mistake so idk she gets a fee pass for anything really. I tried to like her but after s2 I just can't bring myself, the only scenes where I truly started to appreciate her more were the ones with Robin tbh.

My dream dynamics or hope for s5. Steve and Robin plus party all together fighting evil monsters. We deserve Steve and El interactions, Steve comforting Dustin and Lucas. Plus for once let him actually display feelings, I want to see him grieve Max and feeling guilty for not being the protector like he thought he was. Plus the arc I hoped for s4, realizing he doesn't need romantic love, he already has a family rn and that friendships can make you just as happy. Like I really thought for vol2 he would finally move on and come to that realization but instead we got a love confession.

Nancy and Jonathan can do their investigation shit, stay far away from the group like they always do every season and talk about their feelings like mature adults they claim to be. Like the Duffers talked about s1 pairings definitely Jancy was together for 80% of the time despite Nancy dating Steve so please just go back to that lol.

Sorry this was kinda long, but every time I see Stancy content or discussions I get once again so angry at like everything. We could have so much better but nope.

Obx anon

oh my gosh! it's great to see you again obx anon! how have you been lovely?

i agree with you full-heartedly! i loved nancy in season one and (a little less bc of the steve situation) in season 2, but in season 3 i liked her again because her storylines were something other than conflicted feelings for a boy. in season one, the writers were laying the seeds for nancy and jonathan (even tho they had jonathan take pictures of her???) so they had her dating steve as a way for her to break free of the good girl in the suburbs mentality. this is seen with her losing her virginity, going to the party, shotgunning, etc. they used the relationship with steve to give her character depth and create a change within her.

then in season 2 she ruined steve which allowed for steve's character growth. this growth had the kids involved with it. steve went from king steve to momma steve and that was because of the kids. even in season 3 when he only had dustin and erica with him, he was still momma steve. then he started chucking fireworks at the mind flayer and he was momma steve saving el because he had the kids.

there was no momma steve content in season 4. it was annoyed and borderline king steve content. i hated that scene where he tried to go with nancy and he was visibly annoyed that he had to go with dustin. like i was excited for some steve and dustin content - i look forward to steve and dustin content. on top of that, there was no robin and steve.

everything with steve was so ooc in season 4. i also hate how it seems like they are trying to make the viewers hate nancy. she doesn't seem to be someone who it whishy-washy, yet, every other season she is unsure of her relationship.

but, i did read natalia agreed that robin and nancy would be a good pair and that it would be cool to see that relationship. i feel like that would also explain why nancy seems to jump between steve and jonathan. she seems to be drawn to any guy that is showing any form of affection/romantic interest to her regardless of her relationship status. so, maybe (and i am just brainstorming here), what if she doesn't have romantic feelings towards steve or jonathan? what if she feels like because they like her and she is a girl and they are boys, she should like them and date them?

but, back to canon. i was also upset that there seemed to be no resolution in the two-day jump of any of this. nancy can break up with jonathan if she wants, but steve and her better stay friends. there was also no steve/dustin dynamic. or steve/robin dynamic other than steve seeing her talking to vickie. but i think seeing this shift proves how nancy and steve wouldn't work. (a) they want two completely different things in life like you pointed out and (b) they bring out the worst in each other.

tik tok seems to love stancy and i've had to hit not interested so many times bc it keeps showing me stancy content and i hate it. i feel much better on tumblr where there are so many people who agree with me about this. also, i saw someone on here say that hopefully steve admitting he saw nancy having his six-kids for the longest time was steve's way of saying 'i am finally getting over you and moving on and being happy'. but we really won't know until season 5 comes out (which i hope isn't long from now).

and don't worry lovely! i hate stancy so much too. it fills me with rage that people cannot seem to realize how bad they are for each other. i am also mad that they ruined steve's character (slightly) in this season and i hope they don't ruin it further.

[kurokoros]

You're a trooper for rewatching s4 I literally can't ever since vol2, it ruined the entire season for me for two reasons. One Max's outcome and two Steve regression to soley function as Nancy's boyfriend and not acting like his own character.

The Duffers need to stop treating Steve as only comedic relief and a human punching bag who pines after a girl who clearly never loved him. It would be way more interesting to see him interact with the kids. We've only been told oh Steve's our guy, our babysitter but it's never truly shown especially in s4. The way he was so annoyed with them, refusing to be with them just so he can trail behind his ex girlfriend who cheated on him in s2 was such a bad take and I'll forever be angry about it.

Steve is such a fantastic character stuck in a mediocre show who doesn't deserve complex characters. Like there were so many options for his character, explore more of Stobin, have them talk about other things than relationships. Explore what he wants to do with his future not just his love life. Explore how he feels about Dustin replacing him with Eddie, it's criminal we got a Eddie/Dustin hug before Steve and Dustin. Explore Lucas and Steve's relationship especially in terms of the concept of popularity and being passionate about basketball. Explore how he is dealing with Max, like you can't tell me he wasn't concerned about her when she isolated herself, not when he actually got a letter from her. I'm tired that we are only being told who Steve is but then it shows a Steve who is just love crazy. Steve could be so much more but nope the Duffers apparently hate him so much they have to let out their aggressions on him by brutally beating him up every season and never giving him anything to be happy about in the end of every season. Steve tries to be a better person but life always shits on him when he does, it's not fair.

Eddie was literally only there to start the plot, he was there to inform the characters what's going on in the beginning. He was just there to serve for Dustin's angst plot in s5. If he wasn't played by Joe Q. nobody would care that much, Argyle was more useful than Eddie but due to obvious reasons didn't get the same hype. I also hate how he literally overshadowed Max's "death", a character we spent years with. Like I don't get this hype, his death wasn't something worth to get out petitions to bring him back and it wasn't too bad of writing to kill him off that way. He got to be a hero, saving Dustin (maybe in another better way would have been nice) after doing nothing for the plot the entire season. That's more than what other side characters got. I do believe the Duffers always wanted him to die but didn't expect him to be this loved because of the actor.

As for Nancy I also agree she just makes me angry and one day I might make a post to explain why but I don't want to get canceled by the fandom lol.

The only reason I got through the final episodes is because I was watching with a friend and we were talking shit about the episodes the entire time. S4 is just not a good season for several reasons, but those last two episodes were pointlessly long and it genuinely felt like nothing even happened.

The stuff with Max was bad because it was forced drama done because the plot said so and not for any logical reason (why would Vecna go after Max, who knows how to escape him, when he can literally go after anyone as far as we the audience know? Why does he even need to psychologically torture them first? Drama? Who knows. Probably not the Duffers!) and they've been butchering Steve since S3, so I was disappointed but not surprised.

The Duffers treating Steve as a punching bag that constantly needs to be reminded that he was a normal level of dickish at 16-17 is just a result of them having a complex about nerds vs jocks. People who play sports = popular = bad person, even though the nerd characters are constantly condescending and also just as assholish as the non-nerd characters when it comes to people being allowed to have interests (Lucas and Steve liking/playing sports is devalued and seen as them chasing popularity, rather than a fun hobby--even though athletes are probably the most useful when going up against literal monsters, but whatever).

Honestly, I think the Duffers resent Steve for being one of the fan favorites, when he was meant to represent everything they disliked.

Regardless, yeah I don't care about Dustin and Eddie being besties in S4, I just wanted more of Steve interacting with Max and Lucas. Like, please Duffers I just want Steve and Lucas to talk and for Steve to tell Lucas it's okay to want to play sports and to not feel like he can't just because his friends are being assholes about it. Also, I need Nancy and Steve to stay six feet away from each other at all times. I do not wish to see it. If anything, I would have been okay with him wanting to go with Nancy/Robin if it had been framed as Steve needing to be on the front lines, so to speak, because he doesn't like being "on the bench." Or if he had been more torn between going with them or staying with the kids. Anything that wasn't "I'm sick of being the babysitter."

I don't think I responded to everything in this message, but I need to go to sleep and if I didn't answer this tonight, I'd forget to do so tomorrow lmao

TLDR: S4 is bad. Eddie was overhyped by the fandom. Steve deserves better.

[kaypeace21]

I don't get why people think that all the parallels between Mileven and Elliot/E.T. mean that they can't be romantic/endgame. E.T. is like the biggest inspiration for ST, of course they would parallel it, but not rewrite the same story! Here they could be switching the story up by having Elliot fall in love with "E.T.", who's a actually a (human) girl his age. It really doesn't prove anything about the future of the relationship that they made an hommage to E.T. scenes in S1.

lmao. you milevens are so in denial. I can’t. How many times must I repeat myself XD

El watches he-man in s1. In s2 Erica makes he-man and barbie kiss: “Hey , They’re in love!”Lucas (livid- and standing right next to a rainbow forcing them apart): “No, actually,  they’re not. they don’t even exist on the same planet.”  Mileven is not in love! Notice in s2 , that same season , Dustin also has he-man and et next to eachother as well (next to ghost buster toys).They said they made el dress like a ghost cause et did so- and then for the extra burn they made mike a ghost hunter/buster.

They’re as compatible as a ghost and a ghost hunter- a boy and an alien.

El and mike are compared to ET and Eliot -WHO AREN’T FROM THE SAME PLANET (by the Duffers in multiple interviews , in the pilot script, and illustrated in the show ) .Also when dustin in s1 says el is “like a wizard” (like Will.) Mike corrects dustin and says “more like yoda”. Really hammering down the alien references. And then there’s the  old euphemism of “girls come from Venus, and boys come from Mars”.  The Duffers saying mileven isn’t in love cause they’re not even from the same planet (aka the same gender) -is just them telling us Mike is gay so he can’t fall for El-who is a girl/diff species. They literally have Will say to Mike “welcome to my world” as a contrast. So El telling mike he should ‘stick with his own species’ (aka boys) is another gay hint. 

They showed Et/Barbie next to he-man, compared El to Et (who had a barbie-like makeover), had El watch he-man , so the next he-man ref of ‘not being in love’  cause they’re from different planets would connect in a more obvious way to mileven.  Same with Et next to the ghost trap and ghost busters sign (and El dressing as a ghost and Mike as a ghost buster-as an extra burn).And sorry ... who compares the girl they “crush on” with a green gross alien (yoda)?

- Mike thinking of El as alien-esque is hammered down again when they compare s1 mileven to s2 dart /dustin (a demo dog) , to further show how un-romantic it is. And how alien he sees her. Fin even said the duffers told him Mike saw el as a “puppy’ (right after s1).  Sharing sweets ( nougat vs eggos) for breakfast and saying they’ll have to wait for them to come home from school. saying they ‘promised’ to take care of them and that El/dart ‘trust’ them. Dart killing a cat and  El almost killing a cat.The crews thinking both El & Dart were bad guys and both end up running away because of that. Mike even admits in s1 he doesn’t like eggos and told El she doesn’t have to eat “like a dog” anymore. And mike annoyed, in s2 saying  “a bond? cause he likes nougat ?!” is dissing milevens who thought the ego thing was cute/romantic.  And all of those reasons is why El says in s3 angrily , “am I your pet?”

In s3,they even threw in Mike on the phone saying “EL? No not interested...telemarketers”  Flo in s1 says “only love makes you that crazy and that damn stupid.” El in s3: “more to life than stupid boys/ what makes you crazy? “ Then in s3 Dustin calls mileven “bullshit” aka just like stancy (Wheeler lying about being in love with partner, when secretly into a byers. Nancy verbally said “i love you” and kissed  Steve all the time- like mileven. That doesn’t equal love) . In s3, they even had steve say “Dustin was right . it’s bullshit.” She lied to her friends to kiss Mike, going against her “friends don’t lie “ mantra . And Mike never apologized for lying. And el never apologized for spying.  Mileven dances to a song about a stalking ex- El does so in s3. In s2 she watches a soap opera and mimics the character who does not end up with Mike Roy- and it ends with one of them stalking the other after the breakup and sabotaging their new romances. When El confesses to mike (and Mike doesn’t kiss her back or close his eyes) the ‘first i love you’ played- which was only played 1 other time: when steve got rejected by gay Robin. They even paralled mileven to Luke/leia. Finn in that same interview after s1 said Duffers told him mileven is like a “summer love” (aka ‘summer loves’ are flings that end in the summer). Like Max and Will said ‘ That doesn’t sound like a break/it’s not !” The list goes on and on

Move on ,you’re ship was never good. It’s a dumpster fire. The second she dumped him she started ogling  another boy in a magazine and had a dance party. Not like she has ever been in a normal social environment where there were more than 4 boys- to theoretically choose from  . Girl didn’t even know how to discern what (clothes) she liked or whether Mike was a good kisser (while already dating him for 6 months) . She didn’t even know what a state was at 14 years old (plus, literally didn’t know what Illinois was despite going there in s2). She only just learned how to tell time. She’s not ready for a boyfriend. 

Sorry mileven anon who keeps on spamming me . Enough is enough. Ship mileven if you want . But coming to my blog, spamming me -insulting my theories (didn’t share their other asks) just makes you look petty.