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jedi-order-apologist · 4 years

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A Refutation of Telltale’s “Is the Jedi Order a Cult?”

I was directed to this video that claims that the Jedi Order is a cult during a discussion on reddit earlier, and while the person who linked it respectfully asked to end the discussion we were having, I figure the video is worth addressing on its own, separately from that discussion. So I’ve cleaned up the points I made over on reddit and stripped out the stuff relevant to that conversation, to explain just what I took issue with with this video.

To the video-maker’s credit, he does acknowledge that the Jedi are presented as correct within the narrative of the films. Having run into one too many “the point of the prequels was the flaws of the Jedi” across the Internet, I have to say it’s refreshing to see Jedi-critical arguments made without that assumption.

I still disagree with pretty much all of the points made in the video, and found it to be uncharitable, blatantly incorrect at times, and almost completely lacking in concrete examples and evidence of his claims, but he has a right to his own interpretations, especially in that he acknowledges that they’re not the intended takeaway. But I hope that my response will show that it’s not something actually reflected by the source material, and that the Jedi are not actually a cult, even setting aside creator intentions.

Disclaimer – I’m not familiar with this video-creator’s other work, but from what’s said in the video, it does seem that this isn’t his usual kind of material, and that he intended this as “lighthearted” video. With that in mind, its lack of robustness and misinformation is forgivable – this response is mostly meant as something for me (or you, if you want) to point to the next time someone brings this video up to support their position, not as a criticism of this video-creator or his work in general. If you choose to engage with the video directly, please be kind.

He begins his arguments by claiming that the Jedi erase people’s identities by having them block their emotions completely - this isn't true; what we see the Jedi say is "be mindful of your feelings" (Mace Windu, TPM), and "don't let your personal feelings get in the way" (Obi-Wan, AOTC), and "don't let your feelings cloud your judgement" (several times). All of that requires acknowledgment of one's emotions and dealing with them appropriately.

He then claims that those who leave are shunned - this is again, blatantly untrue. For instance, at the beginning of AOTC, Dooku is still spoken of highly long after he has left the Order - the Jedi are reluctant to even entertain the idea that he could be behind the attack on Padmé. The Sith are for one thing, not necessarily ex-members of the Order, and for another, they’re "shunned" because they're going around torturing and murdering people, not because of heretical views on the Force. We see in TCW that the Jedi Order co-exists peacefully with other Force traditions, even dark-sided ones like the Nightsisters.

Another claim he makes is "There aren't any checks and balances for the Jedi Council", which is again, untrue - the Jedi are accountable to the Senate, and, if anything, that arrangement is skewed in favor of the Senate, because the Senate is not truly accountable in turn. The Jedi Council is ultimately pressured into decisions against its will, especially as the war goes on – most notably, Anakin’s appointment to the Council in ROTS.

He is critical of the Jedi taking in children, but the same can be said of any adoption - simply taking in children is not, in of itself, cult behavior, or else every adoptive family is a cult. The approach the author of this video takes to this category is too broad and does not adequately establish how to distinguish cults preying on children from healthy child-rearing.

He then claims that Jedi are expected to obey unquestioningly – but I disagree that this is evidenced in the source material. The Jedi are expected to respect their elders but we don't see harsh punishment for disobedience or dissent, merely disapproval. For instance, the most trouble Qui-Gon, as a noted maverick, gets is some exasperated side-eye. Similar to the previous claim, the approach the author takes is too broad and doesn’t distinguish a cult’s expectation of obedience from a parent’s expectation of obedience.

He claims that the Jedi control clothing and hairstyle - this is misleading at best. While the padawans all are expected to wear the braid, the hairstyle isn't set beyond that (many species don’t even have hair!), and even with the Jedi sporting a traditional outfit, we see their robes and tunics come in many different shades and colors. Some forgo the traditional robes all together, such as Ahsoka Tano, Luminara Unduli, Aayla Secura, some of them even wearing the ornamentation of their homeworld cultures on top of that (again, Ahsoka, Luminara, and Barriss Offee, and Depa Billaba, and Shaak Ti...).

Sith are, again, not ex-members as the video-author implies, and again, the issue with them is the torturing and murdering and enslaving people, not simple philosophical differences. The Jedi are perfectly allowed to speak with outsiders and presumably critics of their Order; they just don’t want to let a bunch of genocidal despots have their way with the galaxy. The video also makes an unfair assumption that Jedi can't get information from outside sources; there is no evidence for this – in fact, we see in AOTC that Obi-Wan turns to an outside source when he can’t get the results he wants from the Temple droids, and even trusts that outside source over contradicting information coming from within the Temple’s information base (i.e., the existence of Kamino – he does not simply accept that Kamino doesn’t exist, he seeks further wisdom on the matter).

The video-author completely omits the fact that Palpatine is arrested not merely because of being "on the dark side", but because the man had orchestrated a war for his own sake and was attempting to turn the Republic into a dictatorship under his control. That is a very good reason to arrest someone.

Regarding the good versus evil section - first of all, the Jedi in the first six films never once refer to "the light side". Not once. I don’t recall if it came up in TCW (aside from the beings on Mortis, but they are not Jedi), either. Luke does refer to the "good side" in the OT but his teachers don't call it that. This point also goes against the visual metaphors that Lucas makes use of: “Color plays an extremely important part. The bad guys exist mostly in a black and white world; the good guys live in an organic world of browns and greens. Philosophically the bad guys live in an absolute world of black and white, where the good guys live in a more naturally nuanced world.” - George Lucas, the Making of ROTJ. The Jedi’s belief system is more nuanced than “this is good” and “this is bad”, and their rules and Code are not purely about morals.

The video goes back to the identity thing – but as I've already said, several Jedi are seen wearing the garments and ornamentation of their birth cultures. They also keep their birth names, and seem to value names highly given how they approach the clone troops under their command. Here’s a good post going into that even more.

The "Code" and swearing-in ceremonies he cites are not used in the films or TCW. I’m not sure where the swearing-in is sourced from, either, and the “Code” is a meditation mantra.

The things the Jedi say are not to stop complex thought – his example of Obi-Wan even at once point telling Anakin to “use the Force! Think!”, indicating that he would like for Anakin to think things through – he echoes this later in ROTS, trying to get Anakin to consider the Chancellor’s suspicious behavior. There’s also the fact that the way Yoda speaks is by George Lucas's own words, designed to get people thinking about what Yoda is saying.

Comparing meditation to hypnosis is...completely uncharitable.

And again with the emotions thing - at no point are any emotions labeled evil, nor do they avoid them - they are expected to be mindful (i.e. cognizant) of them, and to not let those emotions rule their actions. There is nothing to indicate that their teachings are the most uncharitable and extreme interpretation you can take from their words (as this video does) instead of a reasonable and healthy approach to self-control that is actually valuable psychologically.

His final claims repeat the earlier claim of “shunning” - again, there is no evidence for this behavior towards non-believers, especially as we see them having friends outside the Order. And at no point does anyone say that there is no happiness outside of the Order.

I hope I addressed all his points and sufficiently explained why they don’t match up with what we see in the source material. If you want further reading on how the Jedi actually function, with robust sources, I recommend checking out @gffa’s reference guide for the current continuity. There is also my “in defense of the jedi” tag, which collects my and others’ meta posts on the Jedi, their philosophies, and actions.

#in defense of the jedi #the jedi order #jedi order #the jedi #jedi #discussion #the jedi are not a cult

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inkognito97 · 7 years

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For starwars/thor au can we have quigon be a frost giant who was given up by the order when the asgardian and frost giant wars were getting bad?

It all had happened way too fast. One moment, he had been an active part of the Jedi Order, a well respected Master and the teacher of an Asgardian, the next he found himself before the sealed doors of the Jedi temple, without a home, without any way to contact anybody and just with the few things in his pack. They had not even let him keep his lightsaber. And they had not given him any kind of explanation. The Council had simply summoned him before them, nothing unusual, despite the early hour, and without much ado, they had thrown him out of the Order.

For one fleeting moment, Qui-Gon had thought that he had gone too far in his rebellious streaks, but then he had remembered that none of his tendencies had shown ever since he had taken Obi-Wan under his wing. The risk was just too great for the Padawan to copy some of his Master’s antics, at least this early in their relationship and some things that Qui-Gon did, were threatening for the position a Jedi in training, Asgardian or not.

A sigh escaped the bearded male, who had just lost everything he had ever known, his home, his friends and his family. He had even lost Obi-Wan. The Council would undoubtedly sever his bond with his Padawan, once the ginger haired Jedi returned from Asgard. A single tear rolled down his cheek, into his well kept beard. He had no idea where to go. Of course he could head to Dexter, the Besalisk still owed him one or two things, but this was definitely not a solution for ever.

With a last glance up at the wonderful picture of the Jedi temple, Qui-Gon made his first step into a life that he did not know. he was a Jedi, had always been one, he did not know anything else. With a heavy heart, did he move forward, not looking behind him again. He just wished his dear Padawan all the luck in the world…

Obi-Wan was troubled. Not only was there a war going on between Asgard, but he was receiving a strange feeling from the bond he shared with his Master. Somehow, the bond was being muted and it was due to an outside source, the young Asgardian was very sure of it. He had told Loki about his worries, the prince, who had gotten an ugly wound to his chest while fighting alongside his older brother against the Frost Giants that had come through the rainbow bridge, had immediately sent out a messenger to contact Heimdall.

“Don’t worry Obi-Wan, we will find out what was happening.” the Padawan could only nod to that.

Not everything was alright in the great palace. Odin was on the verge of Odin’s sleep and there was a huge strife between the two princes. Ever since the battle against the frost giants, Obi-Wan had been there too, it had been revealed that Loki was one too. Needless to say had Frigga claimed Loki as her own son and therefor as an Asgardian, with Odin agreeing - especially since it had become clear that it could not have been Loki, who had told the Frost Giants how to find and use the secret passages, since he had spent almost all his time with Obi-Wan - but Thor was still distrustful. That and the blonde had been severely punished by his father for his recklessness and disobedience.

“Loki… I have a bad feeling about this.”

The raven haired man looked thoughtful at his student and unofficial little brother. “is it the same kind of ‘bad feeling’ you experienced, while we were in Jotunheim?” he asked.

Obi-Wan nodded. “Yes.”

A humming sound escaped the older male. “You know… I would very much like to meet your teacher again. I have a theory, though it may be a little far-fetched, but I would still like to test it.”

“What kind of theory?” he leaned forward in the chair he was sitting on. Loki’s bedroom was the place, where he spent most of his time now.

There was a strange gleam in the other male’s eye, something that did not mean well. “I’d like to keep it to myself for now. It may be false alarm and I do not want to cause unnecessary panic for you.”

When Loki had first met the boy’s Master, he had felt strangely connected to the unusual large man. It was the same kind of connection he had felt, while he had been in Jotunheim. if he did not know it any better, he would say that the long haired Jedi was somehow connected to the ice world. But Loki could not say without testing the man, probably the same way as he had found out his own origin. He did not want Obi-Wan to know all of this though. The boy had enough on his platter as it is, he didn’t need to add to it.

“Alright,” said the ginger haired Padawan. He hesitated, “Can I stay with you tonight? I don’t like being alone…” he asked.

“Of course,” Loki could understand the younger male all too well. He had been young once too, after all. Also, it felt good that at least his relationship to his little brother had not changed after his little… secret, if it could even be called that… got out.

“Thank you,” mumbled Obi-Wan and in the next moment, he was already deep in thoughts, all the while hoping that Heimdall would his Master soon.

#star wars #obi wan kenobi #qui gon jinn #loki laufeyson #thor #crossover #padawan obi-awan #poor qui-gon #frost giant qui-gon #though he does not know yet #frost giant #war #asgard #asgardian!obi-wan #asgardians #prompt #anonymous

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