#sebastian discourse

[sdv-confessions]

People hate on Elliot for kissing you on the 8 heart event, BUT when Emily goes kissing people who barely have hearts with her thats fine, thats just okay.

When Clint stops hangingbout with Emily after you marry/date her, thats bad, But when Sebastian does it? thats fiiine.

When anyone pulls you out from the mines and your stuff goes missing, Thats fine, But when Linus does it? Thats nuhuh, Obviously he's stealing.(ITS THE DWAAAARF)

Stardew Valley fandom is full of hypocrisy, and I don't stand for it. this is just to name afew, I've noted alot of hypocrisy in the name of defacing certain characters. but i won't go into it.

.

[lithth]

“I love black butler!” “I ship sebaciel”

[azulasdefenseattorney]

"sebaciel is toxic!" "He only sees him as food!" "There's a huge age gap!" I DON'T CAAAAARRRREEEE I DON'T CAAAAARRRREEEE I DON'T CAAAAARRRREEEE I DON'T CAAAAARRRREEEE.

Please leave me alone I already know that, I've read the manga, and I still don't care

[helpwhatsthis]

Hey so if you went to an early screening of Thunderbolts* and you're posting about it, please keep in mind: THIS MOVIE DOES NOT COME OUT FOR TWO MORE WEEKS TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC!!!

Marvel does test screening all the time and this was the first time they've been this open with it and all you're doing if you post spoilers is showing them exactly why Marvel fans are truly the reason this franchise is falling off.

So if you get on the internet and openly run your mouth, fuck you. You're an asshole. Some people actually enjoy going into a Marvel movie on opening day and being surprised. Hope you enjoyed it this one fucking time bc I highly doubt they'll do this again.

[lacryem]

— A surprisingly long and in depth look about symbolism in the recent G-Fantasy cover by Yana Toboso ✦

Including references, flower language, how to decode the meaning of flowers, and a little too much brainrot. As well my personal interpretation drawn from all the sources I looked at. And of course what all of means (and maybe hints at?) for Sebastian and Ciel… and maybe even Sebaciel? 

Originally posted as a twitter thread, but threads suck and I forgot a couple things. so here now.

Disclaimer :

I don’t know FOR SURE that all these things were directly referenced by Yana when creating this art. But being a fan of her work for over a decade I've become familiar with her use of symbolism and reference, and believe myself to have a good eye for it at this point!   I'm also pretty familiar with the use of flower language, including different languages, due to having been involved in a project about it and having to read wayyy too much about this. 

Some of it also includes my own personal interpretation, but the meanings and info I based myself off of ARE factual. I think I made it pretty clear when referencing my personal interpretation. You're welcome to reach your own interpretation based off of the stuff provided!

And lastly, I'm not a sebaciel shipper. I'm not an anti (the complete opposite, actually) and have nothing against the ship, I like the narrative around them and how they're written but I don’t actively ship them romantically or sexually. So I'd say this is actually a pretty unbiased interpretation. Personal taste is one thing, but I don’t deny the author's intention and whats written in front of me! That is what this post is about.

Kuroshitsuji takes place in the Victorian period (1837~1901) in 1889.

The following are both important Victorian books on the language of flowers that I will be basing myself off of.

Language of Flowers by Greenaway Kate (1884), and The Language of flowers: An Alphabet of Floral Emblems (1857).

(Also, I’m treating Ciel’s rose as a deep red rose. Which is a bit different than red roses. But I am adding some relevant information about roses in general, anyway.

Now, on what they say about these flowers.

Deep rose, meaning "bashful shame". White lily, meaning "Purity and sweetness."

— The White Lily

Most people assume that the lily refers to Ciel's purity, and that’s a fair assumption. But I disagree. 

Firstly, the one holding the lily is Sebastian. Holding it on his right hand, tilted towards the right. However what's relevant here is the VIEWER. From the viewer's POV he's holding it to the left. Note he also holds the scissors on his left hand, where he bears HIS contract seal.

How you hold a flower, what position you give it to someone in, changes the meaning of the flower. These context clues are very important. It tells us that 'purity and sweetness' doesn’t refer to Ciel, but actually refers to Sebastian (…sorta).

This may be a little confusing. Purity and sweetness, Sebastian?! I know, I know. bear with me.

These books provide poems to help us understand how you may interpret the intended meaning. The lily poem is about enduring trials out of love because of the purity and sweetness he sees in his lover's eyes and soul. I believe Yana directly references the poems I will include in this post in her new artwork.

— My Interpretation

the meaning of Sebastian's lily is:

"I do all out of love for the sweetness and purity within you."

Him holding it to the contact seal and cutting the flower could stand for him destroying this sentiment (affection within himself) that has arisen in him as a result of their contract by destroying the sweetness and purity—the source of it—within Ciel (consuming his soul).

Note: This is debatable, as 'reversed' almost always means upside down. But if you consider the lily facing away from the viewer as reversed then it could mean "impurity and bitterness" which fits pretty well with Ciel, and it being held against the contract seal which is a physical representation of his impurity, brought on by his bitterness.

— The Deep Red Rose

There something I find very interesting. The rose is in a teacup, standing in for tea (I think there's even tea alongside it in the cup.) From Yana herself we know that Sebastian's eyes are a reference to the reddish brown colour of tea.

Like I said, I believe this rose to be a deep red rose, which is a bit more specific than the meaning given to red roses. However I think the poem included for roses in general very much applies here.

I was going to add my thoughts but I found this interpretation that sums it up pretty well if you replace the carpe diem theme with a more "running out of time" or "impending death" theme, which seems to be a more accurate reading for this artwork.

Looking at the rose itself, it has no thorns or leaves.

It is not a youthful rose as its already fully open and losing petals. "No hope, and no fear" fits with the poem, the rose is basically an hourglass referring to Ciel. His fate is unavoidable, but this isn't a deterrent. He's dancing on the ledge.

The deep red rose means 'bashful shame'.

When you compare it to the lily, which is a direct proclamation, the deep red rose is a quiet confession one cannot verbalize.

Debatable, to be fair but given the tie in to Sebastian's eye colour and the fact that he is always the one pouring tea for Ciel, I believe the Sebastian to be the speaker here too, but this time speaking on Ciel's feelings (Hence why he's the one holding it) rather than Sebastian's own. 

— My Interpretation

The meaning of the deep red rose Ciel holds, speaking about Ciel's feelings of guardedness, and in response saying:

"Abandon your bashful shame, and let yourself be admired without expectations (hope) or fear"

Sebastian speaks about Ciel's feelings, the deep red rose acknowledges his feelings but they remain unspoken.

The Waller poem is a plead for his beloved to seize the day, for time is short, and allow herself to be loved completely. 

Her beauty is one to be appreciated, she is not meant to be a rose unacknowledged (unloved) in the desert.

Regarding 'expectations', I think this is more about rigid ideas of how 'appreciation' or 'admiration, might be shown or received. Sebastian and Ciel's relationship defies normality or 'expectations'. So this, too, would defy expectations a young boy like Ciel, or a traumatised boy like Ciel, may have.

From Yana herself, we know Sebastian's dedication and how highly he holds 'beauty', specifically Ciel's beauty.

The author of the poem proclaims that beauty not appreciated is not beautiful indeeed, and so he calls his beloved to come to him and be appreciated wholly during the invaluable, limited time they have.

We see the deep red rose's petals fall away, in my opinion not only symbolising the withering away of time, but also the crumbling away of this "bashful shame" that Sebastian ascribes to Ciel.

How Sebastian wishes to "appreciate" this beauty is debatable. How he wants to "admire" and "desire" (per the poem) Ciel is rather open ended. Wether it be in a romantic way, a sexual way or by consuming his soul.

However, I don’t think these are mutually exclusive. And consuming Ciel can easily be a metaphor for the former two. 

— The Lily and The Rose

The Greeneaway book has this poem which im sure was directly referenced. This poem speaks about the lily and the rose in a direct power struggle and fight for dominance, until they eventually unite and reign as one.

Now when speaking about this "union", you could say it refers to their contract, but I don’t think so.

The contract ties them to each other, but it doesn’t necessarily unite them. So I believe 'unity' to be about the appreciation Sebastian speaks of Ciel opening up to. 

"The Lily" and "The Rose" might be interpreted as directly representing Sebastian and Ciel, and the unity that would come from them joining and becoming a truly complimentary pair. I think a power struggle and fight for being the one in control is very accurate way to describe their current dynamic in canon.

It may also be interpreted as "The Lily" and "The Rose" as being representations of their feelings and ideals previously. And then it would represent these two conflicting expressions—a loud  unrelenting and destructive devotion, and a guarded, bashful, unspoken reluctance— coming together and turning from conflicting to complimentary. 

Or as it tends to be with these things, both!

Either way all of this is expressed under the sense of impending doom created by their circumstances and the contract. So there's a sense of urgency permeating all of it.

Also clear to me is a sense of internal conflictedness coming from Sebastian's message that is usually only hinted at like this, and some people end up overlooking.

Sebastian desires Ciel deeply, but having him would also mean not being able to have him anymore.

Sebastian is torn and that’s why he attempts to cut the root of his wavering feelings represented by the lily. 

All of this makes me wonder about what's next, and if we will see these things said more blatantly. Foreshadowing with flower language and references like this, isn't exactly rare for Yana. I wonder if we will see this 'unity' come to be, and what necessary development Sebastian and Ciel will need to undergo to make it possible. As well as what shape it will take.

I also wonder very much about Ciel's perspective in all of this, as this was almost entirely from Sebastian's POV, but I think that's intentional. Ciel has his own goals and a lot on his mind. Sebastian's goal IS Ciel. So I assume he spends a lot more time thinking about Ciel and this kind of thing.

Thank you if you read the whole way through. Like I said before, even though the sources defending it are, my interpretation is not law and you're welcome to reach your own with the things presented.

Links for sources, including free public domain PDFs of the books mentioned are found at the end of my twitter thread.

— Thanks for reading! —

[ceoandslutler]

what even was this post on my home page

1) pedophilia and grooming are tragic irl phenomena. a fictional child being sexualised does not make anyone a pedophile. ships aren't "grooming". let's stop throwing that word around. let's not equate that crime to fictional thoughts. 1984 thought police behaviour atp. and this is coming from someone who doesn't write or consume fictional underage content.

2) this is just such a gross* mischaracterisation and generalisation of sebaciel shippers.

*gross as in the german word for utter/complete, not as in disgusting. which btw, extremely disrespectful to call other people "revolting" over... *checks notes* ..fictional ships

it's so rude and all kinds of presumptuous to assume some people have lesser cognitive ability than you to critically analyse a work simply because they see the main pairing that the creator is trying to promote in a romantic or sexual way. im not even a big fan of o!ciel being sexualised but the manga literally does it—why are we acting like the people who see it are delusional or stupid? the way this person's first post is alienating a part of the fandom by implying they're dumb just for shipping something..? is crazy. our analysis tags are full, we're not all writing porn 24/7 and EVEN IF SOME OF US ARE?? hello??? everyone in this fandom should accept the source material is extremely sexually charged. even non sbcl shippers are often writing/drawing sexually charged scenes either canon or fanon. anyway no reason to generalise people like this.

3) comparing the work of yana toboso to stories with intense sexual themes then acting like sebaciel shippers are the unhinged ones who are "scrap[ping] off any sort of character between those two and us[ing] them for their fetish niche fantasies" is a little wild. do you not realise those works are all disturbing and most of them sexually violent?

here's some proof in case anyone doesn't know those stories very well: frankenstein (sexual violence as a form of power/revenge), dracula (despite its queer themes, ultimately women's death is portrayed as something beautiful), even in wuthering heights (literally fetishistic sadomasochism)

like come on. are we being serious? sebaciel is the problem..?? you read all that and missed the fetishism and bdsm and rape/sexual violence?? or is it somehow okay if those works do it? but not if sebaciel shippers write about this stuff? why the double standard

4) it's really funny to me how they acknowledge care between sebaciel and somehow it's sebaciel shippers who are delusional. im sorry but not even most sebaciel shippers have such a simplified view of sebaciel; poetic as it sounds, "broken boy and heartless demon" is such a mischaracterisation of them. i don't care how anyone sees them but come ON, you can't criticise other people and call their behaviour "truly revolting" (!!) over a ship and then have such an infantile view of the characters.

5) "consummation of the contract"

nothing more to say. this has to be the craziest first post of a blog i have ever seen. please don't go looking for this person, they just said some funny things that i had to point out.

anyway same person's stance on generative AI... take from that what you will.

[steelbluehome]

Sebastian Stan as Carter Baizen in Gossip Girl

With the reference to Gossip Girl in Deadpool and Wolverine, and dropping "Hot Tub Time Machine" in Endgame, Sebastian Stan, the actor, is firmly placed into the MCU. So, like Ryan Reynolds, Josh Brolin, Chris Evans, and Robert Downey, Jr., technically, he has also played two different characters in the MCU!

[indigoipsum]

Quite possibly the dumbest thing I’ve ever drawn

[sebadztian]

Spoiler for ch. 214

Because if he was indeed Sebastian's ex, things are not looking good for the Sbcl nation, or even the Kuro's proshipper community in general.

There's a rumour going around that Polaris might be someone from Sebastian's past, most likely a former lover.

And I am scared.

Imagine if we learned that Sebastian had a lover and now they've been 'reunited'. Antis will be all over it, for sure. And what would become of Sbcl shippers?

We'd have an even bigger target on our backs. Antis will not shut up about them and they'd be louder and more obnoxious in condemming and harasing Sbcl shippers.

While Sebaciel or Sebapolar might be fictional, those antis are not and this is a potential real problem. Brace yourselves, people. Things are about to get crazy when we learn of Polaris' identity next month.

Here's hoping that he wasn't Sebastian's lover or boyfriend or anything like that...

[sdv-confessions]

Anyone that says Sebastian has no arc/personality has zero media literacy or understanding of complex mental illness.

Not all character development is supposed to be this “omg” moment of clarity and drastically changing your entire life — especially for someone with chronic depression like him. Sometimes, improvement is being able to get out of bed in the morning and finding a reason to be happy every day…which happens if you marry Seb and get to see his full arc.

He goes from a completely antisocial, insecure loner to someone who learns to put himself out there (when necessary; he’s still an introvert by nature) and begins to let down the walls he’s so carefully constructed. Honestly, romancing him is the best route because then you see how much generous, unconditional love can change a person who’s been under-appreciated for most of their life.

I get that his personality isn’t everyone’s jam but…just because you don’t understand or relate to a character doesn’t mean they aren’t a good one.

.

[cosmiclion]

"Dadbastian makes no sense and it's delusional because Sebastian's a demon who just wants to eat Ciel's soul and views humans in general as livestock!" People in real life can and often do find cows/pigs/chickens/etc cute while still being meat eaters. Meat farmers often care a lot about their animals and even are affectionate towards them. I myself raise insects as feeders for my frogs and said insects are my precious adorable babies and I give them the best life untill the end. These concepts can perfectly coexist. Also you're mean and I don't like you.

[sxilor-1010]

REGRVRHGEHRHRRGGRHRHRH I WANNA BITE HIM AFFECTIONATELY I WANNA HOLD HIM AND KISS HIM AND BITE HIS STUPID ARMS & NECK TILL I LEAVE MARKS

[portraitofadyke]

Yes yes Steve would always choose Bucky over anything BUT he would never let him work for the government that tried to use them like puppets and which tried to get Bucky shot on sight as their Hydra scapegoat. Like no Steve would smack some sense into him!! Go independent Bucky! Fuck the government and work with Sam! He is loyal to all his friends even if Bucky is Bucky and he would want Bucky to be on the right side

[buggitino]

more headcanons about sebastian solace from the hit game pressure roblox

back on my bullshit and i promise i only talk about The Situation a little bit

☆ his third arm is more sensitive than the other two (i'm thinking that either the USHD doctors fucked something up during the operation OR it grew in wrong, nerve endings closer to the epidermis and whatnot, something like that)

☆ just hates being touched in general, he’d rather initiate that contact (need an update where he gently —> not very gently shakes expendables off (depending on whether and how much they’ve annoyed/flashbanged him) when they climb him) ☆☆ part of this is due to trauma, he cant trust anyone to touch him without hurting him ☆☆ the other part is that he’s got that fucking dawg in him (i’ll get to this in a second)

☆ unlike what his new voice lines are starting to suggest about his character (i’m not gonna talk about zerum again because i think everyone knows what's happening at this point and ive already thrown in my two cents) he does NOT hate the expendables. literally his first line upon meeting him in his shop has him calling himself your friend (as strained of a connection as it may be, he could very easily not offer items, not share documentation/info, and just take the expendables data and hoard anything he picks up to make it harder for them to get to the crystal) (like yes, it's a mutually beneficial relationship but if sebastian didn't care about or sympathize with the expendables to some extent, it wouldn't be). i really do think he just has a short fuse (i'm not going to bring up trauma again, however-) and says things he doesn't mean (e.g. “they deserved it. and frankly so do the rest of you.” (im coping with the mischaracterization of these new lines leave me alone)) as a means of protecting himself and pushing the expendables further away (both physically and emotionally)

☆ he’ll act like a brat once they’re done, but he lets younger expendables sleep in his shop (he cares about them but would never in a million years let them know that) ☆☆ if a younger one comes in with a bunch of adult expendables, he’ll treat them all the same but will secretly slip the younger one some extra batteries, gauze, something unnoticeable (he feels especially responsible for the younger male expendables cause they remind him of his little brother)

☆ sometimes he thinks he can hear his family's voices on the radio, just under all the static, calling out for him like a search party would. he used to cry over this but he almost got caught once by an expendable coming into the shop so he does his best to tune it out. it’s hard. guilt pulls at his stomach every time he hears a clip of his family, begging for him to come home, to respond, something, anything, and he ignores it.

☆ autism (cause i said so) - i'm including this one for the sole reason that he does the dinosaur thing with his third arm and generally keeps his hands clasped together in the secret dinosaur position (he just like me fr) ☆☆ hates bright lights (the only light he uses/allows in his shop is the one he emits) (its a very soft/warm hue as opposed to the bright fluorescents throughout the rest of the facility) (not to bring up the flash beacon, obviously nobody likes getting flashbanged and he's got angler eyes but sTILL)

☆ he used to hate eating fish (pre-op) and now he’s pissed cause it’s all he has available and the DNA changes made it so fish is the yummiest tastiest thing in the world (i like imagining him actively fighting the urge to eat whatever fish he’s cooked in one bite cause he refuses to acknowledge that he's changed on a level that isn't physical/appearance-based)

☆ calls grown adults “kiddo” (even the ones that are older than him) ☆☆ he gets a certain kind of joy from seeing the 40/50/60 year old expendables try to figure out just how old he is after they get called “kiddo”. it’s extra fun for him when they’ve clearly already heard the rumors and/or gotten a glimpse of his file

☆ the ring is just an accessory, a bracelet on the floor or in a locker he found and liked. assumed nobody was gonna claim it and kept it (shoutout to @/lotus.eaterr on tik tok for this one!!!!)

[ephemerasnape]

Sebastian & Ominis Pre-Smut 🔞 NSFW

Ominis and Sebastian have a secret meeting in the Undercroft... with a surprise guest!

(Don't worry, they are "aged up")

(sound on, please!)

[silly-string-sys]

We used to be against transID alternatives while we were radqueer because we thought it was the same thing but for non-radqueers but that's not true.

What helped us into leaving the rqc was that a lot of the transIDs were based on stereotypes and were very fetishistic of the IDs they wanted to transition to. We became uncomfortable with trace, transabled etc because of that. transID alternatives are against fetishizing and not based in harmful stereotypes and are also against harmful transition.

Not only that but even if it was just transID for non-radqueers, that would be okay. Not everyone with atypicial dysphoria is radqueer and some alternatives have systems and headmates in mind and not all systems and plurals are radqueer.

-Sebastian