#those miles and gwen aren't the same ones you know from the movies

[ghostflowerhotpotch]

You know guys? Is funny to love the spider-verse movies so much, and fall in love with this ship so hard it consumes your thoughts, and you want Miles and Gwen so badly to get together in the movies-

And then you read the Spider-Gwen comics and now you are praying with all your might that Gwen and Miles DON'T get together in those.

[ignitingthesky]

"We're talking about it, aren't we?" — Across the Spider Verse, and its opening statement on canonicity

Canonicity. The accepted norm, the standards of legitimization. There is of course so much to talk about with regards to the comics canon that I am totally unfamiliar with... so I will focus instead on the fun little sequence at the beginning re: the art canon, and ATSV's evocation of art canonicity as an opening statement for its subsequent explorations of canonicity.

Right at the beginning, before Miles's story begins, ATSV destroys the Guggenheim museum.

The Guggenheim museum is not just any gallery, but specifically an art institution strongly associated with the contemporary art (it's also hole shaped but that's not relevant rn). It has the power to legitimize the artworks in it because of its association with the contemporary art canon, which is... ongoing, yet. In general, museums that are respected as art institutions could potentially legitimize non-canon artworks, but only because its adherence to the existing standards of canon has given it that power.

So. The story begins by destroying a legitimizing institution perpetuating an art historical canon of 'high art', through the mediums of 'low art' — animation and comic. The story begins with a Renaissance artist Vulture, from, in Gwen's words, "some Leonardo da Vinci dimension" — his association with an art canon is no coincidence as he also attempts to define what is canon ("You call this art?"), rejects the contemporary art canon by literally destroying it, emphasizing the competing ideas of canon even within those that make it to canon. The story begins, with pop cultural figures of a multiplying canon, spider people of different comics working together to fight the Renaissance artist Vulture that insists on one version of the art canon.

You know what Gwen says in response to Vulture right after he questions the canonicity of contemporary art, and right before they break the Balloon Dog by Jeff Koons?* "We're talking about it, aren't we?" And after they break the Balloon Dog: "Sure it's a meta commentary on what we call art, but it's ... it's also art?". Loops back on itself neatly, really, but what does this mean? That the artwork is canon because it comments on its place in canon? It is canon, because of its relationship to canon? If this sounds like the museum's power inside canon being derived from its relationship with canon, that's because that's how a canon works. The accepted norm is both legitimized by its components and doing the legitimizing of its components, existing to feed itself endlessly — that is what makes them static and resistant to change — the same way Spider Society defines through their commonalities what is canon, become trapped by their own canon, and also perpetuate and enforce that canon.

*Detouring to talk about Balloon Dog by Jeff Koons more, @moonsun2010 for noticing this detail: big balloon dog (spiderverse canon) consisting of small balloon dogs (spider people and the iterations of their individual stories). So! His Balloon Dog(s) are famously identical, reproduced, and mocked to death for that very expensive repetition, and if you've heard, recently one of the smaller ones broke it's like $42k? I don't know if everyone was wondering what's inside one of the bigger ones, but because of the museums preserving its staticity (you are obviously not allowed to touch or destroy artworks inside of a museum), the speculation was meaningless. The act of destruction (in this movie) revealing MORE Balloon Dogs in this artwork both disrupted staticity AND is much more interesting than the pristine, untouched original. Clearly, visitors stuck in ATSV museum think so too: "Oh, that's cool." That's one more point under destroying something that exists for its own self replicating sake to reveal and free an exciting multiplicity!

This art canon parallel refracts beautifully in the SHEER diversity of art styles in this movie, in the commitment to portraying not just different spider-designs, but the mediums their universes are in. To me, that is an extension of the relationship they've established between artistic and narrative canons - there seems to be no limits as to what spiderpeople can look like and how they can be drawn, in clear juxtaposition with the rigidity of their narrative canons. The institution symbolic of an art canon is destroyed at the beginning of this movie. what will be destroyed by the end, from resisting the narrative canon?

To end on a bit of speculation: imo for Gwen "a police captain close to spider person dies to save a child" still works and it didn't really defy canon so much as reinterpret it. A police captain close to spider person dies (quits, death of cop ego, whatever) to save a child (his child, Gwen). so I'm SO interested to see if Miles will find a way to defy canon fr — maybe in the process kicking up another count on the destroying of self perpetuating, static structures?

[batfamfucker]

Spiderverse Spoilers Ahead - Trans Stuff.

The amount of people saying that believing Gwen is Trans is 'reaching'- As if her and her dad don't both have Trans flags, her colours aren't literally that of the Trans flag, and that every Spiderman reveal speech feels like a goddamn coming out coded scene- Is insane.

As if the Spiderverse creative team didn't plan and animate everything to the last detail.

I've seen people saying her owning the flag could just be an ally thing. Which is true, but how many people own pride flags for allyship compared to just. Being actually queer? I swear the transphobes are delusional.

Like. They way they (The animators) plan colours and set designs and costumes and colour coding is so detailed. You want me to believe they had Miles wear a BLM pin because it was relevant to him personally, but then not believe that Gwen's dad wore a trans pin and she had a 'Protect Trans Kids' (People keep saying it could be the dad but keyword: Kids) flag in her room because they were personal to her, too?

The same team that hinted 42 Miles as the Prowler by having our Miles put on a green and purple hoodie? So we know they code with colour. But saying Gwen could be Trans because her designated colours being symbolic of the Trans flag is a reach? As if the Spiderverse team wouldn't know that (After they added the flags none the less), and don't foreshadow/hint at things with colours throughout this franchise? You genuinely think it's a 'reach' that the same people that took THREE YEARS to figure out how to animate Hobie alone, wouldn't realise how using those colours would be interpreted (Especially next to the other subtext and design clues)? That they what? Didn't do research? As if they haven't been excellently representing communities this entire time and clearly putting all their love into clearly researching and showcasing the beauty of diversity? Be so for real.

I've seen people complaining that 'we do this with every movie'. Name one Trans animated movie character. Or one Trans movie character at all (That doesn't die, or go through something horrific for no needed reason, or isn't built from harmful stereotypes, etc).

The levels people will go to to deny queer existence and queer characters is ridiculous. You don't have to like it. I don’t care. She's not Trans for you, she's Trans for the Trans people watching this movie. The same way that Miles is Black, or that Pavitr is Indian. Anyone can be Spider-Man, that's the entire point. It's not 'forced diversity', it's just diversity. Trans people exist, the same way that straight/cis people do. You'll hype up Miles as a step in a progressive direction, then shit on Trans people for clinging to Gwen for the same resonation?

If you want a cishet white Spider-Man, go watch all the other medias that exist. We're allowed this one. The creators made their message very clear, Spiderverse is for everyone. Spider-Man can be anyone.

[pieofdeath]

i emerge several hours later with the across the spiderverse liveblog. for people who don't want to read it: fantastic movie! all the different art styles were really cool! i miss noir a lot! I can't wait for the 3rd movie!!!

Incredible intro sequence, once again

I'm watching this one on my actual TV too

Oh I didn't say this with the first one but having the approved by the comics code authority stamp right before the movie is an incredible choice

!!! GWEN 💖

Is it a spider rule that you have to have been bit on your arm/hand

The INCREDIBLE drumming sequence 

Ok noted Gwen is from earth 65

Gwen, don't be mean to the drums :(

Band mates look fun!

Peter from her universe seems so nice!!!

HE DRANK SOME FUCKIN RADIOACTIVE THING???

page 1 break (this is the same document as the first movie's liveblog)

GWENS PROM OUTFIT

HOLY SHIT is Peter green goblin for Gwen???

“I just wanted to be special.” Said by PETER FUCKING PARKER IS FUCKING ME UP.

I'm getting all the compounded emotions from the first movie 

HE KNOWS WHO SHE IS

AND THEN HE DIED.

the doors closed and showing Spider-Woman and then opening and showing Gwen…

This voice talking is for Sure JJJ

Hey aren't y'all proud of me I knew that

Oh the caption said Jonah I'm not as cool :(

Her dad being a cop trying to hunt her down 

Wait in this universe Uncle Ben is alive :(

HER DAD’S WEARING A VISIONS ACADEMY SHIRT

Gwens world has such a pretty art style. it's so colorful and painterly, it's absolutely gorgeous 

THE WAY THE COLORS BLOOM WHEN SHE GIVES HER DAD A HUG

Gwen being cool colors in the warm toned kitchen… 

her hiding her suit in the drum is so cool

THE PIC OF HER AND MILES!!!

THE TRANS FLAG HAHAHAHA YAAAAAY

the music is so cool

Gwens world! Again! Gorgeous!!

Yuri! I know that name from the snapcube fandub :)

The deep voice she does for her dad 😭

THIS VULTURE LOOKS SOOOOOOO COOOOOOOOOL

PAPER MAN!

what universe is he from 

OHHH HE'S FROM A SICK RENAISSANCE WORLD!!!

THATS SO COOL ARE THESE COMICS REAL SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE TO FIND THEM!!!

JEFF KOONS. POINTS.

The Renaissance man hating Jeff Koons and modern art is so funny!!! 

The vulture is animated in such a cool way

MIGUEL!!!!!!!!!

DARK GARFIELD

THE COMICS FROM THE LAST MOVIE ARE STILL IN THE PILE :D

I hope we see a lil bit of Noir I miss him :(

Miguel having sketchy lines + shoulders is so cool

DOCTOR STRANGE MENTION 

THE WING REBUILDING THATS SO COOL

WHO IS THIS MOTORCYCLE LADY!!!!!!!!

I HAVE NEVER SEEN HER BEFORE!!!!!!!

COOL SPIDERWOMAN. SHE'S PREGNANT AND MARRIED

“will you adopt me?” “What?” “What?”

page 2 break

Is she married to Miguel?

MIGUEL WITH THE FUCKING TEEEEEEETH

Miguel 🤝 my spidersona/spiderman oc. Having big ol teeth 

I really need to talk about her

The running home of calling the universe glitching “banksy” 😭 y'all live in New York isn't he British!

The shot of Gwen holding her hands up trying to talk to her dad….

SHE TOOK OFF THE MASK…

“How long have you been lying to me?” 

“Can you just not be a cop for a second, and be my dad here and listen to me?”

The background changing to be the mask…

Seriously Gwen's world is STUNNING and I can see why her costume looks like that now

HE TRIED TO FUCKING ARREST HER…

New comic for the Pile! Miles Again!

Miles is from 1610… Got it…

hehe my blorbo is from 1910 :)

The parents waiting for miles :( 

THE SPOT. I KNOW THAT GUYS NAME. 

Those cameras look like the fnaf cameras to me

The spot trying to get the money 😭

“NO! SIR! PLEASE JUST LET ME ROB YOU!” 😭😭😭

“I'm a scientist. Or, I was. I am. You've heard of alchemax. I used to work there.” IS THIS FUCKING BAGEL GUY!!! SAY IT'S THE BAGEL GUY.

THE LITTLE SPIDER DRAWING it's so cute

I love Miles' art btw it's so good

MILES HAS TO MAKE YOUTUBE APOLOGIES?!

JJJ!!!! hehe

“I don't dwell on it” while drawing so much art of Gwen. 

The additions to the Expectations graffiti of the other Spiders and Uncle Aaron (both Uncle and prowler edition)...

The dad trying to spell important and failing 😭

How he ended up catching Spot 😭

AP STUDIO ART I DID THAT 🫵

MILES FLAKING TO GET SPOT

HIS DAD IS ON THE PTA 

I'm so certain this is Bagel Guy 

HIS DAD RUNNING DOWN THE STAIRS

IT'S BAGEL GUY!

“Spiderman, why did you create this guy?” 😭 Even when he doesn't know it's his son he's in dad mode

Miles trying to get his dad to Talk About His Emotions… I love that

“Maybe get off the kids ass…” “what?” “What?”

“You gotta let him spread his wings, man. Like this.” Thanks for that demonstration miles sjdfjdjakskg

page 3 break

Spot trapped in weird spot dimension

“Hypothesis. I'm going to put my head in that hole.” Not a hypothesis but carry on

YO. CLASSIC COMICS WORLD.

LEGO WORLD!!!!!!!!!

THE CASH REGISTER JUST BEING SO CHILL ABOUT SPOT 

LEGO SPIDERMAN IS PART OF THE MULTIVERSE THING WITH MIGUEL!!!!

literally obsessed with this

Are those kids playing Yu-Gi-Oh 

UNCLE AARON GRAFFITI!!!

His dad was so excited to say he was grounded

The DJ looks fucking STRESSED 

what fucking incredible reality warping bullshit is happening in his room

GWEN HIIIII

SHE HUGGED HIM IMMEDIATELY AUWJDJSJ 

GWEN YOU CAN'T JUST OPEN THE PACKAGE OF A COLLECTIBLE LIKE THAT. 

Her name is Jess Drew!

If he doesn't tell his parents about Spider-Man I'm gonna cry

SHAKESPEARE DIMENSION I WANNA SEEEEEEEE

HOBIE MENTION!

What weird things did she plant

SPOT! HI SPOT

the cute upside down sitting!!!!

Miles’ new suit looks really nice btw

“In every other universe, Gwen Stacy falls for Spiderman. And in every other universe, it doesn't end well.”

“There's a first time for everything, right?” ADORABLE

Gwen in casual wear is really cute

SURPRISE MOM

The conversation between Miles and his mom… it's fucking me up. I love them so much. I love these movies so much.

Him stripping down to the suit as he's going down the stairs 

Spot’s name is Dr Jonathan Ohnn… Noted. He looks rlly cool

The way the thought boxes look while he's invisible is so cool

The colorful glitching and reality warping is so cool

THE TUNNELS IN THE MULTIVERSE

EARTH 50101 IS SO FUCKING COOL

THE FUCKING SICK AS HELL YOYO??????

PAVITR IS SO FUCKING COOL IM OBSESSED WITH HIM.

“This is where the traffic is, this is where the traffic is, this is where the traffic is and this is where the British stole all our stuff”

Pav shipping them so fucking hard 😭

HOBIEEEEEEEEEEEEE

I'M LITERALLY OBSESSED WITH HIM!!!

SPOT LOOKS SO FUCKING COOL. OH MY GOD.

page 4 break

OH NO PAVS GIRLFRIEND

“Markers are predicting an upcoming canon event” STARES DIRECTLY AT GAYATRI.

SHES OK AND SO IS HER DAD YAAAY

wait hold on. Canon event disrupted. One of them wasn't supposed to be okay.

Hobie is incredible btw. I love his animation in contrast to the other three.

I miss noir 

Pav’s suit is fantastic btw idk if I've said that

“What's that?” “It's a metaphor for capitalism” Hobie 😭

Oh there's other guys. I'm staring so directly. 

Fun fancy white spider. Pink spider. Spider with multiple arms. 

“I don't follow orders, neither does he.” “I'm invited to HQ? WOO!!!!” [Hobie looking so upset] 

so obsessed with Hobie and Miles already. They're buddies.

NEW COMIC IN THE PILE

HOBIE IS SO PRETTY I KNEW WHAT HE LOOKED LIKE BUT MAN. HIS HAIR IS ALSO DRAWN DUPER COOL WITH THE ANIMATION 

Miguel is from 928… 

HQ LOOKS SO FUCKIN SICK

Idk who Malala Windsor is but I love her. From 835 it looks like?

All the puns. Quipping is a spiderman constant 😭

THERE'S SO MANY SPIDERS!!!!!!!

Peter Parkedcar??? 

OBSESSED WITH WEBSLINGER. IS THIS GUY REAL WHERE CAN I BUY HIS COMICS.

Is that spiderman from one of the games

That animation is distinctly different and reminds of stuff my faefriend has shown me

hold on was that a real ass human. 

THATS FUCKING DONALD GLOVER 

AUAUDHFJSJAKRK

MIGUEL!!!

did he just give himself a venom shot. what was that

Aww Miguel's daughter is so cute

“Just don't enlist till you know what war you're fighting” HOBIE!

PETERRRRRRRR

WITH A BABY HARNESS THINGY

LITTLE BABYYYYY HER NAMES MAYYYYYY HE CALLS HER MAYDAY

HE MADE HER A TINY WEBSHOOTER

“Spider-Verse…” “Spider-Verse… that sounds stupid” 😭

REAL WORLD TOBY MCGUIRE???

I didn't realize that it's police inspectors… That's so wild. 

Bro Miguel needs a hug

SHIT MILES IS RIGHT HIS DAD IS ABOUT TO BECOME CAPTAIN…

“If not for Uncle Ben, most of us wouldn't be here, Miles “ AUSHDJFJSMAMD…

ANDREW GARFIELD????

page 5 break

PENI'S HERE YAYYY

WHERE'S NOIR!

is this like PS1 spiderman

“Kid, look at me-” “stop calling me that.” “There we go.” “Hobie, you're not helping.” “Good.”

“little man. Peter Pan. Palms.” 

HOBIE IS LITERALLY THE BEST DAMN CHARACTER. 

HOBIE QUIT CLAPPING AND CHEERING

THE SPIDERMAN POINTING SCENEEEEE

MILES HIDING ON THE GUYS BACK

IS THAT A SPIDER T-REX

OG TV SHOW SPIDER-MAN 

Took a break here to go practice my clarinet before school starts up

Alright I'm back like an hour later

Hobie looks like he was drawn with poscas 

Ben reilly looks like a rob liefeld guy

MILES IS THE ORIGINAL ANOMALY… FUCK DUDE.

BLAST MIGUEL INTO ORBITTTTTTT

OH SHIT HE'S GONNA GO TO THE WRONG WORLD BECAUSE THE SPIDER IS FROM 42… 

Spider-Byte didn't stop him from being sent home… 

GWEN D:

May blew a raspberry at Miguel 😭 smart baby

Earth 42 looks sick as hell

I love the reds and greens

Gwen and her dad 😭

HER DAD QUIT SO MAYBE HE'S NOT GOING TO DIE

“You're the best thing I've ever done” 

THE HUGGGGGGGGGG

Hobie left a fun package! 

THE PORTAL TO HOBIES WORLD IS SO COOL!

The montage of Miles swinging through the streets… 

First hint of noir I love him

OH FUCK HIS DAD IS BEING CALLED CAPTAIN 

GWENNN

MILES DOESN'T KNOW HE'S NOT HOME…

it sounds like he's coming out as gay and you know what he is

Who's spiderman

I knew it was coming but damn

UNCLE AARON!!!!!

Oh Miles had braids in 42, I wanna see that

Oh my god what is 42-Miles mixed up in. 

HIS DAD'S DEAD IN 42…

GWEN TALKING TO HIS PARENTS

page 6 break

His dad called her emo 😭

“He loves you more than you could ever imagine. I've seen it.”

NEW COMIC ON THE PILE

Uncle Aaron is so menacing in this world

Prowler wears Nike airs 

OH SHIT MILES FROM 42 IS PROWLER????

Braids look fantastic

The difference in how 42-Miles and Miles are shaded is WONDERFUL 

I want to know who was supposed to be bit in 42 super bad. 

THE SPOT THE SPOT THE SPOT!!!

May dangling from the ceiling 😭 she's so adorable

GWEN IN PETER'S WORLD WITH HOBIE’S PORTAL 💖

NOIRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!

THE MOVIE CANT BE FUCKING OVER OH MY GOD

HEAD IN HANDS I can't wait

Not going to lie from how much everyone talked about him when this came out I thought Hobie had more screen time

He's fantastic and I adore him 

I can't WAIT for beyond the spiderverse 

Skipping to see if there's an after-credits scene

Huh doesn't look like it. Absolutely wild. 

VERY good movie!!!!!

OHHHHHHH THE CASHIER WAS FROM VENOM……….. OK IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW 

so in summary. good movie :) long but very good, it was FANTASTIC and I'm in love

[princess-of-the-corner]

i have seen spiderverse

i am convinced these "Canon events" aren't what they seem

and also that if they are true then miles universe should have been destoryed

migeal says hes the original anomoly and that his peter wasnt supposed to die

BUT HIS UNIVERSE IS STILL INTACT, and the univedrse where the spider that bit miles came from is still intactm yet iut has no spiderman

so yeah i believe canon events are a thing, and its just migeal misinterpreting stuff

also gwens father who is a cop, quit the force, and her universe is still there

like theres just way too many plotholes for "canon events" to actually be a thing

Yeah there's also the fact of like

Canon Events are things that happen to every Spiderman, but there's so many variations of Spiderman! It's not even 'alternate Peter Parkers' in every universe, but we have Miles and Gwen and Miguel himself and a bunch of others that are not Peter Parker

Because of the above, we can't have exact same Canon Events. Even if there are similiar things! Like yes, most if not all Spiderpeople have lost a loved one doing this. But there are so many variations to how it happened! Even if you narrow it down to something they feel guilt about, that's just.... something that's going to happen when you're a Superhero, not something Spider-specific

However, even if we assume Canon Events are real it's.... Let's take the example in the movie where one of the 'Canon Events' is supposed to be a police captain they know dying. Since Miles' father, a police captain, is in danger, it's assumed that this is the Canon Event. Miles wants to prevent his father's death, and this pisses Miguel off.

However

1.) Even if it's a Canon Event that Miles will have a police captain he knows die, it does not have to be this. It could be a different captain he befriends later on. It could still be his father but at a different time and place.

and

2.) Part of the Canon Even of this is, ya know. The fact that he's trying to save him but is unable to. No one else who experienced that Canon Event knew the police captain was in danger and just sat by and let him die(except maybe Hobie because I see those laces). They all were in the fight trying to save the captain.

If this is a Canon Event, then no matter what Miles does, he will fail. Miguel shouldn't care about Miles trying to save his father because if he's right then Miles will fail. But if Miles is able to save him and things don't immediately go to hell....... what does that mean for Miguel's history?

[rejector-of-mortal-flesh]

So folks, I want to discuss something. I was browsing through Pinterest as I do occasionally and eventually drifted into Trans!Gwen Stacy posts. A lot of the posts made some pretty good points about how certain things in Across the Spiderverse and Into the Spiderverse pointed towards that or hinted that she was trans.

Now, I respect headcanons. If you think Gwen Stacy is trans, that's okay and cool. Just don't harass other folks with a different headcanon.

If you think she's not trans, that's okay and cool too. Same as earlier, just be respectful.

The thing that made me bristle a little was a comment on one of these posts.

I'll go through this comment line by line.

I get what people want from this but it also defeats the purpose of "everyone should be an ally"

Okay, I can sorta see what this means.

It does way more for the lgbt community to have gwen be an ally rather than be trans.

WHAT

Okay, I'm sorry but how exactly is a cis presumably het character being supportive of trans people doing more for the lgbtq community than her being trans and you know, being actual representation that we are severely lacking which helps guide people towards acceptance.

Like, I agree. Allies are incredibly important and we need our allies but to claim that it's doing more if a character is an ally vs her being a part of the lgbtq community is bonkers to me.

If she's trans, then it sends a message that only people with personal relations to lgbt people are supportive

How??? Because her dad also has a trans pin? Miles also has a personal relationship with her as do many of the other characters in the films but only her dad is wearing the pin.

Also, people who are supportive of the trans community who are not trans themselves do not tend to wear trans pins and keep trans flags in their bedroom of all places. If you support gay people, generally speaking you don't have a gay flag in your room if you're not gay.

How is saying that a character is trans because of some flags and pins, in a movie about spider people, giving a message that only people with personal relations are supportive when one of those people have personal relations with characters who aren't showing obvious support.

however since she isn't trans it sends the message that you can be an ally without having a family member or a connection to an lgbt person

Hoowwww??????😭😭🥲🥲

Im sorry, I'm just so confused. Why does a headcanon about a character being trans bother them this much?

So is every other person in the movie like Miles or Peter B, etc. assumed to not be an ally because they don't have pins and flags?

Like, every character is assumed to be an ally unless otherwise. Unless something about them shows that they would be against that, they're assumed to be supportive. So saying that a character shouldn't be trans because it sends a message that allies must have a personal relationship with an lgbtq member (still not sure how you get that) when literally no one else is using those pins or flags except them is bonkers to me. It is. Gwen is already presumed to be an ally. The flags and pins do not empathize that she is an ally, it really doesn't.

Okay let me state something after writing this.

I HAVE NO PROBLEM IF YOU HEADCANON GWEN AS TRANS OR IF YOU DON'T

I simply take issue with this comment alone.

[rappaccini]

Mmmmm how about your movie gw!les hate (altho i am interested on the taking miles side hate too)

honestly i've probably gone on about this elsewhere so apologies if i regurgitate a few things.

first of all, it just doesn't make sense that they're In Love (tm).

i buy that miles would be hung up on her, since she's his first big crush and he's isolated from all other spider-people, but gwen? by the time they reunite she knows pav and hobie better than she ever knew miles. if anything, her angst about not being able to fall in love with spider-man should be directed at hobie, who she knows far better and spent literal months looking after her.

but for some reason, it's miles. i do not believe that a teenage girl would be this in love with a boy she spent one afternoon with after a year and a half of no contact and five months of friendship with other guys, including one she has chemistry with. (especially given she's suddenly into him as she's getting older and her mental image of him, a 13-14yo she said was too young for her, has stayed the same. uh. gwen?) like, all those little mentions of how gwen's been telling everyone about miles all this time? how. what the fuck could she have been talking about for months? the entire history of miles and gwen's relationship could be discussed in literally one sitting and then there'd be nothing more to say. is she just repeating the same conversation over and over? isn't that weird?

they could've fixed the timeline issue by setting atsv a few months after itsv, when it'd feel reasonable for gwen to reevaluate her feelings about miles and think 'hm maybe something could've happened there', or if they joined the society at the same time and had time to establish a friendship without pav and hobie having better dynamics with gwen...

but even then, it doesn't matter. sure, they have cute chemistry and the age gap is appropriate (the bar's so low), but the relationship's fundamentally bad for their development, and it only works when you frame it as such: miles and gwen aren't in love. they barely know each other and even their friendship is more of a concept than a reality. they're infatuated with the idea of each other.

which could be interesting! if the writers understood that was what they were working with!

[cut for length]

the metanarrative of atsv is that miles and gwen's treatment by the spider society are a commentary about the roles we allow the marginalized groups they represent to have in our stories. for miles, black and brown boys; for gwen, [white in particular] girls. gwen's metanarrative is about being the love interest in a story made for, about and by men, and miles's is about being an afrolatino boy in a story built for white guys. it makes sense that they'd latch onto the idea of each other-- a girl seeking belonging and protection in a male-dominated space by getting an impressive boyfriend, and a black boy seeking approval in a white-dominated space by getting a white girlfriend.

assimilation versus self-determination is a theme their stories have in common. it is important for their characters to be tempted by the easy way out. but. they both have to choose self-determination.

and if they become a couple and that's framed as a good thing, that won't happen.

instead, the metanarrative goes rotten. all the black and brown boys in the audience are told they deserve to be the heroes, they should get to define their stories without having to play by rules written by/for white guys, they shouldn't have to be boxed in, stereotyped or traumatized… but hey, some of those rules are okay! you don't have to break the system, just make it work for you! and all the girls in the audience are STILL being told the most important thing they can be is Some Guy's Girlfriend.

that's the problem. atsv frames gwen and miles as this epic sweeping romance that breaks the narrative and liberates them... except it doesn't. miles is the main character, the protagonist, the hero. gwen's the girlfriend. there's nothing groundbreaking or subversive about the main character getting the girl.

and how can miles redefine what it means to be the hero, if he just ends up cherrypicking tropes made for stories about white dudes, and keeping the ones that give him what he wants? (especially if said tropes benefit him and harm her) how can he show the other characters how to redefine their narratives if he doesn't let gwen do the same because it might mean he won't get what he wants from her?

how can gwen get her autonomy if she's stuck being the girlfriend, with every line, thought, feeling, action, relationship and opinion she has being filtered through 'how does this benefit her man?'

(literally it makes me breathe fire how all the gwen hate for this movie revolves around how people are mad that she isn't worshipping at the feet of some boy she barely fucking knows.)

gwiles is Not Good for miles's story arc no matter what medium it appears in. it's a shallow infatuation that keeps him stuck picking up peter parker's leftovers and denies him the ability to find something unique to him and resonant to his arc. but if he and gwen get together, he still gets the broad strokes of what he wants-- a superpowered girlfriend, a team to lead, the respect of the audience, and he keeps his status as the protagonist of his own story.

it's worse for gwen. it's actively destructive to her character. it betrays the single most important thing about her narrative, and makes it impossible for her to be her own person or have her own story. the most she gains is a pat on the head and a 'hey, maybe we won't kill you this time!'

making the ship happen required gwen's backstory to be watered down and sanitized, and her character to be yoinked back into the male gaze. sure, she has a perspective and a plotline of her own, but it all circles back to Being Miles's Girlfriend. gwen's storyline in atsv is 'i miss this boy i hung out with for 8 hours total 17 months ago despite having made several deeper friendships and a possible romance since then. i am somehow in love with him despite not knowing him at all, and i need to prove i am worthy of him. even when i break free of the oppressive system, i'm only doing it for my boyfriend. even when i reconcile with my father, i'm only doing it because i wanted to get a photo of my boyfriend, and it isn't as important as me defending that boy to his parents. even when i'm going into battle and assembling my superteam, it's for my boyfriend. sure i'm homeless and doomed to die and have no control over my fate because of this relationship, but this boy i barely know is still the most important thing to me.' what the fuck?

when gwen's death inevitably becomes a big plot point in btsv, even if she survives, even if miles isn't the one who saves her (oh GOD fucking imagine if miles gets the big hero moment where he saves gwen), her survival revolves around being his girlfriend. it all comes down to how special miles is, and how saving gwen and obtaining her as a love interest proves his specialness.

them getting together undercuts the theming about defining your own story... and it should be noted that miles hasn't actually come to that conclusion yet. when atsv ends, his stance is that he 'beat' the society because he's better than them. he hasn't realized that the idea of canon itself is the problem-- he just thinks he's the exception to it. if btsv doesn't involve him expanding his perspective to realizing that everyone else should redefine their narratives too, and encouraging them to do so (including gwen, even if it means he won't get what he wants from her), then that'll be the note the trilogy ends on-- not that everyone deserves the freedom to be the hero of their own story and miles is simply the first person to realize this and convince the others, but that miles morales is special enough to do what he wants, but the rest of you aren't. not good!

... all this being said, they could change this all around in btsv. they have everything they need to let gwen and miles resolve their infatuation, admit it wasn't what they needed, and support each other as they move on with other people. but i really doubt they will.

and finally the thing that really fucking bothers me is the potential sv gwiles has to ripple out into all other depictions of them individually.

spiderverse gwen is now the spider-gwen the general public knows about. meaning, the writers had the chance to introduce the narrative about her being her own person, and chose to throw it out in favor of making her The Girlfriend again. which means now the general public still thinks gwen's purpose is to be the love interest.

which could be catastrophic for her character everywhere else. gwen's future is in flux in the comics right now and i'm real fucking concerned that marvel's answer to 'what do we do with gwen' will be 'make her miles's girlfriend' instead of 'let her go back to her world and tell interesting stories there.'

[ghostflowerhotpotch]

Why Hobie's chucks?

I had seen a lot of people question how she can fit in those shoes, and some to say that their relationship is actually deeper because of this, however my mind has been going in other directions.

For example, why those?

Let me start with one thing: We have no idea how many things Gwen owns, and what is actually hers.

Considering the fact that at the end of the movie she went to get the polaroid she had with Miles, I think is safe to say that she didn't go back to the apartment to retrieve any of her belongings, meaning the things she had that were hers previously was probably only the things she carried with her, that is her suit, and her ballerina shoes.

I bring this show because we can see that she is using her ballerina shows in the first movie, and aside of the Vision's academy uniform, the only other thing we saw her use in the first movie is her spider suit, which she was transported with.

This makes sense because being at the academy she could probably find a uniform on the school store or similar, shoes perhaps was a bit more complicated.

(She also appears to use them while she was presenting herself, seeing on a flashback. This could be that either she was fresh out of a spider-woman mission and didn't have another shoes; or the animators didn't see the point in designing shoes for a scene that wasn't going to show them for more than 2 seconds.)

However while looking back at the beginning of the movie, Gwen is using chucks, same or similar colour too.

(Animation wise, they are probably the same shoes.)

Okay, this confirms us that she likes chucks, and is part of her style; so she probably took the shoes because she likes that type, right?

Yes, except that here is the thing: Why?

When she battles, she uses the pointe ballet shoes, in fact even if you see her using chuck's earlier in the movie, she is switches to her ballet shoes for the fight with Vulture. Even if we see her using the chucks later in the movie while she is in her spider-suit, that was after she got called out for not doing her duty, so she probably didn't have them handy.

However, even if we know that she went to Earth-1610 to catch the Spot (meaning she should be gearing for battle,) it was only the excuse she used so she could go to this universe without getting in trouble. After all, she opened the portal DIRECTLY to Miles.

Okay, after this point is going to be more speculation/theory than analysis, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt.

Hear me out.

Now, we have NO idea how the Spider Society operates in terms of money, food, etc. We don't have an idea if Gwen is getting paid (how that would even work? It would be money from Earth-928?) we can assume she stays there to sleep at least, even if she still crashes Hobie's universe.

But in terms of her wardrobe or how to get a new one, we have no clue; it could also be that even if she gets paid, she doesn't like to use the clothes that are in Miguel's universe; I wouldn't be shocked that there aren't any.

And we establish that she likes those converse, right? Part of her style, probably something she likes to use to you know, daily live, seen friends, looking good for someone.

Also, what else Hobie said before he asked if those were his chucks?

So, she left a sweater, her toothbrush, and took Hobie's shoes.

Considering she left her toothbrush, it probably means she was there fairly recently; however she also left a sweater and we know she had a cardigan with her when she went to visit Miles.

I think everyone can see where I am going with this, but to put the cherry on top-

Hobie knew that was Miles.

Now, could he had known just because Gwen probably told him about Miles, however he also should know that 1) No way in hell he should be able to travel to another dimensions since he doesn't have a watch, 2) He just saw him, he cannot even go with the description because the suit is different that the one Gwen saw him last time, even if is a small change.

Not to mention that hey, she opened the portal directly to Miles, right? Woudln't that be something they would had notice if she went directly from HQ to him? She probably needed to put some special coordinates because she didn't even know Miles was in his home when she came to see him, just that he was there.

So with all those pieces, what's my theory?

Gwen went to Hobie's universe to get ready, to get some stuff from him (since their styles are probably closer that whatever the heck they have in 2099) and maybe to also to avoid been seen by the organization. And in a rush, she mentioned to Hobie that she would see Miles, and probably not much else since she left so much crap there and the guy didn't even realize she took his shoes.

Again, a lot of this is speculation, but the idea of this girl going to get those shoes to look nice when she met Miles again, JUST to have him be jealous about it-

I had been taking breaks to laugh while writing this post; I love these idiots I swear.

[ghostflowerhotpotch]

Meet the Parents Part 2

Okay, once again, I rambled for too long and needed to do a second part. Sorry that this post is also coming delayed, real life stuff comes first.

Part 1 to be up to speed!

You know? Maybe it was for the best that the post got cut short, I realized of a small detail that didn't notice yesterday.

The sequence where this four frames are from last around a 1 or 2, I am not really doing this in any professional fashion so I cannot say the exact time; but it is pretty quick, even at half speed.

But you can see how for a moment, Gwen either realizes this is not going well, or drops the enthusiastic persona for a second. Either way, I think it shows that this is not going how she expected.

While Gwen hasn't heard enough to know it was a bad idea using their first names, I don't doubt that Miles talks about them fondly.

She got along well with May and Ben (I notice later that there are some flashbacks including Ben.) And that probably meant a lot to her because you can see how prevalent was the relationship between those families, eating together, talking, etc. Almost like a family.

I don't think Gwen would like to replace Peter and his family, but Miles is not a replacement of Peter anyways. She probably wanted meeting them (Even if I am sure she didn't want to have this meeting today,) would run a lot more smoother.

Because she knows Miles loves his parents, and they do sound like good people; she didn't even seem to think this could actually turn so awkward.

This moment just last a couple of seconds at best, so this goes fairly quickly.

And again, I am not saying this because I want to paint Miles' parents in a bad light; even if they are not giving a fair shot to Gwen, all things consider they are been extremely patient with Miles.

(I really need to do a post about that.)

Now going back to where we left it.

Oh this scene is so hard for me to see.

(Sorry, but DAMN the representation here; this didn't exactly happen to me, but similar enough that is giving me the most embarrassing flashbacks. No I am not saying this is an universal experience, just very painfully real to me.)

Okay, Miles' parents are being over protective here? Oh for sure.

While I think their actions are very logical and understandable once you remember they have no idea what Miles is doing; this is really the part where Rio and Jeff shows us they also need to mature in this movie.

And I don't say it as an insult; a lot of parents have trouble with this transition, and Miles is their first and only child; with said child suddenly not acting as the same kid anymore.

(Sidenote; I am surprised Miles doesn't have any siblings, Jeff and Rio look so in love I am surprised it didn't happen.)

I love how Gwen just takes her hand back, like "well damn I didn't even get a date with him and his parents already are telling me to back off."

Also oof, poor Miles. Honestly forget three months this is probably worse than that already.

Rio making that joke is painfully realistic and let's move on to the other part of that dialogue.

I think Rio and Jeff aren't just trying to establish some rules with Miles (considering the amount he has broken today,) but they also need to reaffirm themselves of being able to dictate what's going on Miles's life.

Again, this is coming just after they grounded him, and then he dipped out. They are feeling they are losing him.

I love Rio, I do, but ma'am this is how you get your kid to keep even more secrets for you.

Not much else to say here, this is the lesson she and Jeff need to learn. Miles is (probably) still hating being alive right now; and Gwen is somehow able to keep that composed face despite everything which has to be one of her most impressive feats in this film.

I honestly have to feel it for Gwen right now.

She probably knows the alert her watch is giving her is bad news, so she really doesn't have another choice.

Forget not making a good impression with Jeff and Rio, now she just lost her chance to have a decent goodbye with Miles.

At this point I don't think she would had admitted to herself this couldn't happen again, I think even now she hoped for another chance later down the line. But there is no idea to know when.

I have no idea what she would had said if she had the chance to say goodbye on her own terms, to his face; but it was certainly not what she ended up doing.

Girl, 3 years being spiderwoman and you can't still come up with good lies for situations like this?

Ok I cannot blame her for not being able to come with up with something better; this entire conversation was already not going well and now she basically needs to flee, which doesn't help.

Oof, look at Miles's face, he really looks so heartbroken here.

For all the awkwardness Gwen has sported during this conversation, this is among her most natural expressions; while she is probably not stranger for dipping early, I do think this is not how she wanted to leave.

Gwen really didn't want to leave, at least not leave Miles. While she couldn't really explain what was going on, I think she wanted to let him no that this isn't about his parents or him, she wouldn't be going out if she didn't have any other choice really.

Jeff hasn't really said much during this conversation, mostly having judgy stares at most, but you can see his expression become a bit more open once he sees Gwen's behaviour change.

Rio I think is trying to maintain a mask because she probably also caught on this looking a bit off, but also because is around here that she starts to realizing how much Gwen means to Miles.

I think is also around this point that Rio seemed to want to say something else.

She could just be trying to say goodbye, but I think her expression and her hand point out more than she actually wanted to intervene here.

I am pretty sure that regardless of how Jeff and Rio felt about Gwen, they didn't want to make her run away like that.

Because again, they are missing context; Gwen is leaving because the Spot flee and she just got herself into a mess, Miles knows this is related to spidey issues.

But as far as Jeff and Rio are concerned, this girl tried to be friendly (way too friendly for their liking but friendly nonetheless,) and is now running away after Rio decided to play Mother Hen.

(Sorry, that joke may not be understandable in english. Mama Gallina/Mother Hen is an expression used a lot in my country for moms that are very protective of their kids.)

Oh, this shot.

This is an interesting comparison because when Miles heard that Gwen was leaving, he looked so crestfallen; she could see it so did his parents but he didn't register the fact that it was so pain this was for him.

Gwen maintained a somewhat composed face to them, but on this shot that she is giving everyone the back, she looks so sad.

This, is basically their relationship in a nutshell. Miles wears his heart in his sleeve and can't help himself on it, and Gwen tries her hardest to keep her emotions at bay, but everything so often they creep back.

This is awkward, and it looks awkward, and this is really more into speculation territory than analysis, but I think she did it because she wanted to go for a hug, or similar.

I had mentioned in other posts how I believe Gwen is an affectionate person, or at least, someone who likes and seeks physical affection to those important to her.

The way she went to hug her dad both at the beginning and end show how much she craves affection; and how she barely contained herself before hugging Miles tells me not just that she probably has even less people to hug nowadays, but how much important he is to her.

But she probably doesn't want to upset his parents more, and his mom told her just a minute ago to basically leave Miles alone; so this was the best she could think of.

Nobody is really happy. Even Rio and Jeff are realizing how uncomfortable is Gwen; thought again, they are probably thinking this is all their fault.

This is really the moment when Rio and Jeff are probably realizing that whatever the heck is going on with Gwen and Miles, is important to them, or at least Miles.

Again, Jeff and Rio are worried, and they have no idea what Gwen's situation is, Miles mentioned she left town but they didn't even believe she existed prior this so they probably doesn't think that's case. Or even if it was, well, keeping contact can't be that hard in this day and age right?

(Sadly, Miles really needed to fall in love with a girl who to get in contact with you need technology from another timeline.)

Miles is 15, and they just met this girl, they couldn't imagine how much she matters to him, specially with all the secrets.

And here, is when Rio finally can let her own feelings aside for a moment, and see her actual son, and not the idea she has of him.

Of course, he is just staring at where she is at, no idea when he would see her again.

A part of me wonders, if he would had tried to go and say something else if his parents wouldn't had been here.

I really, do think Gwen wanted to say something else.

Now with all the context, it makes me so sad to see Gwen leave, and still have trouble to actually do so.

Because she knows this meeting wasn't suppose to happen, and she has no idea if she could ever repeat it or when. She has been so focused on Miles she completely neglected the mission, heck, she even neglected to keep an eye on the guy, which wasn't even so much of a fix for this situation.

You know? Something I kept thinking while analyzing this scene, is how is not just Miles struggling to keep a civial life and a spider life, Gwen is going to the same thing, or similar enough at least.

At this point, she has embraced the Spidey life, she literally has no other choice because she cannot go back home. Her life as Gwen Stacy was gone; being able to just be a carefree teen is left by the times she can be crashing at Hobbie's dimension, and even then, you see that is not enough.

In this sequence, she tries to go back to those patterns, like the camaraderie she had with May, or the jokes she probably shared with her dad's buddies.

But it doesn't go well, and her last moments with Miles were extremely awkward, and them discussing about the organization.

This all feels just like a bitter reminder, she can't be just a teen anymore.

Is a shame, because on the Clock Tower we basically confirm, that Miles was the only person that could make her feel that someone was seeing her for all her. To combine those two worlds she belonged.

But she can't have that now, just like she believes, she can't have Miles.