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elvirayyy · 4 years ago

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Sans is a Darkner Theory (Debunk), Monster Biology, The Rules of this World, and other mysterious questions to preoccupy one’s mind – The META POST.

Now, before we begin with this HUGE BEAST. (I’m not joking better open this up in its own tab.) Let me say that this post contains SPOILERS for CHAPTER 2. I’ve tagged this as a spoiler already but if you are here somehow and haven’t finished Chapter 2 yet. GO BACK.

Okay. Now. There is another thing we need to get out of the way before we can truly start. Here is an author’s note on how I generally approach these kinds of things:

Disproven until proven (explicitly so/if directly stated by the game)

I follow canon facts to the Death (because it’s important)

Take note that when I speculate that something is very likely it is still at the end a speculation until the game proves it to be canon (I like to be accurate about these kinds of things)

This is not a post to demean Theories or Headcanons. Or the people that came up with them. (Theories are fun! I just am a filthy meta person who likes canon and lore)

Maybe you know me from this response post I did years back on this [Headcanon].

“Do you have any theories that you like at all?” – Yes, yes. This is my favorite Crack Theory.

Please understand me that I sometimes like to be a bit salty. Do not take my jokes seriously. I’m a soft person. Like mochi. The fandom has just made me unhinged.

1.[Sans is a Darkner Theory]

This post is kind of a response post to @cellydawn’s post here and rebuttal to the whole theory in of itself. Maybe read for full clarity that post first? As I am going to quote four points from the original and explain my own thoughts about them. This is what initally also inspired me to write this post. Let’s begin.

Toby’s own standpoint on the connection between DELTARUNE and UNDERTALE:

Essentially, this is not the world of UNDERTALE. If you completed UNDERTALE, the ending and world are as you left it. DELTARUNE's world is a different one. With different characters, that have lived different lives. It's a different world that might even have different rules. That doesn't mean there will be no connections at all though.

Why am I mentioning this? Because a big part on this theory hangs on the assumption that we are working with the same Sans here from Undertale. Most of it relies on what we know from the previous game. Deltarune has different rules and its characters have lived different lives.

I won’t go over every little detail that seems to support this theory. As I’ve seen a couple of posts already mentioning and dissecting this. I will go over some main points. To make clear however: this is not a post about if Sans and Papyrus came from another world in Undertale (I do believe they did come from somewhere else), and/or if that place was Deltarune or not. This is all about Sans being a Darkner.

And this theory has one glaring hole I have for some reason not yet seen addressed. Trust me, you will love it. You will understand why I won’t need to debunk every little detail. Because that one fact will destroy the legs this theory tries to stand on.

Back when Chapter 1 came out – this theory found its birth, and I remember being floored and in support of it. Reading a reddit post, my first exposure to this theory, I was entranced by the numerous connections. Because things seemed seamlessly to click into place and there was not too much against it. Everything made sense. (Only one fact didn’t.)

Now with Chapter 2 being out Deltarune is on another reawakened hypetrain. (The fact became stronger.) And I came back to investigating and theorizing.

Let’s start debunking:

1.Undertale!Sans and Deltarune!Sans have identical sprites.

Every other monster we know has gotten a redesign. besides froggit. Sans sprite stayed the same. But what would you really change about his sprite anyway? The monsters had theirs changed to fit the thematic of Hometown. Toriel’s robe wouldn’t really fit as a teacher’s role. Same with Alphys. And Asgore’s and Toriel’s redesigns aren’t even new. You see them wearing those outfits in the Pacifist Ending Credits. Guess what Sans was wearing in the credits? Yep, his usual outfit.

2.Clam Girl talking about a “Suzy” and the “don’t forget” note with the three smiling people

This was Toby hinting that something was coming. That something being the reveal of DELTARUNE. It’s also probably the biggest evidence of somehow linking these two worlds together.

(Were Sans and Papyrus literally universe-hopping, having met our three heroes (Ralsei, how?), and then ended up in the Underground?

This would imply Deltarune came before Undertale [at least in the lives of Sans and Papyrus]. But it has a couple holes in it. It again implies that these characters are the same. And Sans’ and Toriel’s first meeting doesn’t make sense in Undertale, neither does that Papyrus has no idea what the Sun is or what a Human looks like. Not to mention Papyrus might have met Alphys and Undyne in Deltarune prior. So, why is he in Undertale again suspicious of Sans and Alphys knowing each other?)

UNDERTALE and DELTARUNE do have a connection. But as you can see, it’s more complicated than that. We don’t know why Sans has that note, and Papyrus destroys the possibility of them being from Deltarune – or at least the Deltarune that we know of.

It might just have been Toby hinting at what was coming.

3.Sans “going to grillbys” in Undertale, and Sans’ first appearance in Deltarune before what looks suspiciously like Grillby��s

This one is kind of the opposite take of the previous point. It might be a homage to what happened in the Genocide Route. But it mustn’t really be an exclusive for that route. In UT Sans is known to hang out at Grillby’s a lot. While in DR it’s his own shop now.

Let me again repeat Toby’s words, ‘Please don't worry about those characters, and that world. It will remain untouched.’

This doesn’t work if you never did a Genocide. And when you really think about it – it doesn’t make any sense either. At the end of Genocide you erase the world. Regardless if you want to speculate if Sans survived the fight or not. Everyone is gone and dead after that. If he was able to somehow book it to Deltarune, why did he not already do that beforehand? Sans clearly tells you he is just as trapped as everyone else in the Underground. He gave up long trying to go back to wherever it was he was before. Plus, Papyrus is clearly alive in DR?? Next you will tell me we didn’t really kill Papyrus either smh…

Again. UT Sans being DR Sans is pure crack. How did we get here.

Not every little thing means something crazy.

What however is interesting is that Sans and Papyrus appearance mirrors a parallel to their arrival in Snowdin. They’re new in town. And hardly know anyone. None of the town citizens are really talking about them. You would at least think they would mention the bar that has turned into a convenience store. Maybe Grillby’s wasn’t a thing in Hometown. But shouldn’t someone talk about the new shop then? The scratched out writing on Grillby’s also implies that Grillby must be around somewhere, right? Maybe he was previously the shop owner in DR? Maybe he sold the store to Sans and is the one that needs to pay the tab now lmao, who knows? We at least do see one fire elemental’s appearance again.

4.Sans is a Darkner because of his connection to Gaster, and Gaster is the Knight or has a connection to the Knight. aka man Gaster is really shady in DR what the hell is he up to

And to this I say: This is again Undertale knowledge. Yes, Sans has a connection to Gaster. In UT. What do we actually know about DR Sans? For all we know, Toby could play us again like a fiddle. Does DR Sans even like science and sci-fi? Before you think to laugh about this question.

Consider that Toby quite literally played a joke on the whole fandom with how Chapter 1 ended.

Everyone was freaking out about Chara being in DR or it somehow being connected to Chara. Despite it making absolutely no sense. The fandom was so brainwashed it tried to somehow cram a character that had no indication of even being in the story to fit its narrative. Did people forget that at some point “Chara” was supposed to be “you”? That you were supposed to type in your name and Chara itself was just a placeholder and joke for ‘character’? (Yes, even with it being the “true name”.) It’s you who commits Genocide. Chara. That’s you. Quite sad how you don’t want to take responsibility…but then again; making those kind of choices…you thought you were above consequences anyway, didn’t you? So let’s throw a character under the bus that had nothing to do with it. Which was meant to represent “you” anyway.

I remember even thinking to myself because I had no other explanation: man, wouldn’t it be funny if Kris just wanted to eat the pie and that’s why they took out the knife lol?

And guess what. THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

Not only that but some characters have major differences in their life in DR:

1.The yellow Librarby monster (that previously worked in the Librarby in UT) hates libraries and prefers the newspapers.

2.Alphys might not know about alternate universes in this world – she is just a teacher (that likes Mew Mew Kissy Cutie 2 cursed) [No experiments happened, no amalagamates, the monsters just fell down as they would have initially without intervention.]

3.Alphys and Undyne don’t/didn’t know each other (they are only now (CH2) slowly traversing to becoming like their UT counterparts).

4.In similar fashion, Catty and Bratty are rivals.

5.Mettaton/Happstablook is a nobody, never receiving a robot body from Alphys (which Spamton gets as an upgrade in his fight and it gets mentioned by Swatch as a dream he once helped create with his colors – “That robot was the embodiment of a Lightner's dream, filled with their own hope, giving it an incredible power”.)

(If anything, chapter 2 feels like a journey where we see some of the character become more like their UT counterparts – Undyne gifting chocolates to Alphys, Catty admitting she had fun with Bratty, Mettaton wanting you to bring him something for entertainment (possibly making him into the star that he deserves to be even without a robot body?))

So with all that…

What do we know about DR Sans actually? We know that he occasionally breaks the fourth wall like usually, puns like a goof, and loves his bro and wants him to have friends. That’s it.

We don’t even know if his door in his house is still doing the weird fire thing beneath. Maybe Papyrus is the one that loves science in DR. I actually think Sans is just a normal dude in DR.

You know why?

Because the rules are different.

There is no indication of Toriel using fire magic to cook.

In UT monsters don’t get sick like humans. We have only one clear example of how monsters are being able to be sick: via poison/ingesting harmful substances to the monster (Asgore and the buttercups)

But something is clearly going on with Rudy. Furthermore, Noelle even tells you how she wishes she knew healing magic like in the video game she was playing with her dad.

But Noelle knows healing magic in the Dark World.

This tells me that while monsters have the potential for magic, they can only draw it out in the Dark World.

So, if this applies to all Lightners…

Then Sans quite literally can’t do his shortcut bullshit anymore.

You heard me. Sans got nerved lmao

(If Sans legit has no clue about alternate universes then this revelation is killing me because omfg he literally just thinks you’re a freaking weirdo acting like you know him lmao no wonder he gives you a fake number, you idiot baby. and then you can be even more creepy to him by mentioning his brother without his knowledge in chapter 2. Sans has a right to be concerned about that asdfgfnkfjn;;;)

I’m half over the fence with this assumption already. We have yet to see actual magic in the Light World. (Not counting the fountains as that is DETERMINATION)

Another thing is that you need to explain to Noelle what battles are the first time you are pulled into a fight and tell her to ACT. (Similar to how Ralsei explains the battle system in Chapter 1 to Kris, and ACTing to Susie.)

Battles and Encounters are not a normal occurrence in DR like in UT. Not in the Light World.

When Noelle hears the explanation her mind goes: Oh! So, like in a video game?

This tells me that DRs Light World is more similar to our world where magic and fantasy is something you only experience in fiction. It’s not real. Or at least the people in Hometown don’t think it is. Have you actually heard them talk about magic in any shape or form? That isn’t ‘occult’ or ‘demon summoning’ because that yet again is a thing aligning to our world.

In Chapter 2 we have finally access to the second floor of the library. And it’s there where we finally are beginning to learn The Rules of this World. The first entry that we learn about is SOULs, but it is no new information. I have a hunch that with each chapter another bookshelf opens up and we learn more and more what is actually going on in this universe.

After all this is Book One. And might be foreshadowing on why Kris is ripping out their SOUL.

Another strange thing is the first bookshelf:

Kris’ reaction had me honestly disturbed. It might be just a joke but… Kris is the only human we see in Hometown. (It’s been always in the back of my mind.) But maybe there is more lore to this? I think even with love and care it would be hard to integrate into a full monster family with no humans around. You can witness this by Toriel saying how Kris asked when their ‘horns’ would grow, and how later they got fake horns for Kris…because Kris wanted to feel more like part of the family.

Toriel obviously tried her best. But does Kris feel uncomfortable about humans? Or being reminded that they are one? Because it alienates them from their family?

EDIT: [Monster History Part 6: Unfortunately, monsters are not experienced with illness. However, when monsters are about to expire of age, they lie down, immobile. We call this state "Fallen Down." A person who has Fallen Down will soon perish. In a way, this confusing situation was all too familiar.]

(After doing some digging, I remembered this was actually unused text – so, technically non-canon. It’s up to interpretation if monsters get ill or not in Undertale. In Deltarune they do. In the alarm clock dialogue we only learn from Asgore that Rudy “started looking older than him” and fell down, presumably from old age. No mention of an illness.)

5.Sans bleeds and Darkners know about blood, implying they bleed too

OK. Let’s skip this one for now because it will come up in my [Monster Biology] section later.

6.Sans has no HP bar and Darkners have no visible HP bar when struck

“Let me also present this tidbit that I see no one else talking about: unlike literally any monster in the underground (besides Flowey, but he doesn’t count), Sans HAS NO HP BAR. When he gets hit, the damage numbers are present, but the HP bar that should have appeared above him is absent. Darkners don’t have a visible HP bar when struck.” - (post)

This one is a huge stretch for me. The battle system in DR is obviously different in design.

And while I do understand the implication of Sans not having a ‘visible’ HP bar above his head because he came from the DR world… it does feel like cherry picking.

You know why I think Sans has no HP bar? Because it’s a scripted fight. And a design choice. Just like with Flowey when you hit him over and over again. It feels more like a ‘shock’, the HP bar doesn’t distract from what is happening. If anything I feel like Asgore’s HP bar should have been removed too but it does make sense that he has one because under normal circumstances you would fight him just like you did Undyne. I already made a stance on the whole 1HP Sans discussion in a previous post that you can check out in the author’s note I wrote in the beginning. Sans is just literally scripted to go down in one hit. Hence no need for a HP bar.

And you know what is funny? Here is how it looks when you fight a monster:

Here is how Darkners look (Chapter 1 & 2 respectively.):

Here is Sans:

It makes him yet again different. From other monsters and Darkners. He doesn’t have a HP bar portrayed at all. But Darkners do. Sans is the only one who is different when you select ‘Fight’.

And it think it is intentional. His dodging is meant to confuse the Player at first. The removal of his HP bar is supposed to make you unsure if attacking is the way to progress his fight. Kind of like how Toriel and Undyne have different requirements to their fights if you go Pacifist. (Yes, I never realized you were supposed to run away from Undyne and literally fought her to the death three times, dying to her, until I looked up a guide and face -palmed myself, ah, good memories)

But you do get hints (the frogs in the ruins for Toriel, Undyne explains it herself I just for some reason never took her words literally, and Sans’ check prompts you to just keep attacking)

7.Sans abilities and how similar they seems to Darkners + his doors that are ‘shortcuts’

This was what initially convinced me of this theory. Sans and Darkners do seem very alike. Especially when it comes to ‘shortcuts’. As Sans’ door design got copied and pasted all over the Dark World. There must be a connection, right? Lancer and Sans walk around in similar fashion. Staying ahead of you despite the player passing them in the last screen. Darkners having colored talking sprites are in favor of Sans being a Darkner too as he conveniently is a skeleton – so you wouldn’t be able to tell. (Even if that one is just a coincidence.)

And then we have ‘manipulation’ of shadows. (Okay, not gonna lie at first glance this really seemed promising, and it was a really cool idea but—)

Here is all the times shadows are ‘manipulated’ in UT:

Here is all the times it happens in DR:

So far the only character that I’m convinced can ‘manipulate’ shadows is Ralsei, because taking off your hat and looking like a totally different person is a bit sus…

In every other instance the characters being ‘shadowed’ is just a plot device, so you don’t find out too soon who is following you or to make other characters look more menacing. It’s just to make things dramatic/atmospheric… How do you differentiate between the first meeting with Sans and the judgement sequence where both characters are shadowed?

And in Chapter one, when you first enter the Dark World you can see Susie’s shadow. How did she manage to ‘manipulate’ shadows if we are saying this is apparently some type of magic that Sans and Darkners (and by extension lightners/monsters) are able to do? Heck, Susie needs to be taught healing magic by Ralsei first to even know how to do it and even then…her aptitude is…well, she tries her best at least…

I don’t doubt there is some type of magic (like Ralsei’s) where the user can ‘cloak’ themselves, it would be quite fitting for the ‘Dark World’. But I don’t think every Darkner can do it. As they all have their own themes and attack patterns reflecting from where their fountain was created in the Light World – Cyber World makes this even more obvious…

I don’t think a virus or a corrupted program would have that kind of magic just because they are Darkners.

And then we have these guys…that I’ve seen some other people mention:

But I disregard them. Because it’s just a joke Toby pulled because he never gave Knight Knight and co. (the CORE enemies) an overworld sprite lol.

8.The Sans doesn’t die theory and how Darkner don’t die but ‘flee’ in battle

“I’d like to point out that the EXP you gain from the battle does not confirm Sans’s death. If you pick on Loox, you can get 5 extra EXP stacking up to 3 times. This means that killing an enemy is not required for you to gain EXP. I’ll also include that the kill counter doesn’t go up once Sans’s battle is over. It’s believed that this is the case because of Chara’s interference, though I don’t personally agree.” - (post)

Okay, let’s go in the nitty-gritty of definitions then:

Definition of [execution] from wordhippo:

The act, manner or style of executing (actions, maneuvers, performances).

The state of being executed (accomplished).

The act of putting to death or being put to death as a penalty, or actions so associated.

Now what could Execution Points mean in the context of Level of Violence?

[The act of putting to death or being put to death.]

It does not mean to execute an action. You don’t get EXP by picking on Loox and then sparing him. The argument that killing is not required falls apart. You gain EXP by killing. By executing.

The EXP you gain from Sans battle does confirm his death. And yes, the more in a violent manner you do – tormenting others before their demise – the more EXP you gain.

If for every little action of being a slight dick to Loox or other monsters you would gain EXP then at the end of a Jerk Pacifist Run you are full-fledged monster and abomination. It just doesn’t make sense. This argument kills itself. (Unintentional pun here).

You have to kill. If you even skipped one monster in Genocide then your run was ruined. You would need to start again. It’s about resolve. Wouldn’t a warning pop up? Like [Strongly felt one left, shouldn’t proceed]. If Sans managed to escape? I wouldn’t be surprised if there was a command to chase him down and end him if that was the case. And Sans dialogue makes less sense when he calls you a ‘freak’ – it implies that you enjoy killing him. Why else would you be so ‘happy’ about it? Because you bested him.

I cannot scream this louder but the judgement sequence confirms this. The game confirms it itself. You want canon dialog? Here!

When you kill someone, your EXP increases.

You killed Sans.

The only reason I can think of why Sans doesn’t go up in your kill count is because he dies off-screen. Or maybe because of the nature of his fight Toby forgot to make it count? Since technically it was more like a scripted event (even though you still gain EXP and stats).

You could even theorize that Sans is the one who counts. And when the one who counts isn’t around anymore, well…

(Yes, you could question how does he know about the Ruin kills? But Sans quite literally can just look up your LV as if he can access your info panel. He can see it if you are guilty of something. Killing one monster already ‘marks’ you. It is fitting for a Judge. And he makes comments in the Neutral Endings if you ever SAVEed, used food items or changed the gross bandage you were wearing in the beginning (or even the Hacker Ending where he calls you out on manipulating the game). He keeps of more track than you give him credit for, despite saying in one of his judgements that he ‘wasn’t watching’.

Plus, when you die he counts your deaths up to a certain point too. Until it gets too muddy for him to differentiate your expressions anymore and he asks you to count for him.)

I don’t know about you, but I love this theory. And I feel it’s a cool explanation on why counting doesn’t matter anymore. You killed the guy that did.

(The only other explanation I can come up with is that, at this point, it lost its importance. You already came this far. You’ve proved your resolve, not sparing anyone. What point is there to keep count on how many people’s lives you’ve ruined when you’re going to erase it all in a matter of seconds in the next room? Don’t at some point numbers just lose their meaning when they rise too high? Maybe you don’t even feel like you killed someone because you are so distanced from reality that the pain you inflict on others has no meaning and their death even less. But you know exactly what you did. The crueler the intention the more damage the monster receives. Remember this line? “If a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill…” You want them dead. You do not deal so much damage for no reason

Truthfully, it’s a mystery why Sans doesn’t go up in your Kill Count. You killed him. There is no denying that. You’ve gained the EXP. You executed someone. The realistic scenario is… It’s more than likely just an oversight.)

Now, to the ‘Darkners-don’t-die-but-flee’ part…that has changed in Chapter 2, hasn’t it? We will come back to this point a bit later, but yes, in your normal battles whenever you deal enough damage to a Darkner they either run away or get knocked off the battle screen. So it’s impossible for out three heroes to actually ‘kill’ anyone. More on that later.

9.Darkners can dodge and so can Sans

Though people kind of neglect the fact that Darkners are only able to do it when they have the [warned] status because you told the enemy about the incoming attack. And the dodging-mechanic comes only in the beginning of the game into play because of Susie.

Sans dodges without any input.

(Sans goes against a lot of the game’s rules – dodging, keeping his turn, having attacks hit you when it is your turn in the menu, lying about sparing you, removal of invincibility frames, the ‘poison effect’ of his attacks, manipulation of time in his attacks/cutting them of, starting them early, and jumping back and forth between them etc etc. …)

So, is dodging something only Sans can do? Because he goes against the script?

Or can other monsters do it too? But they don’t? That statement could have a lot of implications.

I’ve pondered the question before on why Sans in lore-terms is the only one who seems to be able to do so in Undertale. There are some interesting scenarios:

What if monster don’t dodge your attacks out of courtesy and compassion? Because they know you are defending yourself? (Disregarding monsters like Moldsmals and others who just might not be able to but monsters like Undyne, Papyrus, and Canine Unit totally should be able – what’s holding them back? A monster-honor-code? Some guide-book on confrontations? Are they really limited to their script?)

Sans’, ‘what? you think i'm just gonna stand there and take it?’ opens so many questions.

An interesting what-if, no? Another thing to note is that: It’s not only Sans who calls the game’s rules out or reminds you that you are playing a game. Various other character do it too, explaining game mechanics: Froggits in the Ruins, Toriel in the dummy tutorial, Papyrus and Undyne in their fights…

And if we are technical about it, we have two other cases where we experience ‘dodging’, though those two examples are a bit more ‘murky’. We have:

-Asriel in his fight (Any attack will result in a miss, but considering that Asriel is akin to a god in this fight…it’s no surprise he would be able to.)

-Amalgamates (Rather than ‘dodging’, any attack gets ‘absorbed’.)

EDIT: (We also have Undyne mentioning how in her training with Asgore she couldn’t land a single blow on him).

10.How Papyrus fits into this theory

Like with many other theories and headcanons Papyrus gets put most of the time in a very ambiguous spot. Kind of a given when you are the most mysterious character in the game (yes, more mysterious than even Gaster).

The solution?

“Going back to Papyrus, if Sans is a Darkner, then it’s important to mention that Papyrus is not. We see Papyrus turn to dust when he is killed. For that reason, it seems that Sans and Papyrus are not biological brothers. I think this actually makes a lot of sense given how different they look. Yes, it’s true that Sans and Papyrus both have a skeleton motif, but they don’t look remotely similar. The face shape, the jaw, the build, the height, the eyes, the nasal cavity—nothing matches! Each monster species look the same, hell, even boss monsters like Toriel and Asgore resemble each other. Compared to Papyrus, Sans seems a lot more solid (his gut) AND he’s almost completely covered up save for his face (what are you hiding under there?).” - (post)

Make them not related! I don’t know why but this is a recurring pattern I’ve seen in many places (Handplates AU, being experiments/creations, being pieces of Gaster, being the two halves of Gaster etc. etc.)

(Not bashing any AU’s or stories here, they’re cool.) But poor Sans can’t even be snarky and call his bro ‘my friend’ without people freaking out, thinking the apocalypse is near.

I…for some reason, a part of the fandom is quite determined to question their relation and separate them. Aside for that it makes a cool story, here’s why it’s a weak argument in my book to deny their siblinghood (especially based on appearances):

It is true that monsters of the same species don’t necessarily share family ties.

But the argument here is they ‘look different’. An application of human logic.

And if we apply our human logic again then…

Do you know there are families that don’t look like each other at all? Children that don’t look like their parents. Siblings that if you put them in the same room you wouldn’t know if they were related? In those real-life cases sometimes the parents and children then question their legitimacy… Becky might not look like her dark-haired mom and dad but that’s because she earned her bright hair from her grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand-grand… okay, you get it.

As we don’t know the skeleton brother’s parents…we don’t know from where they got their looks from. Maybe Papyrus resembles PARENT A heavily, while Sans got his looks from PARENT B – and that’s why comparably they are different.

And this is, again, the application of human logic. Human genes. Or in this case I guess monster genes??

Plus, their looks and personalities are quite literally a trope: Sibling Yin-Yang

(Hot and cold, short and tall, loud and quiet, spirited and lazy…)

Is Luigi not Mario’s brother now because they have a different head shape to contrast each other?

Because that’s the argument we are working against here. And this sibling yin-yang is something you’ve seen in many places of media. It’s just interesting and good design.

Also while we are on this topic, here is what both pair of brothers have in common (for fun):

(taken from here)

-Mario is more levelheaded and serious, while Luigi is the quirky, cowardly sidekick who's often the butt of the jokes (while Papyrus isn’t really ‘cowardly’ the rest fits the vibe)

- Mario tends to have higher attack power and speed but suffers from lower health points and defense points, which are Luigi's strong areas.

- Luigi tends to have higher defense and health points at the cost of some attack and speed, which are Mario's strong areas.

- The younger Mario Brother, Luigi suffers from something of an underwhelming reputation — most characters in the first game cannot even be bothered to remember his name. (reminds you of something, no?)

Being the taller and younger brother sure is a popular trope…

Now, in the game both of them repeatedly call each other ‘brother’. The Snowdin Shop Keep says this: ‘And if you're bored, you can sit outside and watch those wacky skeletons do their thing. There's two of 'em… Brothers, I think.’

Toriel also says something along the lines of: Oh, is this your brother? Papyrus? I have heard a lot about you!

There is nothing to indicate that they aren’t biological siblings. The most concrete evidence you can get is from Toby’s twitter where he shows what he intended with these characters:

The genesis of Papyrus

Obviously, this means the two of them were to have ties with each other and a [REDACTED].

11.Darkners have no purpose without Lightners

“If it turns out that not all monsters are Lightners, then it makes sense that Sans is so devoted to Papyrus, assuming that Papyrus is, in fact, a Lightner. No other person’s death makes as much of a difference as Papyrus’s concerning Sans’s behavior towards you. Alternatively, if Papyrus is not a Lightner, then it stands to reason why Sans is so depressed—he has no way of fulfilling his purpose.” - (post)

I don’t really have anything to say about this one. I just wanted to mention it because I think it is a neat idea, and also woah, really dark. This really messed with my head the first time I read it. And the explanation is just really cool?? But also highly depressing??

Darkners having no purpose without Lightners was one of the more interesting bits of lore that Ralsei gave us.

And I wonder if there is more to it? A reason why Darkners feel like this? And it’s not only Ralsei who feels this kind of ‘devotion’.

The King while fighting us also talks about it.

And oddly, while casting Lightners aside the King is very loyal to his Knight…

And though these words “to stop fighting” were mere moments later revealed to be an act – I think some of the King’s feelings were not a lie. Some of it might’ve been how he used to feel at least.

And perhaps the behavior of the Queen towards Noelle is part of it. Wanting to assist Noelle. Especially, the lines in the weird route are interesting: “Noelle must rest, she has already awakened too much” and “My one idea to help Noelle failed”

The Queen wants Noelle to “Stab the earth… Creating our new supreme empire”. Knowing that it would make Noelle ‘happy’.

But the Queen is just a computer, “Perhaps my computation were miscalibrated.”

She does not realizes that the ‘searches’ do not reflect what a person truly wants, just like a computer she could only do the best she could with the data that was available to her.

So when Queen realizes this she instead says, “Disregard me and with your own power choose the world that makes you happy.”

Until we learn that there is actually a vital reason for not creating more darkness… The Roaring. (Also notice how magic is mentioned again? As something otherwordly?)

And Queen then brings us this beautiful line, just further proving the point that she had not the full picture in mind,

Considering the Queen didn’t know, the King must have not known either – or he wouldn’t say that Darkners would rule the world…when in truth an awful fate would await them. The Knight might’ve mislead the King…on purpose.

12.The ultimate reason this theory falls apart: Presenting the glaring hole

My dear readers…if you’ve made it this far. Let me ask you one question.

All I need is one answer.

Here it goes…

If Sans is a Darkner…

THEN HOW THE HECK (HELL) IS HE ABLE TO WALK IN THE LIGHT WORLD.

WHY HAVE I NOT SEEN ANYONE QUESTION THIS.

Chapter 2, we see that Darkners are able to become items in your inventory.

We already kind of had this with Jevil (and now Spamton too). Anyway, when you take Lancer with you, Susie wonders where he went.

Darkners become real objects in the Light World that represent their form in the Dark World. Lancer and Rouxls Kaard become cards. The horsie npc, Mr. Society, and Ponman are chess pieces. Shawn is a plush doll.

If Sans is a Darkner, we wouldn’t be able to see him. At the end of Chapter 2, Susie even talks how she wants Lancer and Ralsei to be able to come to their world.

Darkners can’t physically be in the Light World.

Sans is a Lightner.

Yes, I know it’s disappointing. I believed into this theory too. I wanted too. But it doesn’t work.

Now, this doesn’t fully remove Sans’ connection with Darkners… Don’t worry, we still have the ‘shortcuts’. Though we don’t know if Sans uses them in this reality but it is one thing that links him back to maybe a possible history? Who knows? Right now Sans is still your average dude in DR. And it’s up to Toby to make him relevant or not to the story. I wouldn’t be mad if Sans just stayed…well, Sans. He doesn’t have any reason right now to play a major role in the cast – this isn’t the Underground. I kind of want Papyrus to take the limelight…but that’s only because I’m desperate for Papyrus-lore, and every day I go back to this masterpost, I feel myself slipping further into insanity.

[Monster Biology, Monster Food, and Bathrooms – the dilemma of that ‘ketchup’]

When it comes to Sans ‘bleeding’ in his death cut-scene, we do have:

1.The “realistic” approach: In which bone marrow explains the production of blood cells and why Sans was able to bleed.

2.The “it was not real” approach: In which it was not blood but ketchup, and Sans wasn’t actually bleeding.

Which one is more accurate?

If we go with approach two:

The whole ketchup joke comes once again back with Noelle referencing it.

Would Sans carry ketchup underneath his clothes for a joke? In this kind of serious situation? Well, Sans has no problem mocking you, telling you how you “suck at being evil” when you don’t go for an all-out genocide. His comments at every turn are either to piss you off (counting your deaths) or to make you feel guilty (friendship it’s really great, right?).

Monsters know humans are “mostly made out of water”. They have a book about it. And Sans is one of the monsters that can tell at a glance that you’re a human. Considering this knowledge and how smart Sans is: Sans must know about blood. So, wouldn’t it be really smart to ‘mimic’ a human’s death? Maybe seeing blood will give you pause? Maybe turning to dust was not relatable enough? So, why not make his death as shocking of a display as he can? Are you desensitized from the sight of blood?

If we go with approach one:

Then we need to take a look back at monster biology. And the possibility of some monsters maybe having blood. One thing that is odd with Sans’ death cut-scene is how it looks like he is coughing up the ‘blood’ as it begins to pour down from his grin. Either this is really great acting or it just isn’t simply ketchup. (Plus, I’m really questioning how he managed to do that if it’s ketchup, but maybe I shouldn’t question magical skeletons that can sweat and are able to feel their legs get tired without any nerves, and then again, maybe, I should stop looking at them as ‘skeletons’ and instead view them as ‘monsters’.)

(Papyrus is again the odd one out here. We don’t see any blood in his fight. But we can still argue it’s because we severed his head clean off from his body. (In fact, it’s amazing how much endurance he has by being able to survive as a head for a couple seconds. No other monster does this.))

Here is what information Undertale provides us:

[While monsters are mostly made of magic, human beings are mostly made of water.]

An important indicator is ‘mostly’. As I feel like it gets often forgotten that monsters do have physical matter. They are not completely made out of magic. Alphys even says so.

[You see, unlike humans', monsters' bodies don't have enough... Physical matter to take those concentrations of "determination." Their bodies started to melt, and lost what physicality they had.]

The physical matter that gets left behind when a monster dies is their dust.

Undyne mentions, in a phone call, motion-sickness and how she had to hurl when she rode on a conveyor belt. She is also able to get a ‘heatstroke’. Monsters can sweat.

(And Papyrus isn’t even surprised, he is the one that asks the question. Maybe he’s seen Undyne do it before – but if not, does that mean Papyrus is also able to feel ‘sick’ too? Like when he states he ‘can’t feel his legs’ when you make him walk to the kitchen countless times. Implying he could before? Or was that a skeleton joke because they have no nerves? But then again, he gets electrocuted in the electric maze and gets mad, having probably felt the pain. And when Flowey holds him in a vine chokehold, he looks troubled too. This is where I differentiate between simply ‘skeletons’ and ‘skeleton monsters’ that clearly are able to feel certain things such as pain or discomfort.)

Toriel fatal sprite has what looks like some liquid coming out of her mouth? Might not mean much, might just be chunks falling off from her face, and in her next sprite (kneeling down) it’s gone again, so they didn’t make another separate sprite with that part missing…but I found it always a bit weird…

Monsters having blood or a liquid similar to blood must be a very, very rare trait, because it still gets linked back to humans.

(However, this sentence still makes sense with humans having a larger quantity of blood; so maybe having a bit of ‘blood/liquid’ and being made out of blood is different? Especially, if we go with the assumption that it’s an extremely rare trait and monsters probably don’t have as much with their lesser physical matter.

It’s a bit of a confusing question, honestly. Why does the monster kid associate blood with pain? Do they have something similar? So, they question if being made out of more than half of it makes it painful to live? Would be an admittedly funny misunderstanding.)

There are also big implications that Darkners do indeed bleed too.

I’m not really a fan of these two dialogues as they are a bit too ambiguous for my liking:

They both could point to monsters and Darkners just knowing the concept of blood. And nothing more. But here is where it gets interesting…

We have this (the best evidence probably):

(Hurts, doesn’t it?)

And if you look at the flavor text…(it is actually made out of blood.)

Mmm, blood! [When using it on Susie]

Aah, sticky... [When using it on Ralsei]

Mmm... what!? It's blood!? [When using it on Noelle]

(Ralsei’s reaction is…kinda really tame?? Is he used to eating blood?! Also Susie, what the heck? Though I usually dismiss her taste palate considering she eats chalk…and because both Susie and Kris like to eat moss… But apparently the blood donut tastes good?? Because Noelle seems to enjoy it until she realizes it’s blood??)

We also have the King say this:

In Chapter 2 it’s revealed to be just a bluff because we learn from King Spades that Lancer is a “bouncy little pumpkin” and that he wouldn’t ‘splatter’ but just bounce off (implying that the King has done this before). But this sentence could also mean that if Lancer wasn’t ‘bouncy’ or if any other Darkner was in this position that they would indeed ‘splatter’ to the ground.

Additionally, there is Noelle the only character in the game right now (that has a fatal spell) that can kill Darkners. And what is really fascinating about that is: we can see what a Darkner’s death animation looks like [on normal enemies].

They turn red.

Before they vanish UT style.

This color could mean anything or nothing. It doesn’t confirm our suspicions outright…but the possibility…and that it is a very peculiar detail to note…are still present.

(I’m kind of already on the train that supports this notion. The blood donut is very sus.)

[Monster Food – If it goes in…where does it go out?]

Remember how I said, we only have one example of a monster (Asgore) getting sick? Actually…

We have this getting mentioned twice. Once in DR and another time in the UT alarm clock app dialogue where Alphys mentions Catty ate her oranges, underneath her “heater”, and needed her stomach pumped. So, even in this world Doggo probably won’t know the beauty of a chocolate treat…

Anyway, monsters have stomachs, meaning monster poo is no more an illusion.

Yes, you heard me this was my plan all along: Convincing you that monster poo is real. (I’m kidding)

We learn thanks to BigMouth’s words that monster food gets conserved perfectly into energy.

It makes sense that monsters like Papyrus who probably only eat monster food would not know what a toilet is or what its usage is.

However, monsters know about bathrooms and even use them…to well, wash up.

And although I have seen people dismiss and say that Alphys was lying about going to the bathroom because we see her go in the elevator that we later learn leads down to the True Lab. There is a bathtub down there. Thought I’m unsure if she uses that one.

I do think she actually has a private bathroom for herself on another floor that we just couldn’t access.

The elevator has multiple buttons.

And when you enter the elevator for the first time, the elevator loses its power, landing on what probably is the last floor. The True Lab.

Alphys loves human anime history and “culture”, it would make sense that at some point she wanted to try human cuisine too. What are the chances she has a toilet in her bathroom engineered by herself because she wanted to try human food?

I mean she has instant noodles in her refrigerator. Is it magical instant ramen or human instant ramen? It is interesting because we have mundane items like soda, potato chisps, chocolate, (I don’t count hot dogs because their description clearly tells us they’re not really “hot dogs”) etc. mentioned that are unclear if they are a monster food variant or human food. Then we have Papyrus’ spaghetti, his lasagna that he doesn’t cook anymore, Sans’ quiche pie, the pie Toriel baked… Especially, the first two are known dishes from the human kitchen – but clearly here it must be a monster food variant.

(Cinnamon Bunny, Crab Apple, Sea Tea, Monster Candy, Spider Donut…they all have an element of ‘fantasy’ in their name or description, and are sold by vendors…making them easily distinguishable as monster food).

(This is not the only time we find “human (inspired) food”.) The items in the garbage dump are human food not monster food.

This also kind of bursts the headcanon that monster food heals you because it is magical??

The astronaut food also heals your HP? (Monster live underground, some not knowing what even a star is. So, how would they know what an “astronaut” is? It makes sense that you would recognize it and name the item accordingly). Plus, if it’s human food, it’s reasonable why no one touched the cooler.

Other pointers that counter this headcanon are:

The bandage becomes a healing item when you swap it for another armor. Please don’t tell me Frisk took a bite out of that…that’s gross.

Not only do food (of any kind) and first aid items heal you…

Sleeping does too. In the inn you can heal above your max HP.

At the end of the game you have this item in your inventory:

It makes sense a dream would heal you if sleep does. Anything that can give you strength/energy would be able to do so. [Determination/SAVE points].

Also, can I just say that temmie flakes isn’t even food?? It’s construction paper!! And it somehow heals – albeit for measly 2 HP, makes sense…you’re not supposed to eat paper after all…

So, in conclusion there are monsters that have stomachs. Monsters that can sweat (which includes skeleton monsters?). Monsters that have a brain or heart as an organ?? (But hearts could be symbolically for souls also??)I mean if they have a stomach…that’s an organ??? So, other organs are a possibility?

Also what did Undyne vomit when she got sick? It couldn’t be food. Magical residue? Acids? The last one would actually explain that some monster do have some ‘liquids’ (not necessarily blood).

That’s as close as we get really with explaining that Sans was ‘bleeding’. (Or leaving liquids of some kind. I mean, Papyrus says Sans emits slime, it’s what brothers do, so, okay no bye—)

Both are speculations, so take whatever approach you deem as more ‘accurate’.

And I think this is where I will cut this short… I had wanted to go over some other points (more Deltarune-world related stuff) but I think that would be better for another separate post.

So, yeah… hope this was insightful and a refresher on UT lore. Especially, the ‘monster food is magic that’s why it heals you portion’ that one actually gave me whiplash myself…because I realized…that’s fanon… (_ _ ;)

I would love to hear what you think. Everyone has their own interpretation and opinion on these. So, if you agree or disagree – I would love to read why!

Thank you for reading!

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