#when it's more like maybe you should feel sorry for israelis murdered by hamas. And maybe you should feel sorry for palestinians in Gaza

[tonya-the-chicken]

I have this feeling like everyone pretends that russo-ukrainian conflict is extremely complex when it's simple as heck while simultaneously pretending israeli-palestinian conflict is extremely simple when it's complex

[matan4il]

911 ep 702 first watch reactions

Man, IDK. Maybe I shouldn't be writing about this. I'm an Israeli. I'm currently living a continuous trauma. The end of 701 already felt a bit difficult for me. The start of 702 was even more so. And maybe I don't have the right to speak about this, being Israeli and watching a show that is American.

But then I think... yeah, it's an American show, but it is made knowing it will be aired internationally, including in Israel. It's an American show, and plenty of American Jews have family and friends in Israel, maybe they had a similar reaction to mine. It's an American show, and I am not American, I am probably not someone they keep in mind when they make it, but I am a human being, and as such, I have the right to share my experience. Even if it is unique, and not one single other viewer felt the way I did when watching 702, even if no one else reads or gets this. We are all valid as human beings, with our unique experiences, and that does include me.

It was hard for me, seeing civilians being held hostage at gun point, when 134 of our hostages are still kept in captivity, and when I heard so many testimonies from people about the many hours they spent staring down the barrel of a gun, or being under siege.

It was hard seeing people made to kneel with rifles pointed at their heads, then Norman, a character we've gotten to know more than the average vic on this show, being shot. There's a specific vid from Oct 7 that this made me think of. It was CCTV footage, showing a girl who was fleeing Hamas terrorists, and they ended up with one catching up to her, she was on her knees, the terrorist was aiming his rifle at her head, and she was begging for her life. He let her go on like that for several long and excruciating to watch seconds, where it was like... maybe it won't happen, maybe he won't shoot. Then he shot her anyway, and her body fell back from the impact of the shot, and then to the ground.

It was hard seeing Hen's decision in the field being questioned, by others and at times herself, while thinking of all the soldiers and commanders who are being questioned, and are questioning themselves, on whether they made the right calls on the day of Hamas' massacre, and the days leading up to it, which enabled the brutal, torturous murder of so many. I've even seen civilians do that, like Rami Davidian, who's being interviewed by many for being a hero, driving into the scene of carnage repeatedly to save others, most of them strangers, and at least once I heard him saying he feels guilty and sorry for all the people he failed to save.

It was hard watching Bobby and Athena saying their last goodbye to each other, when I have spent almost half a year listening to people sharing their last conversations with their loved ones, and watching too many saying their last goodbye at funerals. I just recently wrote about Libby Cohen Meguri's last phone call to her family, when she had already been shot, and all she wanted was to tell them that she loves them, but her mom was too in denial.

I feel like I should say something about the storytelling, about how great the show is again, how this is a multi-ep disaster done right, with the correct balance between the regular emergencies, the big one, and the personal lives of our protagonists with their familial love for each other, with a great build up, both from one ep to the next, and within the eps themselves... A part of me does notice and is happy about that.

But most of me just can't. That's trauma for you, I guess. And to borrow the words of one Eddie Diaz, I'm scared that I will never feel normal again.

[dogsliampaynedoesntinstagram]

Hi Ralph. I hope you’re doing as well as you can be and I thank you for being so patient with all of us.

As someone who’s been involved in social justice movements, organizing etc, how do you deal with confusion, conflicting feelings, and nuance? And how do you handle a potential disagreement with a close friend about it? Also I’m sorry that this is long. I’m thinking out loud and I don’t expect you to answer the questions or even the anon. It’s more to represent my conflicting thoughts and I was wondering how you deal with this kind of thing. Obviously I’m not struggling compared to people there, or the majority of people anywhere, but I thought you might relate, maybe?

My friend (she’s fifty years older and like a grandma to me) is Jewish and supports Israel completely, is a democrat. She’s brilliant, funny, has her phD, has traveled, knows Palestinians, dated one while living in Europe, etc. She said that he believed that members of groups like Hamas cared more about glory and freedom than the health of their people. We were talking about pro-Palestine tweets among Taylor fans. She said she hopes someone like Taylor would come forward supporting Israel and condemning Hamas. I agreed with her aloud even though I don’t agree. How would you deal with this situation?

I’m conflicted about Israel/Palestine. I don’t know if Hamas cares about regular Palestinian lives. I wonder how many Palestinians they thought would die after Israel retaliates. It’s almost as if they’re provoking an even worse humanitarian crisis. But then Israel provoked the creation of Hamas. Im revolted by the excessive bombing and use of white phosphorus. Who I am to judge Hamas, really? But I judge them anyway. I can’t fathom what’s happening to Palestinians.

It’s absolutely understandable that Jews wanted their own country after the Holocaust. I think if the majority of major religions have countries, it’s important that Jews have one too. I don’t think Israel’s an invalid state but I think it’s run by a terrible man and I don’t like much of what they do. It bothers me when people online call it “isntreal.” Aldo I don’t get why they say Israel didn’t exist until 1949 because that land is referred to in the Bible as Israel? Are Israelis and Jews more indigenous to the land than Palestinians if the Jews were there thousands of years ago? How do people declare who’s the most indigenous? Some people think the Jews are taking their land back? Some people think Hamas is a resistance movement? But justification of terrorism is horrifying. It’s not like there was a vote in Palestine to decide whether to attack Israel. If there were, and the majority voted to hurt Israel, Israel would have more justification. But it’s terrifying that Hamas has decided they represent everyone. So many more Palestinians are dying because Hamas gave israel justification to kill more. Israel’s treatment of Gaza will radicalize more young people into joining organizations like Hamas. It’s a disaster.

Iran’s involvement makes me suspicious. I think they want Israel destroyed and don’t care about Palestinians. Why would they care about Palestinians when they murder or arrest women who don’t “properly” cover their hair? But also, the US helped overthrow Iran’s last democratic leader? But also it’s important for israel to exist to have a democratic ally in the Middle East?

I’m 18 and I’m trying to learn everything I can before making judgments. Did you feel conflicted like this when you were younger? Do you still feel like this? I think social media has made it even more confusing. I can’t tell what’s reliable and what’s not. But also, how would someone allegedly live-tweeting from Gaza prove that they’re reliable? Why should they have to? How do you decide what to trust or not trust?

I’m especially worried about American republicans who appear to be supporting Palestine only because Biden supports Israel. I’m worried that young leftists will begin to trust these republicans because they agree with the republicans on one international issue. So many young people supporting Israel are retweeting a man who’s pinned tweet is about how he had a great time chatting with tucker Carlson. That man supports palestine because he wants to prove that Biden is evil or incompetent etc. How does one trust anyone in government ever? I’m worried Biden will lose the 2024 election because of his support for Israel will cost him the support of democrats. And then we’ll end up with someone astronomically worse.

Thank you.

Also just for anyone reading, I listened to this amazing podcast about the history of Israel/Palestine. It was published in September and august of this year so it isn’t colored by the recent events and subsequent/sudden pity for Israel. I like especially the explanation about how Israelis and Palestinians have different names for the same event. It can be the worst day ever or the best day ever, depending on who you are

https://open.spotify.com/episode/2uaV7mS3cTEKITWp7T3JL2?si=aYXRTgRCTJSBXNaHDyH-qw

Thanks so much for your thoughts anon - sending you all the love as you make sense of the world. It took me a long time to figure out what I thought about Israel and Palestine and at times I felt it was too complicated and found the way people talked about Israel stressful, even when I was on Palestinian solidarity protests.

You don't have to have this all figured out to take action. You think the current actions of the Israeli state are terrible - that's enough to take action in solidarity with Palestinians. I really encourage you to do what you can in this week - you don't need to have untangled and resolved everything to take solidarity action.

In terms of the advice you were asking for - my main point is that it's OK that you feel confused and unclear and give yourself time to figure out almost all of this. You will learn more about Israel and Palestine with time. It's OK to take time to figure out how to have friends with people who you disagree with and who pressure you to agree. You will figure out that with time - and my only advice is to give yourself time. The only urgency right now is to take action in solidarity with Palestine - and you can do that with all the confusion and ambiguous feelings you have.

For the rest - rather than trying to respond to everything you say - I'm going to focus on two specific ideas. There are beliefs that seem to underlie what you say and where I understand things very differently. I am offering these alternative ways of understanding the world as a way of showing how I see things. I don't know if they'll speak to where you're coming from or not, but they seemed like a good place to start.

The first is that I don't think religions having countries is a good thing - it's a cause of horrendous oppression and injustice. There are all sorts of examples from history of this idea (the reformation), but I think one particularly good and recent example is the partition of India and the consequences that flow down through till today.

It's easy, I think, for things to be naturalised or talked about as if they are natural - and so when people say oh X is OK because it's an example of Y - there can be a lot of ignorance about Y, which is actually terrible. I think being clear eyed about what ethnic or religious national states are actually like (and have been like) really helps see through some of the false equivalence that goes on with Israel.

You might have seen an anon come back twice and say 'don't you think Jewish people should have a state' and treat this as if the answer was obviously yes. If you understand what it means to say that only this group of people who live in this land should control the state that rules over it, then it becomes very clear why the answer should be no - and that's not a statement about Jewishness, but about the nature of states.

The second is that I disagree with your understanding of indigeneity in a way that is quite important - and might be useful. As you probably know I've spent most my life in New Zealand and that shapes how I see settler colonisation and resistance to it.

There's a simple rendition of the idea of indigeneity - which is the people who have had the longest connection with a particular piece of land are indigenous and therefore should be able to control what happens to it (or the other side where you look back and see who has the longest connection with land to decide who is right) - really quickly unravels and there's lots of the world where it would lead to supporting terrible things.

The alternative is to see that people become indigenous as a result of the process of dispossession through settler colonialism. Before settler colonies there are no indigenous people - there are just people who live places - just like there have been people who lives places all over the world for as long as there have been people

Settler colonisation is a way of controlling land and resources - and it's different from other sorts of imperialism. In the Americas, and later in New Zealand and Australia resources were taken by new societies that were built where people were already living. This was only possible because huge numbers of people were moved to that land on the basis of a promise that they would have access to land that they wouldn't have otherwise (alongside an ideology that the land they are claiming is their right). Settler colonialism is the process of taking over a society by offering people access to resources, particularly land, to move to the new place (in the Americas obviously there was also the forcible movement of enslaved people in addition to settler colonisation, but it is this movement of free people that characterises settler colonisation). It is the combination of offering inducement to move people, and using those people to maintain power, that makes settler colonisation different from other forms of migration. It's only in the face of settler colonialism that people who are living their lives become indigenous people.

That is the sense in which Palestinians are indigenous to the land of Israel - they were dispossessed from their land and homes by people who lived elsewhere and moved with the assistance of the state and the intention to displace them. It's not about the ancient history of who deserves the land in some kind of mystical way - it's about a very specific (and in this case recent) history of intentional dispossession. I think the way that appeals the bible are used to obscure the very recent history is really well captured by Michael Rosen's poem Promised Land.

The final thing I want to say is to respond to your characterisation of that podcast. Because my response to what you said was to think: 'what a great summary of why it's impossible to support the state of Israel'. I don't think mine or anyone else's freedom or liberation can be built through the oppression of others. One of the most basic building blocks of my politics is the idea of solidarity 'an injury to one is an injury to all'. It's not at all unusual for horrors on one people to be a source of triumph for another - but I believe none of us have a chance unless we can build a different sort of world that is based on solidarity as opposed to fighting over scarcity. If a great joy for one people, is a catastrophe for another - it's a really clear sign that that great joy is not something that I can support politically.

[terresdebrume]

it’s not impulsively sent and it’s not a one sentence view of your “nuanced” opinions considering you, at one point reblogged “this blog is safe for Jews” and then became one of the many who, after October 7th, reblogged what was oftentimes misinformation by people hiding their antisemitism under the guise of anti Zionism—all while completely ignoring what the Jewish community suffered. You don’t “fight violence with violence” by violently murdering children and civilians in an unprovoked attack on a holiday. You don’t “fight violence with violence” by raping and mutilating civilians. And ignoring that suffering while propping another group’s up while *continuing* to justify “maybe violence IS the answer” like you did in that last ask is disgusting

Right. So just for clarification: the original tags on that post were a general comment, not intended to make a judgement on any particular situation going on. I did go there myself in my previous post by mentioning the Palestinian situation which I should at the very least have been more mindful about, and I'm sorry about that. Believe it or not, I genuinely didn't remember the October attacks when I wrote this, which I admit is also not great.

This specific attack was definitely horrible, and to me at least it does very much seem retaliatory as opposed to defensive. It was, in my admittedly extremely external opinion, also generally not helpful. I can only imagine what the families of the victims are feeling right now, and I'm sorry this happened at all. (Edited to clarify: I don't think this particular case is one of justified violence.)

That being said, I also think the way the Israeli government has been talking about Palestine and deploying its forces against it is unacceptable and indefensible. I think the cessation of Palestinian occupation is the correct goal to pursue and also a necessary step in the process of dismantling Hamas and stopping its actions against Israeli (Added for clarity.) civilians. I also think that regardless of anyone's opinion on the creation of Israel, there will be no long term solution that doesn't include Israeli populations, if only because they've been there for generations now* and to inflict upon them the same thing that is being forced on Palestinians would be cruel and absolutely indefensible.

*I know there's always been a Jewish population in the region, this is not an attempt to deny that, I'm just saying that Israel as an official state has only existed for a much shorter time than that.

As for the more personal aspect of this message. I can only apologize for the misinformation I reblogged. I try to be discerning about it, I don't always do great, and as I've shown today I can definitely be thoughtless. I can only try to do better about that, and assure you that none of these instances have stemmed from a deliberate attempt to be hurtful to or bring harm to Jewish communities, though of course that doesn't mean I didn't hurt anyone with them.

Lastly, and at the risk of sounding like I'm doubling down: in a broad sense, I still don't believe Pacifism as a political praxis can or should be applied to all situations. I don't expect everyone to agree with me on that but I would be lying if I said the opposite.