#s2 negativity

[dndads-confessions]

I'm gonna be honest the dndads fandom has been really tiring lately.

I feel like it's been this way since s2 really began running its course. I can totally understand that a lot of people like it and I'm not gonna shit on them, but for me it genuinely is something I struggle to listen to. I genuinely had to stop listening to s2 and start listening to s1 all over again around episode 35-ish because I found myself so bored. I mean hell, I'm caught back up to s2 ep16 right now and it took me probably at minimum 2 weeks to finish ep 15 because I would turn it off when I realized I wasn't paying attention.

I feel like my experience in dndads fandom has reflected that and so has the podcast.

The characters overall to me also feel like they're significantly flatter than s1 and also aren't nearly as compelling. I feel like they all had moments of growth in the first season that felt natural, whereas they feel significantly more forced this season. Taylor had also had next to no growth from all of the episodes I've heard which I find quite frustrating as someone who enjoys roleplay heavy character driven dnd games when I play and DM myself.

I feel like the experience overall finds me like... struggling to find a place in the dndads fandom at this point because we all just seem somewhat tired and drawn out, the same way Anthony feels. I hope they do a different premise altogether for their next game tbh because the vibe of this one I think has kinda brought down the energy of the entire podcast. Once I finish s2 once idk if I'll relisten again at all.

.

[pirategrime]

I rly hope you’re talking abt Ed and Stede in that untagged post bc I’d like to not be alone but even if you’re not I’m on anon and I’d like to say I’m tired of being told (by the show, not by fans) to like Stede and the ship when it just doesn’t feel like there’s any actual textual reason. And after The Event it just feels kinda sick and sad and they didn’t go slow like Ed wanted and he was over Iz so fast and it was all played for jokes and I really want to enjoy it but I honestly don’t. Also sorry for weird wording I’m trying to avoid The Search Function

i was, yeah (tagging this with #s2 negativity if anyone needs to mute).

it makes me really upset because i feel like gb (both as a ship and as individual characters) got shafted so brutally at the end of the season that it just. did nuclear scorching damage to everything around them. they didn't grow and learn together, they barely flirted together, they didn't find a satisfactory way to compromise on their dreams and goals together... but the text is acting like all that happened. the dissonance makes me feel crazy. like you said, the show's telling us all these things happened but i feel like it's not matching up with anything i personally saw. ugh.

and that's not even touching the ℹ️zzy of it all! i still feel so hollow and miserable still about how it ended. it sucks. i wish so badly i liked it and found it satisfying but it's just... fallow.

[maglors-grief]

me when I see the hundredth post or comment from team green stans about how much of an evil bitch Rhaenyra is in the show 🥱

[femboypussy420]

how fucking hard is it to maintain a consistent tone in a television show across multiple seasons

[electric016]

Idk, I mean the crew already tried to give Izzy a burial at sea in season 1, and he didn't seem to want it, so 🤷‍♀️

[izzyliker]

it’s fine to love s2 but i wish people would stop acting like this show is like a documentary and not a scripted piece of romantic comedy fiction. like “well many real people don’t even get to have a community before dying so think about that” or “i’m disabled, if i died tomorrow would you say all my healing was for nothing?” is about real people who really die for mundane and unfair reasons. ofmd is a tv show with writers who kill characters for reasons outside of the fictional universe for various reasons and killing off a character who was maimed by the main character to the point of needing to have his leg amputated to bolster ed’s nonexistent character development isn’t a freak accident happening to a real person, it’s a choice made by writers who said that izzy had been put through enough and now needed to die. you are not a fictional character. izzy is. and david jenkins is a showrunner whose reason for killing izzy - the only character whose disability is centered and the heart of his arc towards finding love and community - is because he doesn’t think ed can flourish with izzy in his life & because izzy has “been through enough” and now has to be put down like an elderly dog.

[knaccblog]

Aziraphale and "I Forgive You"

So after I watched the first season a few times however many years ago, I noticed something, wrote up a bit of a meta about it and then never posted it. I thought that it was either very obvious or very silly and either way, no one needed to see it. But now it's several years and another season later and again, I'm noticing the exact same thing so here it goes- I think the reason Aziraphale keeps saying that he forgives Crowley has overall very little to do with what Crowley has just done right before Aziraphale says it and much more to do with a secret Aziraphale hides deep within himself and has for thousands of years, a truth that he hates to acknowledge and is terrified to speak aloud: he thinks God is wrong to have not Forgiven Crowley.

Get settled in because this is gonna take a bit.

The first time I started noticing this really clearly is the Bandstand Breakup scene. Crowley starts by cussing God literally out- "For the record, great, pustulant, mangled bollocks to the Great blasted Plan." To which Aziraphale says, "May you be forgiven." And yes, Crowley has just sinned and Aziraphale is a stuffy angel but the way Aziraphale says it is like a hope, atleast to my ears. Like he's really wishing that God will see how good Crowley truly is and bring him back to Heaven even though he keeps doing stupid stuff like this

Anyway, Crowley then responds with, "I won't be forgiven. Not ever. Part of a demon's job description. Unforgivable. That's what I am." And Aziraphale responds again with a hopeful sounding, "You were an angel once." At this point, I was almost sure that he's talking about his personal wishes here. It sounds like he's saying, "Come on, Crowley. There's a chance." To which Crowley responds, "That was a long time ago," basically saying it's impossible and shutting that whole bit of the conversation down. And you can just watch Aziraphale's face fall at that, like it kills him for that to be true. 

The next time the topic of forgiveness and Crowley comes up is when Crowley shows up to beg Aziraphale to run away with him one last time. In this conversation, Aziraphale is very adamant that if he talks to the right people, they won't want the apocalypse and they'll stop it. He, of course, thinks this because his most core belief is that God is good and that even if we don't understand how what God is doing is good right now, it will lead to goodness eventually via the Rube Goldburg machine which is time and the universe etc aka God is ineffable. But even Aziraphale can't imagine how the ineffable Rube Goldburg machine could turn an event where everything on earth dies into a good one so therefore, he's certain that God doesn't want the Apocalypse.

Crowley responds to this hope with, "You're so clever. How can someone as clever as you be so stupid?" to which Aziraphale responds, "I forgive you" in a very gentle but sure tone. And now yes, while it is entirely possible that Aziraphale is forgiving Crowley for calling him stupid, I've always felt like that would be a rather weighty response considering how mild an insult it is. It's also possible (and I feel slightly more likely) that Aziraphale is forgiving Crowley for his lack of faith, his inability to believe in the goodness of God anymore. 

And that could definitely be it, but if we think about the way Aziraphale had talked about forgiveness at the Bandstand, the hope and desire that he seemed to put into the idea of forgiveness and Crowley and the fact that Crowley had dismissed it as entirely impossible for him to ever be forgiven, than a third read of Aziraphale's "I forgive you" emerges: one in which Aziraphale is saying, "While God might never forgive you, I do". It's "I might never see you again since you intend to run away to the stars but if this is the last time I ever see you, I want you to know that I think you are deserving of forgiveness. That I see the good in you even if God can't." It's a combination "I love you" and small rebellion against God, because while Aziraphale can't bring himself to give up on Her completely and run away with Crowley (even though a part of him clearly wants to), he is willing to say that She's done this one thing wrong and it's never forgiving Crowley, who Aziraphale can see clearly is more kind and good than any of the angels he knows.

So yeah, that was about where the idea rested at the end of the first season but now we have a bunch of new historical scenes and a new "I forgive you" following a very loaded conversation in which Aziraphale got extremely excited by the idea of Crowley being reinstated as an Angel and I felt like this idea has even more legs than before. 

To me, it's very clear that Aziraphale's pitch for Crowley to come back to Heaven isn't him hoping to "reset" Crowley to how he was before the Fall or him being incapable of loving Crowley as a Demon and instead was him being overjoyed to have this secret truth (Crowley is deserving of God's Forgiveness) that he's been observing for 6000ish years be acknowledged and have a chance to come to fruition. After all, as we saw this season (and honestly last season too but less pronounced), Crowley, current Demon Crowley, not the angel he knew over 6000 years ago, has proven over and over again just how truly good he is to Aziraphale.

For example, in the Job sequence, Crowley does a truly good thing that no Angel (beside Aziraphale) would do or even think that they should do and that is save Job's children. And through the entirety of this bit, Aziraphale basically always believes that he will. There are even two moments where Crowley tries his best to scare Aziraphale away, to play up being the bad guy (so as to better hide the con he's running and protect Aziraphale), but Aziraphale's faith in Crowley's goodness does not falter. At the end of the day, it seems clear that Aziraphale has more faith that Crowley will do the good thing, the correct thing than God. Conveniently for Aziraphale's faith in God though, not understanding how something horrible he hates will eventually lead to goodness in the long run is a foundational principle of said faith so his faith in God remains strong even after everything She and Heaven do to Job. 

But his faith in Crowley doesn't require such a complicated work around. He believes Crowley won't kill children and he is correct. Though unfortunately, this very simplicity leads to a new problem, a problem that we can see eventually solidify in Aziraphale's mind, becoming a running theme of their association and leading to the eventual "I forgive you"s.

Aziraphale can clearly see how kind and good Crowley is, how he does the right thing as best he can, even when he could (and sometimes does) get into immense trouble for it. But for some reason, despite repeated evidence that Crowley is everything that Aziraphale believes Angels are and should be, Crowley continues to be a Demon. And once you realize that Aziraphale has noticed this contradiction and that it most likely haunts him and is a constant challenge to his worldview, it colors a lot of what he says in a new light. Many of what seem like simple, self-righteous statements reveal themselves to be Aziraphale trying to protecting himself from a massive logical inconsistency he keeps stumbling across. 

"It must be bad, otherwise you wouldn't have tempted them into it," Aziraphale says, clearly not quite sure why it's bad actually. 

"You, I'm afraid, are evil," Aziraphale asserts, basically stating that Crowley is evil because he's evil. It's tauntological and therefore doesn't have to make sense. (He says this one shortly before Crowley saves Elsbeth from suicide, poverty and damnation.) 

"So this is all your demonic work? I should have known," Aziraphale says, thinking, "Aha, this time Crowley must have done the bad thing and therefore continues to deserve being Fallen." (Crowley has, in fact, not done the bad thing but shhhh, worry about that later.) 

Once you notice this self defensive habit, you can't unnotice it really, it's just so present in Aziraphale's logic and speech. Aziraphale even at one point says, "Still a demon, then?" after the Ark and Job and Jesus because on some level he probably doesn't want to actually evaluate, it makes no sense to him that Crowley is still a Demon, especially when he has also sinned in a few ways (lied to Gabriel, thwarted the will of God, technically gluttony etc) and nothing has happened to him, to say nothing for all the things Gabriel has done (or has just let passively happen without a thought to interfere).

So yes, I think the entire final argument plays out the way it does because Aziraphale thinks Crowley is good and deserves to be reinstated, to be forgiven by God more than anything. 

He comes into their final conversation nervous but excited, to the point where he stomps right over what Crowley is trying to say. "You see I... I have some incredible good news to give you." The good news is for Crowley, you see, because Crowley deserves this and clearly being forgiven like he so deserves should logically make Crowley happy. It will make Aziraphale happy after all. 

Aziraphale then starts to describe the conversation that he had with Metatron, stating that he thinks he might have misjudged him. And why would he think that he misjudged the angel who had told him point blank to his face that "The point is not to avoid the war, it is to win it" about the Apocalypse? Well, it's not because he's offered the job of Supreme Archangel, that's for sure. As we can see in the flashback, Aziraphale seems nervous and uninterested in the job at first. He says clearly that he doesn't want to go back to Heaven and even brings up a very half assed excuse to try and weasel out of it, a soft no of, "Where will I get my coffee?" 

No, instead, the clear, obvious point where Aziraphale changes his mind about the job and about the Metatron is when he offers to reinstate Crowley as an Angel. Metatron has, quite accidentally (I think? I don't think he actually knows Aziraphale's secret soul), just said one of the most faith affirming things he possibly could to Aziraphale, "We can correct that little error that's been bothering you. You are completely correct that Crowley deserves God's forgiveness." 

Given that, it's understandable that Aziraphale is absolutely bubbly about Crowley's reinstatement when he mentions it to him, like the best thing ever has just happened to him even though he's talking about something that will happen to Crowley and not him at all. "You could come back to heaven and- and everything. Like the old times, only even nicer." (Nicer because this time, they are in love. Nicer because they'll both be powerful enough to make a difference.)

Some other bits of Aziraphale's dialogue from this scene that make so much sense through this lens are:

After Crowley tries to reiterate his constant stance that both sides are bad actually, and mentions how he rejected Hell's offer to work with them again, Aziraphale misses his point completely and says, "But well, obviously you said no to Hell, you're the bad guys. But Heaven, it's the side of truth, of light, of good." Aziraphale's faith in the potential goodness of Heaven and the actual goodness of God is unflappable but so is his belief that good is what Crowley wants to be doing. Like of course a good soul like Crowley would reject working for Hell again but why would he reject a chance to do good like he's sneakily been doing all along? (Aziraphale here ignores the fact that he's also had to sneakily do good on the side sometimes even though he was always working for "the side of good" but that is very par for the course for him sadly.) 

The lines, "Come with me- to heaven. I'll run it, you can be my second in command. We can make a difference," are a particularly telling set.  Everything about these from the high position he's offering Crowley to the "We" scream that Aziraphale trusts Crowley, a Demon, to guide Heaven the correct way more than any angel already in Heaven.

Aziraphale's final, desperate argument also lines up well with this (as well as featuring Aziraphale more completely referencing how he wants him and Crowley to be together romantically). "Come back, to heaven. Work with me! We can be together. Angels... Doing good. I- I need you! I don't think you understand what I'm offering you." Like is the "I need you" here romantic? Definitely. But it's also Aziraphale again affirming that he trusts Crowley to lead him the correct way ie goodness, because, as it's been shown to us many times (and focused on particularly in this season), Crowley will do and always has been doing the correct thing as best he could while Aziraphale would dither and be locked into passivity (like in The Resurrectionists).

So yes, after many attempts to explain to Crowley how he should be in Heaven, doing good and Aziraphale needs his help and one last desperate kiss from Crowley, we reach the final dreaded, "l forgive you." And yes, maybe Aziraphale is forgiving Crowley for not having faith that they can fix heaven, for abandoning him, for kissing him so suddenly. But I hope, after everything I've laid out here in this essay, you can also see why I think Aziraphale is saying, "Even as you reject God's forgiveness and leave me behind, I still see that you are good and know you deserve it so I will forgive you anyway." And maybe, even though it's still blasphemous to disagree with God, it's less scary for Aziraphale to say "I forgive you" one more time than tell Crowley that he loves him for the first time. He is very good at forgiveness after all.

[pastryjay]

Hey! If you're an OFMD fan who loved S2, including the finale and posts/ reblogs mostly OFMD stuff, can you give this a like this please? I'm looking for more blogs to follow and want to avoid all negativity about the show. Especially hello if you love Ed/ Stede, they are everything to me <3.

[hikaaa-bi]

i hate the whole "the show was cancelled" excuse that toh fans constantly use to justify poor writing choices. i'm as upset as anyone that toh was cut short, but the show writers got an advantage that a lot of other shows didn't. they were allowed to actually end the show. look at infinity train, for example. it had more seasons planned but the execs decided to cancel it without even giving the creators time to write a proper ending.

so in that case, the writers of toh should consider themselves lucky and make do with what they have. of course, it's most ideal to have the freedom to write the entire show how you want. but when you can't do that but you're allowed to give the series a proper resolution, you have to pick and choose what plot points to focus on.

instead of focusing on the important arcs and plot points (belos's backstory, the collector's origin, hunter's arc, etc) the writers decided to add completely unnecessary ships and additions to further complicate the plot. i'll say it: huntlow was unnecessary, the whole hexside and kikimora thing in s3e2 was unnecessary, the collector's rushed redemption arc was unnecessary. in fact, some of these decisions actively affected the ongoing plot badly (huntlow ruining hunter's arc and bringing him back to square one).

in the end, you're left with more questions than answers. what's with the collector's sudden switch from evil and calculating to poor innocent uwu child? what actually happened in belos's past? how did hunter move on from his trauma without getting any closure and being paired with a person who acts a lot like his controlling uncle? why did amity forgive luz so quickly for lying to her after she asked her not to? what happened to all the witches and citizens of the demon realm who actually followed and worshipped belos?

so yeah, you really can't defend toh with this excuse. if i was making a show and was forced to cut it short, i'd be angry and upset, sure. but i'd try to make the best of it. i would focus on the main plot instead of going after side characters or ships that add nothing of importance to the plot. i still like this show a lot but i'm not going to blindly defend it. it has its flaws and they need to be critiqued.

[ofthebrownajah]

Just like Robert Jordan intended 😌

[dndads-confessions]

i feel like Matt and Freddie have taken a dnd-player approach to the season 2 campaign while Beth Anthony and will have a writer approach. There’s nothing wrong with either approach imo but my issue is that will’s the only one out of the writers that is using that approach successfully to make normal a compelling character while a lot of stuff Anthony and Beth have tried to do with scary has fallen flat. Thats not to say scary is bad or Anthony’s not been doing a great job as dm, but will’s the one that stands out as truly creating a compelling and emotionally meaningful arc for his character.

.

[pirategrime]

I know the feeling like ultimately the main pairing also got either such bad weak writing or NO writing this season that I cant bring myself to like them anymore? Not as characters or as a couple. It's been ruining fic for me too!! I hate it!!! I cant buy that they have good intentions, or the capacity for self reflection needed to grow, or the push through to stick to a change, or that they care about other people beyond surface level at all anymore, and that was the whole point for me

right.... i'm trying to approach this the same way i look at other characters i've loved who were done dirty by writers and reframe their actions as Poor Writing Choices versus actual bad characters because i need that life preserver to have any hope of enjoying the fandom again. but it feels extremely bad! so many bizarre and mean choices with the writing this season just warped my view of the characters and the tone of the show. i share your misery. i just don't understand what they were going for.

[bloomeng]

i made the joke earlier about how steddyhands fans tend to like edstede the least of all the pairs, and i just wanted to elaborate bc actually i do have more to say about this

when i first watched the show i didn't really participate in the fandom (so i don't know pre-s2 fandom drama), i was neutral about izzy and i suppose i liked edstede the most simply by default. in general in season 1 i thought their relationship was charming back when the show was still firmly in the realm of a comedy. then s2 happened...

i wouldn't say that s2 ruined edstede for me permanently because i still like them, but i will say that it definitely reshaped how i see their relationship. suddenly their relationship was stagnant, going in circles, and generally starting to feel more like active bad influences on each other. which is wild considering how in s1 the whole crux of it was that stede and ed were actively making each other more authentic people. i will say though that i personally feel the reason edstede fell flat to me in s2 was mostly due to ed's behavior and the way stede overlooks it. ed's behavior in s2 will always be one of my biggest complaints of s2 (the rest of the issues are more technical).

recently i've seen the opinion that edstede are now MORE problematic than edizzy, which i don't exactly agree with. i agree with the sentiment that with all the developments in s2 edstede feels worse, but i think that has more to do with the fact that their relationship issues are far more tangible to the majority of the audience. with edizzy their issues stem from an intense bond forged by a deep codependence that is pushed to extremes. simply put their dynamic is rare. (i want to quickly note that this doesn’t make their relationship better narratively; there’s a space for both in story telling and both are equally valuable.) edstede's issues on the other hand are more grounded, to the point where most people have experienced some level of their conflicts in their life whether that be firsthand or secondhand. so it's not that their problems are worse so much as more people have stronger reactions because they can relate directly. not saying people don't relate to edizzy, it's more about the scale to which people relate.

my famous example is breaking bad (spoilers for a decade-old series) but i think one of the reasons people hate skylar so much more than walt (besides the obvious misogyny) is that they can relate to the anger of being cheated on while it's harder to relate to the feeling of your husband secretly being a drug lord. like sure his thing on paper is ten times worse but audiences usually relate strongly to the things they personally relate to.

edizzy will always be worse on paper (the toe incident alone makes sure of that) but edstede now feels worse is what i'm getting at. and sure i know izzy emotionally matured leaps and bounds in s2 but unfortunately that doesn't fix edizzy. in order for it to actually be a healthy relationship they both need to grow, so yeah they're still firmly in the toxi yuri category.

anyway i actually do like them a whole lot, but they also make me angry on izzy and the crew's behalf. and on a personal level, i just tend to prefer non-canon ships because i feel like i have more wiggle room. that and if they're canon i'm usually satisfied with that canon so i don't find myself hyper-fixating as much. hence why i didn't really get into the fandom after s1, despite liking the show more at that point.

this is just my observation but i think a lot of the reasons people are now drifting from edstede and into the safety of non-canon ships is simply because s2 stripped their relationship of some of their whimsy. a lot of people are angry with ed and stede and are seeking refugee amongst ships that don’t feel like they have to confront the glaring holes in their relationship.

but these are just my musings i don’t speak for anyone but myself.

[glass-adeptus]

Rn I'm seeing a lot of people losing their minds saying wesper will lose iconic moments from the books and I raise you: they can still happen just in slightly different contexts

A lot of their banter can even be kept unchanged imo! And for certain scenes I really don't think they're entirely lost

In the books we get flashbacks to them first meeting-- what if we get the "not just girls" moment then in the tannery? Because surely they have to breach that subject in order to get to a ons?

We can still get the Kuwei mix up, it'll just be a lot fucking angstier with an established relationship. What if instead of a "get together first kiss" like the books they're in the midst of a quarrel and so Jesper attempts it as a make up kiss which just spirals and makes it worse? (Jesper feeling something is wrong during the kiss on screen holy fuck)

On top of that I have no doubts their relationship will hit rocky points and so imagine if they are having quarrels and they give us the "that's not all I want" moment on black veil? They can still have these emotionally charged moments in an established relationship!

I don't know why people get fixed on the pre-relationship stuff and then act like it's boring when characters are actually together. If anything it just makes the stakes higher!

I seriously think people have given up after seeing it's not a play by play adaptation which makes me so sad! I've had so much fun thinking of all the ways the scenes will be more emotional with them already together.

Just use your imagination for a minute dammit.

[alsoknownasallison]

Louis de Pointe du Lac.

[buildoblivionthenwewilltalk]

also bit of a choice to imply that klaus’ powers were also his personality????