#48hr orc lockdown

[gaudebo]

i see youre a fan of orcs and as a fellow fan of orcs that just realized theyre usually depicted problematically, im here to ask you how you like to see orcs? i have a dnd-ish story with a friend and my character is an orc and i realized i was feeding a little bit into the harmful stereotypes and issues with orcs and i want to change that but wasn't sure of ideas and i just wanted to hear what you have to say on the topic of orcs in general or with this topic in mind, but only if you want to!

First of all I am genuinely delighted to receive this ask!! I love talking about orcs so much and the fact that I have a reputation as an orc enthusiast is delightful!

I’ve already written a whole post abt orc Lore and how I think it can be improved upon here but if you’re looking for more general character advice I can do that too!

The biggest thing is that an orc should be a character like any other. Your orc should have more depth than Big, Dumb, and Angry. You have so many options at your disposal especially in a DND-esque setting! Don’t get so caught up in the stereotypical idea of what an orc is that you forget to have fun! You could have a bookworm wizard orc or a quiet, mysterious ranger orc, or any other kind of character you could make as a human or an elf! The world is your oyster. orcster. (We’ll workshop that one.)

That’s not even to say that you can’t make a Big Dumb Angry orc but in that case: how do they feel about interacting with others? What problems does their anger cause them? Do they ever feel hampered by their tendency to solve problems with violence? And also: what makes them so angry? If the answer is “something innate to them makes them violent” then you have a problem. But if it’s something like “a terrible tragedy struck and since that time they push everyone away so they don’t get hurt again” that’s a story! You can use that for depth and flavor!

Plus: you can use the character’s experience as an orc for even more characterization. If you have a bookworm-y orc, how do they feel about everyone expecting them to be stupid? Do they have to work harder than their colleagues to make up for the stigma? For a stereotypically angry and dumb orc, does it hurt to know that that’s all anyone ever thinks they could be? Do they feel pressured into that role by society? Do they have another choice?

Basically: orcs are characters to love and cherish like any other. The biggest problem with the negative portrayals of orcs is that so often they’re designed as enemies that a PC can slaughter without guilt. They’re hostile and stupid and unlovable so you don’t have to feel bad about killing them. Unfortunately, that ties back into orcs as an amalgamation of the most negative stereotypes about people of color. The same justification has been used to commit atrocities against real people in real life! But I digress.

Your orc should be a person! They should have family and friends, and if they don't, there should be an established in-character reason. They should have wants and desires and dreams and flaws! They should be more than a 2-dimensional caricature. If you keep that in mind, it will be a lot easier to avoid playing into the harmful stereotypes because they are designed to diminish the Personhood of orcs in universe!

Thank you so much for asking me for my opinion because I love to share it! I hope you have fun reworking your character! Feel free to come back anytime :]

[gaudebo]

Thank you for your answer about orcs! I've loved orcs since I played skyrim, and they've just always been fascinating. I've never seen them as just angry and violent or savages or anything like that. My character was an orc who grew up in an orc village that was burnt down by someone with magic powers and he lost his family. because of this he trained hard to protect himself and joined a group of people who basically housed a bunch of people and had people come to temporarily buy bodyguard/fighter services from people. these people treated him well but they still overall had some say over him and whenever someone paid for his services it was basically a contract that said he had to do anything they said (within limits !!).

the idea itself felt iffy but I wanted to make sure it was obvious that my character and all the other people are there by choice and for the most part enjoy what they do, and the only services bought are adventuring services or knowle services and stuff and everyone kinda has their own "contract" but then it begs the question of why zero would have his contract basically say he has to do what someone else says. (The whole thing is very poorly thought out and I'll probably scrap the whole buying services thing and change his story completely )

so he has a hard time sometimes letting himself make decisions, so when he meets the other character and this character is very much like "dude I bought your help but I want you to just. be you." It kinda shakes up his world. ans even when the contract 'ends' my friends character still wants him around so he stays.

his story was kinda gonna be about growing and letting himself make decisions for himself but in general I wasn't sure how that storyline would seem since I realized the racism present in orc stories and wasn't sure if I was feeding into anything with it.

I also had him fairly violent but not for no reason? like if some of his party members were threatene or hurt he'd immediately be a "fight ask questions later" kind of guy but he's not as trigger happy as my friends character anyway.

I had him very monotone, he doesn't talk much, he's not dumb but he talks in very simple sentences not because he CAN'T say more but because he doesn't WANT to and he's very serious a lot and wants to convey things simply.

I have that he meets two guys who are alre dating, ithink we added angels and demons just to fit in my characters but I'm not sure so if not he's just an elf, and they all fall in love or something but again not very thought out.

I just love orcs and I didn't realize people were still leaning into the "orcs are bad evil things that just want o kill and are dumb" thing, like I thought most people had all collectively decided "oh they're just. big guys. that are sometimes grumpy sometimes soft. theyre just. big guys that are green and have tusks and like 'orc' things more often than not"

I'm gonna give myself an emoji because I feel like I might end up talking about orcs with you a lot of that's okay lol - ✨

Hi again and welcome back! I'm glad the first answer was helpful! This will probably get very long once again so the rest is below the cut!

I would definitely say reworking the buying and selling of services thing would be a good idea! It's the sort of thing that would rub me the wrong way if I were to be reading this. I like the general idea of there being a guild (or something) that he's joined (willingly), but maybe instead of someone Buying his services people submit jobs to the group that he can choose to join? And instead of "he has to do everything they say" more like "he has to do everything he can to complete the job." That way he is still a bit stuck in the situation because if he doesn't complete the job he doesn't get paid, but without the slavery undertones.

The biggest thing for me would be keeping them on even footing! The Other Guy (OG) hired Your Character (YC) for a reason. OG needs help that YC can provide. Maybe part of their relationship development is that OG relies on YC in a way that he hasn't experienced before! Where OG needs him to make decisions bc he doesn't have the experience/physical strength/etc. to do it on his own. That changes the narrative from OG letting him make choices to YC being put into a situation where his input is necessary and valuable. Makes things a bit less White Savior-ish if you know what I mean? (Not that I know OG is white of course, just with the POC-coding of orcs it could definitely read that way from the outside!)

The concept of him ending up on a job with someone who eventually helps him Open His Heart again is not inherently a bad one! There can still be moments of heartfelt connection especially the "I just want you to be you" moment bc that sounds very sweet! It could be a moment of YC expressing doubt that he means something to OG besides Muscle or whatever he's been hired for. Or even still OG asking YC's opinion about something outside of Muscle and YC being surprised that he wants to know. It can still shake up his world! But maybe more from the standpoint of "I didn't know somebody genuinely cares for me" as opposed to "I didn't know I had free will." It could even tie into him losing his family because he thought that everyone who cared about him was Gone and he'd never experience it again. And the growth is learning how to get back in touch with his feelings and connect genuinely with other people!

The storyline you have now isn't bad tbh! It just needs some tweaks. I can tell you do love orcs and that you’re invested in your character!! I think it’s admirable that you’re so intent on steering clear of negative tropes in your story. As someone who’s been turned off from so many stories bc of fantasy racism, I appreciate the effort! I’m sure if this story is ever shared with anyone else they will too!

have fun creating!!

[gaudebo]

release the orc thoughts!!!!!!!!!!!

I swear Im in love (platonic) w you thank you

Here’s my orc thoughts:

Basically every depiction of orcs so far has been blatantly racist and not very good

This is extremely fixable

This is gonna be an essay, buckle up:

So much of orc characterization focuses on them being a violent, savage, uncivilized, tribal people which unfortunately translates directly to racist stereotypes that have been held about most non-white people at some point in time, particularly Africans and Native Americans. We do not like that. Also, Tolkien himself described orcs as "squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types." We do not like that either.

D&D continues this trend by essentially saying "all orcs are ugly aggressive buff mean as shit and they all die young if you like orcs fuck you. they're omnicidal savages. eat shit and die" which makes me, an orc-liker, deeply unhappy.

How is this fixable, you ask?

First of all: this post has been living in my brain rent free for months. Please go look at it.

Second of all: there's so much potential with orcs if you retain them as a tribal people who are not in the least aggressive when left the fuck alone!! They can still be tribal that is (obviously) not inherently wrong but it would be WAY BETTER for them to be a close-knit and collectivist society! You know, like many tribes are! And perhaps the in-universe stereotype of aggressiveness comes from the fact that they are trained from youth to defend the tribe. But that is exactly what it is: defense. They roam the land and never attack first, but will fight to the death when threatened. When not engaged in conflict, they are excellent artisans. It's just, nobody notices that part. They are an insular people, but every so often some of them leave their tribe to seek a separate fortune. (none of this "all half-orcs are the product of terrible circumstances" shit from the dnd wiki. Stop that.)

Also: the stereotype of orcs as uneducated comes from the fact that very few of them can write. It's a trade passed along from master to apprentice for the rare occasions when they do need to interact with outsiders. However, orc tribes have a rich oral tradition and pass information through stories and parables. Most orcs have excellent memories for information that is shared verbally. Also, art (particularly paintings and textiles) is another medium used for storytelling! The lack of a written language does not equal a lack of knowledge. People just aren't looking in the right places.

Furthermore: let's stop doing this "orcs as a monolith" thing. They have varied senses of morality influenced by culture but ultimately up to the individual. Different tribes of orcs have different cultures, dialects, crafting styles, etc. They are all "orcs" but do not all get along or act the same! (much like people who ask me "why don't you act black?" some orcs are probably asked "why don't you act like an orc?" stop doing this.)

Lastly: I'm redacting the "orcs rarely live past 45 years" shit from d&d bc I don't like it lmao that's the only reason on that one. Here is my new hot take: orcs are extremely protective of their elders especially as a society with oral traditions which is why they are rarely seen by outsiders. Orcs still have shorter lifespans than humans but if an old human is 70 an old orc is 60. Not a huge difference, but noticeable.

Disclaimer: I am not immersed in D&D lore. My autistic hyperfixation™ since I started playing skyrim has been orcs and I am consuming orc lore voraciously. I have many thoughts about this feel free to ask me for more of them.

Hoes really be like "if you perceive orcs as racist stereotypes maybe it is because you are racist" but here is the thing: Living in close-knit communities and honing specific skills, being seen as backwards and barbaric even though it's what you've always done. Being judged because of your appearance, perhaps even considered cursed, but you've always looked like this, and you still think your mother and sisters are beautiful even if no-one else does. Being used only for strength, important only when someone needs something from you, intellectual achievements either disregarded or seen as isolated incidents, constantly fighting to prove yourself in a world where everyone has already decided what you are. By god that is relatable as a person of color!! And then to say "and also all of these people are evil and ugly and there is no hope for any of them and they will all die young" kind of hits different when you are seeing yourself in them. Thanks for coming to my TEDtalk