#queer identity in PoC spaces

[kimyoonmiauthor]

What are you writing? Queer joy and Queer rage in white spaces? And other PoC queer musings.

So basically I'm writing Queer rage for one novel, which covers a wide range of subjects besides queerness, such as most of the LGBTQIA things, and racism, ableism, disablism, etc. And what does it exactly mean to be a feminist while doing those things?

That novel, when I describe it gets zero push back. It's issues everyone knows, though I challenge pretty deep on some of the more messy bits that probably won't make straight people happy. Doing call outs and call ins along the way... but I'm sure white feminists will have deep issues with it or whatever.

The novel I have the most pushback on, so far, is the queer joy one. It's not a white setting, but white queers are upset at me on several ways I do it. I said something on the order of, Nuke the European gender binary in an other world planet and be delighted at making cis people question their gender identity, and the white queers were upset at me and then went onto tone policing.

The thread went to hell, when really, I was writing a culture that's approximately East Asian (I studied vastly well for this)? And the European binary shouldn't figure into it, and people got super upset at the idea I would do this? But it's not as if white straight people haven't nuked the gender binary before.

There's Ursula Le Guin and Neil Gaiman for example.

Iunno, I did the due diligence as a NB PoC, and did look at queer history of East Asian countries and pulled from that, which has more Third gender acceptance across the board, and if you look, it's less sanitized.

Japan constantly, constantly plays with gender in ways that make my NB self fall in love. Even the straight authors play around with X-Gender, etc. Watase Yuu also played with it where a character wanted to become female in one of their lesser known manga. I loved that manga, BTW, because probably before I knew, it covered a lot of the feels I had, and some of the weirdness of gender for me.

Have you read Blue Wars? I mean, Sooo good. And a Cis person wrote it.

Besides that, there is also Go Go Princess. Gender squishy bisexual (at least, if not pan) delight it is. The Beauty Inside (I liked the movie more than the drama, but both are good). And a ton of media where there are gender body swaps. (I love those). And I mildly like the cross dressing ones–though we need more men dressing up as women too in non-threatening ways. (which white people also take umbrage to–cishet people dressing up as the opposite sex, how dare you--it's anti-trans. But it's part of the folktales of the countries I cited.) But I like the magical ones better. And no one flags it and goes, you know what this needs, the pain of trans medical surge– and hormones, because that's trans-ness and you're really disrespecting trans people by not including it. But it isn't... often ironically and to my delight of anti-terfness, it's a challenge about what? Sexism. Ha! We got ya!

And after a while, sometimes I feel like the categorization of Nonbinary itself in this confined white definition feels, iunno, limiting. But I also feel like I'm not allowed to say that out loud or something. I'm betraying my NB status. After all, all of the guides about nonbinary-ness are written for a white straight audience in mind, saying things like NBs will really mind if you talk about their assigned birth sex and it's a betrayal to NB status to talk about their assigned sex. And maybe *psst* write about them having *gasp* sex with body parts and how dare you? Oh, but don't forget the NB PoCs out there. But do default to They, even if the NB community doesn't feel evenly about this... because you see, you really, really need the cis audience out there to know this character is NB. Even if there are people out there that use he/him/his and she/her/hers. Mind the cis audience, folks, you need to be consistent.

And I know I'm not all of NB-dom here, but I don't particularly feel this way. I delighted in Ranma 1/2 before I knew I was NB, though it kinda missed out on that gooey part of NBness for me, where you feel like neither or mixed. But I'm not allowed to do this, even if Ranma 1/2 is a romance of sorts...

I'm more like, whatever I could get tomorrow I'd take it, type. I love, love media that challenges cissexism and cisness. But my opinions aren't reflected in the white writing guides about NBs. You have to be super careful and not laissez faire. How dare you want to write NB romance where you talk about sex changes? Don't you know the dysphoria and how disrespectful it is to talk about NB bodies? duhn duhn duhn, you betrayed all of NBdom by giving fuel to the transphobes by talking about *gasp* their assigned sex. What will the straight people think?

But I don't feel that way. Maybe because the rigidity found inherent in European gender systems isn't in East Asia as much. I mean the super strict to the point that people lose their sense of morality type of gender correction. So I kind of feel like I'm floating in this liminal space of needing to bend to some white ideal of what queerness needs to be while lusting really hard to be given the freedom to express what I want to show it to be because my ideas of gender are "wrong" and "anti-queer" when I am queer and am trying to express my ideas of queerness and joy in being queer but being told my version of queerness isn't white enough, and thus anti-queer?

How does that work exactly?

So in order to reorder the gender system to automatically include NBs, I decided to nuke the entire gender system, which meant I had to also rework the sexual orientation section as well because it depends a lot on cis-ness to work in a European model, and thus kicks out NBs, which NBs then complain about. No one remembers that people felt "betrayed" when Elliot Page came out as Trans? I wanted to rework the system so there wasn't anything like that. I wanted a more inclusive system that celebrated trans-ness, NBness and Queerness without this reshuffling effect. And this also upset people. But I'm telling you with the strength of my degree, sexual orientation hasn't worked the same over time either, and me wanting to basically turn this thing around *in a story* and rework the sexual orientation system along with the gender system also gets people really upset.

Neil Gaiman got it. His angels don't have sex organs, so... how can you call them "gay" or "Bi" when their bodies are effectively androgynous?

But PoC NB questioning the shape of things and wanting to remake a world to accept more NBness by reshaping this, in *fiction* somehow is a threat?

So this is where I am at.

I did a hand wave in my fiction world and allowed characters to do consensual changing of their sex. 'cause East Asian fiction, presently and historically doesn't mind that much (though out of the public eye most of the time of international fans.) But I also didn't want to somehow "erase" the transness with it. I wanted to be honest that even if they change their physical sex, that there is still trans-ness inherent in it. And people don't really want to talk about how sometimes transitioning can change your sexuality and sexual orientation, but I wanted to talk about it in a way that wasn't all doom and gloom and about how horrible and how it betrays this sense of sexual orientation and identity to stay one sexual orientation all your life–because you must, or you betray all of queerdom. (What if the straights find out?) Fuck, do I have to think about straight people when writing queer joy? Apparently queer people want to remind you about the straights.

And then I have effectively the equivalent of bi, pan, omni, poly, lesbians, and gays running around in the world, which I suppose people will label the characters as anyway, even if I recategorized the sexual orientation boxes to neatly fit NBs. I wanted to allow for sexual orientation fluidity as well, which often the labels of bi, etc don't allow. 'cause I'm one of those really liberal queers that like talking about how some people have split attractions to different genders and some people are more attracted to one gender over another, which doesn't mean they hate that gender outright, which then the queer community feels iffy about, but I'm like, bring it on. Let's talk about people who are attracted to all genders who are only attracted to other people who are attracted to all genders. Is it wrong? No. Why should it be? It's not fetishization.

I also nuked a lot of the Victorian idealism over sex because in my research, such prudishness to that degree was a later imposition and I wanted to be sex positive (as an ace too) and also not quite historically accurate. 'cause sex positivity isn't automatically anti-ace or anti-queer, though some writing guides seem to make it out to be. And I didn't want to impose European imperialism on a world that effectively has no white people and has more trade cooperatives than imperialism (because there is a bigger threat usually than that). (No gulf stream... and the planet is warmer too, so no really white people, which people really got upset about. Eat it. You get your all white worlds somehow, with an equator and no Gulf Stream which makes no sense, then I get to have a PoC-dominate world with actual astronomy and geography behind it.)

Still Ace, but recognizing Sex workers as valid people and that regulation is better than none is totally something I do. I write frankly about sex too, 'cause ummm... Aces write about sex. Aceness is limited, conditional or no sexual attraction. And some Aces who are sex repulsed, also love to write smut. So... but I'm also told that's not the correct aceness by people who aren't ace?

Am I not allowed to write romance as an aromantic either? Even if I've actually experienced romance before? 'cause guess what? Aros also have romance too.

And yeah, I wrote some aces and aros in. 'cause I can.

But apparently I'm not doing it right. It's too neat, it's too messy, it's too PoC and not white queer enough. What about those Victorian values of never talking about body parts by their correct name in a fit of sex shaming and secrecy? Why can't I write that?

I didn't know Queer joy could be so, so decisive an issue. How dare you take away my label in a fictional world so you can include NBs in that world?

Wait until they see how I nuked the adoption system using historical cases... Ah, then they'll be really upset.

BTW, I'd 100% be down for a Lesbian or a Gay planet. Or a Pan paradise... (hopefully done better than Orville and Star Trek?)

[thedandelionresistance]

What is a revolution?

I've seen so many people think of a revolution as a bloody, violent thing. Taking a better society, wresting power from the hands of the powerful with force. Eliminating societal undesirables as the unspoken bonus goal: the disabled who rely on medical supply lines, the homeless who rely on community and state support initiatives, the children already caught in the crossfire of their parents' ownership and the state's enforcement of it.

I've seen fellow leftists - socialists, anarchists - reject the concept of revolution for that reason, and I'm right there with them... except the word revolution is still meaningful to us.

So... what is a revolution?

Is blood the only fuel, or can we find a clean energy source? Can it be so unlike YA revenge fantasies and instead be a tsunami of overwhelming compassion and community? Can it be gradual, ongoing, not a Rapture nor a cleansing but simply a process day by day? Can it be a living thing, breathing with the collective oxygen and dreams of a whole world?

What if a revolution is all the small things? Asking your disabled neighbor what form of help would be most helpful to them and doing what you can. Making (food-restriction-safe) food for people who can eat it. Sharing resources and building social programs that'll catch the vulnerable as the rot in the state condemns it. Sharing freely and fearlessly and not blaming others for the way they cope with a world that is still often cruel when they aren't hurting anyone else. Taking according to your need and giving according to your ability, including with how you take action to take care of others.

rev·o·lu·tion·ar·y

adjective

1. involving or causing a complete or dramatic change.

Things never truly change when power is seized and hierarchies redistributed. Every "revolution" of blood and death fails at its fundamental intent.

But what, then, could be more revolutionary than one step at a time, making the world a little brighter? Call me naïve, call me idealistic, but those who cannot even imagine a better future largely can't make one. (If you can't imagine it because of despair though, let us do that work for you, and we'll bring you with us for as long as you'll come.)

What could cause a more complete change than simply changing how each of us treat other people, bit by bit? What could be a more dramatic change than merely building a home and a hearth, brick by brick?

What could make things better more than never stopping trying to make things better? (Not doing everything right all the time, but just pushing to do as much as you can, whatever that means in any given moment, and forgiving yourself your own flaws and mistakes.)

Our revolution is life lived, not checkbox checked. It lives, it breathes, it feels, it laughs, it cries, it grows. Most of all, it seeks out a thousand thousand other small revolutions and builds communities of change.

That is revolution.

[b0tsbby]

No cause I actually love the episodes where Nathanial Curtis and Caroline Ford just casually live actioned Dolph and Sarah. Like, now they will always be Dolph and Sarah to me I truly loved it so much.

[musical-chick-13]

I hate to tell you this, but many gays also love Crazy Ex-Girlfriend. (A musical show about discovering your identity and the negative effects of internalizing harmful societal ideas about relationships, which also has canonically queer characters in it.)

[wolfertinger666]

people will really gleefully point out that the trans woman they disagree with online is "white". this isn't even a one time event it's a phenomenon I've been seeing lately, mostly done by other white people too.

i want y'all to understand this is misogyny, especially when the white trans woman you are demonizing isn't even talking about race related issues but rather her systemic oppression she faces as a woman, a TRANS woman at that.

if you really cared about POC queers especially black trans women, then include them in your spaces and give them comfort and love rather than weaponizing POC'S identity to be misogynistic/transmisogynistic.

[ichliebemeinkissen]

out of curiosity, why do you use the word transandrophobia? to my knowledge it was primarily created to push back against women’s reasonable discussions of transmisogny in the community, but i don’t know intimately how it’s used now. would you be able to discuss a little why you feel it’s a useful term?

To your knowledge? Do you mean you just saw a bunch of people on tumblr shit talk it and you internalized that as the truth?

Transandrophobia is a good term for discussing a different subset of trans issues. It just happens that certain people of this community haven't unlearned certain beliefs, and take out their issues on other people under the guise of "defending" queers.

Transandrophobia as a discussion is not transmisogynistic, and if you lurked a bit in those spaces you can see that clearly.

.

Let me put it to you this way, anon:

On one hand you have a bunch of trans people coming together to talk about their issues. Poc and non-americans hold more of a voice than previously in conversations of trans issues, and it's all around a bunch of people coming together to do community work.

On the other side you have a bunch of bloggers who will constantly shit talk trans men for their identity, frequent sexual harassment against people who post about transandrophobia, major "anti transandrophobia" bloggers being routinely racist, misgendering people, including trans women, carying out harassment campaigns, etc, and all around being typically racist, intersexist, bio essentialist, self described radfems, exorsexist, etc.

.

I have been in these conversations for a while. The second group is nothing new, just manifests their hate in a new way. You tell me, anon, do you think I, a trans woman who constantly preaches about community & unity and listening to others in minoritiy groups, would choose the second option? Where I routinely see slop as a base of the argument? Genuinely go look and critically think about both sides and then come back to me.

This is why you can't just accept everything you read on your timeline, dear reader. You'll simply end up supporting whoever you see. Even though it's well known that people will hide their hatred behind "benevolence" or "protection".

I'm a bit ill so I cannot adequately say this any better, but I don't think I need to explain to you why I use the term. I think you need to learn the terms history and spend some time studying both sides, it should speak for itself.

[imjunebitch]

hey chat, if you claim to be a progressive activist, and your willingness to show compassion and advocate only goes as far as your own identity, you are bad at activism!

to get this out of the way, i certainly don't consider myself an activist, im not even fully out of the closet, im slightly active in gsa, and I post discourse on tumblr occasionally, that does not make me an activist. a lot of queer people or otherwise marginalized people aren't, or can't be, or just don't want to be, and that's okay! most people shouldn't have to be, in my opinion! but i Poast as I do bc i try to be compassionate and when I see shit I Feel The Need To Address It.

look at all the damn TRFs on this site, essentially. You'll note some things about the group as a whole, and this is a generalization, which is a bad thing, i apologize and promise im not shit talking any of these associated groups, im gonna make a coherent point i prommy! but the vast majority of them are white, perisex, gender conforming, binary lesbian transfems. nothing wrong with that, that's cool! but you'll note that all they ever seem to advocate for is, well, white, perisex, gender conforming, binary lesbian transfems, and they continually shit on everyone else.

(although they might occasionally show some solidarity with nonbinary people. oh, but only "TMA" nonbinary people. grabbing them by their hands and explaining the existence of intersex people I stg, drop your fucking bigoted false dichotomy that inherently forces nonbinary people to reveal their assigned sex to you to even be respected by you and still defines them by that anyway. drop your system that treats intersex people like an unimportant afterthought. collateral damage in your shitty quest to have a short snappy acronym you can drag through the mud because you don't have the fucking guts to just say that you hate trans men with your whole pussy) ⬅️ period of foaming rage over now

so here's the problem. they want to be activists! they really do! but their interest in activism stops where they stop, and they have no interest in forming compassion, alliance, or any sort of bond with anyone outside of that group. and in all to many cases, they have real, actual ire against people not in their group. even groups that have so much in common with them! what else could aphobia in queer spaces be? or intersexism in trans and queer spaces? or racism among queer people, or transandrophobia among trans women and fems? what does all of this have in common? two things really.

it's so fucking stupid that trying to explain it to a friend who isn't online makes you feel like you're just rambling because it is genuinely so fucking stupid. all of you exclusionist assholes are so genuinely cartoonishly stupid and so completely blind to intersectionality and just fucking compassion as a concept that trying to explain your stances and how fucking MANY of you there somehow are makes ME look like I'm just rambling away. had to get that off my chest

they come from a fundamental unwillingness to engage with anything outside of whatever they have defined as the in-group.

it boggles my damn mind that a trans person could say intersexism and exorsexism aren't real, or that a queer person could shit on asexual and aromantic people, or that a transfem person could say that a transmasc person doesn't actually suffer from their own kind of oppression, or that so many white queers are so shitty towards poc queers. but all of this comes from people saying "i want progress, but i only want it for myself, and the groups I relate to and nobody else." tma/tme shit is this at its absolute clearest. let's impose a dichotomy of who is and is not oppressed, let's define "oppressed" as "suffers in a way similar to me" and now let's shit on everyone who isn't "oppressed." (which again is clearly just shorthand for transmasculine, about 70% of the time. work your fucking issues out, trans men and mascs are not the oppressor.)

but look guys. I can go outside. i can read the news. i can talk to and hang around with my friends and partners, and through doing all of this i can see that you're completely full of shit. i can see sexuality being forced on asexual people,listen to stories from ace and around people about being forced into relationships and see that clearly things aren't fucking sunshine and rainbows for ace people! i can see and hear how people dismiss or deride intersex people and see "huh looks like intersex people are made invisible and ignored or otherwise treated as if something is wrong with them, damn, wish we had a word for that, how does 'intersexism" sound?" i identified as nonbinary for a while so i fucking know firsthand how people, even sometimes other queer people, just treat you like your assigned sex, especially if you don't present as androgynous. i can go to queer events and see how fucking unwelcome poc queers are, and I can fucking hang out with my friends and my partners, the "TME queers" you fucking ASSHOLES love to shit all over and see, fucking firsthand, how they are treated. how trans men are simultaneously infantilized and treated like predators for existing, how gnc people are treated like they're subhuman or novelties, how all of us queer people threatened, and hurt, and beaten down by bigotry, transfem or not.

and then I get to come home, and i go online, and i see you fucking vultures tearing apart other marginalized groups. people like them. people i love. because I guess that's fucking easier isn't it. it's easier to blame your problems on a nonbinary teenager who uses pronouns you dislike and say that xe's the cause of your oppression, or to shit on a trans man who can't bind or cut his hair because his parents would kill him instead of actually doing something to help your own fucking community. fuck you.

help your fucking community, at least. if you can't even bring yourself to try to advocate for others, then damn, at least spend your time advocating for your own group and not contributing to the issues of another.

I'm tired, yanno.

[aptericia]

Not proud to be here.

--

Ok, here goes draft like 5 of this fucking post. I spent 4 hours tossing and turning in bed last night thinking about this, and then this morning I found a tumblr post that really helped me understand what I was trying to say.

The post talks about how aromantic "advocates" claim that "aros don't take up resources, so there's no reason not to include them!" And if that's actually what people believe, I think I can finally articulate why it is that I feel so alienated in queer spaces.

It's because aspecs in general aren't "welcomed" by much of the queer community. We're tolerated. We perhaps get the luxury of not being contradicted on our own identities, or not being specifically kicked out of LGBTQ-only spaces, but that's the whole point: what we get out of the queer "community" is people NOT doing things, not actually doing things FOR us. And that, frankly, is not enough. We deserve conversations about us. We deserve to have others consider our feelings, even when making lighthearted jokes. We deserve varied, respectful representation in media. We deserve the active deconstruction of amatonormativity in society. We deserve to have space made for us, rather than at most being told we should "go take up more space!" ourselves.

Of course, the reality is that my being aspec is a personal matter that does not inherently affect anyone else. But the same can be said for literally any queer identity. Your being gay doesn't say anything about me, so of course I shouldn't hurt you for it, but why should I help you either? Because your happiness and comfort are important. The same goes for aspecs.

And most of the time, I don't even need anyone to make space for or expend resources on me; I can live fine in everyday, non-queer-specific places without mentioning my identity at all. But it's the queer community that claims it will make that space for me, doesn't, and then acts defensive and morally pure if I call out the hypocrisy because "we're queer too, you can't erase our identities to advocate for yours!!!!"

Again, this post isn't about specifics. I have queer friends who are incredibly thoughtful and supportive about my identity, just as I have non-queer friends who are. I find more solidarity in aspec-only communities, as well as trans/genderqueer ones, although there are still many exceptions. This post is also not about amatonormative ideology, which is extremely common from queer and non-queer people alike. This post is about the reason I've felt so betrayed by the queer community.

--

On a personal note, I remember being so excited when I started identifying as aromantic (and later asexual). Fitting myself into labels has been a lifelong struggle for me; to this day I still can't confidently say if I'm White or PoC, neurotypical or neurodivergent, abled or disabled, cisgender or not cisgender. I continue to struggle making friends because I don't fall into social cliques. To discover that I officially, certainly, was LGBTQ+ lifted a huge weight off my shoulders. And now I'm just so sad to find that despite that, I'm still stuck in the middle. I didn't get rewarded with a community. I still feel alienated from both queer and non-queer people. I know it was silly to get my hopes up when there's such vast diversity in both groups, but it really was a disappointment. Going to my first Pride parade last year was really the moment where I realized this.

[ultfreakme]

So.

I finished She-ra.

I wanted to watch it because I realized I rarely watched anything with a female-centric cast and I especially didn't interact with sapphic content despite being sapphic. Abundance of cishet male-specific stories and a love for action-adventure led me to not exploring the latter in stories centering women because I had my own biases. I didn't think there were nearly enough action-adventure stories centering women out there in comparison to men. I just gave into convenience. Also I'll be real, internalized misogyny.

She-ra was so breathtaking and impactful because close to a decade after watching Legend of Korra and the beginning of Korrasami, I got to watch a fully-explored lesbian relationship on-screen with all the action and adventure I wanted.

I saw too much of myself in all the characters. In Glimmer & Angella's mother-daughter bickering, in Catra's insecurities, in Mermista's distance and aversion to people but still wanting companionship. I saw me in bits and pieces across all these girls and women.

It's a rare moment for a POC queer woman like me to truly see myself anywhere. My identity is often considered rare enough to be mythic (although queer POC are fucking everywhere lbr).

I remember being an eight-year old, and watching The Little Mermaid for the first time. I was mesmerized, I sung "Part of Your World" and re-enacted in my tiny apartment with only enough space for a bed and a cupboard and nothing else where my entire family were. I'd sing it on top of my lungs and then I'd look in the mirror and see brown skin and black hair and the spell of being a mermaid underwater would break.

Then fast-forward to 2024, I see She-Ra and her magical princess friends say they need to recruit a powerful Sea Princess to their war efforts. I am excited only because my fascination for mermaids has never really gone away. Then our main crew arrive and what do I see?

A brown woman, a woman with my skin tone and my eyes and my wavy kind of hair. She's stand-offish and a little emo, and she controls the ocean. She can switch her legs for fins and swim!! Suddenly I'm eight again.

I also remember watching The Swan Princess for the first time and feeling strange butterflies every time I saw Odette in her beautiful white gown. I didn't know then that girls could like girls, all I had was this feeling. A buttery, soft feeling where I wanted to sit beside her and see her smile. As I grew up I understood it was me being attracted to her and thinking "there's no love story showing the way I love".

Enter Catra and Adora. I felt a silly kind of nostalgia seeing Catra in love with a magical girl in gold and white.

I could go ON AND ON with all these little details where bits of me were in the show. It made me a little less lonely, and made me a lot more hopeful. Seeing yourself in media is important. Obviously you don't need it to empathize with a character or understand them but seeing parts of your own experience on-screen is a different kind of high. Like, like woah I can be a protagonist like that? I don't need to erase myself?

A story which treated parts of me- all the good and the bad parts- with kindness and gave it all a happy ending. I am so used to reading tragedy, expecting cruelty from even fantasy that I truly treasure stories with hope.

This show gave me that. I have been doing pretty bad in terms of mental health for months, maybe over a year actually. This was a nice reprieve and I hope the message of the story sticks with me, and that I start 2025 stronger and braver.

[demontobee]

Good Omens is queering TV/storytelling - part 1: GAZE

I would argue that part of why Good Omens is so refreshingly queer is because it does not cater to the male gaze (which centers around the preferences - aesthetic, romantic, sexual, visual, logical, emotional, political ... - of mainly white men in positions of power):

no oversexualization of groups or types of people: Women or characters that could be read as female presenting are not overly sexualized. In fact, some of them are shown to be grimy, slimy and not sexual at all. All of them are real characters and not just cardboard-cutout on-screen versions of male misogynistic fantasies. They portray real people with real people problems. They are human, or exempt from our categories when portraying angels or demons. There are no overly sexualized bodies in general (as has so far also often been the case with young gay men, PoC, etc.), no fetishization of power imbalances, and not exclusively youthful depiction of love and desire.

sex or sexual behavior is not shown directly (yet): All imagery and symbolism of sex and sexuality is used not to entice the audience but is very intimately played out between characters, which makes it almost uncomfortable to watch (e.g., Aziraphale being tempted to eat meat, Crowley watching Aziraphale eat, the whole gun imagery).

flaunting heteronormativity: Throughout GO but especially GO2, there is very little depiction of heterosexual/romantic couples; most couples are very diverse and no one is making a fuss about it. There is no fetishization of bodies or identities. Just people (and angels and demons) being their beautiful selves (or trying to).

age: Even though Neil Gaiman explained that Crowley and Aziraphale are middle-aged because the actors are, I think it is also queering the idea of romance, love and desire existing mainly within youthful contexts. Male gaze has taught us that young people falling and being in love is what we have to want to see, and any depiction of love that involves people being not exactly young anymore is either part of a fetishized power imbalance (often with an older dude using his power to prey on younger folx) or presents us with marital problems, loss of desire, etc. – all with undertones of decay and patronizing sympathy. Here, however, we get a beautifully crafted, slow-burn, and somehow super realistic love story that centers around beings older than time and presenting as humans in their 50s figuring out how to deal with love. It makes them both innocent and experienced, in a way that is refreshing and heartbreaking and unusual and real.

does not (exclusively) center around romantic/sexual love: I don’t know if this is a gaze point exactly but I feel like male gaze and resulting expectations of what a love story should look like are heavily responsible for our preoccupation with romantic/sexual love in fiction – the “boy gets girl” type of story. And even though, technically, GO seems to focus on a romantic love story in the end, it is also possible to read this relationship but also the whole show as centering around a kind of love that goes beyond the narrow confines of our conditioned boxed-in thinking. It seems to depict a love of humanity and the world and the universe and just the ineffability of existence as a whole.

disability as beautiful and innate to existence: Disability is represented amongst angels by the extremely cool Saraqael and by diversely disabled unnamed angels in the Job minisode. Representation of disability is obviously super important in its own right, but is also queers what we perceive as aesthetically and ontologically "normal". Male gaze teaches us that youth and (physical and mental) health are the desirable standard and everything else is to be seen as a deviance, a mistake. By including disability among the angels, beings that have existed before time and space, the show clearly states that disability is a beautiful and innate part of existence.

gender is optional/obsolete: Characters like Crowley, Muriel and others really undermine the (visual and aesthetic) boundaries of gender and the black-and-white thinking about gender that informs male gaze. Characters cannot be identfied simply as (binary) men or women anymore just by looking at them or by interpreting their personalities or behaviors. Most characters in GO, and especially the more genderqueer ones, display a balance of feminine and masculine traits as well as indiosyncracies that dissolve the gender binary.

Feel free to add your own thoughts on this in the comments or tags!

[ladyimaginarium]

coining the term twospiritphobia / twospiritmisia.

Q: what is twospiritphobia / twospiritmisia?

A: the discrimination, hatred, exclusion & erasure of those who identify as two spirit and/or indigiqueer.

Q: why not just call it homophobia/transphobia against indigenous qipoc / queer indigenous poc?

A: because not every indigenous person identifies by western lgbtqia+ labels which are a predominantly western eurocentric concept that does not always align with indigenous turtle island concepts, not all queer natives identify with two spirit due to its heavy inherent historical, social, political, cultural, spiritual & ceremonial connotations & because we deserve to have our terms to describe our own experiences of discrimination that inherently includes our indigeneity & our own sacred two spirit nature.

Q: why did you(&) coin this term?

A: because i've noticed that in the past year & even before, the predominantly white queer community refuses to include us let alone see us & when they do, it's usually to tokenize us then throw us away when we're no longer convenient, erase us (see: nex benedict, when the mostly white queer community erased their indigenous two spirit identity to make them their trans/nonbinary martyr despite them being choctaw & completely ignoring mmeiwg2s+/mmeip issues which is never talked about in queer spaces unless natives talk about it), talk down to us when we don't conform to your western concepts of gender & orientation that do not inherently apply to us, speak over us & our issues & push us out of your fucking queer spaces without ever actually trying to work with us despite the fact that we the two spirit community who were revered as sacred have existed on turtle island for over 5000 years & were the first victims & survivors of racist imperialist homophobic & transphobic based war crimes & genocide & have been fighting & resisting for our liberation far before anyone else ever set foot on these lands, longer than any other queer community on turtle island, longer than stonewall & whenever queer history is brought up, two spirit people & the violence against us from the beginning of colonization of turtle island are never discussed & quite frankly i've had enough of native erasure both historically speaking & in the present day. there's a reason why there's a 2s in front of 2slgbtqia+ in "canada", because we were here first. we will not be erased. there can be no liberation without two spirits at the center of queer activism. by adding this to your vocabulary you acknowledge & honor two spirits as the first queer people of turtle island & we deserve your allyship, respect, protection & solidarity, respect the indigenous roots of the term two spirit, honor indigenous peoples' way of living, loving & learning & building communities across turtle island, emphasize the importance of indigenous perspectives & identities within the broader 2slgbtqia+ community & further acknowledging & recognizing the historical & ongoing contributions of indigenous peoples to discussions about gender & sexual diversity & highlights the need for visibility & inclusion of two spirits in these conversations & acknowledging, respecting & honoring indigenous peoples as the traditional stewards of the land & that indigenous peoples were the first to build communities that honored romantic, sexual, gender & sex diversity on the land of turtle island ever since time immemorial.

Q: what are some examples of twospiritphobia?

A: the erasure of two spirits both historically & in the present, assaulting/committing hatecrimes against individuals who are, or who are perceived or assumed to be two spirits, nonnatives — both white settlers & nonnative poc — culturally appropriating two spirit when it's an exclusive closed term from closed cultures for indigenous people of turtle island, if you are not first nations, métis, inuit, indigenous american, alaska native, indigenous mexican, indigenous central american, greenlandic inuit or otherwise not indigenous to turtle island and/or mixed with any of those groups, & you are not either reconnecting, semiconnected or connected to your culture, you cannot use the term, using antinative slurs against two spirits on any context or form that one cannot reclaim and/or using said antinative slurs casually/as insults, harassing/threatening/mocking/intimidating two spirit individuals while motivated by said individual's two spirit & indigenous identity whether online or face-to-face, treating two spirits differently than pericishetallo natives, even if one is native themselves, attempting to "correct" two spirits on their own identities, saying our two spirit identities are wrong, using religion and/or spirituality as an excuse to harm or exclude two spirit people, fetishizing/objectifying/sexualizing/romanticizing individuals based on their two spirit identities, opposing and/or dismissing the need for explicit two spirit representation & progress for two spirit rights & two spirit liberation, erasing two spirit issues as inherently gay/trans issues, not acknowledging twospiritphobic behavior in others, refusing to speak up for two spirit people, telling two spirits that they're unnatural or "attention seeking", speaking over two spirited people when they tell you you're being racist/being twospiritphobic, policing two spirits on who we can & can't be in relation to ourselves especially from nonnatives even more from white settlers, accusing two spirits of "oppression olympics" whenever we bring up our issues, not acknowledging two spirits as the first queer people who've existed for thousands of years on turtle island & denying indigeneity as the core element of being two spirit.

disclaimer: do not fucking remove credit from us& being the coiner of this term, while the experiences of twospiritphobia/twospiritmisia are nothing new, we& as an indigenous bodied system demand respect as the coiner of this term. please ask if you intend on using this term on your wikis/masterlists. do not use this term for yourself to describe your experiences if nonnative/2S. nonnatives do not fucking derail, especially yt folx.

[angelshizuka]

I noticed how anti-Vivziepop hatedom are is performative and meaningless activism. Knights in shinning armor fighting for the ethnics and protection of fictional characters, while harrassing and dehumanizing real people.

"Viv fetishizes gay men!" say antis ignoring the two queer men that also write the show, and also ignoring that all mlm couples are normal couples just like any other straight narrative

"Viv hates women!" say antis that proposely ignore everything good about her female characters, instead choose to excuse a character that is supposed to be an abuser and a villain (Stella), while hating Vivienne, a queer woman, and using sexist slurs like whore, bitch and others to insult her. Also Viv is a queer woman

"Viv doesn't care about SA victims!" say antis that unvalidate SA victims that related to Angel and Stolas

"Viv writes problematic characters and jokes!" say antis that praise everything Brandon Roggers do, despite it being the same type of joke

"Viv hates fat people!" Vivienne is literally chubby. Like, I know it sucks to talk about someone's body this way, but come on. Are they blind? Wishing there were more bodily diversity is one thing, this is completely different.

"Viv is excusing Stolas's actions! She's racist and classist!" no she isn't. Stolas is facing the consequences of his actions. He is flawed, but he is also a victim of many people and circunstamces. Also, he is a fictional character, the way Viv writes him doesn't define who she is.

"Viv treats her employees badly!" says the antis that harrass VA, make them sign prints of triggering videos unvalidating trauma, and harrass storyboard artists for writing canonical relationships that are in the show

"Viv is racist(?) for some reason idk" says the antis that ignore all her poc characters and her own identity as a Hispanic creator. HB constantly mocks US, specially LA, but because of one short representing another country (Mexico) in a funny steriotypical way like many other media do, then suddenly her whole culture and identity disappears

It's all about performative activism. Pretending to care when you actually don't, just for likes, attention and egocentrism. They fight for this sanitized space that queer people MUST fit in or else they're predators, creeps, evil, etc... this type of "activism" backfires and end up being extremely nasty.

Honestly, I have nothing more to add, you worded it perfectly!

[wolfertinger666]

i know I brought this up 7 billion times but holy shit I just got reminded of that time I got told that my fursona should try cottagecore style because their white friend doesn't relate to Salem's fashion sense.

it was relatively a nice message but that last part was kind of a gut punch because it made me have a big realization that a lot of white people/white queers will see art that celebrates black identity and will most likely ignore it or only want to see more if it conforms to their own aesthetics.

i know a majority of it is heavily subconscious and not malicious at all, but it still hurts in some way that POC/queers of color cannot really celebrate themselves or even be in these spaces without masking or watering down their culture to be more digestible to a white audience.

[turtlesystem]

🐢✩°｡ ⋆ About Us!

Overview . ✦

Hello, we are the Turtle System! We are a diagnosed autistic DID system based in the US, and our blog is meant to share our experiences in a safe space (and to foster one as well). Sometimes we mention age regression, our interests, and current events.

Overall, we are friendly (at least those who access this blog), though we might be shy to initiate conversations at first. Don’t be afraid to send a message!

Boundaries . ✦

We ask that anyone who interacts with this blog is respectful of our identities (queer, POC, etc).

All posts and our askbox are open to friendly interaction. DMs too!

We appreciate more serious questions about our system (symptoms, struggles, etc), but please make sure to word them respectfully (in that it’s easy to tell that it’s a question of good intent).

We benefit a lot from the use of tone indicators.

Some alters are more introverted/extroverted and slow/faster at responding than others.

Interests . ✦

Science, history/linguistics, art, and writing.

The Avengers (Marvel), Tolkien, Star Wars, and a handful of anime/manga.

Nintendo games, SDV, and Minecraft.

👥✩°｡ ⋆ Who's Online?

Note: All children in our system are supervised whenever they are granted access to the Internet,

🐸 YJ

he/him, host, young adult

🧬 Bruce

he/him, partial introject, fluctuating age

🧪 8096

he/him, partial introject, adult ⚛️ 616

she/he/it, partial introject, adult

🌌 Luke

he/star, partial introject, young adult

🍃 Maple/Legolas

he/leaf, partial introject, young adult

🦉 Pat

he/him, introject, young adult

💿 Cindy

he/she, introject, young adult

🐳 William

he/him, child

🚨 Arlo/Sasha

they/he/she/xe/it, protector, young adult

🍓 Elio

he/it/berry, substitute host, adult

🏙️ Clark

he/him, multiple roles, adult

🍮 Argyle

they/he, internal helper, adult

🐶 Logan

he/him, dog alter, child

Species: beagle (fully

puppykin)

Assigned turtle: Florida Box Turtle

Normal age: ~9 y/o

Function: little

Online: pattern unclear

Temperament: excitable, energetic, playful 

-> 🐻 | Spencer

Identity: man, he/him

Species: human

Assigned turtle: Asian Giant Tortoise

Normal age: late 20s, 30s, and 40s

Function: caretaker, former protector 

Online: occasionally

Temperament: responsible, caring, patient, stoic

-> 🦀 | June

Note: I really, really love carcinology, especially crabs. Everyone in the system likes different kinds of animals, but please remember me as the crab guy (/nf). My favorite crab changes daily! Please ask me about crabs.

Identity: lavender boy, they/he

Species: human

Turtle type: Pinta Island Tortoise

Normal age: 13-15 y/o but "feels and acts like an old man"

Function: former host   

Online: occasionally

Temperament: insightful, enjoys the little things in life

-> 🌺 | Natasha

Identity: girl, she/her

Species: human

Turtle type: Hawksbill Sea Turtle

Normal age: late 20s, early 30s

Function: caretaker, Natasha Romanoff introject

Online: sometimes

Temperament: straightforward, observant, prefers to watch events unfold over participating in them

-> 🌸 | Joanne

Identity: feminine, she/her

Species: human

Turtle type: Loggerhead Sea Turtle

Normal age: late teens, early 20s

Function: "storage"

Online: rarely, if ever

Temperament: melancholic, gentle, sympathetic

-> 💠 | Tony

Identity: boy, he/him

Species: human

Turtle type: Wood Turtle

Normal age: "old enough"

Function: caretaker ("surprising I know, but I'm damn good at it"), Tony Stark (Marvel) introject ("in the flesh")

Online: sometimes

Temperament: likes to act cocky for the bit, easily bored, very playful

-> 👽 | Mace

Identity: xenoboy, he/him

Species: extraterrestrial

Turtle type: Common Snapping Turtle

Normal age: 9-13 y/o

Function: middle

Online: occasionally

Temperament: "Vincent from Stardew Valley if he was a tad older and an alien"

-> 👹 | Matthew

Identity: boy, he/him

Species: human

Turtle type: Spiny Softshell Turtle

Normal age: 21-24 y/o

Function: boundary enforcer, internal helper, partial Matthew Murdock (Marvel) introject

Online: occasionally

Temperament: righteous, slight mischievous streak, mildly ominous

[soph-the-podcast-nerd]

i haven’t seen a lot of the sort of ships and headcannons I want for midnight burger (however that may be because I am not done with the series yet so I haven’t followed many tags or anything) so im going to put them here.

Ava is on the aromantic spectrum

Gloria is also on the aromantic spectrum. I had her on the ace spectrum, but then I thought about it and in my own personal opinion I think that was just my urge to headcannon every character I like ace as an ace myself

Ex is ace and she and Shel are partners. Whenever they encounter someone/something dangerous, Shel protects Ex which starts out as cute until Shel gets to the point where they’re as tall as a tree. They’re both the kind of partner who goes “if you mess with my partner you mess with me” and its cute

Caspar is straight, but over the century that he’s worked at the diner he would occasionally meet a guy who is very charismatic and charms everyone he talks to and he was like hey what the fuck (you know the people, no matter who you’re attracted to its always like damn I forgot that I’m not attracted to that gender for a second)

Mucklewains are straight but very much allies, if you took them to 2025 they would be appalled at how religion was still being used to oppress queer people and POC 100 years later. You know those people at pride parades holding the “you’re going to hell” signs? They better pray they never meet Effie Mucklewain

Bert Bert: closeted bisexual

When Verge is asked about their gender they say they are the type of person to go either “I identify as a problem.” Or “I identify as a diva.” Or some shit like that

Leif has been exploring space since his 20s and he has met people of all different identities, and so he thinks that trying to define something like gender and attraction is a waste of time. Besides, what even is “straight” when everyone comes from different planets and had “default” genders and sexualities? (Cough cough totally not assigning him my personal opinion)

Clementine: she’s never really had the time to consider it and never really thought it was that important

June is a “im not gay but $20 is $20” kinda girl

edit: I’m adding Frank as straight guy who gets hit on by all the gay dudes who pass through the hotel and hes just like what the fuck! What about me screams gay! And also I’m tagging ace because I want to

edit: David 🤝 Fiona ➡️ WLW - MLM solidarity

both are the type to say “I’m too gay for this”

[kaleido-critter]

I have been so oc pilled lately so your first impression of me is gonna be this concept art dump :3

But yea welcome to my page! My name is Khalil, my pronouns are he/they, and I am a 20yo black queer furry artist. I love to use tons of colors in my art, but especially purple! I will be posting furry oc art and lore, and hopefully commissions and adopts!

DISCLAIMER: I will be covering mature topics in my OC story and my art will contain artistic nudity, suggestive themes, and potentially violence. So I’d give my account a rating of 16+, and dw I will add content warnings to the more sensitive things <3

One day I would love to bring my oc story to life in some media form, maybe animation, webcomic, or even music videos, because this story is really personal to me and has helped me process some things, notably my gender identity struggles and a toxic relationship I was in.

Also there will be SO much representation! I’m talking furry characters that are POC (especially black), plus sized, queer, and have experienced various forms of trauma. I also have a disabled character in the works, she is an ambulatory wheelchair user so I want to learn how to draw independent wheelchairs and canes/mobility aids in general, and how to properly write her. And with the skills I learn from writing and designing her, I hope to design more disabled characters and also be able to draw peoples mobility aids for comms :)

I cannot state enough how excited I am, like I have this whole world in my head and I am finally building the confidence to bring it to life! Stay tuned to follow along on my journey and to learn about my characters! 💜

And lastly, I should not even have to say this but DNI if you are racist, MAGA, sexist, queerphobic, a pedo/zoophile, a proshipper, or a zionist (free Palestine 🍉). My account is a safe space for safe people, and I will not stand for hatred of ANY minority group. And also DNI if you’re the kind of person who wants to keep politics out of the furry fandom, that’s just a ruse to silence minorities in the fandom because half the time things you dub “politics” are actual issues we face. If any of this unfortunately applies to you, GTFO 👋🏾