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ijustliketoreadstuff · 1 year

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Why it was different with Luka

Knowing what we know now from “Derision”, it makes sense why Marinette didn’t research Luka. Marinette already got to know who Luka was personally under normal means, and because he didn’t have any connection to Chloe, she didn’t need to be as cautious about him.

Back in “Silencer”, Luka had already proven himself to be more than trustworthy as he was someone who would not sit idly by as those with selfish intentions attempted to belittle and wrong her.

But what ultimately made Marinette realize that she did not need to fear a relationship with Luka, was learning that he was somehow always there for her when she had no one to turn to, such as in “Heart Hunter” when the stresses of both her hero and civilian life became to much for her to bare and prevented her from being more open about her struggles, who she was and how she felt. Somehow, Luka had a way of knowing when she was conflicted about something and would waste no time attempting to understand her and her situation before giving her advice no one else knew to give her, even being willing to take action if and when needed.

Granted, their relationship couldn't work out due to personal matters, but the major difference between her relationship with Luka and Adrien, was that she already got to know who Luka was, but she was still getting to know who Adrien was behind his fame, his rich status, the image of perfection companies advertised him as, and most of all, his friendship with Chloe.

For Marinette, there were things about Adrien that she already knew, but there were also things about him she realized she never knew, such as in "Risk" when she discovered how much he actually hated his life as a model.

Although she and Adrien want to get to know each other better, it was the fear of the unknown that made her wonder if Adrien really was the kind person she thought he was, or if he was just pretending to be nice to her so he could catch her off guard later, like how she thought Kim was only nice to her in the beginning to go along with Chloe's plans later. Despite knowing Adrien loved her and would not intend to bring her any harm, there was still a part of her that couldn’t help but doubt it all and wonder if she was actually good enough for him, after all, if she wasn’t good enough for Kim to hold in higher regard than Chloe, the girl who he favored all along, then how could she be so sure that she was good enough for Adrien(the rich and famous model) to consider over the word of his childhood friend, who was also Chloe.

Back in "Sand boy, when we discover Marinette's greatest Nightmares was learning that Adrien was in love with Chloe, we only ever assumed it was natural for Marinette to feel this way, but looking back on things now, her fear of Adrien being potentially in love with Chloe had stemmed from her hidden fears of reliving her past mistake of allowing herself to love someone else so easily without being more cautious.

The level of trust Cat Noir built with Ladybug, is why Marinette was able to accept Adrien’s affection in “Ephemeral”, because no matter what Marinette feared, she was at least able to find comfort in knowing that Adrien really was always there for her and would always be there for her. But with the two of them together now, without knowing each others identities, things are different. Marinette needs time to accept that being with Adrien is nothing to fear, and Adrien in turn was more than willing to be with her through every step of the way.

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buggachat · 1 year

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I genuinely love all the memes about Adrien attempting murder because it IS really funny, but just in case not everyone's on the same page, I do think it's worth pointing out that Chat Noir has both been cataclysmed himself, and is also aware that Monarch has been living with cataclysm for the past few weeks/months/whatever. Chat Noir is aware that cataclysm is extremely painful, and (accurately) fears that it might have lasting irreversible consequences (his horror at Monarch not being healed), but I don't think he's under any impression anymore that cataclysming someone will kill them. At least, not in any immediate way, and not when Ladybug will surely miraculous ladybug them back to health right away (I mean, cataclysming someone will pretty much ensure they win the battle, so it's a safe bet they'll be healed).

Like, it's still fucked up. It's cruel and unusual and unnecessary and extremely painful. It's not heroic behavior, but it's not technically a murder attempt. More like a... torture attempt if anything :-)

All that being said, Let Adrien Commit Murder (again) 2023

#ml spoilers #ml s5 spoilers #derision spoilers #ml derision #his kill count of 7 billion isn't high enough. it needs to be higher.

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nedjsmlfavs · 1 year

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So Derision Broke Me…

Derision (Miraculous S5E14) made some choices that fundamentally broke Marinette’s character for me to the point where I’m having trouble motivating myself to keep writing for this fandom. I figured I’d write down my thoughts and see if that helped me get into a headspace where I can ignore this episode like I do any other writing choices I’m not fond of. If anyone has some words of wisdom, I'd love to hear them.

In Derision, we learn that Marinette has some serious trauma surrounding love. When she was 13, she confessed her love to Kim and was rewarded with a box full of spiders. This “prank” understandably left her traumatized and shaken to her core. In response to that trauma, she vowed to never confess her love to another boy. Not unless she knew everything about him.

This “prank” and several others are revealed to be the fault of Chloé. As for why she’s doing this, well, we’re never given a reason why Marinette is the target. However, we are told the motivation for Chloé’s actions. Rose blames them on the fact that Chloé was abandoned by her mother. Mylène responds to this observation by pointing out that she was also abandoned by her mother, but that didn’t turn her into a bully! Which is a fair point. People react differently to trauma and trauma doesn’t justify bad behavior or undo the effects of those bad behaviors. At the most, trauma explains why the behavior is happening. A lesson that Miraculous has given us before.

In the character Félix’s titular episode, Félix shows up and starts treating Adrien poorly. This leads to this exchange between Adrien and Plagg:

Plagg: What's up with that cousin of yours? First, he searches through your things, and then, the most unforgivable thing of all, he squashes my hunk of goat's cheese under your pillow! I'd been maturing that baby for two weeks! Do you realize? Two whole weeks! Adrien: Listen, Plagg. Félix lost his dad not so long ago, he's probably not himself. Plagg: I'm sorry, but there's just no excuse! You never touch my cheese, and yet, you just lost your mother not so long ago, right?

And, once again, this is a fair observation! The fact that Félix’s father died does not justify Felix trying to ruin Adrien’s life. All it does is explain his motivation.

Trauma does not excuse hurting others. When trauma has negative effects on us, it’s up to us to work through those feelings either on our own or, ideally, with the help of loved ones and therapists. We are never justified in lashing out at innocents who had nothing to do with our trauma.

This brings us to the topic of Marinette.

The fact that Marinette has trauma around romance does not justify her treatment of Adrien. Breaking into his home, trying to sabotage his relationship with Kagami, and all of her other obsessive behaviors are not okay just because she was traumatized by Kim. If Chloe and Felix are not excused by their trauma, then neither is she.

So why am I only bothered by this now?

Because, before this episode, Marinette’s behavior was very clearly a joke. It was, in my opinion, a bad joke, but it was a joke and, when it comes to writing, jokes have to be looked at differently than things that are played straight.

Miraculous relies heavily on absurdist humor. That’s why you’ve got an episode where Adrien and his teenage friends throw an unchaperoned party attended by a bunch of random adults. A thing that would be horrifying and upsetting in reality, but is fine in the show because it’s clearly played as being ridiculous and over the top. I mean, just look at this scene. Anyone taking this seriously has clearly lost the plot.

Marinette’s obsession fell under the same category. Something that would be very wrong in reality, but was obviously being played up for laughs. I was always under the impression that, without the absurdist humor, she’d be significantly toned down and that’s why I just sort of tolerated it in the show. Not my idea of a good joke, but clearly a joke so meh. I can overlook it while watching the show and, when writing her, I can be true to her character while not including this level of obsession because I don’t write crack fic.

Derision changed that. It took 4.5 seasons of questionable jokes and tried to justify them. And that? That is a terrible idea. Because there is no justification for Marinette’s behavior just like there is no justification for Chloe’s behavior in the exact same episode. What they’re doing is wrong and, at best, their trauma explains their behavior. It does not justify it.

Plus, hey, remember how Derision said Kim was a terrible person for laughing at Marinette’s trauma? Isn’t that the exact same thing that we’ve all unknowingly been doing for 4.5 seasons? Kinda makes it hard to rewatch old episodes where her crush was played for laughs, doesn’t it? I hope you’ve never laughed over Marinette’s behavior because, if you have, you’ve been making fun of her trauma and so have the writers.

And that sums up why this episode really bothers me. I either have to ignore a character’s trauma or I have to accept that her trauma has apparently made her unhinged and address it. Because if her behavior is not a bad joke, then the salters are right and Marinette is a total creep. I’m trying my hardest to choose option one, but I’m struggling.

It’s not that Marinette is the only character with questionable behavior. Adrien as Chat Noir is often written as overly persistent and obnoxious when it comes to his crush. It’s not great behavior, but it’s not a consistent characterization nor is it a major flaw. I can fix it with a quick character arc about boundaries or ignore it and (in my head) say that arc happened off screen because I have no doubt that this sort of common teenage issue could be overcome with relative ease. Because when Chat Noir is put in a situation where he could clearly violate Ladybug’s boundaries? He doesn’t. He is, ultimately, respectful. He just needs to be told that respect is more than listening to the explicit “no”.

Deep-seated trauma that leads to stalking? That’s not a minor flaw. It’s a major issue that reveals the need for psychological intervention. I’m not gonna give that to a teenager and fix it with the power of friendship and communication. Nor will I give the stalker her prize. I’m gonna keep him safe because, if Marinette has this level of romance-based trauma, then she is not mentally well enough to be a relationship with someone.

You see, I’ve had people with obsessive crushes who violated my boundaries. A loved one of mine had to get the police involved because of someone’s crush on them. Stalking and obsessive behavior is not a joke. It’s traumatizing, but even though I have that trauma, Miraculous never bothered me because of how the stalking was played as a joke.

Joke's over, though. As of Derision, we are supposed to take Marinette's behavior at face value.

So, yeah. I don’t know where I go from here. It’s been a week and I just have no desire to ever touch Marinette again. If anyone has some words of advice, I’d love to hear them. And I’m sorry, but it may be a while before anything of mine updates.

#miraculous salt #marinette salt #ml season 5 #ml derision #derision salt #derision spoilers #ml derision spoilers #ml s5 spoilers #ml writing salt #ml season 5 salt #miraculous season 5

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aalissy · 1 year

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Omg I loveeeeee protective boyfriend Adrien 🥹

#miraculous ladybug #miraculous #mlb #ml #ml spoilers #ml s5 spoilers #Miraculous spoilers #mlb spoilers #Adrien agreste #chloe bourgeois #derision #derision spoilers #adrinette #adrienette

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sidsinning · 1 year

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No offense but its really fucking rich that in the last season, Sabrina suddenly chooses to be mad that Chloe goes on a "losers are meant to be under me!" spiel- as if this hasn't been her daily dialogue for the whole time she's known her

#she literally uses you like a foot rest like what #ml derision #ml s5 spoilers #ml spoilers #ml #mlb #miraculous ladybug #sabrina salt #sidrabbles

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eddo-tensei · 1 year

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More thoughts on Derision (Spoilers, obviously)

I think it's amusing that the default counter-argument to anyone who criticizes this episode boils down to "Well, you're just a Chloe Stan!" Which is something I had to deal with myself recently. Apparently, you can only hate this episode if you're a Chloe apologist. First off, hi, I'm Eddo. I wrote a fanfic where Chloe literally gets thrown into the dirt and suffer an allergic reaction to cacti, both times being her own fault. I feel like my Chloe Stan license should be revoked after that.

Anyways, I'm not surprised with the direction they went with Chloe in Derision. It's been stated since around Season 4 that Chloe was on a "Damnation Arc", so they've been doing everything they can to make her worse and worse. So, I'm not surprised or even angry that they continued this here. I'm annoyed, but not angry. What I AM angry about would be the other characters who got mangled in this shitshow.

Writers? Could you please stop having Chat threaten people with Cataclysm after he's shown regret doing it to people by accident TWICE?! This has happened three times now, counting what happened with Scarabella. Yes, I know he did this before with Darker Owl, but that just makes it worse because that happened right AFTER he regretted doing this to Monarch. You know, the guy who's been tormenting and attacking everyone for over a year? I guess to Chat, Damocles and Kim deserve it more for ripping away a fantasy and pulling a shitty prank respectively.

I know I complained about this a lot already, but this needs to be stressed upon. If we're going to take Cataclysm seriously, especially with what later episodes showed us, maybe DON'T have your hero threaten people with it for relatively petty reasons? "BUT IT'S FOR TRUE LOVE!!!1!!" Yeah, no. When he tried to do it on Darker Owl, Ladybug told him to cut that crap. It then happened again with Dark Humor with Ladybug telling him not to do it. It doesn't matter if it's for "true love." Both times he did this so far, Ladybug made it clear that this was a bad idea. So, maybe you guys should stop trying to encourage it. I refuse to believe that Chat believes that Monarch is more deserving to live after everything that he did than Kim after what he did. Speaking of Kim...

My friendly neighborhood dumb jock, why would the writers do this to you? When we only had the leaks to go by, I actually tried to scour for any interactions Kim had with Marinette and I can confirm that with the revelations we got in Derision, they REALLY don't make sense. Yes, Kim was a bit of a douche in the first season. Origins had him push Ivan around to the point of being the trigger for the Akuma. But he wasn't THIS much of a douchenozzle. Moreover, I have a hard time believing Marinette would be as friendly as she is with Kim throughout the series given what he did to her as revealed in this episode. Also, I know this is going to sound offensive, but...Kim was Marinette's first crush? Really? That's what you're going with? I'm not trying to insult Kim, but there was NOTHING that hinted to this. I can't help but think this was the thought process of the writers when they brought this up:

"So, we need to have Chloe do something to Marinette that would explain why Marinette struggles to be with Adrien. It has to be something big and traumatic. More importantly, it has to involve Marinette actually having a past crush that Chloe ruined and it has to be a character we're familiar with, so we can't make up an OC for it. We can't use Nino because he had a crush on her and it wouldn't make sense for her to reciprocate. We can't use Nathaniel because his crush went almost completely unnoticed by Marinette and he's also gay now. We can't use Ivan because he likes Mylene and we can't complicate that. We can't use Max because most people think he's ace and subverting that would piss a ton of people off. Oh, and we can't have it be any of the girls either because our show would get cancelled if Marinette isn't straight. So, let's just make it this guy."

"This. Fucking. Guy."

I'm having a hard time thinking of any other reason. I know some people theorized in the past that Kim and Marinette might've had a thing, but I don't think they held any water. Even now, however, I really don't think people should be happy it was canonized in this way.

I always held the belief that Chloe was responsible for Marinette's behavior, but my idea of it was that Chloe had been bullying Marinette for a long time and those years of sustained bullying took its toll on the poor baker girl that made it difficult for her to not only open her heart to people she loves, but have difficulties making friends in general until Alya came along. Yeah, Chloe doesn't look good in this case either, but it would've been more reasonable and would probably resonate with a lot more people who probably had to deal with bullies messing with them for a long time because these effects usually aren't instant. They get built on for a long time and it can really mess up their perception on things.

I think a good story would've been Marinette having to heal from that sustained trauma and while it is difficult since nobody can just quickly heal from trauma, it'd be a good journey for Marinette to be able to open up again with Alya and Adrien being just the first two pieces Marinette needs for her recovery.

But now, instead of all that, it turns out Chloe just pulled a prank that just unleashed a cavalcade of trauma on Marinette all at once that is hyper-specific to how she handles her crush that Adrien and ONLY Adrien can heal. All the while, it turns out that the prank was actually pulled by a guy who I really thought was just kinda fun and cool, but now I can't talk about him in the same way again because he's been thrown under the bus for the sake of this nonsense plot that's difficult not to call a full-on retcon. Do you know what I can call a retcon, though? Or rather who?

I am sorry to all of the people who are probably stanning Socqueline right now, but I CAN'T vibe with her. I'm not saying you're not allowed to like her either, because that would be dumb, but I DON'T like how she was presented in Derision. First off, to get this out of the way, we're no strangers to characters being introduced out of nowhere. Felix and Zoe are both characters that come to mind. The thing is you can at least explain their respective absences easily. Felix had likely been distant from Adrien for a long time with him only coming in out of obligation with Amelie. Zoe is actually even more easy to explain given that she was shoved into a boarding school by Audrey and wouldn't really be able to connect with any of the characters until she was forced to transfer. Socqueline, however, does not have that luxury and cannot be easily explained away not only with how we found her, but for the fact that there was NO hint to her existing until Season 5 and that is inexcusable given how much importance this character now has. To put it in perspective, this is how we are introduced to Socqueline in Jubilation:

Marinette: That fake Ladybug from this morning, I think it was Socqueline, a school friend from last year. Knowing her, I’m sure she means well. But I have to convince her to stop putting herself in danger like that.

That's it. She just calls her a school friend. Yes, it's clear that she's at least important enough for Marinette to remember her name, she was just called a school friend. At the very least, she did have an interesting story with her trying to be Ladybug in order to help people. Of course, she had to be talked out of it because it's causing issues with the real Ladybug, but it's a decent story and Socqueline had only made a few appearances here and there.

And then Derision.

Yes, Socqueline referred to Chloe as "that monster", so it's clear that they planned her to have something against Chloe since her first appearance. However, Derision showed us that Socqueline wasn't just a school friend. She was Marinette's closest confidant in the school years prior to the start of the series. She actively protects Marinette from bullies, particularly Chloe, and was clearly a huge inspiration for her until Chloe got her suspended from school.

First off, in case I haven't made it clear, we haven't seen Socqueline AT ALL until Season 5. Not even a hint to her existence. So given how significant she was made out to be in Derision, WHY HASN'T SHE MADE ANY APPEARANCES IN THE SERIES BEFOREHAND?! She doesn't even have the excuse of being outside of Paris like Felix and Zoe do because she's STILL there and in an arts and crafts store no less, which probably would've been a great place for Marinette to hang out in with her friends if the writers thought this through. But they didn't and Socqueline's debut comes off as severely jarring because we have this character who was really important to Marinette's life just not show up until she started cosplaying as Ladybug.

Secondly, it muddles Marinette's own backstory as well as severely hampering the significance of Alya. Now instead of being alone with nobody to help her against Chloe, which makes her friendship with Alya all the more stronger, Marinette just had this super cool friend who was always there for her until mean ol' Chloe got her kicked out of school. Doesn't that sound like something you'd see in a fanfic, specifically one that's salting Alya given how Socqueline was depicted as Marinette's BFF?

Thirdly, if Chloe was able to get Socqueline suspended so easily, then why hadn't she been able to do that with the other students? Yeah, she got close with Alya, but that didn't stick. If Chloe really had the ability to just make students disappear even if it happened once, she would NOT hesitate to try and do this again with any other student who slighted her, ESPECIALLY Marinette. But she doesn't. Once her attempt on Alya failed, she didn't try again. Hell, LILA had more attempts to get Marinette kicked out of school than Chloe did and actually got closer to doing it than Chloe would ever get, which is weird since she doesn't have the title of "Mayor's Daughter" to throw around like Chloe would. This just feels like something done to explain away why Socqueline didn't show up in the series which doesn't work because she's STILL IN PARIS and I'm pretty sure Marinette would be more than happy to meet with Socqueline given how close they were, but that never happened.

Fourthly, I'm guessing nobody felt like pointing it out because it felt too obvious, but doesn't Socqueline just come off as the writer's answer to Bridgette? You know, the older Marinette based on the anime PV that some fan writers implement into their own stories? Yeah, she's not one-to-one similar to Marinette like Bridgette is, but it definitely feels like another instance of the writers pulling stuff out of fanon just to put a canon spin on it. And like all the other instances, it's a bad spin.

Lastly, this whole incident with the prank and Socqueline's suspension took place a few months before Origins. Not even a year at the earliest. It was specifically stated that Socqueline was suspended three weeks before the end of the school year. Given how close that time gap, the way everyone behaves in Origins makes almost no sense. Marinette would be a lot more horrified of Chloe if Derision was anything to go by and Chloe would be more willing to try and cast Alya out so Marinette doesn't have any allies given that Derision showed Chloe REALLY wanting to make sure nobody helps Marinette. The only point I could even give any leeway to is Kim and even then, again, he's not that much of a douche in Origins as he was in Derision. So, really, it all just comes off as a blatant retcon specifically to try and explain the new direction the writers are taking with certain characters. And do you want to know the dumbest thing? Apparently, Socqueline was such an inspiration to Marinette that the latter changed her hair to be more like Socqueline's.

No, seriously. That's also how they explain why Marinette has different hairstyles. I know Expository Hairstyle Changes are a thing in fiction, but this is just awkward as hell given how traumatic and melodramatic the whole thing is. You don't need to say that Marinette's hairstyle came from someone who she considered a hero because nothing about Marinette indicated that her hairstyle is important. This isn't like Josuke changing his hairstyle to be based on the man who saved him as a child. It's a purely cosmetic change that's suddenly given a shit-ton of significance because now it's connected to this horribly traumatic incident. In fact, you know what this reminds me of?

Actually, the whole segment where this Linkara clip came from seems to sum up a lot of things wrong with Derision. It's not just bad because it makes some characters look bad or introduces stuff out of nowhere. It's bad because now everything in the flashback is now part of all of the characters! Every prior episode will now have to be viewed with a lens tinted by the events of this episode. Now nobody can discuss Kim without people salting on him for the prank, now nobody can talk about how important Alya's friendship with Marinette because of Socqueline's sudden boost in significance (In fact, it's very likely that Alya salters will try to use Socqueline as a replacement friend), and now nobody can speculate the intrigue of Marinette's past because EVERYTHING about her behavior is linked to this specific incident and nothing else. That's what pisses me off about this episode. That's why I share that Double D meme so frequently. I could care less about how much of a monster Chloe was depicted to be in this episode, but I am going to complain when other characters are butchered in the process. I will complain about one thing concerning her, though.

Isn't it amazing that you can tell the writers are trying DESPERATELY to squish any and all positive interpretations of Chloe, even trying to downplay parental neglect because "this character also didn't have a mom and they didn't turn out this way" even though Mylene's and Chloe's situations are still VASTLY different? You can make the argument that Audrey's absence doesn't excuse Chloe's actions. In fact, I don't think it really does either, but saying that there's only one valid response to an absent parent is EXTREMELY insensitive to people who might be going through similar situations.

Oh, and to cap this all off? This is the favorite episode of one of the main writers. Said writer possibly being considered to be the new director for Season 6 of Miraculous and onwards. I'm not gonna name which one for obvious reasons, but it's been confirmed.

I feel like this is a good indication that you need to hop off this series.

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