#the narrative already give us an answer to this - THE LANNISTERS but more specifically TYWIN and GREGOR and AMORY

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

Prince Rhaegar as a character often gets some deserved criticism - and a lot of underserved hate. And one of the things that I think he unfairly gets blamed for is Elia Martell's tragedy. Elia's death is one of the primary objections people have towards Rhaegar and Lyanna being depicted as a romance, with readers believing that if they were just tragic lovers, then that diminishes Elia's own tragedy.

I...disagree. It is understandable (and honestly right) that readers would rally behind Elia. Not only was she horribly brutalized and murdered, but her children suffered absolutely terrible fates as well.

However, in trying to center Rhaegar and Lyanna's doomed dalliance in this, a lot of readers are missing the answer that has been already provided to us within the narrative. Not only that, but this line of thinking also ignores the key context in which Elia's senseless murder is portrayed.

As far as the text goes, Elia’s death is laid squarely at the feet of Tywin Lannister and his men, Ser Gregor Clegane and Ser Amory Lorch. It's House Lannister's burden to bear.

Doran for one, Elia's brother, directly blames Tywin Lannister:

“You mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children.”

The Princess in the Tower, AFFC

Even Oberyn agrees:

“Dwarf,” said the Red Viper, in a tone grown markedly less cordial, “spare me your Lannister lies. Is it sheep you take us for, or fools? My brother is not a bloodthirsty man, but neither has he been asleep for sixteen years. Jon Arryn came to Sunspear the year after Robert took the throne, and you can be sure that he was questioned closely. Him, and a hundred more. I did not come for some mummer’s show of an inquiry. I came for justice for Elia and her children, and I will have it. Starting with this lummox Gregor Clegane … but not, I think, ending there. Before he dies, the Enormity That Rides will tell me whence came his orders, please assure your lord father of that.” He smiled. “An old septon once claimed I was living proof of the goodness of the gods. Do you know why that is, Imp?”

Tyrion IV, ASOS

“Is that the game we are playing?” Tyrion rubbed at his scarred nose. He had nothing to lose by telling Oberyn the truth. “There was a bear at Harrenhal, and it did kill Ser Amory Lorch.” “How sad for him,” said the Red Viper. “And for you. Do all noseless men lie so badly, I wonder?” “I am not lying. Ser Amory dragged Princess Rhaenys out from under her father’s bed and stabbed her to death. He had some men-at-arms with him, but I do not know their names.” He leaned forward. “It was Ser Gregor Clegane who smashed Prince Aegon’s head against a wall and raped your sister Elia with his blood and brains still on his hands.” “What is this, now? Truth, from a Lannister?” Oberyn smiled coldly. “Your father gave the commands, yes?” “No.” He spoke the lie without hesitation, and never stopped to ask himself why he should. The Dornishman raised one thin black eyebrow. “Such a dutiful son. And such a very feeble lie. It was Lord Tywin who presented my sister’s children to King Robert all wrapped up in crimson Lannister cloaks.”

Tyrion IX, ASOS

“Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne,” the Red Viper hissed. “You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children…“I came to hear you confess.”

Tyrion X, ASOS

Varys and Tyrion both understand that House Martell (but more specifically Doran) hates the Lannisters.

“The Dornishmen thus far have held aloof from these wars. Doran Martell has called his banners, but no more. His hatred for House Lannister is well known, and it is commonly thought he will join Lord Renly. You wish to dissuade him.” “All this is obvious,” said Tyrion. “The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe.” “My father once told me that a lord never lets sentiment get in the way of ambition … and it happens we have an empty seat on the small council, now that Lord Janos has taken the black.” “A council seat is not to be despised,” Varys admitted, “yet will it be enough to make a proud man forget his sister’s murder?” “Why forget?” Tyrion smiled. “I’ve promised to deliver his sister’s killers, alive or dead, as he prefers. After the war is done, to be sure.” Varys gave him a shrewd look. “My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a … certain name … when they came for her.” “Is a secret still a secret if everyone knows it?” In Casterly Rock, it was common knowledge that Gregor Clegane had killed Elia and her babe. They said he had raped the princess with her son’s blood and brains still on his hands. “This secret is your lord father’s sworn man.” “My father would be the first to tell you that fifty thousand Dornishmen are worth one rabid dog.” Varys stroked a powdered cheek. “And if Prince Doran demands the blood of the lord who gave the command as well as the knight who did the deed …” “Robert Baratheon led the rebellion. All commands came from him, in the end.” “Robert was not at King’s Landing.” “Neither was Doran Martell.”

Tyrion IV, ACOK

Really, all the nobles know where to look at when assigning blame for Elia's murder. Tywin.

“Prince Doran comes at my son’s invitation,” Lord Tywin said calmly, “not only to join in our celebration, but to claim his seat on this council, and the justice Robert denied him for the murder of his sister Elia and her children.” Tyrion watched the faces of the Lords Tyrell, Redwyne, and Rowan, wondering if any of the three would be bold enough to say, “But Lord Tywin, wasn’t it you who presented the bodies to Robert, all wrapped up in Lannister cloaks?” None of them did, but it was there on their faces all the same. Redwyne does not give a fig, he thought, but Rowan looks fit to gag.

Tywin, for the most part, quite shamelessly tries to disassociate himself from his own moral failings; this is nothing new, because he follows this same MO with squarely blaming the Freys for the Red Wedding even though he played an integral part in planning for it.

“Then why did the Mountain kill her?” “Because I did not tell him to spare her. I doubt I mentioned her at all. I had more pressing concerns. Ned Stark’s van was rushing south from the Trident, and I feared it might come to swords between us. And it was in Aerys to murder Jaime, with no more cause than spite. That was the thing I feared most. That, and what Jaime himself might do.” He closed a fist. “Nor did I yet grasp what I had in Gregor Clegane, only that he was huge and terrible in battle. The rape … even you will not accuse me of giving that command, I would hope. Ser Amory was almost as bestial with Rhaenys. I asked him afterward why it had required half a hundred thrusts to kill a girl of … two? Three? He said she’d kicked him and would not stop screaming. If Lorch had half the wits the gods gave a turnip, he would have calmed her with a few sweet words and used a soft silk pillow.” His mouth twisted in distaste. “The blood was in him.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

“And when Oberyn demands the justice he’s come for?” “I will tell him that Ser Amory Lorch killed Elia and her children,” Lord Tywin said calmly. “So will you, if he asks.” “Ser Amory Lorch is dead,” Tyrion said flatly. “Precisely. Vargo Hoat had Ser Amory torn apart by a bear after the fall of Harrenhal. That ought to be sufficiently grisly to appease even Oberyn Martell.” “You may call that justice …” “It is justice. It was Ser Amory who brought me the girl’s body, if you must know. He found her hiding under her father’s bed, as if she believed Rhaegar could still protect her. Princess Elia and the babe were in the nursery a floor below.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

Tywin tries to alleviate himself of any responsibility by blaming his men, but the narrative actively calls bullshit on this (through Tywin's own son no less).

So the narrative shows through multiple POVs that Elia's murder is contextualized exclusively as a failing on Tywin Lannister and his men; not only was it a moral failing, but Tyrion also questions if it was politically necessary in the first place. It's also important to note that ASOS is when we really dive into the matter of Elia and her children (mostly through Oberyn), but we also have to remember that this is the same book as the Red Wedding. The Red Wedding, another one of Tywin's senseless massacres that he tries to postulate as politically necessary.

So, we have agreed that the blame and context for Elia's (and her children's) murder is presented through the lens of Tywin as an immoral politician who often makes politically unnecessary moves. But then we ask ourselves, can the responsibility of this tragedy be extended? Well, yes it can. And it has been in the text.

Ser Barristan extends this tragedy beyond Tywin and his men

...to King Robert.

“Prince Rhaegar had two children,” Ser Barristan told him. “Rhaenys was a little girl, Aegon a babe in arms. When Tywin Lannister took King’s Landing, his men killed both of them. He served the bloody bodies up in crimson cloaks, a gift for the new king.” And what did Robert say when he saw them? Did he smile? Barristan Selmy had been badly wounded on the Trident, so he had been spared the sight of Lord Tywin’s gift, but oft he wondered. If I had seen him smile over the red ruins of Rhaegar’s children, no army on this earth could have stopped me from killing him. “I will not suffer the murder of children. Accept that, or I’ll have no part of this.”

The Kingbreaker, ADWD

Ned Stark does as well.

Ned did not feign surprise; Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.” Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.

Eddard II, AGOT

And so does Tywin, who uses Robert's tacit approval as justification for this senseless act.

Lord Tywin stared at him as if he had lost his wits. “You deserve that motley, then. We had come late to Robert’s cause. It was necessary to demonstrate our loyalty. When I laid those bodies before the throne, no man could doubt that we had forsaken House Targaryen forever. And Robert’s relief was palpable. As stupid as he was, even he knew that Rhaegar’s children had to die if his throne was ever to be secure. Yet he saw himself as a hero, and heroes do not kill children.” His father shrugged. “I grant you, it was done too brutally. Elia need not have been harmed at all, that was sheer folly. By herself she was nothing.”

Tyrion VI, ASOS

So if we can't extend the blame to Rhaegar, because the narrative doesn't do so either, what can we hold him responsible for? Let's take a step back and look at Rhaegar's culpability in this whole thing.

Was Rhaegar (and Lyanna) responsible for starting the war that would eventually lead to Elia's murder?

No. GRRM doesn't think so. The war actually started when King Aerys murdered the Lord of Winterfell and his heir, a bunch of other northern nobles, and then called for the heads of Robert Baratheon (Lord of Storm's End) and Ned Stark (the new Lord of Winterfell). Aerys broke the feudal contract, and so Jon Arryn declared war.

I don't think I would have stayed loyal to the Mad King. Do I think they were justified? Yes, and no. [...] There was no doubt that the Mad King was mad. He was paranoid and he was abusing his power. And Westeros has no Magna Carta or anything like that. There was no way to handle this within the rule of law. But was what they do justified? Especially when you consider that it was triggered by a personal grievance. The execution of Ned's father and brother was really a thing that radicalized Ned and put him in opposition to it. Robert was just rolling for a fight and didn't like the fact that he'd lost his girlfriend. So you know, the personal informs the political.

source

Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance was merely the spark - it led to a misunderstanding that caused Brandon Stark to ride to Kingslanding. What really caused the war was Aerys' Targaryens subsequent actions as the king. So if we want to blame someone for causing the chain of events that led to Elia's death as well as her children's, the author himself says to blame Aerys; even though I don't think this is right either because we once again stray from the necessary (and sole) context of Elia's murder - Tywin's bloody hands.

Fine. Rhaegar was not responsible for the war. But surely he is responsible for leaving Elia in King's Landing, right in the clutches of Mad King Aerys. Well, this again, is not true. As far as Rhaegar knew, Elia was in Dragonstone with Aegon and Rhaenys where he left them.

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon’s turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon.

“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire

At some point, Elia was called to King's Landing. And it was Aerys who kept her hostage there as insurance against possible Dornish betrayal (remember, he was paranoid).

Side Note: Aerys kept another important political hostage in King's Landing along with Elia - Jaime Lannister; this is to deter anyone from trying to blame Jaime for doing nothing. He was a teenager and a hostage himself!

“My Sworn Brothers were all away, you see, but Aerys liked to keep me close. I was my father’s son, so he did not trust me. He wanted me where Varys could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.” He remembered how Rossart’s eyes would shine when he unrolled his maps to show where the substance must be placed. Garigus and Belis were the same. “Rhaegar met Robert on the Trident, and you know what happened there. When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the Trident, but he thought he could keep Dorne loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. The traitors want my city, I heard him tell Rossart, but I’ll give them naught but ashes. Let Robert be king over charred bones and cooked meat. The Targaryens never bury their dead, they burn them. Aerys meant to have the greatest funeral pyre of them all. Though if truth be told, I do not believe he truly expected to die. Like Aerion Brightfire before him, Aerys thought the fire would transform him … that he would rise again, reborn as a dragon, and turn all his enemies to ash.

Jaime V, ASOS

Ok, fine. So Rhaegar did not abandon her with Aerys then run off to Lyanna. But he should have done something when he came back, right? Why didn't he leave more Kings Guard with Elia and the children?

Well....this is a war. The knights of the KG are important assets on the battle field. Kings Landing, at the time, was not the most dangerous location. The KG were better off at the Trident, as a victory there would protect those who were left behind in KL.

And it's not that Rhaegar didn't do anything. Beyond going off to lead the battle himself, he tried to make moves that would help those who were back in KL (Elia and the children included).

He floated in heat, in memory. “After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.

Jaime V ASOS

And Jaime's POV once again shows us that Rhaegar banked on victory at the Trident, and was fully expecting to come back to KL and amend the fraught political situation.

The day had been windy when he said farewell to Rhaegar, in the yard of the Red Keep. The prince had donned his night-black armor, with the three-headed dragon picked out in rubies on his breastplate. “Your Grace,” Jaime had pleaded, “let Darry stay to guard the king this once, or Ser Barristan. Their cloaks are as white as mine.” Prince Rhaegar shook his head. “My royal sire fears your father more than he does our cousin Robert. He wants you close, so Lord Tywin cannot harm him. I dare not take that crutch away from him at such an hour.” Jaime’s anger had risen up in his throat. “I am not a crutch. I am a knight of the Kingsguard.” “Then guard the king,” Ser Jon Darry snapped at him. “When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey.” Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime’s shoulder. “When this battle’s done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but … well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return.”

Jaime I, AFFC

So Rhaegar wasn't leaving with no care about what happened back in King's Landing. We don't know what he wanted to do with Aerys, Elia, Lyanna, and the aftermath of the war because he died at the Trident. But we do know that he, at the very least, was planning to do something.

So we can't blame Rhaegar (and Lyanna) for starting the war and we can't blame him either for abandoning Elia in King's Landing with no care about what happens next. So, again, what can we blame him for?

“It's not entirely correct that the Martells stayed out of the war. Rhaegar had Dornish troops with him on the Trident, under the command of Prince Lewyn of the Kingsguard. However, the Dornishmen did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of anger at his treatment of Elia, in part because of Prince Doran's innate caution.”

SSM, 09/11/1999

GRRM states that Dorne was angry about Rhaegar's treatment of Elia. What is this treatment, though?

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap.

Eddard XV, AGOT

Specifically, Rhaegar riding past Elia to crown Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty. Yes, that is a humiliation. And it's undeniable that no one was happy.

The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia’s delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar’s cause…Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna’s brothers seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister’s honor…Eddard Stark, Brandon’s younger brother and a close friend to Lord Robert, was calmer but no more pleased.

“The Year of the False Spring”, The World of Ice and Fire

But, humiliating Elia is not the same thing as being responsible for her death. The narrative never equates these two things in any way. Elia's death is about Tywin's immoral and blood thirsty political actions. It's about Dorne's desire for justice (or is it vengeance?) which they know they will not get from the Lannister regime. House Lannister's downfall in King's Landing will be brought about by Prince Aegon's rise - Aegon who is proclaiming to be the long lost son of Prince Rhaegar, and who is being supported by House Martell as of now.

We can criticize Rhaegar for some things, but Elia's death is surely not one of them.

[astradrifting]

This is kind of inspired by this recent ask I sent to @esther-dot about Jon’s characterisation and Jonsa shippers’ apparent disregard for it, because it made me think of another part of Jon’s characterisation that is really integral to who he is. Mainly, that Jon really loves his brothers. Especially Robb. His rival and best friend and constant companion. Jon envies him, competes with him, buried a formative traumatic memory where he was deeply hurt by him... but ultimately loves him. Complex relationships with his brothers, both the Starks and his Night’s Watch brothers, are a running theme in Jon’s chapters.

Speaking of Jon’s brothers...

Aegon VI and Robb have a lot of potential parallels, actually. The “Young” moniker, red-haired counselors who are also their parents, trained to be the heir to a great kingdom from a young age, the barely younger half-brother Jon borne of their father’s dishonour of their mother… one that they might both have a good relationship with despite that?

The show tried to play with Jon ‘accepting’ his Targaryen lineage through the jonerice romance, very unconvincingly because it was simultaneously undermining it at every opportunity, in what was maybe a half-assed attempt at Pol!Jon (”They’ll all come to see you for what you are” isn’t anything but a threat in all contexts).

Jon will ultimately choose the Starks over everything else, that’s not really a question. But if Jon were to genuinely connect with another Targaryen, it’d likely be easier for him to find kinship with a half-brother than with an aunt - he has a basis for positive relationships with trueborn half-brothers, while the only aunt figure he’s ever known about is a) long dead and b) actually his mother. I think it’d both make more sense and be more compelling for GRRM to leverage Jon’s existing complex relationships with brotherhood by having him interact with and build a relationship with Aegon, than a rushed and out-of-character romance with Dany. 

Jon also is already primed to believe that Aegon is the real deal, that he was saved as a baby, because he’s already done the exact same thing himself - he swapped out a baby of royal blood who was in danger for a common-born boy, and then sent him halfway across the world for safety (side note: if Septa Lemore is Ashara, and if the baby was actually Ashara’s son as theorised here by @agentrouka-blog, that would just strengthen the parallel, because it would be his body double’s mother caring for him, as Gilly has to do for Mance’s son).

They’re definitely going to come into conflict first - politically, Jon will likely be in a position of power in the North by the time they meet, maybe as the KitN through Robb’s will or regent for Rickon, and probably will fight for Northern independence, while Aegon is fighting to be king of the Seven Kingdoms, not 6. Personally, it will be hard to get past the fact that Jon is the direct result of Rhaegar dishonouring Elia, plus that the Kingsguard who should have been protecting her were all stationed in Dorne, guarding Jon’s mother (in whatever capacity). But these interactions, a conflict and eventual friendship/brotherhood between them, would all be a lot more layered than jonerice can really offer. If a relationship between Jon and Dany was truly all that GRRM has been building up to, then there would have been no need for R+L=J - it adds nothing to that storyline, it doesn’t even make it a forbidden romance, because aunt-nephew is hardly the worst incest the Targaryens have engaged in.

It’s almost inevitable that Da*nerys is going to kill Aegon VI/Young Griff in the books, likely by burning him with dragonfire, in the Second Dance of the Dragons. The weird Dragonpit meeting in the show was very contrived, but it does make sense for Dany to meet the ruler on the Iron Throne at least once in a semi-peaceful context. In the show, she used her dragons only to intimidate Cersei, but she didn’t have a personal grievance with her. Aegon is in much more danger during such a meeting. After all she will think he is a pretender, and she doesn’t much care for the rules of safe conduct, as she showed to the envoys from Yunkai.

Dany shrugged, and said, "Dracarys."

The dragons answered. Rhaegal hissed and smoked, Viserion snapped, and Drogon spat swirling red-black flame. It touched the drape of Grazdan's tokar, and the silk caught in half a heartbeat. 

[...]

"You swore I should have safe conduct!" the Yunkish envoy wailed.

"Do all the Yunkai'i whine so over a singed tokar? I shall buy you a new one... if you deliver up your slaves within three days. Elsewise, Drogon shall give you a warmer kiss." She wrinkled her nose. "You've soiled yourself. Take your gold and go, and see that the Wise Masters hear my message."

(ASOS, Dany IV)

"Ah, there is the thorn in the bower, my queen," said Hizdahr zo Loraq. "Sad to say, Yunkai has no faith in your promises. They keep plucking the same string on the harp, about some envoy that your dragons set on fire."

"Only his tokar was burned," said Dany scornfully.

(ADWD, Dany VI)

So Dany will burn the Blackfyre pretender, and everyone will be happy and cheer to see the rightful queen, the last Targaryen, Slayer of Lies, Breaker of Chains, Insert-The-Million-Other-Titles-Here. Right?

Except how would she prove that he’s an imposter? She can’t exactly roll up with an Alt Shift X video pointing out that Illyrio has said some weird things about Aegon. Is Varys going to have an attack of remorse and explain his whole plot, complete with Blackfyre family tree? Or maybe she’ll explain that she went on a vision quest in Qarth and Aegon totally matches up with the vague symbolism that a bunch of drugged up warlocks told her before she set them on fire?

I don’t think it’s going to matter if Aegon is fake or not, and we might never find out either way. The mystery of his identity isn’t his main narrative, and all of his significance to the story and to multiple other characters is removed if he’s proved to not be Aegon VI. Him being proved fake would just make this plotline a weird, unnecessary digression on Dany’s journey to being the righteous and true queen, his death just another #girlboss moment for her. That’s definitely going to be her perception of it, but once she reaches Westeros we won’t have to rely on only her POV of her actions. History is written by the winners, and no one’s going to miss that it’s a lot more convenient for Dany if the boy with a stronger claim than her turns out to have been fake all along. Arianne and the Dornish are definitely not going to take it lying down, and neither is Jon. He’s not going to fall in love with the woman who murdered his brother, especially by burning him alive. ADWD has plenty to say about how much he hates death by fire.

“Men say that freezing to death is almost peaceful. Fire, though … do you see the candle, Gilly?”

She looked at the flame. “Yes.”

“Touch it. Put your hand over the flame.”

Her big brown eyes grew bigger still. She did not move.

“Do it.” Kill the boy. “Now.”

Trembling, the girl reached out her hand, held it well above the flickering candle flame.

“Down. Let it kiss you.”

Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob.

“Fire is a cruel way to die. Dalla died to give this child life, but you have nourished him, cherished him. You saved your own boy from the ice. Now save hers from the fire.”

(ADWD, Jon II)

Funnily enough, the same fire as a kiss imagery from Dany burning the envoy’s tokar appeared there too, also used as a threat. 

If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. [...] What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

(ADWD, Jon IX)

So Aegon’s death is not going to be a triumphant victory for Dany, after which everyone proclaims her the true queen. It’s likely to just solidify opposition to her, from every corner of Westeros. If it happens during a summit or negotiation, it’d be even more of a tragic parallel to Robb and the Red Wedding; the young king murdered off of the battlefield, at an event where he was promised safe conduct. Featuring Dany in the role of Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister. Tywin’s already died a very undignified death, and Roose Bolton looks to be on his way too.

I think the tragedy of Aegon’s death would also hit harder if we see it through Jon, as a main POV, or at least the aftermath of it. Jon was integral at the Dragonpit meeting after all, and probably would be at a peace summit or negotiation between the leaders of Westeros and the invading force.

In ASOS, there’s a curious lack of Jon’s reaction to Robb’s death. We see his initial reaction to Bran and Rickon’s supposed deaths when he gets back to Castle Black, but he doesn’t even know about Robb’s death until Stannis arrives to defeat the wildlings, and we’re not shown the moment he’s told about it. He barely even thinks about it, not even a mention until he meets with Stannis on top of the Wall:

“Your brother was the rightful Lord of Winterfell. If he had stayed home and done his duty, instead of crowning himself and riding off to conquer the riverlands, he might be alive today. Be that as it may. You are not Robb, no more than I am Robert.”

The harsh words had blown away whatever sympathy Jon might have had for Stannis. “I loved my brother,” he said.

(ASOS, Jon XI)

And that’s literally all we get that is specifically about Robb’s death - the rest of Jon’s chapters, his guilt and grief is about the loss of all his siblings, and the idea of stealing Winterfell from them. It doesn’t really make sense for him to not think about it at all, considering how close they were. This reminds me of how he has a non-reaction to Sansa’s marriage to Tyrion as well, as talked about in this post by @agentrouka-blog. Part of this could be Jon’s tendency towards denial and suppression of all his feelings, but it also points to GRRM explicitly obscuring his reaction - perhaps because he’s going to explore it in the wake of another brother dying a very similar death? One that this time he’ll be there to witness?

[ginmo]

Okay this is going to be long haha. As a disclaimer, Jaime can still die. This just explains why I’ve become skeptical over that fate.

I have not been given a straight answer to Jaime’s fate by any of the people I have spoken with, and I can’t be too detailed in my explanations because of reasons, but this is what I can say:

1. Jaime doesn’t die in the battle of WF. I’m making this clear because this has become popular spec. Now when I say die, I mean permanently dead, not resurrection dead. I have no info about any resurrections, so it’s entirely possible he can “die” and still come back. All I know is that Jaime is definitely alive after the battle of WF, so don’t listen to any leaker who says his final farewell is during that battle. I know of a specific event (actually, two of them) that happens after the WF battle, and he’s very much alive for it.

2. Jaime is in all 6 episodes, and no, that information is NOT taken from Nikolaj’s contract. I can say this with 99% confidence.It’s possible he could be in less depending on how they move scenes around in post production, but at least during filming, every person I spoke with was certain he was in every episode.

3. Jaime is not dead during Tyrion’s trial in episode 6. Tyrion’s trial is AFTER the KL battle.......... sooooo.................

4. Okay this really isn’t anything lol but, they were all pretty excited to tell me what happens, and wanting to tell me “so badly!” while… knowing I want him to live. Like I said, that doesn’t mean much, but I’m giving them the benefit of the doubt and assuming they’re not, like, Satan or something. “Omg you want him to live so I’m so excited for you to see him DIE! :D!!”

Recent Observations:

This isn’t what I’ve been personally told, but this is what I have observed in fandom over the past few months. Take all of this with a grain of salt. I’m only including these because they got my attention, considering what I know.

1. There have been a couple randos that have popped into fandom just to say that everyone is wrong about Jaime because he lives and then they poof. Like I said, take this with a grain of a salt. It probably is nothing, but they always stood out to me as suspicious.

2. Recently, someone said they spoke with a family friend and that friend said a person everyone thought would live ends up dying and someone who was “seemingly marked by death from the beginning” would survive. This actually can’t really be argued for any character. Not every character has been around since the beginning, and only a handful have been “marked by death” in the eyes of fandom.

Speaking on average: Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Sam… all of them have fairly uncertain fates or the assumption of survival. Minor characters? No one is going to care so much about their fate to give a spoiler about it (“oh man dude! Melisandre LIVES! People will freak!”) or the others haven’t been around since the beginning… IMO, there are only two characters that fit that description: the twins. Considering I have good reason to believe Jaime may actually have a chance at survival, and since literally every sector of the GoT fandom, including the JB fandom, he's talked about as if he’s already dead, I’m going to make an assumption here and apply that to Jaime. Out of the twins, Jaime has actual potential set up for survival, Cersei not so much.

Narrative:

As much as Jaime’s death would fit the traditional mold for the path he is currently on, there is setup for a possible survival in the books and the show. I had always envisioned his fate going either way, and was confused why people would be completely convinced of death or survival. I felt both had set up? I went from thinking he was doomed, to thinking he would survive, to being totally unsure, back to thinking he’s dead again, and now I’m residing in survival camp.... for now, at least lol.

I could go on and on and on with the support in the books. I could describe a different interpretation to his weirwood dream, dig up quotes about how he’s yearning for fatherhood and a married life and how he thinks he will only ever be a warrior, explain how the hand chop was his “death,” moan about how eye-roll worthy it is for him to be a Stark prop. I can find evidence to argue that he’s simultaneously being molded into a leader and heir and therefore it would be a wasteful death that accomplish nothing. I can also blab about how Brienne is basically his plot armor because of how ridiculously redundant and meaningless it would be for HER arc if another person were to die in her arms and leave her exactly where she started (actually, no, I’ll probably still talk about this with the show evidence because it annoys me). But since this is a somewhat show-themed post, the question being about season 8, I’ll just stick with the show evidence.

Show Evidence:

1. Watch: Jaime and Tywin’s conversation #1 , conversation #2, conversation #3. Look. The show decided to include THREE SCENES about marriage and the Lannister Legacy. THREE................

“Oh but in the first one he says that he doesn’t want the Lannister legacy to fall like the Targaryens did which foreshadows the Lannisters going extinct.”

Jaime fulfilling his duty as heir has been brought up T H R E E times.

And the Targaryens went… extinct? … I mean… who are the two leads of this series? If they’re going to parallel the Targaryens in some form, then that means they definitely don’t go extinct. Baby Lannister left behind? Possible. But…

2. Jaime is removed from the KG in season 6. Why?  In the show he... didn’t need to be removed from KG so he could later on leave Cersei (even in the books he ran off while still on the KG). Brienne says Fuck Loyalty and he Fucks Loyalty anyway. They could have had him do that while still member of the KG. It was perfect setup. Tywin wants him removed so he can fulfill the Lannister legacy, Jaime eventually gets removed. What’s the point of removing him from the KG to simply lead the Lannister army for two seasons and then die if he could have been doing that anyway as LC? They removed him from the KG because he’s being molded into an heir and freed of vows for endgame. And, again, connects to the Tywin conversations.

3. Purple Wedding. Ah, one of my favorites. (<- that one kinda sucks because the youtuber edited Brienne’s walk to be more quick but you still get the point)

When Loras and Jaime are having a conversation, Jaime says, “You’ll never marry [Cersei]” and Loras responds with, “And neither will you.” Loras walks away, Jaime looks down, Brienne walks past and Jaime looks up. Keep in mind GRRM at least wrote the Cersei and Brienne portion, and it was even mentioned that they paid attention to the transitions. when filming and editing.

Minor detail to mention: the Bear and the Maiden Fair is playing in the background.

”lol that song has been used before for other people.”

Yeah... for marriages. Not only has it been consistently used for Jaime and Brienne - also season 3 when they’re captured and used as the episosde title for the bear pit- but the other times it has been used were for: the wedding feast between Tyrion and Sansa, the wedding feast between Edmure and Roslin, and then the wedding of Joffrey and Marg... and when did it play at theirs? During the Jaime and Brienne scenes, literally during and after Loras told Jaime he would never marry Cersei and then Brienne walks past and then Cersei accuses Brienne of being in love with Jaime.

“It just means Jaime won’t marry Cersei because he’ll fall in love with Brienne.”

Maybe? But he’s already simultaneously falling in love with Brienne and he was (in the show) still trying to marry Cersei? Why is a theme of marriage hammered in so often then? (like Brienne’s monologue, which I’ll get to)

Maybe I can also throw in this more tinfoily bit in. “Maybe you’re a Lannister too.”

4. “Die in the arms of the woman I love.” -sigh-. Okay, I admit, the first time I heard this I jumped on the SEE JAIME IS DEAD bandwagon and was firmly stationed on that wagon until I got info that started raising my hopes and then Brienne’s, “nothing’s more hateful than failing to protect the one you love” popped into my head and I’m like

and then “who wants to die defending a Lannister.” Yeah yeah, “who wants to die defending a Lannister” is simply foreshadowing Brienne’s love for Jaime and doesn’t necessarily mean she will die (she at least survives to episode 6, after the battle). But if you take that and mix it with “nothing’s more hateful than failing to protect the one you love” and stir it in a pot, you got yourself Brienne making a move that almost gets her killed to save Jaime and NOT fail the like 4th or 5th person just because.

That line about failing is so often overlooked. Yeah, of course it’s possible it can mean she fails again, but I’m just… even if it doesn’t foreshadow shit, it made it clear that failing the one she loves is a thing she wants to avoid so... why the hell would the story have her fail another fucking person? What’s the point? She feels like she failed her father, failed Renly, failed Catelyn (more in the books), she’ll probably feel that way after Pod bites it, let’s have her fail Jaime too! :D! Let’s also be repetitive and have a guy die in her arms again just to rip her heart out and leave her exactly where she started just for the demonic lolz (btw I never subscribed to GRRM being as blood thirsty as people make him out to be). To me, that line sounds like she’s going to do everything in her power to not let that happen ever again. There will probably be a close call where she thinks she failed but doesn’t. Jaime saved her twice, maybe she will be the knight in shining armor and save him.

“Okay  but what if she’s left with his baby? She’s not exactly where she left  off then.”

No, she’s not in the exact same spot, and that’s a scenario I definitely find plausible. However, she... still kinda is? Stripping her of the only person who has ever  genuinely loved her in that way sends a message that society is   correct- Brienne, an ugly, undesirable woman- is unworthy of love. Brienne is unworthy of a long, happy life full of love because the Gods gave him to her for just a bit, dropped a baby in her lap as a consolation prize, and took the one person who has ever genuinely loved her for who she was.Normally I would argue that GRRM isn’t writing a story that gives characters everything they deserve. And I agree with that, but I’d argue that he’s using Brienne to literally tell a message of BatB. Inner beauty triumphs, superficiality does not (Cersei being example A). The message isn’t as effective if this rejected, freakish, beast of a woman continues to feel like a failure, continues to get fucked over and remains fucked over in endgame.

Now back to “die in the arms of the woman I love.” This line was used to set up the JC downfall to the viewers, and get Jaime questioning by having Bronn say, “does she feel the same?” On the surface it’s Cersei, the subtext is Brienne. That was it’s purpose. But I tend to agree with the people who say it can also be foreshadowing. So can he still die? OF COURSE! Will I agree with the narrative decision? NO (explanation further down). Can he die and be resurrected like a literal BatB tale? YEAH! Can it mean that he dies in the arms of the woman he loves as an old man? SURE! There’s multiple interpretations here.

Going back to the last one, I find it curious that immediately before Jaime mentions his preferred way of death, Bronn said he wanted to die as an old man in his castle with children groveling at his feet for his fortune and Jaime makes a comment about how that’s boring. So, I’d find it kinda funny then if the two desires were combined. (and Jaime never said in a battle, btw. The scene he describes is romantic with no context).

5. Brienne. Don’t tOUCH ME. Okay.

a) She told Catelyn she wasn’t a Lady, told Pod she wasn’t, Cersei told her she’s a Lady whether she wants to be or not... her insecurities over being a Lady is CLEARLY a theme that the show decided to keep. And then there’s this scene. Brienne fulfills her oath by keeping the Stark girls safe and getting them North. Pod calls her my Lady, Brienne begins to say she’s not a Lady, stops herself, and then thanks Pod. why is this always ignored?? This is saying that plot is done. Brienne is done being a bodyguard (which is also made crystal clear in Season 7 when Sansa basically tells her she can protect herself and Brienne tells the Hound that Arya doesn’t need protection). Brienne’s acceptance of her title is the story saying that Brienne will move on from this dragged out af plot and will now get ready to fulfill her role as Lady/heir. So what does this have to do with Jaime? Ahem. Well who else is being groomed for the role of Lord/heir?

b) I’ve been dying for them to finally give some book canon backstory to Brienne and show her vulnerable side. I was pleased in season 5 when we were delivered a wonderful little nugget that isn’t straight book canon, but an adaptation of it. Look, the fact that they even CARED to adapt this for the show is huge. Here is the scene.

The addition of this scene is important because it’s Brienne literally telling Pod (and the viewers) that the happiest she has ever been was when all the boys wanted to marry her and take her back to their castles. It’s reminding the viewers that romance is a major theme of her arc. They had her specifically mention marriage and living a domestic life in a castle and that made her fucking happy dude. The happiest she had ever been.

Now… why? Why is that necessary if Jaime and Brienne are just destined to bang and then he bites it? If they wanted to highlight that Brienne is a sexual being that wants to be loved, they literally could have taken out the whole marriage and castles and kept it as the boys dancing with her and complimenting her and flirting with her made her happy. But no, they brought in marriage. She wants marriage, man. She secretly desires the life of a Lady, with the one she loves, and that’s okay. And do NOT tell me that her destiny is to be some bodyguard for the Starks. I already wrote like 4 paragraphs on it but deleted because… not the place. Anyway, they adapted the marriage bits because it’s something that comes up in Brienne’s chapters quite a bit. (The lions on the cloak as she watched the boy she was to marry walk away and Jaime putting a cloak around her shoulders are probably my favorites).

“But what if they marry and then he dies!”

Oh, a little spoiler: Let’s just say it doesn’t seem likely they marry on screen. Possible, but very unlikely. So if they marry, marriage would have to be implied after the show... -whispers- which means he would have to survive.

Also, I already explained why I personally find that an ineffective ending, but again, is it possible that’s the version being told? Hell yeah it is. This is why I’m not completely convinced of his survival, and why I have always been open-minded about his death, and have gone back and forth depending on how much I trust the quality of writing. In most redemption arc narratives the character dies because death itself is something they have avoided, usually by obtaining power or through an exploration of a courage theme. Jaime has already proven he’s willing to sacrifice himself and has accepted his death on many different occasions (ex: he jumped into a bear pit with one hand and no weapon with literally no plan, and on the show he charged a fire breathing dragon head on with nothing but a spear I mean....), so what does his death as a knight really accomplish for his character besides, “it’s TRADITIONAL! Redemption = only DEATH! Knightly honor = only DEATH!” (I can feel myself going down a rabbit hole by wanting to talk about the hand chop so I’m going to stfu now because this is getting ridiculously long.)

“GoT has been inconsistent in the past and sometimes they do things that make no sense.”

I know, and it’s still entirely possible the execution of this story is trash and everything was pointless. That argument could apply to literally everything I say in this post. But at the same time, GoT is shit at being subtle, and when they want to drive a point or theme home, they do, even if it’s sloppy. (and yeah, like mentioned, I see this in the books as well... I’m not basing my opinion entirely on the show. It’s just if I add book bits on here, it’s going to get even more boring than it currently is lol.)

“Gin, sorry, I just disagree with you.”

That’s okay! It’s possible I end up changing my mind 50 more times, based off of the info coming in. Guys, I just think this story can be DIFFERENT. I’m so goddamn tired of the same, predictable narratives. And also because, like I said, I see potential set up for survival. I see all of the different interpretations. I’m tired of seeing people act all arrogant, like the answer is already there, when I see evidence for at least the possibility of something different.

Like we can’t even fucking discuss his survival in fandom, and if someone even BREATHES it they’re called delusional or in denial, even by their fellow JB shippers. NO? I just see multiple paths and interpretations?? And... to make it even more confusing I’ve been receiving optimistic hints that have raised my hopes??????? Fuck, I’m basically a victim here because I had been comfortable assuming the worst lol. 

I’m legit procrastinating on posting this because I have anxiety putting it out there. Discussion of his survival is that unpopular.

[joannalannister]

Do you subscribe to the theory that Tyrion might lose his tongue? The Lannister children lost things that represent who they are and where their pride and strengths come from--Jaime lost his sword hand, Cersei lost the people's admiration of her beauty during her walk. And Tyrion has a way with words. What do you think? Love reading your metas, specifically about House Lannister. I'm hooked!

Thank you for the compliment! I didn’t know before tonight that there was a theory that Tyrion would lose his tongue, and I was happier in my ignorance. I don’t hold with this theory. Lemme take this piece by piece.  

“The Lannister children lost things that represent who they are”

Is this really true, though? “Things that represent who they are”?

To suggest that Cersei’s beauty represented who she was seems rather superficial to me – what of her cunning, her ruthlessness, her courage, her perseverance, her cruelty, her ambition, her Lannister name and all that comes with it? Westeros defines Cersei by her beauty (or the loss of it), but I don’t, and I would think that careful readers wouldn’t define her by that either. 

And Cersei doesn’t give one flying fuck about the people’s admiration: “King’s Landing had never loved Lord Tywin. He never wanted love, though.” Cersei, who wishes to emulate her father, doesn’t think much of the people’s admiration. She believes that “Fear is better than love”. 

I am Cersei of House Lannister, a lion of the Rock, the rightful queen of these Seven Kingdoms, trueborn daughter of Tywin Lannister. And hair grows back.

I honestly don’t know what to call that but pride and strength, and it’s not coming from her hair or her beauty. 

Yes, thought Cersei Lannister. Oh, yes.

^^That final thought in ADWD is not the thought of a woman who has lost who she was. Far from it. Note GRRM’s use of Cersei’s full name there. 

When Jaime says, “They took my sword hand. Was that all I was, a sword hand?” … well, was a sword hand all he was, truly? The point of Jaime’s arc to me is that he’s so much more than a mere sword hand. If you asked me to say one thing and one thing only that represents Jaime, I would not say sword hand. No, my answer would be contradiction. Jaime is a Kingsguard but also a Kingslayer, a brother but also a paramour, a disowned son, a knight and a knave simultaneously. 

And does Jaime have no strengths other than swordsmanship, truly? What of his fearsome reputation, what of his strong sense of loyalty and duty? And are we really going to say that Jaime isn’t proud after he loses his hand? 

But you came here to talk about Tyrion. 

First of all, Tyrion already lost a piece of himself, before either of his siblings lost pieces of themselves. Tyrion lost his nose, and with it he lost any illusions he had that people would look upon him favorably. I mean that both metaphorically (no one appreciates what he did to save the city, when by rights he should be a war hero - Tywin basically tells him to fuck off) and literally (Tyrion thinks he will be a hideous bridegroom). 

(Honestly, if you’re looking for the connection between the three Lannisters losing parts of themselves, that’s what I think it is - their disillusionment. Their loss of body parts coincides with their loss of illusion imo – tho I’m still waiting to meet TWOW!Cersei for confirmation.) 

Second … from what I gather reading posts by proponents of this theory, it’s motivated by a belief that Tyrion needs to be humbled further by the narrative … that he is still too proud … which is kind of gross to me? Tyrion has already been humbled by the narrative; he was literally sold into slavery. Penny is showing him what it is like to be a person with dwarfism without the protection of the Lannister name and Lannister gold. Tyrion literally has to perform in a circus act for people’s entertainment, so idk how much more dehumanized these theorists want to see Tyrion? 

Like, the point of ASOIAF isn’t dehumanization. GRRM isn’t trying to get us to revel in seeing people dehumanized. For example, the point of Cersei’s walk of shame isn’t to revel in Westerosi misogyny, it’s to see how horribly unfair and unjust that misogyny is, that Westeros would punish Cersei for having sex, instead of punishing her for, idk, murdering babies. 

Third, a major part of Tyrion’s story is overcoming all the abuse he suffered at his father’s hands. And silencing Tyrion was literally exactly a tactic that Tywin used against Tyrion, replayed in ADWD with Connington:

“Unless you can cut this fog with your next witticism, keep it to yourself.”Yes, Father, the dwarf almost said. I’ll be quiet. Thank you.

(^^look how Tyrion becomes “the dwarf” at this echo of Tywin’s abuse. It breaks my heart.)

The narrative has set itself completely in opposition to Tywin and his dehumanizing tactics. Tywin would love it if Tyrion lost his tongue and could never speak again. I’m having a really hard time believing that GRRM will write anything that Tywin would love in the coming books. 

Fourth, I don’t think that silencing an abuse victim is very much in line with the spirit of ASOIAF; GRRM repeatedly frames that as a heinous thing to do, across multiple plotlines. (Please click on that link. Please.) Silence is used to dehumanize people in ASOIAF. 

This is going to be a radical statement, i know … but maybe … just maybe … there are so many references to tongues being removed in Tyrion’s chapters because … it’s a theme that the (corrupt) people in power thrive on silence, and speaking out against them is hard, but we must do it anyway. 

Think about Tyrion in King’s Landing. Tyrion is one of the only people challenging his family when they commit atrocities. Yes, Tyrion is sometimes a party to those atrocities, but he’s also the person saying, Fuck no. "Sansa is no longer yours to torment. Understand that, monster.“ 

(This is why there is so much Janus imagery in Tyrion’s chapters, because of Tyrion’s duality.)

Fifth … this has nothing to do with the text and everything to do with this ableist fandom … do you know how many times I’ve heard variations of “I wish Tyrion would just shut up and quit whining!!!1!” during my … seven … years on this website? A disabled abuse victim … suffering from depression and PTSD … needs to … “quit whining” … I’m surprised I haven’t been driven into a constant state of apoplexy. I pray daily that Tyrion keeps ~~”””whining”””~~, just so that it pisses people off. 

Sixth … I’m sure I’m about to be pilloried for saying this. But. I think. Tyrion. Has. Much greater potential for heroism. Than other adult members of his family. I don’t understand why proponents of this theory would lump Tyrion in with Tywin to ~make Tyrion suffer~ as Tywin did???? That’s really disgusting. 

So, no, this theory is definitely not for me. 

Hope that explains my thoughts to your satisfaction!

[empiregalaxy]

Hi Madeleine! Hope you're doing well. Do you see any narrative bias in Book1 or subsequent books of Asoiaf?

I’m doing well, thanks!

This is a layered and interesting question. Narrative biasis something I’m always on edge about (is the show / book / film trying to sendus a message? Is this like a sports game where I have to pick a side betweentwo conflicting groups? Am I wrong for supporting this character?) butsomething which I’ve never thought about in the context of ASOIAF. A lot hasbeen written about how the Game Of Thrones (the show) uses bias to spreadharmful, or insulting messages- I highly recommend you read the recaps by @turtle-paced if you haven’t already. But as you asked about the books, I’lldiscuss them.

I think, overall GRRM employs a lot of skill in his writing.There’s no ‘after school special’ feel of the books, but I do think biasexists. Mainly, towards the Stark family. You’re probably thinking ‘Madeleine,but you love the Starks!’ and I do. And I proudly root for them and supportthem. I’ll try to make a point: bias isn’t necessarily a bad thing innarrative. I’ll also try to talk about Sansa specifically and how GRRM framesher, because I do have mixed feelings about how she is written especially in AGame Of Thrones. I’ll also talk about Tyrion (and the Lannister family), POVSand non POVs as well as other characters and events.

Firstly, let’s discuss bias in general. Here are things toavoid

·        Creating an almost one-sided view of events

·        Telling the readers what to think- or what‘side’ they ought to be on

·        Not sharing other perspectives, or schools ofthought

·        Offering zero empathy

·        Making brash statements that ought to bringshame or embarrassment to groups

Let’s break these down and how GRRM avoids them. ASOIAFemploys a multiple POV style structure, meaning that viewpoints all across theseven kingdoms are analysed in depth. We have Catelyn who despises Jaime getnumerous chapters, but then Jaime also becomes a POV. Even villains such asCersei get chapters. In A Clash Of Kings when Theon takes Winterfell- we gethis side of the story as well as Bran’s, who is directly impacted by Theon’sdecision. This is what I’d interpret at an attempt at narrative balance (whichis what, in my opinion writers should be aiming for).

Like I said earlier, GRRM doesn’t outright say what thereaders should be thinking- but he definitely does give his own opinion andperspective on events. For example: Joffrey executing Ned. The next two booksshow the fall out to that decision, Joffrey does not get any POVs, we see theevent through Arya’s eyes (who is Ned’s daughter), and it’s followed by thelong, gruelling trauma Sansa, Bran, Catelyn, Jon and Arya have to deal with.Therefore, we can establish that Joffrey killing Ned was a bad move. Thenarrative says so. The question: is it fair that GRRM makes that assertion?

I know what you’re thinking. ‘Oh, it’s Joffrey he’s evil andthe narrative is justified’ which brings me onto my second point: you can showbias, as long as you do it in a thoughtful, empathetic, considerate anddeveloped way. That means being careful with how you write events, structurecharacterization and frame potentially, groups of people. So I don’t mind thatJoffrey is treated like the Big Bad for killing Ned- because GRRM gives us goodreason to why the books are written that way.

Now onto my second point- picking sides within thenarrative. Let’s look at the Red Wedding. Here, both Tywin’s perspective andthe victim’s side is explored.

It’s quite clear that GRRM does not want us to take Tywin’sside. He’s not a POV, the POV characters, even Tyrion (a Lannister) arehorrified by it. We see Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Theon, Brienne and Bran’sgrief over it. They are Point Of View characters. So is it a bad thing GRRMwants us to not take Tywin’s side? Here, I think it’s justified. Asking thereaders to take the side of a war criminal- compared to the much more heroiccharacters is too hard. I also think Tyrion, Jon & Daenerys: the ‘threeheads of the dragon’ get a lot of benefit from being huge POV characters. In90% of the conflicts they face, you can sure bet GRRM will relish in thegreyness and understanding of the situation. 

GRRM does not write like a badsports journalist who expects you to take a side. I think he’s quite good atgreys, so when Jon gets stabbed ‘for the watch’ it reads as a masterful climaxof events, not just George preaching that Jon is right and everyone else iswrong. He does not glorify Tyrion and Dany’s failings. He may, however lose hismasterfulness and opt for a passing reference, an excuse or a footnote- forexample, I highly doubt Daenerys would ever face any retribution for torturingthe Wineseller’s daughter- she show’s no regret and no character ever brings itup again. GRRM doesn’t comment on this event, but I bet if Daenerys were not aPOV character- she’d definitely face consequences. I sometimes feel non-POVsare held up to a higher moral standard than POVs: what we give passes Tyrionfor (up to murder)- Stannis is heavily scrutinized for.  

Thirdly, schools of thoughts / multiple perspectives. Thisis not something I think GRRM intended to do, but a lot of his ‘perspectives’come from quite rich backgrounds. There are of course, exceptions such as DavosSeaworth but can a book really comment on poverty when its characters are forthe most part, economically privileged? I don’t really have a good answer tothat question, and I don’t think anyone really does. The POV characters, until A Feast For Crows are also overwhelminglymale and white. This makes regions such as Dorne quite painful to read becauseuntil POVs are introduced, we perceive Dorne through rather racist stereotypes.This weakens GRRM’s writing and plays into ‘telling, not showing’. I think he’sa rather sophisticated writer, but he needs to engage with other perspectivesmore and not rely on lazy stereotypes.

Overall, he is a writer who can exhibit great control- hejust needs more thought and insight into particular matters.

I think he offers plenty of empathy towards his characters;even polarizing ones such as Cersei. However, sometimes this seems restrictedto only POVs. Lollys Stokeworth’s writing is absolutely terrible and she lacksthe voice in the narrative. She’s been raped multiple times, abused, mocked andinsulted. Yet GRRM falls to the traps of ableist writing. That’s a meta foranother time, I think. I also think Hodor falls into fantasy clichés of the ‘mysticaldisability’ that serves as a plot device. GRRM has no problem in making Hodor afleshed out character, what GRRM has a problem with is giving Hodor the respecthe deserves. I’m also very, very critical of the writing that Sansa Stark getsin the first book. She’s ‘punished’ by the narrative- forced into ‘lessons’which to be frank, are disgusting and misogynistic. Lady is killed, she’sforced to watch her father die brutally, she’s beaten and gets rape & deaththreats. To say that the story isn’t fair to Sansa feels like anunderstatement.

Over the course of the series, Sansa’s ‘Stark’ identity getsthreatened and beaten down. She’s married to a Lannister who molests her, whichwrites her out of Robb’s Will (so she can’t inherit despite being the oldest ofRobb’s legitimate siblings). This isn’t A+ writing, this is punishing a teenagegirl for things way out of her control. It’s not professional of GRRM to dothis. So is this narrative bias? I think GRRM has improved in writing Sansaduring AFFC & the sample chapter in TWOW. I’d like to think the best.

I also think of Jeyne Poole- yes her treatment of Arya wasdisgusting. That doesn’t make it right to put her in a position where she is ‘Arya’and that means being raped, abused by Ramsay Bolton. There reaches a pointwhere it’s too much. I’d like to think GRRM did not write A Dance With Dragons with the intention of punishing Jeyne, but I’dbe lying if I said it never came across like that.

In all fairness, GRRM gives characters who in fantasy don’tget much of a platform. But it could be so much more, it’s rather frustrating.So pretty much: if you are a white male and a POV- great, the series will treatyou well or with respect. If not, your treatment is determined by numerousfactors.

In conclusion, GRRM’s improving but ASOIAF does fall tonarrative biases from time to time. Some of them are terrible, but some areforgivable or okay. It kind of determines by the circumstance.  This was a messy meta, I just hope I made myopinions clear.

:)