#xue yang meta

[lifeofmysteries]

Xue Yang and the Privilege of Revenge - An Essay

How does Xue Yang’s act of personal revenge compare against the Jianghu’s wider view of revenge? When is violence of this kind deemed acceptable, and who benefits from this? I want to explore the themes within Mo Dao Zu Shi connecting classism and the privileges of revenge as explored through Xue Yang and his relationship with the Jin Clan.

Xue Yang’s major act of revenge is against the Chang Clan, the eradication of the entire family. His revenge is motivated by Chang Ci’an’s act of violence against him as a child. This act of violence involved the destruction of his hand and his childhood innocence, as far as the reader understands from the story he tells about himself.

Xue Yang actually considered this seriously. “Of course,” he replied, as if it was an odd question. “The finger was mine, but those lives belonged to others. No number of lives would’ve been enough. It was only fifty or so people—how could that be enough to pay for my finger?”

As an orphan on the streets, he was a member of society that is considered disposable, where finding justice for any crime would be near impossible when the perpetrator is higher up - worth more - in the eye of society than you. There is no over arcing justice system within the Clans, they police themselves.

In defiance of his low class position, Xue Yang places his life as more valuable than the Chang Clan and uses his act of violence to apply his personal world view on the material world. The initial act of violence taken against Xue Yang was intended to show the opposite; that his life is viewed as lacking to wider society. The fact that Chang Ci’an did not face any explicitly mentioned repercussions for this is proof that the Clans believe that Xue Yang is not someone of any importance to consider worrying about making amends with. Xue Yang’s act of revenge can be constructed as proving to them and the world that he does matter.

This dehumanisation he is treated with is repeated throughout Mo Dao Zu Shi. After working for the Jin, he is beaten and left for dead as his worth was only through his value to the Jin Clan’s research. There is no need to allow him to leave respectfully as the Jins correctly believe he would not be missed nor would anyone fight for Xue Yang’s justice in that situation. He is constantly compared to animals, and even his physical features are described as more animalistic than the other characters to emphasise his position within the narrative.

Instead, he grinned widely, baring his canine teeth in his direction.

Xue Yang reacts to this repeated mistreatment by turning it around. He looks down on the people around him, steals from them, threatens them, and turns them into fierce corpses. He takes any action to make them feel afraid or frustrated rather than superior to him. His revenge against the Chang fits into this model.

In the ‘Villainous Friends’ extra, his response of aggression is contrasted against Jin Guangyao’s response of civility. Jin Guangyao also came from a lower class background and was insulted for it. His response was to conform himself to appeal to their idealised worldview of a high class cultivator through obedience to his father and replication of their mannerisms. Xue Yang’s internal viewpoint contrasts this as he is not intending to change anyone’s mind, rather he asserts his own position that he matters through enacting violence. When the previous actions of Jin Guangyao come to light, his position within the eyes of the Jianghu shifts and they revert to seeing him as that lower class, dehumanised being, right alongside Xue Yang.

“Jin Guangyao later got rid of Xue Yang. What a perfect example of dog biting dog.”

Xue Yang’s continued comparisons with the Jin Clan illustrates the intersections of power and violence with Mo Dao Zu Shi. Xue Yang committed his first act of revenge against the Chang Clan when he was a guest cultivator working for the Jin. As we know, the Jins shielded him from the justice Xiao Xingchen wanted to have enacted because Xue Yang was helping them behind the scenes. There is irony in the fact that the Clan held most responsible for punishing Xue Yang’s act of revenge was the Jin Clan when compared against their own actions against the Wen Clan. The Jin Clan upheld the taking of the Wens clan land and the imprisonment of the remaining family members. The view of the cultivation world at that time was that the whole Clan should be held accountable, regardless of their own actions within the war.

Another guest cultivator stood up. “Of course it’s different. The Wen dogs committed all manner of evil deeds. They deserved to fall in such disgrace. All we’re doing is retaliating in kind, an eye for an eye. Giving them a taste of their own medicine. Where’s the fault in that?”

Revenge is thus seen by the Jianghu as a way of levelling the scales between two people and there is no fault in this. Xue Yang’s act falls in line with this way of thinking, and falls in line even more so with the Jin’s treatment of the Wens.

The morality of the Jianghu shows that revenge against an entire clan is justified, and that each and every family member can and should be held liable. The only ones who aren’t are those who surrendered to the Jin Clan, allying their power with theirs.

“Because the Wen dogs committed so many evil deeds, everyone with the surname of Wen can be killed without exception—do I understand you right? Many renegade clans from Qishan surrendered and joined the alliance, and they’ve since found support with the Jin Clan of Lanling. If I’m not mistaken, I see a few guests at this very banquet who used to be the family heads of clans affiliated with the Wen Clan.”

From this, the act of revenge also acts as a move to gain power, eradicating those who opposed or could future oppose the Jin sect. This Jin act in the same way that they protected Xue Yang, defending only those who benefit their interests. This also proves how shallow the ideologies of the Jianghu are. They will not stick to their prior beliefs if there is some way to benefit, or if the subject of their attention is of a lower class to them. The only ones who succeed and gain happiness in their own right are those that leave the Jianghu entirely, shown through Mianmian, Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji at the end of the novel.

Through the comparisons drawn throughout the novel by Xue Yang’s close proximity to the Jin Clan, ideas of how and who is allowed to take revenge intersect with classism. Violence is used by those who have the privilege of power to defend themselves, and thus this violence becomes justified in the eyes of the people.

(Citations taken from Sevenseas edition of Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation | Mo Dao Zu Shi)

[sorrowschengmei]

okay listen. Lan Yang...

might sound like the less functional thing ever but i imagine he'd be a good Lan if raised by them since little, after his injury.

he's very committed and focused, and definitely not a 'softie': train 10k hours? okay! know by heart all the text? okay!

in canon he's shown excellent physical resistance and commitment [when he WANTS to, ofc]. he's very attuned to moral and philosophical things too as we can see in his canon confrontation with Xingchen. i feel it could be even reassuring for him, following a code that explicitly states that GOOD must defeat EVIL, not RICH must defeat SMALL SECT/NON CULTIVATOR [that's his core emotional wound-INJUSTICE]

he certainly wouldn't be a perfect Lan [he'd totally sneak candy inside CR] but he'd be a committed and honoured cultivator- something Lans appreciate

plus, we have the perfect faceclaim, he just needs the headband...

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

Hello Stranger. Whom I have never met.

 [First] Prev <–-> Next

[veliseraptor]

a quote from the yi city arc in the novel that absolutely kills me every time:

As though someone had just thrown cold water directly in his face or slapped him awake in the middle of a dream, Xue Yang’s complexion turned an exceptionally ugly color at once.

I think it's the "slapped him awake in the middle of a dream" bit. this little ersatz domestic life for all the fucked up at the base of it has been a dream for xue yang, something he's never had before. and now, just with the fact of his name being spoken aloud, even before the final collapse, that's already slipping away.

because the life he's had with xiao xingchen isn't for xue yang; it only exists as long as he isn't himself.

[rejectedfables]

While the source material clearly intends Xue Yang to be read as an orphan (perhaps orphaned so young he has no memory of his parents), I think it’s underexplored in fandom that he never ACTUALLY SAYS that his parents DIED, but rather that he was a child without parents. 

"He had neither dad nor mom nor money" (via the official english translation)

I think there's something in here worth exploring about the possibility that Xue Yang was abandoned by his parents. 

Perhaps he remembers one or both of them and/or the event, perhaps he does not but just has a sense of it having happened, perhaps he has no memories of it at all but it still psychologically impacted his development. 

Just about every character in the story can be better understood by looking at how they were raised, and Xue Yang is CERTAINLY not an exception. 

There are myriad ways to interpret his childhood (though none of them stable, safe, or cared for), but I have been thinking a LOT lately about how being abandoned by his parents could have shaped him into who he later became.

His behavior in the Villainous Friends extra (wherein he, seemingly arbitrarily, breaks things and antagonizes people and then specifically challenges Jin Guangyao about paying for damages) COULD be interpreted as acting out in a way that's common for children and teens with a history of abandonment who are testing the waters of just how much their new guardian/s will tolerate. This sort of behavior can be a self fulfilling prophesy as well as an attempt to prove to themselves that their expectations of rejection or punishment are correct.

If Xue Yang has only ever known the world to be a painful place where people reject and abandon him, then that's how he expects the world to continue behaving. If suddenly someone defies this expectation, it is simultaneously a fascinating and wondrous thing, and also a threat to his worldview. After all, if THIS person can be kind and care for him, then why didn't anyone else?

If JGY, who at this point is essentially just his handler, can be unconditionally patient with him... then why couldn't others have been patient with him over much less? And why couldn't his own parents, who had considerably higher responsibility to him, be as patient as JGY?

It's much easier to push and push and push until you break the patience and prove your cynicism correct, than it is to grapple with those painful questions. And after all, Jin Guangyao had an exterior force (Jin Guangshan) requiring him to show patience. And once that force was removed, so was Xue Yang. This, perhaps, felt as much like validation as it did betrayal.

There might be a parallel to be made here, too, about how JGY was and felt betrayed/abandoned by his father. This in common might be something that they bonded over.

And of course, as always, there's Yi City.

Xue Yang expects Xiao Xingchen to abandon him, and his elaborate “revenge” was at least in part in preparation for that anticipated betrayal. He "knows" he will be betrayed and, perhaps unlike what happened with Jin Guangyao, he intends to be ready for it this time. Ready to punish Xiao Xingchen the MOMENT it happens, or ready to convince him not to betray him after all (what is "We're not so different, I'm not uniquely evil, you're ending our life together because you think you're better than me but look! Look! You and I are the same now" if not a deeply misguided and utterly desperate plea?).

At some point he starts hoping it just won't happen, and stops needing the “revenge” plot. When it starts unraveling before him, he tries for understanding first. What is "Hear my story, THEN decide--" if not begging to be understood?

Of course it doesn't work.

Xiao Xingchen doesn't even kill Xue Yang, either; he goes Away. Goes where Xue Yang can't. If Xue Yang is read as having this particular trigger, Xiao Xingchen's suicide may feel like abandonment all over again.

Perhaps Xiao Xingchen NOT killing Xue Yang becomes a parallel to Xue Yang's parents abandoning him to suffer alone instead of keeping him or killing him. Or else maybe Xue Yang's mother DID try to kill him (drown him or left him out in the cold) and he just managed to survive, in which case Xiao Xingchen NOT trying to kill Xue Yang puts him a cut above even Xue Yang's own mother/parents.

Final thought:

While I find Xue Yang's lack of familial connection to the rest of the cast compelling, I also find "what if" scenarios fascinating to explore, and "Xue Yang was abandoned by parents who might still be around during the story" does create some fascinating opportunities for fic.

Such as:

What if Xue Yang was yet another illegitimate son of Jin Guangshan? What if he knew but Jin Guangyao didn't? What if Jin Guangyao knew but Xue Yang didn't? What if Jin Guangshan himself knew? That would really put the insistent protections into a very weird light (is there a heart in there? Or did he think he could string Xue Yang along like he did Jin Guangyao? Or was Xue Yang blackmailing him?)

OR

What if Xue Yang was the illegitimate son of Chang Cian? It certainly puts a spin on that entire scenario. Little Xue Yang has another reason to want to please this man, and a further reason to feel betrayed by the abuse. Chang Cian not even recognizing him. Xue Yang taking revenge on the entire family because they ALL wronged him in a way he can't articulate. Because they got to live the life he could have if he'd been wanted.

Certainly none of this is canon, but it's not TERRIBLY far beyond the bounds of canon either, and makes for some juicy food for fic.

[lgbtlunaverse]

One underdiscussed aspect of the bone-deep lack of mutual understanding during the nieyao stairs scene is that Nie Mingjue doesn't know - and can't know - what he's actually asking of Jin Guangyao. Not because he doesn't understand how his father treats him, or how tenuous his position is. But because he has no clue Xue Yang is a demonic cultivator.

Remember: Nie Mingjue is still alive, which means the position of chief cultivator doesn't exist yet and Jin Guangshan is facing heavy pushback for suggesting it. Most of that is coming from a fear that the Jin will try to become the next Wen. So having an outer disciple murder an entire clan and then not even punish him properly? This is a collosally bad move politically! You might as well be waving a red flag around yelling "I want to kill other sects with impunity!" There's a reason that years in the future, the moment Jin Guangyao becomes acting sect leader, he will immediately order Xue Yang's death (He doesn't actually die, either by accident or on purpose on jgy's part. But the point is that as far as the public is concerned he had Xue Yang executed.)

From Nie Mingjue's perspective, Jin Guangshan just shot himself in the foot politically for some random outer disciple. It's morally wrong, but it's also incredibly fucking stupid. In his eyes, he is asking Jin Guangyao to do the glaringly obvious right thing, even when exclusively looking at the Jins' self-interest. The thing that surely everyone else in the Jin also wants Jin Guangshan to do! Jin Guangyao can say that he has no influence on his father all he wants, but it is obvious how much work he does and so, as much as his father may not respect him, he clearly at least trusts Jin Guangyao's competence. Nie Mingjue has already tried shouting directly at Jin Guangshan during the trial and it seemed to work, but then Jin Guangshan went back on his decision like a complete idiot. So now Nie Mingjue is asking the guy who is famous for being good at rhetoric and convincing people to convince his donkey of a father to do the obviously correct thing with minimal downsides because again, to Nie Mingjue, this is all about some random outer disciple. It makes sense to ask this! It's a pretty reasonable request! Jin Guangshan can't possibly care that much.

Except of course he does. Because Xue Yang isn't some random outer disciple. He's the only good shot Jin Guangshan has at recreating the yin tiger tally. And Jin Guangshan reaaaaaally wants the yin tiger tally. So bad that he is fully willing to tank an ungodly amount of political goodwill to get it. Jin Guangyao is fully aware that not only will Jin Guangshan never kill Xue Yang, he isn't planning on keeping him locked up either. In fact, after Nie Mingjue is dead, he'll free Xue Yang and strongarm Chang Ping into denying the guilt of his family's murderer. Jin Guangshan cares a lot about keeping Xue Yang in his employ.

And Jin Guangyao knows this. But he can't tell Nie Mingjue that! Because then he'd have to admit they've been doing demonic cultivation. That the fucking ghost geneal is in their basement. That, oopsie, they actually also killed a whole other entire clan just a while ago after framing their sect leader for an assasination attempt and then used their bodies as fodder to make more fierce corpses. You know, in case one mass murder wasn't enough!

So obviously he's not gonna say that. Which means Nie Mingjue has no idea what he's demanding from Jin Guangyao, and therefore no idea why he absolutely can't fullfill that request.

I get why it's not mentioned very often because there are a lot of other problems which are both more obvious and more fun to talk about. (Who doesn't love a little overcomplicated trolley problem?) But I think it adds just another layer to the chasm between them in this scene. They're not just disagreeing, they're having completely different conversations.

[whetstonefires]

Huge fan actually of the fact that Jin Guangyao said right to Xue Yang's face: People like you aren't very scary, because if you turn against me I can freely slaughter you in broad daylight without even needing to make up an excuse. It's people with good reputations and support systems who are actually dangerous.

Like 1) excellent summary of his whole philosophy 2) he told Xue Yang exactly what he was going to do to him.

And I bet this is actually why Xue Yang, king of obsessive petty retribution, doesn't really hold a grudge about the whole getting stabbed and left for dead in a ditch, and never pursues the matter. Jin Guangyao never pretended he was going to do otherwise! He was totally up front about it! No hypocrisy here!

[thatswhatsushesaid]

re: my last reblog about jgy and xy in the villainous friends extra, i do wish there was more attention paid to that line: "you're not afraid [of these people], but i am"

generally speaking i don't subscribe to the school of thought that argues that xue yang somehow has jin guangyao totally figured out, or that we should take everything that jin guangyao says to xue yang as being a 100% accurate reflection of who he 'really' is. (and ftr i don't see this claim trotted out that often, and definitely not recently.) but something i do enjoy about their novel canon dynamic is that there are things that jin guangyao can express to xue yang, bluntly and honestly, that he just can't express to lan xichen, or even su she probably.

but, when pushed to his absolute limit during the empathy flashback chapters, he does express this sentiment to one other person, and that person is nie mingjue.

just, you know. letting that parallel marinate in my brain for a little while.

[mdzs-fanon-exposed]

MDZS Fanon VS Canon: 7/?

Mo Xuanyu and Xue Yang were Jin disciples at the same time

Rating: FANON – SUPPORTED

There's a not insignificant amount of fanworks that depict Xue Yang and Mo Xuanyu interacting during their time as guest disciples of the Lanling Jin sect. While we do not have any concrete evidence that the two characters ever met, it is (mostly) possible to discern whether they were guest disciples at the same time.

The timeline of Mo Dao Zu Shi is often hard to follow because specific years and dates are rarely given in the books, but using context clues, I can piece together a rough estimate of when both characters were present at Golden Carp Tower and use that to identify any points they may have overlapped.

Xue Yang:

Xue Yang's time as a guest disciple is easier to define, so I'll start with him. The earliest time we see him, chronologically, is during the flower-viewing banquet that Lanling Jin held directly following the end of the Sunshot Campaign:

Xue Yang was extremely young at this point in time. Although his face still had a boyish cast to it, he was already very tall. He also wore a Sparks Amidst Snow robe, the very picture of carefree youth as he stood beside Jin Guangyao, like a spring breeze caressing the willow. (Seven Seas Ch. 10, Part 2)

He is already a disciple of the Jin sect, although he hasn't been one for long, according to Nie Mingjue's reaction:

Nie Mingjue frowned. “Xue Yang from Kui Prefecture?” Jin Guangyao nodded. Xue Yang was already infamous at a young age. Wei Wuxian could clearly sense Nie Mingjue’s frown deepening. (Seven Seas Ch. 10, Part 2)

Note that at this point, both Wei Wuxian and Jin Zixuan are alive (and attending the flower-viewing banquet as well). We can assume that this happens approximately 1-2 years before Wei Wuxian's death, due to factors such as time skips and a reference to the Sunshot Campaign from when Xiao Xingchen leaves the mountain, which we know is about a year after the Siege:

At the time, it had only been a few years since the end of the Sunshot Campaign, and the Siege of the Yiling Burial Mounds had just concluded. (Seven Seas Ch. 7)

and

Twelve years ago happened to be the year right after the Siege of the Yiling Burial Mounds, so they had just missed each other. (Seven Seas Ch. 7)

We can also approximate when Xue Yang's time as a disciple ended. He had to have been a guest disciple of the Lanling Jin until between one and two years after Wei Wuxian's death. We know it was at least one year afterwards, because he meets Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan while still associated with the Sect:

Xiao Xingchen smiled, seemingly well aware that it was in Jin Guangyao’s nature to speak in an ingratiating way. “Lianfang-zun speaks too highly of me.” His gaze then turned to Xue Yang. “He may be young, but since he ranks among the guest cultivators, he must still exercise self-discipline and restraint. The Jin Clan of Lanling is distinguished, after all, and should strive to set an example in many aspects.” (Seven Seas Extra 3)

And it must have been up to two years or less because Xue Yang was both imprisoned and exonerated for the crime of the Chang Clan massacre (and therefore no longer a disciple) while Jin Guangshan was still alive:

“I’m not shielding him,” Jin Guangyao defended himself. “The incident with the Chang Clan of Yueyang shocked me greatly as well. How could I have anticipated Xue Yang would slaughter a family of over fifty people? But my father insists on keeping him…” (Seven Seas Ch. 10)

and

Jin Guangshan began thinking of ways to pull Xue Yang out of jail ... until finally, the Jin Clan of Lanling successfully persuaded Chang Ping to change his story. He withdrew all the grievances he had stated before and announced publicly that the clan extermination case had nothing to do with Xue Yang. (Seven Seas Ch. 7)

And we know Jin Guangshan died eleven years before Wei Wuxian was resurrected, from Sisi's story.

“I’ll go first, then!” She casually curtsied to the crowd. “What I’m about to tell you is an incident that happened roughly eleven years ago.” ... And the half-dead man on the bed must have been Jin Guangshan! (Seven Seas Ch. 19)

Therefore, Xue Yang's time as a guest disciple lasted anywhere from two to four years in total, beginning at the end of the Sunshot Campaign and ending approximately a year (give or take) before Jin Guangshan dies.

Mo Xuanyu:

Mo Xuanyu's timeline is harder to define, because we never actually see him while he's a disciple, and have to rely on rumors and circumstantial evidence. The only reliable information we have, date-wise, is that he was fourteen when he was called to Golden Carp Tower by his father:

And sure enough, when Mo Xuanyu turned fourteen, that clan leader sent over a grand party to officially take him back. (Seven Seas Ch. 2)

Although knowing he's fourteen isn't particularly helpful, we do know that Jin Guangshan was still alive at the time. As for the exact time frame in which Mo Xuanyu could have been accepted as a disciple, Jin Guangyao says this:

“Did you think that I would rise in position with Jin Zixuan’s death? Jin Guangshan would rather bring back another illegitimate son than have me succeed him!” (Seven Seas Ch. 10)

This implies that Mo Xuanyu was accepted into Lanling Jin after Jin Zixuan's death so that Jin Guangyao would be further down the line of succession. This sentence is said when Nie Mingjue confronts Jin Guangyao about sheltering Xue Yang from the consequences of the Chang Clan massacre. Therefore, Mo Xuanyu could have (theoretically) entered the Jin sect at any point between Jin Zixuan's death and Nie Mingjue's confrontation, the latter of which took place after Xue Yang's imprisonment.

However, I believe it is more likely that Mo Xuanyu was brought in during the aftermath of Jin Zixuan's death, for the sheer reason that it would shunt Jin Guangyao out of the line of succession quicker.

We do know that Mo Xuanyu was present at Golden Carp Tower after Wei Wuxian's death, because Jin Guangyao gave him access to Wei Wuxian's manuscripts on possession:

He had written plenty of these manuscripts back then, all penned on a whim and tossed aside just as easily, scattered all around the cave where he slept in the Yiling Burial Mounds. ... He’d wondered where Mo Xuanyu had learned such forbidden magic. Now he knew. Never in a million years would Jin Guangyao have allowed unimportant people to glimpse the remains of a manuscript on forbidden magic. (Seven Seas Ch. 10)

And although we don't know exactly when Mo Xuanyu was kicked out of Golden Carp Tower, we can infer that it happened before Jin Guangshan's murder. During the events in the Sword Hall of Lotus Pier, after Sisi and Bicao's testimonies, one unnamed cultivator says this:

"He spent the last few years before Jin Guangshan’s death busily clearing the land of his father’s illegitimate sons, for fear that someone would suddenly pop out of nowhere and challenge him for the position. Mo Xuanyu was probably one of the lucky ones. Had he not gone crazy and been booted back home, he would likely have ended up disappearing like the others." (Seven Seas Ch. 19)

This implies that Mo Xuanyu's expulsion from the sect happened at some point before Jin Guangshan's murder. Theoretically, this was done because he would be a potential threat to Jin Guangyao's legitimacy (and have gotten killed) otherwise. As Mo Xuanyu was not legitimized, though, it's unlikely that he would have posed a genuine threat to Jin Guangyao's succession. Regardless of the reasoning, the quote here indicates that Mo Xuanyu was kicked out before Jin Guangshan's death.

To be clear, however, this cannot exactly be taken as reliable evidence. As Wei Wuxian says about this exchange,

If they’re just rumors, why so quick to believe them? If they’re secrets, how would you even know of them? This was not the first time these rumors had spread. While Jin Guangyao was in power, they had been suppressed so well that no one took them seriously. But tonight, the rumors all seemed to have become hard facts with irrefutable evidence. They became a solid foundation for Jin Guangyao’s multitude of crimes, proving just how unscrupulous he was. (Seven Seas Ch. 19)

So while it's possible that the timeline here is correct, we know that (as established earlier in the books – see Chapter 1) rumors in the world of Mo Dao Zu Shi are unreliable at best and often contradictory. For the purposes of this post, though, I am choosing to assume that this is at least partially true.

So taking the assumptions I've made into account, we know that Mo Xuanyu's time as a Jin disciple could have lasted up to approximately three years, anywhere between directly following Jin Zixuan's death to just before Jin Guangshan's death.

The timeline:

Now that I have a rough estimate of when both characters were present at Golden Carp Tower, I can try to find places where they overlap. Unfortunately, even with all this sleuthing, I cannot say for sure if they were present at the same time. The chance that they just barely missed each other, though, is unlikely.

Given the most generous interpretation of their respective timelines, Xue Yang and Mo Xuanyu could have been Jin disciples together for almost three years at maximum. This assumes:

Mo Xuanyu was accepted into the Jin sect almost immediately following Jin Zixuan's death.

Both Xue Yang and Mo Xuanyu's expulsions happened soon after one another, within the same year as Jin Guangshan's death.

This means Mo Xuanyu would have been a disciple since before Wei Wuxian died, and that Xue Yang's imprisonment and exoneration happened on a very tight timeline right before Jin Guangshan's death. This is the interpretation that gives both characters as much time to interact as possible.

Given the least generous interpretation, however, Xue Yang and Mo Xuanyu just missed each other. This assumes:

The massacre of the Chang Clan happened very soon after Xiao Xingchen descended from the mountain.

Mo Xuanyu's acceptance into the sect happened just before Nie Mingjue confronted Jin Guangyao.

This means that Mo Xuanyu's call to join the sect would have happened in between Xiao Xingchen apprehending Xue Yang and Nie Mingjue confronting Jin Guangyao about it, which is presumably a very short amount of time. This is also the least likely interpretation, as it wouldn't make much sense for Mo Xuanyu to have been accepted so late and during such a controversial period for the sect.

The most likely interpretation is somewhere in the middle: that Mo Xuanyu and Xue Yang were, in fact, Lanling Jin disciples at the same time, but that they did not have much overlap. I believe it is probable that Mo Xuanyu would have been accepted into the sect within a year or so of Jin Zixuan's death, and that the Chang Clan massacre happened at least half a year after Xiao Xingchen descended, meaning the two would have had around a year of overlap between them.

In conclusion, I can say with relative confidence that Xue Yang and Mo Xuanyu would have been Jin disciples at the same time. However, I cannot confirm this as canon, as there is not enough evidence available in the books. Therefore, this must be rated as SUPPORTED FANON: the text does not directly state this is true, but it is a distinct and likely possibility.

[aphel1on]

not sure how to phrase this but something i have been ruminating on recently is that xue yang is strangely fragile. obviously he is also incredibly resilient. he survived, and continues to survive, impossible things. he has a million barriers between himself and the world, but none of this actually matters when it comes to what he feels. everything is personal to him. everything pierces straight through all that armor and goes right to his battered heart, the heart that no one else believes he has. that even he is not fully cognizant of. the world strikes and strikes and strikes and so he strikes and strikes and strikes back, even (especially) when the wound is something other people would not think worthy of retribution.

xue yang would never realize this- would be outraged at the concept of it- but the way everything, everything is something to rally a defense against is in itself a form of fragility. he does not know how to let go of things, or let them pass him by. passivity is death. so he is ruthlessly cruel and violent. he projects himself as a lunatic untouchable by anything you might possibly do to him, and on some level he even believes this. but in actuality he is one raw emotional wound. he never learned to separate himself from his emotions, much less process them. the volatility is not so much insanity as it is the constant lashing out of an animal in a trap, and the trap is the world, and the trap is himself, and he is never going to get out. and like so much else, this pain is just part of the background radiation of his life. it hardly registers. to be able to register the hurt, you would have to be able to register a time in which you were not hurt.

i feel like it is a fragility that could blossom into such tenderness, given exactly the right set of circumstances. how at the very first touch of softness in his life he fell into a domesticity from which he never recovered. how much was there, still, to be salvaged from the cruelty. on some level i am always thinking about the little apple bunnies. about the meal for daozhang and the straw in a-qing's bed.

it was too little, too late. it shattered like glass when the world intruded back in. but the tenderness was there. no one, least of all xue yang, knows what might have happened had it been unearthed in him any sooner.

[sorrowschengmei]

things i HATE that fandom gets wrong about Xue Yang

Xue Yang: 'you're the FOUNDER, i'm not as good as you, i need your help, my friend is a better actor than me, i'm just a tiny cultivator, i'm just a delinquent' 

Fanon: yeah his self esteem is ENORMOUS. he thinks he's THE BEST. he's BOASTFUL. literally a HS jock

Xue Yang: depressed and injured lasts HOURS in a fight with THE HANGUANG JUN, teaches himself cultivation, develops spiritual tools, observant and quick witted

Fanon: hahaha he's the dumb one right? everyone can trick him and he can't study bc he only thinks of murder and candy

Xue Yang: drops his entire lifestyle to live with bf, forgets he has the most powerful spiritual tool in hands, just LEAVES when he's tired of working for Wen Sect

Fanon: he's a calculating mastermind. every step he takes is premetidated. he orchestrates year-long plans of revnge

Xue Yang: flirts with every male aristocrat he knows, leaves and joins sects like he changes clothes, 'i have no intent of dominating others'

Fanon: he's SO worried about his reputation and saving face, bc he wants to dominate the cultivation world and be evil! mwahahaha!  

Xue Yang: kill count consists in abuser+family, sect of dude who wanted to kill him, ableist peasants, contract kills, more than once avoids killing other disabled people

Fanon: his pastime is KILLING! he kills for FUN! he wakes up and thinks >:) murder!!  

  Xue Yang: always laughing, trying to be social, making jokes, playing pranks even with his enemies, chatty, loud, optimistic to delusional levels

Fanon: he likes to be ALONE. he's BROODY. he's DARK. his tough life made him reclusive and bitter. he's scared of social interaction.

[regrator-the-ninth]

On Xue Yang and Delayed Gratification

There was an experiment about children and marshmallows and delayed gratification, where children who were able to hold off on eating a marshmallow in order to get a second one if they waited long enough had supposedly more successful lives as adults.

It's since been debunked. The obvious reason for the results was that children who grew up in more food secure, financially stable environments were able to trust the researchers and resist their hunger better than children who grew up not knowing what/when their next meal was.

When I think about Xue Yang, I often find myself recalling this experiment and the explanation of its results. Xue Yang is a classic case of being impatient, unable to delay his gratification. He's impulsive, greedy, and doesn't really think about the long term consequences of his actions. He attacks people the moment they wrong him, he steals even when he doesn't strictly need to, he does things that make his own life more difficult in the future just because he wants them in the present.

But when it comes to Xiao Xingchen, he's suddenly capable of waiting. He holds off on his "revenge." Instead of killing or poisoning his enemy the moment he has an opportunity, he fixes Xiao Xingchen's roof, helps him buy groceries, and treats him as a friend. He puts aside his hatred of the guy just to do nice things for him that he's never done for anyone else. He holds onto the candy he's been given, knowing that there will be more to come (yes, he was doing this even before Xiao Xingchen's death! if he ate it immediately he wouldn't have had any to save, would he?). He is able to exercise restraint and seek delayed gratification because for once in his life, he has the stability and trust in the people around him to just let things happen and follow through to their natural, positive consequences.

I think there's something beautiful and tragic about that.

[rejectedfables]

whenever I see someone claim that Xue Yang never cared about Xiao Xingchen, I'm stuck wondering what they think the candy was about

like.

What do you think it's supposed to mean that Xue Yang's tragic backstory centers around chasing after the instant gratification and temporary enjoyment of sweets at the expense of his own safety. That he was denied the thing he wanted more than anything (sweets), and instead brutally injured for daring to demand what he'd been promised and had rightfully earned (sweets). That Xiao Xingchen's kindness towards Xue Yang is shown in the form of healing Xue Yang's injuries and giving him candy. That after Xiao Xingchen's death, Xue Yang holds that last piece of candy Xiao Xingchen gave him alongside Xiao Xingchen's sword and soul, and never eats it. Denies HIMSELF. For almost a DECADE. Lets it rot just to keep it, just to keep the last gift Xiao Xingchen gave to him. That holding that piece of candy, that evidence of what he'd lost, mattered more to him than eating sweets. That he died holding it.

Anyway I'll never recover

[evilhasnever]

I often see the Yi City trio compared to the Venerated Triad, but I personally don’t see a similarity that goes much deeper than “3 guys who all end up dead or worse”. 

Proposal: a much more interesting comparison, to me, is between the Yi City trio and xiyao + Nie Huaisang.

Here we have an honorable, utterly innocent cultivator (LXC&XXC) tricked into killing his closest confidant / soulmate (Song Lan&JGY) because of the selfish agenda of someone they trusted (Xue Yang&NHS).

And once this man realizes what he’s done, he wishes to be dead, too. 

(Granted, Song Lan had never done anything wrong and JGY had committed a few oopsies, but their role in the other man’s life is the same. Furthermore: the world would have been a little bit better if their dreams had come to fruition. A sect where all are welcome, not tied by blood to any clan! Watchtowers to help the common people in the furthest areas where cultivators hardly go! They may have been extremely different people, but they both worked to help the common man.)

[withthewindinherfootsteps]

Parallels in the Yi City arc: Yi City Quartet & 3Zun

(Long post ahead!)

I think one overlooked detail about the Yi City arc is how closely its characters parallel the story of 3Zun – with Xiao Xingchen as Lan Xichen, Xue Yang as Jin Guangyao, and Song Lan and A-Qing as aspects of Nie Mingjue! Though we can't know if its intentional, the sheer number of similarities does suggest to me that it shouldn't be overlooked – so, let's investigate.

Both Xiao Xingchen and Lan Xichen play the role of the 'betrayed' — significantly, because of some sort of blindness.

While for Xiao Xingchen this is physical, Lan Xichen is also blind to Jin Guangyao's true nature. This blindness has been shaped by their betrayer: Xue Yan blinded Song Lan, leading to Xiao Xingchen sacrificing his own eyes for him, while Jin Guangyao deliberately acts to make himself appear honourable and innocent to the people he encounters. This means Lan Xichen cannot 'see' anything contradictory to this about him. This theme of blindness becomes important to the thematic implications of this arc, which we'll talk about later.

In both cases, the 'betrayer' has some role in shaping this blindness, and uses it to their advantage.

Xue Yang blinded Song Lan, causing Xiao Xingchen to give up his eyes for him. Jin Guangyao's crafted persona is the reason Lan Xichen doesn't suspect anything about him. Xue Yang uses Xiao Xingchen's blindness to conceal his identity/nature and thus get close to an unsuspecting him; Jin Guangyao is likewise able to be unsuspected, while using Lan Xichen's generosity to murder Nie Mingjue and gaining a strong ally/defender. Regardless of intent towards Lan Xichen himself, this is still true.

This leads to an identity reveal and betrayal, in which the former party is blindsided (...pun not intended, I couldn't find a better word).

Xiao Xingchen is shocked that Xue Yang is Xue Yang when A-Qing tells him; Lan Xichen likewise does not want to believe Jin Guangyao isn't the person he thought he knew (though, he does promise to evaluate his beliefs!), and when Jin Guangyao ends up sealing his spiritual powers and betraying him, he doesn't see it coming.

Additionally, Lan Xichen and Xiao Xingchen are both tricked into stabbing a member of their group, as a part of someone else's revenge.

For Lan Xichen, it's an outside party (Nie Huaisang); for Xiao Xingchen, it's another member of this group (Xue Yang). Nie Huaisang wanted to take revenge on Jin Guangyao, and Xue Yang wanted to take revenge on Xiao Xingchen himself.

Also, Lan Xichen was tricked by his Xue Yang counterpart into being an instrument for a group member's murder, which could also parallel these events on Xiao Xingchen's side!

So, why is this important?

A common theme in MDZS is being critical of information/rumours. Don't accept something at first glance – question the validity, the evidence, the reason it's being brought up. We see this in the way Lan Wangji acts (eg when discussingg the case of the Chang clan) and in how he teaches the Juniors; we see this in how Wei Wuxian questions the words and intentions of Sisi and Bicao, even when having people suspect Jin Guangyao would be beneficial to him; we see this in the very premise of the novel, as something we were led to believe was true at first glance (by the title and prologue) is proven to be entirely false.

And, in Lan Xichen and Xiao Xingchen's case, we see the dangers of the opposite. That's not blaming them – Jin Guangyao is a very good manipulator and I’d argue Lan Xichen handled the situation very well when it was raised, and Xiao Xingchen was physically blind and couldn’t have guessed the body on the roadside would be Xue Yang of all people – but factually, both characters believed something without having seen the full picture, and were stabbed in the back for it. Lan Xichen could have considered Nie Minjue's words to provide another perspective, and Xiao Xingchen could have inquired into this mysterious person's background and questioned whether they were exploitative (even if it may have been unreasonable, and wouldn't have changed much since Xue Yang is a very good liar), yet both didn't. They both do accept or try to accept what we know is the truth when it's raised to them, but unfortunately it's too late and both pay a steep price. It's also worth noting that both are considered righteous figures (you can debate about Lan Xichen, but that's his in-universe perception), and neither had malicious intent towards any group member. But it doesn't matter how good your intentions are, or how good of a person you are – if you believe things unquestioningly, it'll still lead to harm. Both to you, and unintentionally by you, too. After all, this unquestioning acceptance of one-sided hearsay is a major driver of the mob mentality so heavily critiqued in the book.

And yes, this could've worked had their stories not so closely paralleled each others' – but I'd argue Xiao Xingchen's physical blindness serves to lampshade the metaphorical blindness of Lan Xichen, accentuating this theme. And also having two similar stories helps draw attention to what both of them are saying much more easily than if the stories had been very different.

At the end, however, Lan Xichen is left alive and able to reflect on what led him to this scenario – unlike his spiritual predecessor. Perhaps this is a glimmer of hope, a sign that there is more room for the questioning of rumours and for critical thinking skills in the world now, especially as the younger generation who embodies this begins to grow up; or perhaps it's just another detail of just how doomed Xiao Xingchen was, because despite embodying this theme, was there anything to reflect on and do differently, that would've changed the outcome of his story? As we said before, Xue Yang is a very good liar, and there really wasn't a reason to constantly suspect him from the information Xiao Xingchen had and (more importantly) could feasibly gather. Regardless, the difference in where they end up is important when analysing similarities, and I'm inclined to believe it is a small sign the world can change for the better.

(Similarities on other members under the cut – because there are a lot for everyone else, too, and this post isn't just about the two mentioned above. Once more, we'll be analysing both the 'what' and the 'why'.)

Xue Yang and Jin Guangyao play the role of the 'betrayer' or 'villain', hiding the fact that they're causing and wanting to cause harm – successfully from one member, unsuccessfully from the other(s).

The 'What'

Both kill the suspecting, the main difference being who they're targeting with this action (for Xue Yang, this taints Xiao Xingchen further, whereas Jin Guangyao was simply targeting Nie Mingjue and not Lan Xichen at all). Additionally, both are from a lower-class*, non-cultivator background, who were taken in by the Jin sect and rose to power through this and through doing… morally dubious things. Both share revenge as a motivator – specifically, revenge against an older, male Sect Leader who used them, rejected them and physically harmed them in some way too (Chang Ci'An due to Xue Yang being a street child; Jin Guangshan due to Jin Guangyao being the ‘son of a prostitute’). However, they have both accomplished this revenge goal at the time of their main story. They also have worked together and helped each other in their actions in the past (Villainous Friends extra). Also, both end up losing a hand to Lan Wangji, coincidentally enough.

The 'Why'

Though classism is a present theme in both their stories, I wouldn’t say this is what the parallels are drawing attention to — it’s drawn attention to much more when dealing with Jin Guangyao, and the idea that being treated badly isn’t an excuse for your actions is more prevalent in contrast (with characters like WWX and A-Qing) than similarities. Thematically, they instead serve to show just how easily information can be twisted and distributed – and again, why it's so important we don't accept everything at first glance. Outside of themes, their parallels do contrast them slightly, too — after all, Jin Guangyao’s treatment of Lan Xichen** is much more positive than Xue Xang’s of Xiao Xingchen, despite the ‘betrayed’ treating both of the similarly. But, one could argue, how much does this actually matter? Considering the eventual harm brought to this figure by them regardless, and everything else each of them did? Whatever the answer, the questions are raised by these similarities between them.

Finally, Nie Mingjue is paralleled by both Song Lan and A-Qing in different ways, though the Song Lan parallels are more prominent.

The 'What': Song Lan

All three were killed by the ‘betrayer’ — however, both Nie Mingjue’s and Song Lan’s murders occured before the betrayal, and their deaths and post-mortem identity reveals play an important role in it. A-Qing witnessing Song Lan’s death (as well as just discovering Xue Yang’s identity from Song Lan) is what makes her tell Xiao Xingchen who Xue Yang is, catalysing that betrayal, and Xiao Xingchen discovering Song Lan’s identity makes the betrayal have… let’s say even more of an impact :’). Meanwhile, the identity reveal of the mysterious corpse triggers the investigation of Jin Guangyao, and also starts to catalyse his downfall, leading to the events of the Guanyin temple. Additionally, both turn into fierce corpses encountered by the cast of the main story (both fighting Wen Ning and starting more antagonistic than they end up), with these corpses having been modified in some way by the ‘betrayer’: Nie Mingjue’s corpse is cut up, and Song Lan’s has the needles inserted and is under Xue Yang’s control. I wouldn’t especially say there are themes or questions raised here, it’s more similarities in the group dynamic, but it’s still very interesting to see.

There isn't as much to say here on the 'why' side of things, though there may be something I'm missing. The role of these characters here is mainly in service of the themes in the other characters' arcs – but it's still useful to analyse just how many factual similarities there are, again to give us hints as to whether these parallels between the groups were intentional or not.

The 'What': A-Qing

A-Qing and Nie Mingjue have less parallels, but they definitely exist. Their role here is their constant suspicion — they both suspect and keep suspecting the ‘betrayer’’s actions, despite the trust of the ‘betrayed’ in them (though Nie Mingjue is certainly more violent in this regard). Additionally, both play an important role in the death of the ‘betrayer’ as undead beings: the ghost of A-Qing by constantly tapping her bamboo pole to reveal Xue Yang’s position, and Nie Mingjue’s fierce corpse by directly killing Jin Guangyao. Both are souls through which Wei Wuxian experiences the events of their stories, and both also end the story in some sort of container — Nie Mingjue in the coffin and A-Qing’s broken soul in a spirit-trapping pouch — but admittedly that’s much more flimsy than the rest of my points.

The 'Why': A-Qing

Though at first glance it seems like this suspicion didn't do anything positive for the characters – both ended up dead at the hands of the one spreading/taking advantage of misinformation – it's important to note that these characters are the characters the truth is revealed through. Though I'd argue Nie Mingjue was probably blinded by his own assumptions as much as Lan Xichen was blinded by his own, even if it did end up lining up more closely with the truth, he still plays the same role as A-Qing in questioning and suspecting somebody despite it appearing – on the surface – that there's nothing wrong. And I don't think it's coincidence that in both these cases, the truth is revealed through somebody who did play this role.

Final Thoughts

Though it is possible these parallels were still coincidences, there really are a lot of similarities between the groups' storylines – and they do serve the purpose of important themes within the book. Therefore, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume they were intentional on some level! And even if I'm reading too far into things and they weren't? It doesn't mean they hold no value.

Finally, these parallels are really interesting on their own, but it’s also really interesting to compare where each group ended up. Both groups ended up destroyed due to murder done by the ‘betrayer’, with only one person left standing. However, while Xue Yang was the survivor of the Yi city group (and was later killed by LWJ), the survivor of the Venerated Triad was Lan Xichen — someone who, as mentioned, though heavily affected, now has the chance to grow as a person and fully take things with all their context because of it. So despite the prevalence in the Jianghu of the attitude MXTX is critiquing, despite Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji and Mianmian only really being able to find peace by stepping away rather than changing it, despite the tragedy of the stories of both the Yi City quartet and of 3zun... ultimately, these parallels could indicate hope.

—

*Although there is a big difference in how much lower this class is, of course.

**There is also the aspect of Xue Yang having a negative past with Xiao Xingchen before, with the opposite being true for Jin Guangyao and Lan Xichen. Jin Guangyao is known to have a good memory and hold grudges — so, if the pairs’ roles were reversed, would anything fundamentally change?

[whetstonefires]

I think a part of the reason I feel so connected to JGY and XY is that I, too, think everyone is lying about what a good person they are. Sure, there may be a few genuinely good people, but those are in the minority and never claim the title.

I don't know about never; some people are pretty straightforward.

And in some ways the whole point of the concept of 'a good person' is that the feeling of losing the right to consider yourself one can impose instinctive recoil from doing wrong, in situations where you don't have the leisure of working your way through an ethics diagram and choosing the logically moral path before reacting to a situation. It has practical utility.

But that system can backfire pretty horribly too, in a lot of ways. It can be hijacked by definitions of 'good' that actually make you recoil from ethical acts because they're deviant. It can lead to disappearing up your own ass lmao.

And definitely the threshold for 'talking about how you're a good person' enough that it makes you suspect as either a) a liar or b) someone who values that self-image over objective reality and other people's wellbeing is. Not very high.

Jin Guangyao, ironically, is one of those people who's so performatively A Good Person in his public life that in retrospect it looks like a red flag. Which knowing this about himself in an ongoing fashion ofc just reinforces his own cynicism about everyone else lmao.

Even Lan Xichen, who I think he may see as a genuinely good person, he also sees as an easy mark who will reliably choose what is comfortable over what is 'right,' if you just structure the scenario to make that an easy choice that's easy for him to justify.

Xue Yang's bitterness is in many ways more exciting than Jin Guangyao's because he has a way more unusual relationship to reality, but it does share a lot of notes.

The role of deception in his psychology fascinates me because as far as I can tell he's as instinctively straightforward a person as Lan Wangji, albeit along quite different lines involving a total lack of impulse control, but has adopted 'deceit' as a weapon against the wicked world in the same way he has adopted 'murder.'

But when he feels someone is not merely lying but papering over bad behavior with principles they are not living up to he is livid.

People claiming to be better than him because they're 'good' when 'good' is a construct of privilege, is the underlying idea he's not equipped to articulate. Except he takes that and applies it to 'hitting me to interrupt my random murder of some guy who happened to be within arm's reach when I wanted to hurt someone.'

Which isn't like philosophically perfect, but the underlying problem he's actually reacting to is that he understands the social contract as a lie that has never protected him but seeks to control him, while protecting rich men it has no power to control.

Which it is fair to be mad about, but then his feeling is that since that's the nature of the world and all people, he is entitled to amass for himself the power to inflict hurt without consequences as much as he possibly can, and to use it against the vulnerable for fun, and no one is entitled to interfere.

Which brings him to a place where he is violently angry at anyone talking about trying to treat other people well as a value, because either they're a hypocrite and a liar or they threaten his entire system of rationalization for why he can be The Worst and still In The Right.

'Everyone is equally bad, actually' is like, an understandable take for anyone who's had cause to become embittered. Everyone is free to make whatever philosophical peace they can with the world and by and large there's no ethical weight to any such opinion, in itself.

But it's an ideological crutch people tend to wind up leaning on very heavily when they can't or don't want to take responsibility for their own behavior.

Which is an approach that Xue Yang, Jin Guangyao, and Su She all share, and which not only is shitty of them, it...traps them in a wheel of doubling down on their own worst impulses because rather than going 'that was bad and I shouldn't do it again' they've repeatedly invested all this energy into making what they did actually the correct thing, according to their interpretation of the context. Which means they're more likely to do it again.

(I think this is how Jin Guangyao became a serial killer, for example. He followed a doing-a-murder-impulse and then internally doubled down on how he had nothing to be ashamed of, so he was more likely to do it again, every time.

Wei Wuxian's strain of self-righteousness about his revenge was less...thorough than Jin Guangyao's, because he had the benefit of going after people on the opposite side of a war from him while Meng Yao's first known murder plot was against a shitty boss. But it probably didn't help him not try to solve army-shaped problems with mass murder, even after that stopped being allowed.)

If any of them had just like, zero moral sensibilities they would have created very different problems, and very possibly fewer of them. It's making a central goal of your operations 'self-vindication in your own internal narrative, created retroactively via reframing' rather than 'figuring out what I think I should do and trying to do that' that traps them in the self-reinforcing murder pissbaby vortex.

So if you look at it one way, these three villains are themselves perfect examples of how pursuit of the 'feeling of being good' (or at least 'not the bad guy') can make you worse.

Notably Wei Wuxian was also extremely sensitive to hypocrisy in his youth; it was the only part of Madam Yu's behavior he was ever shown objecting to. But he's sufficiently mellow and cynical from regret and burnout by the 'present' timespan after his resurrection to just get disgusted and alienated about it, rather than outraged.

He wasn't even all that mad at Xue Yang, though honestly that may be partly because he stopped entirely characterizing him as a person at some point during their interaction. Like, there's no point being angry at someone whose moral sensibilities operate exclusively on the plane of 'is this unfair to me' for manipulating and destroying people who were good to him, and then getting obsessed with his own self-pity about it. This is not a person who understands how not to be, metaphorically speaking, a cannibal.

And Wei Wuxian did know better and still got roughly the same result, so what business does he have getting angry?

Anyway yeah those two villains are both delightfully relatable if you sit down and put their perspectives together; they are clearly operating with the same basic suite of human needs and emotions as everybody else, without that being in itself particularly exculpatory, which is honestly refreshing. They've just got the most fantastically toxic interpersonal habits that knowing them counts as some level of Suffering A Curse.

Jin Guangyao and Xue Yang do both stand as scathing rebukes of the society that created them. But within the narrative, wherein they're people, the fact is that each of them had agency and one of the things they chose to do with it was develop rationales for why they were the most special little guy and everything was someone else's fault.

And their moral nihilisms, while also grounded in serious trauma, ping me as emotional masturbation of this variety.