#so I had to write from the second one

[sundown-sunrise]

Ugh, sometimes I think any discussion with ultra-fans of anything is impossible, because as soon as you try to approach the topic from a different point of view (it's not even always a different point of view, but simply correcting misconceptions!), you immediately get blocked.

I've had this happen more than once with Ford ultra-fans in the Gravity Falls fandom (the ones who usually call themselves "Ford's Defenders" and I'm not saying that all "defenders" are the ultra-fans I mentioned, but unfortunately, I've only met such ones, if you one of those, sorry, it isn't about you) and these are always posts about sexual abuse. To be clear and not allow for confusion, I think that sexual violence in Billford is very clearly visible, it has been discussed more than once in the fandom and between fans, so I think most people know about it. My problem with these kinds of discussions from these kinds of ultra-fans is that they somehow think that they are the only ones who know about this and that it is "not talked about" (even though it has been talked about constantly since TBOB came out, especially in the summer 2024) and also that Billford fans "don't take it seriously" or "don't know about it/downplay it" and I kind of always come up with accusations like "what the hell are you talking about, this isn't even true???" not to mention the denial of a lot of canon or a very narrow view of Billford's relationship only in terms of sexual abuse and not in terms of the relationship itself, which was deeply abusive itself and rife with sexual abuse. You see the difference? It loses the characterization of both characters and what brought them together (if you can say so, it is obvious that it was Bill's accidental call by Ford + the recruitment of the new pawn on Bill's part, but I am talking specifically about how everything went far beyond the usual "master/student" (muse/scientist???) relationship) in the first place and the fact that the attraction was mutual (despite Bill's abusive relationship and his denial of that attraction).

It's just...as a fan of both of these characters and their relationships, it's deeply saddening to hear people like this say things like "if you ship them, you're minimizing the sexual abuse/failing to see that it's an abuser/victim relationship" and that's just a lie, everyone knows that, that's why so many people are into Billford in the first place, people love problematic relationships, that doesn't mean they don't understand the seriousness of sexual abuse or are in denial about it. Sure, it's likely that given how big this fandom is, there are people like that out there, I wouldn't be surprised, but it's definitely not the majority, since I haven't personally met any, and I've been in this fandom since 2016.

And literally today it happened to me again, I didn't even disagree with anything, I just corrected the misconceptions I mentioned above and said that I think Alex obviously understands that he wrote the SA hints into Billford on purpose, given how it was presented in TBOB and I also don't think that having a little humor somehow affects the seriousness of the perception, if you understand how the narrative of Gravity Falls works and... I was immediately blocked, who would have guessed...

I just want to have a normal discussion without insults and denial of reality, but right now it seems impossible :(

[courfee]

it's been exactly a year since the last chapter of Operation Walburga's Arbitrary No Kissing Ever Rule and I still miss it. This scene is probably one of my favourite things I've ever written and I've wanted to draw it for forever, so now seemed like an appropriate time

[dragqueenstarscream]

potential idea for a tfone starop fic bc i haven't seen much of those around:

i love the idea of a post tfone story where optimus and megatron are in a military stalemate, and things are looking ugly. optimus can't reason with megatron, but he also doesn't wanna launch an offensive which could lead to mass casualties, autobot or decepticon. he has no idea where to go from here.

cue a surprise visit from the last person optimus expected. as it turns out, starscream is still pissed that megatron humiliated him in front of the entire high guard, not to mention bearing the brunt of megatron's anger when things go sideways. starscream believes in the strength of one bot over another, and by that logic, there's really only one bot who's strong enough to put megatron in his place. (not to mention, orion forced d16 to spare him during the fight, and he hasn't forgotten that.)

optimus isn't sure what to think, but starscream gives him vital information, info optimus can use to launch a sabotage that could disrupt the decepticons with minimal casualties. optimus goes for it, and to his surprise, it works. starscream wasn't lying after all.

thus begins a slow burn as starscream and optimus continue to have their clandestine meetings, with starscream being optimus' newest double agent, and optimus trying to figure out what starscream's true motive is behind everything. of course, starscream tells optimus that he wants control of the high guard again, but optimus knows that there's another reason behind it. and starscream isn't about to tell him what it is anytime soon.

[fatedroses]

More than just the Demon.

[sarcosmiiic]

no cause i think one of the reasons any life series ship with grian is automatically so ironically stingingly tragic is that it's /his game/.

like putting aside the watchers for a second, grian created the life series. this is /his/ death game, his circus his monkeys. sure, when the person closest to him inevitably dies some gruesome death at his own hands, the pain in his chest still makes him want to jump off a cliff, run face first into a warden, fall a couple hundred blocks and splat, but...

it's still. /his game/.

when other players lose their teammate, it's tragic for them because their friend got ripped from them in an instant and there's nothing they can do. when grian loses someone close to him, it's all /his fault./ he made this game, he wrote the code, he said "if this then that if player gets ripped to shreds in a cactus pit, falls off a bridge in the sky, blows up in our own tower, then they die".

he just. never thinks he's gonna be the one to do it.

he knows it's just a game, he knows he can just hop back on hermitcraft and see his friends alive and well and not shredded splatted blown to pieces.

he just.

his game. his friends. his hands.

gets him every time.

[wandixx]

Count the freckles, connect them like the stars part 2, Pisces

Summary: Five time Danny found and drew constellations from M'gann's freckles and one time she did that for him

M’gann tried to not do it too often, but there was something really nice in going on a rant about something inconsequential. She was leading a stressful life, like all other heroes, teenage or not. It was impossible not to, when every other day could end in life-or-death situation, with innocent lives as additional stakes. Personally she thought she was quite good at handling it, too. She wasn’t the one to get frustrated easily, to explode at people over things that stressed her out in other parts of life, and lately she even got some useful coping mechanisms thanks to Black Canary. She certainly had bigger problems than characters in her sitcoms.

All it is to say, there was still something enjoyable in channeling pent-up stress into winded discussion about something she found absurd in old English poems or other elements of her homework.

“And it feels so dumb, like, man heard from some witches that he’d get promotion, which wasn’t that surprising, considering everything he’d done, and then become king, and then when he got said promotion by virtue of doing what he was doing, he decided he needs to force the fate”

“Exactly! Like, Macbeth, my man. Even if you assume these ladies are right, which, why would you do that, these were randoms by the road, this means you’re guaranteed to become king. Why kill your king, your friend who you’ve been wax poeting about few pages ago?!” Danny agreed passionately, waving his hands in righteous exasperation so much, that he almost tripped over his tea. In all honesty, he was M’gann’s favorite rant partner. Sometimes he’d ask «Do you need solution or someone to yell with?» and then he was always eager to match her energy and never tried to give her advice when she didn’t ask for it. On few occasions they stumbled upon resolution while egging each other on, but but that was never a point. The point was to complain about whatever until they both felt better about it.

“And maybe it makes sense and makes everything deeper or something, but who the hell is Hecate and why did she just show up? Like, can everyone stop acting like it’s obvious? Not everyone here is human” she whined, slightly redundant. After all, big part of why she was at school in the first place was because people assumed she was human too. Still it would be nice if things were explained a bit more.

“And it’s not even general human thing, just ‘Western’ culture thing. Hecate is goddess from Greek mythology, though I’m not sure why she was used here? Maybe because one of her things were crossroads. But still. She is not really well known. Like, bitch please, not everyone here knows mythology, give people breadcrumbs at least”

“Breadcrumbs?”

“Breadcrumbs. Tiny pieces of information that can lead you to the answer. It’s from some fairy tale, I think”

“Huh. Cool”

M’gann leaned back in her chair and looked at the high ceiling for a moment.

“I need to get around to making bread sometime soon. That could be fun”

Danny just hummed in agreement.

“But it’s hard to heat up the kitchen enough for dough to grow, since it’s connected to main area”

She saw out of the corner of her eye how Danny’s face scrunched up, deep in thought.

“I think Sam mentioned some recipe that let’s bread grow in fridge overnight. I can ask her about it, if you want”

Girl slumped back forward, to look at him surprised, to make sure he was serious.

“Would you?”

“Of course”

“Thanks”

She reached forward to get her own tea. Danny’s eyes followed her hands as if they were artifacts cursed so once you looked at them, you couldn’t look away. She mentally reached out, just a little, just slightly, to brush against his most surface level thoughts to see what got hims so intrigued. Not any deeper, just–

Ah. He found stars in her freckles again. He wasn’t sure if he should mention it.

M’gann wondered how she could ask about it without bringing up the fact that she read his thoughts. Sometimes it was hard to balance between what his comfort and hers. Without telepathy, people’s moods were downright indecipherable, but she knew humans didn’t really see it the same way, and couldn’t separate public thoughts from private ones.

She needed something with hands, something with–

“Unrelated human culture question, girl at my school offered to do some palm reading on me, do you know what does it mean?” she asked, bringing her hands forward a bit. She hoped he’d take them, but didn’t want to make it too obvious. He did, careful warm fingers grasping her left wrist and flipping it palm up.

She slowly moved pen over to where they sat with her telekinesis, doing her best to not call any attention to it.

“It’s a superstition. Some people believe they can read future based on the lines on people’s hands,” he explained, feather-light finger tracing it “It’s usually stuff like how long will you live, something about your love life, maybe some other things? I don’t know much, I always preferred other forms of pseudoscience.”

“Like what?”

“Astrology~” he said with pizzazz, flipping her hand again, “and you have Pisces, which means you’re caring, optimistic, kind and sweet”

M’gann couldn’t help but laugh. She tried to keep open mind to all different Earth concepts, to not treat them as stupid, even if she considered them absurd, but this one caught her off guard. It was fine though. Danny laughed too.

“Does it really?” she deadpanned, after they both calmed down.

“Yeah!” He mindlessly grabbed the pen and started drawing line just below her knuckles “Pisces is one of the Zodiac Constellations, which is this sort of belt of stars that Sun passes through over the year. Each constellation is supposed to take up 30° of the sky and has assigned time to it, based on when Sun is in opposition of it, so it’s best visible at night. People born during that time have specific Zodiac Sign. Like I said, some people believe it affects people’s personalities and life. I’m Gemini, so allegedly, I’m really curious, playful and adaptable–”

“It’s not wrong.”

“Eh,” he stopped drawing to look at her and wave his hand in so-so motion, “Unfortunately some people get really intense and rude about it, so they’d say I’m two-faced and inconsistent or some shit and then decide they should never talk to me again. Personally I see it as dumb fun though,” he finished, scratching against her skin to write visible lines. M’gann was sure this particular pen normally wrote smoothly, but it seemed like skin made it a bit harder to use. It was alright, she liked the slightly tingly feeling it left behind.

“And my zodiac sign is Pisces?”

"I mean, you're not from Earth and I don't know when you were born, so it's hard to say"

"Right, dumb question"

Danny stopped again and stared at her intensely, suddenly deep in thought. M'gann carefully didn't peek, even though she was curious.

"It isn't," he started slowly, "Mars is close enough that parallax doesn't really affect way stars are in relation to each other, at least from what I read, so you probably could see Zodiac Belt from the surface. We can try extrapolating Earth Zodiac to Martian year and based on that see what was most likely visible when you were born. That could be pretty neat exercise"

"Huh. Are our stars really the same?"

"Yeah, it's really cool, but I don't get it enough to really explain," Danny answered, sounding genuinely bothered by the fact. This just wouldn't do, it was supposed to be time for them to unwind.

"It's fine. Maybe next time."

"Maybe next time"

"What's the story behind Pisces? Like the one you told me about Virgo and three Goddesses?"

Danny relaxed, though he quickly turned a bit sheepish.

"Funny story… There is no story" M'gann forcefully tramped down her disappointment.

"So, was Virgo only constellation with the story?" she asked, trying not to grumble. She enjoyed listening to Danny, when he was so excited, with shining eyes and almost glowing. Sometimes, it was hard to get that out of him, even if he genuinely felt it. M’gann was careful to not look to deep into his mind, so she didn’t actually know why at times he kept repressing every bit of excitement he seemed to feel. She was determined to let it surface far more often.

And these were nice stories too.

“No, don’t worry,” Danny said, not quite laughing, but with this type of projection about him, “It's just Pisces really. I think it was because Greeks adopted Babylonian Zodiac and had to scramble to find anything that could be set as origin story for each constellation. For everything else they found something, more or less matching, but Pisces proved to be difficult. Virgo is supposed to look like Maiden and other Zodiac also has assigned something they look like and based on that myths were assigned. Pisces is said to be two fishes that are tied together by their tails but nobody knows why they'd be that. One idea I heard was that they were fish that lead Aphrodite’s chariot after she came to be from sea foam. Aphrodite was Greek Goddess of Beauty and Romantic Love and was born from Uranus' blood that fallen down on see when his son injured him. I'm not sure if said fishes even appeared in any other Aphrodite myths, or even most versions of her origin story, so I don't think this counts. But I like the way it looks. It's pretty."

M'gann looked down on her palm, where Danny successfully kept upon drawing. She didn't really see what could be so pretty about this particular shape, she thought it was no different to other ones she saw, when Danny drew or when she later went to check it out, but who was she to disregard his sense of aesthetics. Maybe it was something specific to how human or ghost brains were wired.

"It's fine," After a moment she added "So, Pisces have no story and some humans can be weirdly intense about stars on night of others birth”

“Exactly”

“And I’m Zodiacless”

“For now… Ha! I’m done!”

When M’gann looked at it again, she still had trouble seeing fishes in it, but at this point she came to understand that humans were really good at finding things in most random places.

Danny was staring at her, when she looked up from wobbly drawing. He grinned, like he was barely stopping himself from laughter.

“Don’t worry, I don’t know how anyone saw fish there either”

[uniiiquehecrt]

Voice actors are NOT the same as actors.

It takes a specific kind of skill-set and training to be able to warp and meld the voice. It takes a certain kind of talent and dedication to hone that talent into the ability to meld the voice and invoke emotion with one's voice alone. Actors are used to using their voice secondarily to their body language and their facial expressions. It's all mirrored back on camera. They do have nuance. But it's a different kind of nuance and a different kind of training to produce that nuance.

Voice actors might get their likeness transposed on their character's design, and maybe their mannerisms might seep into the character's animation. But when it's all said and done: their presence is in their voice. They are bringing a character to life, showing that emotion in their voice, trying to keep a specific accent, drawl, pitch, tone in that voice and keep it consistent for their recording sessions.

The voice actor is like a classically trained musician who can play first chair in a competitive, world-renown orchestra. The actor (who fills the voice actor's role) is like a moot who played violin in beginner and intermediate high school orchestra and thinks they can get into Juilliard with that 2-4 years of experience.

This doesn't mean that the HS orchestra moot can't play. They can even be really good at it. Maybe they won competitions and sat first chair. But they are not in the same league as the person who's been training their whole lives and lives and breathes to hone their craft using the instrument and all of the training they've ever acquired to perfect it. They are not meant for the same roles. They are not in the same caliber. You do not hire the HS equivalent when you want to play complex music in a competitive orchestra.

Actors are not the same as voice actors.

And furthermore, actors - especially big name actors - taking the roles of animated characters for big budget films or TV pilots makes no sense anyways when - at least in the case of TV pilots - there's not a point to hiring a big budget actors anyways. That money could be used elsewhere (like paying your animators), and the talent that is brought onto the screen for X character could then be hired on to voice said character no recasting required.

I wouldn't say voice acting as a profession is in danger exactly, but it's certainly being disrespected and overlooked for celebrity clout, and this has ALWAYS been an issue. Shoot, even Robin Williams knew that much - which is why he tried so hard not to be used as a marketing chess piece for Aladdin and got royally pissed off when it happened anyways. People shouldn't go to any movie (but especially not animated films) because "oh famous actor is in it". People should go because it's a good movie and the voice acting is good.

People who honest to god think that voice actors are replaceable because "oh well anyone can voice act" or "I like xyz celebrity so naturally it'll be good" ... Honestly I just wish you'd reassess your priorities because you're missing the point and are part of the problem.

Voice Actors ≠ Actors.

[omegalomania]

we do not know and might not ever know the full story behind mania and the circumstances under which it was produced but we know enough by now to understand that there was a lot of strife and frustration involved in the way it came about. the band has been clear on this much. the divisive reception upon release didn't help any. and we know the last time that happened with folie, it led to that record essentially being forgotten and aggressively sidelined for years afterward. the roughness of its reception was explicitly one of the things that patrick especially cited as difficult for him to look back on, and one of the reasons it took so long for him to embrace those songs again.

it took mania five years what took folie a full hiatus and double that time.

this too is healing.

[itspileofgoodthings]

I don’t even fully know why but “what do I do when I miss you so much?” / “Just wait, and pray desperately” was a knife to my heart in the best way.

[rantsofabookworm]

tadc e5 spoilers below

i have Many Thoughts.

so I've seen a lot of people talking about jax and ragatha ofc. bunnydoll shippers yeah but also a surprising number of theories that they're siblings.

if im gonna be completely honest I can see the sibling dynamic angle there but I don't think thats the case here??

that being said they definitely have some kind of relationship thats different than with the other characters. it seems like they know each other more closely than anyone else--theres a level of casualty in their interactions and in their reactions to what the other person says to the rest of the group sometimes.

like for example the bar scene when ragatha is talking about her mom and jax looks away. im sure that means something. he knows something else about that info that ragatha isn't sharing with the rest of the group. and then again when ragatha brings up jaxs friend (dont worry ill talk about them in a minute) and apologizes for it later? theres history there obviously but also. they know how to hurt each other in a way that I don't think they can with anyone else in the show. jax gives everyone shit but its always like. generic. its not personal in the way that ragathas jab at him in the fireflies scene was. and before that when he's talking to pomni about her. he's saying real things about ragatha (and then catches himself and finishes with lol she's Dumb and she Looks Weird haha) and

idk it just seems a lot more personal between them than other characters but its Way too antagonistic to be a ship imo. so I have constructed a working theory that they are exes. they used to date and theyre still kind of trying to be friends? just because. theres only like six people to talk to in the circus and whatever. so theyre semi amicable out of necessity but theres still that conflict there, beneath all the layers of bullshit jax and ragatha keep putting on over their real selves. they hate each other. but theyre also the only ones who really know each other.

ANYWAY

lets talk about ribbit :)

obviously they were jaxs friend. maybe his only friend? and they abstracted. what actually happened there isn't clear but I think it was jaxs fault based on his reactions when ribbit is mentioned or that part where their door is shown in the intermission.

so there are some interesting layers to that theory.

now if jax caused ribbit to abstract (like kinger potentially caused queenie to abstract? which is why he doesn't remember it cause he blocked it out) he's probably really guilty about it. maybe not consciously but every time ribbit comes up he gets quiet.

maybe he knows it was his fault. and he feels guilty and all that. or maybe that only exists in his subconscious--maybe he believes that he didn't do anything, and he acts out and. is a dick. to suppress the part of his brain that feels guilty. Either way this has the grounds for a complete breakdown if he's pushed in just the right way.

now it gets a bit interesting. maybe jax got close with ribbit after breaking up with ragatha? maybe they were friends before, but after that breakup ribbit became jaxs Only friend.

or the more fun (not fun for jax) option: Ragatha Blames Jax. after ribbit abstracted, ragatha confronted him and broke up with him because of what he did/said to ribbit.

lets pivot a little bit!

people seem to think ragatha is heading in the direction of abstracting next. there are mixed feelings about this perceived outcome in the show, but I think theyre right.

ragatha has been slowly breaking down over the course of the show as her optimistic facade is getting dismissed more and more. this episode, we got to see her leave it behind a little bit, in her jabs at jax but also opening up at the bar a little bit and opening up to pomni in the dugout. pomni encourages her to drop the facade more and show her negative side.

at the end of the episode ragatha is alone. this is where she sees the effects of her optimism and fake cheer and how theyre driving everyone away. whether this drives her to finally ditch the optimism and express her real personality or whether she doubles down on it to try and get people back on her side is still up in the air but either way I think we're heading for a total ragatha breakdown in the next episode or two. she's been suppressing herself for so long that I think any expression of negative emotion atp is going to explode in everyone's face like it did with jax and pomni in the dugout, only on a larger scale. and when that outburst happens, it could be just enough to tip her over into abstraction. and on the flip side, if she doubles down and keeps herself suppressed and people-pleasing to win the group over? that wont hold forever. and when she finally cracks, she'll crack hard.

now the actual abstracting itself? I think it'll be everyone's fault. they all have a hand in abandoning her, undervaluing her, dismissing her. but the thing to really push her over is going to be jax. we all know it'll be jax. they've been highlighting a jax vs ragatha conflict since the very first episode and we've seen time and time again that they are better than anyone at getting under each other's skin.

so ragatha will explode at everyone. and jax says or does something that Just pushes her over the line, and thats it. she's gone. she abstracts.

so yeah the next couple episodes should be fun :)

[theolderguards]

scrolling through tumblr and loving the fact that because The Pitt has become quite popular, people are going back to watching ER (WHICH WAS MY WHOLE LIFE WHEN I WAS GROWING UP YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW!!!) and now there's always a lot of ER gifsets on my dash and it makes me so happy but I'm also sitting here wishing someone would gif one of my favorite scenes from my favorite episode....

and then I remembered I MAKE GIFS NOW 🤣🤣🤣

[aromanticasterisms]

the epic highs and lows of rereading your own writing to seek out parts you disliked and analyze Why you disliked them to do better in the future

[shoot-i-messed-up]

…ngl the Ilana & Rick dynamic was more interesting before they fucked

[some-pers0n]

interesting ideas about AI art and by no means am I trying to send hate but I believe majority of people hate AI art is because it's truly just the byproduct of a giant plinko board bouncing through pieces of art made by artists who put love and care and SOUL into their work. A visual product of a math formula. While it's "art" in the most litteral sense, not having a true human behind it putting though and effort into its every detail, for many people (myself included) devalues it from a tradition artists work.

I'm a firm believer in the idea that AI art is inherently unequal to non Ai art, specifically for this reason. (Hope this made sense sorry if it's incoherent)

I agree in that sense there. I personally do not find myself wanting to engage in a work when I purposefully know the creator had used AI to create the entire product. Something something,,,I cannot find myself getting invested in something that is little more than a product. I don't wanna read a fic about my blorbos when it was written by Chat-GPT

I also agree with the idea that a lot of people hate AI art because of this heavily emotional, debatably reactionary mindset that stems from one thing: fairness. It's the same sort of emotion I find one gets if all of the work on a group project gets shafted onto them whilst their fellow peers sit idly by. It feels unfair to sink hours into your craft, spending all this time fighting to develop your skills and flourish as an artist, only to see someone type half a paragraph and have a machine spit back something that looks not half bad. Let's be honest with ourselves here and say that AI art, at least in a visual regard, has progressed quite a bit to the point where most of the mistakes people find can be dismissed as wonky perspective and the line art being a bit fucky, which is something a ton of artists struggle with too

People develop a sort of a superiority complex over it. I can't blame them honestly. A number of times I've felt it too when people tell me they're using Chat-GPT as though it were Google and when I see my family members and friends playing around with AI art. I gotta bite my tongue and choke back a chortle, both because it's kind of a dick move and also because I don't want to relish in this feeling. It's infectious though to feel as though you have an edge over another person just because you abstain from using Chat-GPT or whatever. Not to be all "grrgrgrr you should LOVE Chat-GPT and if you dare to say anything bad then you are EVILL!!" of course though. It's emotions. They're messy, intense, and oftentimes you don't really realize when you're feeling since you get locked into your perspective. Yet, I think it's important to realize a lot of hatred of this generative AI stems from emotions. Reactionary ideals and claims stem from emotions after all

I think ultimately what the conversation about generative AI should revolve around is about the concerns of labour. The several strikes from a while back from VFX artists and scriptwriters come to mind. They are most at stake from generative AI as tools like Chat-GPT are cheaper and more cost-effective than paying an actual employee for their time and effort. I would also mention the environmental issues, but if we were to talk about that we would also have to acknowledge the fact that so, so much water is being used up daily to generate power for servers. Hell, this post alone will probably contribute to drying up some marsh in the greater scheme of things

Anywho yada yada TL;DR: I agree yes but I also think it's important to recognize that a good chunk of your hatred to Chat-GPT stems from feeling cheated and a sense of pride and superiority over others for simply not using it. There is no quality to Chat-GPT that makes it inherently evil. I can't get upset at my grandma for sending me a photo of her and her dog that went through an AI anime filter. I can feel maybe some exhaustion when seeing a fellow classmate using Chat-GPT to write their essay, but ultimately I write my own work for the love of the game. I can get upset however at those in higher power who use it to push artists out of jobs. Chat-GPT is a tool that has its pros and cons and I think it's reductive to just basically sit there and hiss like a vampire when presented with a cross when faced with the mere word "AI", especially when your only big argument for disliking it is based purely in feeling cheated when someone types a prompt into a program and art that would've taken you seven hours to draw gets spit out in about a minute or two

[quatregats]

Thinking a lot of thoughts about Hornblower's relationships with Barbara and Maria as a metaphor for his larger relationship to social mobility and ambition, and I think there's actually a lot there - not sure if it was intentional, but I do think that whether intentionally or inadvertently, Forester did an interesting job with the parallels.

Quick note beforehand that some of this is based on my constant brief paging through C. Northcote Parkinson's Hornblower "biography", which, while I absolutely abhor his interpretation of Hornblower, gives even more food for thought on this point. I'm also leaning more into his interpretation of Hornblower's background and childhood, as opposed to the TV show's, so it might not work if you're coming from the TV show's perspective.

Parkinson takes Forester's comment that Hornblower was a "doctor's son" to mean that he was the son of an apothecary, rather than a physician like in the show. I'm not a historian of the period, so I would be hard-pressed to actually try to fit Hornblower's father within the 18th-century framework of medical practice, but either way, given his awkwardness around upper-class life and that he seems to have grown up in rural Kent, I think that Parkinson's claim that he was the son of an apothecary, rather than a physician, does have some reasonable foundation, or is at least equally plausible (to me) as the show's.

Hornblower struggles with poverty through most of the series, especially the first half, but even when he is barely scraping by, such as at the start of Lieutenant, this does not seem to be an abnormal state; and when he finally arrives at wealth and success, he constantly wishes to go back to the days when he was a penniless lieutenant, so from this we might also surmise that he did not come from wealth. (I'm also comparing especially to Jack Aubrey, who, while he admittedly makes a hash of coming into large amounts of money, and who also lives perfectly happily on very little, is clearly quite comfortable being the "lord of the manor" by comparison.)

One of the biggest changes in the second half of the series (from The Happy Return/Beat to Quarters onward) is that Hornblower's career comes into fruition; he becomes a decorated Captain, a member of the landed gentry, a Knight of Bath, a Peer, and finally an admiral, and marries into an enormously influential family. He's constantly in conflict about this, until he isn't: he wants to become someone powerful and important, except that he doesn't like the role once he gets it, and constantly wishes about the old days, then feels guilty for wishing for them. Most importantly, he seems to become less and less himself, his mental narrative getting more and more distorted as he tries to mold himself into the person he thinks he wants to be.

I don't think this is a particular novel interpretation, but I think that in light of this, the contrast between his marriage to Maria and his marriage to Barbara is very interesting. If he was an apothecary's son, his and Maria's marriage would make a decent amount of sense - they'd be from similar social backgrounds, and probably a reasonable match, if Hornblower's career had continued as expected. Hornblower feels comfortable around Maria at the start of their friendship and the very beginning of their marriage in a way that mirrors his comfort with the life he's living at that point - which is to say that he clearly knows and understands what's expected of him and how to interact, in clear contrast with later books. But on the other hand, for all that he originally does love Maria, Hornblower comes to find her to be coarse, unrefined, and boring, and feel that she is not good enough for the person he wants to become. It's at the point when he starts to feel that he's moved passed Maria that he begins to take on his new, ambitious, performative persona.

On the other hand, Hornblower feels stiff and uncomfortable around Barbara from the beginning of their relationship, notably for reasons of class, and even in later books, consistently sounds intimidated by her poise and upper-class untouchability. With Maria he doesn't feel enough for her; with Barbara he feels too much, an almost uncouth sentimentality. He craves Barbara's status like a man drowning, but can't hold up under the weight of what it would mean. They have very strong intellectual chemistry, but socially they are a disaster of a couple, and yet nonetheless, Hornblower continues with the marriage because it feels to him like the thing he ought to do, just as he ought to become squire of Smallbridge. He's so viscerally uncomfortable with his position in the later books in a way he wasn't even at the height of his earlier miseries, but he refuses to let himself admit that his ambitions might have led him astray.

I think it's also interesting that the relationship which Hornblower arguably finds the most fulfilling (or rather, it was written very poorly if Forester wanted to make it feel fulfilling for the reader, but nonetheless it was clearly meant to be the most fulfilling for Hornblower) is his relationship with Marie, who sits at a similar odd juncture to him. In the text, Forester says outright that Marie fulfills Hornblower's interest in upper-class women (ambition) while not intimidating him, yet still being a satisfying intellectual partner. Nonetheless, just as Marie and Hornblower can never actually end up together, Hornblower can never actually be comfortable with his position, and no matter how many times he tries to find solace in her, he is eventually forced to continue down the path that he began, making up with Barbara and fully taking up the mantle of Admiral and Peer of the Realm.

In short, I think that watching the way in which Hornblower's relationship with Maria evolves over the course of the early books and the way in which his relationship with Barbara takes up after that ends up being a very neat parallel to his own ambitions and class identity. With Maria he is at home, but bored and restless; with Barbara he gets everything that he wants, but feels like a fish out of water. I think that particular parallel is part of the particular tragedy of Hornblower - he can't ever be satisfied with the person he was, or the person he's become. But I think that adding in aspects of extreme class difference - even more class difference than the general trends of social mobility during this period - also helps to elucidate the fundamental tension which drives Hornblower forward as a character. The world he came from was too small for him; the world in which he moves now is far too big; but there's no in-between option. He has to choose what he wants to be, and sacrifice some part of himself in order to do that, and in light of this reading of him, I think that there's a lot of interesting dilemmas to be raised.

[zestyzigzagoon]

holy shit wait, happy first birthday to Chasing Sunsets!!!