#This is all so hard for me to articulate does anyone get it. Hello. Hello?

[hylianane]

Do you think. That after Sanji asked Zoro to kill him. He took a moment wonder if, had Kuina lived to adulthood, at the end of their journey, would whoever killed Mihawk first have to fight the other to protect their title? Do you think the next time they fought after Sanji’s request, Kitetsu would cut just a little too close to Sanji’s throat, because her master was too preoccupied thinking, would I have been able to do it? Kill her, if it came to that? For my dream? and later when he’s carefully wiping Sanji’s blood off his blade, do you think, that maybe he would think- the dream was hers before it was mine. Would I have felt betrayed, then, if she killed me? Or proud? Pleased? Happy?

When Sanji interrupts his thoughts to say, what the hell has got you so distracted? Am I too boring for you to take seriously? do you think Zoro would glare at him in silence cause there’s no way for him to articulate that he’s never taken anything more seriously in his life.

[callizinc]

Ena in Dream BBQ and Work Culture

HELLO Dashboard!! Ever since i first played DBBQ i've found the entire game endlessly interesting (as have most people, LOL) But one of the most interesting, and in my opinion, most Potent things, is Ena's character and how she relates to the game's commentary on modern work culture.

So for anyone as much of a #SICKO as me 😭 Here's an embarrassingly long analysis of just that! There's SO much to talk about with this game, and even when I'm trying to focus on one specific idea with this post, I'm sure I'll still miss things, so just stick with me best you can OK? 😭 😭

My aim for this post is to allow you to understand Just how deep in the torment nexus Ena is, and to want to say "she should be at the club" Only to realize she can't even go to the club. She can't even go to the club. Because of Job. (Among other, hopefully more intelligently articulated things!)

SO, Let's just jump right in :D

First, to state the obvious—Ena's literal entire life is her job. The only moods she expresses under normal circumstance are "smooth talking salesperson where every line is about working or trying to sell something" and "Stops keeping up the veneer and gets frustrated and pissed because she hates her stupid job."

This permeates every aspect of her character—I don't think there's a single line in the game so far where she says like, Anything about herself. There's nothing about what she may want or what she may like. It's all about her fuckass job or the fuckass Boss.

And of course, even in gameplay aspects, you literally don't get a chance to choose whether you accept a job or not, like the thought of doing anything besides giving her time and energy for other people or her job's benefit doesn't even occur to her (Or, it can't occur to her—I doubt the Boss would want to allow her reprieve from anything at all, and I'm sure Ena would know this).

(^ Ena's reaction to being told to find a mythical figure that she maybe didn't even know existed cause Froggy sure as hell didn't to do a stupid job for Froggy's stupid ass. Like)

Maybe i'm reaching here, but I even find it interesting how her red hand has no fingers (besides a thumb). I feel like that represents a lack of individuality she has when she's in Salesperson mode, or at least, a lack of individuality she's been allowed. A lack of having a defined being cause it's all about this stupid job.

There's lots of avenues to go from here, but let's start with another big point of the game: Everybody hates her. Except for like, three characters, every NPC in the game either insults her, talks down to her, blatantly doesn't respect her, or Literally tells her nobody should be punished for being born except her. Typical day for Ena.

I'm not going to get into why I think this is—for me there's not enough evidence to speculate with surety right now—but I think this does tie strongly into her commitment to her job. Ena working her ass off in every aspect of her life and earning nothing but disrespect for it is very reminiscent of real life work environments.

Think of how almost every NPC claims they are "the Boss" in such a way that many of them seem to want to be the Boss, like he's some kind of well-known or respected figure. The description for the game on Steam even says as much: "Play as ENA as she searches for the Boss that everyone wants to be."

(eg: "I am the B-O-S-S!"):

People wish they were the Boss, they want to be some kind of rich capitalist with power and fame, but when looking at someone who actually works for him, and probably is the reason the Boss has profit and success in the first place, they insult her and demean her no matter how much she gives herself to them and the Boss. I'm sure you can see the real life parallels here.

It's even possible one of the reasons Ena works so hard in the first place is as an attempt to earn respect from these people, or to make up for whatever everyone thinks she did that made everyone hate her so much. Especially considering...

Our society is one that tells its people that Work is unequivocally Good. Committing yourself to work is what everyone, no matter who they are or what they face, is what you have to do to be a valuable member of society, and to have any respect from other people in the slightest. It tells its people that you only have value as a living human being at all if you give your life to work.

Even though this blatantly isn't true. If people think you're the Wrong type of worker, or if people think your work isn't valuable, helpful, or that it doesn't require skill, you can work as hard as you want but you'll still be treated like shit. But, hey, work is still your duty as a member of society, right? Stop bitching and whining and pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right?

Needless to say, it's easy to see how this whole idea is being represented in DBBQ. She even knows how much she's sold herself to this, she just... Seems to have extremely casually accepted it all LOL, which, I mean... What else does she have the power to do?

This very casual and nonchalant acknowledgement of her lack of autonomy connects to another big point: Ena doesn't value herself, nor does she even know how to exist without being in a constant state of working.

Let's talk about the Purge: There's a LOT to get to here in terms of Ena herself LOL, but the intrigue starts before she even enters the party. Literally Froggy just saying she's about to enter an "Event" stops her in her tracks and worries her. Not to mention the next line...

This feels like an indication that despite how much she commits herself to it, Ena does "crave freedom" from her shitty job, although she can scarcely admit this anywhere else so far. Then, if you talk to this slime guy, you get some strange text.

As far as I know, the text for interacting with things doesn't look like this anywhere else in the game. And given that it looks exactly the same as how Ena's lines do in the Purge, it's seemingly the only peek we get into her internal monologue, and it is. Quite worrying! She literally can climb up a hellish freezing floating mountain and yet this is by far the most freaked out she gets in the entire game.

And then to actually get into the Purge, an Evil eye Ball tells her that she needs to give a literal arm or a leg to get in. And she just does it. Like no hesitation no further questions she just gives it away to the evil eye ball. Presumably for Good? Because the only reason she regains the arm later is because of Genie magic? Like Ena. Girl. Are we gonna talk about this at all.

But so many real life work environments expect you to give every part of yourself in order to be allowed to exist and live in society, including your physical being and critical parts of your personhood at all.

(Let me also say I find it intentional that she gave away her white arm. Whereas her red hand literally doesn't have fingers, the sharp claws she has on her white hand represent the individuality and unique identity she Does have. However, it's also the part of herself that's in conflict with her ability to be a Good Worker, that always does exactly what she's supposed to do, and never complains, and never gets in the way of her duties.)

She was already very distressed here, but it's a clear indication of how little she values herself. It was a motion to lose a part of herself just to reach the Genie, both for her stupid job, and possibly for the possibility of "freedom" from it all. And your average job these days—no matter how important you are to your cause—will drill it into you that your ability to be a good worker is infinitely more important than your existence as a person. It's easy to see how Ena may have internalized that.

And then she goes to the club one time and this happens

I won't get too deep into her dialogue with the NPCs here because I think their intention is pretty clear; Being in a place so antithetical to a work environment, and a place where she's supposed to let loose and have fun, is so distressing and impossible to even fathom for her that This Happens.

(see: "H-How can I leave this stupid event? M-my lame schedule is full,")

Like, everything at the Purge is insane, but this is a particularly heartbreaking line for me. One because of her job's shitty environment that's broken her down so much—do you think she EVER gets a break, because I sure don't—but also because of how it's conditioned her to not even believe she can "afford another minute of joy." Ena :[

Note how she's covered in these branches that started growing during Froggy's phone call, which look very similar to how she looks in this gag with the Shaman—it's literally her nervous system. In her scene with Mitu she even says she's feeling "sick," She's literally freaked out of her flipping Gourd with her goddamn Nerves On The Outside

Hell, even though Meanie's speaking (which, I mean, no shit, in another line she literally describes her job as "deplorable" 😭), these sprites in the files are actually labelled "Anxiety", suggesting that she's SO freaked out by being somewhere supposed to be so opposite to her work she's become another variant of herself, a la Drunk Ena from Season 1.

I won't get much more into this, because @cube-cumb3r has a PHENOMENAL post I'll link in the notes that goes deeper into this stuff from the Purge and the "Anxiety" thing, And also gets more into theory territory than I do here! Please please go read that post, it is so damn good.

In any case, I think the scenes with the Purge NPCs are the biggest examples in the whole game of how much she hates her fuckass job, yet she can't be allowed to be anything besides a wage slave to it. And just as she's internalized everybody in her world's dislike of her, she hates herself for it.

So:

We've established that Ena's shitty job parallels the real life work conditions that plague our world, and that these conditions have caused her to devalue herself and believe she can't have any reprieve from them... but, what even is her job?

Apparently she's a salesperson, but what is she even selling? She tries to offer a "divestment opportunity", and tells the Witches she can show them how to "grow [their] own [boss]" which definitely falls in line with the Sales thing, but besides that it's still not clear, even when she talks to Froggy.

I suppose the "grow their own boss" line does sound a lot like the phrasing used in MLM schemes, with how they lure people in by telling them they can "be their own boss." The Receptionist also calls Ena a scammer and a conman, so maybe she is a sort of scammer, but, I also don't exactly think the Receptionist think she has the most reliable opinions of Ena LOL

She also calls her a "pink-collar slug", pink collar meaning a job traditionally associated with women, which. ??? I don't fully know where to go with that.. like ...Nothing she does harkens to... Any kind of job expected to be done by women, imo?? Um. Yeah idk i just thought that may be significant??/ 😭😭😭😭 Listen man I can't know it all

Anyway. Maybe I'll be proven embarrassingly wrong when we receive more information in future chapters, but I think the lack of clarity on what she's supposed to be is representative of the games themes. The constant disrespect Ena receives makes her seem likely to be a low-tier worker, someone at the bottom of the ladder that people have no problems walking all over.

Because these types of jobs will treat you the same no matter who you are or what you're supposed to be doing. She's doing what the world tells her she needs to do in order to be a respected member of society, and yet she's also someone people feel comfortable treating poorly because she's at the bottom—because has no power of her own. It doesn't matter what she's supposed to be doing, it matters that she's the Wrong type of worker.

And how is she supposed to ever say anything for herself? It seems virtually baked into her Salesperson side to completely ignore past all the rude things these assholes say to her. After all, not only would that probably just make most people ruder to her (and impede her ability to complete jobs for them) isn't the customer always right?

...OK I will say her whole "Understood! Aim for the target!" line DOES seem like her overall job here is to fucking kill the Boss, but this is long enough already and the likely theme of Ena having a violent streak and whatnot is another beast entirely that I am NOT getting into here 😭😭

Besides, maybe she has no clearly defined job because we've already seen exactly what it is. To sell her life, time, and emotions to whatever all these clowns ask of her, and to receive no reward besides another goddamn job to do.

I think future chapters may delve more into Ena's true feelings on her situation, and possibly even how she'll get freedom from it. Allow me to mention the scenes with Theodora, wherein if you try to "aspire to receive a blissful life" Theodora just tells Ena "You can't aspire for more than what you are capable of." (LIKE OKAYYYY.... RUDE MUCH????)

Until, finally:

How is her mind—containing a desire for freedom—supposed to be in harmony with the letters it spits out, when she's been so conditioned that the only thing she's allowed to be is a worker?

Now, even I still have a lot of questions after this. Like: What has happened in Ena's past that made her this way? How and why did she take this job in the first place? What is up with the "Guys wait, I'm not doing what you say I'm doing" scene I literally didn't even mention that once here. Why should nobody be punished for being born except poor damn Ena, and does it relate to any of the themes I just talked about?

I... don't know. Like I actually truly have no idea. But I have confidence, even if it's in a delightfully vague and abstract Ena-typical way, that we'll find out eventually.

[scribefindegil]

Lorraine Baines McFly and Female Autonomy

Hello. I have spent the past month slowly losing my mind about Lorraine Baines McFly, Marty's mom in Back to the Future, so I am finally trying to articulate some of the reasons I'm so feral about her.

There's a quote from Lea Thompson, the actress who played Lorraine, that goes, "The three parts that women usually get to play are virgins, whores, and mothers, and in Back to the Future Part II, I got to play all three." While this is commentary on Hollywood and the limited roles that fictional women get forced into, I think it's also interesting to think about it in terms of how these roles are reflected onto actual women and used to limit their personhood and confine them to a very narrow range of acceptable behaviors . . . and then in turn to think about how the character interacts with these roles on a Watsonian level. They're affecting not just Lorraine the character as she was written, but Lorraine from an in-universe perspective trying to navigate life as a woman in a patriarchal world. Some of the sexism she faces is a deliberate narrative choice and some of it is a result of the writers' blind spots, but for the purpose of this essay I'm less interested in teasing out which threads are which and more in looking at it holistically.

Because the thing about Lorraine is that she's aware of what the acceptable roles and behaviors for women are, and the versions that we see of her across the various timelines alternately fight against and capitulate to these constraints. What is a woman allowed to be? How much is Lorraine willing to break from those restrictions? How much does she allow other women to break from them? Does she resent her role or embrace it? I have a lot of thoughts specifically about how the different iterations of her interact with concepts of female agency and autonomy.

(Putting this under a cut because it is. Long.)

I started thinking about this when I was talking with my partner about 50's Lorraine. She's extremely active and driven and planning to Get What She Wants (in a way that is very scary, if you are Marty) . . . but at the same time she's clearly aware that she isn't supposed to be. A Good Fifties Girl is demure and passive. Lorraine isn't--but she's still trying to toe the line. I think constantly about the scene where she shows up at Doc's garage to be like "I followed you home . . . so that I can ask you to ask me to the dance." The girl can embrace borderline stalking but she draws the line at directly asking a boy out! She's exercising a lot of agency but views doing so as rebellious and subversive--and risky.

And I also want to talk about the whole "boy crazy" thing because like . . . society (especially in the fifties) tells women that the most important thing they can possibly do is find a good man and become wives and mothers, that this will define the success or failure of their entire lives (and given how many things were unavailable to single women at the time this is in many ways true) . . . and then relentlessly mocks and punishes anyone who actually takes an interest in pursuing this instead of just sitting back passively and waiting. She is trying to do what society says will make her happy! And even her desire for a white knight is very much based in the reality of her situation! She's getting sexually harassed at school and around town and she's doing exactly what she's supposed to and standing up for herself and saying no and fighting back--and this is not enough. She does need backup! Biff harasses her in the middle of a crowded cafeteria and Marty is the ONLY person who does anything! No fucking wonder she latches onto him as hard as she does! (There's. I promise this is related but there's a BttF parody musical on YouTube where when Strickland comes to break up the lunchroom fight he says, "Now, I can excuse sexual harassment, but LIGHT SHOVING?" and like it's a haha funny joke but also?? Yeah?? That IS how it works. The way Lorraine's being treated is so overlooked and normalized that the authority figure isn't going to step up the way he will when it's a physical altercation between two guys. Screams.) I wonder if part of the reason she stuck with George in the original timeline even though they didn't have a lot in common is that "I have a boyfriend" is a boundary that some people might actually take seriously whereas "I'm not interested" is not.

But. In general 50's Lorraine is very much about grabbing as much agency as she feels she's allowed to . . . and then Twin Pines Lorraine is what happens when she regrets the result of those choices (because while we don't see it, it's pretty obvious that in the original timeline she pursued George as aggressively as she pursues Marty in the new one), and so she decides to deny, not just her own agency, but female agency as a general concept. She leans so heavily on the idea that her relationship was "meant to be" because it absolves her of any culpability in creating a life she's unhappy with. She's rewritten her own past to view herself as a passive participant in something inevitable. (Exactly the view of womanhood that she was fighting so hard against in the 50's!) And she extends this idea of female passivity to the women around her: telling Linda that she should sit back and wait and a relationship will "just happen," actively resenting Jennifer for doing something as simple as calling Marty on the phone. It's a really interesting form of internalized misogyny, perpetuating these sexist ideas as almost a misguided form of self-defense.

And then for Lone Pine Lorraine this is completely flipped! She loves Jennifer for the same reason she disliked her in Twin Pines: because she reminds Lorraine of her younger self. And like . . . this is something of an extrapolation, but while obviously her husband and kids are still very important to her, it also feels like she has interests and friends and other things going on in her life, whereas part of the isolation of Twin Pines is that her life has shrunk down to the point where she's ONLY a wife and mother with nothing else to define herself by. And it also matters that in this timeline she has a partner that supports her, not just in the big dramatic moments (although also that), but you can easily see the dance as a catalyst for George actually learning to listen to her and stand up for her about smaller things as well. George McFly feminism arc. (I'm being slightly facetious but like. George starts off kind of shitty. The spying is actively Bad and I hope Marty chewed him out for it offscreen, but also his reaction to the harassment scene being "I think there's someone else she'd rather go with," implying that he sees what Biff is doing as like. Normal flirting that he expects to work. He doesn't GET it. Unsurprising because he is. A teenage boy in the fifties. But I do believe that saving Lorraine was something of a wakeup call and after that he listened to her about things that make her uncomfortable and gave her the support that she needed. Which would also give her a lot more freedom in this timeline because she has someone with more societal power who has her back!)

And then. Hell Valley.

If Lone Pine is the version of Lorraine who has the most freedom, the most opportunities to make decisions based on what she wants instead of What Is Expected Of A Woman, Hell Valley is the opposite. The things denying her agency in Twin Pines is largely societal forces (and herself); in Hell Valley she is actively being denied autonomy by her evil husband who functions as the personification of a bunch of sexist ideas.

She's been objectified to the point that she doesn't maintain control over her own body; Biff pressures her to get cosmetic surgeries so she can continue to look attractive to him because that's the only value he sees in her. Her physical appearance is entirely tailored to his preferences.

Biff's view of Lorraine is wife-as-possession. He treats her like a prize he's won and her kids like parasites. And he is NOT subtle about this. But Lorraine is still desperately clinging to the idea that she's wife-as-family. She calls Biff "your father" to Marty when he arrives, and talks about "our children" because she wants so so badly for this to be something different than what it is. It's especially terrible because this is a timeline where she got seventeen years of being happy with George, she knows what she's missing, and she keeps trying to force this new relationship into a similar mold even though Biff is openly contemptuous of her and especially her kids. It's been twelve years and she's still trying to pretend. To call back to that Lea Thompson quote: it's obvious where Biff thinks Lorraine fits on the virgin-mother-whore axis, while Lorraine is actively trying to centralize her motherhood partially because the kids really are that important to her and partially as a defense mechanism.

(And it's also such a bleak cautionary tale about how fragile women's stability can be when they're dependent on their husbands; Lorraine was happy with George and had a fair amount of freedom, but he was the only one with an income so when he died she was suddenly forced into a truly horrific situation because she had no other means to support herself and her three young children. Especially given that the Hell Valley universe is also worse in some broader political ways that mean there were probably even fewer social supports available than in real life 1973)

And god. It kills me the way that we see her lash out, the way she's clawing for autonomy when she threatens to leave . . . and then exactly how Biff levels all his axes of control against her. It's very interesting that his first tactic is consumerist (Who will pay for all your things? Who will take care of you?) and that doesn't work even though not being able to support herself is a very real concern. It's only when he threatens her kids that she folds. And then she immediately crumples and pivots to rationalizing Biff's behavior and blaming herself for her own abuse (in a way that is both HEARTBREAKING and also? surprisingly sympathetic and realistic for an 80's movie?). It's similar to the passivity we see in Twin Pines, but here we see exactly where it comes from. She doesn't have any way out so she has to pretend. It's the only way she can keep going. She has these flashes of rage but they're immediately snuffed out by despair and denial.

There's not a lot of talk about Lorraine and what there is tends to reduce her to "well she's Marty's mom" as if she's a boring character who doesn't have a lot going on. But even though most of her role in the movies has to do with her relationships with the various men in her life, those relationships are really interesting if you actually pay attention to them! She's not just (in the 80's) a wife and mother--she's someone who has a complex relationship with marriage and motherhood and the societal expectations surrounding them. She's not just (in the 50's) a vapid boy-crazy girl--she's doing her best to go after what she wants in a world that doesn't want her to (the fact that one of the things she wants turns out to be her time-traveling son from the future is unfortunate but not something she has any way of knowing!). She's stuck in a society that doesn't want women to be people, and she knows this, and because we see her across two different time periods and three different timelines you can watch how sometimes society grinds her down until she gives in and tries not to be a person. And also how, sometimes, she fights back.

[gowerhardcastle]

Hello, I'm a fellow IF fan waiting patiently for more updates atm. I'm wondering how you find the motivation to write so much and often?

Usually for even for creative writing, the best I can do is some paragraphs, then I just zone out for the rest of the day. Then I'll check my email then I realize it's actually late evening with only the same paragraphs.

---

I have a lot of answers to this question.  Specifically ten answers.

The first, biggest answer is that the words just well up in me, and if I don’t write, I feel antsy and malcontent.  I love writing, but if I have more than a few days where I’m not writing, I feel weird.  So this is definitely a weird-me-thing than anything I would advise anyone to acquire.

Second, when I write, I get in the zone and I just write and write for six or seven hours straight, and I’m having a great time the whole time.  I think my age does help me here because I didn’t grow up with the internet, and I have no real desire to keep checking stuff while I write.  I think that’s a huge benefit. 

I think if someone asked me if I recommend that they write like me, I would say hell no.  I know I’m a weird outlier.

Third, I blast music while I write.  This does a lot for my energy.

Fourth, coffee.  Lots of it.

Fifth, I type really, really fast.  I double space after periods because I learned to type on a typewriter.

Sixth, there’s a real cost to it.  I love playing computer games, and gaming in general, and writing just consumes that time, just devastates it.  If I’m not careful, it eats my reading time, but that I won’t allow.  But you have to be ok with the trade.

Seventh, I wake up quite early, before my family wakes up, just naturally.  I creep downstairs, take my iced latte from the fridge, which I made the night before, and write for hours while the world and the house is still.  This feels like time stolen.

Eighth, I have a really hard time resisting challenges I give myself.  I always have the urge to outdo myself, to make things more interesting, complex, bigger, fuller.  I see the perfect finished product, and I just want to get there, and I have a hard time saying “no!” to myself.  Quite the contrary.

Ninth, people who let me know that my games cheered them up on a hard day.  That they laughed so hard their gut hurts in spite of being on active deployment somewhere.  

That something I said helped them realize that they wanted to write, or that they could write and someone would read it.  That one of the relationships in my game helped them realize something really important about themself.  Or someone writes and says “I think about that one line from that game all the time,” or that they practiced and learned English from a story I wrote. 

I mean...that is unbearably humbling and kind of miraculous, and my impulse hearing that is to sit down and write more and connect with more people, because writing is very, deeply, an alone thing, and it requires that you sort of sequester yourself away from life for a long time.  It’s really hard! 

So making that connection with people is *incredibly* motivating.

Tenth, and this one is hard to articulate, so bear with me.  There’s a lot of junk in the world, and a lot of things masquerading as something wholesome and real that are quite the opposite.  A lot of this stuff is online, but also just out in the world.  I can’t do much about it, but to me, people who craft real words and read real words and care about good prose are maintaining some kind of small banner of resistance about what’s valuable and worth saving.  

When I sit down to write, I think about that. 

[stupidlittlespirit]

i've seen the "he'd never date a woman" thing with ford so much, which i think about a lot. like it's one thing to just headcanon him as gay but there are a lot of posts where internalized or blatant misogyny shine bright. one i saw straight up had multiple people going "he respects women too much to want to date/fuck them" like hello? do you realize what you are implying ab real women when you say that?

i'm not great at articulating my thoughts but i think it's especially prominent with ford because of his intelligence + unconventional demeanor. he's off-putting and a genius and didn't want to give up his work to settle down into a standard marriage with kids. women can't be weird or smart in the same way men can for example and all women want the typical white picket fence nuclear family american dream. therefore you are off your gourd if you think he'd ever want to be with a woman. so there’s that on top of the already rampant misogyny present in fandom spaces with shipping especially.

there's also the whole "gibe the oracle your phone number" / "i miss dimension 52" that could have some implications if you want but ig i can't blame people for forgetting jeselbraum because hirsch barely expands on her LOL. but basically it’s all up to interpretation and it really isn’t all that wild to think he could be attracted to women.

personally i just enjoy projecting my own sexuality onto him. “what gender are you attracted to?” don’t care. can i show you my isopod colonies. “how would you describe your sexual attraction?” uhhhhhhhhhhh (<- is probably demisexual)

So, I deleted my post because I felt like I was rehashing points I'd previously made a million times before, but I stand by it.

I want to address what you said and then I want to kind of go on a tangent (shocker, I know) about the interpretation of GF at large because I've been engaging with a lot of Lynch stuff recently, who we know was by and large the most influential person for Hirsch, and one of the biggest things around Lynch's work is the beauty of subjectiveness. I think Hirsch carries that legacy with him at the heart of his work.

So yeah, the comments about Ford 'respecting women too much' is insane. If anyone thinks that they are probably the kind of person who doesn't respect a woman anyway. If your hands sully the one you touch, perhaps your hands were not so clean to begin with, yknow? That's the vibe I always get with those kinds of comments.

Society approaches women so differently from men in this regard, as you said. Where a man is 'quirky' and 'cool', a woman is 'annoying' or 'trying too hard'. She suffers for her differences where as he profits for them. She can only commit the crime of being Cringe, and in my experience, people will forgive many things but never that.

There is certainly merit in the way in which a lot of people recognise that Ford is partial to things that are 'weird' or that are shunned by society, especially because of his hands, and that plays well into Queer culture. It's a feeling most of us (if not all of us) experience. So I can see where there connection comes and it's totally cool to hold that belief. Queer is BIG umbrella and I think he falls under it myself, what with the ace/aro stuff. We're given much more canon evidence of him being ace/aro, in fact, than of anything else. I maintain personally that canon Ford is asexual and aromantic, and that romance doesn't factor into his life in the way it does for 'normal' people. It's why when Bill mentions that quiz Ford does in his dreams in TBoB it makes me think of my own struggles with asexuality: "I'm not normal, everyone else is feeling this type of way and I'm feeling that type of way. There's something wrong with me. I'm weird. I need answers." It feels very much like Ford is attempting to understand that side of himself and is very afraid of the answer.

The Oracle stuff makes me so sad it was never expanded on more. I really love Jheselbraum and it felt like she was one of the first people that Ford met who was of higher intelligence than him, and who actually did just want to help. She extended an extreme kindness to him. Whether it was more than that doesn't even really matter. There was still a relationship formed there that can't be discounted. But again, it can be interpreted in lots of different ways.

This is the other thing. There's nothing wrong with projecting yourself onto your favourite character. We all do it. I do it. It's fun and it brings comfort. And that's okay! But that means we can all do it. So it's unfair for someone else to say "you're wrong for thinking XYZ about Ford" because we're all just kids in a sandbox playing house with these characters. You can't gatekeep someone else's enjoyment.

You can believe Ford is gay. You can believe Ford is ace. You can believe Ford is whatever you want him to be, but what you can't do is then rescind that privilege from someone else just because you don't like it or because it makes you feel better about yourself to punch down on someone else. People are entitled to their own interpretations of media, even if they make you feel uncomfortable or whatever.

Which brings us onto Lynch. Now, I'm not a huge surrealist fan, I like Lynch most for the person that he was (ugh I'm still so sad to type that). One of the biggest things about him was that he valued the intelligence of his audience and respected them enough to allow them the space to interpret his works as they saw fit. He never wanted to define his films in a way that would prevent another person from taking their own meaning from it. There was no definition, only feeling.

There's a clip of him being asked to expand on his meaning for one of his films, I forget which one, and he just replies "no". It's so fucking good because that, to me, is art. It is fundamentally subjective in its existence and the way I view something is not going to be the way someone else does, so why take that interpretation away from one to give to another just for their approval? We may align in thoughts but the way we process the media is going to be entirely different. Why? Because we're different people. Our experiences throughout our lives have informed the way we interact with things.

I think Alex Hirsch enjoys other people making their own interpretations of his work in a similar way. Just as Lynch does. Hirsch wants you, the audience, to derive personal meaning. He doesn't need (or even want) to tell you how to engage with the themes because why would he? It would only make him work harder to get a simpler point across and it would risk alienating parts of his audience. He wants the audience to connect and to find their own familiarities, and he respects his audience enough to give them the space to let them do that. He's often evasive when he's asked to tie things down firmly. To be honest, I think he should be braver in just saying "no, I don't want to answer that" sometimes. You can tell he wants to but he also wants to engage with people so it can be hard.

People are very desperate to want to have answers in black and white. They need things to be canon in order to feel vindicated, when in actual fact, an idea is just as legitimate when it comes to fiction. Fiction IS an idea. It isn't tangible and therefore cannot be quantified, so it can be interpreted however.

Anyway, by forcing your interpretation of the work onto others (ie. 'Ford would never', 'Stan would never' etc), I think you fundamentally misunderstand what the purpose of the work is. You're taking away the light of other people because you're scared yours doesn't shine bright enough. And you're scared because other people previously took your light away, but all you're doing is repeating the cycle and taking away from the rest of us.

Your ideas can coexist with others. No one is right and in that, everyone is right. Does that make sense? Idk.

I voice my opinions of disliking certain ways the fandom engages with elements of the show, but I don't think they have less right to have those ideas than I do to have my own. I interpret Bill as one way and someone else will interpret him another. That's okay. You're allowed to do that. But I don't think you're allowed to be actively vicious to others over it.

Engage with honesty and recognise that other people enjoys things in different ways, and it's okay not to control the narrative of that sometimes.

I have my criticisms of Hirsch but I also have a lot of love for the guy, and one of the biggest things I respect about him is him allowing us to draw our own beliefs. Do I think he could stand to do some things better? Yes. But that doesn't mean I don't love what I already have from his work.

I'm not sure if this makes sense, I'm having a bit of a Day, but I hope it at least reads well enough to convey my meaning.

[grozva]

depending on your music tastes, this oc question might be hard (or incredibly easy lmao).

is there a score or instrumental piece of music you associate with your oc(s)? if so, why? what about the music makes you think of them or feels like them? if you don't know enough scores/instrumentals to feel confident answering, then maybe a song where the lyrics may not match your oc/their story, but the energy, sound or vibes of the song does.

and if you earnestly don't have answers for the previous requests, throw any oc-relevant song at me. slap me with it like a mackerel.

AAAAAAAA HELLO <:0 thank you for the ask omg >:3cc there was gonna be much more cause i am. so very enthusiastic about music. but i ended up cutting a few characters out because the post would be 1) too long 2) take even longer to deliver. the hard part was not the music, but to explain my choices jksjlsds. cant believe that this turned out to be not so much about the characters themselves but about the places they're associated with. i dont know if i can properly articulate about what's in the music that makes me think of them so instead i said what the music makes me think of, if that works oTL

ENRI tmnt 2003, 2012

i chose her tracks to match the energy of her dreamwalking adventure. when she enters dreams as a silent explorer. never having had a dream of her own, she's gliding through dreams to see what goes on in other people's heads, guarding the peace of their mind when it's needed.

BUBBLE-outtake7, night lights, Debris, The Other Side of the Door, Nanachi in the Dark, Abyss of the Sea; some dreams are pure and affectionate, some are disturbing, dark and twisted or impossibly confusing and some have so much going on that its hard to keep track of them. she knows she doesn't belong here, but still enjoys observing and studying what she sees. she conceals her presence and keeps her intrusion into dream itself minimal but she isn't always successful, so occasional action is inevitable. sometimes she encounters nightmares, obviously. and more aggressive…? creepy? if that's the right word-- tracks, the ones that feel like there's something going on, are here to reference exactly that.

if that's any help at all, i associate her with alice in the wonderland and hollow knight in the hallownest (mainly dream nail related elements).

MEDUSA tmnt 2003

the scores i picked for her are meant to reflect the feeling/mood/energy of her lair. not an entirely creepy stone statue garden or snake nest one could expect from a medusa inspired character, but a part of that vibe is present. it's located not too far from underground city that we see in episodes 13-15 of season 1 (and then some more in season 2 and 3) so expect crystals and bioluminescence. while there's an eerie and tense feeling to it, it can feel cozy and tranquil as well, if you're a friend of hers.

Lady of Gorgon, Kyne's Peace, JUROIMOH MUTATION, Crystal Peak, The First Layer, Path of Desolation;

to clarify, she's not supposed to be outright hostile, it's just that she will respond exactly with the attitude you give her. she is rarely genuinely interested in other people and avoids anyone who lurks nearby. especially those who venture deeper into that part of the caves where she resides, so usually such visitors get scared away if they stay for too long. they are in her territory, and she wants to make sure they realize it. you can't see her but she always knows when you're there.

[otsukare-katsukare]

Hiii since you said you were interested in what others think about the whole Sami/Bron/MITB situation.... I have thoughts and it's a bit much to write in the comments so, Here goes... (this isn't even all the thoughts BTW 😂

@thesmallworldofsamizayn I got to agree a bit there, with your statement of Bron being unstoppable and Sami being the underdog, as well as getting sick of the comments being made about Sami being the Champ. Usually I don't really give into or pay much attention to all the talk, and if I do, it only makes me want to fight harder, but I'll be honest; this time round, Sami doesn't NEED the belt...

He's good enough on his own and he's proven it time and time again. It was a nice icing on the cake type situation (having the belt), but, the point is that there is and was plenty of delicious cake already there! (if that makes any sense) So bottom line, he'll survive without it, he can survive without it. If anything, it'll probably light a bigger fire under him, reigniting that fiery passion of his. The one that keeps drawing us to him and into his world.

Honestly, this is going to sound so bad, but I won't be overly upset if/when Sami drops the belt (note I too am an avid Sami fan and I'd be a bit sad, but not devastated). To me (personally), before he won the IC championship, and even though he had more loses than wins, he was more intriguing to watch. Idk why, and may be it's just me atm, after that long drawn out (weeksss of) Alpha Academy saga - may be that's what's got me feeling this way fn...

A few weeks ago I would have said that they are building up to Chad winning it, but now that Bron and Sheamus are involved who knows the hands the title will eventually fall into. Also, it's going to be hard to get Sami to drop the belt this quick (even though it's been what? A couple of months now already?) when it clearly (you can SEE it) means so much to him... It'll be hard but they'll eventually have to do it. So may be MITB will be it.

Also got to agree a bit here with @shanie too, I would love to see Sami get involved in the BL saga and if there's anyone who believes in redemption, always seeing the good in people, fighting for the greater good, and what's good and right AND against all odds, it's Sami Zayn. He's got the innate need to rescue people out of toxic situations and to fix said situation. So he would definitely fit the narrative if they decide to insert him into it.

BUT the big issue is with the fans. Again. There's quite certainly going to be a LOT of hate if this happens. I'm already hearing rumblings of people unhappy with just the mere thought of it. Saying he's not family so why is he involving himself in it, as much as that's true, have they completely forgotten that he in fact was a THE 'honorary Uce'? The closest an 'outsider' has ever gotten to the family or being 'family'? Heck he almost became 'Sami Uso'.

So in the end people can and will make up their own minds and there nothing anyone can do about it. And also in the end each to their own I guess... (BTW people need to chill out and remember this is fiction NOT real life 😭)

Anywayy just a few of my thoughts....sorry about the long winded answer 😂😅

(no pressure to to respond to this BTW 😊

🐨

hello! thank you very much for these detailed thoughts. youve actually articulated a lot of what i was feeling. first, the fact that a) i dont like seeing fans bitch about sami and b) i especially dont like it when they're kind of right. it is someone else's turn, and maybe yeah that person should have been chad. i was more than ready for it to be chad at catc personally. im not too mad that it's gone in a different direction cause it does actually look like they have other storyline ideas for chad now, but as far as sami's concerned, yeah the belt isn't doing anything more for him now than it has till this point. it's weird to think he hasn't held a title as a face since the nxt championship 10 years ago. but thinking back on that, and everything since, everything he's been so good at - yeah, im not sure that long term champion is the right look on him! he won it in 2014 and lost it devastatingly to kevin 2 months later, and i would not have wanted that to happen any other way.

thing is, i will be sad if sami loses to bron at mitb. especially if he loses clean, not unlike he did to kevin all those years ago, futilely continuing to kick out long after he should have quit until he's physically incapable of doing so. what's maybe harder to explain as a wrestling fan is that i want to be sad about sami zayn. i like those heavy emotions, i like feeling like my favourite character can't catch a break. that's the entire essence of the underdog appeal. further to that, this is kind of the state im most used to and therefore most comfortable in when it comes to characters im invested in. in the words of mitski, i bet on losing dogs. and sami winning was an incredible feeling and so deserved, but i really don't mind him losing! he's both more compelling overall and gets more interesting stories, and just inspires so much sympathy in that position. (look i also like seeing him in pain i'll say it. he clearly likes acting being in pain just as much so everyone's happy i think)

then there's the bloodline and yeah, i'd sit up to watch sami back with those guys especially roman. im apparently one of the few people who really doesn't want roman to come back as a face no matter how much the fans cheer him, but if he is going to have a face turn, it's got to involve sami god damn it. i was just talking with @milk-crater about this, how it makes more sense with sami being a bit more removed, because that makes him a better person to forgive roman, and to be his moral guide. also it's sami, if anyone in all pro wrestling would reach out a hand to a genuienly remorseful roman reigns it's him. all that and the two just have such great chemistry, and it was the baseline for everything that made the honorary uce arc so fantastic and beloved, and it'd be nice to come back to some of that. maybe show these smarks what they've forgotten about why sami is the absolute best again.

thanks again for hopping in my inbox and never worry about being long winded. anyone who's ever been in a conversation with me knows im the last person to take issue with that!

[machihunnicutt]

[falls out of baby it's you finale] Hello I'm Here To Ask You To Please Talk Some About The Extended Knight Metaphor I'm Feeling Super Normal About ("There he was, a knight in armor, lingering at the front steps, haunted by closed doors.") PLUS ⭐ a selection of your choice (if you'd like!!!)

YEAH OF COURSE ! long thoughts under the cut

I think BJ as The Knight works in a lot of ways for his thoughts/feelings/position throughout baby it's you. In flashbacks, I see him presenting this very protective/loyal/rigid/chivalrous persona to mask his insecurities/discomfort he feels trying to fit himself into straight manhood (and fatherhood & marriage). For example, with Peg (in chapter 4):

Alone together. The phrase rattled around in his head. He’d been alone so long that he didn’t know how else to be. Every time he reached for her he felt selfish. He felt like he’d grafted himself to her, or that they were passing through each other. He felt like he wasn’t supposed to feel so intensely. He felt like the words husband and wife should come more easily. He felt like he could sit there on the church steps for hours, rubbing her feet. “Should I carry your shoes? Or are you going to put them back on?” he said. She laughed, chin dipping. “Carry them. Just don’t step on my toes,” she said.

The attachment/devotion/service & the intensity of his feelings despite his lack of attraction to her...carrying her shoes, idk. BJ's internal conflicts, for me, always come back to the tension between who he is, who he feels he should be, and how he can reconcile & articulate his identity after repressing everything for so long. He's always coming back to these questions of duty & the roles he plays in other peoples' lives.

And, where you point it out in chapter 12:

“Do you let anything get under there?” Hawkeye muttered. “Under my armor?” BJ said, eyebrows raising. He could play along. He was good at it. He was better at it with Hawkeye than with anyone.  “I wouldn’t be much of a knight if I did, would I?” BJ said. “You’re no knight,” Hawkeye said, yawning. “You wound me,” BJ said, letting the smile win over his face.  “See, if you were a knight, it would take more to wound you. They’re stoic,” Hawkeye said. “I’m stoic. People tell me I’m very stoic,” BJ said, though his tone contradicted his point. “Hmm,” Hawkeye said.

I think it's significant that Hawkeye immediately sees through BJ as The Knight, and more so that he's interested in what's under the armor/persona. For Hawk, it's not about what BJ does for him...he loves BJ for who he is. (He's warm, under all the armor!! He's easily wounded!!)

BJ in 1970 is certainly in a less precarious position than he is in the 40s/50s, but I think he still plays The Knight. Particularly in the scenes in Le Cafe, he's always got an eye on Hawk (protecting him from his own actions? protecting him from Trapper? serving him by fulfilling all his wishes wrt the wedding??) Like Hawk describes in this bit in chapter 10:

Hawkeye thought about what Beej said at the bar. He thought about his hand on his waist, steadying him, holding him too tight. He thought about the space he’d given. He thought about BJ hanging in the margins: on the couch in the living room with a magazine, pretending not to eavesdrop, watching Hawk’s face in the bar, keeping track of Trapper’s comments at dinner, pacing, hiding his hands, talking a minute to cool off, managing his temper like he managed difficult surgical cases. It was like there was an invisible boundary between him and Beej. BJ always knew where the lines were, and had been trying, ardently, not to cross them.

I wanted it to take a while for Hawk to notice the way BJ positions himself the whole Vegas trip (and how hard it's been for him). BJ The Knight is always on the outside. He's got a job to do. He can't get too close. He can't get inside. He's got to be stoic.

AND, I wanted to use Knighthood to connect BJ & Erin. They really don't get much time together at all in baby it's you, but I wanted there to still be clear similarities in their thought patterns. She takes after him in good ways and in bad ways. They're both very hard on themselves. They both wrestle with these questions of belonging & duty & bravery & purpose. In chapter 11:

Erin had never gotten so much sun in her life. The summer’s activities had bleached her hair and tanned her arms. She’d be unrecognizable at Berkeley, come fall, she realized. It was a thought that made her insides squirm. It was like she’d been picking at a scab all summer, to get to the fresh, new, pink skin underneath. She was about to cast off this wild, reckless, ragtag version of herself. They couldn’t stay kids forever. “Why are you so afraid of what Fern thinks?” Benny said. “Don’t say it like that. It’s not as if I…well, it isn’t like I’m afraid,” Erin said. “It sounds like you are,” Benny said. “Well, I’m not,” Erin said, sharply. 

I like this idea of the dual purpose of armor for Erin & BJ: protecting/serving/being brave for others while simultaneously shielding/masking/hiding themselves from the judgement of others. Erin's picking at the mask/armor like a scab...she's got to cast it off in order to be herself, but letting other people under the armor comes at a price.

And, like Hawk, Benny sees through the persona (while at the same time understanding its function for Erin). In chapter 12:

“I’ve been acting like it’s us against the world. I never stopped to think about how that weighs on you,” Benny said. Erin sat up.  “You were right, though. I want to be the kind of person that you think I am,” Erin said. “You are,” Benny said. He shook his head vigorously. “There’s no doubt in my mind that you are.”

Benny believes Erin is as brave as she pretends to be. He still knows she's pretending.

Also...motorcycle/bike/noble steed??? The Hunnicutts are Knight coded.

[penvisions]

Hello Dev 💛🥹

How are you doing? I hope honestly that you’re doing good because you deserve it. 🫶🏻🫶🏻🫶🏻

So I’ve made it my mission to spread some of my love and appreciation to all my favorite writers (which you are one of clearly) for the work u put in creating stories that make me very happy. I literally have a list full of names, that sounds crazy, but I promise it’s nothing weird I’m just trying to keep track 🫠😅

Before I get into my mission, I have to say something else. I think it’s really fucking terrible of people to steal writers work and then go around and trying to manipulate the writer to believe they actually stole first like the audacity to gaslight wtf. I’ve seen one too many times that an incredible writer gets their hard work just copied and there’s so little you can do about that and then the people who steal are so fucking mean. I get it writing is hard and sometimes you look at other peoples stuff to see how they write to get creative juices flowing but you don’t just straight up copy it I mean, I would ask for writing advice or idk, anything but plagiarism….there’s so many people who love that writers work and they will notice when that writing shows up somewhere else and then you have a lot of people on your ass rightfully so for stealing. And now that I’ve actually started to write something myself, I feel like I can understand it a little more because if I just try to imagine that somebody would take this story and try to sell it as their own when it is literally my story like actually my story, this is my life experience written in a story and you’re trying to sell that as your own, I would go ballistic I would, I would be very mad. Let’s just say that. 💀

Dev I’m truly so sorry that happened to you 💛

Well, enough of that let’s get into the good stuff 😚😚

I am pretty sure I found my way here because somebody else (I don’t remember who anymore🫣) rb your story “by the grit of Sandpaper” and it absolutely peaked my interest. I mean basically anything with Joel Miller peaks my interest, but you know. 😉💛 Sadly though I did not get around to reading it yet. I’ve kind of also been putting it off because I want to read it and then immediately let u know what I think. If the memory is still fresh, then my thoughts are much better articulated if that makes sense. Here’s the thing I’m trying to write my own first story and simultaneously i have a lot on my other list of stuff that I really want to read or reread and it’s a little overwhelming, but I’m trying to work my way through that and let me tell you when I get to your stories you will definitely see me scream in a very loving way for sure. 😅💛

I think you’ll probably see me scream even before that because one of my other mission is to engage more and be more mindful of the fact that there are people writing the stuff that I love, so please know that you should never feel pressured or forced to get a chapter or story out as quick as possible. I will wait however much time it takes because in the end, it’s absolutely worth it.

Ok one last thing (this is already so long I’m sorry 🥺) I know everyone on here is literally a person like me and everyone is just writing their silly little stories but I look up to so many and it feels like interacting with a celebrity, I hope that doesn’t sound weird. I might also feel like that because I’m a very secluded person like I talk to 2 people in my day-to-day life, I definitely talk more to my plants than anyone else 😅 🫣🥴

Dev u made my morning with making us mutuals I squealed like a little girl seeing the notification, does that make us friends (?). I mean the love for Pedro already connects us🥹

I would love to know, since ur a cat mom, what kind of cats u have and how many 😍

And since u like to bake I’m interested to know what’s ur favorite thing to bake 👩‍🍳🧁🥯🎂🍰🍪🍩

I hope u have fantastic day and take care of yourself Dev 💛🫶🏻

i love that you've made it a personal mission to brighten everyone's days with your lovely self!! only a truly good person would even think to do it and i love you for that. the discourse has been insane this year and trying to combat it is an admirable notion, thank you for your kind words on the really shitty instance of my fics getting stolen not once but twice, really ♡

take your time working through your TBR, bb, i know mine is about a mile long lol. fics seem to call on us when we're ready and in a good place to accept them, so i trust in the waiting process c: i

i hope youre writing is going well and that the words are flowing, you got this!! i can't wait to read what you have to share with us

of course we're friends, bb, we always were even if we just didn't know it yet ♡♡

i've got four fur babies! two tabby brothers, a flully void, and a fluffy tortie, they are my world even if they don't let me sleep much these days as they get used to their new home

and my absolute faaaavorite thing to bake is cookies! they're so versatile and there's so many choices for fillings from chocolate chips to macadamia nuts c:

hope the days are good to you, ily ♡

[brionysea]

https://www.tumblr.com/foodiewithdahoodie/716996704083361792 this post is more about familial mlvn parallels but it made me think of the max/Mike curse parallels, esp considering that what’s happening to Max after the fact is a vision and I’m like….kind of connecting that to what happened around Mike in season 4 being a manifestation but I Can’t Articulate it. Anywho yeah thought u would enjoy

UMMMM HELLO???? I AM LOOKING DIRECTLY AT IT (x)

i was thinking about what a pre-season 4 mike's vecna visions would look like recently, and that scene with el would literally fit right in. his girlfriend who he cares for but Not Like That trying to pry an answer out of him about why he can't say he loves her? getting defensive and making her cry? having to go against the friends don't lie rule to protect himself? like. i am... hhhh no thoughts just chaos. all you'd have to do is tweak it a bit so that el Inexplicably Knows Everything and hates him for it, being representative of his own negative thoughts towards himself, and it would fit right in with the canon visions from season 4 (mike mouthing off included, because let's be real, he'd do that to vecna's face too). leaving it to play out the way it did plays more into the advantage of a subtle slow burn so that he can't figure out anything's going on too soon, which, if you're going to mess with mike wheeler's head, you need because he's just too smart

california was kind of a nightmare scenario for mike before anything even went "wrong". he had to pretend to be someone he's not, somehow try to be normal with both el and will in the same place, and then el gets hurt and it's kind of his fault ("if you say so" before the music gets turned off and el gets knocked down, which still makes me lose my MIND), then the fight with will, and el schmacking a bully after the boys were unable to track her down fast enough to prevent that and all the drama afterwards... dude's not having a good time. he had no power there, which is the fastest way to get to him, as seen by his rambling about how useless he is and the clear impact that sense of powerlessness (very ironic) has on his mental state. and i'm staring so hard at how weird everything at rinkomania (rink of madness) was, and how disconnected our three characters' perspectives seem to be from each other, and how mike looked confused by will's version (aka our version) of events but was too busy trying to run away from that confrontation of having to vocalise his own feelings to even clarify what he was confused by or what his version of events looked like, which brings what they're both experiencing into question (mike not even looking in will's direction when he rolled his eyes but somehow seeing it anyway — what else aren't they showing us about mike's version by hiding behind will's?). there are those behind the scene photos floating around of noah schnapp at rinkomania in will's desert outfit. idk, i don't trust that place at all

when it comes to season 4 being a manifestation, it's like... this is just my interpretation, but it's pretty clear to me that the curse would be mike's excuse to literally face his demons. it was the Main Event. even when he was shipped away from hawkins and separated from that plot device, he was still trying to sort everything out in his head, which would've ironically been much easier for him to do if he was in a situation like max's — he gives me "only i'm allowed to hate myself, if anyone else does it i'm throwing hands" vibes. but mike still had some influence over things going on in lenora (like the aforementioned "if you say so" demonstrated by angela just ceasing to matter at all after mike called her a nobody) and in the general... area, idk american geography, like suzie's house and the pen with the coordinates and wherever the nina bunker was. i haven't thought about how argyle and the pizza chain plays into this but they might be manifested too (something about the restaurant expanding into nevada and how impressively wide mike's range is —there's no way that russian prison's real — and argyle as like the one person in season 4 just telling someone to "not lie"). el says "i'm real" at the very end of the season when she's with max, which makes me question if she went from "not real" to "real" during her season 4 side plot instead of in season 3. it would make sense since she really starts heading into her independence era once she leaves brenner behind and most likely after the end of season drama with mike, and max and dustin's similar journeys from an Idea of independence (while still circling mike/the party) to Acting on that independence (dustin getting his own side plot after breaking away from the party and max talking about free will while going against mike's wishes) seem to span 2 seasons as well

it's fascinating to me that even with mike as the lynchpin to all this, the main event doesn't follow him. it stays in hawkins. it's not even like the curse is a thing, and the curse also follows mike. it leaves him alone, even with the symptoms that did follow him. it (supposedly) never goes past a nosebleed at dinner and a headache at suzie's house. is that because he's made a mental connection between all his inner angst and his hometown (the smalltown boy agenda), or is it just a result of trying to sideline himself because he thinks he's unimportant? is it because there's no point in opening a gate with his death if he's all the way across the country? wouldn't that be better for vecna's plans of remaking the world? is he just not as willing to put the byers (including el) at risk as he is the hawkins NPCs? or was he actually losing his mind all season and we just didn't know because his perspective was cut off from us?

[onewomancitadel]

Hello! I've read the majority of your Cindemption posts and they are indeed magnificent. I even read thru all of the Knightfall ones, even tho I, myself, am not super into the pairing? I don't hate it by any means, I just can't really see Cinder with anyone romantically. If by the end of the series she manages to just accept and reciprocate basic platonic affection with literally anyone, it'll feel like a monumental moment considering that to get to that point, she has to unlearn every horrible lesson that her life has taught her. Imo this is plenty. Obviously, everyone is entitled to their own interpretation; I'm not shitting on Knightfall at all. I just don't see it happening. From what I'm gathering, the first two who'll play the biggest role in Cinder's redemption would be Emerald, Mercury and, most importantly, Ruby.

I really can't see Jaune not only getting over the fact that Cinder killed Pyrrha, someone he cared so deeply about. Nor can I see him getting over her tormenting him at Haven, impaling Weiss just to spite him. Or...forcing the situation that resulted in him killing Penny. That's a lot to overcome. And not only just to overcome it but to then fall in love with the one who caused all of this pain seems like a stretch.

Anyway, my question is this: how would you like a redemption arc for Cinder to look were she not to be romantically linked to Jaune?

Thanks for reading my posts.

I don't hate it by any means, I just can't really see Cinder with anyone romantically. If by the end of the series she manages to just accept and reciprocate basic platonic affection with literally anyone, it'll feel like a monumental moment considering that to get to that point, she has to unlearn every horrible lesson that her life has taught her. Imo this is plenty.

I mean... that's because you feel that way. You haven't really provided why. This is my problem with this kind of analysis because it's just so. You haven't explained to me how Cinder should get to the point of expressing platonic affection, you've just decided it's impossible and will be important if she does because it's hard enough. You haven't provided why and how her deep emotional wounds need healing. How is her redemption arc supposed to represent healing? You're effectively saying her redemption will be half-arsed.

I don't entertain this style of analysis. I don't really care whether you personally ship Knightfall. I'm making an argument on character, plot, and theme.

'Imo this is plenty' How cruel. How tragically cruel.

Cinder deserves love and lots of it and a magical, magical amount to help save the world. This is a story about fairytales (that are real) feat. gunswords where helping the sad, evil bad witch is probably part of the ultimate narrative resolution. Magic is real and potent. You need to think bigger.

I just don't see it happening.

I don't care. I really sincerely don't care. If you're going to send me essays on Tumblr, at least provide some reasonable arguments for me to address. Your personal feelings are not one of them, unless it were actually an interesting question of how to address/articulate the root of this type of objection (which I have talked about in the past), but you're not asking a question here.

From what I'm gathering, the first two who'll play the biggest role in Cinder's redemption would be Emerald, Mercury and, most importantly, Ruby.

Not sure where you read that, since I never said that, I've said that Jaune is part of what gets Cinder to Ruby (and likely Oscar gets Ruby to Cinder. I say this in part because I think the anima/animus has a role in helping confront the Shadow, we see this with other romances already). If you're reading someone else's posts, you'll have to provide context, though I don't like publically shredding into someone else's work. But I do disagree. If Emerald and Mercury could have saved Cinder, why didn't it happen sooner? Why didn't she let them in? But it's just so, I suppose.

I really can't see Jaune not only getting over the fact that Cinder killed Pyrrha, someone he cared so deeply about.

Again, feelings based, so no argument from me. If you've read my Knightfall posts arguing that Pyrrha's death is way of connecting their characters, there's no point in repeating myself, and I can't imagine you want to read my refutations anyway.

Nor can I see him getting over her tormenting him at Haven, impaling Weiss just to spite him.

'Tormenting' him at Haven. Lol, okay, you're just being disingenuous now. Sorry but this is just your interpretation and to add to that the whole Haven sequence is Jaune being taught the lesson heroic self-sacrifice is NOT the way to go and he does actually matter so maybe look closer at what's happening with his whole Cinder interaction. If you read narrative so flatly don't bother wasting my time with it. Seriously I don't know why you thought any of this was worth including.

Or...forcing the situation that resulted in him killing Penny. That's a lot to overcome. And not only just to overcome it but to then fall in love with the one who caused all of this pain seems like a stretch.

Again, feelings based. Not sure how I can refute your points with something I haven't already said if you're claiming to have read my posts. You haven't refuted why Jaune and Cinder being connected through Penny will be meaningful for their character devleopment. That's my personal springboard of analysis... nevermind literally everything else I list in my Knightfall masterpost, but whatever.

Anyway, my question is this: how would you like a redemption arc for Cinder to look were she not to be romantically linked to Jaune?

Cinder would not be redeemed. That's your answer. I don't know why you wasted your time with the rest of this ask, because you could have just asked this question and I might've even enjoyed answering it in more detail.

It will not happen. There is no way to get Ruby to Cinder. There is no way for Cinder to let anyone in. If friendship and family are rejected for her by the narrative then it's not happening. I have already outlined comparatives with other redemption arcs of people who are able to touch the heart of the villainous, with special cases like Emerald-Mercury and Oscar-Hazel. No one but Oscar could have helped Hazel. It had to be him.

You do not get the Ozlem fix. You do not pass go. Cinder will never let anyone else in if her worldview is never redeemed. If no one is willing to unconditionally help her in spite of everything she has done with absolutely no concessions it's not happening. I might make it sound small but Cinder's redemption arc is actually a major structural deal and takes a lot of work to get there, that's why we've had so many (and partly because it's a bit of an anime trope). You might gloss over what the redemption arc looks like but I won't. You need to find what made her the way she is and help her confront it and fix it, not run.

You need someone who is set up for it and intimately connected to her through the things she has done (Pyrrha and Penny). You need someone whose direction in the narrative is not totally clear (because how is the healer supposed to be a killer? And kill Cinder?). Sure, I can imagine you're preparing yourself to send another screed that it could just be platonic, but this is a story grounded in Ozlem's love story. There is no reason to explore uncompromising unconditional no-holds barred love if it's not romantic, sorry. This is capital R romance. And to be quite frank if platonic love could've saved Cinder sooner, why didn't Emerald do it? Why? Why would they not set that up?

So many have tried to argue that Cinder's redemption arc was rejected by V8 because the power of 'friendship' and working with people could not save her therefore it's never going to happen. That Emerald and Mercury have both left her behind. That she has fallen deeper into evil. That she has no family that could help her like Weiss. I reject that.

I appreciate that you've read my Cindemption posts, but you seem to be missing my analysis of the character wounds in the story (going all the way back to Ozlem, but Jaune and Cinder too) and the role of reciprocal development in redemption and, you know, romantic love and love that endures as a thematically powerful idea.

These are not simply my shipping whims. I'm not just saying shit for the sake of it.

I'm not conceding that there's a way to write Cinder's redemption without romance: I'm saying that if there is no romance then she is definitely, certainly not getting a redemption.

[lovebecomeshim]

hello! your zutara posting today has finally motivated me to ask this question because I came to atla very late(last year, to be specific) and I Love It Very Much but am 1000% out of the loop as far as why what remains of fandom (at least that I've seen among my friends) is so very strongly zutara. I'm not opposed to it per se I just don't really know what has driven it to apparently be such a popular ship? can you help me understand and maybe convert me a little bit?

Hey!! Your ICON! :D I can try but I’m not sure how coherent I’ll be; however I AM sure someone a lot more competent will be willing to add to this. Either way, I’m glad you asked because my plan was to drag down as many people as possible with me.

*smacks the hood of zutara* this baby can fit so much mutual love and support!

This got so long, I’m so sorry. I don’t know how to put it under a cut on mobile and it already got deleted once so I’m scared to mess with it lol. Moving on.

I’m gonna start this with a disclaimer that im on mobile so formatting is tricky and I’m also really new to atla in that I only completed my first watch through in like 2019??? So some of my info is all just based on what I’ve picked up from Discourse 👀 so anyway the sparknotes version: zutara was wildly popular from the beginning. To the point where the atla crew internally disagreed on which ship should be endgame. (Ex. Bryke [showrunners] asked the writers to rewrite The Southern Raiders to make Zuko seem less ideal for Katara than Aang [which failed, depending on who you ask]; the animation team purposefully created a visual parrallel between Oma and Shu in the Cave of Two Lovers and Zuko and Katara in the catacombs under Ba Sing Se in the Crossroads of Destiny; etc.)

The ship was popular enough that Bryke actually chose to display zk fanart at a con for the sole purpose of mocking the fans, but that’s neither here nor there. The entire episode Ember Island Players, while a love letter to/parody of the whole show, was an opportunity to address zutara’s viability as a canon pairing (while, again, mocking zutaras for romanticizing that catacombs scene). Point is! It’s always been popular but with it not being endgame, there’s got to be something that’s given it staying power.

And that’s honestly got to do with three things: their dynamic, thematic cohesion, and potential.

(You know what... you know what, it’s four things. The fourth is they’re so aesthetically pleasing together and individually. Like, they’re just good looking people [specifically when they’re grown but they’re also cute kids] and that absolutely doesn’t hurt) (but it’s not the Point, it’s just nice to point out sometimes)

The dynamic is hard to get into without also looking at the canon pairings, but I think I can do that without unnecessary bashing. It’s just that part of the magic of zutara is really highlighted by what they give to each other that their other relationships don’t.

First off, it’s classic enemies to (would be) lovers. The absolute truest form of it. It’s not too different from how CS started out: a rogue antagonist with a job to do—but no personal vendetta against the future love interest—who is deeply and emotionally invested in his personal storyline (revenge/redemption) with little regard for how it effects other people after his entire life and genuine good nature are marred by suffering, and a fierce warrior girl with a strong moral compass and her own personal investment in stopping him (protect her family and save the world doing it). Obviously frustration and animosity grew between them by the nature of them being on opposing sides, but that just lends itself to the sweetness of their later reconciliation.

The thing is that while they’re wildly different on the surface (he’s a hot-headed prince of a fascist regime who is trying to capture the Avatar to please his father; she’s a nurturing daughter of the chief who is trying to protect and train the Avatar in order to topple his father’s throne) they find out that they have so much more in common both in their experiences and their personalities.

(What follows is an excessive use of the word “both” and I’m sorry about that)(I can edit it. I can do that. That IS an option............)

They both have an innate sense of justice that they are determined to see done (zuko, at the war meeting, sticking up for the Earth Kingdom kid when the guards torment his family, choosing not to steal from the pregnant couple despite his circumstances, abiding by his word to leave the SWT should Aang come willingly, etc.; katara, literally.... at any point). They both have pretty one-track minds at accomplishing certain goals once they’ve put their mind to it, regardless of a lack of support in that endeavor (it goes without saying I guess, but zuko’s entire hunt; katara’s determination to get the earth benders to fight back, her determination to absolutely destroy Pakku until he agrees to teach her, etc.). They both lost their mothers at young ages. Their worlds are war-torn and traumatizing to them both, if in different ways, but that ultimately forces them to grow up too quickly to be wholly independent individuals. They both have issues with their fathers (for WILDLY different reasons, but). They both hold extreme prejudices that they need to learn to overcome (which ties into thematic cohesion)(bit like Lizzie and Darcy in that way but magnified by a million). They’re both extremely emotional and empathetic—which can and often does result in loud outbursts. Katara’s a bit better adjusted and can temper her anger for longer than S1 Zuko can, but they both feel that anger deeply and have no compunctions expressing it (Katara is, usually, more justified, particularly in S1. Again, S1 Zuko is severely maladjusted but at the point when they could’ve feasibly become a couple, he’s so much better off with the way he carries himself). They both struggle with feelings of inferiority in their bending abilities when confronted with prodigal benders like Aang and Azula, but have the work ethic required to double down and become two of the most powerful benders in the three remaining nations. This is a little more minor but it is a parrallel that appeals to some shippers that they both have these alter egos in the Painted Lady (notably fire nation coded) and the Blue Spirit (water tribe coded) that are pretty different from who they are day-to-day and are useful in accomplishing a purpose that they as themselves cannot.

(I’m.... I just realized that this could potentially get very long. Should I have made a slide show with bullet points??????)

Anyway, similar. I know there’s more but there’s literally so much to love about zutara that I’ll drive myself a little crazy trying to compile all the ways they’re similar. (Just gonna say that at this exact moment I went back to add more similarities.... so okay then)

Once they’ve reconciled, we see how all of these things only lend themselves to a deeper intimacy together than they share with literally anyone else. There’s a steady partnership that positions them as the mom/dad of the gaang, while also providing the support necessary to allow the other to not have to carry so much responsibility. A lot of zutaras will point out how zuko is actually depicted doing the more domestic chores that are normally relegated to Katara once he joins the gaang, since the others in the group are two 12-year-olds and sokka. The one that sticks out the most is how he makes tea for the group and then serves them, while Katara is able to just relax with her friends around the fire. Fanon expands upon this a lot to Zuko helping with the laundry or the cooking or whatever else needs doing since he, as a once-refugee, is used to doing his own domestic tasks. Before Zuko joined, Katara was the one mothering everyone, sewing for them, cooking for them, etc. She’s always tending to the needs of the group, and that includes emotionally. She does the emotional labor for the gaang 99% of the time, but when she’s the one falling apart, she’s usually doing it alone and without the comfort that she normally provides for others. Until Zuko. And that’s before they’re even friends.

Which is WHY people romanticize the catacombs of Ba Sing Se so much. Katara is verbally attacking Zuko out of her own righteous anger but also her own prejudice when Zuko, surprisingly, chooses to be vulnerable with her. He’s been on a journey that’s opened his eyes a bit, but he’s never actively chosen to expose the rawest parts of his past to anyone. But for some reason he chooses to do that with Katara of all people. While she’s yelling at him. He sees her humanity, and for once can look past his prejudice and empathize with her. And this time, when she breaks down, she gets to be comforted. Katara normally talks about her mother when she’s trying to explain to someone else that she sees and understands they’re pain, as a form of comfort to them. Here, Zuko uses the exact same tactic. He sees her and he understands. And for zuko? He’s not being shut down. He’s allowed to articulate his pain regarding his mother without being ignored and made to internalize it, and he’s allowed to process how he feels about his scar out loud without being told that he deserved it. And then he lets her touch his scar, something we’ve seen him actively avoid before. He’s completely open to her and she’s completely open to him and all it took was one five minute conversation. She was about to use the little bit of Spirit water that she had, that she was saving for something Important, to heal the scar that still daily causes him pain just because they had, somehow, connected.

Plus there’s the whole parallel to the star-crossed lovers forbidden from one another, a war divides their people—

And then zuko messes up, he regresses, he gets what he wants and he HATES it. And the sense of justice he had as a child has been restored to him against his will and he can’t think of anything he wants to do more than the Right Thing, so he joins team avatar. Before he does that though, we get to see his relationship with Mai, which is where comparison really comes in. And what we see is Zuko, fresh off of his encounter with Katara in the catacombs, trying to be emotionally honest with Mai... and getting shut down and dismissed. Which is just how Mai is and it’s fine, but not for Zuko. Still, he keeps trying, and he keeps getting ignored or scoffed at or yelled at. Which is really a larger symbol for how he doesn’t fit in his old life anymore, but again that’s about thematic cohesion. He tries to articulate his anxieties about returning home, he tries to make romantic gestures, he tries to explain how morally conflicted he’s feeling—and Mai diverts to some kind of physical affection to shut him up and a parting comment that is pretty much always, in essence, “I don’t wanna talk about this.” So they don’t. On the other hand, once zuko and Katara are friends, we see him again emotionally distraught and caught up in his anxieties about facing Iroh, and it’s Katara who comes to him and listens to him and comforts and encourages him.

Similarly, we have Aang clamming up and getting uncomfortable whenever Katara shows any negative emotion, usually resulting in him making excuses or running away. Or, in the case of the Southern Raiders, lecturing her on how she needs to just let go of her anger about her mother’s murder. People have talked this episode to death and usually better than I ever could, so imma... keep it brief. There’s a serious disconnect between Aang and Katara in his ability to empathize with Katara and her needs that has her tamping down her vulnerability and amping up her anger. He tells her that he was able to forgive his people’s genocide and appa’s kidnapping (petnapping? Theft??), which is blatantly not true but also not an entirely equal parrallel to Katara’s situation, and continues making these little remarks throughout the episode. But it’s Zuko that Katara opens up to. It’s with him that she’s able to talk about the most traumatic day of her life, and it’s with him that she’s able to get the closure she needs, cementing their bond as friends and partners. This disagreement between Aang and Katara is then... never resolved. They just never bring it up and hear what the other is saying.

There’s a fic called The Portraits of Ember Island that has a line that so completely sums up the heart of the matter for why people love their dynamic. For context, zuko has woken up early to help Katara with the cooking and they spend the whole time just letting one another talk, and zuko stops to ask why she always just lets him talk. And so she stops to ask why he’s always helping, and it goes as follows:

There’s just... so much mutual support! Trust! Intimacy!! And it just continues like that from the Southern Raiders on, listening to each other, advising each other, watching each other’s backs! And then! Literally saving each other’s lives!! I will never be over the last Agni kai. Not ever. Zuko may have been willing to jump in front of lightning for anyone, but he actually did it for Katara. And in a show, that’s the thing that really matters. It’s a fulfilled trope usually exclusively applied to romantic pairings, and it ended up applying to Zuko and Katara. And then she ran out into the middle of a fight with tunnel vision just to get to him.

Also!! Also Zuko pushing Katara out of the way of the falling rocks at the Western Air Temple!! And Katara catching him as he fell from the war balloon that he fought Azula on!! Before they’re even getting along, they’re the ones reaching for each other. They come to this place of equal ground, as partners, who watch each other’s backs, call each other out but still listen attentively and understand, and provide the support that the other has been sorely lacking up until they knew each other (whether that be from lack of effort or lack of understanding from others, or an unwillingness to accept it for themselves).

Then, trailing along under the surface of this, we see the themes of the show totally embodied by Zuko and Katara as individuals and in their relationship to one another. There’s a YouTuber, sneezyreviews, who has a, like, 2-hour explanation on why she not only loves zutara but also believes that their endgame would’ve actually elevated the writing of atla to new levels particularly because of thematic cohesion and resolved character arcs. It’s the zutara dissertation I never knew I needed, and it’s funny and eloquent and effective, so I’m just going to sum up her section on thematic cohesion to the best of my abilities and then link it for whenever you have the time. And I HIGHLY recommend it, especially if you want a full understanding of what makes zutara so great and gives it such longevity.

Guru pathik has a line that goes something like this: separation is an illusion; things that seem different are just two parts of the same whole. Iroh also tells Zuko something similar: balance and strength are achieved when the different nations come together and influence one another and celebrate what makes them each unique. And this lesson is a massive central arc that both Zuko and Katara go through, moving past a black-and-white, good guys-vs-bad guys, us-vs-them mentality and into a greyer, more nuanced view of the world. Zuko sees the fire nation from an entirely new perspective and while he still loves and hopes for his nations future, he surrenders his blind loyalty to them in exchange for an unflinching loyalty to peace and love. Katara too had to come to terms with the fact that cruel people exist in the earth kingdom and water tribes, while some fire nation citizens are just regular, kind people who also need and deserve to have someone speak on their behalf. And this is honed in directly on how they view each other. They grow in their individual journeys to be open to the humanity in the other and then, once they’ve found that, they’re able to grow more in compassion for others in a beautiful feedback loop. And this is all matched in the symbolism repeatedly and intentionally associated with them in canon: sun and moon, fire and water, yin and yang, Oma and Shu who found love despite their warring nations. Their individual arcs are completed in each other and complement the themes of atla beautifully.

The canon pairs... just don’t. Which, again, is fine. But the very things that give atla longevity and popularity are anchored in zutara. Kat@ang doesn’t accomplish this. They’re... nice. Sweet. Especially when you erase a good portion of their interactions in S3. It could’ve been just a sweet love story. (Personally, the dynamic between toph and aang accomplish the same thing that zutara does, with complementary personalities that fulfill the theme of opposites blending in harmony) M@iko, on the other hand, is less sweet but I think wasn’t even supposed to last. Zuko’s relationship with Mai seems to represent his relationship with his old life as a whole. He can’t be emotionally vulnerable, he’s goaded into abusing his privileges, his agency and opinions aren’t respected. They just don’t have common ground with which to discuss anything that matters, so they don’t. As far as themes, the relationship doesn’t fit with atla. It’s zuko returning to and sticking with what is (on the surface) like him, what’s expected. Fire nation with fire nation. Fluid water bender with the flexible air bender. Like with like, separated from what is different and challenging and complementary.

And all of these things combined of course lead to the potential for the ship. I don’t know how familiar you are with the post-atla canon but... well, miss “I will never turn my back on people who need me”, miss “I don’t want to heal! I want to fight!” ends up living quietly in the SWT as a designated healer who turns a blind eye to the water tribe civil war happening right outside her front door. Which can be fine! People change! Some people just wanna stay inside. I just wanna stay inside! But the potential future for zutara is so much more satisfying, with Katara becoming the most unconventional Fire Lady the uppity old cads who are stuck on the old ways have ever seen. Fanon has her serving as a voice for the other nations within a kingdom at the point of its biggest political upheaval, as a confidante to Zuko who can actually help him while he’s trying to figure out how to move forward and make reparations. They have the opportunity, together, to accomplish what they both have set on their hearts to fight for: positive change that lends itself to harmony and balance. And the steambabies! A popular headcanon is that their firstborn daughter, the crown princess, is actually a waterbender, which causes such an uproar among the people who are adamantly clinging to the old ways. It’s just a future full of potential to be forces for good together, full of trust, intimacy, joy. The exact era of peace and love and balance that zuko announces that he intends to ring in with the start of his reign as Fire Lord is, again, magnified by the very personal zutara relationship. And we love to see it.

tl;dr zutara isn’t for everyone. Some people just don’t vibe with it. Some are nostalgic. Some love the canon they grew up with. Some have been disappointed for years. Some just see themselves in other characters and want their happiness instead. Whatever the reason, that’s fine. But for me, I love the way these two, from the moment they give each other a fair chance, are able to lower their walls and prejudices to see the other for the kindred spirits they are. They see each other’s humanity, and their response is to pour out love and support and compassion. I love that they’re a power couple in battle. I love the symbolism and, honestly, soulmatism that colors their every interaction. I love that they embody the whole storyline of atla in their relationship and how it develops, which is notably why their seasonal arcs always culminate in each finale with how they relate to one another. I love that zuko adopting a waterbending move is what actually saves his life and then katara’s. I love the chemistry! And I love the future they could’ve had, instead of the ones they were given.

So, in conclusion: I just think they’re neat and I hope you do too, at least a little bit. Even if it’s just respectfully from a disinterested distance cause you do you. And now here is the video I mentioned. I’m sorry this post got so long and then I gave you an even longer homework assignment, but I can’t recommend it enough. She says it all better than I can.

[ruby-whistler]

@justalads hi, hello! made a new post because didn't want to clog up everything with a suuper long string of reblogs, so i hope you don't mind!

also, i'm sorry to ask you this, but i have trouble focusing - in your next reply, would you maybe mind cutting up the big paragraphs into smaller ones? i'm nd and it's extremely difficult to concentrate at long strings of text like that, which is why i usually cut up everything i say into chunks :]

(actually had to have my friend cut up your last reply because he's a v fast reader, shoutout ani lmao)

anyways, let's continue the debate i say because there's a lot to still talk about in my opinion as well

/dsmp /rp, and of course all /lh

as for the whole was manipulated / wasn't manipulated thing, there's pretty much a divide amongst most people i know whether or not to call it that - but since that word's been misused a lot in this fandom, here is the instance most people are referring to, for you to judge for yourself, in this very (in my opinion) well-written analysis!

since i myself am very confused about the subject but i think it'd be better for you to read that first, i'll just move past that for now i think.

i attached a lot more resources this time because i remembered that a lot of people who agree with me on these things are smarter than me so, sorry for the links you'll have to click through this time but i think it could help me articulate what i actually want to say better.

i don't think i entirely get your point about it "making sense for him to progress like this". i don't know what you mean by 'make sense'. it comes off as 'he was always going to become this way because of the kind of person he was in the beginning' which, i don't agree with in general? because no, you don't just become a bad person, and especially with c!dream i find that this ignores a lot of the things that he went through.

also, i wouldn't say everyone had equal hand in what happened. "a product of his environment" means everything sort of mixed together; the way the world works; a cycle of violence, eye for an eye, and no therapy or communication.

dream's spiral isn't a result of any one character's actions. c!wilbur started the whole big wars and animosity thing, but that's only about 50% of what i'd call "the environment". there's also a lot of personal mistakes and miscommunication mixed in.

so no, i'm not saying it was entirely "other characters"' fault, what i mean is more that they contributed by you know, treating him as the incarnation of all evil, breaking his personal boundaries, overall just no one treating him like they should a person (this is overall their attitude over multiple seasons), etc..

and also another thing i meant to say was that he didn't deserve the abandonment. no one deserves to lose half their friends once (l'manberg when they turned against him for literally no good reason in his eyes), and then watch the ones who were the last remaining and the closest ones he had, leave him one by one because of an image of himself he had no control over, which was started by one and then perpetuated until he became a literal hate magnet. people did hurt c!dream, and he didn't deserve that.

all i'm saying is that i see where he is coming from, and that his spiral wasn't a result of powerhungriness, or cruelty, or any other personal flaw, but it was literally someone who cared about people too much getting driven too far by the circumstances he was put into.

and i think that is my overall statement for now.

you said i was "brushing it off as george being a drama queen" for the whole dethronement scene. i read what you said about it, and i'd like to ask you to once again watch the actual stream.

george literally tried to steal the l'mantree and got assassinated by techno beforehand. i don't see why he would be in any way in the wrong for dream taking away his kingship, and i don't think it is reminiscent of a power dynamic or dream having "higher authority".

dream thinking george can't handle himself is completely justified considering what he did and how he didn't even attempt to stay neutral. he was supposed to be a diplomatic figure who would make sure the dream smp doesn't get into wars, that was the point of pretending to be a monarchy (because the dsmp really just isn't, it's anarchy with a diplomatic representative and an army general).

here's a thread which besides other things mentions things dream did for the two of them, and besides fighting with him in one (george) or two (sapnap) wars they really weren't "loyal to him for a long while" compared to the amount of times he sacrificed things for them.

"have an equal say in things" doesn't apply when one of the three is trying to keep peace and the other two instigate conflict left and right. like i'm sorry but i don't see why dream would owe them a say in the faction he's trying to protect.

dream doesn't think of them as lower. that actually just sounds like guilt-tripping your friend to let you take care of a pet you've poisoned before and he had to rush to the hospital. peace is fragile and these two weren't responsible enough to be given the power to break it.

to say "george didn't want" it was an overstatement. he literally did nothing as a king and he had no control in the first place (because the dream smp doesn't have a government in the first place).

the whole thing about him being sad was for show because c!george is a manipulative prick who takes advantage of his friends for fun. and i don't mean this in a bad way, he's not a bad person for it, he's actually a really fun character more than anything, and he doesn't hurt anyone on purpose - but he's a jerk! he's done it before and now he's doing it again, and he continues to do it (dreamxdcoughcough-)

so no dream was. absolutely not in the wrong here, it wasn't even supposed to be public, george just made a big deal out of it.

the last thread i mentioned also talks about the whole "spirit speech" thing and, answer me a question - would you consider it justified for all of tommy's friends (even tubbo who he's been close with for so long) to abandon him just because he's said basically the same thing about the discs - like three times?

that's just the double standards though. phil and techno are still being hated on for "abandoning" a kid they barely know - and meanwhile dream's been given up on by everyone he's ever cared about before being given a chance, but people try to find ways it's his fault, like it matters.

it doesn't matter, because abandonment hurts you, no matter if the people have good reasons for it or not, and in this case they didn't. the point i'm making is this character has been hurt and has been actively hurting and it's been ignored for bias' sake.

i'm not saying they're bad people for it, or responsible for his actions. some of them are bad people independently (/hj). but they still affected him.

“if respect is the only thing protecting you from a knife in the back, then respect is nothing, right?” yeah? i don't see the point in this either. interesting to point out that dream learned this the hard way with you know, no one having respect for him as a person and only being able to fight for what he cares about via 'an axe and a shield'.

and no, dream didn't have an arising god complex. he was becoming more desperate for control because of his circumstances over the course of s2, but the god complex only happened in the prison because he had all control of everything (who he gets to talk to, what and when he gets to eat) taken away for months before being shown a smidge of power again. that's just a natural reaction to very messed up circumstances that had no buildup other than that.

the no-remorse thing - he could be remorseful and we wouldn't know. that's not even speculation, that's just saying that pretending to know whether or not he regrets things is a weak argument because we have no evidence for or against; we don't see his pov. that he doesn't show it doesn't say anything, it's a vital part of his character that he doesn't show what he's thinking.

"friends support each other" yes, and none of c!dream's "friends" ever did. it's a contrast with how much support for example tommy, tubbo, or wilbur got. not saying they weren't all abandoned as well, but no one has been alone to the point c!dream was or completely emotionally isolated for so long. his experience in this way is unique, and hence it's formed him in a way it hasn't anyone else.

dream didn't hurt george. he did create a place in the vault for his fish (that would be mars, not beckerson though), and he did do bad things to other people. he had reasons to be upset at someone who he didn't expect to do bad things doing them. it doesn't justify the things he said. it's a lot of explanation vs. justification when it comes to this server, and this is an example of this.

it wasn't a reaction to him being directly hurt by him, which is what you had implied (if i remember correctly) in the last post, and it wasn't right of him to do. also i agree he wasn't betraying him with what he said in prison, he'd done that a long time ago anyways.

"puffy does not dismiss people’s trauma just because they are adults, or if she does i haven’t seen strong evidence of it." jack, nikki and in a way the eggpire. dream is not far behind, but not the main example.

"you point out that she’s a guardian figure but from what i remember that lasted for a couple streams and after that wasn’t really mentioned in canon. if she really saw him like that, then maybe she would have checked up on him earlier and maybe would have told him off."

i'm pretty sure it was canonized by cc!puffy saying c!puffy isn't his biological mom, but that she sees herself as his guardian figure. so yes, she really saw him like that, and yeah, she "would've" checked up on him earlier; or rather "should've", but she didn't, and that's precisely what i'm talking about. that's not how you treat someone you allegedly see as being a guardian of. not saying c!puffy's a bad person, but she's another one c!dream was attached to and who failed to ever reach out to him before deeming him deserving of what he's (was, because admittedly it's gotten worse since) going through.

"she said at one point that he didn’t deserve to see her but she still cared about him."

this is what i mean when i say she has a moral superiority problem. like she's doing something extra by being a decent person. i know this might come across as cynical, and i swear i don't hate the character, but that sentence is very hypocritical, you must admit.

"she did try."

nope! she said she was going to try. that's the problem. i'm not talking about intentions here in the slightest, i'm talking about the actual consequences and effect it had on him as a character and why it's just very sad in my opinion that none of the people he thought were close to him stood by his side or even attempted to help him.

the entire original post was very clearly stated as not blaming most of these characters for acting in the way they did. it was "critical" of a lot of them in a way, but i never said anything negative about them other than describing things they did that had a negative effect.

i stand by that, because i truly believe they did all those things, and them having good intentions or personal feelings doesn't change that. it contextualizes them, but doesn't take away from the harm.

saying "it's not her fault" about puffy for example or that "it was just a reaction" is excusing those things, which is what i disagree with.

here is a thread as to why people like puffy or sapnap saying certain things is understandable but still very messed up, please read since it details parts of what i've said here in an arguably better way.

you also phrased the whole "she didn't abandon him either" part like he was the one who cut the ties which is not true. she wasn't there for him, is the point. another person he cared about who didn't prove to care about him enough to stop him from spiralling or try help at all.

if "they don't owe him anything" is your base argument against someone being hurt via being left by people they care about over and over again until they're utterly alone with no support system and unhealthy mindsets, we might have to agree to disagree :) /nm

please clarify if that wasn't the intention, because it sounds like it.

"i think that how people feel about it depends a lot on when they started watching, and who they were watching. the thing you have to take into consideration is that at the start of l’manburg, a lot of the roleplay was not very serious. the sides were messier than they are today. that doesn’t work or make sense for people who want to see it as only one thing, and are fixed in their ways so much that they’ll ignore canon to prove their point."

i've been watching since august and yeah, i agree. i've always seen c!dream as in the right at that point, so it's definitely different for the people who haven't seen that happen.

"you seem to have a very fixed view of wilbur: that he only wanted power, that he enjoyed tearing people apart, that he lied all the time, and that he was attempting to paint dream as something he wasn’t."

to be fair, you seem to have a very fixated view of wilbur too. i do think he wanted power, but also just to revolt for the sake of it - i don't think he straight up enjoyed it but it was a means to his ends, i don't think he lied all the time but he lied much more than people realize, and i don't think he just attempted, i dare to say he was extremely successful.

"you also see him as conscious of what he was doing the entire time, and sort of treating the war like a game."

i'd say a story or narrative is a much more fitting metaphor. also yeah he's so much smarter than people give him credit for, but i guess covering it up was intentional as well, because manipulation ain't meant to be obvious at first sight now is it? like for example c!dream, that man was awful at it. he's just. so bad. unironically. he did cause a lot of harm, not diminishing that, but man. his manipulation is the clumsiest thing i've ever seen, people calling him a puppeteer is such an overstatement, it's really funny to me.

now c!wilbur? he was really good at it. that's what i mean by "you need more than intelligence", because emotions are stronger than critical thinking and can be exploited easier. all the sentimentality around l'manberg is a great example.

"wilbur didn’t go around trying to recruit people by saying “dream is bad”." yeah no he started by straight up lying to fundy when they first met (if you rewatch the hot dog van video, there's really no denying that), then he lied some more to tubbo while praising him every time he followed his orders, i don't completely remember eret's recruitment, and tommy looked up to him since the beginning, and it's very easy to see that c!wil took advantage of that.

he did tell people they needed to revolt against tyranny though, that's precisely what he did and how he got them to side with him in the war. by tyranny he meant everyone in the server who wasn't european, picking dream as the scapegoat since he had the most power (not by establishing it in any way, but simply by being skilled) and it was smart to do that, not gonna lie!

"weak businessman" is just not true. he was planning to "use the tommyinnits of the world" aka, the "young and naive" (his words, not mine) ones whom he could "mold", in order to establish a capitalist empire based on stealing from people while lying to them about saving them from being sick.

this man was planning to take power from the start and he was going to use lies to get what he needed. from the beginning i have no reason to believe why he would change his goals when he proceeded to do that very thing and achieve it, just put "revolution" instead of "business" as a guise of what he was actually doing.

"you quoted revivedbur’s stream as proof it was, which is funny because despite saying wilbur is someone who lies you missed a kind of big one." yeah, as someone who mentioned people ignoring canon earlier you missed kind of a big one.

the only reason people disbelieve this is not because it doesn't align with canon, but because they assume he's lying for the sole reason that it doesn't align with the way they see canon.

the reason i believe it is not because i believe a word c!wilbur says (i never have and never will), but because it aligns with what actual evidence has been saying from the start, as well as the way cc!wilbur talks about the character. it's simply further confirmation of what many people already knew; an extension even, if you will.

people tend to take things characters say at face value and then use it as their only evidence; "if you want to hear why l’manburg was created, you have to listen to wilbur when he created it."

what they actually ignore is you know, the actions, not the words. according to his actions and all known laws of logic, he was lying since the beginning, and that is the point. and it makes sense for him to lie, unlike in alivebur's case.

"i say he cared about l’manburg because it drove him to death."

yeah he did care! cc!wilbur said so! he also said he cared about it in a twisted way and that he had an unhealthy view of possessions. he thought l'manberg his and no one else's, a weapon of power for him to use however he pleases.

unlike dream who destroyed himself bit by bit trying to take back what he cares about, because it was not power, but people - wilbur saw no more worth in it and destroyed it instead. his own death and spiral was a collateral, because that isn't a healthy mindset either.

interesting foils, actually, i didn't notice that before.

"the whole time wilbur was attempting to portray a character who was a chronic liar and manipulator, and it was all planned out from the start. purely because of the chaos of season one i don’t think this is possible."

i reckon you're underestimating cc!wilbur here. that man could play a convincing, complex, morally messed up character while roleplaying with kindergarteners.

"and, you know, if he’s saying “dream is not our enemy” that hardly sounds like forcing a narrative onto him?" i mean i don't think i need to give evidence as to wilbur calling him a tyrant right after. i was just talking about how hypocritical and downright ridiculous his later accusations are, which you didn't address.

"because what he’s saying is that dream’s actions are tyrannical, his rule is tyrannical, not him." no actually, he said right after; 'big words, that's what we use in war', about calling him that, so i don't reckon that is the case. he was calling him that for the sake of it, and later on everyone ended up believing him about that despite there being no evidence. i must admit, the man's very good at what he does. he constantly changes the narrative to whatever benefits him and somehow gets away unnoticed. that was my point.

dream didn't tell sapnap it was a bad idea because it wasn't...? wilbur was going around stealing from people while lying to them. wil was framing himself to be the victim. like the whole "drugs" bit was funny but wilbur was only making drugs to estabilish, once again, a capitalistic empire he would be in charge of, on dream's land, and he was also doing it via dishonest means.

the intentions never changed, it was simply the way it was achieved that did, which switched from just lying to straight up propaganda when people managed to stop him at first.

so yes, wilbur's definition of tyranny very much was being stopped from stealing.

so yeah, even if dream would've done the same to them, he a hundred percent would be in the right, but he didn't even do that much, which makes wil's accusations all the more ridiculous.

just because sapnap was fighting against being stolen from - and others being stolen from - doesn't make him tyrannical or a government. your teacher in school isn't a government just because she has authority of some kind?

"wilbur’s problem was that sapnap could do that and get away with it." well then that's his problem, because people should be able to get away with protecting themselves and others from people trying to rob everyone on the server of a specific item and then gain power from selling rare supplies.

also it was sapnap and tubbo, they both did the same thing, and wilbur didn't seem to have that much of a problem with tubbo, now did he? he accepted him right after he gave them supplies, then rejected sapnap when he did the same. the people he was accusing of being tyrannical were very selective, and he seemed to be also selectively choosing whoever he was "protecting" from said "tyranny". though i guess "using the tommyinnits of the server" also included using tubbo, now didn't it?

"i highly, highly doubt that was what it was written as at the time."

yeah, dream did quote the lion king, but that doesn't change the way that it was anarchy. dream's "no factions" thing he had going on also included no government by default, showcased by him having problems with people starting countries. if it wasn't anarchy, what was it then? because that's literally the only thing that fits. there was no government and even dream described it as a "family" rather than any form of hierarchy, so i don't get your point. some people are going to have better things than others, and they'll be able to protect themselves and others better, but there is no system in place, that's literally how anarchy works. their mock court with no actual laws enforced by no one doesn't count i don't think.

the fact they thought they had a reason to attack her doesn't change the fact that they attacked first, so dream had all the reasons to believe they were aggressive and was fully justified in declaring war. this makes the statement "dream attacked first" untrue as well.

wilbur knew what he was doing, he knew he was going to scam people for power. if he thought he was being mistreated he could just stop trying to mistreat others.

i do agree it became a lot of other things for other people. i think that's one of the reasons wilbur destroyed it though; it was supposed to be his l'manberg.

if the power was supposed to "let him do what he wanted" then that's quite ironic considering what he wanted was power (you know, the reason he started the drug empire in the first place), not because he wanted to "make drugs undisturbed". that is quite literally an obvious lie he used when they first started and somehow people have totally forgotten that was not the truth.

"he didn't want power over others" cc!wilbur said he wanted to have power over l'manberg because he thought it was something worth having power over. if you consider l'manberg the people, then your statement would be untrue. then again, maybe he simply wanted to have something be fully his because of his possessive nature.

"he would lie about his past actions out of a place of self hatred." is just. reaching, with all due respect. this man might be mentally unstable, but that makes literally no sense when the day before he was saying how he had "plans to make". he thinks ahead, always.

"what if one person wants the “freedom” to attack another? it’s still technically allowed, but obviously it’s morally wrong." yeah that's what i mean by not infringing on the rights of others. in that case they shouldn't have that freedom, just like wilbur shouldn't have the freedom to restrict others' freedom.

also i see the whole "words" schtick as manipulation because it was. they said they "fought with words", like that doesn't sound like a peaceful solution, more like a different approach, and it was because that is what they did.

other people believed in the ideals of l'manberg and they protected it for good reasons, but that doesn't change the fact it was build on lies by a liar and it did exactly what it was meant to do - it divided people.

i actually talk about it in this post here!

"wilbur was saying that he wanted to create something important." nope, the quote continues something like "make them think it's important because you want to have power over it, when it's not." here's the link to the whole clip.

"wilbur showed in the first war that that wasn’t his main motive" i've already said why i find this misinformation. he said it, he didn't show it, and that is because it isn't true.

the "something worth" part is just. taking things out of context to the point they're something completely different. yes, it was worth something to wilbur, and that worth was power. that's literally what that means.

the greater smp did represent anarchy and peace. that were the ideals c!dream was fighting for, and still was later on, that much was obvious if you look deeper into his character, so i'm not going to argue, other than that based on the information i have, it's incorrect.

"someone who wanted peace at the start and someone who tried to protect the thing and people he loved." see you tell me you didn't fall for propaganda and then say this. the thing he loved was his own personal power, and that was the end of it. if he wanted peace he wouldn't be starting factions and accusing people of being tyrannical while he himself was trying to estabilish an empire. i'm not saying he's an awful person, they're all morally grey, but that's just what all the actual evidence points to.

"your view shows him as lying about practically everything to everyone all the time, never caring about the citizens, and striving for conflict."

again, i don't believe he liked conflict for its own sake, but he did create division for his own benefit the way i see it.

yeah wilbur said it genuinely to tubbo when he first brought him armor; when the rule was first established. here's the post where i found it.

wilbur was never a dictator because people didn't listen to him, which is why he did the whole election thing, with his other plan than a democratic election with no democracy being this:

Wilbur: “We can either, Tommy, right – we can either become a dictatorship, okay…we can just suddenly decide, ‘right, we’re in charge,’ and we just start – we start asserting our dominance. Now the key thing to being a dictator, is we need to control the center of power…so we get an army going –”

Tommy: “What is the center of power? Is it like some cube, or like an orb?”

Wilbur: “The army! The army! The banks, you know? We take control of those, and then people will do exactly as we say, right? That’s the dictatorship route, right. The other route is the democracy route. Now, this route’s gonna be slightly harder, but I have a plan. So I was thinking…what better way of making people believe that you’re in charge than by having them vote for you, right?”

so uh, i wouldn't be so quick to say he didn't plan on being oppressive to his people. he was literally planning to start an army and take total control of the economy to "assert dominance" over his own people -because he didn't think they respected his authority enough and was irritated by it - but instead defaulted to lies and manipulation of the crowd. you see a pattern already?

"the feelings of l’manburg were more like friends than a hierarchy even though he was technically in charge." this is the thing with dream though, except there was. actually no hierarchy. the original dream smp was this but actually true instead of just being a front. no one actually needed l'manberg, wilbur made them think they did. tubbo and sapnap used to be friends before this. the friendships inside of it could've existed without, and would've probably been better off without being stained by war.

wilbur didn't fear for anyone's safety, and i don't get where you would get that conclusion. the dream smp was already safe, people like dream and sapnap were making it safe.

"people that were already in l’manburg had been affected firsthand by dream. they knew what he was capable of and so were fighting for l’manburg and each other, not because wilbur told them to." i don't find this true at all, please elaborate because i have reasons to believe this is incorrect.

the quote you’ve listed is very interesting to me, because it first of all shows dream’s “ends justify the means” mentality (that is also shown in an explanation of his motives during moments like this, which happened after the war), as well as trying to end the war as soon as he could.

the dream smp was freedom. the freedom wilbur was asking for was the freedom to take the land, take the people dream considered his friends, divide them and create a government.

wilbur was verbally aggressive with dream since the beginning, back when he was cocky. this only shows that dream was one of the few people who didn’t fall for his words. his main point in his motivation during the war was not wanting to give them independence, which would be, well, giving wilbur power over the land *and* the people. so i think from his position this is extremely understandable.

but back to the topic at hand, wilbur’s speech here means literally nothing, because it’s as untrue as everything he’s said before - in both intention and meaning - as well as being a last attempt at turning the situation in his favor using words. he said he was a peaceful businessman back when he was robbing people, and not like that meant anything when his actions said otherwise. both sides had their losses and were ready to harm the other, neither was the victim, no matter how good wil is at playing one.

dream was giving them chances over and over again. you can literally see he wasn’t hurting them because he wanted to, even despite it being war he was willing to step away at any moment should the other side surrender. and, well, of course dream’s perspective wouldn’t mean anything to wilbur, because he had his own, and he knew no one was going to believe dream anyways; he made sure of it.

i’m not saying he wanted violence, but that doesn’t mean he was good or pacifistic. he was *ready* to be violent if needed (see the armor quote again as well as the fact they literally fought), but i too would be happy if i was able to to colonize someone’s land without any resistance or conflict if you know what i mean. guess wilbur realized rather quickly words wouldn’t work on dream, which is why he got verbally violent and didn’t seem opposed to fighting him later on (during the actual war).

reminds me of exile, in a way. can’t get them to listen to you and give you what you want? get them out of the way in a different manner.

either way, point is; i’m sure wilbur didn’t want to fight, i don’t think him a fan of violence *at all* but he was the instigator and was ready to perpetuate war to get what he wanted. (see him also being willing to make an army to control his citizens, but using underhanded tactics instead to make people think they were voting for him.)

the whole “dream attacked the child soldiers and was always the one to start it” is quickly negated by the way dream constantly asked them to give up instead of fighting. it was literally wilbur who pushed them to go on and risk (and lose) their lives. dream’s said later on that he “had to” do what he did (he was being genuine here), which means he, in a way, felt responsible for stopping wilbur & l’manberg. he didn’t want to be violent, but unlike wilbur, he wasn’t going to be able to talk them out of it. it makes sense he would turn to threats and intimidation to try and get them to surrender first, i mean, what other choice was there?

l’manberg weren’t the ones forced to fight, is what i’m getting at.

dream wasn’t any more violent than wilbur, it’s just wil was better at non-violent, but still morally reprehensible, ways of getting his way, and he used them to his full advantage. neither of them wanted violence for the sake of it, and i never said that; i just said wilbur’s “pacifist” schtick was a total ruse, and never meant anything about his actual “peacefulness”, which i still find true.

as for the whole “manipulated or didn’t manipulate” thing with the vassal scene, the first link i sent here i think describes my stance quite well. but it’s very interesting to note that there’s a theory wilbur legitimately thinks dream selfish, which is why he said that - either way, the effect remains, dream was essentially shut down after trying to gain back people’s trust and help out who he considered the “good side”.

dream was very obviously making efforts, giving tommy and techno as well as the pogtopia cause as a whole a whole lot of supplies, including his crossbow which he had a personal attachment to. he expressed outwardly that he was on their side, to the point where he refused to call l’manberg “manberg” and then was caught off-guard when wilbur called it that during the vassal conversation.

dream was attached to tommy, as shown by fighting for him during the eiffel tower conflict, and also helping him overall. their relationship was always very interesting, but after the l’manberg war, their friendship never really changed - tommy scammed the discs back, that had at that point legally belonged to dream, but he didn’t seem to hold even that against him as he tried to help get back l’manberg with him. they were the sort of friends who would tease each other to hell an back and fight on the battlefield each other but still have friendly vibes… you know what i mean?

i think this is why exile hurt so much, to me. that i believe they had genuinely been friends once, before it went downhill at a hella steep inclide. but enough me rambling about what had once been my comfort duo and is now utterly unsalvageable.

either way, he was attached to the people involved, because a lot of the character strongly indicates he has a sense of responsibility (not control) over the people on his smp. it’s the reason he’d always get involved in conflicts other people started, like pogtopia.

his fatal flaw has always been caring too much after all - and not being cared about back, because sometimes, that’s just how life works. that’s what destroyed him. that’s literally the character, so saying he “could’ve just walked away” is dismissing pretty much his entire personality, but hey, i don’t blame you, just pointing it out.

the thing is wilbur did force him to make a terribly hard decision. dream could either give him the tnt, ally with the self-proclaimed bad guys, or let wilbur get back his power and go mad with ambition - not saying it would happen, but it’s what wilbur threatened to do. keep in mind dream’s main concerns about this whole conflict was schlatt going to war with the dream smp, as expressed by himself, and so wilbur saying he would genuinely do the same if he became president again was literally backing dream up into a corner.

“if dream thought wilbur was being a villain”

Wilbur: How much would you say that me and Tommy are kind of the bad guys here? We… We… I mean, we-

Dream: I don’t think you guys are the bad guys.

i… don’t know where you got that from, maybe you misunderstood something i said, but no, he definitely didn’t. until wilbur convinced him, that is.

“i’m also going to say that “villainization” and “calling out someone for hurting you” are not the same thing.”

yeah, they are. and dream was villainized.

so uh, first of all, wilbur literally said he was going to “use the tommyinnits of the world” in order to establish his capitalistic empire, then he called tommy “young”, “naïve”, and said that he likes him because he can build a foundation upon him, after which tommy questioned him and he said not to worry about it.

wilbur proceeded to lie to everyone including tommy about dream, the country he was establishing, to the point where tommy is seen confused in both the vassal scene and the revivedbur scene - asking why he would ally himself with dream both times, because he genuinely thought he was a bad person, a “dictator” they were fighting against.

wilbur didn’t reply either time, because he knew very well what he had done and he intended for tommy to think that.

during the entirely establishment he was exploiting the clingyduo not knowing anything about politics in order to enforce unhealthy patriotism onto them. he forced tommy to give up his hill-house and turn it into an embassy, guilt-tripping him by saying he doesn’t care about the cause (which was a lie) and that he can just leave if he doesn’t intend on being loyal.

and then there’s this scene:

Tommy: “Look at me in the eyes when I’m talking to you – There’s been some proper tyranny.”

[Wilbur pushes Tommy off the wall]

Wilbur: “Don’t tell me what to do, alright? You’re getting out of your comfort zone. Who’s the President? Tommy, who’s the President?”

Tommy: “How dare you, how dare you, you must respect manners, Wilbur! There are manners! There is a common etiquette that everyone must follow, my friend!”

Wilbur: “Tommy, who’s the President?”

Tommy: “…You’re the President.”

Wilbur: “Good lad, now come back.”

Tommy: “I – you’re gonna have to drop down a ladder, I’m not sure how we’re gonna –”

Wilbur: “Walk ‘round, walk ‘round, Mr. Vice President.”

and this is just before pogtopia. after this, wilbur proceeded to continue this kind of behaviour on tommy, with the whole “you’re never gonna be president” schtick - here we can see it actually didn’t start in pogtopia. wilbur had been pushing tommy down before in order to estabilish his own power and demand respect.

basically, tommy has been used by every adult figure he’s ever trusted and looked up to. which is part of why wilbur’s behaviour being ignored irks me so much, besides other things.

“when he was faced with a problem, he went for someone’s attachments as an attempt to get things back, and at this point hadn’t been called a villain. i see this as another precursor to the vault, again, the signs were there. the initial conflict of the disk war ended in general peace, it was the fact that dream never gave up those disks and continued to try and use them against tommy that hurt him.”

i disagree with this analysis of dream. he went for the discs because they were physically valuable at the time - tommy had only two, and he grinded hours for them, much like dream for his tools and armor. tommy formed an attachment to them as a result of the disc war, not the other way around.

he continued to use them for their attachment to get back l’manberg and then forcibly getting them back when the chance was provided.

dream didn’t use them once against c!tommy before he himself multiple times showcased how much he cared about them despite there being other discs at that point. dream only used them as placebo tokens to skeppy in order to get back something he was actually attached to, if i remember correctly.

dream fell deeper into using attachment because it became the only way to control his surroundings. no one had ever actually listened to him, and groups of people that had formed were too powerful for him to simply take on without reprocussions.

not only that, he became to lose control of everything - his friend’s house got burnt down and he wanted the person who did it to be held accountable? the leather of his dead horse got used to blackmail him! he was taught this from experience, not because he was “high on the power” or whatever your are implying was the reason.

“when he had then seen that dream would willingly hurt him, he began to call dream that and mean it.” he was taught dream to call dream a tyrant by wilbur, that’s literally what happened in canon. he did genuinely think he was a villain before the war, because that’s what wilbur told him and he trusted wilbur.

i am not taking everything wilbur says as truth. that man lies his mouth off every time he appears on screen. it’s just a character acknowledging what people who looked deeper into the narrative already knew. i’m not going to assume someone is lying when i logically know what he’s saying matches up with what i know to be true.

either way, here’s some more analyses on the subject you might wanna read to understand my points better and be able to more thoroughly rebut them: (1, 2, 3)

“with the sam thing, i am fairly certain that intentional withholding of food would be considered direct torture, and if that has not been retconned i would be surprised, but i don’t know.”

i… am genuinely sort of baffled at why you would think that? the prison arc is literally made to be about c!sam’s corruption, the mistreatment of dream (including mental and physical abuse) and c!quackity’s manipulation of the situation of his own gain. there is no reason to retcon the torture they put in on purpose? the prison arc is supposed to parallel exile and humanize dream. the people who have been analysing it all agree on that.

here’s a shorter (and outdated) list of the ways in which pandora’s is inhumane and here’s a longer one including things implied and more in-depth about c!sam and c!dream.

“the conditions are harsh and it’s interesting to remember that dream was the one who commissioned them in the first place (not meaning he deserves them, just food for thought)”

no, take your food back, i have heard this as a genuine excuse too many times by now. c!dream didn’t tell c!sam to physically and mentally abuse him. in fact he said that people would only be put in the main cell for 14 days max (the maximum amount of days before it becomes classified as torture by the united nations - man’s did his research), and they would have free reign of the prison. there have even been changes to the way the cell works since he’s been put in. he wasn’t going to subject anyone to the sort of thing he’s going through.

the only reason it’s happening to him is because people hate him and want him to suffer. the people of the server put him there because they thought they could use him later on, it’s a literal vault for a human being to be stored for later use, and it’s disgusting. people didn’t want him in the prison. they didn’t put him there to protect themselves. they were fully willing to kill him, and the only reason he is still alive is that they thought of him as an item and wanted to use his capabilities. (dream also buying into it, as he does with everything this godforsaken narrative enforces upon him, “i am the book”.)

i know it’s roleplay, but i’m emotionally invested in this arc, and it’s just so incredibly dark on purpose which people seem to ignore, so sorry for ranting.

“you say that you never said sam molded him into what he became, but you accuse the people of affecting dream and therefore forcing him into the role of the villain. i feel as if that is a type of molding?”

i’m saying no one molded dream on purpose, but what they all did (or should’ve done but didn’t) affected him in a very negative way nonetheless and should be acknowledged.

also, calling dream a monster or standing by while he gets ruthlessly murdered after following all orders and putting away all his armor and weapons isn’t very helpful of them.

“you saw it as skeppy “twisting his words”. this seems to be an example of someone calling dream on his crap, yeah? just because he’s twisting to defend himself doesn’t mean the other person is trying to make him be something he doesn’t want to be, it means that he’s uncomfortable or unable to deal with confrontation of his own acts and will attempt to justify them.”

no. i made an entire analysis of their interaction. that’s literally what he did, there is no softening that punch.

Dream: Anyway, um - you’re really making me out to be a bad guy! Like-

Dream: Look, we HAD to fight that war, okay? We had to fight that war, it was a necessary evil.

Skeppy: [Wheezes] No, it w- You’re telling me, you started the war too?

Dream: Yes! Because - listen-

Skeppy: You started it? It wasn’t even them, you started it-

Dream: Listen, they - they made a Declaration of Independence-

Skeppy: You one day woke up and said, “they don’t deserve that tiny piece of land”?

Dream: Well no, cause they made, they made a-

Skeppy: That’s literally what happened, one day you woke up and you said-

he continuously cuts him off while dream nervously expresses his discomfort over skeppy making him out to be the villain, and his refusal to listen. here’s my analysis of the interaction if you’d like to read it.

“i think it’s unfair to say that nobody tried to help him. people still treated him with respect and kindness for a long time and with those bonds it was ultimately him that cut them.”

no. name one bond that he cut first. george and sapnap? they left him first. sam, puffy, punz? he wasn’t as close with them, but he didn’t cut any of them off before they showed up during the disc finale ready to kill him. if that doesn’t count as them cutting attachments or abandoning him then i… don’t really know what you would call it?

“it feels a little victim-blamey to say that if only they had treated the guy hurting them better, maybe he wouldn’t have hurt them as much.” “you do say that dream is responsible for his actions, but you place the reason he did his actions on other people, effectively blaming them for how he turned out. this rubs me the wrong way because a lot of the people you accuse of doing this were people directly being harmed by him, and so it ends up sounding like they’re at fault for their own pain.”

well, it’s true, though? he was hurt and abandoned to the point when he didn’t care about hurting others anymore. that’s it. that’s his character arc. it’s not “victim-blamey”, it’s a fact. just because he ended up hurting people doesn’t negate the fact he was hurt himself first. the environment they all were a part of pushed him this far, and that’s just what happened.

the dream smp is a literal cycle of violence perpetuated by each and every one of them, and it’s awful for all of them. the problem is that they refuse to see things from others’ perspective and end up hurting each other as a result, which dream is a prime example of. that’s just the plot of the story, not victim-blaming anyone.

see the second to last line of my original post. “the entire dream smp is absolutely screwed, and every single one of them needs therapy.”

here’s another thread about that, actually!

i’m blaming the environment which includes the actions (which were often - not always - unintentional mistakes) of the individuals, i’m not saying they “brought this upon themselves” or anything of that sort. everyone makes mistakes and those mistakes might affect other people and how they act, but that’s not saying i’m blaming anyone for being hurt?

“sapnap still considered him a good guy up until the moment that he saw the space for beckerson in the vault.”

see you keep bringing this up but that doesn’t make sense at all. sapnap came into the vault before he saw that. he made the conscious decision to ally himself with tommy during doomsday before he saw that. he accused dream of not caring about him and george, and left to make his own country before he saw that. you get the point?

the vault was the direct consequence of the hurt he’d endured, so i don’t see why you would ever list it as a reason for people abandoning him? the prison is just them continuing it, although at this point they might have actual reasons, it doesn’t negate the fact that they ignore his bad conditions and even perpetuate them.

“dream was not alone until he chose to be alone. it was tragic that he chose that, but it was ultimately his choice and this is evidenced by the vault.”

people do not decide to isolate themselves for no reason. people started cutting him off first, they turned against him first, they made him the villain first, they used what he loved against him first, they told him he couldn’t ever achieve peace first. he only cut himself off only after all of that happened, and i would’ve done the same! you would’ve done the same. it was a defence mechanism that only sent him deeper down his mental spiral, but it was a reaction, not a decision he made. the vault is a physical embodiment of how deep down he went and how bad his state of mind had gotten overtime through neglect.

also, you might wanna give the vault vod a rewatch as well, and then tell me the person saying those things is mentally healthy and definitely doesn’t need help.

oh! also, a thread on attachment about dream. worth a read.

just because a response is an overreaction or wrong doesn’t make it any less of a response. nearly all of the things dream did was a reaction of some sort.

he lists his reason for starting the war as them declaring independence, so i don’t think it really matters when the official document was sent.

“he also initiated the final disk conflict, with the clear intention of murdering tubbo and putting tommy in the prison as a sort of thing for his amusement. he said multiple times that he found the struggle with tommy “fun”, and said their fight wasn’t over because he personally found it engaging to torment another person, and that was how he got power.”

oh yeah, that definitely seems like something the guy who’s only ever listed his reasons as being peace and has been mentally declining ever since would be completely honest about in front of his biggest enemy. /s

the thing is, the way dream behaves in front of tommy is starkly different than everyone else. c!dream sees him as the “hero” and himself as the “villain”, which is why the pushing of the narrative on his part is so strong when they interact.

besides, so many things he says simply don’t match up at all.

basically, he is very obviously playing a part when he says things like this. nothing he says like that matches up with anything else about his character, and that’s the only explanation. besides, this man’s evil monologues are straight out of a “how to be a scary villain” book.

no discredit to cc!dream of course, but it’s like that intentionally. cc!dream has said after this that c!dream is “reserved” not only about his feelings but also about his “plans” and “intentions”. that quite doesn’t match up with what he yells at the top of his lungs during that scene, now does it? his mask’s very convincing, to be fair, so i don’t blame you. he’s gotten good at playing his part over the years, which makes sense seeing as it was always expected of him, and other people would talk for him if he didn’t do it himself.

“there are a lot of conflicts that dream has started.”

...alright? list any other ones besides the last one?

“buying his line of “only caring about unity” and “trying to prevent chaos” … he uses this many times as an excuse for his actions, and the fact that he was still excusing and justifying his actions makes me think that he still genuinely believed he was right.”

well yes, because he does believe that. he uses the excuse because it’s true. the justification isn’t right of course, but he is not lying when he says those are his motivations, which is backed up by his prior explanations as well as actions. i am not buying anything, it’s what’s become evident from analysing him that that is what he wants to achieve. it doesn’t excuse anything, but saying that’s truly his end goal isn’t incorrect.

becoming a control freak as a result of feeling the loss of control over your own circumstances isn’t equal to dehumanizing the people you’re trying to control.

he didn’t ever take george’s personal freedom. he didn’t start using attachments because he thought it was convenient. i have literally no idea where you’re getting these claims from.

“dream’s actions during exile and the vault do not look like those of a man who is trying to get better but thinks he “has” to be something. honestly, it looks like a guy on a power trip who thinks he’s god and is going to try and prove it.”

both of those are wild misinterpretation of the character. which is understandable seeing as you’ve said already you never tried to look deeper into him, but it’s incorrect nonetheless.

he was trying to get better up until the 16th, which is when the bad things that happened to him stopped going up and instead went downhill, like, really fast. alright, that metaphor probably makes no sense, but you get the point. he had stopped trying at the point of exile, is the point. but he also does think he has to be something in order to “fix” his home.

he wasn’t on a power trip at all, he didn’t have a god complex up until the prison stripped him of all his dignity and then threw an opportunity at him, and he wasn’t trying to prove anything to anyone. that’s an easily debunkable assumption, but, well, guess it’s easy to make.

“there is a clip in which dream says he doesn’t really care how others see him and he doesn’t care if they think he’s bad.” yeah, i know he said that a couple of times. that’s him going numb after he was affected by how others saw him for way too long, which is completely natural. again, a psychological defence mechanism. him saying that he doesn’t mind others calling him a villain or a monster and even seems to agree that his methods are villainous but has just stopped caring makes the situation all the more messed up. makes the character all the more tragic.

“it requires dream to be lying about how he feels all the time. not technically impossible, because he does not talk about emotions.” he is emotionally repressed. it’s not just “not technically impossible”, it’s likely and fits perfectly into his character arc in canon.

“and if a writer is telling their story in a way that only makes sense if you disregard everything they say, i feel like it’s not very good storytelling, unless that is the entire point and the character is based on that.”

see, you get the point here. cc!wilbur is literally the man with an arg around him that has still not been solved. why would he hand us everything on a silver platter? why would he not force us to dig deeper and look beneath what is widely accepted? he literally talks about unreliable narrators constantly poking fun at how the audience seems to take things the characters say at face value, and i’d say early c!wilbur is a prime example of that. it is good storytelling because cc!wilbur pulls it off brilliantly.

it’s also called “the metanarrative”, which is a giant focus of the dream smp if you look closer, especially during the time cc!wilbur has been writing it, especially the establishment of l’manberg where he constantly talks hypocritically on purpose (he said something along the lines of “dream, you can’t just come onto someone’s land and take it for yourself, are you an idiot?” during the early days along with other things e. g. blatant trump references “we’ll build a wall and make the mexicans pay for it”, which i find hilarious) and you know what, good for him. people not being able to tell things go deeper than their feelings is, you know, valid, but also fun to watch, and cc!wilbur’s a controlled chaotic crimeboy.

“people stood by dream. people helped him.” none of them did that for long. “dream still had a system up until the moment he isolated himself” his main support system left by themselves.

i think you’re sort of purposefully discarding a lot of things and misinterpreting the character. it also seems you’re strongly biased against c!dream, which, to be fair, the majority of the fandom is.

look, i don’t want to attack your feelings about characters. you think what you want. but i’m basing my assumptions on evidence and also try to bring up evidence when i think people are misunderstanding because i believe it’s important to know the full truth. however, i understand the desire to not change your opinions if you feel attached to your current perspective - it's a piece of entertainment, you enjoy it the way you want to. you asked about it first though, so i’m giving you my opinion. we can stop at any time if you feel like we’re not getting anywhere, i’m completely fine with that.

i don’t want to seem aggressive, but i feel like at some points we’re just going in circles. would you consider talking over discord chat (better at writing longer messages than tumblr messages) so we can tackle each problem individually in real-time? no worries if you don’t, just thought it could work rather well to get somewhere in our discussion.

also, sorry for the surely numerous typos in this reply. i didn't have the mental energy to go back and proofread.

either way, have a nice day.

[ill-be-istj-if-no-one-else-is]

hello;

i would appreciate your opinion and arguments on my type- I am stuck on whether I am an INFJ or INTJ, and on my enneagram type. I know I am definitely an INJ; I'm not certain of which secondary axis I use. My own understanding of myself as a person has been flawed over the years due to some personal reasons, but I know I tend to be private emotionally, and really struggle to communicate anything remotely intimate using speech, and am better at writing it. I've started to improve on this since going to therapy so it is something that I believe is being remedied, but I tend to clam up and really struggle to articulate if it feels like my feeling bubble is being broached. Obviously if I am guiding the conversation, this happens less, as I feel like I can prevent people from touching on certain subjects. On a day to day basis, my interactions with people I see regularly really fascinate me, I'm keen to understand them and get to know them as people, and usually want to know everything. I try to gauge what questions are okay to ask, I have a tendency to maybe 1/10 times push comfort zones a little, but that is accidental unless I really would like to know something (much rarer for me to actively push against a sensed boundary). My social cues and how I interact with people tend to revolve around them individually, after I start my interactions as a whole with them based on my own ideas of what is normal. I often feel like I'm feeling around in the fog for things like what is ok or not. I never believe I fully understand anyone, at all, especially as we are dynamic, so this truth sometimes also unsettles me, as I like to be able to predict what to expect. It is very rare that I am taken aback by someone's behavior or didn't expect it; I do my best to avoid creating headaches for myself, and sometimes situations like that can be really hard for me to handle emotionally• I don't know if I am a thinker- I feel too illogical and full of holes to really be one, but also too closed off from my own emotional experience at times (over-intellectualizing) and often feel very clueless about other people as well- like I said, "in fog". I know this may seem unimportant and might be, but I am just reiterating that I really don't know which one I may be. • In terms of how I think logically, I was a philosophy minor (in ninth semester of college and last), and caught onto that very quickly, but grew bored and felt like I was not being adequately pushed by myself, so I switched to art, as that is a medium much more suited to conceptual thinking, pushing boundaries, and forcing myself to think both logically in a theoretical way and in a practical way. I understand and enjoy philosophical logic- premises, etc. As well as trouble-shooting for projects, and even in projects if I run into something I had hoped wouldn't happen but has. I like to feel that my efforts result in something useful and tangible. • In contrast to someone I work closely with, I tend to think through things much more beforehand than he does; in contrast he is a lot pickier than I am about how things make sense in his own work, and how they are completed, whereas I usually consider everything on an individual basis, and form the logic around the project- I think he tends towards the opposite the majority of the time. • My ideas on right and wrong tend to be difficult to change, and usually hinge on best possible long term outcome. I have knowingly stirred the pot once professionally, but knew that both the behavior of the individual in question was wrong (truly was, knew on a gut level and couldn't change that belief) and that eradicating it would benefit the department in the long run, which was a secondary motivator to my actions. I did read your FAQ, and tried my best to give good information; though this is hazy for me at best. If it matters, I think I am likely a head type, either 5 or 6, definitely not 7, and struggle to resonate with a heart type aside from 3. I struggle to also identify with a gut type. Thank you in advance for your help.

Hi anon,

I think what makes this difficult to type, and honestly hard to even verify if you use Ni in a high position, is that there's a throughline of pushing boundaries. Typically that's much more associated with high Ti or Fi, and based on what you've said about individualism and morality Fi seems more likely, but neither Ne or Se totally fit either given that you seem to value pragmatism and detail a lot more than an Ni dom would but talk a lot about concepts.

There's also this:

"I often feel like I'm feeling around in the fog for things like what is ok or not. I never believe I fully understand anyone, at all, especially as we are dynamic, so this truth sometimes also unsettles me, as I like to be able to predict what to expect. It is very rare that I am taken aback by someone's behavior or didn't expect it."

Within that one paragraph you both say that you very often don't have a good sense of what's acceptable and don't understand people; and also that you almost always expect people's behavior. That contradiction makes it pretty much impossible to come to conclusions.

My very tentative guess, actually, is that you're an ISFP and there's some external psychological factors you alluded to (note: no details needed, your mental health is your own business) that have made you perhaps less in tune with your Se, since Fi seemed to be more prevalent than any other function. Se-Ni does seem like the right axis, but I don't think Ni is your dominant function.

[cyhyr]

Whumpmas in July: Warmth

Fandom: Naruto

Rating: E

Pairing: Hatake Kakashi/Umino Iruka

WC: ~3940

Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply

Notes: frottage, therapy, safewords, cockwarming, oral sex, past abuse, love confessions

A/N: So, y'all know about my wonderful problem with terrible interpretations of prompts... Oops? Anyway, we'll return to our regularly scheduled whump-fest in the next fic. I think.

Follows "Look At Me"

For @whumpmasinjuly prompt list

Read on The Archive

~

They’re on a mission together when the idea comes to him. And he knows Kakashi isn’t going to approve, nor will he be interested in trying it; but a man can dream and it’s just the two of them on the road for five days and Iruka can admit that there’s probably something messed up with his head that he wants this but he can’t help it.

He remembers often, giving Kakashi that blowjob, and how it made him feel. He enjoyed having Kakashi in his mouth for the time he managed it, before he went and fucked it up by giving Kakashi his hair. They lay near each other at night in the forest and huddle together and oftentimes Iruka feels the outline of Kakashi’s dick against his ass and it’s… it’s a lot.

In a good way.

Fuck, but he wants Kakashi.

He just… doesn’t know how to go about having him without also triggering himself. It wasn’t until he started seeing a therapist, his first session two weeks ago, that he realized how much Mizuki ruined sex for him. He already knew he was damaged goods, but he hadn’t realized how much.

But this idea he’s got…

Maybe.

~

They’re two days from Konoha, huddled together in a shallow cave while a storm rages just outside. They could have kept going—a little rain and wind never hurt anyone—but Kakashi seemed to jump on the chance to settle down for the night early, and led them here. Iruka set up intricate traps and barrier seals around the mouth of the cave, assuring both himself and Kakashi that only the truly desperate will get into their hiding spot, let alone know they’re here. They dry out hair and clothes (Kakashi’s control with katon is brilliant, like the rest of him) and are simply enjoying sitting next to each other in front of a small fire.

Their vests and pouches remain within easy reach—they are still on a mission.

Iruka leans against Kakashi’s shoulder, contently dozing in and out. Kakashi has an Icha Icha book open in his palm, but hasn’t turned the page in over fifteen minutes. Their silence is odd in that it’s comfortable, but only if Iruka doesn’t think about how long they’ve each been quiet.

Kakashi breaks. “Iruka?”

“Hmm?”

“You… you would tell me… if I was doing something wrong. Right?”

Iruka’s eyes snap open and his happy doze fades fast. He lifts his head and shifts to face Kakashi. “Yes, of course, but what is this about? What’s—?” He stops and glances away, “Have I done something wrong?”

Kakashi hums. “You’ve just been a little distant for most of this mission. Since we passed through that hamlet on our first evening. I just—I don’t—”

“Kakashi, no,” Iruka reaches out for his hands, but at the last inch stops. He knows what this is about now; of course Kakashi picked up on his odd mood, his being-lost-in-thought. “Can I hold your hands?”

Kakashi nods, his blush barely noticeable in the firelight.

“Kakashi,” Iruka starts again with his partner’s hands in his own, “I’m sorry for seeming distant. I had an idea and it’s been plaguing me, but I wanted to wait until we got home to talk about it. I also—um—kind of want to discuss it with my therapist first.”

Kakashi brings their hands up to his masked lips and kisses Iruka’s fingers. “You will tell me, though?”

Iruka nods. “I want to, very much so. But I also need to. To talk it out with Rikona-sensei.”

Kakashi accepts the answer and tugs Iruka closer, which he does willingly. Iruka takes initiative and leans into the space behind Kakashi’s ear and mutters, “Can I...?”

Hands pull him to straddle Kakashi’s lap while a groaned ���Yes” rumbles against his chest. Iruka slips Kakashi’s mask down just enough to get to that sensitive spot and nips at it. Kakashi, at the same time, gently gropes and kneads his ass.

“I. Want. Uhh, there—Iruka, more. Still can’t believe you’re able to hide this ass in—ohh, fuck—standard uniform pants. Oh gods. Iruka.”

Iruka smiles against Kakashi’s neck as he reveals bare skin. He won’t pull down the mask entirely—that’s a limit Kakashi set and, gods, Kakashi’s so good at remembering his triggers that Iruka can do him the favor of remembering one limit. Kakashi is hard, and Iruka grinds down on his erection to get him to swear and squirm some more.

So long as Iruka stays on top, stays in control, these kinds of encounters don’t bother him. Mizuki never treated him like this, not exactly. The differences are enough.

He rolls his hips against Kakashi, a little faster, holding onto Kakashi’s shoulders for balance. “Kakashi,” he moans breathily, “wanna see you come.”

Kakashi pants. One hand leaves his ass and pulls down his mask, and then they’re kissing, mouths devouring each other and teeth clicking together. Iruka feels his own stirrings of arousal, finally, and groans deeper in his chest.

“Close,” Kakashi warns, breaking the kiss after a few minutes.

“Good. Why’s your hand not back on my ass?”

“I don’t. I mean.”

Iruka smirks and takes Kakashi’s hand, bringing it up to his face. Iruka normally likes Kakashi’s gloves. The texture, the smell, the implication of power… but tonight, he’s glad the gloves are off, over with their vests and pouches.

He slips Kakashi’s first finger into his mouth and hums.

“Oh, shit.”

He continues to hold Kakashi’s finger against his tongue until he’s finished and slumped forward, and then lets it slide free with a pop.

“Gods, Iruka,” Kakashi murmurs, wrapping his arms around him and pulling him as close as possible. “That was. Wow.”

Iruka giggles and replaces Kakashi’s mask, and then cards his fingers through silver hair. “Very articulate.”

Kakashi hums. He’s still glowing, and won’t want to be coherent for a few minutes.

“Can I return the favor?” he mutters against Iruka’s neck. Even during the afterglow, Kakashi thinks of him; it’s sweet.

Iruka says, “No thanks. I started to get there, but just wasn’t… y’know.”

Kakashi sighs. “Still wanna kill him.”

“I know. I appreciate the sentiment.”

He whines. “It’s not fair that I get all the orgasms in this relationship.”

Iruka laughs outright. “Even though I’m okay with giving them to you? And also not asking for reciprocation?”

Kakashi nuzzles him. “Wanna see you come, too,” he murmurs.

Someday.

~

“It’s good that you feel ready to take steps to move forward. But what steps are you prepared to take to prevent an episode?”

“Well, I thought a lot about it on the way home. Mizuki would always come to my place, so I thought first maybe a change in scenery will help—I’m gonna ask if we can do this at Kakashi’s place.”

“That’s a start. But many of your triggers are auditory.”

“And Kakashi’s never said anything to tip me into an episode since our, uh, second disaster. I trust him.”

“Trust is important. What else?”

“I’m also going to heavily condition my hair, and brush it out. So in case Kakashi snags it accidentally it won’t pull. I’m… I’m also going to request that he wash up beforehand. He and Mizuki smell… too similar, right now. I don’t want to risk it.”

“What about position?”

“That’s something I will need to discuss with Kakashi. I can’t—I can’t be on my knees for this, that’s just asking for an episode.”

“I agree. May I also suggest the two of you discuss hand signals for safe-words? You won’t be able to talk, after all.”

“Yes. I hadn’t thought of that. Thank you.”

“You’re welcome. I’m glad you have put so much thought into this.”

“I just need to prove to us I can move past this.”

“Hmm. Well, we’ve gone over time by ten minutes, but I think it’s worth it. I truly hope this works out for you, Iruka-sensei.”

~

Iruka is scrubbing the cabinet faces in his kitchen, waiting for Kakashi to get back from another mission. They’d gotten back, and the next day his partner had been sent out again—he had been angry at first, at the Counsel for requiring so much from Kakashi, and at himself for not understanding immediately that Kakashi requested the mission to give Iruka a little bit more time and space to work out that “odd” thought.

He’s worked it out. He talked it out with Rikona-sensei. He’s as prepared as he can be.

That’s why he’s cleaning.

Iruka can admit that he’s terrified this will go wrong. Against all of his thoughtful preparation, he could still dissociate. The more he goes under, the more likely it becomes that he just won’t resurface. Or he could resurface, but with new triggers—new ones relating to Kakashi instead of Mizuki.

Worst of all, Kakashi could just outright deny him and not even try. Iruka’s not sure how that situation would go, but it probably won’t be good.

At least. At least Kakashi’s due back today. He shouldn’t have to—

“Hello dear,” comes a voice from his kitchen window.

Iruka doesn’t hide the smile Kakashi’s voice drags out of him. He looks up from his spot on the floor and watches as his partner slinks through the window and over the sink and counter to join him on the floor.

“Sandals,” Iruka says. Kakashi takes his off and leaves to go put them in the genkan, and is back at his side quickly.

“You’re cleaning,” Kakashi comments. “Rough day with the ankle-biters?”

Iruka laughs. “No, nothing like that. I quite like this class, actually.”

“Then…?”

Iruka sets aside his sponge and sighs, standing up. “Right. Let me put this away, and then. Then we can talk.”

He leaves the room, taking as long as he dares knowing Kakashi is standing, arms crossed, in his kitchen. He dumps dirty water down the shower drain, sets the sponge in the bathroom sink to dry, and puts the bucket away in the bottom of the linen closet.

One more bracing breath, and then he leaves the bathroom.

“Okay.” He comes back into the kitchen; Kakashi hasn’t moved. “Would you like to sit?”

Kakashi holds a hand up. “First, please?” Iruka nods and gestures for him to speak. “Are you breaking up with me?”

“No.” Iruka’s proud of how even his tone is. “You may want to consider it, after this, but I don’t… it’s not what I want.”

Kakashi takes the chair beside Iruka’s usual one, and pulls down his mask. “I highly doubt whatever you have to say is going to change my feelings for you.”

Iruka sits. Smiles. “That’s sweet, but hold your judgement until you’ve heard me out.”

Kakashi leans forward and reaches out for his hands. Iruka gives them to him, letting Kakashi entwine their fingers together on the tabletop.

“I have something I want to try,” Iruka starts. “And I’ve given it a lot of thought, how to go about it without worrying about triggering an episode.”

Kakashi sits up a little straighter. “What do you want?”

Iruka’s face heats up, and he looks away for a moment to collect himself. “I… okay, so. I—before I fucked up that last time, when I was blowing you—”

“We agreed that it was both of our faults,” Kakashi glowers. “If you want to take any of the blame, I get an equal amount for being the instigating party.”

“Right. Sorry—”

“Iruka.”

Iruka closes his eyes and bites his lip. Deep breath. “Thank you, Kakashi, for reminding me.”

Kakashi brings his hand up to kiss his fingers. “You’re welcome. I’d like to hear more, but not if you’re going to be self-deprecating.”

“I. Yes. Okay. I can… I’ll try.”

Kakashi replaces their hands on the table and waits.

“So, the blowjob. When I was. Before I dissociated.” Iruka flushes hard. “I really enjoyed that.”

“As did I. But you also said that your performing oral sex is off limits, because of your trauma. Has that changed?” Kakashi is trying not to look excited, but Iruka can see the spark in his eye.

“Not exactly. I’d like to try something, um. Blowjob-adjacent?”

Kakashi waits.

“I’d like you to consider. Letting me… um.” Oh just thinking about it is getting his heart racing; his breathing speeds up.

“Iruka, are you with me?”

“Yes,” he answers immediately. “I’m not—slipping. It’s. Fuck,” he takes one hand back from Kakashi and presses his palm to his forehead. He decides to spit it all out as fast as he can. “I want your cock in my mouth again, but I want to just. Hold it. Does that make—”

Kakashi’s chair screeches as he pushes back from the table. He comes around the corner of the table and kneels in front of Iruka, looking up at him reverently. “You would do that for me?” he whispers.

Iruka puts his free hand against Kakashi’s cheek. “You’re the one who’d be doing me a favor,” he smirks. “I want this, Kakashi.”

“Now?”

Iruka shakes his head. “I mean, yes, but not-not here. And I have some preparation steps for both of us, to help prevent the chance of an episode.”

“Anything.”

~

Two hours later, it’s late and dark, and Iruka stands outside of Kakashi’s apartment door. The jōnin barracks are sparse, as most shinobi who attain this rank either are part of a clan, make enough to purchase their own quarters, or find better housing with spouses or roommates. As it is, Kakashi is the only one living on his floor, and has been able to secure the apartments above and below him to stay empty as well.

Iruka knocks. He doesn’t have to wait long for Kakashi to open the door.

“Hello dear.”

Iruka smiles and leans in to accept Kakashi’s kiss to his forehead. He’s led inside, and once the door shuts, he reaches up and starts untying his hair.

Hands gently take his elbows and Kakashi crowds him from behind. “Leave it up for now?”

Iruka tightens the tie again, then turns around in the circle of Kakashi’s arms. “Have you thought about it?” he asks.

Kakashi hums. “Can I kiss you? I won’t get to for a while.”

Iruka leans in and tugs gently at his mask with one finger. “Gotta take this off first,” he says.

“Go ahead.”

Oh. Iruka cups Kakashi’s jaw with both hands and slowly eases the fabric down over his nose and mouth. His face bared to the room, Iruka traces his lips with a fingertip. “Can I—?”

“Please, Iruka.”

Lips meet and moans rumble in both of their throats. Iruka keeps his hands on Kakashi’s face, revelling in the bare skin he was allowed to—Oh his chest aches in such a wonderful way.

Kakashi runs one hand up his spine while the other stays around his waist. Iruka smirks into the kiss as Kakashi traces his hand back down, past his waist, his hips, and finally settling on the curve of his ass.

“Someday,” Iruka murmurs into his mouth, and groans at Kakashi’s harsh kneading.

“Best ass in Konoha,” Kakashi whispers. “In the world.”

Iruka laughs outright, tipping his head back. The laugh turns into another moan as Kakashi kisses his neck and jaw. He lets Kakashi lead as they start walking over to the bed.

Then they fall gently, slowly, onto the mattress. Iruka keeps his eyes open; there’s a different visual stimulus here, Kakashi’s studio being so different from his own bedroom. He’s urged to lay beside Kakashi, still in his comforting embrace.

They kiss forever, until Iruka feels comfortable exploring Kakashi’s body with his own hands, until he closes his eyes and rests his head back against the pillow and lets Kakashi kiss him all over, tapping and tugging at various pieces of clothing to ask if he can remove them.

They’re both down to their underwear when Iruka starts to feel the faint prickling of panic at the edge of his awareness. He pulls Kakashi back up to him and kisses him deeply, slipping his tongue into Kakashi’s mouth and feeling the scar across his eye.

“How are you feeling, dear?” Kakashi asks.

“Hmm. Almost wanna just keep making out with you all night,” Iruka says.

“We can do that,” Kakashi offers. “If you want to wait on—”

“Oh no. I’m getting that monster back on my tongue tonight.” Iruka kisses along Kakashi’s jaw, hunting for his weak spot. He probably can’t reach it from this position. Judging from the rumbling moan in his chest, Kakashi doesn’t mind his trying. Or his words.

“Shit, alright. Sit up a moment.”

Iruka collects himself up onto his knees and waits while Kakashi repositions himself to sit against the headboard, his legs apart. He crooks a finger in Iruka’s direction and yes he’s helpless but to settle between Kakashi’s legs and lean in to kiss him again. Iruka drags his mouth across Kakashi’s chest, licks at his stomach, and finally lays himself down and breathes in Kakashi—bitter, dark; he wonders briefly if Kakashi had followed his request to wash up before this, so the faint scent that reminded him once of Mizuki would be covered by soap smell.

Kakashi’s musk doesn’t flash a threat of Mizuki now.

He lays his head on Kakashi’s thigh and waits. Kakashi pets Iruka’s hair with one hand—very gently—and fondles himself with the other. Watching Kakashi go from semi-hard to fully erect in front of him is maddening; he feels his own dick respond, and the heat in his core starts to build. He licks his lips and shifts closer just a bit.

Kakashi stops him with a hand on his shoulder. “Wait, just. Just a little bit more.”

Iruka whines.

Kakashi stops. “Iruka?”

“I’m fine. I’m great. Please, please keep touching yourself,” he whimpers. “Gods, keep touching yourself.”

“Fuck.”

Kakashi pulls his cock out, finally, and strokes himself. Iruka’s lips part involuntarily, beginning to pant. He shifts his hips against the sheets, but keeps his arms still around Kakashi’s hips and his head steady on his thigh. His mouth dries out quickly with his panting.

“Please, Kakashi, please. I-I want you so bad please—”

“What do you do if I check in with you and you’re okay?”

Iruka taps his hip once.

“And if you ever need to stop?”

He taps twice. “Or I can just pull away.”

“Right. And if you find yourself slipping?”

Tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-tap-

Kakashi chuckles. “Alright, alright.” He holds his cock at the base and guides Iruka forward with his other hand at the back of his head. He doesn’t push, doesn’t hold him, doesn’t grab him; and Iruka goes for it happily, sliding his lips around the head and moaning along with Kakashi at the first touch of tongue to cock.

He sucks on the head for a moment, breathing deeply and focusing himself. When he feels ready, he slides down, bit by bit, hearing Kakashi’s harsh panting echoing in the room.

“Little more, that’s it. Fuck, beautiful—c’mon, c’mon, just—oh, gods.”

Kakashi’s cock hits the back of his throat. Iruka pulls back, just a second, breathes, and on his exhale sinks down the rest of the way.

“Shit-shit-shit, fuck, Iruka, so g—ah, shit, your mouth yes.”

He lays his head back on Kakashi’s thigh and lets his partner run his mouth above him. He’s got cock comfortably settled down his throat and yeah, they’ll have to change the sheets because Iruka’s already drooling around his mouthful something terrible—something wonderful—and by the time he’s ready to come back there’ll likely be a small puddle.

It doesn’t seem that Kakashi will mind.

He finally collects himself to quiet down, still hard in his throat though. It’s nice. Kakashi pets his hair again, and this time also pulls the tie free from his hair. He’s careful, so damn careful, and then Iruka’s hair is loose around his face and he doesn’t care.

He doesn’t care because he’s got better things to focus on.

He’s in Kakashi’s bed, with Kakashi’s scent all around him, and Kakashi’s bittersweet cock on his tongue, and Kakashi’s words echoing around him, and he’s hard.

Oh, he’s hard.

If he shifts he’ll choke. He can’t take any relief for how turned on he is. That’s… that’s okay. He’s not doing this to get off. He’s doing it to prove he can.

And he is.

And he does.

Kakashi checks in with him every ten minutes. He stays present the whole time. It’s so. It’s perfect. The third time, Kakashi tells him it’s been half an hour, and Iruka hums and glances up at him questioningly.

“I’d. I’d really like to come, Iruka. But I also want to wait until you’re ready.”

He sighs through his nose and carefully pulls off of Kakashi’s cock. He sucks on the head for a minute, listening to Kakashi swear and pant some more as he swallows and lets his throat relax. When he pulls off the rest of the way, he noses at the hard, reddened length and says, voice wrecked, “Come, then. If you’d like.”

Kakashi wastes no time in grabbing his spit-slick dick and beginning to pump furiously. Iruka sits up on his knees to watch, pressing the heel of his own hand against his erection and breathing heavily to keep himself under control.

“You too, please,” Kakashi whimpers. “Can I see you? Can I—oh, can I blow you? I’ll be just as-as-fuck, Iruka, please, I want you too; wanna see you, too.”

“I know,” Iruka says. His shoulders are heaving with the force of keeping his breath steady. “But this was for you.”

“But—”

“Oh, my Kakashi,” Iruka murmurs. “Just. Let go. Let me see you. Let me know I d-did good.”

“Fuck, Iruka.”

“Come, love.”

He does. Oh, he comes, hard and loud and wet, streaking up his chest and dripping over his hand and gods does Iruka have the urge to kiss him through his afterglow. He inches forward on his knees and reaches past Kakashi’s shoulder to the washcloth they’d prepared before, sitting on the windowsill. Iruka gently wipes it across Kakashi’s chest and groin, and then takes his hand and swipes it with the cloth, too. He tosses the washcloth across the room to the sink, and leans forward to press his forehead against Kakashi’s.

“Can I—?”

“Please kiss me,” Kakashi whimpers at the same time.

He does. Kakashi’s arms embrace him loosely and he holds Kakashi’s face in one hand and braces his other palm against his chest. His heart is racing, pounding.

“You called me—”

“I do.” Iruka murmurs, pulling away so he can look into Kakashi's eye. “You’re the best thing that’s ever happened to me, tied with Naruto.”

“For different—”

“You know what I mean.” Iruka chuckles. “Yes, for different reasons.”

“Does this mean I can get you off now?”

Iruka shakes his head. “I just wanna enjoy your glow with you. You’re so precious like this.”

“I like it,” Kakashi mutters. “Being yours.”

“I like having you,” Iruka cards his fingers through Kakashi’s hair. “I… I love you.”

Kakashi says, “I love you, too.”

“You don’t have to—”

“I’ve loved you for months, Iruka. I’m just. Scared.”

“Don’t be. You’ve got me.”

They breathe through the glow. They’ll have to change the sheet, and Iruka hasn't yet confirmed with Kakashi if it’s okay if he stays the night. But he’s happy, and he’s proven to himself that he’s on the mend, and Mizuki’s hold on him has loosened just that little bit more.

[a-small-batch-of-dragons]

Pretty Voice

Read on Ao3

Warnings: self-doubt, self-esteem issues, all canon-typical. these are just some angsty bois sometimes, huh. other than that, none. this thing’s pretty fluffy. 

Pairings: Logince. Can be platonic or romantic you choose, I don’t know anymore. 

Word Count: 6367

The Imagination has a theatre. Roman holds concerts regularly. The others are invited to perform but Roman is the star. Today, it’s just him and Logan. Logan’s never wanted to perform. He sits a few rows back from the stage so he can see better and so his eardrums don’t get blown out. Also so Roman can’t really see Logan.

In other words: this isn't the first time Logan's made himself hard to see. It isn't the first time he's struggled to be heard either. Maybe it's time Roman did something about that.

The Imagination has a theatre. Roman holds concerts regularly. The others are invited to perform but Roman is the star. Today, it’s just him and Logan. Logan’s never wanted to perform. He sits a few rows back from the stage so he can see better and so his eardrums don’t get blown out. Also so Roman can’t really see Logan.

It’s been about half an hour. Logan’s been clapping after every song, offering honest feedback which just happens to be very complimentary. Roman adores his compliments, they’re so unique and genuine. Logan did confess a few songs ago that he is having trouble keeping up with how incredible the performances have been, always finding something new to compliment all the same. And yet when he finishes quite a spectacular rendition about ‘From Now On,’ Logan’s silent. No clapping either. In fairness, the end of the song does kind of fade out, so…but Roman thinks it’s something else.

“Well, if you didn’t like the song,” he huffs melodramatically, perching his hands on his hips, “you could’ve just said so.”

His joking demeanor fades when Logan startles terribly.

“Huh? Oh, oh, my apologies,” Logan stammers, “I just…I fear I lost focus. It was…an incredible rendition.”

Roman squints a little. It’s really…how has he not noticed that it’s pretty hard to see Logan? Has he really been so involved in the performance?

Well, he has to admit, it’s pretty intoxicating. Especially with the acoustics they’ve got in the theatre.

“…are you sure you don’t want to try,” he asks, gesturing to the stage, “just a little song? Just one?”

Logan shakes his head. “I’m perfectly alright.”

“One verse,” he bargains, “a chorus?”

“I couldn’t hope to follow you.”

“Well yes, I am magnificent, but that doesn’t mean you can’t be too.”

Logan smiles and shakes his head again. Roman frowns, coming right to the edge of the stage and crouching down so he’s closer to Logan’s eye-line.

“Are you alright?”

“Hmm? Yes, I am perfectly alright, thank you.”

“And here I thought Deceit was the living lie detector.”

Logan shifts. “Well, it follows that you would have some sense as well. You’re an actor, aren’t you?”

“Flattery will get you everywhere.”

“‘Focus on issues or focus on me,’ as I recall, is one of your favorite catchphrases.”

Yes, it is, but Roman would rather focus on the issues right now. “Come here.”

“What?”

He smiles, beckoning with a finger. “Come here.”

Logan does, standing up and walking down the aisle. Roman waits until he’s fairly close to stand up and jump down from the stage.

“And…up we go!”

Laughing as Logan squeaks in surprise, grabbing onto his shoulders, Roman picks him up and sets him on the stage. He rests his forearms on either side of Logan’s thighs, keeping a light grip on his hips. Even with the height of the stage and the slight downhill slope of the aisle, Roman’s still a little bit taller than Logan, so he takes a step back until they’re eye level.

“And…perfect,” he says, and leans forward until they’re almost nose to nose, grinning like the cat that got the cream. “Hello.”

“…um, hello.” Logan glances around, still trying to work out why he’s no longer on the floor. “Why am I up here?”

So I can cuddle you while I ask you what’s wrong, of course. “Well, I figured shouting across the theatre perhaps wasn’t the best idea.”

Logan raises an eyebrow. “I believe ‘projecting’ is the correct term.”

“So you have been paying attention.”

“I do have some theatre experience. I am a part of Thomas, after all.”

Roman gasps, mock-offended. “And yet you still won’t sing for me?”

“Believe it or not, my prince, I have no desire to humiliate myself like that.”

Oh, we’re using pet-names, now, are we? Well, lucky for Logan, Roman’s an expert.

“Dearest,” he coos, “you really shouldn’t sell yourself short like that. After all—“ he runs a thumb over Logan’s pink cheek, smiling— “sweetheart, you’re lovely.”

Logan shuts their eyes, making Roman chuckle as they bury their face in their hands. “Did you have to do that?”

“Do what, my sweet?”

“You,” Logan says weakly, and oh, he must be flustered if he’s so far gone from his typical articulation, “with the pet-names.”

“Well, darling, you did start it.” Logan shakes his head, only to blush brighter when Roman winks at him. “And what kind of prince would I be if I didn’t flirt with every dashing fellow I came across?”

“You’d be you,” Logan says, “isn’t that enough?”

Roman’s smile falters and before he can stop himself it slips out.

“…is it?”

Logan frowns, blush receding as he tilts his head. “Of course it is, Roman. You…you are an incredible force. Your work ethic rivals that of anyone else, including my own. Your resilience is something to be admired as well, not to mention how hard you work to keep Thomas as the center of your efforts. And you…your abilities…and how selflessly you share them with us…”

Logan takes a deep breath and smiles. “Of course it’s enough, Roman, you’re enough.”

Roman may have the high ground when it comes to flirting, but he has nothing on Logan’s sincere eloquence. All he can do is bathe in the words, try and soak up every single bit of it Logan gives him.

“…you believe me,” Logan murmurs, “right?”

“You really are too sweet to me,” Roman says finally, “aren’t you, little bear?”

He’s rewarded with an adorably confused head tilt. “‘Little bear?’”

“I like to think of you like a little bear,” Roman says, regaining some of his confidence as Logan starts to blush again. “Because you’re an excellent cuddler, just like a teddy bear. You are unmatched in your ability to comfort the rest of us—though don’t tell Patton I said that—and you are fiercely protective of your cubs.”

“And with this jacket—“ Roman pats the thick, fluffy, light brown jacket just about swallowing Logan’s form he’d been given when Roman noticed him shivering in the chill of the theater— “you’re just like a fuzzy little teddy bear!”

To prove his point, he flips up the hood, miscalculating just how floppy it is and smacking Logan in the face with it, sending them both into a fit of giggles.

“And bears like honey. Honey is sweet. And you,” Roman says, leaning close enough to bump their noses together, “are very, very sweet.”

He chuckles when Logan makes a frustrated noise and pulls the hood further over his flushed little face. They’re so cute.

“Aww,” he teases, tugging at the hood, “don’t hide from me, little bear! Let me see you!”

A brief tug-of-war later—in which Roman totally doesn’t cheat by sneaking his hand down and scribbling his nails over his knee—and he pulls the hood away, revealing an adorably flushed Logan pouting at him.

“There you are,” he says, reaching forward to boop his nose. “If you don’t like it, Logan, I can come up with another one.”

“No,” Logan mumbles, “I…I like it.”

Roman takes pity on the blushing mess on the stage in front of him, helping Logan tug the collar of the jacket a little snugger around his neck. “Little bear it is, then.”

Logan, meanwhile, is having a crisis.

Because Roman couldn’t just invite him to spend some one on one time in the Imagination, no. He had to sing to him in the most incredible voice he’s ever heard and then ask if Logan wanted to sing. He had to ask Logan if he was alright in that soft voice that he knows he likes. And he had to pick Logan up like he weighed nothing and set him on the stage, curving his body around him like he was something to be protected.

And he had to give him a personalized nickname and tease him about how cute he is.

And he had to be really, really attractive.

He’s right here, he’s touching you, and you still want more? He made up a special little nickname for you and you aren’t satisfied? What else do you want?

Don’t burden him with your problems too. He’s got his own stuff to deal with. He’s got more of a right to be upset about these things than you do.

You’re not even supposed to be upset in the first place.

“Little bear?”

Logan shakes his head. “You’re going to use that every chance you get, aren’t you?”

“Well, that and depending on how you feel about pet names—“

Why did you nod, you useless gay?

Roman’s smile just widens. “Then yes. Yes, I am. So, my sweet little bear—“ internal screaming can commence now, thank you— “what’s got you looking like someone stole all your honey?”

“I don’t…I don’t want…if you are not in a good headspace—“

Rolling his eyes fondly, Roman resettles his grip on Logan’s hips. “Gorgeous, if you keep being as sweet as you are, I am going to get a toothache.”

And Logan thinks he can brush it off, toss some meaningless barb back that’ll either get Roman to talk about something else or at least flirt with him to pass the time instead, but then Roman says: “you can talk to me, little bear,” in a voice so gentle it makes his chest ache.

Where do I start? How do I start? What if I say the wrong thing? Do I even remember how to do this?

What if he changes his mind?

This is stupid, just talk. You know how. Just say something. Anything.

“Sorry, I am…not the most articulate right now.”

“If the bountiful praise you lavished upon me earlier is any indication, I’m afraid I’m going to have to disagree with you.”

Well, there goes that excuse.

Why is this so hard for you? He’s not a mind-reader, you will actually have to talk to him. Isn’t that what you’ve been preaching, you hypocrite?

Do you even have anything to say?

You’re not just going to make something up for attention, are you?

Or is that what you’re doing now? Stalling for attention?

What’s the point of you having a voice if you’re not going to use it?

Now you’re just wasting his time.

The lightest touch on the side of his head and Logan startles terribly. Roman shushes him, finishing tucking a strand of hair out of the way.

“…you don’t have to tell me if you don’t want to.”

“No!”

Roman blinks, taken aback by the shout. Shit. Logan curls his fists in the coat.

“No,” he mumbles again, “I…”

Great job. Say something.

Roman watches Logan war with himself, growing more and more worried as his eyes squeeze shut, his mouth opening and closing with no words coming out. When he hasn’t moved for a few minutes, he racks his brain for a way to help.

“Once upon a time,” he murmurs finally, smiling gently when Logan’s gaze flicks to his, “there was a forest. A small forest, not too big, where all sorts of creatures lived. Cats, snakes, spiders, frogs, owls, dragons, bears…all sorts.”

As he talks, he rubs soothing circles into their hips with his thumbs.

“And they all had secrets, because everybody does, and they all kept their secrets in different places. At the bottom of their ponds, tucked away in their burrows, hidden their nests…”

Roman steps closer, bracing most of his weight on one arm, wrapping it around Logan’s back to hold them close.

“Where does the little bear keep their secrets?”

He takes his free hand and carefully pushes the flaps of the jacket aside, laying it gently on Logan’s stomach.

“What about here, in their belly? Where all the sweet honey goes? Maybe if I poke it a bit—“ Roman gently prods at a few spots, smiling when Logan giggles and squirms— “the secrets will come out. No, no, that’s a giggle. Maybe over here? On their sides? No, those are more giggles. Hmm…well, this may just be a giggle button.”

A little squeeze here, a little scribble there. Roman smiles when Logan’s face starts to glow that lovely pink again, his giggles still flowing out. He’s more than happy to stand here and lightly tickle Logan until he feels better, but when Logan starts gently batting at his chest and shoulders, trying to push him away, he relents.

“Hmm,” he murmurs, “well, I think there are only giggles in here. Let’s just…pat them a bit to calm them back down.”

He rubs his tummy firmly to soothe away any lingering tingles, then raises his hand to lay over Logan’s upper chest.

“What about here, in their chest? Right here…next to their heart. Oh, I can feel it,” he says, pressing his hand a little firmer, feeling the reassuring thud, “it’s a strong heart. Which makes sense, after all, for our little bear. But…”

Roman searches Logan’s face. Not yet.

“…no. No secrets here.”

Moving slowly, slow enough that Logan can stop him if he wants, Roman tucks his hand against his neck, feeling his pulse against his hand.

“What about here,” he says, “in their throat? Right next to these lovely vocal chords they’re so shy about, maybe if they sing a little, their secrets will come tumbling out?”

It makes the tiniest smile come to Logan’s face but he shakes his head. Roman pouts, unable to keep up the façade when it makes the smile grow.

“Alright then. No. No secrets here.”

Roman takes his hand away, stroking down the fluffy sleeve of the jacket, feeling the soft material tickle his palm. He slides it down to the warm wood of the stage, straightening his posture—the only straight thing on him—so he can lean against the stage between Logan’s knees, hands going back to his hips.

“Well,” he says softly, “I don’t know where else to look, little bear.”

Please, Logan, let me help you.

A trembling hand takes his, guiding it up, up, up to press his fingertips carefully to the underside of Logan’s chin.

“…here? Under your tongue? Oh…oh, I can feel them…there’s so many, you’re so tense here…”

He carefully rubs and presses, feeling how tight Logan’s jaw is. Logan swallows heavily and Roman feels his tongue move.

“Does it hurt, little bear?”

Shake.

“No? Are you sure?”

He won’t meet his eyes. Oh, Logan…

“Well, it can’t be comfortable, holding them all like that. Is…is this why your head feels so heavy? Here,” he says, cupping his chin properly, coaxing him to rest his head in his hand, “let me hold it for a little.”

That’s it, he smiles as Logan’s head sinks into his hand. He gives it a soft squeeze.

“Now, why don’t we try and see if we can make this a little easier for you, little bear? In fact, I…I think I can feel one…right here.”

He takes his other hand and mimes plucking something from the air in front of him.

“I think it wants to come out.”

He moves his hand away, slowly pulling the secret away, drawing it up and out. Logan’s mouth opens, yes, come on, you can do it…

“…I’m scared.”

Roman rubs his fingers together and sprinkles the harmful secret away. “And…poof. It’s gone.”

He comes back, resting his hand on Logan’s knee. “Good job, little bear. And it’s okay to be scared, I promise. And I’m right here, I won’t let anything hurt you.”

Logan’s worried little brow relaxes and it makes the ache in his chest release, just a little. Then he feels Logan’s chin wobble.

“Oh…oh, here’s another one…feel it?” He plucks another one from the air. “I’ve got it, don’t worry, here we go…”

“…I…”

“…say it,” he coaxes, “go on.”

“…I haven’t…done this…in…so long, I…I’m not…I…don’t…”

Logan swallows. Roman brings his hand a little closer to their face but he doesn’t let go.

“I don’t know if I remember how to do this.”

“That was a stubborn one,” Roman says softly, “wasn’t it?”

Logan nods. Roman turns to address his hand, still clutching the pesky secret.

“You’ve been living there for a long time, haven’t you? Well, I’ll have you know that’s quite rude,” he scolds. “You’ve caused my little bear an awful lot of discomfort. Now begone.”

He swats it away with a disgusted expression, softening when he feels the low rumble of a laugh in his other hand. Looking back, he sees Logan looking…a little better, at least.

“You feel a little lighter, my dear,” he observes. Logan nods. “Good.”

Taking Logan’s chin in both hands, he rubs his fingers along his jaw. “Let me see…feel around a little… any more loose ones?”

Anything else you’d like to tell me? Or talk about?

“…one.”

Roman nods. “Alright. Let me see…”

He waves his hand a bit in the air in front of them, as if he’s searching for something to grab onto. Finally, he picks a spot and forms a pinch.

“Ah. Here. Oh…oh, this one…” He gently tugs on it. “This one feels heavy. Like there’s a lot of it. Oh, you poor thing, shall we try and see if we can get this to stop hurting you?”

This time, Logan doesn’t hesitate and nods.

“Let’s see…it feels quite long…hefty. So, how about this: I will start pulling out the bits that feel a little loose already, and whenever it starts to come, you just say it for me, alright?”

Logan nods.

“Wonderful.”

With that, he begins to pull, miming retrieving a long, magician’s scarf out of Logan’s mouth. When his chin starts to wobble again against his hand, Roman frowns.

“Putting up a fight, are we? Well, this looks like a job for two hands.”

Standing at his full height, he starts doing the motion with two hands. One of the biggest parts of improv, apart from ‘yes and,’ is object work, and he coils the scarf neatly on the floor next to him, making sure he’s still pulling it out of Logan’s mouth, walking his hands along the scarf.

Logan wants to. He really wants to. But the words just won’t come out. So much so that when he opens his mouth his breath literally catches in his throat.

“Oh…oh dear,” Roman says worriedly, tugging a little, “it’s…it’s stuck.”

He mimes trying to pull it away with both hands but gets nowhere.

“It’s…it’s really stuck. I don’t want to hurt you but it’s being very stubborn.”

He frowns, keeping one hand tightly around the secret and using the other to cup Logan’s chin again.

“Maybe I can make it loose back here…maybe if I feel around…find where it’s stuck.”

The searching motions of his fingers under Logan’s chin make him fidget a little. Roman sees, the corner of his mouth quirking up.

“Maybe I can tickle it loose, hmm? If I tickle very gently,” he murmurs, scribbling his fingers lightly all over the sensitive skin, smiling as it coaxes more giggles out of him, “can I tickle it loose? No, no, that’s just getting me giggles. You really do have a lot of giggle buttons, little bear. Oh, oh no, it’s going back in, well, that’s not going to work.”

He stops, cupping Logan’s chin firmly, letting him calm back down. Poor thing doesn’t even have the strength to look embarrassed or flustered, no, he just looks frustratingly hopeless. If he wasn’t holding his chin, Roman’s sure Logan’s head would drop right to his chest and he’d never want to raise it again.

“…oh, little bear, is it hurting you?”

“Yes.”

“There’s a bit…hmm…darling, will you listen to me for a moment?”

Logan nods.

“Close your eyes. I have this pesky thing, it won’t be going anywhere.”

The sheer amount of trust it must take for Logan to close his eyes, resting almost the entire weight of his head in Roman’s hand, makes Roman a little light-headed. But he has a job to do here, so he comes forward until his nose is just about brushing Logan’s forehead.

“You are not making me do this,” he whispers, “I’m here because I want to be here. I will keep your secrets safe, I promise.”

He lowers his head, pressing their foreheads together.

“You don’t have to be afraid, Logan. Not with me.”

Logan opens his eyes. It pinches in the little pouch where his chin meets his neck.

“…for as long as I can remember…”

Roman pulls the scarf out once and grabs it again.

“…I…”

His hand moves an inch.

“…have…”

Another inch.

“Are you seriously going to do that word by word?”

“If that’s what it takes.”

Deep breath.

“…for as long as I can remember, I have never been a part of any kind of relationship where it does not hinge on how useful I am.”

Logan closes his eyes, feeling Roman’s hand leave his chin.

“I…I am a function that is indispensable but not one that is wanted.”

Swallows. Keeps going. The pinch doesn’t let up.

“My entire being is based on how much I know. What I can do. And…and if I cannot do the thing I am meant to do, I…I cannot exist. But there are so many things I cannot do in order to do the things I need to do.”

The pinch still doesn’t let up.

“And I…I let it happen.”

Has silence always been this deafening?

“Because I have no choice.”

The pinch spreads, turns to a clench.

“…I am useful. I can explain things to you when you need them explained. I can help you sort through things that you do not fully understand. I can provide solutions to problems when they arise.”

He tugs the jacket tighter around himself, trying to huddle in a cocoon of safety.

“I…I am Logic. I am Logic. That is my job.”

The words curl on his tongue and taste bitter. He briefly wonders if this is what Janus feels like.

“But it is not only my job when it is convenient,” he spits, “it is always my job. And I…I have to be able to do my job. B-because if I don’t, you’ll—“

He swallows heavily.

“…I understand that…there are many things that you and the others do that I do not understand. And I understand that I am…convenient. And when I am not, I—you—“

He huffs. “I understand that I do not understand.”

It’s hot. It’s too hot. The jacket is sweltering, trapping him now. But he can’t let go, can’t move. Can only speak.

“And I cannot understand. Because that would require me to have emotion. And I cannot have emotion. I am Logic. Logic cannot have emotion because logic falls apart when emotions come into play. But I can’t just be Logic!”

It comes out in a horrible burst of agony, ripping up his throat as it comes out.

It h-hurts.

It hurts.

“…you do not require me or Logic.”

He curls into the jacket, not caring about how much it hurts.

“I…I know that logic must always have a place. I know that sometimes you would rather not listen to Logic. But s-sometimes…”

The others don’t always want Logic. They don’t always want Logan either.

“I cannot be human,” he whispers, “I cannot be held to the same standard as a human.”

I am a being of Logic. I am the Logical Side.

“…I cannot have the same luxuries as a human.”

Emotion is a luxury I cannot always afford.

“…I have tried. For you and for Thomas, to…be Logic.”

They didn’t see. They never saw.

“And it has worked. It has worked so well that I—I—”

The line between Logan and Logic blurs so much that it is near impossible to tell where one ends and the other begins. But now…

Now when Logic has been silenced, not even Logan can speak.

“…I am Logic.”

Who is Logan?

“I…I know I have feelings, but I…I can’t. I’m not—Logic is not equipped to deal with them. I know I have to be Logic, but I…I can’t.”

Logan was being an inconvenience. Because he was taking more time than I should be. Because everyone else was ready to move on…and Logan wasn’t. Logic was.

“…and I will stay. Because you need Logic.”

Logic would stop talking during a conversation because no one wanted to hear Logic. Logic didn’t care about my emotions, only how I could help them deal with theirs.

“Because you have always needed L-Logic.”

Logic. Logic. Logic.

There is no room for Logan.

I am so scared, so scared of not being useful that I let other people introduce me. Because you would know how I could be the most useful.

I must be useful.

I must be Logic.

There is no room for Logan.

They do not want to listen to Logic. They silence Logic.

They do not even know Logan exists.

“If…if I was smart…you kept me. If I was hardworking, you kept me. If I was useful, you kept me.”

And when I wasn’t enough, they replaced me.

I can’t be Logan. Not here.

…can I be Logic?

Will that be enough?

“…if I’m Logic, will you keep me?”

Silence.

His hands are balled so tightly in his jacket they ache.

He can’t remember the last time he’s talked so much.

He can’t remember the last time Roman was so silent.

What…what has he done?

“I’m—I’m sorry—“

“Don’t you dare, Logan.”

Logan’s head snaps up in horror. Roman stares at him, his fists clenched tightly at his sides. A blazing fury burns in his gaze and Logan shrinks, trying to make himself smaller.

“Don’t you dare finish that sentence,” he repeats in a low voice.

Is…are those…tear stains?

Roman tried. He tried to just pull the secret out, lend a sympathetic ear, return the favor Logan had given him so many times. But he couldn’t. Tears had welled up by the time he’d mentioned the others only keep him around because he’s convenient. He can’t…he can’t imagine…having to stifle something so integral to himself like emotions, being kept around only because he was useful, being tokenized and objectified over and over and over and reminded that he wasn’t enough on his own…

And not being able to sing? To do all the things that Roman can do, is permitted to do as Creativity?

“Oh, oh, sweetheart,” he manages to gasp, “come here—“

He’s sobbing. He’s sobbing, the tears bubbling up as he reaches desperately for Logan, for his face that…that isn’t crying at all, how can he go through this much and not cry, do…can he not cry anymore?

That only makes him cry harder.

“You’re—you’re wanted, Logan, so—so much, I want you, I need you to—to stay, yes, we’ll—we’ll keep you, oh, darling—“

He understands. He understands so much and it hurts because there are so many secrets nested inside that big secret and it’s so much and he’s so proud of Logan, for surviving, for telling him—

He needs Logan closer. He tugs him off the stage, into his arms, holding him up, holding him close, scooping him into a tight hug.

And oh, it’s exactly the way a heroic knight should hug. Strong. Powerful. Protective. It’s safe as Logan clings to him. He feels safe. Cared for.

Loved?

It’s only when Roman goes to cup Logan’s head that he realizes he’s not really holding that much of Logan’s weight in his arms. Instead, he realizes Logan’s clinging to him just as tightly, their bodies curving into each other as Logan holds himself up by his legs wrapped over his hips.

“…well,” he murmurs, “aren’t you strong?”

“I can hold my own.”

“I know you can, Logan,” he says, pulling back a little so he can see Logan’s face, “but it’s okay if you don’t always want to.”

Logan looks at him, one of the few times where this means he has to look down, a soft smile on his face. “It’s fine for you too.”

Roman can’t help but shake his head in disbelief as he sets Logan—gently!—back on the stage. “How are you already back to taking care of me?”

Logan shrugs. “Instinct? Habit?”

Useful. Right.

They all need to work on that, to work on this, for Logan. Not for Logic, not for Thomas, for Logan.

“In all seriousness,” Logan mumbles, “thank you.”

“No,” Roman corrects, his arms still tightly around Logan, “thank you.”

And when Logan looks up he’s so hopeful that Roman has to lean forward and rub their noses together.

“Is…is this how it f-feels?”

Oh.

Oh.

“Yes, Logan,” Roman breathes, trying to push the feelings across that little gap between them, “this is how it feels.”

“…I…I—“

“You don’t have to say anything, dear heart,” Roman soothes, “truly.”

Logan’s eyes drift closed and Roman frowns, worried when he takes another deep breath and squeezes his eyes tighter.

“…is there anything I can do to make it up to you?”

“Make what up?”

“Pay you back then.”

“For what?”

“Roman…”

He relents. Of course he relents. Even if the question made him want to wrap Logan up in a warm blanket and tell him he’ll be safe forever, or leave them with the others and grab his brother and go teach whatever nasty beastly voices in Logan’s head caused this a lesson, he relents. He understands how hard this must’ve been for Logan.

“…yes, there is something you can do for me.”

Logan looks up and the plea in his expression is almost enough to break Roman’s heart all over again.

“When you say you don’t understand,” Roman says softly, still tracing idle patterns over Logan’s back, “some of the things we do, can you give me an example?”

“P-Patton bakes,” Logan manages, “I…I have seen Remus draw. Virgil listens to music or he…he runs. Janus dances.”

He gestures around the theater. “You sing.”

Roman smiles gently. “Will you sing something for me?”

Logan’s breath catches and he tenses, despite Roman’s efforts to soothe him. “…it’s not going to be any good.”

“Who said anything about being good?”

He reaches up to cup Logan’s face in his hands.

“I don’t care if you’re too loud. I don’t care if you’re too quiet. I don’t care if it’s too high. I don’t care what key you’re in,” he says firmly.

Oh, he wants to go and make sure whatever put that unsure look on his face never happened.

“You don’t have to be afraid,” he murmurs instead, “it’s just you and me. I want to hear you, little bear. And to prove to yourself that you can.”

A few moments later and Logan breaks out into the smallest of smiles.

“…so what am I singing?”

“Oh, no, that’s not how this works,” Roman says with a smile, “you choose the song, dearest.”

“I…”

“I don’t care what it is. It doesn’t have to be some big, meaningful choice. I’m not here for Logic, I’m here for Logan.”

He knows how hard it can be to be alone on stage, so he steps back to boost himself up to sit next to them.

“…would it help if I sing with you?”

“No.”

Roman looks down at the floor. Even though his feet can just about touch, it…it looks miles away. And he should know how hard it is to pick a song to sing, especially when he hasn’t sung in a while. There’s just so many to choose from, and if you’re scared about what you’re going to be able to sing, then…

Perhaps this was too much to ask.

For a moment, he thinks his phone’s going off, or someone’s computer outside the Imagination, playing an a cappella version of ‘Bright Lights and Cityscapes.’

Then…then he looks.

Logan’s voice, not quite polished, a little worn, makes him cry all over again. It’s just this side of warm, full of longing and heartbreak and barely restrained sorrow and so, so good.

He finishes the song and Roman immediately wants to clamor for another one.

“…you have been holding out on me, darling.”

“You…you like my voice?”

“Oh, dearest, I could write ballads about it.”

“You do not have to.”

“But there are so many songs you could sing so well, and I will never understand how we could silence you, how we could make you believe we don’t want to hear you…”

Logan blushes a pretty pink, but he’s smiling. He’s smiling. And Roman just has to shuffle a little closer to tilt his chin up to see it properly. It’s lovely.

He cups Logan’s chin, feeling the spot under his tongue.

“…still a few more in there, hmm?”

Logan nods, his fingers twitching and growing restless. He looks down to see Logan stimming with the gold trim on his clothes, running his fingers over the coarse twine. Roman smiles, shifting a little to let him work his way along the lines, up the seams, to the ones on his chest. The blush stays on Logan’s cheeks, obviously a little nervous about touching him this way, but…stimming is stimming. Roman understands.

“Do you like it?”

Logan nods.

“I like the sash too,” he says quietly, gently smoothing it right next to Logan’s hand, encouraging him to do the same, “smooth, right?”

“I seem to recall a song lyric about being buried in satin?”

“I don’t know, you’ll have to sing it for me.”

“…I believe the song is called ‘If I Die Young.’”

“You’ll have to sing it.”

“Do you know it?”

“Yes.” When Logan looks up at him, he understands. “Do you?”

“Not all of it.”

“Most of it?”

“…most of it.”

“May I sing it with you?”

“If you like.”

He ruffles Logan’s hair gently. “You start then.”

His hand slows where it’s toying with his sash. Then…

“If I die young,

bury me in satin,

lay me down on a bed of roses,

sink me in the river

at dawn,

send me away with the words of a love song.

“Oh, oh…oh, oh…” Logan looks up at him. He smiles and sings the verse.

“Lord, make me a rainbow,

I’ll shine down on my mother.

She’ll know I’m safe with you

when she stands under my colors, oh.

Life ain’t always what you think it oughta be, no.

Ain’t even gray but she buries her baby.”

He raises his eyebrows, dipping to sing the harmony for: “The sharp knife,

of a short life, well.

I’ve had just enough time.”

The next chorus is smoother, Roman’s smile growing as Logan’s voice starts to ring. His harmony grows warmer.

“If I die young,

bury me in satin,

lay me down on a bed of roses,

sink me in the river

at dawn,

send me away with the words of a love song.

The sharp knife

of a short life, well.

I’ve had just enough time.”

Logan may have been lying about not knowing all of the song, because here Roman is, happily singing the harmony.

“And I’ll be wearing white—“ Roman raises his eyebrows, making them laugh—

“when I come into your kingdom,

I’m as green as the ring

on my little cold finger, I’ve

never known the loving of a man

but it sure felt nice when he was holding my hand—“

Roman covers Logan’s hand, holding it firmly to his chest, thrilling at the way it makes Logan’s voice stutter just a little on the next line.

“—there’s a boy here in town, says he’ll

love me forever.

Who would’ve thought forever would be severed by

the sharp knife

of a short life, well.

I’ve had just enough time.”

And damn can Logan hit that high note. He whistles in approval, grinning wider when Logan just…keeps it going.

“So put on your best boys,

and I’ll wear my pearls…

what I never did is done…”

The smile fades when Logan’s face drops, looking back at Roman’s chest. The hand under Roman’s begins to tremble as he keeps singing.

“A penny for my thoughts, oh no,

I’ll sell ‘em for a dollar.

They’re worth so much more

after I’m a goner,

and maybe then you’ll hear the words I’ve been singing.

Funny when you’re dead, how people start listening…”

No. Not Logan. Not on his watch. Not on any of their watches.

Roman shifts even closer, letting Logan lean his full weight on him, clutching his hand tenderly to his chest. For a moment, he thinks they’re going to just let the song end there, he wouldn’t blame him, Logan’s already made him so proud, then…

Then Logan takes a deep breath and raises his chin. A single tear stands out on his face. And it’s beautiful.

“If I die young,

bury me in satin,

lay me down on a bed of roses,

sink me in the river

at dawn,

send me away with the words of a love song.

“Oh, oh…the ballad of a dove,

filled with peace and love.

Gather up your tears,” Roman sings as he wipes it away,

“keep them in your pocket,

save ‘em for a time

when you’re really gonna need ‘em, oh.

The sharp knife

of a short life, well.

I’ve had just enough time.”

He’s so proud of them. He’s so proud.

“So put on your best, boys,” Logan sings, holding Roman’s gaze, “and I’ll wear my pearls…”

The last note fades out. They’re breathless, even despite the relatively easy nature of the song. Roman clutches Logan’s hand tightly to his chest, Logan leans against Roman.

Roman reaches out and gently trails a finger in an arc around Logan’s neck, creating a string of pearls that lay just over his collarbones.