#(``) jon snow . rel. eddard stark

[sigilsongs-a]

(``) muse tags. ASHARA

(``) ashara dayne . (tag)

[s0urw00lf]

Bound

“Lion” and the wolf

Jon snow x reader

Summary: you meet Jon snow and immediately take a liking to him

A/N: may be a series may not be i don’t know yet. I hope it is because I’m hyperfixated on game of thrones right now and there’s only 10 episodes per season. Also is it just me who finds season 1 Jon just adorable?

Divider from @thecutestgrotto

When your father informed you that the king, the queen, and their close relatives including you were to accompany him to winterfell to name lord Stark as his new hand after Jon Arryns passing your first initial reaction was shock, they’d never really considered you a part of their family. Cersei was all about blood relation unless married into the family and you were neither. Therefore casting you to the furthest end of the Lannister/Baratheon family tree. The only ones that really accepted you was your father, Jamie and tommen. Joffrey was way too cruel for his own good, there was no doubt in your mind that it is going to be the reason he ends up dead.

”Must I go father, you and I both know me and Cersei around one another for any extended amount of time is not good for anyone within mere miles of us.” You asked, looking at him through the mirror in your room as your handmaiden braided your hair.

”Yes you must, the king has ordered it” he replied in his usual nonchalant tone. You rolled your eyes “when are we to set off?” You asked.

“By sunrise” he replied “I’ll leave you to sleep you’re going to need it”

your father exited your chambers and soon your handmaiden helped you get settled into your nightwear.

Sleep had not come easy to you. The thought of being in a compressed space with Cersei and Joffrey you’d go as far as to say it gave you nightmares. You are a well behaved lady, you know when and when not to speak and how to butter anyone up. But when it came to the queen and her eldest son you always managed to be sent off with the threat of your head on a spike.

Most of the ride to winterfell was spent bickering with Joeffry, somehow the young prince hadn’t learned how to respect anyone outside of himself, it got so bad that you’d ended up calling him an arrogant bastard which resulted in a slap from Cersei and you riding in the back with your uncle Jamie. Only when you were outside of the walls built around winterfell did you place yourself inside the carriage so you could present yourself as the “perfect family”.

You were introduced to the Stark family after your cousins, you’d heard stories of the bastard boy of Eddard Stark who looked more like a Stark than the eldest Stark boy. He was attractive, Robb. Any woman with eyes could see that, his striking blue eyes stood out against his dark curly hair and pale face. But as you searched more carefully you couldn’t find the other eldest boy. Next to Robb stood Lady Sansa who you knew was the eldest girl but there was one missing between them.

You tapped your uncles shoulder discreetly, he hummed without taking his eyes from in front of him. “There’s a boy missing, the second eldest. Why is he not in lineup with his family?” You questioned silently, watching the king and his old friend reunite, knowing their loud voices would drown out you and your fathers whispers. “Lady Catelyn is not fond of the bastard boy, he's seen as a burden to her. Look beyond the lineup” he answered just as quietly. You frowned at that, you knew what it was like not to be wanted by your family. Blood or not, but your father always made sure you were known as his daughter proudly. He wouldn’t ever dare to hide you no matter how high or low born your guests were. How can you hate a child before he even does anything to deserve your hate?

You took your uncles advice looking beyond the line up, and that’s when you saw him, what they say about him is right, he does look more of a Stark than Robb. He was handsome both brothers were but Jon carried himself differently. Like he was waiting to be seen, accepted. His dark eyes met yours and your heart skipped a beat, he looked to be observing you much like you were doing him. Your long held eye contact must’ve been caught by your uncle who light nudged you. “Careful little lioness” he warned. With that you broke your eye contact with him to look at your uncle. You weren’t sure what he meant but you knew it’d resurface later on.

Cersei greeted the lord and lady after the king, though it wasn’t as warm as his, Cersei had a way of making every moment more tense than it had to be. “Where’s the imp?” The youngest Stark girl said catching you and Cersei’s attention, she turned around and walked toward you and your uncle “where is our brother, go find the little monster” she said to your uncle. You suppressed an eye roll, though your father was your father he still felt to revel in his younger years, though you weren’t sure how he was able to slip passed everyone and escape to whatever it was he was doing.

Later that evening at the feast you were sat alone, much like always unless your father was near. You made effort to search for Jon, and was quickly dissatisfied when he was nowhere in your sights. A loud shriek broke you from your thoughts “Arya! It’s not funny she always does this” you looked over and almost snorted when you saw lady Sansa with food on her face. Your best guess was Arya decided to use her face as target practice.

You weren’t blind to the looks she and your cousin had been sending each other and you guessed the little Stark was feeling mischievous. You caught sight of the oldest Stark boy cutting his laugh short due to the look his mother gave him, he got up walking over to Arya picking her up from her seat and muttering “time for bed” he met eyes with you and sent you a friendly smile, you returned his smile with nod in acknowledgement.

Farther into the night you found yourself wandering around the castle after dinner and ended up on the training grounds. A low grunt caught your attention, you were sure everyone was readying themselves for dinner who would be at the training grounds this late. It was a boy. “So its you” you spoke, catching his attention, he paused his actions turning towards you with a confused expression before he straightened himself up, “My lady are you lost, i can esc-“ you shook your head “i am not lost lord snow-“ ”excuse me My lady, i am not a lord” he put his head down.

You tilted your head at him “you are more of a lord than i am a lady” you told him truthfully. He stared at you in silence, you looked around not noting anyone else “you are alone?” You questioned. He nodded “yes My lady.” He answered. “Would you mind accompanying me, My Lord?” You tilted your head at him giving him the slightest doe eyes. He hadn’t given you a reaction you expected but you did see the blush littering his cheeks. “Of course My lady, where are you off to?”

”I'm just out for a night stroll, it's good I found you, from what I’ve heard you're handy with a sword so I needn’t be on high guard anymore” you told him as you resumed walking. He followed right next to you “do you not have a guard” he questioned looking around to see if there were any men far behind “much to the dismay of my father, no. I can take care of myself but I don't always like to.” You said moving your cloak to the side to show the sword you have stashed.

He looked intrigued by it. “It was my grandfathers i think, my father gave it to me. He said it was the last he could find of my real family.” You frowned. “You're from a high born family, that sword is made of valyrian steel” he said pointing to your sword that was back safely hidden behind your coat. “I am not sure, father won't tell me where he found it, he says he’ll tell me when i'm ready. Anyway enough of me, what about you” you asked looking up at him. “What of me?” He asked. “Do you know your mother?”.

He shook his head “even if i did im not so sure it’d change anything” he said frowning, you hated the crease between his brows. His face showed years of neglect and hatred he endeared and you couldn’t help but to begin to hate it for him. Suddenly you felt no need to continue talking of family, you noticed he didn’t have his furs from earlier that day on anymore. “Are you cold My Lord?” You asked gently. It was as if he had just realized he didn’t have his furs as he looked down at his attire. “We can go to my chambers and warm you, its not very far from here.” You told him.

Jon blushed at the thought “no i shouldn’t it wouldn’t be appropriate, but if you would like me to escort you-” you giggled cutting his sentence short “very noble Lord snow, yes please escort me to my chambers” you smiled, Jon nodded placing a hand on your lower back leading you further into the castle. The short walk was filled with quiet and easy conversation.

You were almost disappointed when you reached your chambers and your conversation was cut short. “Would you like to come in?” You asked, Jon paused wanting to say yes but not wanting to upset lady Caitlyn if she ever found out. “I wouldn’t be able to sleep at night knowing i sent you off while your nearly freezing” you tried to persuade him. He shook his head “it would not be appropriate“ “Jon please” you begged “just a few minutes”.

Jon sighed praying to the gods hoping no one saw what he was about to do. He entered your chambers and let out a breath at the warmth. The atmosphere in the room was quiet and gentle. You removed your furs having no further need for them at the moment and placed yourself on your bed. “May i ask a question?” You asked him softly. He broke his stare from the fire and turned to you with a gentle ‘hmm’ “If you feel you do not belong here, then where do you belong?”

Jon felt weird, having never been asked that question before he felt taken aback. He lulled over his answer for a few seconds “at the wall, with my uncle and others like me” he looked down to his clasped hands, seemingly deep in thought. Your heart broke for the boy, he truly felt in some way he wasn’t welcome in his own home. “Are you ready to make that sacrifice? To never have a wife, a family. To pledge your life?” You asked.

He frowned further “No woman will wed to a bastard. My life will have more meaning there than here” He said. You tilted your head “i don't think that to be true, i think some time sooner or later your family will need you here, and if any woman is daft enough not to accept a marriage proposal from you then she didn't deserve you in the first place.”

After that Jon excused himself from your chambers, your words weighing heavy on his shoulders. But his mind was already set, he was joining the night's watch, however that didn’t stop him from repeating your words in his head.

The next morning was when you were finally able to find your father, extremely hungover. “I Missed you yesterday” you said as you came to a halt by his side. “You missed aunt Cersei's fake smiles, uncle Jamie sizing up with lord stark and even worse. Joffrey making eyes with the stark girl.” You rolled your eyes at the last bit. Your father cleared his throat “did i also miss your night stroll with the bastard boy?” He asked.

You froze momentarily, you knew your father wasn’t in a hurry to wed you off, he’d much rather you find love than be in a loveless situation with a man two times your age. But that never stopped him from teasing you about your interests even if its very rare that you have them. “He was just accompanying me to my chambers, father” you spoke looking in every direction but his. He was the only person in the world who could read you like a book. “Ah yes, was he also warming your bed for you?” He turned toward you with a small smile. “You know i would never, i just met the boy”

“love is a fast little creature daughter” he said before walking away.

[goodqueenaly]

Hello again! Sorry I’m trying to figure out how to make this a question, but if you’re willing to, I’d love to hear any thoughts you have about Myranda Royce? I feel like she’s interesting as a counterpoint to the general depiction of the Vale nobility—it struck me that her open association with “Alayne Stone” could be considered unusual by her contemporaries. Do you think it’s genuine, or being gracious (or both)? Thanks and I hope you are well!

I think Myranda is quite an interesting character! (Long, more under the cut)

On the one hand, Myranda certainly wants to encourage Sansa-as-Alayne to see her as a friend. Throughout their conversation, Myranda asks, indeed demands that Sansa-as-Alayne refer to her as “Randa”, an informal nickname which bridges the class distinction between them (more on that in a bit). Myranda’s genial, self-identified “wicked” gossip, punctuated with laughs and jokes, directly recalls Sansa’s last true experience of female friendship, way back in AGOT - sharing a strawberry pie with Jeyne Poole, “giggling and gossiping and sharing secrets”. Too, as they near the Gates of the Moon, Myranda tells Sansa-as-Alayne of the apartments readied for her but offers to share her own bed with Sansa-as-Alayne, much in the manner of Margaery’s bedsharing with her close-knit cousins. Nor is this proffered friendship an entirely empty hope on the part of Myranda. By TWOW, Sansa is internally referring to Myranda as “her friend”, and when Myranda cheerfully dares Sansa to race the gatehouse by declaring “[l]ast one to the gate must marry Uther Shett”, Sansa laughs and joyfully thinks that “[f]or just a little while … [Sansa] found herself remembering bright cold days at Winterfell, when she would race through Winterfell with her friend Jeyne Poole, with Arya running after them trying to keep up”. Myranda does provide Sansa-as-Alayne, at least eventually, some access to friendship and fun Sansa has not experienced in a very long, very traumatic time; finally, after months turning to years of loneliness, abuse, and fear, Sansa has a young aristocratic woman of an age with her, with whom she can be happy - in fact, feeling “alive again, for the first since her father… [sic] since Lord Eddard Stark had died”.

Yet Sansa cannot embrace Myranda Royce as her friend without complication, given the context in which she is introduced to Myranda. Before Sansa and Myranda Royce ever meet, Littlefinger warns Sansa that she, Sansa, must “be careful” and “[g]uard [her] tongue around [Myranda]”, because while Myranda “likes to play the merry fool … underneath she’s shrewder than her father”. That Sansa takes this warning to heart is reflected in Sansa-as-Alayne’s greeting to Myranda, allowing Myranda to call her “Alayne” but internally adding “you’ll get no secrets from me”.  Indeed, Myranda’s frank conversation, complete with blunt questions, seems to parallel Olenna Tyrell’s similarly staged interview of Sansa at the start of ASOS; just as the shrewd Queen of Thorns weaponized an attitude of uncourtly candor to make Sansa comfortable enough to admit to Joffrey’s monstrousness, so Myranda seems to want to draw information out of Sansa-as-Alayne, particularly to her true identity, by peppering their chat with candid sexual references and choice bits of gossip. To that end, Myranda does appear to succeed: when Myranda seemingly offhand mentions that “the Night’s Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark’s”, Sansa-as-Alayne blurts the name “Jon Snow” - an improbable bit of identification for supposedly the bastard daughter of a minor Vale lord, allegedly living in Gulltown with the Faith until relatively recently. (Whether Myranda then later remarks on Sansa-as-Alayne’s “rosy cheeks and big blue eyes” to make a coy reference to the true Sansa’s Tully appearance, or later still tells Sansa-as-Alayne that “[t]he first Lady Waynwood must have been a mare” as a sly allusion to the Waynwood marriage Catelyn says was made by one of Jocelyn Stark’s Royce daughters, are both open, intriguing possibilities.) In the ongoing theme of truth versus lies so central to Sansa’s storyline, Myranda’s search for knowledge is used by Littlefinger to portray her as an antagonist; falsehood and secrecy, literally defining Sansa for the moment in the guise of “Alayne Stone” must perforce divide Sansa from her would-be friend, at least according to Littlefinger. 

Yet Myranda does not simply represent the duality of friendship and animosity for Sansa-as-Alayne. For all her risqué jokes and targeted requests for information, there is I think a good heart to Myranda, most clearly demonstrated in her treatment of Robert Arryn. Before we even meet Myranda on page, Sansa mentally notes that “Robert [would] be pleased” at the news of Myranda’s coming, because “[h]e liked Myranda”, implying not only that Robert has met her before but that Myranda made a good impression in her prior visit(s). While it’s certainly good political sense for any Vale aristocrat to treat the Lord of the Eyrie with respect, Myranda shows Robert genuine warmth and kindness: kneeling to meet him at his level, grandly lying that he had “grown so big” and would “be taller than me soon”, and joining Sansa-as-Alayne in allaying Robert’s fears by agreeing that the Winged Knight could indeed fly “[h]igher than the mountains” - all important actions to take toward a young boy infantalized and dismissed as sickly for virtually his entire eight years of life. Like Sansa, who plays to Robert’s favorite stories of chivalric heroism to encourage his bravery, Myranda offers Robert a rare opportunity for pride in himself in this trek down the mountain. Indeed, Myranda acts exactly as Sansa believes Mya Stone should have - “greet[ing] him with a smile” and “[telling] him how strong and brave he looks” - a positive reflection on both Myranda’s relationship with Robert and her perceptive sense of manners. 

Related to this point, Myranda seems to have a keen and natural grasp of her position; this is a young woman who understands how to be lady of a castle to her fingertips. The little Sansa initially knows of Myranda Royce includes the fact that Myranda “kept her father's castle for him”, and that “it was a much livelier court when she was home than when she was away”. Myranda’s courtly experience is on full display in Sansa’s TWOW sample chapter. When the Waynwood party arrives to the Gates of the Moon, Myranda curtsies to Lady Anya, politely ignores Wallace Waynwood’s stammer, adds some sweetly witty commentary on the upcoming feast and tourney, and informs the Waynwoods of their and their party’s lodging with both grace and tact. Too, while she might continue to provide her cutting opinions privately to Sansa-as-Alayne, Myranda also seems to know where to express herself more subtly: calling to Sansa-as-Alayne for a less rude escape from her Lipps and Shett admirers, and quietly teasing Lyn Corbray (whom Myranda already identified as an unlikely suitor) by piously wishing for a healthy delivery for that Corbray sister-in-law whose pregnancy Lyn resents so much. 

Which, of course, only highlights the (relative) societal knife edge on which Myranda exists. As the daughter of the head of the lesser branch of her family, Myranda already occupies a place lower than that of other Vale blue-bloods - recall Littlefinger’s note to Sansa that Myranda’s father was in part quite willing to believe Littlefinger precisely because he, Nestor, was “very much aware that he was born of the lesser branch of House Royce”. As “a widow, but scarce used”, to borrow her rueful turn of phrase, Myranda has neither the maidenhood so prized by aristocratic Westerosi nor the dynastic investment of a child with her late husband - and by extension, a socially acceptable role(s) as wife and/or mother. Myranda is, in the cold and unfair calculus of Westerosi aristocratic marriage making, a lesser prize - a fact Myranda herself appears to recognize all too well. As she sighs to Sansa-as-Alayne, Myranda cannot determine “whether it was me she [i.e. Anya Waynwood] found unsuitable [for Harry Hardyng], or just my dowry”; too, as Sansa herself picks up, behind Myranda’s japes of Sansa-as-Alayne’s apparent success in being betrothed to Harry, there is the hurt of a young woman brusquely reminded that she was, at least in the estimation of Lady Waynwood, not good enough for such a match. In the zero sum game of Westerosi matchmaking, Sansa-as-Alayne cannot win (again, only in the  sense of a betrothal to a politically very important fiancé) without Myranda losing out on that exact match. 

This tension, in turn, I think as much defines Myranda’s relationship with Sansa as the duality of Myranda as both (potential) friend and foe does for Sansa’s relationship with her.  Myranda has the name and familial credentials, but not the dowry to make good on them or the aristocratic marriage to show for them; Sansa-as-Alayne is (ostensibly) an unlegitimized bastard of a rather upjumped lord, yet she has the great dowry and (as of the start of TWOW) the brilliant future marriage to the heir presumptive of House Arryn. Consequently, when Myranda first meets Sansa-as-Alayne, it is Myranda who condescends (in the most fundamental meaning of the word) to her: “I am 'my lady' at the Gates”, Myranda reminds Sansa-as-Alayne, “but up here on the mountain you may call me Randa”, a quiet reminder that it is Myranda who can waive the privilege of formal address because she herself is automatically entitled to such a style. It is Myranda who sniffs at the “common girl”, not even dignified with a first name, with whom Harry fathered a child; Myranda who thinly veils the bitterness in her observation that “Harry could have done much worse” than marry her, even if she was, as she reflects, widowed and no longer a maiden; and Myranda who declares that she “shan’t concern [herself]” with Sansa-as-Alayne’s “bastard breasts” when comparing their physical appearances. Likewise, it is Myranda who scathingly asks whether Sansa-as-Alayne “ever knew] a Sisterman who could joust”, as according to Myranda “[t]hey clean their swords with codfish oil and wash in tubs of cold seawater” - proper performance of chivalry being so often equated in Westerosi society with aristocratic bearing. These two young women occupy similar, yet opposed, liminal spaces in their society (as I talked about before specifically with Sansa), operating in an aristocratic sphere that at the same time embraces and rejects them, but for very different reasons. 

What I could certainly see is that when (not if) Sansa-as-Alayne is in fact revealed as Sansa Stark in TWOW (ahem, Shadrich), Myranda helps verify Sansa’s true identity (having, again, perhaps puzzled out as much from observing her). More importantly, I hope that Myranda is not in fact an antagonist to Sansa out of some petty sense of jealousy (I had plenty of negative female relationships in F&B, thank you very much), but rather helps undermine Littlefinger’s governing thesis presence in Sansa’s life (before the final denouncement of Littlefinger by Sansa at Winterfell, anyway). For Littlefinger, who values and employs lies and deception as a fundamental aspect of his character, a figure who seeks out truthful information is indeed a disturbing, dangerous individual. Moreover, as a confident and (again, relatively) independently secure aristocratic young woman in her own right, Myranda Royce almost certainly represents to Littlefinger a threat to his isolation of and control over Sansa; just as Cersei separated Sansa from Jeyne Poole in the immediate aftermath of the purge of the Stark household to keep Sansa alone and friendless (remaking with annoyance that “[t]he gods only know what sort of tales she's been filling Sansa's head with” - that is, true stories of the violence and bloodshed of the purge), so I think Littlefinger fears the appearance of a potential friend to Sansa, unconnected to himself, who could begin to influence and encourage her in ways he would not be able to oversee. In perhaps identifying Sansa as a Stark, but then supporting her, Myranda may appear to Sansa as a deliberate rejection of Littlefinger’s description of her as a truth-seeking villain - and, in turn, begin the downfall of Littlefinger himself. 

[asa-do-your-thing]

Dreams - 1 - Jon

18+ MINORS DNI Jon Snow x F!OC / Robb Stark x F!OC Word Count: 3.3k Masterlist with Fic Warnings - Contains Death, SA and Abuse.  Dividers by @cafekitsune

It had always been relatively crowded in Winterfell when it came to the Stark family, Jon noted. At first it was Lord Eddard, Lady Stark, and Robb, followed by him, Theon Greyjoy, Sansa, Bran, Arya, Rickon… and Lucie.

They had been a rag-tag band of kids, playing, hitting, and chasing each other. Theon had gladly joined their games, yet he, along with Sansa quickly realised that Jon was not a Stark - he was a half-brother at best and a Bastard at worst.

Lucie had never really been a part of the group seeing as she was the last person to join them, yet she was always there to prevent things from getting out of hand. Everyone had given Jon respect when she was present. She was a key player in maintaining an atmosphere of harmony in Winterfell’s spacious halls.

Looking up at her from his distant seat at dinner, Jon thought back to the day where she had joined them. Lord Eddard had told them a few weeks before that they were going to have a new ward; her family had sadly passed away and he graciously allowed her to be taken in with them until she came of age, which was just around the corner.

Lady Lucie Templeton of Ninestars, a distinguished Lady of the Vale. A title befitting her remarkable poise and presence. Jon had envisioned her as resembling an older iteration of Sansa: statuesque, elegant, and, above all, exuding an air of haughtiness and subtle aloofness towards him.

He knew he would forever remember her arrival; gallantly riding into Winterfell astride her untamed black stallion. As her lengthy black locks billowed behind her in the wind, she fearlessly surged through the gates on her steed. Dismounting with the finesse of a seasoned warrior, she strode confidently in his direction. All those present, Jon included, involuntarily retreated to afford her space, captivated by her awe-inspiring presence.

Noticing his stare, she quickly glanced over at him and caught his eye before turning away and exchanging greetings with Lord and Lady Stark. He was struck dumb by how commanding yet beautiful she was in that moment—her dark black eyes glowing with life despite the dire situation she had come from. Using his newfound courage — because only a fool wouldn’t be afraid in her presence — he managed to stammer out a few words of greeting which she returned warmly before moving on to meet the rest of the family.

It hadn’t taken too long for Jon to recognize that Lucie was not like anyone else he had ever met; even the Starks seemed impressed by her strength and poise (though they masked it well). But despite being adopted into this strange new world, Lucie still held onto an air of confidence and self-assurance that made even Jon feel small next to her.

He watched her with a critical eye, noting the way Robb and Theon stared at her with rapt attention, despite her meek and unassuming attempt at conversation. Instead of commanding the room as was expected of her, she averted her gaze and twiddled her fingers nervously while speaking in a barely audible whisper.

Jon had taken such care to make her feel welcome, in those days. He showed her the way around Winterfell, whenever she got lost again, and even taught her to pray to the old gods. Lady Catelyn scolded him for that - Lucie had grown up in the shadow of the Seven, the new Gods. Robb had gone out of his way to try and make her feel comfortable. He offered her a seat by the fire in the Great Hall while he fed her lessons on battles and strategy, noting that Lucie was a fast learner - able to keep up with him even as he tried to pummel her with facts. Theon, though never one for charity, seemed more enthralled by Lucie than any of them. Mostly because Lucie was not the type to laugh at his bad jokes or take part in his pranks - she was always too busy trying to stay one step ahead of everyone else in terms of knowledge.

Jon smiled fondly at his memories; he had been so sure that Lady Lucie would be like Sansa - aloof and haughty. Instead, she had become a dear friend and family member who could hold her own when needed - serving as an equal rather than a subordinate. It was amazing how someone so young could possess such depth and strength — something Jon admired greatly about her.

As the last plate was cleared, he glanced at Lucie and saw her weary eyes plead for solace. It had become a ritual - every night after dinner, while the others scurried off to their beds, she would stay in the library with him. They talked quietly about her struggles and sorrows as she clutched an aged book in her hands and the tears ran like rain down her face. On her first day, when everyone else had gone to bed, she asked meekly if she could stay up and read in the library. Septa Mordane attempted to bar her from doing so, but with one pained glance at Lord Eddard, her request was granted, albeit only if someone stayed with her. Together Jon and Lady Lucie walked into the library, and he felt nothing but pity and sadness for this brave little girl who had trusted him since the first time they had gone to talk.

That evening, all these moons ago, was something that made Jon cringe when looking back. Robb had tried to console the girl, yet after several unsuccessful attempts he asked for Jon's help. “Jon, nothing I said could get through to her. I offered her a pony, flowers, and new gowns, but she told me to go away. What’s wrong with her? She won’t tell me anything. Should I tell Septa Mordane or my mother?” Robb’s face was pale as he ran his hand through his hair anxiously.

Jon had crept back to the library, his leather belt clattering against the tops of his thighs as he walked. “Robb, do not try to console her. SHe is in mourning for her family and her home. I think you might scare her. Let me handle this.” Robb nodded acknowledgement and Jon entered the library, quietly shutting the door behind him. Lucie was hunched near the window, sobbing away. Robb was right, Jon had thought painfully; he could hear her muffled sobs and it made his heart ache for her. All he wanted was for her to feel some sense of comfort again.

Sitting down next to her, he cleared his throat to announce his presence. She looked up and sighed, wiping her tears and closed her worn book. “Please do not tell me all will be fine and for the love of… of the Gods, do not offer me a damned pony,” she muttered and sniffed.

“Even if I could, I wouldn’t. You have a fine steed yourself; I do not see the need for you to have a pony,” he said matter-of-factly and shifted in his seat, offering her a rag to blow her nose.

Lucie looked up at him, her dark eyes reddened by the tears. Tentatively blowing her nose, she sighed and tucked her feet under herself, hiding them under her lavish skirts. “So, I take it you are Jon Snow.”

He sighed, knowing that what would follow would be her acknowledgement of his status as a Bastard. He knew it all too well; Lady Catelyn had probably told her of that, prior to her arrival. She looked so young, so maybe he could still forgive her. “Indeed, I am, Lady Lucie.”

She had frowned, gently furrowing her thick, dark brows, patting the tears away from her reddened cheeks. “Why do you look like… Like I hurt you?”

Jon was baffled back then. She did not care about his mother, then. He might just start liking her. He gave her a small smile. “Oh, I... uhm…” His words, whatever they would’ve been, were stuck in his throat. “That is my mistake, my Lady. I meant no offense.”

“You are a peculiar man,” she noted, biting her lip, and putting the book to the side. “How could you offend me with your face? I think it is a fine one, I have seen worse.”

A big blush had crept up his cheeks. “I… My lady, I… Thank you.” Silence spread between them. “May I ask why you wished to go into the library and not just to your chambers?”

Now it had been Lucie’s turn to blush, though it seemed more in shame than in bashfulness. “That’s where my mother used to read to me and where we wrote before retiring to our chambers. I know, I know, it sounds childish, I should act like a Lady, but…” Tears welled up in her eyes again and spilled onto her dress.

With a nervous look, she stood up and sat down next to him, resting her head against his shoulder, crying quietly. Jon had decided not to probe, instead looking at the booklet. It didn’t belong to the Stark’s library - it must’ve been one of her own, titled ‘You shall be the best Lady.’ He hugged her, holding her gently, for the longest time, until her tears subsided, and her breath became calm once more. Sniffling, she gently broke free from his hug and gave him a small smile. “Thank you, Jon. I… shall retire now, I think.” To which he nodded, escorting her to her chamber.

Jon watched Lucie's figure slowly fade away down the hallway as darkness crept in, just like it had one year ago at the very same spot. But something was different about her tonight than in the first night. She seemed stronger, more confident as if she was hiding something from him. Should he confront her? He thought back to their conversations and noticed that she had been silent about what was going on with her life lately. He began to worry that maybe she had found out his secret - that terrible, shameful secret about how he touched himself late at night when no one would ever know. The mere thought sent a chill down Jon's spine.

She could not know, nobody could, it'd be the end of him.

He was entranced by the way Lucie had looked at him, with those mysterious dark eyes that seemed to know what he was feeling. Part of him wanted to believe that she felt something for him too- after all, he was the only one she allowed to spend time with her. But then there were moments when he could not help but feel that his own longing for her was deluding himself into seeing signs where there were none. He wished he could make sense of what she thought of him, yet he still could not unravel the complex of feelings between them.

Hells, he could not unravel his own thoughts, after all.

As he made his way back to his own chambers, he found himself lost in thought, replaying their conversation over and over in his mind. Lucie babbled something about Sansa's lady-friend crying and Arya asking her to train mounted shooting and, as always, Septa Mordane's question about her blood, which to her chagrin had still not come.

Jon could not comprehend why she felt so mortified by her own coming of age. She was now an adult at the ripe age of six-and-ten; why did this cause her such humiliation? Though he could somehow understand what she was implying, that everything associated with becoming a full woman was linked to... carnal passions.

He stopped walking for a second, remembering the redness of her cheeks as she talked about it. He shook his head and continued his way, not wanting to dwell on it any longer. He didn't want to assume anything – that was only a recipe for disaster and disappointment.

He was so deep in thought that he didn't even notice the figure standing in the shadows until it was too late.

A hand clamped over his mouth, muffling his cry of surprise. He struggled against the grip, but the person holding him was much stronger than he expected. Panic set in as he realised, he was being dragged away, the darkness swallowing him whole. When they finally stopped, Jon was disoriented and confused. He tried to shake the cobwebs from his head, but it was difficult to focus with the adrenaline pumping through his veins. It took a moment for his eyes to adjust to the dim candlelight of his bedchamber, but when they did, he could not believe what he was seeing.

Lucie stood before him, blushing, and wiping off the sweat from her brow, her hair undone and cascading over her shoulders in waves. She was clad in a simple cotton gown, the kind that the maids wore. Jon felt his heart skip a beat as he suddenly realised what was happening. He was afraid to speak, afraid that if he did, it would shatter the moment and she would disappear like a dream.

"Lucie?" he said confused, his voice cracking. “What on earth?!”

She grinned at him, the candlelight casting a warm glow across her face as she tried fixing the cloak around herself again. "I am sorry for this… unconventional method. I thought that this would be the safest way to be truly alone with you because... I want to talk to you. Without Lady Catelyn spying."

"I am sorry, I didn't mean to upset you or hurt you," Jon muttered and felt his throat tightening, gulping, and trying to swallow back the lump in his throat. How could he feel this way? He should not have felt anything for Lucie as she wrestled him into his room, but there was something thrilling and forbidden about it. It was not like Robb or Theon playing a joke on him - this moment was different. Even though he knew it was wrong, he could not help himself.

She tilted her chin up at him, her glossy black hair cascading down her back. Her voice was firm and determined as she spoke. "No, I am not angry. I want to know what it's like, Jon. What people do when they become intimate with one another. No one ever told me these things, but I trust you. Please tell me what it feels like, what am I supposed to do and how much does it hurt?"

He could feel his heart pounding in his chest. This was wrong - he knew that - yet he could not find the strength to deny her. The drive she had to learn more overshadowed her usual innocence, and there was something in that blazing gaze of hers that made it impossible for him to turn her away.

"Lucie, I do not think-"

"Please," she interrupted, taking a step closer to him. "I trust you, Jon. I know you won't lie to me. No one wanted to tell me and... I am...," her voice faltered, and she nervously bit her lip, sitting down on the foot of his bed, gently scratching Ghost between his fluffy ears. "I feel tens of thousands of things, most of all fear and... I trust you to help me."

Jon's heart was pounding in his chest, his mind racing with a million thoughts at once. He knew that what Lucie was asking was wrong, that he should not be indulging her curiosity in this way. But still, he could not deny the pull he felt towards her. It was as if a part of him had been waiting for this moment, for her to come to him with her questions and her fears.

He took a deep breath and stepped closer to her, his hand reaching out to touch her shoulder. "Lucie, I can't teach you those things," he said softly, trying to keep his voice steady. "It's not right. You are too young, and it's not... it's not something that should be taken lightly."

Her pupils widened with shock, and she gave him an awkward, confused glance. "But why?" she questioned, her voice wavering slightly. "I thought... I thought we had established an atmosphere of trust, considering all I've shared with you."

Jon's heart lurched as he heard the pain in Lucie's voice. He did care for her deeply, far more than he should. But that didn't change the fact that what she was suggesting was both dangerous and wrong.

Taking a shaky step back, he shook his head sadly. "Lucie, you do not know what You are asking of me," he said quietly. "It's not something I can take back once it's done, and it's a decision that should only be made with someone you truly love and whom you plan to spend your life with. You know we can never marry... You are a highborn Lady, and I am just..." His tongue stumbled over the word he wanted to say, knowing that even a whisper of his parentage had the power to shatter their moment.

Lucie stared at him for a long moment, her sharp eyes zigzagging across his face like she was searching for something he could not place. Then she let out an awkward laugh and touched his shoulder with tenderness. She adjusted herself under her nightgown, probably trying to hide the embarrassment that came with their misunderstanding.

"Oh Jon! I only wanted you to talk me through it, not show me!" She said in between giggles as she planted a gentle peck on his stubbly cheek. "You are so imaginative," Biting her lip, she looked away before continuing: "What do you think I am? A hungry harlot looking for prey?" With a suppressed smile, she raised an eyebrow waiting for his response, her cheeks ablaze.

Jon could not help but let out a small laugh at her words, the tension in the room dissipating slightly. "No, no, of course not, Lucie," he said, feeling relieved that she didn't expect more from him. He wanted her to... have flowered, he wanted them to have kissed, he wanted it to be less... dangerous, to be more romantic.

"I am sorry, I just... I didn't want to disappoint you. I know how important this is to you, but it's not something I can do. Not right now, at least. I do not want to lie... I uh..." The heat shot straight back into his head. "I have only ever talked about it, I've yet to... lie with someone." Because I am saving myself for you, I want you, only you, Lucie... the thoughts whirred in his head.

Lucie nodded, her expression softening. "Oh, I understand then," she said quietly, clearly unhappy with his response. "I just... I feel so lost sometimes. There's so much I do not know, so much I am not allowed to know. And I am afraid... afraid of being alone forever. I... I mean, yes, I will be married soon, and we both know who it will be with a high probability, but..."

As Jon gazed into her eyes, her vulnerability tugged at his heartstrings. He knew he could not leave her feeling like this; she deserved better than that. So, he inched closer and sat down on the bed beside her.

"You'll never be alone, Lucie," he whispered softly as he took her hand in his. "I'll always have your back no matter what happens. And someday, the man who's meant for you will come into your life."

He thought about Robb, and how he owed it to him to let Lucie go. It was selfish of him to keep her to himself. Besides, he could not even tell if she liked him or not - it was probably all in his head.

With a mix of gratitude and sadness, he knew that there was no going back from this moment. He leaned in, pressing a soft kiss to her forehead, which smelled wonderfully of peonies, and she closed her eyes, her arms tightening around his waist. For a moment, they sat there in silence, lost in their own thoughts and feelings, until he pulled away, breaking the moment.

"I should get some rest," he mumbled, trying to guess the time. "You should too, we are to hunt tomorrow."

Lucie shifted back into her old, sad self and gave him a tired smile. "Of course. I wouldn't want Robb and Theon to think that I do not want to see them. It's... uhm, I am sorry to have bothered you, Jon. I promise it won't happen again." She got up and tied her cloak around her shoulders. "I am bringing you in dangerous situations, you know, being alone with you and then overstepping your boundaries. I am... sorry," she mumbled.

'No, you haven't! Please do not leave!', shot through Jon's mind, yet he knew he could not, it was wrong. It was shameful and... he didn't want to project his feelings and his lust onto her, so he gave her a small, sad smile in return.

As Lucie turned to leave, Jon could not help but watch her walk away, his eyes lingering on the sway of her hips. When she stood up, a bright flash of red silk slipped out from under her nightgown; the ribbon that held her stockings around her pale, supple thighs. He knew it was wrong to think of it, of her, in that way, but he could not help it. She was so beautiful, so pure, and so unreachable.

He wanted her, desperately.

He shook his head, trying to rid himself of those thoughts. It was wrong, so wrong. He had to push those feelings aside, for both their sakes. He could not risk ruining the delicate balance they had between them. So, he took a deep breath, laying back on the bed. His thoughts drifted to the memory of Lucie's lost ribbon, the image of her silky stockings and smooth skin replaying in his mind. He felt himself growing hard again, and he knew what he had to do.

He closed his eyes and let his hand wander down to his growing erection, imagining it was Lucie's small, delicate hand instead. He stroked himself slowly, feeling his heartbeat quicken as he thought of her. He pictured her beautiful face, the curve of her lips, the arch of her eyebrows, her sharp, sparkling eyes. He imagined her soft, warm skin, her supple thighs, her tight, wet cunny.

As he continued to stroke himself, he let out a low moan, his body writhing with pleasure. He fantasised about Lucie being with him, touching him, kissing him, and eventually, making love to him. He imagined her moaning his name, her body trembling with ecstasy.

He stroked himself faster, his breathing growing ragged as his body approached the peak of pleasure. He moaned louder, his hand moving faster and faster until he finally exploded, spilling his hot seed all over his hand.

As he lay there, panting and sweating, he knew he had to get his feelings for Lucie under control. He could not let his lust for her ruin the special bond they shared. But at the same time, he could not stop himself from fantasising about her. She was just too beautiful, too alluring, too... perfect.

He closed his eyes and took a deep breath, feeling his body slowly calming down. He knew he had a lot to think about, a lot to figure out. But for now, he just needed to rest. He closed his eyes and let himself drift off to sleep, his mind full of thoughts of Lucie.

AO3 <= Other Stories ¦ Next Chapter => 2 - Robb

[rise-my-angel]

if robb had lived and reader had given birth to his son how do you think it would’ve gone and robb’s reaction/behaviour during it all vs what ended up happening with jon and eddard

Well, it goes a lot better for Robb let's be honest. You might be at war, but by the time you came to around seven months verging on eight, he would have you moved to Riverrun where you could spend the last month safe and deliver the baby somewhere that is still home. Even if you were early, which is debatable, considering you were early with Jons baby because of physical strain on the body and a massive amount of stress.

But most of all, you'd give birth surrounded by midwives, a Maester would be there and you would not be alone with Robb in a cave north of the Wall. So...already it's looking better for you two.

If we assume that in this version Tywin still dies, then its a good chance after that happens the war would be won on Robbs side considering how quickly Cersei shows herself as incapable of being a proper ruler in Tommens stead. Giving Robb a chance to get ahead. Meaning he is no longer looking at battle, but strategy towards the remaining Lannisters in Kings Landing, which he can do safely from Riverrun.

Basically, Robb is much more at ease. He has you in a safe place, and he will keep you in that safe place until he is sure he can get you and the baby home. He'd be a lot more stable, a lot less worrying and controlling the way Jon is. The lack of traumatic and extreme circumstances would really lessen the stress on you two, and have a chance at just spending the baby's first few months relatively normal.

Now, a lot changes in this scenario, considering how important your resurrection is to the degree of magical ability within you. Meaning that you likely wouldn't become a target for Euron Greyjoy, so that threat is taken out for you two. Theres no fight against the Boltons because in this scenario so there's a lack of that threat to fight against.

Really, there is a lack of direct threat in your lives at that point so there is a lot less strain on you both. Robb really would get the better chance at being a father and husband better then Jon gets, because even though you're at war, you are in significantly less danger in Riverrun then you were beyond the Wall.

But really, Robb in the afterlife finding out the circumstances in which you gave birth with Jons baby and Ned and Brandon Stark have to hold him back from going down there and haunting Jon for the rest of his days. "SHE WAS FUCKING WHERE WHEN SHE GAVE BIRTH, SNOW???"

[demongemz]

welcome to london, JON SNOW! did anyone ever tell you that you look just like KIT HARINGTON? well, no matter, we hear that you are 30 and working as a BODYGAURD FOR THE FARM. we also hear that you currently DON'T HAVE your memories from GAME OF THRONES and have a tendency to be LOYAL as well as STUBBORN.

DEMOGRAPHICS

Name: Jon Snow Aegon Targaryen Relatives: None that he remembers Occupation: BodyGaurd Birthday: 281 AC Age: 30 Sexual Orientation: Bisexual Moral Alignment: Chaotic Good Memory Status: Broken

BACKGROUND

Jon Snow, born Aegon Targaryen, is the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen, the late Prince of Dragonstone. From infancy, Jon is presented as the bastard son of Lord Eddard Stark, Lyanna's brother, and raised alongside Eddard's lawful children at Winterfell. Jon's true parentage is kept secret from everyone, including Jon himself, to protect him from those who seek the complete annihilation of House Targaryen. Jon joins the Night's Watch and is later elected as Lord Commander. As a result of several controversial decisions, such as allowing the wildlings to settle south of the Wall, Jon is murdered in a mutiny but is resurrected by the red priestess Melisandre. Freed from his Night's Watch vows, Jon and his half-sister Sansa Stark retake Winterfell from House Bolton, restoring House Stark's dominion over the North. Jon is declared King in the North. Jon negotiates with Daenerys Targaryen for an alliance against the White Walkers in the imminent Great War. Later he pledges himself and his army to Daenerys, with whom he falls in love, subsequently abdicating his throne and being named Warden of the North. Later, Jon learns his true lineage from Samwell Tarly, revealing Daenerys is his aunt. A dragon rider whose dragon was Rhaegal, he fights in the Battle of Winterfell, during which the Night King is defeated and the return of the Long Night is prevented. Afterward, Jon aids Daenerys in her resumed campaign to take the Iron Throne and participates in the Battle of King's Landing. However, when Daenerys lays waste to a surrendered King's Landing, Jon tries but is unable to dissuade her from more destruction and assassinates her to prevent further carnage. Following a Great Council in the Dragonpit, Jon is sent into exile, returning to the Night's Watch. He leads the remaining Free Folk to settle in the thawing free lands.

[aquamarinemarie]

Jon Snow and all his wannabe daddies.

Rhaegar Targaryen - the cock from which he sprung.

Eddard Stark - the man he still believes is his father. Look out Maury Povich.

Benjen Stark - the uncle who went out to get some smokes and never came back.

Donal Noye - the man who told him to stop being an arrogant twat.

Jeor Mormont - the man who gifted him his ancestral family sword. Jorah (his actual son) is going to have a cow.

Maester Aemon - an actual unknown relative, who could've told him all about his real daddy.

Mance Rayder - his possible foreshadowed future self. King-Beyond-the-Wall.

Tormund - his instant free folk, wildling bestie.

Stannis Baratheon - the-man-without-charm who offered to give him a castle and a super hot wife.

Who will be Jon's next daddy? Find out whenever - if ever - the Winds of Winter is released.

[asoiaf-fancasts]

Eddard Stark - Fancasts

Age: 08 - 36

18 - 20 [Tourney to End of

Rebellion]

26 - 27 [Greyjoys’s Rebellion]

Appearance: He has a long face with long brown hair. His beard is closely trimmed with grey starting come in making him look older. He has dark grey eyes. He is shorter than his brother and is allegedly plainer looking.

Character: Edmund Pevensie

Actor: Skander Keynes

Movie[s]: Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe, Prince Caspian & Voyage of the Dawn Threader

[He’s 13/14 - 16/17 during the first two movies so good for when he is being fostered by Jon Arryn. He is the perfect age for during the Tourney of Harrenhal in the last movie. He has brown hair, dark eyes but not grey. He wears medieval ish clothes/armour along with 1930’s/1940’s clothes.]

Character: Piero di Lorenzo de Medici

Actor: Louis Patridge

Show: Medici [2016] [Season 3]

[He was 15/16 during this season so good for Ned being fostered by Jon Arryn. He has a long ish face,brown hair, dark eyes but they aren’t grey. He wears 15th century Italian clothes.]

Character: Gilbert Blythe

Actor: Lucas Jade Zumann

Show: Anne with an E [2017]

[He is 17 - 19 during this show so good for just before the Tourney at Harrenhal and during Roberts Rebellion. He has a long ish face, brown eyes that are dark but not grey. He wears 18th century clothes so he is better for close ups.]

Character: King William

Actor: Sam Claflin

Movie: Snow White and the Huntsman [2012]

[He was 25/26 during this movie is the right age for him during Greyjoy’s Rebellion. He has a long ish face, long brown hair, a closely trimmed beard and his eyes are a dark grey/brown. He wears fantasy medieval clothes.]

Character: Gawain

Actor: Dev Patel

Movie: The Green Knight [2021]

[He was 30/31 during this movie so too young for him in the book timeline. He has a long face with long dark brown/black hair and his beard is relatively short. He has dark eyes but they’re not grey. He wears fantasy clothes.]

Character: Uthred of Bebbanburg

Actor: Alexander Dreymon

Show: The Last Kingdom [2015] [Season 4]

[He is too young for Ned during the books at the start of the series at 32 but is around the right age for Ned in season 4 at 36/37. He has a long face, long brown hair and has a somewhat closely trimmed beard. His hair from season 1 is more accurate to Ned though. He unfortunately has light eyes of the wrong colour. He wears Norse ish clothes.]

Character: Alfred

Actor: David Dawson

Show: The Last Kingdom [2015] [Season 2 & 3]

[He is too young for Ned in season 1 but is around the right age for him in season 2 and 3 at around 35-36. He has a long face, his has somewhat long brown hair and a closely trimmed bread that has grey in it that makes him look older than his age.His eyes are dark but not grey. He wears Saxon clothes.]

Character: Ross Poldark

Actor: Aiden Turner

Show: Poldark [2015] [Season 4 & 5]

[He is too young for Ned during the first book at 32 -34 in earlier seasons but is around the right age at 34/35 - 36 in the last two seasons. He has a long face, long dark brown hair and dark eyes but they’re not grey.He wears 18th century clothes.]

Character: Robert Bruce

Actor: Chris Pine

Movie: Outlaw King [2018]

[He is a couple years too old for book Ned at 37/38 but I think he’s still okay because Ned is said to look older with the grey in his beard. He has long hair but it’s more grey than brown and his eyes are light blue. He does face a long face with a brown and grey beard. He has a wife that looks like Catelyn but is too young for book Catelyn but has a daughter perfect for Arya.He wears 14th century clothes.]

[kellyvela]

While the previous anon went about it the wrong way I do there are some similarities between the hound and Jon:

1. Relatively similar coloring (Jon: brown hair and grey eyes/hound: black hair grey eyes)

2. Association to canines (Dog and Wolf)

3. Burn wounds (Jon on his right arm/Hound on the right side of his face)

4. Batb imagery.

But more than that I think the hound is a foreshadowing for future Jon. The hound is cynical, temperamental, and beast like individual who got ‘tempered’ by Sansa’s singing and gentle touch. Jon will likely be cynical, temperamental, and beast like when he’s resurrected and will need Sansa’s singing and gentle touch to be tempered. The hound is just as much a placeholder for Jon as Ygritte is for Sansa. Granted he has other purposes too, but one of them is to hint at Jon.

As I said in my previous post: "Yes, in general we can say they are both men, with grey eyes and dark hair, they are both member’s of military orders, they both showed romantic/sexual interest in girls with shades of red hair. But this is all very superficial."

So when you say this: "Relatively similar coloring (Jon: brown hair and grey eyes/hound: black hair grey eyes)", I remember the time I listed all the Asoiaf men with that traits combo (all shade of grey eyes and all shades of dark hair), and they are a lot, Littlefinger included, it's pretty common really. So this isn't a strong argument.

I know some hound shippers use "the northern look" in favor of their ship because that one time someone thought the hound was Arya's father (this is connected with Sansa's wish to have a daughter that looks like Arya), but any adult man seen with a child, is assumed to be the child's father, even if they don't look alike, because not all children look like their fathers. Ask Eddard Stark about his Tully look children.

And talking about Eddard Stark, a character that really looks like Arya, let's remember that time Ned referred to Jon as a younger version of himself. So the character that really looks like Arya (long solemn face, grey eyes and brown hair) is Jon Snow.

GRRM is very strict with traits and coloring. For example, there are a lot of blue-eyed characters, but among them the Tully Blue stands out. There are also many famous shades of red hair, among them the famous Tully Auburn and the Dondarrion Red Gold.

That's why I always object the "similar look" argument, because the Stark Look in particular includes not only grey eyes, but also BROWN hair and a long solemn face.

And you know who is very close to the Stark Look? Waymar Royce, a famous Jon Snow lookalike.

Now about this one: "Association to canines (Dog and Wolf)," GRRM has put a lot of effort into differentiating and disassociating common dogs and direwolves.

As I said before: "Direwolves are not dogs. Direwolves are not simple pets. Direwolves are superior in comparison. Also these particular direwolves, the Stark kids’s direwolves, are gifts from the Old Gods and part of their masters’ souls."

And this statement “Direwolves are not dogs” is repeated a lot in the Books, mostly through Lady and Ghost:

Jon had started drinking then, and he had not stopped. Something rubbed against his leg beneath the table. Jon saw red eyes staring up at him. “Hungry again?” he asked. There was still half a honeyed chicken in the center of the table. Jon reached out to tear off a leg, then had a better idea. He knifed the bird whole and let the carcass slide to the floor between his legs. Ghost ripped into it in savage silence. His brothers and sisters had not been permitted to bring their wolves to the banquet, but there were more curs than Jon could count at this end of the hall, and no one had said a word about his pup. He told himself he was fortunate in that too. His eyes stung. Jon rubbed at them savagely, cursing the smoke. He swallowed another gulp of wine and watched his direwolf devour the chicken. Dogs moved between the tables, trailing after the serving girls. One of them, a black mongrel bitch with long yellow eyes, caught a scent of the chicken. She stopped and edged under the bench to get a share. Jon watched the confrontation. The bitch growled low in her throat and moved closer. Ghost looked up, silent, and fixed the dog with those hot red eyes. The bitch snapped an angry challenge. She was three times the size of the direwolf pup. Ghost did not move. He stood over his prize and opened his mouth, baring his fangs. The bitch tensed, barked again, then thought better of this fight. She turned and slunk away, with one last defiant snap to save her pride. Ghost went back to his meal.Jon grinned and reached under the table to ruffle the shaggy white fur. The direwolf looked up at him, nipped gently at his hand, then went back to eating. —A Game of Thrones - Jon I

Eddard Stark had left before dawn, Septa Mordane informed Sansa as they broke their fast. “The king sent for him. Another hunt, I do believe. There are still wild aurochs in these lands, I am told.” “I’ve never seen an aurochs,” Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen. Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. “A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table,” she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread. “She’s not a dog, she’s a direwolf,” Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. “Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want.” The septa was not appeased. “You’re a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you’re as willful as your sister Arya.” She scowled. “And where is Arya this morning?” “She wasn’t hungry,” Sansa said, knowing full well that her sister had probably stolen down to the kitchen hours ago and wheedled a breakfast out of some cook’s boy. —A Game of Thrones - Sansa I

Rattleshirt’s dogs greeted him with a chorus of snarls and growls and wild barking, as ever, but the direwolf paid them no mind. Six days ago, the largest hound had attacked him from behind as the wildlings camped for the night, but Ghost had turned and lunged, sending the dog fleeing with a bloody haunch. The rest of the pack maintained a healthy distance after that. —A Storm of Swords - Jon I "They’re dogs and he’s a wolf,” said Jon. “They know he’s not their kind.” No more than I am yours.  —A Storm of Swords - Jon I It happened twice more that night, and again in the morning, when she woke to find him hard. The wildlings were stirring by then, and several could not help but notice what was going on beneath the pile of furs. Jarl told them to be quick about it, before he had to throw a pail of water over them. Like a pair of rutting dogs, Jon thought afterward. Was that what he’d become?  —A Storm of Swords - Jon III

Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said. —A Storm of Swords - Sansa VI

Just look at that, Jon and Sansa telling us that they are wolves and common dogs aren't good mates for wolves. Wolves must mate with wolves.

Then you said: "Burn wounds (Jon on his right arm/Hound on the right side of his face)"

If I'm not remembering wrong, Jon only got his hand burned, that's why he started to use gloves and flex his hand because his scarred fingers got stiff and clumsy. And the hound also have a burned arm, don't remember what side, but it happened during the trial by combat with Beric Dondarrion. And here I can accept the similarity of getting a hand/an arm burned while fighting against someone who is dead [a man resurrected by the Others (ICE)/a man resurrected by R'hllor (FIRE)]. But this is something that has not direct link with Sansa.

The link between Jon and hound with the death is something that I can't deny, Jon called his direwolf Ghost and he was supposedly "murdered" by his brothers of the Night's Watch, while the hound called his horse Stranger and he metaphorically died at the Quiet Island. But they both share this connection with the death with Arya, who now serves the God of Death, not Sansa.

I know that Lady (a part of Sansa) is also dead and now is referred as Lady's Shade (a synonym of Ghost), but I think this is a particular connection with Jon. A master without a direwolf, a direwolf without a master. There is also the fact that Lady's bones are buried in Winterfell's Lichyard, in a similar way as Lyanna's remains are buried in the Crypts of Winterfell (They both went south and only their bones came back). This connection is very particular and specifically with Jon.

I also know that the hound shippers use this connection with the death to make their fave a Hades figure for Sansa's Persephone. They also associate the three hounds of Clegane's sigil with Cerberus, Hades's three headed hound. And there's also the fact the the hound's horse is called Stranger, like one of the Seven Gods.

The God of Death???? A God with a magical pet???? Sounds more similar to Jon, a man who will conquest the death, and his magical beast companion Ghost, right????

But those shippers always lift their fave (a back row character) to a protagonist level, so they can compare him with actual protagonists like King Arthur, Lancelot, the Beast, Hades, Vincent, Lord Byron, etc. While GRRM calls their fave a villain in every occasion, his shippers call him a Byronic and/or romantic hero.

But Hades (Brother of Zeus) and Persephone (Daughter of Zeus and Demeter) were related, they were uncle and niece, you know, like Lord Jon(nel) Stark and his half-niece, the first Sansa Stark.

And finally you mentioned the "infamous" "Batb imagery". And I said infamous for all the damage that the Batb imagery associated with the hound has caused.

If I remember correctly, GRRM said that he has used a deconstructed version of the Batb trope for Jaime and Brienne. I don't remember any other mention of the Batb trope for other pair of characters.

The one that said he used the Batb imagery to draw the Blackwater scene was the illustrator of the 2012 Asoiaf Calendar, John Picacio. GRRM never "commissioned" an illustration with Sansa and the hound as the Beauty and the Beast. GRRM suggested the illustrator to draw the Blackwater scene (probably he wanted a more accurate representation of that scene) and it was John Picacio who decided to draw the Blackwater scene similar to the Jean Cocteau's film "La Belle et la Bête" poster (Asoiaf artists have a lot of creative license). And later John Picacio gifted a black and white version of that piece to GRRM and he hung it on his office wall. But of course the shippers made up alternative facts to feed their narrative.

Now, despite GRRM never mentioned something about it, it's evident that Sansa is surrounded by Batb imagery, where she is the Beauty, but there is a lot of "beasts" on the prowl.

If we go for ugliness only (inside and out), there is the hound but also Tyrion Lannister and Petyr Baelish.

In the middle we can put the handsome and gallant Loras Tyrell, who never had true affection for Sansa and even accused her of murdering King Joffrey. Now Loras Tyrell, if we can trust Aurane Waters reports to Cersei, has lost his beauty and lie dying wounded and burned by boiling oil.

But If we go deeper than physical beauty (or lack of it), there's JoJo, I mean, there's Joffrey and Jon Snow. Joffrey is the handsome gallant prince who is a real monster inside (and also a bastard), and Jon Snow is the prince in disguise as a bastard who is also a warg, half beast and half human. They both also lived in enchanted/cursed castles and are associated with certain roses. Joffrey lived all his life in the Red Keep and also visited Winterfell, and later spurned Sansa to marry a rose, Margaery Tyrell. Jon Snow lived all his life in Winterfell until he moved to Castle Balck and he is the blue rose (hidden baby) of the Rose of Winterfell (Lyanna) that was abducted by Rhaegar Targaryen (Bael the Bard).

JoJo are kind of switched a birth scenario that I personally believe is the way GRRM adapted the fact that Avenant and the Beast/Prince from Jean Cocteau's film "La Belle et la Bête" were played by the same actor and had the same face, and at the end Belle admitted to the Prince that she loved Avenant's face (beauty) and was happy that he (the Prince) had the same face she loved.

The hound is no prince in disguise, has zero connection with a rose or an enchanted/cursed castle, and more important, he is nothing like the Beast from the tale or Jean Cocteau's film or Vincent from the TV adaptation. All those version of the Beast were kind, gentle and cultured despite their beastly appearance, and most important, they never forced themselves on Beauty, they asked and needed her consent as a way to break the curse.

But the hound shippers will claim over and over that their ship is a the Asoiaf version of the Beauty and the Beast tale, inspired by Jean Cocteau's film and/or the TV adaptation, that the scenes are the same, that the dialogues are the same, etc. And all of that it's just alternative facts and wishful thinking.

As you can see in these posts, the scenes aren't the same and the dialogues aren't the same either.

You can read more about the subject here:

Some fanon/made up things that certain shippers claim to be canon about their ship & the Beauty and the Beast Trope

ASOIAF FANART & CREATIVE LICENSE

In the original fairy tale ‘La Belle et la Bête’ by Madame de Villeneuve, Beauty and Beast/Prince are cousins

There is a version of Beauty and the Beast where the Beast is a white wolf

And if you are really interested in the subject, I recommend you to read @princess-in-a-tower metas:

Sansa’s “Beauty and the Beast” Arc, Part 1

Sansa’s “Beauty and the Beast” Arc, Part 2

Sansa’s “Beauty and the Beast” Arc, Part 3

Sansa’s “Beauty and the Beast” Arc, Part 4

Sansa’s “Beauty and the Beast” Arc, Part 5

Jon’s “Beauty and the Beast” Arc Intro

And to finish this post, let's wonder: Will Jon be cynical, temperamental, and beast like (like the hound) when he’s resurrected???? I hope he's nothing like the hound ever.

I think Jon will probably be more wolf that human, but I don't think he will be dangerous or violent or abusive to Sansa. Being more wolf than human Jon will recognize Sansa's as part of his pack, so I suspect he will be extremely protective of her but probably dangerous for others, especially if he remembers that his own brothers tried to killed him.

And we can agree that Sansa will help Jon to reconnect with his humanity and tame his wolf nature. After all she "tamed" a lot of beasts, not only the hound, like Joffrey, when she convinced him to give a coin to the starving woman with her baby's corpse; like Tyrion, when she outsmarted him and met Dontos in the Godswood every night to plan her scape from King's Landing. And she will do the same with Petyr Baelish (or Tyrion again) when she slay the savage giant in a castle made of snow.

Having said all that, I would call the hound and Ygritte "distractions", especially for cursory readers (George hates to be predictable). But in any case, we can agree to disagree.

Thanks for your message :)

about this post

[ladystoneboobs]

Kings are not supposed to have mothers

just some thoughts, a lot of thoughts, about catelyn/cersei (part of a later, even longer tully trout/lannister lions comparison.)

both ladies made political marriages because of events in robert's rebellion, wedding husbands they'd never met before, whom they were not originally intended for. catelyn was promised to brandon stark, the heir to winterfell, since she was 12, while cersei grew up believing she'd be a targ queen, her father telling her of his plans for a match with prince rhaegar, heir to the iron throne, when she was 6 or 7. catelyn married brandon's brother, the new lord of winterfell, and cersei married rhaegar's worst enemy, the new king on the iron throne. while catelyn grew to love her husband ned and had a relatively happy marriage, cersei had a miserable marriage to robert involving mutual hatred. she still laments that rhaegar was killed by robert on the trident.

both of their husbands were unfaithful (or claimed to be, in ned's case) and fathered at least one bastard after the wedding. ned tried to raise jon as closely to a legit stark as possible, among his and cat's own children, an insult she never got over, though she believed everything would be fine if jon lived elsewhere. robert was more of an absentee father to edric storm and the others, but that did not stop cersei from feeling insulted to the point of murder. she threatened to kill mya stone if she ever came to court, allegedly had twin babies killed after robert fathered them at casterly rock, and most likely ordered the deaths of all of robert's king's landing kids after he died. catelyn's treatment of jon snow is her biggest character flaw and her words to him in their last interaction her worst, wishing him dead or dying in place of bran, yet cersei deems her a mouse for not killing jon as a baby the first chance she got.

both ladies had a "ghost" woman between them and their husbands. in cersei's case it was lyanna, robert's first betrothed, and he was definitely still hung up on her. in catelyn's it was jon's unknown mother, widely thought to be ashara dayne, simply because she could not understand why ned wanted jon so close if not for love of his mother and he refused to even speak of her. she was right about ned loving jon’s mother “fiercely” yet very wrong about the nature of their relationship, because this ghost was actually also lyanna, the sister ned hardly spoke of, while robert did so all too readily. “life is full of these little ironies”, as tyrion would say. but ned loved his sister in a non-incest way, not the romantic passion cat believed he felt for jon’s mother. it's unknown how far ned ever actually got with ashara dayne, and most likely his wife was the love of his life. 

Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon’s place, as custom decreed, but the shadow of his dead brother still lay between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son. 

[....] Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. -Catelyn II, aGoT

[Cersei, to Jaime:]”My husband grows more restless every day. Having Stark beside him will only make him worse. He's still in love with the sister, the insipid little dead sixteen-year-old. How long till he decides to put me aside for some new Lyanna?" -Bran II, aGoT

both ladies become widows before the end of the first book. cersei had her abuser, robert, killed and felt joy at his death. catelyn played only an indirect role in ned's downfall by convincing him to go south in the first place, yet she still blamed herself because she loved her husband and felt deep grief at his death. 

Ned had the truth of it, she thought. His place was at Winterfell, he said as much, but would I hear him? No. Go, I told him, you must be Robert's Hand, for the good of our House, for the sake of our children . . . my doing, mine, no other . . .

[....] Catelyn had not eaten today. [....] but the truth was that food had lost its savor in a world without Ned. -Catelyn I & IV, aCoK

[Cersei, to Tyrion:]"All we did was help. When Lancel saw that Robert was going after boar, he gave him strongwine. His favorite sour red, but fortified, three times as potent as he was used to. The great stinking fool loved it. He could have stopped swilling it down anytime he cared to, but no, he drained one skin and told Lancel to fetch another. The boar did the rest. You should have been at the feast, Tyrion. There has never been a boar so delicious. They cooked it with mushrooms and apples, and it tasted like triumph." -Tyrion I, aCoK

both ladies' eldest sons became rulers on their fathers’ deaths when they were still boys, and the ladies tried to advise them. ned wanted cat to act in this role at robb's side as soon as he left winterfell because of his trust in her. otoh, robert dreaded the idea of cersei ruling at joffrey's side. cat tried to advise robb without undermining him once they reunited at the start of the war, which did not change until after robb officially came of age at 16 and she freed jaime behind his back. but cersei wanted to rule through her sons and keep all the power she could for herself, while doing little to help prepare her king(s) to rule without her someday, especially after her younger son inherited joff's titles. 

[Ned, to Cat:]"You must govern the north in my stead, while I run Robert's errands. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Robb is fourteen. Soon enough, he will be a man grown. He must learn to rule, and I will not be here for him. Make him part of your councils. He must be ready when his time comes." 

He[Robb] was playing a man's part now, and she would not take that away from him. -Catelyn II & VIII, aGoT

[Robert, to Ned:]"More than once, I have dreamed of giving up the crown. [....] You know what stops me? The thought of Joffrey on the throne, with Cersei standing behind him whispering in his ear." -Eddard VII, aGoT

The rule was hers; Cersei did not mean to give it up until Tommen came of age. -Cersei V, aFfC

both of the said sons were kings by the end of the first book. robb was acclaimed king by his men while joffrey inherited robert's crown, which means catelyn was not a queen like cersei, but she still had prestige and some power in robb's court. in both cases, the sons' new royal powers caused conflict in their relationships with their mothers, though catelyn/robb always had a better and healthier relationship than cersei had with her sons. 

She had told him as much before, but Catelyn was finding that kings do not listen half so attentively as sons. -Catelyn I, aCoK

[Cersei, to Tyrion:]"Joff has had no lack of good counsel. He's always been strong-willed. Now that he's king, he believes he should do as he pleases, not as he's bid." -Tyrion I, aCoK

both mothers were not happy about the idea of their sons in battles, but catelyn accepted the necessity and was proud of robb's victories. cersei did not want her sons in any possible danger, to the detriment of the war effort and royal reputation, threatening tyrion (by proxy) to keep joff out of the front lines, then pulling him out of the battle near the end when it would have been too late to hide from the enemy anyway. later, she refused to even let tommen train to be a knight with his own brother-in-law.

both mothers lost their royal firstborn son at a wedding feast, murdered before their eyes as they were helpless to intervene. robb’s murder was no mystery, but the frey cat killed in revenge was one she knew to be innocent. she’s killed too shortly after, only to rise from the dead and go on a killing spree of freys and other criminals, later progressing to an attempted hanging of brienne and podrick for their mere association with house lannister. joffrey was poisoned, with the true culprit hidden. cersei accused an innocent man (her own brother tyrion) she genuinely believed was the killer, but her efforts to have him killed all failed. afterward, she is responsible for the indiscriminate killing of dwarfs (and at least one child) in her zeal to find tyrion, not caring how many innocent lives are cost in the hunt.

both mothers had a daughter in the custody of their enemies. however, catelyn initially wanted the sansa/joff match and at the time the king was their ally and friend. otoh, the martells had hated the lannisters for years and tyrion betrothed myrcella behind cersei's back. despite the family history, myrcella gets along with her betrothed, but joff revealed his shittiness even before his family was at war with sansa's.

both mothers disapproved of their kingly sons’ betrothal-breaking, though with quite different reasoning. catelyn did not want to risk offending walder frey in an exchange for a bride from a minor enemy house which brought much less men to the war effort, but would have felt differently if the freys were jilted for political/military gain. cersei wanted to keep the betrothal to sansa because she viewed her as less of a threat, despite the obvious facts that the tyrell alliance made better political sense and the lannisters desperately needed the tyrells’ military aid. in spite of her misgivings about robb’s marriage, cat tried to mentor her daughter-in-law as a new queen and newest member of the stark family. otoh, cersei, after abusing sansa as her first prospective daughter-in-law, went on to have her son(s)’ eventual queen framed for treason and arrested, acting out of paranoia and jealousy, no matter her son’s feelings or the importance of the tyrell alliance.

If you had to fall into a woman's arms, my son, why couldn't they have been Margaery Tyrell's? The wealth and power of Highgarden could have made all the difference in the fighting yet to come. And perhaps Grey Wind would have liked the smell of her as well. 

[...]she thought about Jeyne. The girl did seem to have a good heart, just as Robb had said. And good hips, which might be more important. -Catelyn II & III, aSoS

[Tyrion, to the small council:]"It seems to me we should take a lesson from the late Lord Renly. We can win the Tyrell alliance as he did. With a marriage."

[....] "Joffrey is betrothed to Sansa Stark," Cersei objected.

[Tyrion:]"Marriage contracts can be broken. What advantage is there in wedding the king to the daughter of a dead traitor?" -Tyrion VIII, aCoK

[Cersei, to Margaery:]"You wrong me, daughter. All I want—"

[Margaery:]"—is your son, all for yourself. He will never have a wife that you don't hate. And I am not your daughter, thank the gods. [....] I asked for you to leave. Will you make me call my gaolers and have you dragged away, you vile, scheming, evil bitch?" -Cersei X, aFfC

despite her continued hatred of jaime/cersei, catelyn has some understanding for the choice to murder for the sake of one's children. in fact, her last living act is murdering an innocent man out of revenge for robb, "a son for a son". otoh, cersei lacks the awareness and empathy (while having too much internalized misogyny) to identify with catelyn as mothers, even with the most obvious commonality of being wailing widows after their sons suffered violent deaths at wedding celebrations.

If the boy was truly Jaime's seed, Robert would have put him to death along with his mother, and few would have condemned him. [....] Ned must have known, and Lord Arryn before him. Small wonder that the queen had killed them both. Would I do any less for my own? -Catelyn IV, aCoK

Should I scream and tear my hair? They said Catelyn Stark had clawed her own face to bloody ribbons when the Freys slew her precious Robb. -Cersei I, aFfC

catelyn fantasized about killing cersei herself, and about seeing all her enemies dead after bran and rickon's presumed deaths. and cersei fantasized about destroying all her enemies all the time. (but catelyn let jaime go in an attempt to trade for her daughters, while cersei failed to keep ned alive long enough to trade for jaime.) 

[Catelyn, to Brienne]"Every morning, when I wake, I remember that Ned is gone. I have no skill with swords, but that does not mean that I do not dream of riding to King's Landing and wrapping my hands around Cersei Lannister's white throat and squeezing until her face turns black.

[....] I want them all dead, Brienne. Theon Greyjoy first, then Jaime Lannister and Cersei and the Imp, every one, every one. -Catelyn V & VII, aCoK

[While burning the Tower of the Hand on Tommen’s wedding night:]Cersei thought of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. -Cersei III, aFfC

cersei wanted to fight like jaime from an early age, while catelyn “had no love for swords” and only once thought of fighting like the mormonts out of a wish to save her family. (interestingly, cat was the one who killed an enemy in a skirmish and later incapacitated a knight to save brienne, while cersei kills indirectly with her only possible direct kill being a harmless childhood friend.) 

[Cersei, to Sansa:] "Would that I could take a sword to their necks myself. When we were little, Jaime and I were so much alike that even our lord father could not tell us apart. [....] Yet even so, when Jaime was given his first sword, there was none for me. 'What do I get?' I remember asking. -Sansa VI, aCoK

All lost now, she reflected. Winterfell and Ned, Bran and Rickon, Sansa, Arya, all gone. Only Robb remains. Had there been too much of Lynesse Hightower in her after all, and too little of the Starks? Would that I had known how to wield an axe, perhaps I might have been able to protect them better. -Catelyn V, aSoS

both ladies are viewed as cold-hearted by their royal-rebel wards, though, as always, cersei treated her hostage worse. (theon later admits he loved the starks more than he hated any of them, only wanting to be one of them, but sansa went from admiring to loathing cersei.) both ladies later wished these former hostages dead--more specifically wished them to suffer a slow and torturous death as revenge for their sons, though both cases involve misunderstandings of different natures. (theon is a murderer but bran and rickon were not his murder victims, while sansa did play an indirect part in joffrey’s poisoning but it was an unconscious and unintentional part.)

As a boy, he had lived in fear of Stark's stern face and great dark sword. His wife was, if anything, even more distant and suspicious. -Theon I, aCoK

[Cat, to Brienne:]"Bran and Rickon tried to escape, but were taken at a mill on the Acorn Water. Theon Greyjoy has mounted their heads on the walls of Winterfell. Theon Greyjoy, who ate at my table since he was a boy of ten."

[Cat, to Robb]"[...]Your first duty is to defend your own people, win back Winterfell, and hang Theon in a crow's cage to die slowly.[....]” -Catelyn VII, aCoK & II, aSoS

[Sansa, to Olenna:]"Joffrey is a monster. [....] He's evil and cruel, my lady, it's so. And the queen as well." -Sansa I, aSoS

[Cersei, to Pycelle:]"I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss." -Cersei IV, aFfC

both ladies were at one time heiresses to their fathers, catelyn in early childhood before edmure was born, and cersei after tyrion murdered tywin. catelyn was always trusted by her father and was closer to him than edmure was, while cersei knew jaime was tywin's favorite and always resented it. perhaps because of this difference, cat supported edmure even when she didn't have much confidence in him, while cersei seduced jaime to give up his inheritance. 

Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Lord Hoster until Edmure was born. -Catelyn VI, aCoK

[Cersei, to Jaime:]"[....]I could have been the heir he wanted, but I lacked the cock.” -Jaime IX, aSoS

both ladies lost their mothers young due to death in childbirth, and could not imagine their fathers having sex after their mothers’ deaths. though cersei ignores a dead sexual partner right in front of her, while cat accepted the truth of hoster’s actual secret, lysa’s forced abortion.

Father, who was this woman, and what did you do to her that needs so much forgiveness? -Catelyn I, aSoS

[Cersei, to Kevan:]"He[Tywin] loved her[Joanna] very much." Cersei refused to think about the dead whore in his bed.-Cersei II, aFfC

both ladies are confused with their dead mothers by a beloved relative. (jaime does so in the opposite way mistaking his dead mother for his sister in a dream about joanna, but i wouldn't rule out the possibility it was a genuine vision.) 

[Cat, to Brynden, about Hoster:]"[....]Once he called me by Mother's name." 

[Brynden, to Cat:]"[....]You have her face. I can see it in your cheekbones, and your jaw . . . " -Catelyn I, aCoK

“Sister,” he said, “what would you have of me?” [...]

[Dream!Joanna:]“I am not your sister, Jaime.” She raised a pale soft hand and pushed her hood back. “Have you forgotten me?”

Can I forget someone I never knew? The words caught in his throat. He did know her, but it had been so long … -Jaime VII, aFfC

both ladies had an important relationship with a paternal uncle, but in very different ways. for catelyn, this was brynden the blackfish, who never got along with her beloved father, hoster, but that did not keep cat or her siblings from being close to him. uncle brynden was close to all his brother’s offspring, but he and cat seemed especially close, with him saying “the right woman” can rule meaning her (and not lysa), and never criticizing her the way he did edmure after his “folly of the fords”. the blackfish was the only one whose support cat could count on without question after her release of jaime, when she feared even robb’s rejection after edmure had lectured her about it. otoh, uncle kevan was tywin’s most loyal supporter and closest confidant, which seems to only make cersei and her brothers respect him less, thinking him a yes-man with no mind of his own. this leads cersei to take his support for granted after tywin’s death, when kevan made it clear he had no wish to stay in court under cersei’s rule and that his blind love for tywin did not translate to the same feelings towards tywin’s children. when cersei also found herself in isolation due to her ill-thought out choices, under arrest by the faith militant, kevan again refused to support her and actually agreed with the walk of shame she was forced to endure.

It was the moment she had dreamt of and dreaded. Have I lost two sons, or three? She would know soon enough.

The hall was crowded when they entered. Every eye was on the dais, but Catelyn knew their backs: [....]  . . . Half of them will want to hang me now. The other half may only turn their eyes away. [...]

The sight of Ser Brynden Tully's craggy face on the dais gave her comfort. [...] Her uncle was the first to greet her. As black a fish as ever, Ser Brynden had no care for what others might think. He leapt off the dais and pulled Catelyn into his arms. -Catelyn II, aSoS

Cersei was soiled goods now, her power at an end. Every baker's boy and beggar in the city had seen her in her shame and every tart and tanner from Flea Bottom to Pisswater Bend had gazed upon her nakedness, their eager eyes crawling over her breasts and belly and woman's parts. [....] "My niece will make no further mischief," he promised Mace Tyrell. "You have my word on that, my lord."

[...]His niece had been subdued and submissive since her walk of atonement, thank the gods. [....] She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs.

[...]"It had to be," Ser Kevan muttered over the last of his wine. His High Holiness had to be appeased. Tommen needed the Faith behind him in the battles to come. And Cersei ... the golden child had grown into a vain, foolish, greedy woman. -Epilogue (Kevan), aDwD

both ladies are part of grrm’s motif of traumatic haircuts or fear of haircut transformation in their different ways. when catelyn was killed at the red wedding, she had already decided she did not care if they killed her (”ned was waiting”) but was alarmed when a frey came for her with a knife, thinking he meant to cut her hair (”ned loves my hair”). but cersei had to sacrifice her hair to help save her, enduring a nude walk of atonetonement from the sept back to the red keep to meet her intended champion in her upcoming trial by combat, an ordeal which starts with all of her hair being forcibly cut and shaved as cersei reminded herself that she was still the queen and a lion, and that hair grows back.

both ladies can be said to follow their father's political examples. cersei does so quite deliberately in both power/control and general shittiness, hoping to even outshine tywin. while cat follows her father's footsteps in matchmaking and diplomacy (trying to mediate between stannis/renly as her father mediated the blackwood/bracken disputes) to advance the family cause, without thinking of emulating him. likewise, catelyn thinks of the (positive) similarity with ned while accepting brienne's loyalty, and by contrast, cersei unknowingly takes after her husband (negatively) with alcoholism, abuse, and irresponsible rulership.

related to the above, catelyn's classism and sense of propriety, displayed in her attitude to jon snow, was surely learned from hoster, given his reaction to lysa's first pregnancy. just as all of cersei's even deeper prejudices, from classism to ableism to misogyny, came straight from tywin.

related to the above, as much a jon snow & tyrion parallel as a cat/cersei one, both ladies have a moment of letting themselves be vulnerable in front of their despised family member (or more accurately, relative of her husband and children, wrt jon/catelyn), catelyn in her vigil during bran’s coma, cersei during their confrontation about myrcella’s betrothal after tyrion reminded her that all of her children faced death by stannis staying in the red keep. then each lady reverted to expected form to harshly reject the sympathy of the witness when the resented outcast tried to offer them comfort. 

“I wanted him to stay here with me,” Lady Stark said softly. [...] “I prayed for it,” she said dully. “He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the seven faces of god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me. Sometimes prayers are answered.”

Jon did not know what to say. “It wasn’t your fault,” he managed after an awkward silence.

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. “I need none of your absolution, bastard.” -Jon II, aGoT

And Cersei began to cry. [...] Awkwardly, he took a step toward her. When your sister cries, you were supposed to comfort her … but this was Cersei! He reached a tentative hand for her shoulder.

“Don’t touch me,” she said, wrenching away. It should not have hurt, yet it did, more than any slap. Red-faced, as angry as she was grief-stricken, Cersei struggled for breath. “Don’t look at me, not … not like this … not you.” -Tyrion V, aCoK

oh, and how could i forget? both ladies falsely accused tyrion of trying to murder their son, and in both cases tyrion had been framed by littlefinger. catelyn came to have doubts after talking to tyrion and tried to keep him safe and alive once they joined lysa and she took control. cersei’s belief in tyrion’s guilt never wavered and she tried several different ways to have him killed.

[jackoshadows]

@agirlisnoonesdoppelganger

People cannot act like Sansa is choosing to be that way when to her, that’s the only way a lady should be. That’s not choosing; that’s just existing and then being confused and upset when not everyone wants to exist the same way you do.

I get your point. And yes this is true to a certain extent.

This is why I think Sansa is a follower and not a leader. Sansa always accepts the way things are instead of questioning if it should be that way and that has been a consistent character trait for her all the way to book 4.

This is why, despite straight up seeing, right in front of her how terrible Joffrey is as a person - something that Jon, Robb and Arya see right through in like the third chapter of the story - Sansa is shocked at the events that start with Ned's execution.

According to Sansa, Joffrey is beautiful and a prince and therefore Joffrey is good. In her mind it must be Arya who is evil because Arya is different. This is more than just taking dance lessons because everyone is taking dance lessions. This is a character flaw in Sansa that she can only see things one dimensionally.

Sansa is not a critical thinker, she does not think outside the box. So when her mother and her teacher tell her this is the only way a lady should be, she accepts it happily because she excels in it.

However, Sansa also grew up in the harsh North, not the south. Her mother and Septa were Southron who moved to the North. She's the daughter of Ned 'Winter is Coming' Stark. She grew up on Old Nan's stories.

Did Sansa not hear of Lady Maege Mormont or her daughters? Surely she would have seen them when they arrived for the Harvest feast.

Was not her great grandmother a Flint of the Mountain clans? Did she not have an aunt Lyanna Stark, who, according to the stories of the Winterfell workers, was a great horse rider?

So it's not that Sansa does not know that there are other types of Ladies around in the North, it's just that she follows what her mother and Septa have told her is the only right way to be a Southron Lady, and does not question it.

For example, Arya has learned the same things that Sansa has and yet:

Arya cocked her head to one side. “Can I be a king’s councillor and build castles and become the High Septon?” “You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.” Arya screwed up her face. “No,” she said, “that’s Sansa.” She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there.” - Eddard, AGoT

With Arya specifically, the issue for her is the lack of family acceptance and support - she wants her mother's love and acceptance and sees it as conditional if only she becomes like Sansa. For her it's not about being any specific way to gain acceptance into society or for having a good marriage. For nine year old Arya it is basically "My mother would love me if I was like Sansa".

And we know this relationship between Arya and Cat is complicated because Sansa thinks of Arya as 'wicked' and even base born and surely that stems from the way both Cat and the Septa treat Arya.

This is also where Arya's bond with Jon comes into play because Jon Snow is the only relative who accepts and loves her as is, the only person who is like 'I love who you are, never change!'

So yes, I agree to a certain extent that Sansa had no choice given her mother and the Septa teaching her that there was only one right way for being a proper Southron lady. However, I also think a character with curiosity, who questions instead of blindly following, who thinks 'What if', who sees others being different and wonders - all of that is also possible.

After all how did we evolve as a society if it were not for people at every point of time in every century going 'what if' and embracing change and reform?

Sansa, Arya, and the Issues of Choice Feminism and Conformity

There's a lot of discourse surrounding Sansa and Arya, and I'm aware I may being stepping on a hornet's nest with this one, but oh, well. I've seen many of the discussions/arguments, and I think a level of disconnect comes from how people practice feminism. In particular, the idea of choice feminism feels like it's permeating the discussions even if it isn't brought up directly. Funnily enough, Sansa and Arya actually present the perfect opportunity to examine the issues with choice feminism while also examining the attitudes behind both the characters and the people who defend them.

Some of you may be wondering, what is choice feminism? Simply put, it's the idea that the individual choices of women/girls are inherently feminist. Now this idea often gets a lot of criticism since it tends to ignore the very real systemic, societal problems that affect and influence women. That is to say, our choices don't exist in a vacuum. The choices that we make are always influenced by outside forces and pressures that may make us feel like we have to make certain choices. Many proponents of choice feminism will argue that they enjoy things like doing their makeup or being a a stay-at-home mom which is fine. However, they never seem to ask whether they would make the same choice had they felt completely free and able to. I'm not saying you can't have fun with makeup or feel fulfilled being a mom, but these are choices that society expects women to make. Even if you nominally have other options, you are still expected to conform to a certain ideal or risk being mocked or ostracized. And I think a lot of women are looking at these choices with hindsight. You enjoy the thing now, but would the younger you who hadn't made that choice yet really have made the same choice if they felt completely safe choosing something else? The unfortunate reality is that under a patriarchal society, many choices that women make are colored by systemic pressure.

So how does this relate to the Stark sisters? Let's start with Sansa. Sansa is a character that is well loved by many women who tend to enjoy more feminine/girly things, and it's easy to see why. Sansa herself enjoys very feminine activities and is quite good at being a lady of noble birth. This is, of course, where the real issue lies. In the Sansa/Arya discourse, there often seems to be some issue with Arya's dislike for typically ladylike things. Many people seem to think that Sansa should be allowed to enjoy whatever activities she wants. Who cares if they happen to be the ones that are expected of her? And that's the problem. Sansa may enjoy those activities, but not because she chose them herself. These are things that all highborn ladies are expected to do, and Sansa was made to do these activities as soon as she was old enough. Now, Sansa happens to be quite good at them and receives a lot of praise for her talents, so unsurprisingly, she enjoys these activities. Most children would probably feel the same way. However, she didn't choose to enjoy these activities, which is something I think many of her most ardent defenders are missing. They never ask the question "Would Sansa, free of all expectations, encouraged to pursue any activity of her choosing no matter how 'feminine' or 'masculine', still willingly choose to be the same Sansa we see in the books?" The truth is, we can't know because Sansa is a fictional character who is shaped by the world she exists in. Sansa is fortunate to fit quite easily into the box Westeros expects her to and so never questions it.

Arya, on the other hand, struggles to conform to the strict standards that Westeros has set for her. She's constantly told, not just by society, but by the people in her life, that she does not fit what a highborn lady is supposed to be. When she does engage in the activities expected of her, rather than receiving support to help her improve, she is met with derision and comparisons to her better, perfect sister. It's no wonder, then, that Arya finds little enjoyment in these activities and actively tries to push against the box she's being forced into. Like many young girls who realize they don't fit entirely with the standards of femininity that society expects of them, Arya fights back and asks "if not everyone can fit in the box, why are you trying to make them?" What's interesting is that Arya struggles with her femininity, not because she doesn't like being a girl or being feminine, but because she actually does like those things. She hates being referred to as a boy, she likes to pick flowers, she enjoys songs, she even seems to wish to be perceived as beautiful. Arya wants to be able to engage in femininity, but because she doesn't neatly fit the societal standards of Westeros, she struggles to do so. Arya also doesn't have a particularly strong desire to engage in a specific masculine activity, like being a knight, as some people claim. This is brought up in a conversation with Ned where she offers up several options, like being the lady of her own house (not married) or becoming maester. Ned refutes her questions by offering the only option available to her: marry a lord and have his children. Arya isn't expressing a specific desire; she's expressing her wish for options. Arya wants to have a choice, wants to be able to decide her own future, and she doesn't understand why she can't. Arya isn't necessarily opposed to the idea of marriage wholesale; she's opposed to the idea because she has to do it whether she wants to or not. Thus, we must ask sort of the opposite of the question we asked with Sansa. Would Arya, free of societal pressure and encouraged to pursue any thing of her choosing, still feel such dislike for the typical ladylike activities, or would she willingly choose to participate in some of them?

Now we have to look at both of them together and how they interact. As previously mentioned, it seems to me that many people who strongly defend/identify with Sansa feel like Arya's distaste for certain activities is judgemental and pointed. I personally disagree with this, and I don't think Sansa's pov chapters support this idea. Sansa is generally displeased that Arya doesn't like those activities, but she never seems personally offended or acts like she feels that Arya is judging her. Rather, she is annoyed that Arya won't conform and even more annoyed that the adults around her aren't doing enough about it. Sansa is sometimes embarrassed by Arya, not because Arya has insulted her or made her feel judged, but because Sansa fears other people will judge her for her sister's lack of conformity. This is not Arya's fault; it is the fault of society for putting expectations on these young girls. Again, Sansa is lucky enough to meet the standards easily, so she never needs to put any work in to conform, whereas Arya has always struggled and would be forced to change to fit in. And Sansa wants Arya to change. She looks down on Arya for her "wild" behaviors, thinks Ned should be doing more to correct Arya, and fundamentally seems to dislike Arya the way she is. Sansa doesn't examine the restrictive standards of Westeros because she doesn't need to. When people defend Sansa even to the point of saying that Arya does need to change, they are continuing to uphold restrictive, patriarchal standards of what it means to be a woman. They, like Sansa, are blaming Arya for the poor treatment she receives instead of blaming a system that allows for only one type of woman to exist.

HOTD demonstrates this, too, with Alicent and Rhaenyra. The root of Alicent's anger and problems with Rhaenyra is not Rhaenyra's children or Alicent's fears for her own or even Alicent's feelings of abandonment. Alicent holds so much anger for Rhaenyra because Rhaenyra dares to defy the gender roles that have been forced upon them, that Alicent has spent so much of her life upholding. Rhaenyra dares to believe that she is worthy of power and respect just by virtue of existing, while Alicent goes along with her supposed duty with the expectation that she will be rewarded, only to realize that she keeps getting nothing. So she gets angry and hates Rhaenyra because she can't bring herself to hate the men who are really responsible. If she hates them, blames them, then she finally has to reckon with the fact that all her suffering, all her duty was pointless.

Sansa and Arya present a very interesting dichotomy and looking at their relationship allows us to examine how certain perspectives, while nominally helpful, can be harmful. The idea that women who conform are somehow more judged than women who go against standards is one that has persisted, from NLOGs to pick-mes, and one that I have a lot of problems with. At the end of the day, I find it hard to agree that doing what society expects of you is particularly revolutionary and ignoring the way society may have influenced those decisions hardly helps. Often, these ideas tend to hurt all women, even the ones who fit in. We can see this in Sansa and Arya and how conformity and supposed choice affect both of them. Arya cannot be who she wants to be, cannot engage in her femininity in way that feels authentic to her, and is blamed for her own ostracization by others. Sansa is built from the societal expectations around her, and though she benefits from conforming, her potential is lost because she was never given an opportunity to truly choose what she wanted to be. Both are trapped by the patriarchal expectations of Westeros, but while Sansa's conformity renders her blind to it, Arya's rebellion makes it all too visible to her.

[sigilsongs-a]

(``) muse tags. JON

(``) jon snow . (tag)

[jackoshadows]

There’s just so much we don’t know about Robert’s Rebellion and those characters that GRRM intended to reveal in ASoIaF. That unfortunately we will most probably never get to read.

SSM, July 29, 2012

Arthur Dayne has been presented as the  quintessential chivalrous knight. How could he support the atrocities of  Aerys, that even Jaime was horrified by?

Well... keep reading.

Will we learn more about Rhaegar in the next  book? Why did he take almost a year to join the fight against the  rebels, or why did he kidnap Lyanna?

You will learn more, but I can't promise it'll be in the next book. Keep reading.

SSM, January 02, 2002

I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this ;)However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.

I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was  in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are  not always literal.

SSM, August 27, 2000

Second, when Ned Stark and Howland Reed returned  North from Dorne after the events at the Tower of Joy, etc. were they  completely alone during that journey, or were they accompanied by some  household guards, etc. for security?

You'll likely learn more about Ned's homecoming in future books. It's  a long way from Dorne to Winterfell, a journey of months. More than  that I'd rather not reveal just now.

Am I reading things between the lines that aren't  really there, but was Rhaegar and Aerys' relationship not all that it  could be?

There were definitely tensions between father and son. More will be revealed in future books.

SSM, July 11, 1999

I will spare you the rest of my speculations about the date of Jon's birth, since their only real conclusion is that Catelyn seems a little thick when she thinks that Ned fathered Jon as he returned 'Dawn' to Ashara Dayne.

As to your speculations about Catelyn and Ashara Dayne... sigh... needless to say, All Will Be Revealed in Good Time. I will give you this much, however; Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor in Starfall, as some of the  fans who write me seem to assume. They have horses in Dorne too, you  know. And boats (though not many of their own). As a matter of fact (a  tiny tidbit from SOS), she was one of Princess Elia's lady companions in  King's Landing, in the first few years after Elia married Rhaegar.

The rest I will save for the books.

SSM, April 19, 2008

Will we learn more concerning Lyanna and Harrenhal?

Yes, you'll hear more about Lyanna and Harrenhal.

[goodqueenaly]

After the long night ends and Jon (possibly) dies for good. Will everyone throughout Westeros know that Jon is not the son of Ned, or will most people still think that Jon is his bastard?

Do I think there will be multiple characters in-universe who may very well survive the looming apocalyptic crisis and will likely learn that Jon was the biological son of Rhaegar Targaryen (and Lyanna Stark)? Yes, I think that’s almost certainly going to be the case. It is perhaps no coincidence that two of the people who were made aware of Robb’s will regarding Jon - that is, Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover - are also currently with Howland Reed, one of the few people alive who were all but definitely present for Jon’s birth at the tower of joy. With the Stark children I think set to convene at Winterfell, and various factions in favor of their respective claims with them, I very much anticipate that the bombshell news regarding Jon’s biological paternity will come up as the dynastic question of House Stark’s leadership is debated. Too, Dany’s prophesied, metaphorical vision of Jon - the blue rose blooming at the Wall - connects him with Lyanna, and by extension Rhaegar. If, and I think when, Jon rides a dragon, his Targaryen heritage may seem confirmed (which is not to say dragonriding necessitates Targaryen parentage - as indeed I think will be the case with the draconically scholastic Tyrion). (And this is without any knowledge to be potentially conveyed by either Benjen, notably not confirmed as dead and almost certainly aware to some extent of the relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna, or Wylla/any other individuals at Starfall, where I think extremely likely Gerold Dayne, and by extension Areo Hotah, are headed.)

Do I think that “everyone throughout Westeros [will] know” that Jon’s biological father was Rhaegar Targaryen? I’m not sure what “everyone throughout Westeros” will even understand about the eventual defeat of the Others generally, much less be aware of the specifics regarding those responsible for this defeat. One idea GRRM has returned to again and again throughout ASOIAF is a story whose particulars are exaggerated, twisted, and/or lost through the passage of space and/or time: think of, to give just a few examples, the news of Oxcross reaching King’s Landing with a lycanthropic element added, or the confused rumors of Dany’s dragons serving as a conversation piece for the Citadel’s students, or the myth of Hukko the Pentoshi hero perhaps stemming from a corruption of the Andalish religious figure Hugor. To whatever extent the rest of Westeros becomes aware of the defeat of the Others - and I think that the final showdown against the Others will happen at Winterfell, relatively far from much of Westeros - it’s entirely possible that Jon’s biological parentage gets lost in the shuffle of translating the story to other peoples and regions. Was the dragonriding hero who bravely sacrificed himself to rid the world of demonic supernatural slavers Jon Snow, the bastard son of Lord Eddard, or Jon Stark, legitimized/legitimate brother of the Young Wolf (and perhaps would-be King in the North in his own right), or Jon, son of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, or even a figure with another supposed backstory completely? The truth may become obscured as distance, physical and chronological, passes from both the large (or larger) scale revelation of Jon’s biological parentage and the ultimate defeat of the Others.

Also, I have to say it - Jon not being the biological child of Eddard Stark does not at all erase the fact that Jon was (and is) very much Ned’s son. Where Tywin did everything possible to hurt, humiliate, and demean his biological son Tyrion, Ned did everything possible to embrace a boy he knew was not his biological son; Ned was willing to go above and beyond social expectations, even permanently sacrificing some part of his relationship with the wife he loved, to hold out Jon as his son. Consequently, it’s Ned Jon looks to as his father and paternal example; even if Jon eventually learns that half of his DNA came from Rhaegar (and I think he will), I don’t think that knowledge will replace the love Ned and Jon had (and the latter has) for one another.

[madamebaggio]

Part 1, Part 2

***

“I have information on the Starks. The other ones.” Natasha added when she saw Tony’s pout. He wasn’t happy about not being the only famous Stark out there.

“What do you have?” Steve wanted to know.

“Some things were easy to find.” Natasha said as she sat down. “For others, I had to dig into interesting places.”

“Continue.” Bucky asked.

“The official the story is…” She paused dramatically and opened a file. “The Starks are an old family with very old money. Those types of people that can trace their lineage to a distant relative that used to play chess with the King of England. They were loyal the Crown for ages, and fought many wars for it.” She passed the folder to Tony, who was closer. “Their state is called Winterfell and has belonged to the family for generations. Now, they used to be rich just because they were, and had safe business ventures. They had been fighting wars for a long time, but that was it.”

“What changed?” Steve questioned.

“The father of those three, Eddard Stark, was in the middle of that Parliamentary Coup that happened a few decades ago in England.”

Bucky cleared his throat. “He wasn’t the only one.”

Yes, they now knew that HYDRA had helped along with the whole debacle that happened, and almost caused a civil war in the UK.

“Yes, but Eddard Stark was by all accounts, the most honorable man who’d ever lived.” Natasha pointed out. “The man was considered a saint, you won’t find a single person willing to talk badly about him. He was the one that started Winterfell Industries, focused on…”

“Weapons.” Tony completed.

“Yes. They started getting big, but big among certain crowds.”

“That’s why I never heard about them.” Tony guessed.

“Yes. They had an amazingly strict clientele.”

“But something went wrong.” Bucky guessed.

“We can’t keep our eyes in the whole world.” Nat indicated. “And we keep busy around here, but in England things got ugly with a powerful family, the Lannisters.”

“The former Prime Minister’s family?” Steve guessed, because he was sure he’d heard the name before.

“Exactly. Recently it became public knowledge that they had a close relationship with HYDRA and a lot of what the Starks created, went there.”

“So what happened?” Tony pressed.

“Eddard tried to confront the Lannisters, it didn’t go well.” Natasha sighed. “He was executed, his daughters went missing, his wife started a campaign for justice… It was a whole mess. His oldest son, Robb, went into politics and he lost his pregnant wife for his efforts. There was an ambush, he survived by a miracle, his wife and mother didn’t.”

“Holy fuck.” Tony let out a breath.

“And the daughters?” Bucky asked.

“Sansa Stark was basically a hostage for the Lannisters. She disappeared for years, and would only be seen occasionally. At some point she went to live with her aunt, who died under suspicious means. Two years after that, she took the company back with the help of her cousin Jon and her brother.”

“Took back?” Bucky arched an eyebrow.

“By force.” Natasha nodded. “As soon as she’s back in power the company started growing more and more. The girl is a business genius; she has no formal education, but she can scent a deal from miles.”

“What about the cousin and the sister?” Those two were the ones Steve was concerned about.

“Jon Snow went into the military, and became Black Ops quite fast. He’s a talented soldier and an even better strategist. Some people say he’s unkillable.”

Bucky snorted. “No such thing.”

“He’s a trained soldier. The interesting one, is the sister.” Natasha continued. “Arya Stark disappeared for many years. Enough that people thought she was really dead. Three years ago she shows up out of nowhere.”

“Where was she?” Tony asked.

“Everywhere. She was trained by people some agencies never heard about and some we wish we hadn’t.” Natasha leaned back against the chair. “She’s the most dangerous of them all.”

Steve sighed. “Now what?”

“Keep your friends close and all that jazz.” Tony offered. “We should keep an eye on them.”

“We don’t know if they’re enemies.” Steve indicated.

Tony scoffed. “Do you wanna wait to find out?”

He looked at the picture of Sansa Stark that was closer, then traded a look with Bucky.

No, he didn’t want to wait to find out.

***

Notes: This got really long, really fast...

Let me know your feelings.

[templarhalo]

Templarhalo rambles about the House Stark family tree

@empressofmankind @goodqueenaly @xenowlsome @effdragonkiller @aegor-bamfsteel @turtle-paced 

Cregan Stark’s Grandmother and Rickard’s mothers were both of House Locke  We know the Lockes once ruled the Wolf’s Den for a time, and their location  would have put them in striking distance of the Three Sisters and the Vale.  For a House we know so little about having two Locke’s marry into House Stark and have the children be the next Lords of Winterfell is quite interesting.

I wonder which house the daughters of Black Aly and Cregan married into?  Also I wonder if House Bracken was one of them to help reconcile the Black and Greens

Did Eddard name Sansa after the daughter of Cregan’s son Rickon?   This Sansa married her Uncle Jonell One Eye Stark.  GRRM says there were no ruling Ladies of Winterfell or Queens in the North in their own right(Which I think is complete and utter bullshit given how long  House Starks been around. )  Did Sasna hate Cregan for arranging this marriage? Or was she in love with her Uncle?  Given how bypassing the Andal-Firstmen rule of succession screwed over House Targ  and lead to two bloody civil wars. one of which Cregan had fought in, I wonder why he arranged for Jonnel to succeed Rickon  rather than let Sansa rule in her own right.

Sansa’s sister Serena married a Jon Umber but had no children,  but one of her daughters with Jonnel’s brother Edric  married an Umber and had issue.   There’s no mention of Jon Umber being Lord of Last Hearth, but if Osric Umber, who wed Serena’s daughter Aranna was, that would be interesting. Especially if Serena’s marriage to Jon was to make a half-Stark the next Lord of Last Hearth.   In addition Arrana’s sister Aregelle married a Robywn Cerwyn.  If he was the next Lord of Cerwyn that would mean There would be two Half Starks ruling two seats in the North, one on Winterfell’s doorstep and one near the Wall. 

I wonder how Barthogen Stark got the name Blacksword? And why the Skagosi rebelled?   Also I wonder how his older brother Edric felt about being passed over for Lord of Winterfell, despite being married to  a Stark in her own right.and having his own kids.

Brandon Stark has a bastard son with Wylla Fenn, a Crannogwoman.  I’m curious as to he circumstanced behind his conception.  Did Brandon ina situation with her like Brandon Stark and Bethany Ryswel?  Were Wylla and Brandon’s marriages both loveless and they took solace in each other?  Was Lonnel raised at Winterfell like Jon Snow was?  

Brandon’s son Rodwell married Myrrine Manderly but died without issue, What is it with Lords of Winterfell dying without issue? 

Rodwell’s brother and successor  Beron married Lady Lorra Royce (Main branch not the Gates of the Moon one) and had  seven kids with her.   Beron’s death against the Ironborn started a succession crisis amongst House Stark, which GRRM said he plans to cover in a Dunk and Egg title with the working title the She Wolves of Winterfell

Beron made an alliance with Casterly Rock to fight off the Greyjoys.  I wonder if this alliance had a marriage pact?  Beron’s sister Arsa is listed as unwed, and has no issue as are Beron’s daughters Alysanne and  Berrena,  The Lord of CR at the time would have been Gerold the Golden, who married Rohanne Webber. Perhaps  Tion Lannsiter was betrothed to one of Beron’s daughters but had to break it to marry Ellyn Reyne? Maybe after Rohanne disappeared in 230 and if Arsa was still alive and unwed she made have been wed to Gerold? 

I’m curious as to the exact circumstances behind this succession crisis.   Unlike his brother Rodwell Beron had seven kids, Five of them sons and two daughters. Were descendants of his ancestor Serena Stark and passed over Edric’s two sons Cregard and Torrhen making the argument they had the better claim legally? (Which they did as Sansa 1.0 died without issue but the next Lord of Wintefell was Barthogen, not Cregard So did Cregard and Torrhen die without issue? Either way, I'm looking forward to how  GRRM covers this interesting period of Stark History. 

 Donner son of Beron died without issue passing rule of the North to his brother William who is Rickard Stark’s Grandfather

Timeline note for fans of Old Nan and fanfic writers. The Brandon Stark that died at 3 years old that  she came to nurse for is the son of William Stark, who died in 226 AC at the Battle of Long Lake  during the reign of Egg’s dad Maekar.  Maekar is Dany’s Great Great Grandpa.  

William married a Blackwood.  This is the second Blackwood marriage on the family tree, wonder how those two met

Rickard’s Aunt Jocelyn married an unknown Royce of the Gates of the Moon.   It’s her descendants Catelyn mentions could inherit Winterfell after Robb if he died without issue 

 I wonder if any of these descendants of Jocelyn  were made aware of their potential claim.   Maybe they married the descendants of Artos Stark  or his siblings Berena, Alysane and Errold if those three had any children of their own 

Rodrik “The Wandering Wolf” Stark, the youngest brother of Willaim Stark married Arya Flint of the Mountain Clans. (The First Flints)  They had two children,  Lyarra, the Starklings Grandma and Branda, who married a Rogers.  The Rogers are a Stormlands house so I wonder what the politics and or circumstances behind that marriage given that she could have easily married into  a Mountain Clan or another vassal house of House Stark,  Especially since his brother married a Blackwood, and his niece married a Royce.   GRRM is very deliberate in his choices for worldbuilding so I wonder if this is something that will come up in future books  . (  For example he could have made Tywin’s wife a distant cousin from the Lannisters of Lannisport but choose to make her his direct cousin.)  

I wonder if Ned named Arya after his grandmother.  Was Ned the favorite Grandson before Rickard shipped him off to the Vale?

 Eddard’s dad Rickard most likely married Lyarra Stark,  daughter of his Grandfather’s Brother Rodrik to tie up claims to Winterfell.  I wonder if  Tywin took note of his older colleagues choice of marriage when considering who he would marry?  

       Additional notes

       Again GRRM seems to have a boner for Lords of Winterfell dying without issue and ruling of the North passing to a brother. This makes the family tree quite a mess,    And you thought House Targaryen’s family tree was bad

I feel like Brandon Stark’s bastard Lonny Snow has some role to play in a Dunk and Egg tale. He’s on the family tree for a reason

Cregan’s first wife was a Norrey of the Mountain Clans.  Were the Norreys hoping to use their martial ties to their feudal overlords to try to depose House Wull as most powerful of the Mountain Clans?

No Bolton marriages, kinda surprised and kind of not.  Be interesting if there was though  

The Brandon Stark who died at 3 year’s old’s  mother was a Glover.

No Crannogmen marriages either.   I wonder why GRRM didn’t squeeze a marriage to House Reed in.

House Stark defiantly has had a lot of periods of instability and teetering in the edge of extinction.  A lot of relatives on the tree feel like their there to take up space and die so the Staklings have no cousins or distant relatives to inherit.    This instability is perhaps the reason the Starks don’t posses any Cadet Branches like the Lannisters, Arryns Harlaws, Goodbrothers Royces and Farwynds. 

On the subject of William Stark marrying a Blackwood, I wonder if he was betrothed to  Artos’ wife Lysara  Karstark but broke it to wed Lyanna Glover or Melantha Blackwood?

Was Jocelyn’s marriage to Royce of the Gates of the Moon a love match?  Her maternal grandmother was a Royce of Runestone, so I’m surprised Willaim didn't try and marry her into the main branch,the heir of Runestone  or another Great House.  She’s his only daughter, wouldn't he hand be wasted on son of a cadet branch’s who do not even possess a formal seat that can be inherited?  Perhaps William was playing a long game, trying to  get Jocelyns’s kids wed into House Arryn or its cadet branch at Gulltown?  Or maybe a Sunderland considering the Three Sisters strategic importance if the Vale of Arryn and Winterfell went to  war again?