#Beyond the Spiderverse theory

[luvjunie]

Beyond the Spiderverse Theory!!

contains spoilers for across the spiderverse

okay so in the next movie, beyond the spiderverse, i think miles’ dad will survive. somehow, someway he’ll be saved from his untimely death.

miles was told numerous times in across the spiderverse that he cannot have his cake and eat it too. and he retorts with “unless you have two cakes!” miles is unmoving on his belief of “spiderman always does both.”

while reading out what he wants the bakery to write on the cake, he’s told it won’t fit on one. so he opts for buying two cakes, but while being spiderman, stopping a villain and swinging to his apartment, (aka: trying to do both) he’s late for his parents’ party, both of the cakes are ruined, he misses his dad’s heartfelt speech and then gets grounded. essentially the lesson from this is that he has to choose his battles correctly, that he cannot do both.

when miles finds out his dad is supposed to die, he tells miguel that he can save his father and save the city/civilians, because spiderman ALWAYS does both, but like we‘ve seen numerous times, sometimes doing both just isn’t possible. in order to have one thing, you have to give up something else. he’s told that this is what being spiderman is all about, that this is what he signed up for.

miles isn’t satisfied with this answer, and says he’s gonna do his own thing.

a good portion of the movie focuses on the development of miles’ and his mom’s relationship, while him and his dad’s is still kind of rocky. he’s growing up right in front of her eyes and she has to change the way she parents, but expresses that she’s scared of losing her little boy to the world, and that she just wants to protect him because others might not have his best interests at heart— and we end up seeing that later on. our focus is pulled from this when we see what miles’ canon event is supposed to be— his dad’s death.

where i’m going with this? the one you expect is never the one they take. usually the character who we think is the safest, is actually the one who’s in danger.

in miles’ comics, during the battle with venom, he saves his father from dying but while this happens, the police accidentally shoot (and kill) his mother, rio, when they were aiming for venom. and as she’s bleeding out in his arms, this is when he finally confesses to her that he’s spiderman (something he didn’t get to do at the end of the movie because he was in the wrong universe). more happens w this in the comics but we know sometimes movies don’t follow the plot to a T, and beyond the spiderverse is supposed to be the end to his story.

so let’s replace venom with another villain that we’ve recently been introduced to, the spot. another ridiculously powerful villain that the cops will stupidly try and apprehend with guns that don’t stand a chance like they always do.

that being said, i don’t think they’re going to kill off miles’ dad.

i think they’re going to kill off his mom.

[fermented-writers-block]

You know, I just can’t stop thinking about the achronal time weirdness of Miles’ vision of the future.

I’ve talked before how - due to the overall themes surrounding “Canon Events” as well as Inspector Singh’s unexplained appearance in said vision - I suspect the Spot may retroactively become responsible for the dimensional collapses the Spider-Society has encountered from too many averted Canon Events.

All perhaps from an effort to try to force tragedy and suffering upon Miles that might accidentally end up affecting all those other Spider-Men, but still. However, it just hit me that we have already seen a hint of this time weirdness before, and to a degree that supports my theory even better than the vision.

Namely, Gwen explicitly arriving to Earth-1610 a literal week before the collider incident that brought the five alternate Spider-Men over.

Dear lord is it terrifying to picture the Spot realizing his dark matter doesn’t just affect space, but it can also be used to affect things through time as well…

[baobhanlore-art]

I know everyone is talking about the ATSV scene where Miguel goes apeshit but I just wanted to mention how Miguel is still addicted to Rapture, an insanely addictive drug exclusively developed by Alchemax to give him no choice but to keep working for them because he couldn't live without it. In the comics, him becoming Spiderman got rid of his addiction but possibly the trauma or some rewrites of his story makes it so he went back to it or just never overcame his addiction. (idk if there's more to it, I just read the fan wiki)

And I kind of have a theory that there's going to be a massive steakout due to The Spot fuckery that prevents them from going back to Nueva York, and Miguel won't have access to Rapture when he desperately needs it and starts going through withdrawals. It makes him more sensitive to light, as part of the vampire motif, but imagine the insane feral Miguel we saw but going through incomprehensibly severe withdrawals. I don't feel like they'd introduce the drug if it wasn't important, and minor details in ITSV have paid off in ATSV so who's to say we won't see more of it. It may also be a pinch point where he's forcef to retreat in a conflict with Miles and his friends and he can't stay in the sunlight anymore, but he starts suffering majorly from withdrawals and starts to lose control over himself.

Also idk if this really fits but I have another theory that Miguel is going to do something mirroring Miles in Mumbattan where he puts himself in an insane level of danger to protect a civilian, and I genuinely think it might be protecting Mayday. It would be a moment similar to Andrew Garfield Spider-Man saving MCU MJ, where he can't save the person he lost but he can prevent someone else going through the same pain he did.

That's just some theories though. Idk if they'll have any relevance.

[emmajh97-mumaji]

What if Miguel (2099) is an anomaly?

I've had this idea ever since seeing Across the Spider Verse and I felt like sharing it here. (Warning: I may be totally off and misremembering things, so sorry in advance ahdsfkdf.)

Remember that scene towards the beginning when Miguel and Jessica show up to help Gwen fight the Vulture? There was a joke where Gwen says "knock yourself out" at Miguel, who then proceeds to get hit from behind.

The reason Miguel doesn't dodge out of the way is because he actually doesn't have a Spider-Sense. His origin story is different from other Spider-Men (direct experimentation as opposed to a spider bite), so he has a different powerset. (Hence the fangs, and the climbing with claws instead of sticking.) Obviously these movies differ greatly from the original Spider-verse comics, straying away from the mystical angle more towards an MCU-style scifi angle. (Heck, the initial diagram Miguel shows of 'all of reality' looks like it was pulled straight from Loki.) But, hear me out, they might be taking more inspiration than we realize.

Just like how the Spider-Society guards the Canon and the Spider-Verse that surrounds the Multiverse, in the comics all Spider-people protect what was known as the Web of Life and Destiny. One prominent Spider-Verse character that has yet to appear in the movies, Madame Web, harnesses The Web's powers to see into the future of all realities.

Now if I remember correctly, (and please correct me if I'm wrong), there was a Spider-Man comic where the Spider Sense power was connected to the Web of Life and Destiny. Essentially what Spiders thought was just wider awareness was actually a mild form of precognition. Being a Spider connected you to reality in a more heightened way than anyone else.

So now that I've established all this, hear me out-- Remember when Miguel tried to take over the life of an alternate version of himself, and that caused all of that reality to collapse? WELL... Maybe the real reason that happened isn't just because Miguel defied a 'canon event'... maybe its because HE'S AN ANOMOLY HIMSELF. He doesn't have the Spider Sense, which means that, unlike the other Spiders, he's not as innately connected with the fabric of reality.

The creators might be hinting at this with the ending, as well. When Miguel goes to hunt down the escaped Miles, he takes a small task force of two people he trusts-- Jessica Drew's Spider-Woman and Ben Riley's Scarlet Spider. What do 2099, Jessica, and Scarlet Spider have in common? None of them got their powers by being bitten by a radioactive spider. All of them have a 'canon' that differs wildly from the traditional Spidey origin story, and usually involves direct gene-splicing (or, in Ben's case, cloning). Perhaps Miguel knows something he's not letting on about how The Canon actually works, and that's why these two are in is his inner circle? Just a thought.

This whole idea is probably crazy, but it IS a way for the creators to justify why Miles is right. Why Miles will be able to change Fate while Miguel couldn't. Why Miles won't destroy the entire multiverse.

Thanks for reading!!

[proffesionalalpaca]

Spiderverse: Canon-Events, Corrective-Balance Theory

So the spider people know little about the exact specifics of why breaking canon events break down the multiverse, they just know it does and quite reasonably don’t want to push their luck in testing the limits.

My theory is that specific canon events can be broken, for instance the death of Miles’ police captain father, as long as there is an equivalent event that takes place in its stead. Like for example, a Nurse/paramedic mother who dies instead. Less so breaking the canon as altering or rewriting it, so long as the impact is equivalent.

If the universe can ‘correct’ itself in order to preserve & continue the story, it will.

We have seen a universe change it’s ‘canon’ with Miles’ own universe, he essentially exchanged his fate with another version of himself from Earth 42. But that also caused the death of his uncle Aron who, had Miles not been bit by spider 42, would likely have stayed alive. It’s like the 2 universes swapped scripts after the bite, killing the current Spider-Man in order to make room for the new one, so as to maintain a more steady equilibrium between the 2 universe, by removing the excess Spider-Man and later the excess prowler.

Miguel replacing a dead version of himself meant that an equivalent event could not occur and the after-effects of the ‘his’ death never happen, then the universe destabilised from the imbalance. Pavitr’s universe began to fracture after Miles’ interference, because the knock on effects from captain Sihgh’s death now can’t happen, effects that could have lead to Pavi becoming a better Spider-Man who will be able to take on far bigger threats and make better choices to prevent history repeating itself with captain Singh, all built from & learned from this one moment.

In short: the universes of the spiderverse seem to have a sense of balance to them and when that is disrupted, universes destabilise, especially when the fate of death is altered. But theoretically if an equivalent exchange is possible for the universe to remain stable then the ‘canon-event’ can change or shift, therefore maintaining the meta-narrative’s structure.

So Miles’ will very likely defy fate to save his father but will learn the ‘lesson’ he needs to by losing his mother instead, because Spider-Man must learn and overcome this loss in order to become who he is meant to be, a Spider-Man who will put anything on the line, sacrifice everything in order to save the day.

The butterfly effect caught in a spiders web.

[impeccably-imbecilic]

Spoilers for Across the Spiderverse below. Also tw/cw for discussions of death, bc you know, it's Spiderman.

Sooo... I have this crackpot morbid theory that Miles' mom is gonna die in the third installment and I don't have a lot of substantial evidence for it, so it's actually less of a theory and more of a "What if..."

Listen. Miles is doing everything in his power to save his dad right now, because that's the one he's expecting to lose. But fate (or canon, as they call it) always has a way to twist things around on you. What if he focuses too hard on saving his dad and forgets to look out for his mom, too?

I also say this because we saw Miles bond with his mom a lot more than his dad in this one. The conversation where she let him follow Gwen, and the way he was ready to tell his mom about being Spiderman more than he was ready to tell his dad. What if they're writing in more bonding between the two of them because he's about to lose her?

If I'm being completely honest I just have a feeling that his dad isn't gonna die. He's going to get hurt, maybe, but he'll survive.

Idk. I didn't pick up on any symbolic foreshadowing because I just started thinking about this and I saw the movie like 3 days ago. I'll probably pirate it and watch it again pretty soon.

BTW I'm not hoping for this to happen!! I just think it might. I love Rio she's such a good mom and I hope nothing bad ever befalls her. ✌️❤️

[anaryo]

Have a theory about what may occur in Beyond the Spider-verse, but it may take a while before I write something down.

[miguelobsession]

If we're gonna get Peter B stopping Miguel from going after Miles and they get a flashback of how Peter got Miguel back to HQ after his daughter died, and was with him when he broke down I'm gonna fucking sob in the cinema

[razmerry]

Fan of Superior Spider-Man, making predictions for Beyond the Spider-Verse: getting a lot of Superior Spider-Man vibes from this…

[meekasthings]

Shoe theory (part 2)

I already made a theory that Ganke 42 couldn't steal Miles 42's shoes(his shoe size is too small since he was never bitten by the spider and never got bigger), but something about it didn't sit right with me. Having Ganke just steal Miles's shoes just to say this was too random. Sure, maybe it's also to show how comfortable him and Miles are with eachother compared to the first movie, but it still felt so out of place. Until I remembered something.

Ganke isn't the only one who stole people's shoes.

"Are those my Jordans?"

"Are those my chucks?"

I am beginning to think that they'll have more parallels in the future bc stealing shoes is just too random for it to be a coincidence.

Edit:Now that I think about it, the real question should be: WHY do these two characters have connections?

If the plan was to get Miles's attention, Gwen's backfired(because she probably wanted to impress him, but hobie made him insecure and the shoe stealing got his attention in basically the worst way possible), and Ganke's plan certainly succeeded(I've seen it in fiction and real life. People stealing their crush's belongings to get any kind of attention from them and Ganke definitely got it.)

[muchymozzarella]

Beyond the Spider-verse Theory

tldr

MIGUEL'S DAUGHTER IS STILL ALIVE and so is her universe, and it's simply no longer connected to the web that is the "Spider-verse"

also fun fact TRN 660 is a universe where Miguel's son Gabri becomes Spider-Man so if anyone's ever had a trans headcanon for Miguel's daughter y'all are canon validated

[spicypepperjack]

If the Miles-1610 and Gwen-65 we know in the Spider-Verse trilogy actually do become Earth-8 Miles and Gwen by the end of Beyond the Spider-Verse, I really hope they don't become a celebrity couple.

We learned that Miles got cancelled multiple times on social media, and Gwen got treated as a pariah for accidentally causing her Peter's death. Obviously, their public treatments are not equal, but the point remains that that clout hasn't always been favorable to them.

Given their experiences, I feel like those two would really like to be low-key about their relationship and would want to continue as the friendly, neighborhood Spider heroes as they've always been. Being a celebrity couple would likely distract them from that ideal and might change their behaviors for the worse, especially if they're subject to the court of public opinion.

Sure, they'd find it cute when people inevitably ship their Spider-selves, but I think they'd do their best to keep their real relationship behind closed doors.

[ficsinhistory]

ok, but there's something extremely haunting about the fact that the writers confirm that Gwen is the light and colors of Miles' life, and is basically associated with the sun, as we saw in the tower scene. And then the name of the event in which all the Gwens die is called "The NIGHT Gwen Stacy Died".

You know…that period of the day where there is no sun and that has to happen anyway because the night always comes.

But the sun also always comes back the next day.

[vikingknight90]

New quote from the directors regarding Beyond:

"It will be a very satisfying conclusion. It goes even more emotionally deep into the relationships between Miles, Gwen, Peter, his parents... Daniel Kaluuya as Hobie Brown. All your favorites are back. The big thing that's interesting for Miles is, how do you deal with the sense of betrayal and turn it into something affirmative? The thing that we're trying to do with these movies is represent goodness, and show how the love that the characters in the movie have for Miles translates into his growth and success."

Source

I'm so excited, of course I had to bold out my favorite parts..

What are your interpretations for what they're saying here? I'm really curios about the "deal with the sense of betrayal and turn it into something affirmative" part.

And of course it sounds like the characters' love for Miles, including Gwen's, will ultimately make Miles feel stronger and be a source of his victory in the end (most likely Gwen's own victory as well.) <3

[danwhobrowses]

Beyond the Spider-Verse Theory: The Hidden Villain

So I've left it a few days after watching Across the Spider-Verse to gather my thoughts. And while you can see my review here it's time for some theory crafting for the next movie: Beyond the Spider-Verse

This theory will discuss the existence of another villain behind the scenes

Spoilers for Across the Spider-Verse

So as we know, the main crux of the Spider Society's storyline is that the Web of Life and Destiny (aka the Spider-Verse) apparently hinges on the concept of 'Canon Events', whereby each Spider has to undergo intersecting moments in each mythos. Miguel O'Hara enforces this pattern via the Spider Society, after his attempts to 'break canon' caused the universe he inhabited, taking over from another dead Miguel's life, to die - along with his alternative universe daughter. We also learn that anomalies like this will cause the web to collapse, and thus Miles - having been bitten by another universe's spider to get spider powers, allegedly robbing the powers from another potential spider - and Spot are walking anomalies and their prolonged time in another universe may cause another collapse.

But something doesn't quite add up.

First of all, if Miles and Spot are anomalies, why is their universe still intact? Same can be said for the Earth-42 spider still in a jar. Additionally, why did Miguel's universe collapse if he had the watch that keeps his atoms good in the universe? Isn't he doing exactly what he alleges Miles is doing, taking over another Spider-person who died in this Universe? Also it's highly unlikely that every Spider is subject to the same canon events; Ben Reilly is a clone and Miguel had his DNA mixed with a spider's so surely that disrupts the OG Canon Event of the Spider-bite right? Miguel never had an Uncle Ben or a Captain Stacy moment in his mythos (unless we're suddenly counting the alt!Daughter as the former), plus in Into the Spider-Verse Gwen already said she saved her dad from dying so wouldn't that have disrupted a Canon Event? Do captains even exist for Peter Parked Car or Spidersaurus Rex?

And finally, how can you say Spot and Miles are anomalies and shouldn't be in the universe when Pravitr's Canon Event is only caused by Spot interfering with his universe?

Like I said, it doesn't add up.

So, how do we establish that the idea of 'Canon Events' are not as strict as they seem, that Miles and Spot aren't reality-threatening anomalies, but also explain what happened to the universe that traumatized Miguel - with Peter B. also as witness to verify the story?

Perhaps, someone is manipulating the web behind the scenes.

In the comics, the Web of Life and Destiny is maintained by the 'Master Weaver', a character key to Morlun and his Inheritors, and while I don't think we're going to see the Weaver in Beyond the Spider-Verse I do feel like somebody could be filling that kind of a role. So ask yourself, who do we know in the Spider-Verse who has a unique interest in other dimensions, has the mind to test and tinker, but also has a fascination slash vendetta against the spiders...

Dr. Olivia Octavius was a highlight of the first movie, but her sudden exit after being hit by a truck was considered an abrupt and unsatisfying end for her. So what if she survived? And when the collider closed she was sucked into the Web of Life and Destiny? An inquisitive mind such as herself would have a wealth of time (well, not literally, given that Miles got a glimpse of the future and Spider Society HQ is in 2099 we can assume that the web exists outside of linear time) to test things, seeing the paths and intersections of other Spiders. Liv however does have one particular Spider she seems drawn to in a negative manner though, Peter B. Parker, so what if Miguel's incident in the universe collapsing was instead an attempted hit towards Peter B., Liv attempting to wipe him out of time by wiping the universe he was in?

It does go deeper, we've seen from the Spot that in his flashback scenes he's always adjacent to Liv, they both identified the Earth-42 spider, and she was the leading scientist on the Collider, so she would have the skills to know this, and if she became able to expand her abilities by being a villainous Master Weaver (like Superior Spider-Man attempted to be by killing the Master Weaver to change his fate), she may also be responsible for directing other Spiders' paths along the same route to manipulate Miguel into his current uncharacteristic way of thinking, she may also be manipulating her colleague Spot to encourage more suffering to the Spiders.

If true, it'll at least give Miguel closure and open the door for him to be apologetic and much less of a dick, but it'd also explain how Miles could become able to divert the idea of Canon Events without destroying his or other universes, liberating each Spider to exist in their own story without having to follow the same pattern. Adding to a much bigger role for Octavius (we did see a lot of variant Doc Ocks in ATSV) would provide a cyclic conclusion to Miles' journey since his other 'first villains' Kingpin and Prowler have been defeated.

But, this is just a theory, there's much room to go other directions, but it was a thought.

[heart-of-the-morningstar]

Opening for BTSV thought…

Ok so, we know how Gwen opened up ATSV, she had like the first 20 minutes that set up the movie. Now hear me out, what if Pavitr opens up BTSV (I may be biased but let me live lol), but imagine if you will…

Pavitr was left behind when the rest of the Spider Band left for Nueva York, so Pav is there wondering what’s going on. He swings down to the other Spider people where they are trying to contain the black hole that appeared. He starts asking them questions, but all of the answers aren’t very helpful. “We’re trying to contain the anomaly.” “The canon was broken.” This doesn’t really clear anything up, but he knows whatever is happening is not good.

He swings back up to the bridge, he makes sure everyone is clear of the damage. He heads home to Maya Auntie, he finds her asleep on the couch. She left the tv on, it was the news. They were reporting on the black hole that appeared in the middle of city. Pav feels weary, he finds a blanket and places it over Maya and turns the tv off. He goes to bed and tries to sleep, but he can’t.

Quietly, he puts his suit on and grabs his watch from Miguel and swings into the night. His plan was to travel to Nueva York to get answers from Miguel as to what was happening to his city. But as he swings, he ends up swinging by Gayatri’s home. He sees her on the balcony and lands on a near by rooftop. Normally, he wouldn’t interact with her as Spider-Man, but in this case, he felt it justified to check up on her since he did rescue her earlier.

He swings and lands on top of her rooftop. He attaches is web to their chimney and hangs upside down in front of her. She’s startled at first but recollects herself once she realizes who it is. He apologizes for scaring her and says he recognized her as the girl from the bus. He asks her if she’s alright, she giggles and says she’s fine and that she’s lucky that he was there to save her. He’s relieved and tells her he needs to go, but she tells him to wait. She asks him if there’s a way she can repay him for saving her life, perhaps a kiss.

Pav is taken a back, he’s stammering, he wants to say yes because of course he wants a kiss from her. But he’s not Pavitr right now, he’s Spider-Man, he can’t accept. But he still form a coherent sentence, finding it hard to say no. Gayatri laughs “What’s wrong, you don’t want a kiss from your girlfriend, Pav?”

He goes silent, trying hard to process what she just said. “W-what?” is all he could manage. “It’s okay Pavitr, I know it’s you.” At this point, he flipped himself right-side up, standing in front of her now. Slowly, he reaches up to his mask and pulls it off, he stares at the ground.

“How did you know?” He asks softly, he hasn’t lifted his head to look at her yet. “Well, the hug you gave today kind of sealed it for me. But your hair is very recognizable, Pav.” He laughed a little, finally meeting her gaze. He apologizes for not telling her, saying he wanted to keep her safe. She’s understanding and give him a small peck on the cheek, it’s hard for him to hide the blush on his face.

He tells her that he’s worried about the black hole that appeared in the city today and that he’s going to to find answers. All of a sudden, there’s a shaking in her room. A few things start to levitate slowly off the ground, they look at each other confused. A portal opens, suddenly Gwen appears. Pavitr is relieved, Gayatri is still confused but relaxes when she sees her boyfriend is calm, he tells her not to worry and that she’s a friend.

“Miles is in trouble, Pav. We need your help. Please.” Gwen says. Behind her appears Hobie and Peter B with Mayday. Pavitr nods and turns to Gayatri. “I have to go. I’ll be back soon, I promise,” he says. He leans down and gives her a tight hug. “Be safe,” she whispers in his ear. He pulls back and smiles, “I always am.” He plants a small kiss on her forehead and heads towards Gwen and the portal.

Hobie, Peter B., and Gwen all walk through the portal. Pavitr turns around one last time before stepping through. “I love you,” he says, and disappears along with the portal.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Listen, this isn’t the prettiest writing or set up, but I would love something like this as it feels like a parallel to ATSV and Gwen’s story and I wanted to self indulge 😭