#tailor made for their breakup arc too

[anotherfallenchild]

A personal affront to me that they haven’t put Nick Cave songs in gomens cause who else is doing it like Nick re catholic longing and discourse trauma breakup songs

Boatman’s call is about aziracrow to me now

Far From Me and Idiot Prayer were made for them I don’t need to elaborate

[veliseraptor]

I can't remember if anyone has actually asked you this. I apologise beforehand if you're repeating yourself. What are your three favourite scenes in The Untamed and why?

(Love how this took so long, mostly because I was waiting to get through all the listed moments in my rewatch. Anyway! It’s here now!)

Oh, fuck. 

Okay, I couldn’t keep it to three. I tried! I did! But I couldn’t. So here is a list of just general favorite scenes with the three scratched off. I realized belatedly that most of these are just painful because I love pain I guess??? but yeah that’s just who I am and I think I have to accept that.

Under a read more because Jesus this got long.

1. The entire scene at Nightless City culminating in Wei Wuxian’s death. Like, okay, honestly, if I could expand this into basically everything between Jin Zixuan’s death and Wei Wuxian’s, I’d do that, but that feels like too much even though in my head it is all sort of...one contiguous marathon of pain. But god!!! I have a whole thing for...characters hitting their breaking point, for breaking points in general, for seeing a character I love just...crack open, and that’s what happens here.

Like. Wei Wuxian’s been cracking for a while, and there’s a number of breaking points that kind of build on each other, but this is, obviously, where the real snap happens.

And on a narrative level, too, there’s the thing that...this is the point that we as the audience have been spiraling toward since first seeing the beginning of episode one. This is where the entire long stretch of flashback has been pointing - here’s where it culminates, where it falls into place, where everything circles back to where the show started and now you know exactly how it got there. 

Also I just. Love to suffer, and this entire scene is one whole long stretch of suffering. 

2. The golden core reveal. Oh man, I was waiting for this conversation for, like. Ever. I knew it was coming and I knew it was going to have to happen and I just kept being like. When will it be. When will it be and then it happened and god it was beautiful. Everything about this whole scene was just tailor made to hurt me and make me love it, from the confrontation in the ancestral shrine right down to when Jiang Cheng bolts in a panic. 

I hurt for everyone here. Wen Ning who has hit the end of his rope and is just fed up with everything. Jiang Cheng whose world is getting turned upside down and inside out and a whole lot of things falling into place all at once, his self-conception wrecked and his understanding of Wei Wuxian both opened and destroyed. Lan Wangji who is understanding what he missed and, I think, beating himself up about having missed it, and also the fresh understanding of just how ready Wei Wuxian is to throw himself under a bus for the people he loves. Wei Wuxian who doesn’t know any of this is happening but has just collapsed after running on fumes basically since resurrecting and is going to find out later that the biggest secret he’s been keeping and planned to keep for the rest of his life is now out. 

It’s just. Lord. It’s all so painful and it’s all so good, the payoff is so good, and especial mention here of Wen Ning’s done with your shit and I’m not taking it anymore face as he brandishes Suibian at Jiang Cheng not as a weapon, exactly, but a little bit.

(He doesn’t bite but he can hurt you in other ways!)

Anyway, this isn’t actually saying anything coherent, really, except just a lot of “ahhhhh” screaming about this scene and everything in it and everyone suffering in it and just. What a moment. 

3. The excruciating conversation between Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian in episode 48. Oh my god. Ohhhh my god. Okay, so, I’m always going to be a sucker for extremely painful and difficult sibling confrontations where everyone is spilling their feelings everywhere and it’s just a lot, and this was like. I remember on my first watch when this happened and I was like. Holy shit. This. This was what I needed. This!!!! 

And then no real resolution after, orz. But that’s what fanfiction is for. And there’s glimpses of the possibility, for sure, I Believe.

But anyway! And on rewatch this conversation just gets better and also more painful because of the ways that while it is finally a conversation that Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng have sort of needed to have for, like, ever, it’s also one that rips open a lot of old wounds and it is also one that involves a painful amount of talking past each other. 

There’s a long meta post somewhere (sorry! I never know how to find the meta I’m looking for when I want it and I’m lazy right now!) about how what Jiang Cheng needs to hear is that Wei Wuxian loves and cares about him, and what he does hear is that Wei Wuxian is, once again, cutting himself off, that it was all always about debts and obligations and nothing more. And what Wei Wuxian is trying to do is release Jiang Cheng from being tied to him by those debts and obligations, to give him freedom, with I think the idea of creating a clean slate that’s not tainted by everything that went wrong before. He thinks Jiang Cheng needs to be released, but what Jiang Cheng needs is to be held.

(Both of them do! Both of them need that! Both of them need to feel loved and cherished and these things also specifically by each other!)

And I just. I just cry a lot.

But it is also beautiful, in the way that it captures so much about their relationship and the blood and hurt and tenderness and love all tied excruciatingly together, the ways that they hurt and have hurt each other, the ways they push and pull, all of Jiang Cheng’s anger and hurt spilling out everywhere in a way that I think has been building for 16 years. It’s not closure, but it is a catharsis. 

And for Wei Wuxian - I think it has to be, on some level, a relief. Even as it’s painful, even as it is exactly what he never wanted to happen, the secret is out now and he doesn’t have to hold onto it anymore. They are both - in his eyes - free. 

It’s just...a wrenching conversation that hits, like, sixty of my buttons at once and gives me a whole lot of emotions. 

4. asldkajsldfkj the flashback to Xiao Xingchen’s suicide in episode 39 and what comes after, just go ahead and kill me now. Like okay it’s probably obvious by now that I live in this hole called “Yi City, my Xue Yang feelings, and my XueXiao feelings,” and during this liveblog I specifically spilled several posts and screenshots worth of them, but god!!!! it’s just so much. Like, the entire Yi City arc is messy and painful as hell, it’s just like being put through an emotional wringer where I hurt for everyone in it, but this is the part that is especially excruciating because everyone in this emotional climax is suffering so much. 

And, like. We knew where this would end. We knew Xiao Xingchen died, and a-Qing was just killed, and at this point Xue Yang is dying. No one is getting out of this alive - but we haven’t seen yet exactly how things closed out. And the answer is “badly. it’s badly.” 

Both of these people in the very bad breakup scene are hurting. Xiao Xingchen is in agony, his life falling apart in his hands - everything he thought he knew has been a lie, he’s been tricked, played for a fool. And the hammer blows keep coming. It’s not enough that it’s Xue Yang, that Xue Yang has been fucking with him (as far as he knows), lying to him, for three years. It’s what Xue Yang reveals about what he’s done. And then it’s what Xue Yang reveals about what he’s done to Song Lan.

And on the other end - Xue Yang’s weird fake domestic life that he’s gotten attached to, Xiao Xingchen who he’s come to care about - it’s imploding, irrevocably, in front of his face. And first he tries to explain himself, sort of, but he must know it’s not going to work; and then he goes back to what he does best and lashes out. You’re going to hurt me? I’ll hurt you fifty times as much.

I think he expects a fight. Or maybe, at most, he expects Xiao Xingchen to break down, and maybe he has some vague idea that then he can say see, this is what the world is really like, now you get it and rebuild him in some kind of Xue Yang-esque image (though I don’t think he really thinks that’ll happen). He doesn’t expect Xiao Xingchen to kill himself. He doesn’t expect Xiao Xingchen to die.

And then he doesn’t expect to not be able to get him back.

It’s just. This whole arc is people destroying each other and themselves body and soul, and this is the climax of it, the breaking point. And it hurts, real bad.

And as we have established! I love to suffer.

5. Drunk Lan Wangji, take two. All of these are like. “Pain! Pain! Pain!” and here we are with some goofy antics instead. I mean, the intro to drunk!Wangji is sad in the way that it has to do with what happened to Song Lan and Xiao Xingchen (and Lan Wangji’s always feelings about those parallels ouch), but then...I mean, drunk!Wangji is just generally adorable, but here he is especially adorable. 

Chicken theft! Vandalism! Trespassing! His adorable little smile when Wei Wuxian asks if he likes rabbits and he’s like. Yeah. :) :)

And then we close out with more emotions, of course. Because it’s not The Untamed without a little bit of pain thrown in there. 

“I have regret,” Lan Wangji says, a confession of fault, and of course Wei Wuxian can’t receive it, or won’t - and Lan Wangji reacts to his attempt at absolution by basically doing his usual “I don’t want to talk about this” routine of just bluntly changing the subject (in this case “going to bed now goodnight.”).

Also the entire bit where he goes from hopelessly drunk to fighting off an opponent and then back to hopelessly drunk, like. Even drunk!Wangji can and will kick your ass. 

And all of Wei Wuxian just like. Basically trip babysitting him? Gently trying to herd him around? The gentleness and fondness of it all?

Good. All good.

6. Qiongqi Path, take one. Emotional mauling! Terrifying evil flute Wei Wuxian! Dramatic face-off between Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji! The beginning of Lan Wangji’s moral crisis! (Or, okay, not the beginning but this is definitely a major breaking point for his worldview, I think, and where his questioning really, truly begins.) 

It’s just...a lot of good. Everything with Wen Qing searching for Wen Ning’s body hurts so bad. Wei Wuxian coming stalking back into the camp with vengeance on the brain is as gloriously sexy as that vibe always is on him. And the confrontation between Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian? oh man. 

Juicy. And also. Ouch. 

(And am I a sucker for everything about ‘former allies ending up on opposite sides and one of them saying something along the lines of ‘if I’m going to die then I’d rather it was you who killed me’ yes I sure am! I didn’t cry nearly as much on my third watch but this scene is another one of my points that I think of when I think of bits in The Untamed that make me cry.

And as we’ve established already, I just love to cry.

7. God like. All of episode 19? Is that cheating? But it’s all so good! We have suffering Wei Wuxian! Mouthing off while being tortured! The entire sequence of him grabbing the sword and that moment of choice where his life turns as he answers that question (do you want revenge?) with a resounding yes? 

Lan Wangji absolutely fucking up some Wens on a desperate quest for Wei Wuxian? Teaming up with Jiang Cheng? (Do I still want to see more of that team up in that time? Yes please!!) SPOOKY FUCKING FLUTE MUSIC STARTING SIGNALING EXTREMELY OMINOUS THINGS TO COME?

Anyway it’s all very “fuck yeah, this is all quite tailored to me and my interests, thank you.”

8. Jiang Yanli coming for Jin Zixun’s life. I feel like I should just link to this analysis of this scene that really breaks it all down in detail? But god so satisfying. I mean, Jin Zixun is truly one of the most hateable characters in this show, in my opinion, and seeing Jiang Yanli step up and politely and meticulously demolish him is like. So satisfying. 

The face of a woman about to murder someone. But with words.

I really wish we could’ve seen more of this Jiang Yanli, because before this point she’s all softness and gentleness and while that’s very true of her - this part of her is also there, always, and I’d love to have seen more of it.

But like. Getting it here? Stunning. Showstopping. Love it.

9. Wei Wuxian wrecks a party, but, like, sexily. I mean, he wrecks a few parties, but I’m thinking specifically of the one in episode 26 prior to Qiongqi Path, take one. Everything about that whole scene is gold top to bottom, but what really gets me going is everything from the dramatic entrance (I’m tempted to make a list of Wei Wuxian’s best dramatic entrances) onward to “sexy menacing countdown.” It’s just all so...I mean, I’ve talked about how much I love furiously angry and on the verge of losing it Wei Wuxian, and this is some prime that material. 

(Pictured: the sexiest way anyone has ever said the word ‘two.’)

And just! The tension of it all, how it builds and builds and builds and even when it finally releases when Zixun caves there’s still all this lingering “oh fuck! that’s bad!” dread...it’s just very good. 

And I also love it as one of those key plot turning moments where it’s like. This isn’t the irrevocable break, but it’s a big one as far as ‘no going back from this.’

And like. Not just Wei Wuxian, everyone else in this scene is excellent too. Just. Mm. Good.

10. Wei Wuxian is sexy when he’s mean and that’s just the truth. Which is to say: the very bad breakup scene between him and Lan Wangji in episode 20. I’ve read two different analyses of this scene, both brilliant (by @hunxi-guilai here, and @neuxue here), and I feel like I can’t add much to that other than to reiterate that Wei Wuxian is very sexy when he’s mean, and the layers of everything going on in this scene are. Ugh!!! So good.

(I mean, also everything that comes before, I have put myself down firmly in camp “Wei Wuxian is also sexy when he murders people, you go Wei Ying, murder people as much as you want, it’s hot.” And the hug with Jiang Cheng! (THAT HUG. IT IS SUCH A HUG.))

But the confrontation between him and Lan Wangji in particular! it is so fuckin good. Honestly just read the linked analyses, I’ve got nothing I can say better that’s not in there, just a lot of “ahhhhhhh” about it all.

BONUS MENTIONS TO: basically every time Wei Wuxian Yiling Laozus, “stay and die with me.” 

[postmodernmulticoloredcloak]

The new season 11: basis for a new, ultimate cosmic resolution

“His very weird, very pervy obsession with you”

As usual, the thing the English language does where ‘you’ can mean both one person or multiple person makes a line in Supernatural ambiguous. Who is Lilith referring to? One would think ‘Dean and Sam’, because, as we know, Chuck’s endings are about the two brothers, his focus is on the two brothers... but the way Lilith looks at Dean while saying that, eyes going down Dean’s body, makes you wonder.

I didn’t really think much of this at first, assuming this is just Lilith (or... this creature built ad hoc to be Lilith, but it doesn’t make much of a difference) making a creepy comment. But now I thought about it and the comment piqued my interest because... it describes exactly Amara’s attitude towards Dean after she was released from the Mark.

Amara had a weird obsession for Dean that had creepy sexual overtones. And now it’s Chuck to be described as having an attitude of the sort towards Dean.

Well, technically it’s supposed to be Dean-and-Sam, but isn’t everything tailored around Dean when it comes to cosmic figures? Death (both iterations of it), Amara, Chuck. We have known for years that Dean is the ~center of the universe~ in the Supernatural universe, have written lots about this.

Chuck isn’t really different from the others: it’s Dean he copycats in the bunker, it’s Dean he has a "deep” (he was lying but still) conversation with. It’s Dean, after all, who speaks to primordial deities as an equal, for the good, like when he reconciled Amara and Chuck, and the bad, like when he got angry at Chuck, or when he talked rudely to Death.

Is Dean just... Like That(TM), that gods take a special interest in him? Is Chuck deliberately “imitating” Amara for some reason? Or is this a narrative thing that is going to parallel Chuck with Amara as she was, and - presumably - follow Chuck as he grows and becomes his better self, like Amara did after her experience with Dean?

The simplest answer would be the latter - Chuck is the new Amara, and he’s going to go through a similar journey of self-betterment and appreciation of humanity with its freedom. Amara gave up on her plan to re-build the world in her image, substituting free will with the “bliss” she promised.

Chuck will have to give up on his “story”, accept Dean and Sam and everyone else as people instead of characters, let them have freedom instead of shitty narrative symmetry.

After all, the reason the story wasn’t over after 11x23 Alpha And Omega (or, well, the way the episode needed to be since the show was renewed for more seasons :p) is because Amara learnt something and changed, but Chuck didn’t, as she herself recently told Chuck. All the emotional labor in dealing with Amara and Chuck’s family issues was made by Dean; Chuck didn’t even consider the possibility of talking with Amara as a viable way.

Dean succeeded because he empathized with Amara, something Chuck couldn’t do. In fact, look at 15x05: “Ashley” was supposed to seduce Dean, but that part of the plan failed because Dean empathized with her, he saw her as a traumatized person to emotionally connect to, not a sexual object: which is basically what happened with him and Amara, as he resisted her attempt at “seduction” and ultimately connected with her in an emotional way based on empathy.

It does seem that the “Ashley” plot was sort of written with Amara in mind. A failed seduction where Dean connects with the woman in a ‘familial’ way rather than sexual (heck, Ashley was young, Amara literally started as a child - “you are very maternal”...), and - while I know that Sam’s nightmares are about the times each brother got closest to killing the other, so the scenarios to pick from aren’t infinite - I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the Mark of Cain appears on screen now, not after Amara was shown in a situation where she was undressed, and the mark on her skin visible. We are supposed to think back to Amara’s and Dean’s connection.

And, of course, the werewolf brothers plot callbacks heavily to 11x17 Red Meat. 11x17 was Dabb’s clever ambiguity fest on romantic and sibling bonds, and now the werewolf brothers had incestuous undertones. Red Meat was about the brothers’ ~toxic codependency~ (I’m sorry, the expression has been used and overused to the point I can’t really take that seriously :p) and a subtle (although maybe too subtle considering how a lot of people were pretty confused by it lmao) critique of the whole bibro/early-season-idealization angle. Now Yockey just makes textual what was subtextual before.

Red Meat was the hamster wheel, and in season 11 it was already clear how ugly and unsustainable it was. There was a layer of “...what” to Red Meat too, things felt weird (how could Sam physically do that? how come Billie was certain that it was Dean’s time to go and instead he lived?); Sam and Dean didn’t question things back then, but now (now that Chuck is incapacitated in some way and probably that’s affecting the effectiveness of his writing) even they realized that the case with Ashley and the werewolves was “weird”.

And let’s not forget, Red Meat happened in the middle of the Lucifer-possessing-Cas arc... another ‘breakup’ of sorts that highlighted Cas’ feelings of inadequacy and low self-esteem.

[we-pay-for-everything]

If you could ass Buffy to ANY AtS episode which one would it be and why? :)

Okay, I really took my time with this one (I was side-tracked by Reign - what a trash show). If I could ass Buffy (lmao), to any episode... hmm... this is payback for the Dawn question, isn’t it? I can’t choose! I don’t want her in any episode!

I feel so tempted to say NFA, because, reasons, but... how would she fit in the episode? Would she fight alongside Angel? Nah, I don’t want that. She’s not part of the team. Spike isn’t either, but oh well...

I’m gonna rule out any episode from season 1, because it’s too soon after their break-up (she wouldn’t add anything to the story, and their friendship was still underdeveloped, plus she’s already in two episodes that season); season 4 because that season has a certain ambiance that Buffy would disturb, and Buffy and Angel already meet in Chosen; and season 5, due to Spike and the fact that I don’t think Buffy fits there, at Wolfram&Hart (plus, it’s too soon after Chosen). 

(Incidentally, I just remembered two episodes it would been fun to include her in: Spin the Bottle, because hello teenage Buffy, and Smile Time, because imagine her reaction to puppet!Angel!) That means seasons 2 and 3 are the best ones for a crossover. Makes sense too with Angel and Buffy’s depressive arcs, plus the additions of Connor and Dawn. 

I just can’t imagine Buffy in any major episode. Her presence in IWRY was very specific because that episode was tailored made for her. Her presence in Sanctuary was less pleasant but made sense as a response to something which happened to her. It’s hard to recreate these circumstances in other episodes... 

After further consideration, I don’t think I want Buffy to be in season 2. Angel’s arc is too sensitive and something he needs to go through alone, without Buffy’s considerable influence. Also, it doesn’t make much sense for Buffy to gate-crash any other episodes after Epiphany, as she already sees Angel in Forever,

This means season 3, by default, is the best season for a reunion, which feels right considering Angel and Buffy meet off-screen, Buffy lacks emotional support on her own show, and Angel acts out of character most of season 3. But which episode to choose? Fredless (when their off-screen meeting takes place) is bad timing, the Connor or the Wesley trilogies are bad choices too. 

I think Dad, Double or Nothing, and The Price are good episodes for Buffy to see Angel. All of the episodes are irrelevant so Buffy’s presence would add meaning to them; in all of the episodes Angel is facing the aftermath of something big (Connor’s birth or loss), Buffy’s presence doesn’t take anything away from those episodes or disturb their integrity. Now, the question is, when does Angel need Buffy more? After Connor’s abduction, naturally. But would the timing be right for Buffy? When does Buffy need Angel the most? Dad coincides with Wrecked or Gone, and Double or Nothing and The Price with Normal Again or Entropy. I think Buffy needs Angel the most after sleeping with Spike; and in Entropy they weren’t together anymore, plus Buffy was at a crucial point in her arc. 

So *drum rolls* after a lengthy consideration I choose... Dad. Now, don’t be too disappointed with the choice! I know it feels underwhelming, but think about the possibilites! Angel is absolutely ecstatic and having an out of body experience because of Connor’s birth. He needs someone to tell him he can raise Connor, someone who understands the burden of being different and responsible for the world. Coincidentally, there are enemies after Connor, so Angel needs help with that as well. Buffy, on the other hand, is struggling with what she’s done (Spike) and in a very vulnerable state. It’s ironic how one of the lowest points of Buffy’s life happens at one of the highest points of Angel’s. However, this contrast would make things interesting. Buffy would struggle between resenting Angel for his happiness, and being happy for him. Connor, an innocent baby, could bring her some joy, and helping Connor by destroying his enemies would give her some purpose and self-esteem boost. Buffy, in return, could tether Angel to reality, walk him through the issues Angel didn’t truly share with anyone else; issues like his destiny, lack of parenting skills, loss of Darla, his vampirism, etc. It could be Angel’s version of Forever, with a reversal of Buffy and Angel’s roles. 

Wow. I’m surprised with my own choice, but also too lazy to find another one? I just don’t want Buffy in a major episode, for better or for worse, because I don’t know how that would have, hypothetically, changed things. Buffy’s role in Angel’s life, after their breakup, is one of love and support, offered occasionally due to their promise to stay out of each other’s lives. It’s only natural, in my opinion, for Buffy and Angel to see each other in less significant episodes (Chosen being an exception). Thanks for the ask! Let me know what you think!