asoiafnerd

[asoiafnerd]

The moral of an Anti-War story and the endgame of ASoIaF

The biggest problem that the show has right now is D&D that it doesn’t seem that it will answer the question “So humans didn’t actually have to unite to defeat the Others?”. But it has some solid defenses, namely the question of “Do you think the humans are going to stay united after the Dead are defeated? Of course not, they are going to go back to their games of thrones. So why shouldn’t the show portray it?"

An answer to this is that it alters the story being told. “The petty politics and the game of thrones is stupid, and humans need to band together against true evil” seems to be the theme of ASoIaF, but the show seems to be making “who will sit on the Iron Throne” the main story. Most people have been saying that Dany may still go mad in the books, but for the story to stay true to GRRM’s famous anti-war sentiments, the battle for the Iron Throne cannot be the final battle. Who will win cannot be the point of an anti-war book! But what if we have misidentified the true evil in ASoIaF? What if… prepare to hear something you’ve never heard of before… the true evil are the humans?

I’m not saying GRRM’s telling us that humans are the true evil in the world. Any anti-war story needs to tell not that war is inevitable, but that people need to set aside their petty differences. But the way that the books go about it, an outside personification of evil, has always been unsatisfactory to me. Of course, people will unite against the Others. There is no other choice. The Others don’t work as the perfect metaphor for the human emotion of hate as they are usually thought to do precisely because they are so easily identified to be a metaphor for human emotion of hate. No one possessing a sane mind would just decide not to fight them, or, make a tv series where a character makes such a choice. If GRRM loves the human mind in conflict with itself so much, why is he writing about a conflict between humans and ice monsters?

So, does that mean that the show got it right? Because clearly, they are showing that humans are the villains after everything is said and done. But I don’t think so. By now, I h ave come to the conclusion that GRRM’s outline for D&D showed that the battle for the Iron Throne was the endgame, but D&D simply didn’t understand the significance of it (or didn’t care). I think that D&D have fucked up the story they were telling. They have shown immense ineptitude in understanding ASoIaF for its themes. In fact, they think themes are for 8th grade book reports. And so, the story of people becoming the very thing they swore to destroy and then touching the light has denigrated into an incoherent mess where the only takeaway message is that war is inevitable. The wheel that keeps spinning.

But if what I am saying is true, then that means that GRRM’s outline wouldn’t show the humans uniting to fight the War for Dawn. This may seem inconceivable, but it actually solves a lot of problems. In making theories for the books, one of the things that always seem to trouble the theorists is that they keep trying to end the war for the Iron Throne before the war for Dawn starts. But uniting all the different factions situated across continents and motivations is next to impossible. However, if we assume that the humans uniting is not a necessary condition, then we don’t have to jump through hoops to kill Stannis soon after dealing with the Boltons, deal with Aegon and Cersei and Euron, and then still bring Sansa, Jon, Tyrion and Dany on the same sides of the battle lines against the Others.

I believe that in the books, humans won’t be united in the battle for Dawn. And there is precedent for this, something we love in ASoIaF. In the books, we have multiple accounts of different heroes defeating the first Long Night. What this all means, and what I propose, is that in the books, there will be multiple factions that will fight, defeat and/or survive the Long Night, possibly separately, each doing different things, or doing their parts.

What these factions will be, can be guessed at by something the show has ignored. The three heads of the dragon.

The dragon has three heads. There are two men in the world who I can trust, if I can find them. I will not be alone then. We will be three against the world, like Aegon and his sisters.

Dany VI, ASoS

If this isn't a setup for a huge twist, I don't know what is. It falls right there with Jaime thinking about (figuratively) dethroning Cersei and doing right by Tommen and Myrcella. Yeah right, keep dreaming pal! It’s a very standard plot device, make a character want something, and then take them as far away from that thing as possible.

Thus, I believe that the three heads of the are all going to fight the Others. I have my theories of who these heads are going to be and how the endgame will actually play out on the pages, but that’s part of another post, if I make one. Here, suffice it to say that the three heads will fight the Others in different factions. Maybe they will join their forces, but they will not trust each other. Through the Battle for the Dawn, together or apart, they will end up rucking up grudges against each other. Then, in the end, when the Long Night retreats, they will go into the dawn to paint the sun red.

Dany won’t be alone in her claim on the Iron Throne after the Battle for Dawn has ended. The show shows her fighting the person who holds KL, and also having problems with the reveal saying R+L=J. Thus, Aegon and Dany and Jon will fight each other – in whatever pairs that they will – and the realm will descend into war all over again. In this fight, however, Dany’s case will be special, because there are still prophecies in store for her.

Daenerys is supposed to drink from the cup of ice. I hold that her drink from the cup of ice will match the volume of her drink from the cup of fire. To match the dragons and her Targ bloodline, the drink from the cup of ice must mean that she turns toward the magic of the Others. GRRM has said that near the end, the Green Men will come to the fore of the story, maybe this is how it will happen. Or she will help Euron make a comeback. Whichever way it happens, Dany turning to the Others is how the books will show that our heroes have survived the Long Night only to become the villains.

Maybe next Monday, some character in GoT will drop a line about how they have become the very thing they swore to destroy. But it won’t mean anything, because they’ve butchered the story. However, in the books, Dany is supposed to touch the light after she has passed under the shadow. This arc will be her conflict of the mind; not only touching light, saving the world and all, but also her journey under the shadow. That will be her madness in the books. It won’t be (just?)burning KL. Like the show her madness will come after the Others have been defeated, but unlike the show, it will not be triggered by one tolling bell. It will be more like the madness of her father. Sporadic and seemingly justifiable, but increasing over time.

And after wreaking havoc over the land she loved, she will realize what she has done. She will realize that she is no long the breaker of chains. There, war was necessary, here, it is her doing. Most likely, they will all realize what they are doing. Or, better yet, they will help each other realize it – the three heads of the dragon uniting. Whatever happens, however, in the end, Dany will touch the light; thereby making the moral of the story that war is an avoidable choice, as the moral of any anti-war story should be.

[asoiafnerd]

Are you going to update your fanfic or have you abandoned it?

Hi, I'm sorry I took so long to respond, I rarely open Tumblr unless I have something to post. And sadly, I have abandoned the fanfic. The first reason being that I started writing something original, and the second, maybe the most important, being that I found the Night Lamp theory and saw that Stannis had a way of staying alive, an awesome way at that. Then I just couldn't proceed with a fanfic that I had him dead in, nor could I forgive myself for killing him 😢😢😢

[asoiafnerd]

Some good old wisdom in here

Me, a humble fic farmer, tending her plot of land: neighbor john said there was a shipwar starting just over the hills. what do you think Ma, do you think we’ll ever see a shipwar?

Ma, clutching her apron to her chest: oh dear, I hope not!

Pa, sitting in his rocking chair and smoking his pipe: hmph! there’s always been shipwars and there will always be shipwars. you just keep your nose out of it and mind your own business. we ain’t got no business messing around in shipwars. now step to it! i want that field of headcanons and plot twists plowed by morning! and keep those plot bunnies from getting at the smut, we can’t afford anymore WIPs!

[asoiafnerd]

Can't decide if I love the beautiful art more or hate the Sansan theme more.

Please, can you or your followers help me find the most beautiful piece of ASOIAF art I’ve ever seen.... it was in a woodcut etched style, of the scene where Arya leaves the Hound slumped against a tree to die beside the Trident. But in the reflection in the water, he’s relaxing against the tree, and Arya is reflected as Sansa playing a harp. I can’t remember where I saw it, but it’s been years and I’m still thinking about it, it moved me that much

Ah, you’ve described it perfectly – that’s the fantastic bubug’s beautiful strange waters of the Trident.

Always a favorite, such a perfect depiction of this scene…

[asoiafnerd]

The Princes of Dragonstone and their choices.

"Able. That above all. Determined, deliberate, dutiful, single-minded..."

This quote has Ser Barristan describing Rhaegar to his sister. But it could easily be describing Stannis. And before you use Stannis' running away to Dragonstone in anger after Ned Stark was appointed Hand to call him not-dutiful, remember when Rhaegar was working against his father? The parallel between the two is that they are dutiful to the Kingdom.

...but born of the same incest. Another monster in the making. Another leech upon the land... (Davos VI, ASoS)

But this is only the start. The parallels between Stannis and Rhaegar run rampant through the story. In fact, I think that the entirety of Stannis' story is supposed to mirror that of Rhaegar's, and that these two stories are going to be used to reinforce each other and explain each other. Because, essentially, both of these arcs run along the same theme: Rulers making hard choices for the good of their kingdom.

Both were the Princes of Dragonstone. Both were politically active and against the establishment. Both dabbled in prophecy and sorcery. Both had most likely had a supernatural mentor; Stannis has Melisandre, and Rhaegar probably was influenced by the Ghost of High Heart, according to a theory by /u/cautuse on reddit. Both were thought to be prophecized figures; Stannis the AA, and Rhaegar the Prince that was Promised. And both are later found out to be wrong. Both cheated on their wives (Assuming Stannis slept with Melisandre). Both hid in a place away from the realm when the realm could have really used them. For both of them, the majority of their life struggle was political, against the backdrop of the supernatural; the Rhaegar-Aerys divide in KL that reminded Pycelle about the days of Viserys I, and Stannis' quest for his throne. And for both of them, this political struggle gets supplanted by the supernatural; for Rhaegar it is getting Lyanna pregnant to extract Jon, and for Stannis, it will be burning Shireen to get... god knows what.

As I said, I believe that the stories of Stannis and Rhaegar are supposed to reinforce the understanding of each other's stories. So if Stannis burns Shireen to get a win over the Others, what does it tell us about what Rhaegar did to Lyanna? Previously, I made a post about the political reasons why the 'love story' scenario is improbable. But that was the political part, and this is the supernatural part: Given the parallels between Stannis and Rhaegar, Rhaegar made a sacrifice mirroring that of Stannis'. As I outlined in the aforementioned post, Lyanna said no to carrying Rhaegar's child, and Rhaegar made the difficult choice for the good of his realm.

This was the case of Stannis' choice reinforcing that of Rhaegar's. The reverse happens when we consider the outcome of these sacrifices. Many in the fandom think that Stannis' sacrifice won't work, and that he will die in the backlash that follows the burning of his daughter (the Northmen and King's Men vs. Queen's men divide?). But what happened when Rhaegar's actions generated a backlash? Despite whether Rhaegar did really rape Lyanna Stark or not, he got accused of it all the same and lost his kingdom, half his family, and his life. (That Stannis gets a backlash for something he did do reinforces the idea that Rhaegar got the backlash for something he did do. Namely, kidnapping and raping Lyanna Stark). And yet, something emerged from this sacrifice: Jon Snow, a direct link to the endgame. And so it will be for Stannis' sacrifice.

"This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end and then some." (Jaime IX, ASoS)

Burning Shireen will be the 'bitter end', and the 'then some' will be Stannis riding to his doom in his last fight, whatever that may be, just like Rhaegar rode to his doom after his sacrifice was complete. But just as Rhaegar's sacrificed worked, something will emerge from Stannis' sacrifice. In the end, both the Princes of Dragonstone will have lost everything and died, their houses nearly destroyed (or living through a bastard or two, because Dany probably can't conceive) and both will have made a brutal sacrifice that will affect the endgame, but won't be looked upon by the majority of characters, and indeed, quite possibly, by many in the fandom, in a favorable light. (Only GRRM can effect parallels outside the books. Rhaegar and Stannis each have a fan base that thinks the sun shines out of their every orifice, and a hater base that thinks they are both entitled assholes obsessed with prophecies).

[asoiafnerd]

Ned Stark is called stupid, Robb idealist (I recently saw a post on Reddit which speculated on whether if Robb had been more ruthless, never mind there never was any evidence that he pulled his punches or where he was inconvenienced because of it, might he have won the war), but it is in the North that we see the North Remembers plot, whereas Jaime himself observes the funeral procession of Tywin heading west and thinks Even in the West, Lord Tywin had been more respected than beloved. In the North we have people marching to save Ned’s girl, while Kevan plotted to have Cersei walk the streets of King’s Landing naked, and the Lannister swords stood aside and let it happen. There is a reason why Jaime has Brienne while Cersei is alone. The question of whether the ends justify the means is never answered, but that is not because of the successes of Tywin or someone like that, it is because of people like Stannis. For Tywin, as turtle-paced points out, the ends don’t aren’t even that great.

“Honor gets you killed” seems to be one of the themes in ASOIAF. Does this mean that characters like Jaime will eventually die because of it? Not to say that Jaime is the most honorable of them all, but he seems to think about it a lot.

Ah, one of my pet peeves! “Honour gets you killed” is most certainly not one of the themes of the book series, A Song of Ice and Fire. 

Honour might get you killed, in this series. So might love (the virtue that really killed Ned, by the way). So might sheer bad luck. Virtue alone may not save you, and GRRM’s pushing back against genre conventions where that exact sort of thing happens. The right thing to do might not be clear, and there may be no good solutions to any given moral problem. This does not change any moral imperative to fight injustice and wrongdoing, to try and make the world better, however you are able.

Just to take a good, clear Jaime example of what GRRM’s after, there’s the bear pit. What makes it a “yes!” moment isn’t the fact that Jaime defeats the bear, because he does no such thing. Nor is he killed off for doing such a daft thing as jumping unarmed and un-handed into a bear pit, as he would be in a series where honour gets you killed. What makes it a “yes!” moment is the fact that he decided to do the right thing. With every reason in the world to save his own skin, he decided to put that aside and do his best to save Brienne from a grisly death. Succeed or fail, he did the best thing he knew he could have done, and that is what GRRM is trying to say is important. 

This is also why characters like Ned and Robb don’t lose the narrative’s sympathy (as opposed to the sympathy of certain audience members) following their deaths; they might have died and they might have been able to be more effective, but Ned was trying to keep war to a minimum and to protect children from someone who would have murdered them, while Robb married Jeyne to prevent her totally unfair disgrace. In spite of their failures, their willingness to put others before themselves is still worth something.

Conversely, the people who live by the principle that honour is for chumps aren’t currently finding long-term success, and it’s precisely because of that attitude. Nobody trusts them, not even their own families. They cannot build anything, they cannot restore peace, and they’re currently destroying themselves. This is the basic narrative of AFFC and ADWD.

Given all that, Jaime’s not getting killed off for anything as simple as thinking too much about honour.

[asoiafnerd]

Does this Mummer's Dragon has us all fooled?

Daemon dreamed that a dragon would be born at Whitewalls, and it was. The fool just got the color wrong.

- Brynden 'The Bloodraven' Rivers, The Mystery Knight

The quote is about how a young Aegon the Fifth, a boy of, like, 12, chose to be frightening rather than frightened, and, even though his actions didn't really change the outcome of the rebellion, he became a dragon. Now what does this tell us about Aegon the Sixth?

When Dany saw the Mummer's dragon, she was seeing what Aegon was at the moment when he conquered King's Landing, someone bring controlled by people he can't see. But that doesn't mean he can't break free of those chains. It doesn't mean that a True Dragon can't be born from him. Could Aegon V hatching into a dragon post birth be a foreshadowing for Aegon VI hatching as well? There is the discussion of colors of the dragons here too.

There are theories of King Aegon being the son of Illyrio, or just some Blackfyre bastard, and also the common sense that the spymaster should try to spirit the heir of the kingdom into hiding as soon as the news if the trident came to KL. None of these scenarios prevent him from being a mummer's dragon however, as an unhatched dragon. And none of these prevent him from hatching into a true dragon either.

Furthermore, the Mummer's Dragon vision comes in the triplet of Dany being the slayer of lies. Most interpret this as evidence that Dany will kill Aegon. I rather think, knowing how prophecies love to be ambiguous, that this vision is about Dany killing not Aegon, but the lie there is (similar as to how the Stannis part of the vision can be interpreted to have Dany prove that she/someone other than Stannis is the Azor Ahai, thereby slaying the lie that Stannis is the Azor Ahai, and not necessarily having to kill Stannis himself). She will slay the Mummer's Dragon, that is to say, she will, intentionally or otherwise, cause Aegon to hatch. To get him to come into his element.

GRRM has said that the third head of the dragon doesn't necessarily have to be a Targaryen. The way I see it, GRRM used the wording "doesn't necessarily have to be", a Targaryen, because he isn't going to reveal Aegon's parentage. Aegon has the full potential of being the third head of the dragon, and I think that he will become one, in response to something Daenerys does, and when he does, we won't necessarily know that he is/isn't a Targ.

[asoiafnerd]

Seven Point Story Structure by Dan Wells - Applied to ASoIaF

All stories have structure. Some structure, at least. Even those that defy expectations and tropes. Dan Wells, the author of I'm Not a Serial Killer and other horror and Sci-Fi books, has put forth the Seven Point System of storytelling, and he claimed in his talk, that most stories follow this structure, intentionally or otherwise.

So of course, being the ardent ASoIaF fan, I had to see if this structure applies to ASoIaF as well, especially because Wells asks us to construct the story by envisioning the end first, and then create a starting point, which he calls the Hook, as the complete opposite of the End Point. So, with no end in sight for ASoIaF, my question was, can we turn this process around and predict the end with our knowledge of the start?

The first step is to see whether ASoIaF follows the Seven Point System. And surprisingly, I have found that it does, and not only in plot points, but in character arcs as well. The structure of Dan Wells develops as follows. He tells us to go in the order of creating the plot points in the order: The Resolution, The Hook, Midpoint, Plot Turn 1, Plot Turn 2, Pinch 1 and Pinch 2 (which is also the order in which I would suggest you read the following table). The general meanings of these points are:

As an example, I have attached the image of how Wells thinks Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone, and Edger Allen Poe’s The Telltale Heart follow this structure (Spoilers):

(taken from the aforementioned videos)

Putting this in context of AGoT, we have the ending of a world at war. So, GRRM started the novel with a world at peace. Next, Wells recommends writing the midpoint, a clear shift from the starting point to the ending goal. In my mind, Catelyn kidnapping Tyrion fits the description. Next were two plot twists, and then the two pinches. I have put what I think as the appropriate events for these criteria for each of the books in the table below (Again, recommended to be read in the order that they were constructed):

A Game of Thrones:

A Clash of Kings:

I’m a little uncomfortable with Dany’s arc in this analysis, but she literally has only five chapters in this book, which ends in a weird place, according to racefortheironthrone. This book, and the next, basically are the Pinch 1 to her overall story. In another point, as we can see, in the case of a bad resolution, seemingly good things act as the Pinch 2 for Catelyn: a hopeful thing that says things might turn out good, or seemingly having an upper hand, that is to say, add pressure against the resolution.

A Storm of Swords:

Robb’s arc here is the most awkward, but this is really the Plot Turn 2 and the Resolution of his overall arc. Same with Tyrion, with the end of this book marking the midpoint of his overall arc.

A Feast for Crows:

A Dance With Dragons:

Anybody else not liking Q’s arc? I mean, no one really liked it, but I am talking about the way it was presented in this analysis here. The endpoint of Quentyn’s arc is that he died/failed on his quest, but the start isn’t really that he embarked on a quest. The start is more like: A reluctant, frightened Q with no experience goes on a quest. We have seen such ambiguous pairs of starts and ends before, with Tyrion and Robb and Catelyn and Dany, but they were in the middle of an overall arc. Here, Quentyn’s arc is complete in this book alone. Unless… Unless Quentyn is actually alive and his real end in this book was “A Quentyn who has faced death and most likely is not afraid of anything anymore, has shrugged off the longing for girls and a stable home because has gotten swept up in power, and now only cares about Dorne.” This ending fits rather well, I think.

I know this is already the kind of argument made for Quentyn's arc, among other, far better ones. But I am not trying to convince you here that Q is alive and flying, this is but a demonstration of knowing the start allowing us to predict the obscure end we like. You may not agree that Quentyn is alive, but we know so many of the starting points of TWoW, and many times can even guess the midpoints, that we might be able to make better predictions for the ends. How did the series start? We were getting books. How will the series end? We won't get the books... that sort of thing. It's only simple math!

In the next part of this post, I will examine character arcs, but let me give you a teaser:

Let's examine Eddard Stark, who has a two-layered arc:

The midpoint of his plot comes too early, but really, what does he do after he goes to KL? Just dicks around a bit. Hosts a few Tourneys and disappoints us again and again. It is his character plot that is more interesting. We all know that the real ending of Ned Stark’s arc is the revelation that he lied to protect his sister’s baby. The interesting thing is that Ned Stark doesn’t undergo any character development through the story. He doesn’t change. He lied before, he lies again. It is his perception that matters, as it does in The Telltale Heart. In that story, the protagonist tells us that he/she is sane, and we, in the end, conclude that he/she, is, in fact, insane (I mean, they hear a dead heart beating. They're bonkers). And it is at the midpoint, when the narrator kills the old man, is where we start considering that the narrator is insane, because they actually acted on this impulse that most of us feel on a daily basis, to kill that annoying person. In the case of Ned Stark, in the end, we see him lying to the kingdom for his family, something he refused to Littlefinger. But it is at the midpoint, where he confronts Cersei and asks himself whether he would have done anything differently had it been a child of his body in the line that we begin considering that Ned Stark might not be above letting certain dishonorable things not only slide, but commit himself. This then comes to fruition in the two endings he has been given - his two lies. Such a perception arc happens with Stannis in ASoS as well. The midpoint of his arc in that book is that the readers start liking him (At least I did), and later we might also be suspecting through such mechanisms that he isn't so rigid about laws, that he maybe did allow the oathbreaking Mance to live. And the question we could ask now, is might this be something that his endpoint is influenced by?

Part 2 coming soon…

[asoiafnerd]

Fucking Hell!!!

That moment when you realize that Cersei would have never let this happen if Shireen was her daughter. She would have rather set fire to Westeros than watch her child burn.

[asoiafnerd]

“Stannis fans are the cancer of the community”. Let me correct you good sir! The cancer of the community are the people who disregard the true lore and awesome universe GRRM has given us himself. You might call us zealots, but just know there people who support all different kinds of houses just like us that are calling out the utter garbage that D&D have done to the world of “A Song of Ice and Fire”. Until the one true king dies in the books we will never bend the knee to anyone else. If the show has also done a disservice to the house you support we also call upon you to raise your banners. We are united and won’t let these people destroy the universe we enjoy more than they already have.

He’s not dead till he’s dead in the books. And if he dies, we will place Shireen on the Iron Throne. Or die trying.

[asoiafnerd]

if ur ever sad remember that stannis canoncially gets h8 mail from a 10 yr old

[asoiafnerd]

Daenerys Targaryen and “Madness”

So…y’all should know that calling women “crazy” has a long misogynistic history, and that this fandom has long called Dany mad for absolutely everything that she does, but also the idea of madness has a specific connotation in Dany’s story, because she’s both fighting against her own family history and the conceptions of herself as a young woman, plus the fact that she’s an abuse victim who has been gaslit her entire life by men. So madness is something that comes up a lot in her story.

“No. He cannot have my son.” She would not weep, she decided. She would not shiver with fear. The Usurper has woken the dragon now, she told herself … and her eyes went to the dragon’s eggs resting in their nest of dark velvet. The shifting lamplight limned their stony scales, and shimmering motes of jade and scarlet and gold swam in the air around them, like courtiers around a king.   

Was it madness that seized her then, born of fear? Or some strange wisdom buried in her blood? Dany could not have said. She heard her own voice saying, “Ser Jorah, light the brazier.”  

“Khaleesi?” The knight looked at her strangely. “It is so hot. Are you certain?”

She had never been so certain. “Yes. I … I have a chill. Light the brazier.”

He bowed. “As you command.”   

When the coals were afire, Dany sent Ser Jorah from her. She had to be alone to do what she must do. This is madness, she told herself as she lifted the black-and-scarlet egg from the velvet. It will only crack and burn, and it’s so beautiful, Ser Jorah will call me a fool if I ruin it, and yet, and yet …   

Cradling the egg with both hands, she carried it to the fire and pushed it down amongst the burning coals. The black scales seemed to glow as they drank the heat. Flames licked against the stone with small red tongues. Dany placed the other two eggs beside the black one in the fire. As she stepped back from the brazier, the breath trembled in her throat.

Dany’s certainty that she has to put the dragon eggs in the fire comes from something inside her that she doesn’t understand and isn’t quite sure whether to trust, because she’s been taught her whole life to doubt herself and her own opinions. Yet she is certain, even as she describes this certainty as “madness.”

She could feel the eyes of the khalasar on her as she entered her tent. The Dothraki were muttering and giving her strange sideways looks from the corners of their dark almond eyes. They thought her mad, Dany realized. Perhaps she was. She would know soon enough. If I look back I am lost.  

“If I look back I am lost” will become a refrain in Dany’s narrative, as she learns to trust her own judgements and decisions. When she learns from Ser Barristan about the truth about her father, she starts to question whether her own mind can be trusted. And although it is important for Dany to learn about the atrocities her father committed, the idea that her blood is “tainted” is an ableist one that I wish GRRM hadn’t pushed so hard in the narrative. It’s sometimes hard to tell whether Martin wants us to believe in something as true, or question it as something the characters believe that is not objectively true, and many fans believe unquestionably that nonsense about the gods flipping a coin every time a Targaryen is born. Mental illness can be inherited genetically, but treating people like ticking time bombs is not reasonable or humane and equating mental illness with violence or vice versa is also grossly ableist. Dany isn’t “mad” for enacting feudal violence the same way men do in these books.

[asoiafnerd]

As per yesterday’s postings on strange fandom wishes for Sansa’s endgame, sometimes I equally don’t understand people wanting her to be this cold, aloof ice queen ruling alone.  I think the show has probably contributed to that imagery, because it doesn’t really exist in the books .  Again there’s that strong woman = emotionally severed from most other human beings BS that keeps popping up.  There is an underlying good intention of wanting her safe that should be acknowledged, but sometimes it’s at the expense of ignoring her characterization.    

If anything she was closer to being cold and aloof at the start of AGOT.  Courtesy and politeness are not equal substitutes for warmth and kindness.  Then by TWOW sample, we see she’s evolved to being self-assured and magnetic.  She’s no longer constrained by strict adherence to class boundaries and proper behavior.  She throws her arms around Lothor Brune in an impulsive hug for his support.  Younger Sansa would never hug a servant like that.  She runs like a free spirit with Myranda Royce not caring what anyone thinks.  This is not a woman shrinking back from the world, but someone who has seen much and still finding reasons to embrace other people.  Even difficult people.  She’s exceedingly patient with SR, talks him through his fears, and gives him just enough firmness that he starts behaving better.  She’s a natural nurturer and a good parent who has envisioned children in her future. 

And she still wants someone to love her for herself.  She’s only evolved to a point in the later books of being able to discern who wants her and who wants her claim.  The only reason she is entertaining this idea of marrying Harry is because it’s the hand she’s been dealt and she must decide if she is willing to play that hand if she wants to go home.  But there’s no rose colored glasses here.  She’s looking at him with a very critical eye.  There wouldn’t be a sense of settling here if she didn’t still hope that someone would like her as a person and equally important that she likes him too.  Wanting real love is not stupid or naive, only the way she pursued it and thought about it was.  Her standards have actually gotten much higher and tougher to pass muster.  

I feel sometimes as Sansa is a character that is screaming who she is and very few actually listen.  She’s grown even more loving, passionate, and intimately connected to others.  She’s become even more nurturing and maternal.  She’s more authentic, engaging, and kind.  She’s someone that draws strength from her connections to others.  I don’t understand how it would somehow be better for her that she winds up alone, childless, and immersing herself in a purely political life.  Just why?  Why would that be a kindness to wish for her when she’s repeatedly wished for the opposite?  It could not be more clear how important love and family is to her.  Not just her siblings and parents, but a family of her own someday.  Is love and family somehow incompatible with being a good leader?  Is love and family not compatible with overcoming her past trauma?  I absolutely despise all the implications of the lone ice queen and I see no evidence that this is what George intends.  The Sansa we’re seeing is stronger than a lone ice queen.  She’s seen how some of the most evil people in Westeros operate, experienced abuse and exploitation, and has every reason to never trust another soul again.  She still doesn’t retreat from people or life, she runs toward them and is willing to put herself out there again to find what’s real and good.  Her dreams are still mostly the same, just re-calibrated and balanced with experience.  Alone and aloof would be a absolute tragedy for her character, worse than dying.  It would really be the real death of her character.  

[asoiafnerd]

Arya’s interactions with Weasel are underrated.

She could hear Yoren shouting commands. Something bumped against her leg, and she glanced down to discover the crying girl clutching her. “Get away!” She wrenched her leg free. “What are you doing up here? Run and hide someplace, you stupid.” She shoved the girl away.

The first time they come under attack Weasel clutches at Arya and Arya tells her to run and hide. The girl doesn’t listen, she’s too frightened.

Arya spied the crying girl sitting in the middle of the chaos, surrounded by smoke and slaughter. She grabbed her by the hand and pulled her to her feet as the others raced ahead. The girl wouldn’t walk, even when slapped. Arya dragged her with her right hand while she held Needle in the left.

Hot Pie stepped out of the barn. “Arry, come on! Lommy’s gone, leave her if she won’t come!” Stubbornly, Arya dragged all the harder, pulling the crying girl along. Hot Pie scuttled back inside, abandoning them… but Gendry came back, the fire shining so bright on his polished helm that the horns seemed to glow orange. He ran to them, and hoisted the crying girl up over his shoulder. “Run!”

Yoren told Arya to get as many of the children out as she can, Weasel and the boys, and that’s what she does. Hot Pie says to leave the girl behind but Arya won’t, even when it looks like they’ll be abandoned. Then Gendry comes back, helping, and says again “Run.”

“Tunnel’s narrow,” Gendry shouted. “How do we get her through?” “Pull her,” Arya said. “Push her.”

Arya is a major reason Weasel lives, and the little girl grows closer to Arya..

Arya had eaten a bug once when she was little, just to make Sansa screech, so she hadn’t been afraid to eat another. Weasel wasn’t either, but Hot Pie retched up the beetle he tried to swallow, and Lommy and Gendry wouldn’t even try.

At the sound of her voice, Weasel came creeping out from the bushes. Lommy had named her that. He said she looked like a weasel, which wasn’t true, but they couldn’t keep on calling her the crying girl after she finally stopped crying. Her mouth was filthy. Arya hoped she hadn’t been eating mud again.

The Weasel put her arms around her leg, clutching tight. Sometimes she did that now.

Arya also becomes protective of Weasel and takes care of her.

Arya tugged at the Weasel’s matted hair, thinking it might be best to hack it off.

“That crying girl’s no use either.” “You leave Weasel alone, she’s just scared and hungry is all.”

Lommy and Hot Pie almost shit themselves when she stepped out of the trees behind them. “Quiet,” she told them, putting an arm around Weasel when the little girl came running up.

Weasel has some better instincts than Lommy and Hot Pie. Once she was able to stop crying she can think well enough to hide, and when the group is under threat again, Weasel does exactly what Arya told her to the first time, she runs.

The man with the torch searched around under the trees. “Are you the last? Baker boy said there was a girl.” “She ran off when she heard you coming,” Lommy said. “You made a lot of noise.” And Arya thought, Run, Weasel, run as far as you can, run and hide and never come back.

I’d like to think it saved her life, even though it probably didn’t.

[asoiafnerd]

So many of them in ASoIaF.

And so many people miss them

In regards to the question about Renly, my question would be, is there a better way forward for his general political direction? Like a permanent great council and elective monarchy in the future seems like a possibility to me.

That is absolutely not Renly’s “general political direction” and it points to how Renly is profoundly misunderstood by the fandom. Despite his pretentions to meritocracy and popularity, Renly does not believe in the concept of an elective monarchy or Great Councils at all. He says this directly:

“Robb will set aside his crown if you and your brother will do the same,” she said, hoping it was true. She would make it true if she must; Robb would listen to her, even if his lords would not. “Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them.”

Renly laughed. “Tell me, my lady, do direwolves vote on who should lead the pack?” Brienne brought the king’s gauntlets and greathelm, crowned with golden antlers that would add a foot and a half to his height. “The time for talk is done. Now we see who is stronger.” Renly pulled a lobstered green-and-gold gauntlet over his left hand, while Brienne knelt to buckle on his belt, heavy with the weight of longsword and dagger.”

When you take away the witty repartee, Renly’s political theory is naked tyranny - his personal excellence or popularity only matter to the extent that they attract soldiers to install him as king by force of arms, and you can see how paper-thin those rationalizations are when Catelyn tells him to put his money where his mouth is and stand for election in front of the political community and Renly says no. 

I’m honestly perplexed how people keep missing the fact that Renly is a hollow man: the thematics are everywhere, from Donal Noye comparing him to copper to Maester Cressen remembering him as a pageantry-obsessed attention-seeking child. The tragedy of Brienne in ACOK is that Renly doesn’t give a damn about her (as Loras says later, “Renly thought she was absurd. A woman dressed in man’s mail, pretending to be a knight”), he only gives her the cloak because Barristan didn’t show up and he knows he can make use of her (“He said that all his other knights wanted things of him, castles or honors or riches, but all that Brienne wanted was to die for him”), he knows she’s in love with him and treats her like a dog he can summon and dismiss whenever he wants (”His words seemed to strike the girl harder than any blow she had taken that afternoon. “As you will, Your Grace.” Brienne sat, eyes downcast.”). 

And as I’ve explained in my recaps of AGOT and ACOK, Renly does all of this knowing that Joffrey is not Robert’s heir, that Stannis is telling the truth, that he himself has no right to be king. HE IS A BAD MAN WITH GOOD PR.

[asoiafnerd]

Since there is so much evidence about what a scumbag Renly was why on earth would the show writers make him the best of the three Baratheon brothers? It makes no sense to me.

Because GRRM, in his tricksy wisdom, also made Renly intelligent, funny, and genuinely charming and then made his main opponents people who aren’t. 

When we first encounter Renly in Sansa I and Eddard III, not only is he a young Robert without the alcoholism and Targ-murder-boner, but he’s also making fun of the Lannisters who we’re being primed to hate even more because they’re trying to execute dogs. (Although if you think about it, isn’t it interesting that Renly comes off so well despite not lifting a finger to actually help?)

Then when we encounter him again in ACOK, he’s being contrasted against Stannis, who we’re also primed to dislike (so that the face turn works in ASOS). Remember, Stannis is introduced allowing walking empathy magnet Maester Cressen to be humiliated, and the next image we have of him before he meets with Renly is him joining a scary cult (another example of how priming wrong-foots people: Melisandre). And again, look at their meeting:

Again, on the surface, Renly’s the one with the better japes, the peach, and he’s the one who’s going to get horribly murdered so there’s the sympathy factor as well. 

The case for Renly falls apart when you step back, ignore all of the surface qualities, and ask yourself what has he actually done and what has he actually said. And that’s when you start to see all of the subtle thematic and character work GRRM has been doing in the background. 

My guess? Benioff and Weiss aren’t very good at literary analysis and simply missed that second layer. 

[asoiafnerd]

He, with beard...

Catelyn VIII - let’s go to war!