tzigone

[tzigone]

Rose, Eddie, Zachary and more - you have a preferred characterization?

I don't know a lot about these three, but am somewhat interested.

But I'm unwilling to read the Teen Titans issues with the old YJ characters, because I hate the changes made in their characterizations, so I have consequently not read much of these folks. But I have seen a bit of each of them in the latter 2000s.

Anway, I want to do a teen team with these three. Likely candidates to also be on the team are Natasha Irons and M'gann M'orzz. And I'd have to decide which versions/characterizations to use for them, as well. Less likely candidates are Mia Dearden and Stephanie Brown.

Eddie I know mostly from his Blue Devil days. I liked that comic. Of course, he's totally different when he's gotten older. Part of that is retcons, of course, and part just time and different writers. Now, for my headcanon reboot I'm not going to do those retcons - so his parents didn't abandon him and Dan didn't make a deal Neron for something Dan never wanted in the first place. But I did read the story where Eddie was so desperate to have the superhero life that he wanted that he (a very bright fellow) acted like a total moron and made a deal with Neron, despite Zachary telling him it was a bad idea. Do you like that? Do you think it essential to his character? If he does make that deal, what is the "bet" if we don't have Dan having made such a deal? And what's the end result. I'm a sucker for a happy ending, so Eddie definitely keeps his soul and doesn't get killed before he can legally drink. But should he get to keep all his powers, too? Does he still want all the same things 10 years after he made the deal? Will he ever have a job so that he can pay his bills - what sort? He was very skilled in engineering as a kid, but that was just a way to get to be a superhero for him.

Rose, Rose, Rose. I've seen only snippets with her, and her characterization and wants were all over the map - serve Deathstroke or be an ordinary kid or whatnot. I've heard she got a consistent characterization in the Deathstroke series, but I don't like Deathstroke and don't want to read his series (I've heard it's good, but it doesn't sound like my type of comic). Seen tiny bits of her relationship dynamics with Eddie and references to Dick training her. I know her backstory is different after the reboot. What background, motivation, and characterization would you give her? One of the versions we saw in the comics, a mixture of versions, something all new? What character-development path does she take? Again, will she finish high school or ever hold a job? Money has to come from somewhere.

I do feel like I have a grasp on what I want Zachary to be when I start the story, what he wants, etc. But I have less a sense of what changes and growth I want him to go through during in his life. Professionally, he's easy to peg a successful magician making major money like his cousin and uncle before him. But I really have no idea on his relationship dynamics with anyone but Eddie and his family members.

[tzigone]

John Henry Irons (headcanon reboot)

I've only read a little of him in other people's comics, but I know I want to keep him and Kon, but I'm not doing the same storyline while Superman is dead (while I am repeating a couple storylines, I feel like you need some new ones if you're going to tell a a new story, and that ones that depend on mysteries aren't going to work as well when we already know who the bad guys are and what they're up to).

Anyway, I've read his entry on the dc fandom site, and I'm starting his 90s series. But from the wiki, it's just too much, too depressing. I'm okay with some bad things happening in comics, but this is overboard for me (obviously, of course, I'm reading several years of published bad events all in one summary, so that makes it seem worse). I like comics because I like to see good triumph over evil and feel happy at the end of stories. I'd like to streamline and pare down tragic events and pick the ones with best storytelling potential.

I'm very much not a fan of evil siblings, but unfortunately, they are comic book staple. I may just have his brother be dead when we start and leave him that way. Not sure. I've ditched at least two other evil siblings (one I don't think anyone will care about and one I think they will). But since this is only in my head and I'm not actually writing anything, it doesn't really matter if it please anyone but me. But from characters I don't really know or at least don't know well, I like to get opinions from their actual fans.

So, folks - do you have a preferred city for Steel? Preferred supporting cast? Villains or backstories - I know he's got a different backstory in Prime Earth. I knew he dated Lana, but only recently found out they were married - not conceptually a fan of her marrying a Superman spinoff (makes him feel kinda stand-in/replacement from a meta perspective, and I strongly prefer purpose-build supporting casts), but haven't actually read anything with them together, so they could be great for all I know.

I don't have a JSA in my universe, so am thinking of putting Nat on a teen team with Zat, Kid Devil, and Ravager.

[tzigone]

I kinda go the other way (him happy being a director in LA), but I can totally see your version. I like Verner (from the Blue Devil comics) giving him and Wade their shot/entry, just like he did Marla when she was a teenager.

In my mind Preston Lindsay got into college for film on a scholarship and became a director… He might not be a super well known director yet, but it’s definitely enough to have an apartment and maybe a little dog… he is trying to tolerate city life for now ‘cause it’s where his job needs him, but he has grown a little tired of it (it was alluring at first, the lights and the people, but in some ways he feels oh so home sick)…. He hopes to one day make enough to be able to have a house somewhere closer to his old home. And hopes that he can get back in touch with more of his old friends.

[tzigone]

Young Blades thoughts

So, the last couple days I re-watched a few episodes of the 2005 Young Blades (with d'Artagnan's son and his own three musketeer buddies). 

So, we know Duval believes Mazarin is responsible for his injury 14 years ago (though he can't prove it), so I wonder what he had against Duval in particular then. Sure, he's trying to use magic to take over Europe and maybe become immortal, but what possible threat could a young Duval have been then? Ignoring the last episode (where the characters met Alexandre Dumas), what do you believe would be the best resolution - best way to take down Mazarin and Order?   I like the idea of this show's d'Artagnan Jr. (it's treated like a last name), having inherited a barony from his mom, as I understand was true of the "real d'Artagnan's" son. Do you ever wonder how characters in very fictional versions of the past would react to real-world events?  Louis XIV followed what he thought the purpose of a king and pursued "gloire"- glory, grandeur, and fame for France.  He was very successful at that.  France would, for the most part, be the place to look for art, fashion, food, etc. for centuries afterward throughout western Europe and the anglosphere  - indeed, today it still has that cachet in some aspects.  But the ordinary people didn't  fare so well understand. Jacqueline is the only one that seems to be from French peasantry (albeit the better-off part, judging from what we saw of her home), and yet I think she'd be one of the most enthusiastic - I think it aligns with her perception of what's good for a kingdom, too.  She has notions of the glory of battle and France, herself.  Ramon is the most likely to think on those things, I think. But he's a Spaniard in France, so that's a whole different thing. 

They're all Catholic, so how do they feel about the increasing persecution of Protestants in the coming decades?  Certainly d'Artagnan didn't like Cromwell's persecution of Catholics (Cromwell and Charles II appeared in one ep), but I don't think he'd feel so strongly about it flowing the other way.  Provided they don't die before then, I don't expect any of them to be thrilled over the Glorious Revolution, but which would see it in a purely political way, in regards to what was achievable in Britain - and possibly what it means for France, but GB really was small potatoes compared to France back then.

And how does Ramon feel about feel about the War of Devolution? I mean, he left Spain for France, despite them being often at war, so he can't be too fussed over that sort of thing. And countries going to war over valuable territory like the Netherlands would be typical and expected in the time, I thought. While completely ahistorical (which I think suits the source material) I kinda like the idea, too, that just before his nature was revealed to Louis, Mazarin finally managed to get the musketeers disbanded (the show is set in 1652, when they actually were disbanded for a while).  And I'd kill off Mazarin and several of his order.  It'd still be mid-1650s, so too early for the real world, but I think it'd suit the story.  Louis can't reform them immediately, because it would make the King look in-constant. And Mazarin's betrayal really leads to Louis' determination to keep as much power as possible in his own hands and he become his own Prime  Minister (as he actually did when Mazarin died) and this is part of the aspect of why he's consolidating power in himself (which he really did, but it started earlier and he personally had the motivation of the Fronde, which is only passingly mentioned in the show).

[tzigone]

Relationship dynamic between John and James (and Lucy)

In the first episode, Lucy indicates calls typically come on birthdays and anniversaries. John hasn't seen Henry in a while. Later, Lucy says John's always invited to Christmas, and John says only Lucy invites him, not James. And he's a little put out not being in James' address book. Lastly, when he calls about aging and coming home to an empty house, Lucy talks like John was the one who became distant.

I am wondering - did James stop inviting John became John always said "no"? Either in an accepting his choice way, or just because getting repeatedly rejected might hurt (remember that James is indicated to have some issues interacting with people/the world, too, though certainly better at it than John). Or was something else going on?

Did John just retreat further and further into his comfort zone (perhaps particularly after their mother died?)? Just stop going anywhere, stop seeing anyone - even his brother?

I guess my curiosity is if there was anything in particular in their adult lives to motivate the relationship ending up in this state - if it was a conscious choice or mostly a lack of maintenance? It does take work to maintain relationships, especially those that don't have the careless ease of proximity.

[tzigone]

Silent Knight

So, I was looking into DC heroes set further back than the 19th century (I've read some of the westerns, and was interested in characters set further back). I came across the Silent Knight. A previous incarnation of Hawkman and a possible ancestor to our Kent family of fame - both retconned, of course. And really, when you get that many centuries back, there have to be a lot of descendants if there are any at all.

Anyway, in the first issues, he is an apprentice knight - as to be expected, he's in a general, fictionalized, mish-mash medieval setting. Far south of the Thames, seems to have his own country that his father co-ruled with his villain, people wear chainmail and they have nice stone castles. Don't know what era to set that in. England doesn't seem to be unified, but surnames, jousting, noble knights, etc. exist (giving me 12th-ish century vibes). I don't mind adding in a fictional kingdom for DC, though, and setting it post-unification, if that suits better - DC has plenty of fictional places, and it can end up part of the UK at some later date.

I know later Galahad and Lancelot show up (and are peers).

Sixth century is the setting listed in the dc fandom, which I get.

But then, it's a fictional setting in much the same way that westerns are in a fictional setting. Still, at least I can tie the westerns to some sort of time frame and place. No idea what to do with this one.

[tzigone]

Do they know Clark is Superman?

So, given the dialog at the end of the movie, do you think Perry and Jimmy know Superman is Clark Kent? Haven't read an interview or any such thing. Solely from the movie, I thought "absolutely."

[tzigone]

Just saw first season of Ludwig

I enjoyed it, and am looking forward to season 2. I'm glad there's been no romance with John and Lucy. And that our teenage character has an old enough actor that aging won't be a problem is seasons are going to cover a short amount of time each. Not sure how long the story can reasonably be drug out and it not feel like a hamster-wheel/get tedious that they haven't gotten James yet, but they did move forward and kill theme one (impersonation) with the first season finale, so I'm optimistic.

I just enjoy John. He cares, and he's brilliant. He's left his comfort range and found there's more out there in the world. And he's developed much more of a relationship with his nephew. Firstly, I think Lucy runs roughshod over him. Not really the healthiest relationship dynamic, but things like that played for humor on tv is typical, and it was funny. He's more willing to believe bad of James than Lucy, but then James is Lucy's soulmate, and John has a giant, super-sensitive spot about fathers leaving families.

I'm still not sure exactly what James intended. He certainly meant for Lucy to get the real message in his note. I would think he wanted to give her options (as with the finale message to John), but the notebook was at work. He's probably got a plan, but I don't know how much of what happened was according to his plan, or why he absented himself. I'm not sure he's the type to force John into things like Lucy is. I do think he cares more about his "cause" and justice and the victims that Lucy does (though we can see when actually faced with them, she cares more, too). John similarly insults James for not prioritizing his family, but also has to help people. Certainly James wouldn't have expected Lucy to just do as she was told. James may be better adjusted, but given his car, I think we can say he has some daddy issues, too.

Ziegler and Carter. Does anyone else wonder if Mandy's death will play in later? Obviously, she exists and has to at least be believed dead, as that's too easy to check. But could her death be part of the bigger story? Ziegler have someone else pulling his strings using his family? But then, there have been other things that turned out unrelated - it may not be as big as that and a coincidence just be a coincidence.

I'm curious on the dynamic with co-workers. Russell, of course, didn't really know James. But how long did Finch and Evans know James, and how well? What are their personal feelings on his disappearance?

[tzigone]

Is there any DC character you think would hate a "milestone" birthday?

I was thinking about this with another fandom recently. A character I think would hate turning 30 because 30 is no longer actively young. Especially given the type of character he is and that that series in set in 1968 in the midst of the "youthquake."

But it made me wonder which DC characters would dislike milestone birthdays (at least in a world where time progresses more/stories have ends). I've read 30 bothers people most. Leaving the era of being one of the youth behind, or people not having accomplished the goals they wanted to by that age (personal or professional). Then there's 40, 50, 60, etc.? Though really, given the way comics work, I have significant trouble imagining characters every being 50 - most of the non-powered or less-powered folk would have needed to retire (or be killed off) before then, as they just can't operate at the same level anymore.

I thought not accomplishing those goals might bother Ray Palmer. He was very ambitious, and so if he hadn't done the things he wanted, made a big splashy name for himself, that 30 might bother him. If he has already made that name, then no problems.

I don't see 30 or 40 bothering Clark or Ollie. Clark obviously accomplishes a lot in career. Then he'll have his marriage and family and he doesn't have the same issues with his body wearing down - his speed and strength may not be at their peak, anymore, but it just doesn't matter much, given how far beyond normal he is.

I wasn't sure about Bruce. I think non problem at all with 30. But if he hasn't accomplished what he wants (I've talked about my view of his path before), then I could see 40 bothering him a lot. Facing the idea that he can't do this forever, and Gotham isn't crime-free, and if he's gone the route where he doesn't trust anyone else to do it, it could be very rough for him. And for anyone he takes it out on. And if he's still trying to do the job at 50...

At first I was thinking of Ralph and Wally freaking out of over the "not being young anymore." But then I thought how (silver age) Ralph absolutely pursued all the things he wanted (stretchy secret, fame and fortune, love of his life, mysteries), and just how very happy he was and thought I like the idea of him reaching 30 and having just everything he wanted and being as happy then as he was in his early 20s traveling with Sue. Sue can be bit vain, though, so age might bother her a little. And Wally has his wife and children, too. Still, I could see him being just a little off-kilter at no longer being in his young years. But then, maybe the teen teams that exist already made him feel divorced from feeling young years ago - or maybe he thinks the teenagers are morons for thinking 30 is old.

[tzigone]

New origin stories - The Atom and Bumblebee

Okay, so per original origins (at least as far as I recall - been a few years since I read these), Ray started his gig as a superhero to make his girlfriend more successful at her job (because she'd only marry after proving she could be a good lawyer and seems to intend to retire to housewifery after that, if I recall correctly), and Karen started her career by pretending to be a villain so her boyfriend would look more impressive to the Teen Titans.

I'd kinda like better origin stories. Ray's doesn't make sense as time slides on by and I have his debut circa 2000. But I still want him to view heroing as something temporary when he starts it. And I still want him to be the one more eager for commitment than Jean.

And Karen's is not great, either, IMO. It's all for benefit of a guy, and it's deceptive to others. I did plan Mal to still join by jumping in and being a protector - still someone who fights for those attacked (but without the whole plotline where they won't use their powers and such).

Really, both of these origins make it look like Karen and Ray have no faith the ability of their partners to succeed on their own merits.

Anyone got any ideas?

[tzigone]

Unplanned opportunities

For my headcanon reboot, I started with Damian born in 2000, then set up relative birthdates around him. This wound up with Dick born in 1985. I have Hank the same age as Dick. So that means 9/11 happens around the time Hank and Don become Hawk and Dove get their powers in this universe. Given their start in the Vietnam war, it's certainly rife with possibility.

[tzigone]

What are the flaws of your favorite comic character - particularly in your headcanon? What characters do you love *in spite* of their flaws, instead of because of their flaws?

There are numerous characters I really like, of course. But there are some I like because of seeing them grow and mature and surpass bad behaviors (Gar Logan in the 1980s NTT, Kon in his early stories, Bart Allen in 90s Impulse), and some that I just like and think were great when I started reading them or in a particular run (Jaime Reyes, Dick Grayson), though some of those (so much Dick Grayson), I think were really awful in other runs (always a risk with any long-running character that's gotten lots of page time - they will have multiple personalities over time and while you may like all the variations, usually there's going to be one you don't).

When you have a lot of writers and decades of history, then I think most of us are going to strip out characterizations or events we don't like for our headcanon - I certainly am. Most of post Dick Grayson's characterization from Devin-Grayson and beyond is not my headcanon version. I favor a mish-mash of 1970-1990s (mostly 1970s through COIE, then picking up with Dixon, but excluding late 80s and early 90s) with just a few tinges from other areas. Or Jaime Reyes - so much the first 25 issues of the 2006 run (probably the only character I have that narrowly).

So, the thing becomes when you take a character love, and particularly one you think had already reached end-state in growth (teen characters tend to grow and mature more than adult ones), what flaws do you think they should have? Ones that you think are fundamental to their characters, or ones you think they should be confronted over (particularly relevant if it affects others). And I don't mean "he's so sensitive and hurt easily, so everyone else has to baby him" but things where you actually think it's reasonable for the audience or other characters to find these annoying flaws (even if they make the character more three-dimensional and human) and even cease the relationship (as reader, lover or friend) over them.

Obviously, bad decisions and character flaws from your main character can drive drama. I, at least, don't want a character to always made bad decisions or have their flaws destroy their lives (at least not more than once), but I don't want to flatten a character to the no-flaws sort who's drama comes from the other characters treating them badly when my character is always right, either. But there are certain few characters that I adore that it's really hard for me to make them do stupid stuff or take the wrong side in an argument. These characters are generally ones I think have good traits/judgements/decisions far outweigh the bad ones - but that doesn't mean there are no bad ones.

So, I'm interested in the perspective of those who love a character, and don't want their flaws to treated as though they never existed, but don't have the flaws themselves as the point of appeal.

Next time: the degree to which you headcanon characters you like disagreeing with your political, economic, cultural or religious opinion. Particularly relevant with long-abandoned characters we haven't seen much in decades and thus lived in an era of different cultural norms.

[tzigone]

I really enjoyed the Dick/Tim dynamic in the 90s. To my mind, they were always much more emotionally close than Tim and Bruce (Tim talked Dick, Alfred, and Barbara about personal stuff in a way he didn't with Bruce). Dick and Damian are close, but in just a totally different way.

I like the Batfamily more "segmented" and less all-together. So Dick is close with Barbara, but Jason and Damian aren't. Tim and Cass close with Steph, but Dick and Jason not. I do think there are too many of them to all work well together, but I like so many of them.

Hated Steph ever being Batgirl - I liked her better as an independent who forged her own path, defied Batman, and didn't have a boss. But she got a watered-down version of the Jason treatment, and got handed an idiot-ball and death and then a character/personality rewrite (far from the only bat-character to get her personality changed) when the death was revealed fake. I'd have to have seen her grow as Spoiler back in those days to the point where she told the Bats she didn't need their approval or validation (and it actually be true). Cass never respected her abilities, of course, despite their affection. Sadly, Tim's respect varied, and somehow her having a Bat on her chest - having validation by his seniors - was treated as the greatest marker of her deserving respect. Not a fan of legacies in that regard - I understand the reasons from a business/IP perspective, but I like young heroes making their names just a great.

I'd be much more interested in seeing more a dynamic with Tim and Jason than Damian and Jason (I know they have the League associations, but Jason big ball of projection calling Tim "replacement" is so interesting to me). Mind you, while young Jason got totally trash-talked and victim-blamed and made into a "bad seed" by DC in ways that infuriate me, I'm not into anti-heroes and the sort of character Jason came back as. So Tim interacting with him and helping him change to the degree that he actually could be accepted by Bruce as part of his family would be interesting. Though that's more AU for him shortly after he returned, and I can understand the idea that he shouldn't have to change, that that could be treated as backwards character progression. But I can't buy Bruce or Dick being okay with him over for family dinners with how he kills at certain times in the comics.

Dick and Tim are amazing together.

Not doing another long post yet because that’s a lot of work, but I finished the third collection of Nightwing 1996 and I’m starting to realize just how close Dick and Tim are.

There’s an issue just called “The Boys”, and it’s where they go train surfing and Tim tells Dick that Stephanie is pregnant. They banter the whole issue. There are so many heartwarming interactions. I love it.

Besides the Robin-centric issue, Tim pops in and out all the time, and every interaction they have is so full of warmth on either end.

It makes me sad that brother interactions in fanon are essentially contained to Jason and Damian. I think the latter in particular makes sense; Damian is more recent, so his character is fresher and people are more recently reminded of Damian. Meanwhile, Tim is kind of non-existent in more recent comics and ESPECIALLY alternative media compared to his previous presence. So newer fans just aren’t familiar with their relationship.

(Admittedly I’m more “meh” on Jason post-resurrection but I totally get his character’s appeal. I’m just not a huge fan of his archetype.)

Still, Dick and Tim’s relationship is priceless. They’re my favorite inter-character interactions thus far. Dick is so patient and silly when showing Tim the ropes of being Robin, but he’s also kind of a little shit at times in the way any dorky older brother is. Tim is so open and self-conscious about his struggles, like with his family and his feelings about being Robin (both whether he’s good enough and whether he even wants to be a vigilante), and Dick is there every step of the way to assure him that he’s doing incredible. It’s such a healthy dynamic.

Anyways, more love to Dick and Tim. It almost makes me wish there was more content nowadays that’s pre-Damian and pre-Jason. Not that I dislike either character — I LOVE Damian in the Dick Grayson Batman and Robin run so much it’s not even funny — but I wish there was more of both I guess.

[tzigone]

I'm pretty sure it was in the letters page that Talia was 19 (therefore not an assumption). I remember being surprised about it, because I'd thought her in medical school (not knowing how education at that place worked). I'm not 100% positive about this, but I do seem to remember it.

And the multiple degrees and 150 years old thing is a retcon, so I can agree it's "no longer" her real age, but if my memory is correct and it was in the letters page, it's not "fandom" saying something, it's "Word of God" at the time the comics were published. If I'm wrong, then...I'm wrong.

In the fandom there was a lot of "Talia and Dick were close in age when Talia started dating Bruce" I believed it and made posts about it. Turns out in the comic series Talia is 150 years old. Which is no longer her real age because in later comics Talia and Bruce were made to be childhood friends. As well as a lot of comics Talia has made it clear that she will never ever use the Lazarus pit. Obviously 150 years old Talia was very dependent on the Lazarus pit and Ra's.

Now here's my point, the fact that Dick and Talia were in university at the same time honestly couldn't have mean that they are close in age. Obviously to the generation who was there with the release of said comic could have assumed that. With us decades later the assumption doesn't hold up. Why? Because if we check Talia's stats and stuff you will see she has multiple degrees. She could have attained those degrees and then moved to Med school because Med school doesn't have a starting age.

[tzigone]

Wow, calling people who don't agree with you DISGUSTING - pretty crappy. I don't care about realism. I care about the original story and history and he was not treated (nor did he look or act) like an 8 year old in those golden age stories.

There’s a reddit thread rn abt how old Dick should be when he becomes Robin and Nightwing and it’s taking all my willpower not to comment “let that third grader kick a henchman in the nuts!” The AMOUNT of people insisting he’s gotta be 12+ when he becomes Robin DISGUSTING it’s horrible I hate it. You want him to be a TEENAGER when he starts being Robin? I’m gonna gag. He should be a feral terrifying wraith of a child who puts the fear of God in these goons making poor life choices, bc why is a small child roundhouse kicking them in the mouth and knocking out a tooth and then cackling about it from the rafters? “iT’s mORe reALisTic!!1!” It’s a COMIC it’s a cartoon when the fuck was BATMAN AND ROBIN supposed to be realistic??All the more reason to hate Reddit tbh

[tzigone]

I'm the complete reverse - firstly, he was not depicted as that young in the actual golden age comics (not in behaviors, civilian storylines, how he went undercover, etc.). Even the one where that birthday (that would have been 8th, btw, the way we did birthday licks when I was a kid) had teenage number of candles on the cake. He worked jobs when child labor for that age was not allowed. I hated him being babyfied in later versions. Worse, Wolfman did it with the other Teen Titans, too, when they were actually depicted as a minimum of 14 (for Wally) and 15 (Dick) in those stories and more likely 15/16. Wally was in high school before he became Kid Flash originally, and Wonder Girl should not have known Dick since he was 13. Love a lot of aspects of New Teen Titans, but not that.

Also, Bruce didn't look anything like as young as 8 in his "15 years ago" flashbacks when his parents were killed when his backstory was first shown, either.

This is me being petty but I don’t even like when they age Dick up to 9 when he becomes Robin. Like really? You’re really gonna make it one measly year’s difference? 10 I can kind of understand, bc at least he’s in the double digits so it doesn’t feel quite so much like reckless child endangerment. But NINE? Hated that Young Justice did that to my boy. That they’d sully his legacy like that. Terrible.

“Make him older so his trauma isn’t exactly the same as Bruce’s” NO that’s literally the WHOLE POINT the parallels in their situations are WHY BRUCE ADOPTS HIM god

[tzigone]

I just strongly disagree with the others all being inferior to Bruce. Always denigrates them, IMO (mind you, I'm also not fond of legacies - they can be just a great under their own names). And Dick was, at least at one time, an absolutely brilliant detective (and Barbara a detective, too). That's something that becomes problematic with they get put on team - each has skills taken away from them/diminished so the others shine in that areas. They become less capable all-around heroes so one can be "the brains" another "the muscle" or whatnot. Or brains in different aspects, sometimes. But they get "flattened" into one skillset or a more narrow personality compared to the days when Dick, Barbara or Tim worked solo.

I do think the older characters suffer more from this than the newer ones, since they had more time to develop when they could be all of that instead of just "one of the family" but must also acknowledge that Dick and Barbara, at least, are less likely to get totally forgotten when the next new family member comes along than newer members are (even if they still end up rewritten).

So, my dad made a Batfamily timeline idea. Where instead of Dick becoming Batman everyone did.

Here's how it went, Dick was the face Oracle would be tech, Tim is detective all working together. This stemmed from no one being able to be as big, work as hard as Bruce did. And keep their own lives so it was divided. For most of the batfamily taking various tasks, Jason going after the corrupt, Dick is criminals, Tim any detective work. Barbara has computer science