#we all know why she doesn't like shiv lol

[thegetdownrebooter]

Tbh it's interesting to me that Kendall is somewhat Marcia's favorite and he doesn't even like her

lmfaooo, that's funny af, but i personally think marcia might have had some "boy mom" tendencies from amir and maybe she thought he needed a "gentle touch" from a mother figure in order too function normally or handle logan's abuse.

I also think there is some plain pity mixed in like, she knew about the accident and she knew it was eating ken up on the inside so even even though marcia was in love with logan, she probably thought he was doing too much torturing ken for the entirety of s2 and maybe some basic empathy kicked in when she called him a "good boy".

Lastly it's actually pretty fucking interesting that marcia actually like, shields ken's body when logan lunges at him in austerlitz.

Not only is she the only person in the room who is actually attempting to stop him from attacking ken (i don't think roman counts) but she could have easily be overpowered by that angry old man, but she did it anyway.

I don't even think caroline has attempted to protect the kids in such a way, like ever, and to top it all of marcia doesn't even owe her middle aged stepson anything and that action didn't even benefit her because if logan had hit her instead, then the roys wouldn't even have come to her defense or anything, so that means that she protected him out of pure instinct, because she has a son of her own and because she thought logan was going too far.

That being said ken is very nasty and weird about marcia, i mean never to her face of course (he doesn't have the balls) but it's his racism+misogyny getting mixed up, like he couldn't stand the fact that daddy valued a brown woman's opinion over his.

[bamboobrat]

succession s4 e5 recap: swedish elon and his logan roy tribute band

time is a flat circle and we are back to ken hyping himself listening to rap, driving to the office.

anyone feeling nostalgic yet?

he is immediately caught off guard by the fact that roman and shiv are already there.

also he seems like the worst boss ever.

i really don't like ken when he is not hitting rock bottom.

(there is a movie about a sleeping robot in a cave that takes up too much time in this episode. let's not get into all that)

the old guard checks up on the CE-bros before their trip to norway.

matchy matchy<3

turns out mattson wants them all there (why wouldn't he?) so THE GANG IS GOING TO NORWAY! lets bleed the swede!*

*as a norwegian, i approve this message

mortality has set into team krank, as they put on compression socks before the flight.

krank is not here to have fun. krank has no young mistress to impress. krank is serious.

shiv has noticed ken's leaks to the media from last week because she is boss. it's the comeback we've been waiting for.

but most importantly, she is waging a very important war against tom and his stupid new sneakers:

the sibs say they can kill tom for her. that's brotherly love.

hugo is not having a good time.

i am tho.

gerri rallies the troops by shitting on europeans.

yes mommy tell me i'm weak because i have free healthcare! sit on my face

gerri for CEO. always.

they accurately depict what it is like driving in norway:

(this is why i don't have my licence)

the gang arrives in the motherland and it's beautiful, but rainy (so authentic) and are all like WHY THESE WOOD CABINS SO SMALL?!

ironic because jeremy lives in fucking denmark.

anyway, whatever this is:

I DO NOT APPROVE!

the trip up to mount olympus is interrupted by con saying he can send a picture of their dead dad to the group chat.

nobody wants to see it.

also, marcia is putting logan in a kilt like the fucking bay city rollers and con had to cancel a room full of working class whites in cleveland. the sacrifice.

they give con carte blanche for the whole funeral thing, which is probably a terrible decision.

the funeral is going to be one big campaign rally, i'm serious.

the others have to settle for a nice lil scandi brunch spread. what a hard life.

i don't say this often, but i would be hugo in this scenario, piling onto my plate like it's nobody's business.

karolina has a cute lesbian moment.

she says something in swedish at some point, but let me tell you, i understand swedish and i didn't even pick up on it. no shade to dag, but lol.

hugo doesn't understand how ski jumping works.

i thank the writers for putting this joke in there, even if literally no one other than random scandi people will get it.

it's like the opposite of danny boyle's the beach<3 give back to the community<3

roman enters negotiations and puts his fingers in the caviar.

you think i didn't notice? after all this time, you must know i notice everything.

the CE-bros make the village elders proud, as mattson offers 187 per share as long as he gets ATN.

also, gerri does a second take looking back at roman. these are the crumbs i am destined to live on, i guess. roman doesn't want to give up ATN tho, probably because 1) his dad wanted ATN 2) his dad told him he wouldn't make it at pierce and belongs at ATN 3) he is, somehow, the most rational of the siblings right now????

speaking of rational: how are we feeling about the shiv/mattson potential here? i honestly have zero objections.

shiv is like fuck yeah, sell ATN, that shit is toxic.

agreed, but who gave mencken an open line to ATN-meetings? sounds like something logan told cyd to do during one of those late night calls.

"even dad had a line" rings true zero percent. pass.

get rid of atn. word is, they don't even have tucker carlson anymore? just keep a sweater, much less racist.

we get some important leo dicap representation:

and greg is the bringer of all that is exposition, telling us there is a kill list with 8 to 9 names, ever evolving.

now, as most readers of these recaps would know, i would like to avoid spending any time on greg whatsoever (made even more poignant by the recent rumors about nick), however, this must be one of the best exchanges of dialogue ever made:

greg: da fam shiv: da fuck

that's all.

tom tells the swedes that americans don't care about the rest of the world and it's funny because it's true.

and alex being like "you're ALL related?!"

i see you, succession writers, i see you.

mattson calls waystar a parts shop and has a good take on right wing media:

"i dont think news for angry, old men works"

instead, he opts for bloomberg grey: simple, cheap, huge, ikea'd to fuck. i do love ikea.

he calls the sibs a tribute band which is harsh. even for a scandi, it's fucking harsh.

anyway, SAUNA! SAUNA! SAUNA!

GERRI. IN. SAUNA! (chant with me)

i will never forget what the succession writers took from me.

krank out here just chilling.

i've never shipped anyone more.

we are introduced to ebba. i can tell i'd have more to say on this in any other situation, but it just feels weird (all norwegian know each other, i guess).

anyone else here for the shiv/mattson dynamic?

i'm sorry, i kind of ship it????

ken wants to tank the deal and roman immediately calls him out on his destructive bullshit:

and then immediately caves.

"i think we are good at running the ship" they say after doing it for approximately 24 hours.

i wish i had their confidence.

also, pinky can't dance, according to ken, so they keep shiv out. meanwhile, she gets cozy with lukas, who asks her about her marriage (bad) and tells her he sends liters of blood to ebba (also bad).

shiv shows us why she is paid the big bucks for political advice:

we don't see the end of their night, so i'm just going to assume they fucked. because she's worth it.

also, talking up gerri and karolina? girlies stick together<3

big bi vibes here. huge. idc if she's pregnant and drinking.

meanwhile, the CE-bros use greg to leak that the negotiations are souring. why would you trust greg with anything?

in an attempt to fuck the deal, the CE-bros show a terrible film to the swedish team, as if being scandi doesn't mean you've sat through enough terrible cinema already....

we get the strangest fight in tv history:

lol @ us for thinking this was an important moment for the two of them and then it's a fight about white sneakers and fat earlobes.

i sure hope shiv fucked lukas.

roman receives a photo of his dead dad and it doesn't really put him in the right place to negotiate with mattson:

ouch.

leave it to kieran to make an emmy-worthy speech across from alex skarsgaard peeing.

the plan was: tank the deal, but in a subtle way. what they did: try and tank the deal, but in a not very subtle way. did the deal tank: no.

i hope you understand.

the question is, if a deal collapses in the woods and no one hears it, is it a SEC violation?

mattson ends up offering 192 per share. karl jizzes his pants.

shiv gives the little spelunker tom a lil treat, telling him to fire cyd.

then she asks him out?

and ignores him again because she is taking a call from mattson?

idk my dudes, but i'm into this shiv comeback.

mattson seems happy and flirty and i sure as shit hope this goes somewhere.

as long as it doesn't involve liters of frozen blood.

i have a feeling it will be all good vibes until he learns about her pregnancy. there's always something rotten in the state of denmark (or norway, or sweden, but it's all the same).

the waystar-team receives the kill list after the offer and it's very stressful for a few people who made themselves suffer through a session in the sauna:

not on the kill list: karolina gerri tom because shiv fucking did the thing!!

oh, and karl and frank are on the kill list, but i think they are just fine.

maybe the real treasure was the compression socks we made along the way.

[pynkhues]

Unpopular opinion anon. I really enjoyed Roman but I think I watched a different character than everyone else lol. The big one that's getting me right now is I don't really get the masochism takes? I didn't really read him as seeking punishment or only understanding love through pain... I don't feel like he was really seeking that out for the majority of the show. Also I think I may be alone in thinking Roman has kind of a normal(ish) relationships with both of his full siblings?? Like I don't get why everyone thinks the golden trio abused each other. Roman is such an asshole younger brother who turns protective the second Kendall is actually down. Like Roman can be terrible to them but also he loves them so much and it's the switch from jerk to "drop me a pin" that's I think is a core aspect of that character.

I just don't think I understand the fandom version of Roman or maybe I made up my own version and that's the one I like? At this point I honestly don't even know haha

I thought it might've been Roman you were thinking of, haha.

Yeah, there's a lot of interesting interpretations of him in fandom, and I think in some ways he's probably one of the more ambiguous characters on the show. I was just reading this little interview snippet actually and thinking how the interviewer's read of Roman as someone who has a lot of crazy adventures is so antithetical to how I see him. I tend to agree with both Kieran's reply and the OP's tags there though that Roman likely has a pretty good ear to the ground socially in order to project a certain image, but doesn't necessarily actually live it.

While it's not my personal read either, I do get where people are seeing it when it comes to the masochism factor. I think there's a valid interpretation of canon there between Roman courting violence with the protestors after Logan's funeral, and the complex scene with his and Kendall's hug in the finale, and I can see why people draw a link between that with things like the dog pound and Roman getting off on Gerri berating him.

There's texture there, y'know? Even if personally I agree with you and don't think they're especially linked. I tend to view Roman's seeking punishment or the murky tie between violence and love in 4.09 and 4.10 as being very explicitly tied to Logan's death and the void he's left, especially because we don't see it at any other point in the series. I also tend to view the dog pound as kids being kids (more on that in a sec), and I also don't know if I think Roman would get off in that particular masochistic way if it wasn't specifically Gerri doing it (I feel like that particular storyline and romance was that perfect storm of the taboo of it all, the hiding in plain sight, his mommy issues, and also just him generally being really into Gerri).

As for their childhood, yeah, I agree with you there too. It's one of the things that I love about the show actually is that the siblings can be mean, can squabble and set each other up to fail, but the love there is real. Like all their feelings for and about each other can be really complicated, but the love they have for each other just isn't. Gosh, Shiv even says it in the finale - she loves Kendall, but she can't stomach him.

That read of the kids abusing each other I do think tends to directly come from the dog pound game, or setting each other up (Kendall and Roman leaving Shiv with the chocolate milk, Kendall and Shiv leaving Roman with the water pistols, etc.) which I really think is pretty normal sibling behaviour. In particular, I've talked about the dog pound game a bit, namely here and here, and about fandom reads of Roman as the most abused here and here if you're interested in reading more!

But yes! I don't think you made him up. I think he's a character where a lot of different readings are possible because he does carry a little more ambiguity / we know less about his past than we do Kendall and Shiv's which invites more speculation and, sometimes, projection too. I think my read of him is pretty close to yours though.

[monstress]

succession finale thoughts

rewatching already because i need to write this down while i'm still on that finale high

the immediate problem of the episode is stewy making drama. i love himmm

why would "golden parachute" frank even be in the consideration to vote 'no' for the deal??? we're grasping at straws here oh i feel for tellis despite his soulless blond self

NICKY BEE FIRE IT UP ONE LAST TIME ... god im gonna miss this theme song 🥺

when shiv said that tom is easy to manipulate while mattson is looking at the political cartoon of them. what a blunder

shiv calling her mom an associate in front of mattson slkflskgls

"are there any positives about the nightmare we've shared?" "yeah you've fallen in love finally. fallen in love with our scheduling opportunities." goddddd im so obsessed...yessss they're so awfulllllll like so true jesse make this show also a story of their marriage noah baumbach whomst????

sorry to be so kenstewpilled but the white button down, sleeves rolled up and this line???? delectable. i must speak my truth here like how could stewy not vote 'no'?

new jess.....good for you Jess you escaped this sinking ship

i gasped seeing kendall's sunglasses this episode. that has to be japanese made. nowhere else in the world make such stylish sunglasses. gorgeous pair

greg makes 200k? per month OR year????? answer me. answer meeeeee

love the Lawrence name drop! like we miss u king

the entire lukas and tom dinner scene is sooooo

tom confessing all he he built was sand and he's paranoid to keep what he has. mattson knowing he's hungry but wants to know if he's willing to betray shiv

THEN lukas immediately belittling shiv : she was pushy, she wasn't as vital as i thought she'd be, i'm SUCH a big man i know everything, she's fuckable and she wants me too

and TOM eats it????? so mattson chooses him !!!!

ugh i dont want shiv she has a lot of ideas and i want to fuck her ugh fucking disgusting ubermensch i hope jeryd doesn't win ohio and waystar royco gojogo get FCC up in their ass

alexander skarsgard's line read and acting choices r amazing tho

me to my sister: why haven't any of them used a live translator to check what the swedes are talking about? (greg in the final episode uses one) OK FINALLYYYY

shiv screaming from another room is hilarious

logan promised kendall ceo when he was seven.......the crown prince.....if dad didn't need me i don't know what i would be for.....

shiv and roman bonding at the beach after election night. when they're doing impressions of kendall and knowing sarah and kieran are each other's fave scene partners....this scene was the one that hit me that i'm watching the FINALE finale

meal fit for a king scene....when i watched this scene i was all smiles but underneath the DREADDD knowing they might be showing this because it may be the final time the scenes are happy together. oh honey. we got a big storm coming.

not shiv saying all that to willa and connor not getting slovenia in the end....the terror

the iphone video dinner scene? cheesy as fuckkkkk im sorry that was sentimental as shit and maybe a tad unnecessary. i did cry tho i did...

"IT'S FUCKING TOM." the fight in the bathroom??? mattson rallying his crew???? the convoy to hq??? with THE MUSICCCCC???? FUCKKKK UGH HOT UGH!!!! GO OFF NICHOLAS!!!!

loveeee roman's all black outfit. so chic! (he's still mourning 🙃)

and we cheered. if anything else, us gay stewy truthers won succession

(also noticed that in the above pic - the only picture of the kids on logan's table is shiv. forshadowing? maybe, maybe not but lol)

the final 20 minutes of the finale *screaming into a pillow*

like roman immediately spiralling upon seeing gerri. doubting himself, questioning his autonomy, his worth. and did kendall....break roman's stitches on purpose. to like?? steady him somewhat??? good god. what the fuck.

shiv in this shot like...this is the closest to ultimate power she'll ever have and she's reveling in it. despite herself, she enjoys being kingmaker. that's why she went into politics

it's just. i wanna wrap my head around why shiv didn't vote 'no'. is it because she *has* seen the toxicity of protecting this company infect her brothers during election night? they should take the deal and get out? is it to freeze kendall and roman out of the company as they often had done to her? if i can't be ceo, then no one can? and mattson wants tom to be the ceo and i get to manipulate tom so i win this battle? i can keep my proximity of power by virtue of being a woman that my brothers would never have? is that it? does this make sense?

(but we all know mattson is keeping tom because he's a yes man. he won't have any real power in the waystar royco gojogo so like *sad kazoo noise*)

kendall lying about the manslaughter not being real. the real thing they've bonded over??? just because it may not make him ceo??? jelly-spined move

shiv laughing kendall going 'i'm the eldest boy' and walking away going "fucking child". lmaooo deserved

i wonder if roman saying all that abt sophie & iverson is a way to distract kendall from shiv, maybe even a little spite to get back at him for supposedly lying abt the manslaughter

roman going "we're nothing." yeah...yeah....you are.....

(but they have 195 per share....so)

kendall clicking the elevator to floor zero. cinema.

the one guy entering the elevator with kendall. has he been oblivious abt what just went down? if it were me, i'd wait for the next one

tom being ceo slgjklskglskglsklhgsfglskg

him keeping gerri and karolina this is a win for the glass ceiling shatterers /jk

and tom keeping greg? will he needs someone to bully since mattson&mencken is gonna use him as a punching bag in turn lol

yes the tiger! he destroyed his cage! yes YES the tiger is out!!!!

i truly can't believe that roman came out of this series unscathed (somewhat). like his breakthrough this episode? him realizing his self worth has been hinged on inheriting the company aka his father's love? time to go back to therapy

(also him drinking a martini because that's gerri's favorite drink. what a choice!)

and friends i was rubbing my hands with anticipation when tom approaches the car just hoping hopingggg shiv was in it and when it turns out she was??? i was chanting 'hand in unlovable hand' over and over and when tom offered his hand??? i was fully clapping it AND when shiv TOOK IT?? i was fully screamingggg

in all seriousness, what a bleak ending for shiv. relegating herself as the wife of ceo. just like her mother. the power dynamics of the man she think is beneath her is now her husband and the father of her child and in the company position she coveted all her life. she can never win...she willing stay in the tarpit....shiv my tragic girlfailure i love youuu

when kendall shows up in the park in a tweed coat i was like 'oooo i hope colin is behind him' and when they pan to show he is?????? i was cheering. the micheal corleonification of kendall roy

head under water.....aaaahhhh ambigious kendeath my beloved <3

[mermaidsirennikita]

Have you caught up to succession? Tomshiv are kinda giving everything in all of their scenes esp the recent one !!

Yes I have! Another great episode. I'm borderline offended by how much people infantilize Shiv Roy. Let her be a disastrous asshole!!!!

Shiv has so many of the traits we see with problematic~ male characters (including her brothers and father). She's cold to the touch and has a hard time expressing love, she's possessive of the partner she loves while also not wanting to be openly and fully loving, she stabs her loved ones in the back, she acts quickly without thinking her moves through, she's very smart but not as smart she thinks she is (and I think a lot of that is less an intellect thing and more an experience thing--because she was never trained the way Kendall was, which isn't her fault, she's trying to skip the line as if she's spent years learning the ropes, and as unfair as it is, that's just not how it works).

But because Shiv is a woman, I think people want to assign this victimhood thing that the show explores in terms of examining the sexism she faces, while at the same time not acknowledging that Shiv is a misogynist who peddles in misogyny. Let's be fuckin' real here--it's all the wall. Shiv has no female friends we see onscreen, no deep female relationships... Her giving token "let's keep Karolina and Gerri on board" lip service doesn't count, because she'll also silence assault survivors when it suits her and teams up with a man who... whatever his relationship with Ebba actually is, it's not appropriate and Shiv KNOWS THIS. And it's no surprise, because Shiv's main female influence (her mother) is absent and cold, and otherwise she's spent her life competing with her brothers and desperate for her father's affection.

The thing is, you can say that Tom has done bad things to Shiv and vice versa without erasing what the other party has done. Tom fucked Shiv over and has said some really cruel things to her... If not things that are, like, entirely incorrect (I mean, would Shiv be a good parent as she is right now? Let's be serious, look me in the eye and say the woman we see now should have kids lol). Tom used Shiv to climb the social and professional ladder, something I don't think Shiv was unaware of when she married him because she's an intelligent woman, he spent hours dithering over how to please Logan on his birthday in the pilot, and people have literally joked about it onscreen.

But we also watched.... how many seasons? Of Shiv straight up emotionally abusing Tom? What would everyone say if Tom cheated on Shiv and invited his lover to the wedding before copping to the affair and then suggesting an open marriage? What would they say if Shiv spent so much time freaking out over going to prison, while Tom just sorta went *shrug* and even joked about it? (Mind you, Tom was never even told by Shiv, as far as we know, that she begged Logan to choose Kendall as the "blood sacrifice" over Tom.) What if Tom was about to fuck Shiv, physically on the brink of doing so, and went "btdubs, I don't love you and you're nothing". (That scene, as much as I love it and as much as Shiv tried to play it off as being kinky... while never negotiating the supposed play lol............. would read VERY differently to a lot of people with the roles reversed, imo.)

So basically, I think Tom and Shiv are terrible people. They're also toxically in love and can give each other things neither one gets from anyone else. Shiv is a hot billionaire; she could have virtually any man she wants. She's with Tom because there is a level of transparent emotional connection I don't think she's found elsewhere, even through the pain. He gives her the validation she wanted from her father, which is why she can't quite let him go and is so distraught whenever the threat of it being taken away is real. I think Tom really does love her--but she also values the fact that he is a social climber, and she can give him a level of status, a physical commodity, that nobody else can really give him. (Or... very few can. Notice how threatened she was by him being seen with Naomi Pierce, one of the only other women who can give him all that.) I think she also sees a level of a funhouse version of what her life could've been in Tom. Her saying "Your mom loves me more than she loves you"... Well, girl. At least Tom's mom loves him on some level, lol. Shiv's mom doesn't love her, and she knows it.

And Tom of course loves all Shiv can give him, and I think Tom's natural ability to become whatever he needs to be in the moment suits him very well. He can be the catty corporate dude, Shiv's plus one, seductive???? (HE WAS WEARIN' THAT PUSSY OUT IN THIS EP???) He also does probably have a minor degradation kink. Nowhere near what Roman is dealing with, but a little treat. But I also think that when her vulnerability slips through, it's like a high to him because it's something no one else gets.

So yeah, they're everything to me and I need people to stop clutching their pearls and recognize that everyone sucks and it's great.

Also, loved what everyone else is doing. Kendall is hurtling towards oblivion. Amazing!

[saint-cecilias]

Re: Shiv and Roman, doesn’t Shiv also frequently make jokes about Roman wanting to f*ck both their mom and dad? I always kind of thought it was just how they are with each other. Rome def took it too far this ep, but I think the audience (and Shiv) know that it’s a coping mechanism, which is why he was so shockingly OTT before the funeral, bc it was him at his lowest point emotionally (see also the comment about f*cking Marcia on the way up). Doesn’t excuse it, but I think that’s why it didn’t make a lot of noise — plus we’ve seen him make jokes like this before but we haven’t seen him break down like that, so it makes sense why that was the main take away for people, I think. :)

lol see i'm not really trying to rationalize why Roman said what he said. i'm dealing with WHAT he said. and the fact that it was disgusting. point blank.

as her big brother, his go to response to her confiding that she was pregnant to Kendall and him was to say that he was gonna jerk off at the sight of her breast-feeding her newborn. also inferred that they should have sex??? and that he should knock her up. lol i mean......

saying it was a 'coping mechanism' is making excuses for remarks that are inexcusable. lol like tee hee some brothers sexually harass their sisters a little just to cope.... with the death of a father. the death of a father they ALL lost. not just him.

and Shiv was uncomfortable with his remarks. she was already reticent to tell them about the pregnancy and then to have THAT be one of her brother's reaction must've felt super shitty on the way to their father's funeral. in fact, she was upset enough to the point where Kendall had to step in and stop Roman from continuing with ~jokes~.

and just cause Shiv usually gives as good as she gets and is "used to Roman being like that" doesn't mean she should be subjected to that kinda bullshit.

and this whataboutism re: Shiv making jokes about Roman's oedipal tendencies doesn't hold water for me cause Roman has openly talked about how he wants to fuck his mother figures whether it be Marcia or his actual mother. he has NORMALIZED it.

as i said Roman breaking down was heartwrenching. Kieran made me weep in that moment. and i'm pulling for him to win best actor for his work this season. it's been incredible.

but ALL of the siblings are hurting right now. Roman being in an emotionally fraught place doesn't give him carte blanche to be gross to his sister. she is also dealing with the loss of their dad, a troubled marriage AND she is pregnant.

[tinylilvalery]

Hate her stans so much, because we should be happy that we're getting nuanced female characters nowadays, but people sand her down to this poor mistreated girlboss whose husband never loved her, and doesn't appreciate all that she's done for him. Which isn't even true? Her asking her dad once about sparing Tom, without much detrimental effects to her isn't such a huge sacrifice, sorry he is her husband that's what your supposed to do. I truly love Shiv in the show, but I can't enjoy her on here. She is such a complex character, with realistic flaws for someone who grew up like she did. I get being annoyed with people who are saying she is the worst of the siblings, cause I don't think that's fair. They are all a different shade of Logan. But I think it's childish to assume there is no valid criticism of her character. Fandom is so afraid of being branded misogynistic for criticizing a woman, that they in turn make her the only one that is one dimensional.

God, everything you said is 100% spot on to the point where it pains me. Fandom is so afraid of being branded misogynistic for criticizing a woman, that they in turn make her the only one that is one dimensional. and we should be happy that we're getting nuanced female characters nowadays, but people sand her down to this poor mistreated girlboss whose husband never loved her, and doesn't appreciate all that she's done for him.

NO COS LIKE ACTUALLY THO! The funniest thing about that anon was they wanted to pull the ol "sorry but i cannot follow anymore" but I'm like,,, they really mustn't have been following me long or actually engaging in my account because the BIGGEST thing I champion is I DON'T WANT BLACK AND WHITE CHARACTERS, I WANT GREY CHARACTERS. and this is something I haven't shut up about since 2012 lol. And I especially get shitty that we don't get enough grey female characters. Let them be fucked up and wrong, I'll love them for it, don't get a female character that's written fucked up and wrong and just victimise her and make her a hero who has never done anything wrong....

Ima add a CUT below because this turned into a ginormous essay about grey characters, sexism in writing, being reductive, and blah blah blah

Give me the grey. Give me the complex. Give me the flawed. Give me the human. I don't want Good or Bad because that doesn't do it for me. It's not real. And you know what, this applies tenfold to female characters because there is such a lacking of them. I think male characters have been allowed to be human far more than female characters (this is mainly a result of male producers, male directors, and male writers, who have a history of only writing a female character in as a plot device to serve a male character and strengthen that character in some way. The female characters don't get to be human because we live in a world where it's so normalised for women to be completely dehumanised and objectified, and so a lot of men don't actually see women as more than an object of sex or of conquer and so that's how they've mainly been written - BUT I DIGRESS). They're allowed to be flawed, fucked up, antiheroes, tragic villains, scummy, ect ect, and yet they still get to be humanised, and what I mean by that is they get to have an opening in them for audiences to be able to empathise with them and relate. A character might be morally fucking awful, but if there's humanity there too then audiences can connect and relate, hence why I think a lot of people relate to male characters and care about them over female characters. The male characters get to be messy in comparison to female characters who,, if they are messy it's in a sexy way or they're some sort of antagonist. It's rare that they're messy cos they're just fuckn real and human,, and yet when we get these rare rough gems with an iceberg of character to them, suddenly all these people that called for a complex female character, want to reduce them ONLY to a tiny bit more than the tip of the iceberg, and they usually do this through victimising the female character like some sort of damsel in distress incapable of helping themselves.

And then, then oh boy you have the characters like Shiv. The female characters that get to be fucking complicated, they get to be human, relateable, fucked up, flawed, empathetic. Other female characters I adore are Kim Wexler, Joy Wang, Luv (BladeRunner2049), Abigail Hobbs, Fleabag, Love Quinn, Jessica Jones, Maren Yearly, Camille Preaker, Lisabeth Salander, Amy Dunne. If you know a few of those characters I hope you get the idea. They're so fucking real. In fact I feel like Shiv is actually one of the realest female characters we've been gifted in recent years because of her flaws. Her internalised misogyny which she prides herself on is something I don't think I've ever seen explored so fucking well, something that is VERY present in society and the female experience since girls are brought up with the notion that they're the weaker sex and they're emotional and boys only, no girls allowed. Shiv is GOVERNED by this internalised misogyny and it's instilled in her due to her father, her brothers, her absent mother, and the capitalist corporate world she's been brought up into which instil this misogyny and encourage the idea of having to over perform in comparison to your male peers to be treated with a modicum of respect that they're granted based off their sex alone. This system which encourages the thought that women are secondary, and if as a woman you want to be primary, you have to be part of the boys club and never stop to look after a fellow woman, instead beat them down, get rid of that competition, climb over them, be the cool girl, be the stone cold killer bitch.

The thing is, Shiv is a product of her upbringing and environment, but I don't end her character at Well ultimately she's a victim. She's how she is because external factors and therefore anything "wrong" she does is blamed on said factors, because she's the fuckn 1% and a fully grown adult woman (who isn't a psychopath, so she does in fact have empathy even though she tries to smother it because she believes it's a weakness): she is VERY capable of seeking therapy and working through her shit. Like, it actually is possible for her to become a better version of herself. But she doesn't and THAT is something that is fascinating and opens up so many doors for further discussion of her character. Does she want to change and get help? Is she aware that she can? Is she so repressed and so buried within herself that she has no awareness of herself? Is there hope? Is this emotional atrophy something that started as choice and is now something that rules her? Was it ever a choice to her or was she trained to be like that? Can she wake up from it all? Can she ever learn to be vulnerable and have genuine connection with another person, especially one outside of her family? Is there any hope for her? Is there hope for us to change?

But the stans don't get this far in discussion. Occasionally I see some venture there, but it's a rarity. They get as far as: she's/her actions are a product of her upbringing/environment, and they end the discussion there. They cut her character short, and they reduce her to what I've been so vocal against for years: A simple two toned female character. Love Shiv for her good side. Love her for her bad side too. Even though she does shit that pisses me off, I'd prefer it TENFOLD to her being a Simple Good Victim that has done no wrong ever.

The thing that I find SO fucking irritating about the Succ fandom, is they can read the text, but they can't seem to be able to comprehend and decipher it in it's entirety. People write essays, make gorgeous comparatives, recognise parallels and production techniques such as lighting, blocking, camera work, costuming, music, audio - but it only seems to extend to (not all the time, but a lot): anyway, my character is the victim. They did this bad thing but it wasn't their fault. Poor baby. I relate. And I'm not saying you can't woobify your character for fun, cos fr, enjoy media however the fuck you want, BUT when you start screaming out buzzwords when someone wants to criticise a character on their own blog,,, well maybe it's not really just for fun for you anymore is it? Again I'm not saying you're not allowed to get emotional about a fictional character, get involved in discussions and respectful debates that don't devolve into fingers in ears and name-calling - hell, if you're doing that that means that the writers, actors, and directors have succeeded in creating something very special that people care about and connect over - but when you start going out of you way to send anon messages and name call some random you don't know at all (and your message shows how little you understand that person at all),,, it,,, yeah that doesn't seem like a good thing at that point. I wonder if people are aware that you can enter into a respectful debate with someone over something and come out of it the other side with no hard feelings and no emotional damage... Fr, try it with a friend, it's actually such a good time.

The Shiv stans sending salty anons calling me misogynistic for calling her out is funny cos like,, I've said it before and I'll say it again, I have NO hatred for her character, her stans are just fucking annoying and reduce her to a victim with no accountability and instead want to shit on other characters and their fans as a way to divert blame (Shiv stans' fav scapegoats are: Tom, Logan, Kendall). And it's the same with Roman for me. I LOVE the character, but I find the stans so grating in how they tend to find him a scapegoat for everything and reduce him down to poor little puppy dog with no accountability, despite the fact that HE'S the one who's being a fuckhead (screwing over his siblings for approval from Logan, repeated sexual harassment of Gerri, gross sexism mainly in a verbal form usually directed at Shiv). Even Tomgreg, the ship that actually got me into the show, it's actually more difficult than not for me to engage with other shippers of my fav ship on the show because they are so reductive and have misread the ship (and Tom and Greg as individuals) so much it's fuckn nauseating. Succession really is a show where I love the show, but the fandom is so fucking... jeeeeesus. Yeah I've said it before and I'll say it again, I can't wait for the fandom to die off after this final season cos I feel like the only people that will remain will actually be open to talking in depth about the characters in a way that isn't governed by how blorbo the character is to people.

The thing is, I don't even think you can rank the siblings from Best to Worst (you're SO RIGHT about each of them being a shade of Logan). I think ultimately how the characters are written and how the actors play them, they all appeal to us differently by how much you can relate to them. This is a show about villains, people we would hate if they were real and existed. They're not good, and so if you're watching Succession to judge Who's a Goodie and Who's a Baddie then you're missing the fact that they're all fuckn bad. This isn't a show about the fight between good and evil. It exists outside of that narrative. It's a show about villains, and what makes villains compelling is they get to actually be bad and get to navigate in a way that isn't restricted to likeability through general morality and good vs evil. These mfs don't even care about morality or ethics beyond using it when they want to to get some sort of leverage or to convince someone to go along with their plan. The fact of the matter is, they're objectively all shitty people, cos I believe anyone that's part of the 1% is a shit person who's happy to benefit off a system of class that oppresses those at the bottom and doesn't care about anyone but themselves and their own money. And this doesn't just stop with the siblings, this is basically everyone in the show. I love The Old Guard, Karl, Frank, and Gerri, but I also think about all the fucked up shit they turned a blind eye to in order to get ahead and stay close to power, all the fucked shit they helped Logan accomplish, for power and money, not for anything that would positively impact the world or anyone besides Logan (and moreso themselves). Like, even Tom who I love and who's probs my fav character, called himself a horrible prick and has shown that side of himself to Greg for the whole show, lauding his power over him and doing all that he can to stay in Waystar, happy to be completely blind to morals in the process. And I still love him all the same because he's a fascinating and complex character who is brought to life by the phenomenal MattMac and with glorious writing.

If you recognise all the shitty things your fav character has done and yet you still love them,, that's real shit. I don't want a surface level character, and I especially don't want a surface level understanding of an extremely nuanced complex character - it's wasteful and honestly disrespectful to the writers and actors who have put in so much work to create such nuance and complexity in their character to bring them to life and make them sm more than just a 2d cliche. I want to sink my teeth into teh character and fall down the fuckn well and explore all their psychology. I want their light side and I want their shadow side.

Anyway yes, thank you anon for being intelligent and actually engaging with me over Succession. As you can probably tell (whether you read this essay or not lol) I'm a big fan of deep dives and critical analyses of fiction tehe :P If anyone read this far you deserve 1 million golden stars god damnnnnnn 🌟⭐🌟

[crystallineirises]

Golden Globes Live Blog (SPOILERS)

Every single man speaking so far has been irrelevant

I am also *super* stoned right now let's get that out of the way

J. Smith Cameron looks so good first of all (shout out to the Slime Puppy discord for those early photos)

Danielle should take it for black people but I would not be mad for May/December lol

...YAY BLACK WOMEN GO SIS literally haven't heard of the Holdovers but I'm THRILLED and she got to meet Angela oh MAN

*may/december music* IDK anything about RDJ on to the nex

Lenny Kravitz looks HOT it transcends my lesbianism

is that Amanda?? She looks emaciated i hate that unless it's not her which is possible, i didn't unmute in time

JUNO GET IT SIS

Lol Rachel's selfie headshot

Can Ali win it for us YEAH SHE DID

Seventeen years away from the stage lol

Don't know these people on to the nex

wait is that the boy that was on This is Us? The Manny? What the hell is his name oh it doesn't matter

I feel like Jon might take it? Just sensing?

A SWEEP! A SWEEP!

*May/December music*

HERE WE GO IT'S J'S CATEGORY

This is bullshit lol

That deep breath J. took before they announced the winner I SAW THAT AND I FELT THAT

Hannah Waddingham's wink though

My mom "why is everyone's eyes red" LOL CAUSE THEY HIGH AS ME but seriously Ray

This show could be 1 hour without all this bullshit lol

Our other babies let's goooooo

Lol Lucas ain't here

Tom winning the show winning the company winning the Golden Globe

YES THEY LET KIERAN IN AND IS HE NEXT TO J wait no they didn't lol there's someone between them why can't we win

HERE WE GO this category is full of superstars it could go either way I am nervous

YES YES AND YES Jeremy is kinda fine with his lil v neck and his lil subtle chain

These intros are so fucking LONG I do not CARE

I need to smoke so more but I'm waiting until after Kieran's category lol

I love when a movie wins several things and I'm still like..that still looks boring

I can only hope that she just thanked Snoop Dogg lol

Women in comedy on tv let's get into it YUH

AYOOOOOOO it's Ayo AYOOOOOO SWEEP NUMBER TWOOOO

OKAY BABY

MANIFEST even though it's stacked

WE GOT ONE

MY BABY

SUCK IT PEDRO

MY HEART

I AM TOO HAPPY ABOUT THIS

*May/December music*

Do you think that getting super high and watching the Super Mario movie would be fun yes or no

Yeah that makes sense

That love and support look WAS very loving and supportive though

I feel loved and supported

Hey Michelleeee

I like when women walk out holding hands

"and very MUSCULAR" is this gay is this gay

This is gay lol

*May/December music*

Everyone is happy for her like they're friends it's very cute lol

Also love that dress she looks adorable

"okay bye" she was real for that

This Oppenheimer sweep is boring to me but my mom says he's a good actor also this score sounds GOOD

Oh I see that win cause it sound GOOD

This boy looks like every experimental electronic music grad student we used to party with

LENNY still looking fine

Billie got this, right?

Yeaaaaahh boi

THIS AWARD IS DUMB YEAH I SAID IT

Otherwise Barbie wasn't gonna win shit but we like having fun lol

Okay smoked another bowl we BACK IN IT

ISSA IS SHININ

BEEF SWEEP BETWEEN THE BEAR AND BEEF ISSA BEEF SWEEP

it's getting SERIOUS

SWWWWWWWEEEEEEEEPPPPP

"it's so good it's so good. it's one of those shows you watch and while you're watching it it's like...it's so good". - crystallineirises on The Bear

SEEING THE WHOLE CAST UP THERE I WANNA CRY

the restaurant COMMUNITY *snap snap*

i'm so high bruh lol my mom keeps talking to me and i'm like *LOUDLY TALKS ABOUT SHOWS*

she talmbout drapes i do not care hehehe

OH LORD IT'S SARAH'S CATEGORY

CAN WE JUST GET TO IT

Does she have a crush on DuLaPeep can she stop

SARAH WE GON DO THIS

SHIV ROY NATION

MANIFEST

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH

EMMY PREP IS DONE

I thought Kieran was gonna climb up there

WE GETTING FUCKED UP TONITTTEEEE

I love that we're following her backstage lol

I hope they let all our babies go on stage I wanna see J. looking hot

WHAT A TIME THAT WAS (era of Succession Sunday)

HAND KISS FOR THE AGES

THANK YOU FOR THAT

J Move your way to our man please

Where he at

Alan Ruck is SMIZING

We do like Roman and Shiv reunited

Greg get outta here

lol TomGregs winning

J IS SO BABY

The Morning Show girlies looking so goooooooood

Jeremy and his lady getting it ON who is that

I do like Kelly Clarkson's wayfair jumpsuit lol

I'm stoned enough that I'll let the commercials play without muting

*May/December music*

get it get it get it get get geti

this j. lo / ben / matt throuple energy is strong??

THE GOLDEN GLOBES HAVE NOT CHANGED *dead emoji*

Wonka got a nomination what

Black man for the win i guess

Paul's alright, does he win stuff? Ah he's won things

Okay where are the afterparty photos THE AFTERPARTY PHOTOS

NICE. Kid graduated from college? NICE.

WOMEN!

GAY WOMEN!

LOOKIN DYKE SERVING CUNT I LOVE IT

I love that Matt and Ben are just like we besties that make movies *kick legs in the air*

MAY/DECEMBER *music*

Also the choice to enter May/December as a comedy is outrageous

Bruce Springsteen is Joni Mitchell for white men and I love it

"Powerful old people" - crystallineiries after seeing Helen Mirren and Harrison Ford talking

"If it's Covid, Paxlovid. BARS!"

I've only seen Maestro so idk lol

YAY CURVY GIRLS

YAY MOMS YAY NON ENGLISH LANGUAGES

I wanna see Leo cry I want single tear

FOR THE PEOPLE

Her beautiful mother *crying emoji*

wooooooowww

MOTHER OTHER MOTHER SISTER AND FRIEND

The makeup and glasses and dress she's everything

I miss hearing her voice all the time

Maestro really was so good

A24 putting in work this year

Sweep SWEEP people like things that go boom

Like your fit Emma!

HANNAH

Meryl looks gorge as usual

Emily SHINING TOO

It's after 8 can we wrap this shit up??

Thank you good night *peace sign emoji*

[phoebe-delia]

What did you think of the ending of succession and Ted lasso?

Hey anon! Thanks for the ask!

Okay so, first of all (obviously), spoiler warning for both shows. And, anon, I'd love your thoughts on both as well!

Ted Lasso:

I really liked the ending overall. I liked Rebecca selling 49% of the team to the fans. I liked Ted going home to spend time with Henry. I liked Nate's redemption arc, and I also really liked Roy coming on as the new coach. I'm glad Rebecca ends up with that guy she met on the boat. I have kinda mixed emotions about the way the Keeley-Roy-Jamie love triangle ended. I didn't love the two of them going to her and making her choose; that felt very immature to me. So I'm glad she sent them both away, and that Roy and Jamie will still get to be friends.

I don't entirely know how I feel about the team ending up 2nd in the premier league. Like. I get the point was supposed to be like "oh winning doesn't matter because we grew as a team and as people!" but it just would've been so SATISFYING for them to like FULLY win and really stick it to the haters, yk? But I guess a win over Rupert/West Ham was really the most important thing lol.

Succession:

I thought the ending was, like the rest of the show, pretty damn genius. I loved the siblings going from that sweet moment in their mother's kitchen to later fighting in the meeting.

I loved how Tom ended up on top (even if it was as a sort of puppet lol) and Shiv decided the quickest way to power is to reconcile with a husband she doesn't like very much. I LOVE their relationship it's so fucking toxic lmaooo. They're SO mean to each other. Also Greg is a little weasel for being a double agent, but when TOM PUT THE STICKER ON HIS FOREHEAD LET ME TELL YOUUUUU I SCREAMED THAT WAS FUCKIN GENIUS!!!

Kendall...Kendall Kendall Kendall Kendall...I'm really glad they didn't just like do away with the storyline about him being responsible for the waiter's death. Like I love it being one of the catalysts for Shiv to make the decision. She's ultimately right—he's too unstable. And, heartbreaking as it is, I see why she votes the way she does.

To sum up: therapy. Therapy for everyone.

Thanks so much again for asking!

[david-box]

Succession season 4 EP. 6 or whatever it's called idek tbh

Is this a flashback? Oh, nvm. This sounds like nonsense. He looks pissed. Yep, there it is. Ouch. I can feel the tension. Kendall why do you wanna watch it again. This is self harm buddy dude, my guy.

Brian Cox is a fucking phenomenal actor. And now one can stand up to him the way he should have been. Rest in piss you piece of shit. Is Mattson trying to flirt with Shiv? Dude she will fucking eat you alive. "Yoo-hoo". Well yeah they're just minding the shop for a few hours but dude you know how a business works right. Mattson dude you can't order that thing. He is the world's most crusty man while she's sitting there literally glowing like porcelain bruh she is so for out of your league and married and also crazy. Dude. Dude. Anyhow lol. "Start the engines" hahahahahaha. He is too tall. I think Shiv just likes she can abuse him with like the true honesty of her situation and he'll come back because he doesn't even want positive reinforcement. He just wants honesty.

Very light tan. Hey Rome going back into the studios. He took Shiv"s seat what the fuck?? Hi Tom! Kendall's shit he just said was so useless I forgot to listen and had to back up also Shiv grabbing her phone loud enough for him to notice and quiet enough to "not make a scene". I think he genuinely didn't notice. Or her slapping the phone down. Nice job clapping for yourself Ken. Who gives a shit about the company after this take the money and runnnnn. "Huh, well, what exactly happened??" Lol, Shiv. Gently pressing him. Sure. Roman is not lying well. Yes. You can recommend it. Take the money and run. Exposed to what. Bruh. That's also 50% cash. Everyone fucking leavvvevsa ahhahhahahaa. Kendall is a bad liar. Shiv is like why you fucking lying. She says yeah a lot. Thanks fuckface they're bad at this lol they didn't tell her cus she'll call them out. No you literally cannot keep ATN and Pierce. Roman is sorry. Is he trying to hug it out??? Roman I love you. They are so bad about reading her. Opp I forgot about the baby. Oh it's the same building nvm.

Why is she crying??? *About to breakdown* I'm fine DW about it. Aw. I don't trust him. Aw shiv no don't kiss your ex back. Jen listening in and they don't seem to care. Is he drinking??? What the fuck is personalized longevity. Fuckywood. Ahhaha yess sit like that Roman yeehaw love that shit. Mm tummy full ???? Roman???? Ahahha lol. I think it's hit im. "Mattson is flaky" <- man who is bailing on $194/share. I don't think this investor gives a shit. Oh this isn't an investor? Let's sidebar it girl? She is not confident. Well you want me to say more things? Lol. Roman buddy you're not listening to her. •_• uhh. Bruh. Dude. Why is he firing her. What the fuck. Bro??? Why??? Kendall what the fuck does annnnyyy of this. Ken. Oh this poor girl doesn't know how Kendall is. Bruh. Bro. "Don't say no Denny" no one can do no is a terrible thing Kendall buddy. These people are crazy.

Matthew what's his face is an incredibly attractive man. Aw they're being misogynistic together <3 how sweet. She's dressed up in what looks like a gi with a belt?? This is a bad time to apologize dude. How is it working. Is it working? Oh he's teasing her. Okay. Please neg eachother more it is very fun to watch. She does have her mannerisms down pat. Are they actually gonna bite eachother??? Bruh. Ahhahahahahhahaha. Oh my god. I think Tom loves that more than Shiv does this is so fucked up he finally gets to bite someone. "Tom wamsgams finally made me feel something" is such a roast. All you need is unbelievable growth?? Dude. I think it's hard to make houses seem like tech. Cus we've had houses for a while now. Greg I love you. We don't have the numbers Rome. "Ehh ehh" bruh. They're literally latching onto it because of Logan. Please talk to other people. Who's gonna kill themselves first. Thank you Gerri. Ouccchhh. Are you gonna fire her too. Dude. Bruh. "No" lol but she can't say that. Romannnnn never piss of Gerri. Kendall has zero ability to read emotions. You fired Gerri??? Smooth over? Bro? KENDALL. KENDALLLLLL.

Did they fuck right after they bite eachother. "I don't entirely hate you" was what she was gonna say. Mattson songs. Oh man. Bruh bad opener. I picked money. Ouch. That's harsh. Is he from a trailer park. She might actually do it dude. Bruh the green screen is STILL THERE. Are they gonna deep fake their dad??? "Or I'm gonna get in trouble"??? "Understand Mr. Snippy Snip???" What the fuck Greg???

Kendall they can't just build the numbers. It's gotta be credible but we're lying lol. "Can I talk to Karl." I. Lol. "You're taking jibberish." KENDALL. Kendall. He was not kidding. Let's just pressure people into this it'll work. Goddamn Shiv has nice outfits. Flirting with Lukas sarcastically in front of Tom making him feel like he's the other woman?? Bomb threat???? I love you Lukas.

Nice to see you back, Kendall's black glasses. It will be just this. I hope those oh those are real clouds. Okay. I was gonna say I hope they crash but it's just gas. Why is he upset. The numbers are from up there.... Okay. Roman is the most influenciable of the lot today. He's got that gleam in his eyes. Why do you have to back it Roman? I think we should protect him oooooo..... A flight jacket. Dude. You cannot say anything Kendall. I can sense Roman is 100% the younger brother. Is this all in one day?

Maybe ....wee..... Shouldn't... Do it? Or maybe postpone. He's so sad omg. It is nuts. We do not have to. You stupid people. Roman tries to stop Kendall and then he tries to pull himself out. Break that leg TM. Karl's getting pissed lol. I don't think he can pull rank by age he's gonna het fired lol. He'll fire you. Lol. Go Grandpa go.

Gerris still sitting there. Who is this even going for. Roman saying it like that means not good. Also wtf is Tom saying. Is he playing music. What the fuck. Omg. Omg. Omg. Omg. Omg. Hey uh. Yeah. Just say it 3 times it'll better. Roman would be so much better poor Tom. "Amateur". I was dusrupting our annual meeting I - bruh. I gotta quit typing. What the fuck. Living plus till the end????? He didn't even retire???? Bruh. You can't promise this. What the fuck. How did they manage that??? What the fuck. What the fuck. What the fuck. What the fuck. What the fuck. What the fuck. What the fuck.

OOHHH MY GOD I HAD TO GOOGLE IT AAAAA. WELP. THAT PUTS THAT IN THE GROUND. Dude you don't have to Google it. Lol. Trying to turn it around on Karl and then immediately backtracking into "generals" lmao. He's very European??? Bruh. The fuck does that mean. Kendall cannot spin any criticism. And now, give it up, for Tom Wamsgams!! So his weirdness is *rehearsed* or??? He deleted it? Damn. It's not gonna climb above 194? "I don't even remember it it was kinda a blur."

Seriously scared Romans gonna kill himself rn. He's just listening it to on repeat :-( oh my god.

It is obviously not going to be party and strategy. They're cute together. Is he drawing an arrow??? You're not gonna drown yourself right. Kendal. Kendall. Kendal. Kendal. Kendal. Kendal. Kendal. Kendal. Kendal. Bruh. Okay cool.

[oreganosbaby]

can we know the bad takes

Ok sorry for not answering this sooner and yes, this is about the few Especially Bad Roman Takes I rotate every so often. I'm sorry if anyone sees their own take here but, it's not like I'm documenting this shit so, I'm not gonna link it or whatever lol.

Roman doesn't have an erectile dysfunction; I won't go into why this is stupid.

Roman's submissiveness only extending to his father but, otherwise having an actual will to power which like ?? hello??

Roman being basically a rapist/sexual predator; I understand why people think this if early s1 Roman has been seared into their brain but, like it's also wrong and dogbrained because Roman can't really impose himself on anyone in that way on purpose nor does he really want to. Like, his whole deal is about wanting to be desired and objectified as like someone who is helpless, weak, delicate, and pretty so, this is antithetical to that. He wants to be the prey.

Roman having a Madonna-whore complex is why he is uncomfortable with the idea of Tabs having lots of sex, Gerri having a boyfriend or the possibility of her having gotten fucked by Logan and doesn't respect Shiv; This misunderstands what a Madonna-whore complex is and also, Roman's relationships with sex and gender in general. Going back to my last point, Roman simply doesn't identify with the subject of the Madonna-whore complex so, he wouldn't have one. The subject is usually a straight guy who compartamentalises sacred and profane love causing him to desexualise the women he respects/admires and loves, usually mother figures but redirects his desire to women he doesn't respect. So obviously, I think Roman's relaltionship to the ideas of the virgin and the whore are a bit different and usually have him as an object within this schema rather than as the subject. Also, for all the comments he makes about Shiv's sexuality, I doubt he's thinking of it hard enough. Like, as his sister, she shouldn't exist in this schema if he were the subject in it. Besides, mere quantity of sex wouldn't make someone a whore. It's how "easy" you are.

[loverboyromanroy]

girl, i'll be honest-- i really don't care much about the business side of Succession (lol the irony) I only live for the drama, but I'm really interested to see how our queen Gerri (and Karl, Frank, Logan too) will fit in the new dynamics of this GoJo merger (?? not sure what the correct term is) Like, I'm not even sure if Gerri was demoted back to general counsel or still interim CEO at the end?? Mattsson might bring in new faces and the kids are basically fucked on the side so...

also, kind of excited to see Lukas and Gerri interacting, not gonna lie. More Gerri content for us to devour pls :<

i think...that's very fair lmao because the business stuff can be very in the weeds! but unfortunately i was a business major (sorry!) so i do genuinely enjoy the maneuvers of the business side of the show

that being said, i've been contemplating the business aspect of the end of season 3 and am curious about where they'll pick up in season 4...read more because of course i wrote too much 🥴

will we walk through the whole deal going down or are we going to have a time jump to the company being fully acquired with a brand new corporate hierarchy? we spent SO much time on the attempted stewy/sandy buyout (which was obviously because they were contesting and fighting off doj, etc, etc) so i feel like they'll have to show SOME of the deal-making...but then again that was hostile and this one isn't, and the switch was flipped so suddenly that maybe we'll just open season four with no more waystar lmao

technically gerri is still interim ceo at the end of season 3 and lukas is buying them to stay on as ceo, so in my mind she steps back into a general counsel role (especially because she's presumably part of the legal team facilitating the deal). i think in a practical sense they could/would offload karl, frank and maaaybe shiv...BUT i also think there's a possibility lukas keeps roman on in some capacity, even if logan doesn't ask him too, ya know? we've seen that lukas and roman get along and that lukas was amenable to roman staying on...when he's making the pitch to logan in 3x09 he literally says roman would be the face of the waystar part of things as they integrated the two companies! i think that got lost in the 3x09 finale scene because roman threw himself behind his siblings but like...lukas wasn't a part of that, so...

the flip side of that, of course, is that maybe lukas was bullshitting and he'll kick roman to the curb with everyone else...or maybe logan orchestrates it so that both of his kids get dumped but...i don't know, i feel like there's potential there for him to stay in.

speaking of logan...i think tom selling out the kids was such an interesting choice because like...logan's getting bought out! why curry favor with someone who's literally in the process of walking out the door! maybe logan is angling to stay on as chairman of the board, which would put him and lukas on similar levels...in the pitch scene lukas offers to keep the board balanced and says logan can stay on for the "assets" he likes, so maybe he's chair and heads up waystar media or some such? the guy's fucking 80, he really shouldn't come back in at all, but alas, we know he won't step aside fully, so he's gotta get folded in somehow and i guess he's gotta bring tom in with him?

i will say that at first i didn't love the stunt guest casting (i felt like adrien brody and sanaa lathan were oversold and ended up being characters that were just flash in the pan), but i LOVED what skarsgard did with matsson and i am very much looking forward to him being a bigger presence in season 4

[sigurdjarlson]

What if Greg's gay dad is actually Greg's bi dad? (pun not intended lol) On a related note, do you think Greg holds more resentment for his dad or for the man he left his family for? (Greg doesn't want to be like his dad but in the Tom/Shiv/Greg situation wouldn't Greg be more like the man his dad fell in love with, & Tom would be like Greg's dad(dy lol) (though Tom's in a different situation - no kids)? Basically, who is the real homewrecker - his dad or his dad's lover?)

He could be bi for all we know! Maybe he just wasn’t in love or fell out of love with Marianne. We know Marianne has plenty of issues also so maybe that played a part in why he left.

Technically you’re right Tom would be more like Greg’s dad since he’s the one who’s cheating on his wife. (This is actually why I think Marianne would not like Tom once she meets him and picks up on the vibes between him and her son)

I think when people call Greg’s dad a homewrecker they’re referring to how he wrecked his own home by cheating on Marianne and running off with someone else. Also by abandoning his son.

(Again though we don’t know if he ever tries to make an effort to stay in contact with Greg? Did he just leave and vanish? Did he try at first and then eventually just stop? What was Marianne’s role there?)

We don’t know anything about Greg’s dad let alone the guy he left them for so whether the other guy was married too or in a relationship.. we don’t know.

God there’s so much we don’t know about Greg and his immediate family it drives me nuts lmao. We need a good Greg backstory episode or better yet give him a personal/emotional arc next season.

But as for the question who’s the homewrecker? His dad is more at fault than anyone I’d say. He was the one who was married, cheated on his wife and left his son. We don’t know what his lover’s thoughts on any of this were. What if he didn’t even know since that happens.

When people cheat it’s common to blame the person they cheated with more than the cheater I think (I think it’s a way of placing blame elsewhere because it hurts less than sitting there and realizing your spouse/so chose to hurt and betray you. It’s so much easier to be angry at someone else)

And while the other person is obviously not innocent either (unless they don’t know about their relationship/family) it’s significantly worse and hurtful on the cheaters part bc of the emotional damage it does.

As for whether Greg would blame his dad or the guy more..I think his dad. For the reasons mentioned above. Maybe when he was a kid he held a lot of resentment for whoever “stole his dad away” and maybe to some degree that is still there too but I think the natural course of things as he grows up would be to realize his dad chose to leave him.

Also he’d have grown up dealing with the emotional wreckage he left in his wake with his mother who apparently isn’t the most stable. So that would double the feelings of resentment and anger when he sees his mom suffering.

Him choosing to leave Greg too would hurt more then anything though because he could have divorced Marianne and still been in Greg’s life. It happens all the time. He didn’t have to abandon his son too. (We don’t know the specifics of why he isn’t in Greg’s life either so it’s hard to say)

But either way I don’t doubt his dad’s affair and him leaving left a lot of emotional devastation in its wake that Greg (and Marianne) still struggles with.

[elcorhamletlive]

opening here a space for you to talk about tom and shiv specifically because that's also the car wreck I can't keep my eyes from

Anon first of all thank you for this space. I held back from answering because I wanted to watch everything and be updated on the state of their relationship in canon before responding.

Now that I have... I'm fascinated by them. It feels like they're a rare Bad Couple in television where, while I get why their relationship does not work, we're also shown just enough of the good side (and of their personal fucked up views on the matter) to understand why they think it can work.

Maybe that's an unpopular opinion, but I think Shiv does love Tom, maybe more than she has ever loved anyone she's been romantically involved with. Pre-show Shiv feels, to me, like someone who is, maybe subconsciously, attempting to move away from their family's circle of toxicity and abuse. Not because she recognises it for what is it, but because she knows she will never be considered as successor and it pains her to admit how much she wants it. So she tries to look for what she wants in other places - building her own pile, if you will. Tom fits into that because he's far from being separated from her family (as he desperately wants in on all the wealth and status), but he also offers an amount of certainty and loyalty that Shiv has probably never experienced before, and I do think she finds this attractive in him.

This is why I disagree with Logan's take on their relationship - while I do think Shiv probably finds the fact that Tom is beneath her from a social standpoint a plus, I don't think that's the sole reason she married him. We don't know for sure when Tom started to fit into her life plan, but it has been mentioned a couple times, by Shiv, that she was in a bad spot when she met him. I don't think it was just about finding someone she could control (from what we see of her dynamic with the dude she cheats on Tom with, it's not like she wasn't the one in power in any relatonship before). It was also about craving the kind of simple, easy, certain love that she never had.

But I also think this desire is conflicting for Shiv, and I think she kind of resents/is embarrassed about the part of her that does enjoy Tom's over-the-top devotion as a lover and partner (this is related to Shiv's aversion to showing vulnerability, which, in turn, relates to how she constantly has to compensate for the Inherent Flaw of her gender by being more efficient and ruthless than any of her brothers). She wants a healthy relationship, but she can't truly take the time to be open with her husband and consider his emotional needs. The whole "it's not a big deal that I cheated because we're both adults and we don't have to be monogamous" spiel is partially her gaslighting Tom, yes, but to me it is also her own desire to make that narrative stick. She does want him to be comfortable with the arrangement. She just... you know, doesn't want to do any of the emotional work that would need to be done even if he that was something he also wanted lol

As for Tom, I think his infatuation with her is partially sincere and partially him being dazzled by everything that comes from being a part of her world. He is fascinated by the idea of belonging in that dynasty of ridiculously rich people. At the same time, though, he is in love with Shiv, so I think, pre-show, everything seemed to be going as he wanted to. But Succession is very unflinching about how unfulfilling this world of massive wealth and power can be, and I think this catches up to Tom fast, and the fact that the emotional side of his marriage is not strong enough to balance that out hits him hard. He's not happy, but he's also unwilling to let go of Shiv entirely - he wants her to love him, and so he tries to not show how much her actions truly hurt him (his freak out with Greg in Safe Room when he asks for an "open relationship" in a business-like sense is basically him projecting what he couldn't express to Shiv at the wedding night, but I'm far from being the first to point this out).

By the time season 3 happens, he's pretty much grasping at straws to keep their marriage afloat. He's scared of going to prison but when he finds out that this won't happen, that nothing in his life will fundamentally change, he's not happy. He wants a child (and keeps track of Shiv's menstrual cycle, which is a fucked up detail that people seem to not mention much) because he wants a concrete proof of his bond to the family and to Shiv - but, also, I think, because he wants something he can love that can properly love him back. Then, when it becomes clear he can't get the love he wants, he resorts to a power play, in the hopes that this will fullfill him this time. It's the roynification of Tom, really.

The finale leaves them in a pretty rough spot, so I do wonder what will happen between them in the future. At this point a divorce seems obvious, but I'm thinking maybe Shiv won't want that, because Tom is a link she could possibly use to make her way back to the company. So... I don't know! I just know they're endlessly fascinating to watch and I can't wait to see what more happens to them.

[somewhatvaguely]

Hey, I saw your post about tom being an enneagram type 2. I agree completely! What do you think the other succession character enneagram types are? I waffle between 6 and 9 for Greg.

I CHERISH this ask, anon. What a good one.

I think it's tough impossible to type people without asking them direct questions, since the Enneagram is less about what they do/how they do it and more about why. And that's harder to see. Then throw in the fictional element, and the fact that it's Succession, a show all about hidden motivations, and uh... but we'll give it a swing.

Logan: 8 (The Challenger). Wants power. Wants control. Easy peasy.

The Golden Trio: I think it's tempting to assume they're all 3's (The Achiever), because when we meet them, they're all vying for Logan's approval and they all appear very driven and image-conscious. That said, I would argue that only Shiv is a 3 at heart. So the others?

Kendall: 1 (The Reformer). He cares about the way things are done, is intense, and has a strong sense of right and wrong - imo, the fact that he's continually ignoring that sense of right and wrong fuels his addiction issues. Even though he can be an egomaniacal hypocrite (affectionate). I am close to labeling him a 3, but what stops me is his early conversation with Logan about Vaulter. When Logan mocks him for wanting to do something "good," as if this is a fatal flaw. Logan hurts him later on by twisting the knife about the boy drowning - his sense of morality. And then Kendall calls him evil to his face in "All the Bells Say," because to Kendall, that is the worst thing a person can be. Even Kendall's image-conscious and egomaniacal moments are tied to his morality. His birthday party, wanting to sing "Honesty" and be hung up on a cross, to be... super subtle about it. In the wake of the Cruises scandal, he doesn't just want to be useful like a 3, he wants to be seen as a woke hero.

Roman: 7 (The Enthusiast). I'll just copy and paste: Unable to discriminate what they really need, become hyperactive, unable to say "no" to themselves, throwing self into constant activity. Uninhibited, doing and saying whatever comes to mind: storytelling, flamboyant exaggerations, witty wise-cracking, performing. (x) and then an unhealthier level: Desperate to quell their anxieties, can be impulsive and infantile: do not know when to stop. Addictions and excess take their toll: debauched, depraved, dissipated escapists, offensive and abusive. Gerri and the photos, tripping Kendall at the party.

Shiv: 3 (The Achiever). Some label her an 8, and I get it. But I think what Shiv wants most of all is to be useful - "to feel valuable and worthwhile" (x), and to impress other people. She often calls attention to her own usefulness in a way that makes me feel awkward, like she's getting off on the idea a little bit. (See her comment to Tom in "Argestes" about how she's outside the Cruises scandal, that's why she's useful - there's just something about her delivery, her tone that stands out to me).

Greg: I waffle on 6/9 too. He does have a bland unflappability, and that weird optimism/trusting nature (9). That said, I feel like when shit hits the fan, he panics on a comedic scale (attack child, what?!) (6). This is a tough one, so I say pick your fave, lol.

I'm going to keep theorizing on other characters (Connor's a 9, Stewy's a 3, Willa's a 4, Gerri's unknowable), but this is what I have for now. Anybody else, thoughts?

Disclaimer: the Enneagram is more like astrology than science, imo, it's just fun to think about, especially in fiction.

[mermaidsirennikita]

Can you please talk more about your thoughts on Roman sexually harassing Shiv?

Idk, I think it's pretty straightforward. Roman sexually harasses a lot of people, when you consider what sexual harassment is. It's not necessarily leering aggression or a prelude to an assault attempt. It often has nothing to do with how the person feels about someone on a sexual level--I don't think Roman wants to fuck Shiv, at all.

Sexual harassment is simply making inappropriate (and as such unwanted) sexual comments towards someone. It's baked into a lot of our culture. I think that, probably in part due to his own sexual trauma (which the show never makes explicit, but I assume happened) and his own experience of sexual harassment (his father constantly making comments about his sexuality) and the general weird sexualized way in which the Roys and those around them discuss *basically everything8, Roman identified that this was a good way to make people uneasy. He's seen as weak, the runt of the litter; so he has to add weapons to his arsenal. Shiv is the one girl in the sibling set, and is sort of put on a pedestal by Logan and also by her brothers because of this. I imagine that also made Roman resentful. He and Shiv are the two youngest siblings, but even the way Kendall treats Shiv compared to how he treats Roman can be quite different, something the show pointed out as early as season 1, when Shiv knew she could get Kendall to budge on shit by pouting. (In a sense similar to how Roman's behavior is "trained" through familial dynamics, I think Shiv's is too, and ultimately, despite sometimes wanting more, she ends up defaulting to this ingrained feminine stereotype the family has enforced and she has at points taken advantage of througout the show, in her ending.)

I think that while Roman's treatment of Gerri is more what we typically associate with sexual harassment because he is sexually interested in her... Sexual harassment is under a wide umbrella. "I'd lay you badly but I'd lay you gladly" said to your workplace subordinate who has told you multiple times that it ain't gonna happen is harassment; but so is suggesting, repeatedly, that your sister's baby is yours, or suggesting that your sister wants you to rape her. It's not said to get Shiv to fuck him, but it is said to make her uncomfortable. And I think it's probably such ingrained behavior that he doesn't necessarily realize he's doing it or, on a conscious level, why.

I think that because we in the show are also so used to Roman's behavior, and because there is this like... childlike manner in which people view Roman, this behavior that is fairly obviously super inappropriate isn't clocked as much. But I remember a lot of "oofs" from the date rape comment when people were first watching the pilot and livetweeting, because they weren't desensitized in a "oh that's Roman, he doesn't know how to talk to people in a normal way" manner. It's true, he doesn't seem to understand boundaries, or even his own sexuality. But that doesn't make his behavior... any less what it is.

I mean, I also think that basically all of the Roys (maybe Kendall least, but still Kendall lol) could benefit from going to a sex therapist, but that's just me.