#I’m watching it with my Polycule yay!! | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

staircasttext · 3 years

Text

Ep 15 Transcript: Press Q for War Crimes

Episode 15

[intro music]

PAZ: Hi everyone, welcome back to Stairway to StarClan, a Warriors Cat reread pawdcast. I'm Paz.

JULIAN: I'm Julian.

LIZ: And I'm Liz.

PAZ: And we are here for our mega finale episode, totally intended to be huge not because of bad chapter planning. But yeah, we've finished Fire and Ice and a second full Warriors book.

LIZ: Yay.

JULIAN: Hell yeah.

PAZ: Yeah, exciting. But we're gonna split the discussion up into two parts today because it's really long. So that's the plan. Sorry, I noticed this while I was reading this book in the car today. This review on the back cover, I just wanna read it out for everyone.

JULIAN: Please do.

PAZ: "A suspenseful animal adventure that will leave readers eyeing Puss a little nervously." From the Kirkus Reviews. Thank you, Kirkus Reviews.

JULIAN: Oh my god.

PAZ: This book is like what if my cat's plotting to murder me? You never know. Oh, I feel like I have to give my cat a shoutout for his warrior spirit because he caught three mice within 24 hours.

LIZ: What?

PAZ: Recently, very proud of him.

JULIAN: I'm so proud of him.

LIZ: When did the third one happen?

PAZ: The third one, it happened this morning, I think.

LIZ: Wow.

JULIAN: He's so fierce.

PAZ: He's so fierce, and a great hunter, and he has a bell collar on.

JULIAN: Damn.

PAZ: So he's like fucking Rock Lee. If we ever took that off...

LIZ: He learned how to be a warrior around them. It's like when they do the montage with the fight guys, and they have to have the big weights on them.

PAZ: Yeah, Rock Lee.

LIZ: Is that... well, I don't know. I've never Narutoed.

PAZ: Oh my gosh. Do I have to go send you the Rock Lee weight scene? I'll do that after.

LIZ: All right, join us for season three when we watch Naruto and only that video.

PAZ: I read so much Naruto. I just forget that sometimes. Okay, anyway, let's talk about Warriors, I guess. Anyone have anything else to add before the summaries?

JULIAN: Doozy of a chapter chunk.

LIZ: We're going to get to that part in the first summaries, but I gasped out loud at one thing. Just like holding my little ereader phone, just like [gasps].

PAZ: Yes, there is a very dramatic reveal. Although I knew it, so it wasn't as dramatic for me. But glad to hear that first impression reaction. Let's start off with these chapter summaries, breaking off from when Brokenstar's polycule attacks ThunderClan. Chapter 26, Brokenstar attacks ThunderClan. While Fireheart, Yellowfang, the apprentices and the queens fight back, the elders hide away the kits. Cinderpaw goes to join, but Dustpaw forces her to stay back in Yellowfang's den.

Fireheart fights Brokenstar, but is attacked by Clawface. That was the cat who killed Spottedleaf in the last book. Fireheart furiously attacks Clawface, suddenly feeling Spottedleaf's spirit besides him to help avenge her death. Just as Clawface pins him down, Fireheart cries out to Spottedleaf for help. But Graystripe arrives just in time to pull Clawface off, killing him in the process. Graystripe says Bluestar also found bones and recognized Brokenstar's scent, and that she sent him to get Tigerclaw because she thought it was a trap.

Meanwhile, Fireheart sees Frostfur, Dustpaw, and Sandpaw fighting the rogue cats as he looks for Brokenstar. He hears a yowl from Yellowfang's den and rushes in, afraid for Cinderpaw, but sees that Yellowfang has seriously injured Brokenstar instead. Brokenstar loses a life, but not his last, and Fireheart asks why she doesn't finish him off. Yellowfang confesses that Brokenstar is actually her son, and that she loved his father Raggedstar.

LIZ: [gasps]

PAZ: Brokenstar doesn't know she's his mother. They all find out that Yellowfang has injured Brokenstar's eyes badly so that he is blind. Fireheart checks on Cinderpaw, who is fine, but wishes she could have helped in the battle, and she and Yellowfang start tending to Brokenstar. The rogue cats are chased off. Fireheart thanks Graystripe for saving his life and Graystripe tells him he'd give his life for Fireheart. Just bro things.

Bluestar returns. Fireheart explains everything to her, and she praises him. Tigerclaw is also back. Fireheart tells him what happened to Brokenstar, and Yellowfang says she will tend to him until he recovers. Almost everyone is skeptical, but she says it would be wrong to leave him to die or kill him, although she doesn't reveal that he is her son, and Bluestar agrees for now. She says Brokenstar is no longer a clan leader and renames him in a pretty unnecessary fashion. She renames him to Brokentail, I think.

JULIAN: Yep.

PAZ: Chapter 27. After the battle, Fireheart tells Bluestar how Dustpaw and Sandpaw defended the clan from the attack, and that they both deserve to be warriors and she agrees. Dustpaw is surprised, and Sandpaw says it's Fireheart's quick thinking that saved them. They decided to have the naming ceremony that day, and the two new warriors are then named Dustpelt and Sandstorm. Bluestar also thanks Fireheart for his courage. Fireheart says to Sandstorm he's glad they can eat together as warriors now, though is a bit disappointed that he can't eat alone with her.

He goes to bring something to Cinderpaw for dinner, since she wasn't at the naming ceremony. Brokentail is still unconscious. Cinderpaw is depressed, feeling she is a burden to the clan, and Fireheart doesn't even comfort or reassure her again for some reason.

LIZ: [grumbles]

PAZ: Yellowfang says Cinderpaw is a great help to her, though, and they both have a friendly exchange. Fireheart is a little envious of their relationship. It's snowing the next morning. Dustpelt and Sandpaw have returned from the midnight vigil and are asleep. Bluestar tells the rest of the clan that Brokentail will be staying.

She also tells Fireheart that she's worried about him and Graystripe not making up yet, and he and Graystripe should hang out (hunt). Fireheart is hopeful about the idea, but Graystripe is cold to him, accusing Fireheart of doubting his clan loyalty and only wanting to keep an eye on him. He says Fireheart just wants to please Bluestar. They go hunting anyway, and it's super awkward because of trust issues. When they return with freshkill, Brindleface tells Fireheart that Cloudkit and her other kids have gone missing.

Chapter 28, Fireheart tries to find Graystripe to help look for the kits, but can't find him. Sandstorm offers to help instead. It's difficult to track the kits in the blizzard, and Fireheart is worried. He and Sandstorm both decide to head back and get more help, but they notice the voices of the kits before doing so. They find all the kits but Cloudkit by a fallen tree, and one of the kits says he is hunting. Cloudkit shows up, carrying a little vole in his mouth. Fireheart and Sandstorm gather up all the kits and rush back to the camp.

Bluestar scolds the kits, but Cloudkit is defiant and says the clan needed food and that it was his idea. She says that while his intentions were good, he was foolish. Fireheart feels a mixture of pride and worry for Cloudkit because he is skilled but is reckless about the warrior code. Bluestar later tells Fireheart that he needs to teach Cloudkit to respect the warrior code. He agrees but resents the high expectations for such a young kit, and thinks of Graystripe, a clan born warrior who disobeys the code all the time. He also wonders if Cloudkit can really adjust to clan life.

Graystripe returns from hunting, but Fireheart can tell he went to see Silverstream. That night, Fireheart dreams about hunting with a grown up Cloudkit. Spottedleaf also shows up in a dream and warns Fireheart about a battle approaching and to beware of a warrior he can't trust. And that's the first chunk of chapters that we'll be discussing.

JULIAN: God.

LIZ: Damn.

JULIAN: Chapter 26 especially was just like one thing after another. Like very good, but it's just the events start coming and they don't stop coming.

PAZ: Yeah, it has like the big soap opera reveal in the middle of it.

JULIAN: God.

PAZ: Yeah, I mean like half of it's the battle, and then Yellowfang's big reveal.

JULIAN: Which is so good.

LIZ: It really is.

JULIAN: We love to see just a whole fucked up family situation. Very good.

LIZ: Just a mess.

PAZ: Graystripe wishes his forbidden romance had whatever's going on here.

LIZ: Graystripe, you're just dating someone from another high school.

JULIAN: You're no medicine cat in love with your own leader. And then blinding your son.

PAZ: Yeah, your son who doesn't know he's your son.

LIZ: Oh my god.

PAZ: Like I said, some real--

LIZ: I think it was-- yeah.

PAZ: Go ahead.

LIZ: Oh no, I think it's just kind of nicely seeded I think in our previous reading, where she said like she recognized like it was Brokenstar from bones and stuff. But um, I think it was mentioned that like, oh yeah, I was there for their kitting. And it's like, yeah, you sure were.

JULIAN: Oh boy.

LIZ: You were the main participant.

PAZ: Yeah, I think I feel like I remembered in Into the Wild there were some hints, too, although I'd have to go back and find them.

JULIAN: I think there's some like-- I mean, she obviously has really conflicted feelings about Brokenstar in Into the Wild. Which makes it even more fucked up that he kicked her out. She was his mom!

PAZ: Right?

JULIAN: Um, but like, also, I think there's some stuff about her being kind of maternal or like, all the stuff with her and the kits, where she's like, kind of trying to hang out around the kit den, and the queens are really upset about it. And she's like, oh, I get it.

PAZ: Just a nice two book build up.

JULIAN: I love Yellowfang.

PAZ: Me too.

LIZ: She's so good.

PAZ: Also, her being like, this is like divine punishment...

JULIAN: Oof.

PAZ: Very, very, like, it sucks but also very cool. I don't know. Although, I don't know about that, Yellowfang.

LIZ: Yeah, that's... just, I guess we're kind of going back to the ableism from the-- I mean, from the whole series, but also, specifically from the previous reading, uh. It's like--

PAZ: Oh, I wasn't talking about Brokenstar there. I was just talking about her having a fucked up family situation.

LIZ: Oh, okay, sorry.

PAZ: Now she's like, this is what I get. But yeah.

JULIAN: I think her line exactly is like, "my punishment wasn't that like my other two kits died. It was that this one survived." And it's like, oh, geez.

LIZ: Yeah, that's fucked up.

PAZ: StarClan said you can have a real sicko of a child.

JULIAN: StarClan gave you a real Megaboneclan son.

PAZ: Oh God, right. Yeah, but yeah, Liz, the ableism stuff does come back up, if you wanna--

LIZ: That line... it can be-- That line is like very-- I don't want to say... I don't know. I would appreciate it a lot more for the drama of your evil son, your Megaboneclan evil son, if it wasn't for like, right, immediately, like next to this, how they talk so much about like, oh, now he's blind. He can't do anything.

PAZ: I didn't read that line as referring to that. Although--

LIZ: No, no. I don't think that was intentional.

PAZ: The descriptions around his blindness are like, still not great because it's like, oh, he can't do anything now, but I think that line more refers to his actions as a cat person.

LIZ: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

PAZ: Than what has happened.

LIZ: Yeah, it's just--

JULIAN: Yeah, I do wish that like-- oh, go ahead.

LIZ: No, it's just unfortunate that those things are right next to each other. It's like, bad timing, I feel.

JULIAN: I wish that like, I mean, Warrior Cats bingo. I wish that the blindness was handled differently because it's like oh, he's completely not a threat. We can just keep him around and he'll be totally fine. And it's like his vision was not what made him a threat.

LIZ: No.

JULIAN: Like he was a threat because he was extremely persuasive and like, very good at getting people to go along with him. And nothing's happened to that.

LIZ: No.

PAZ: Yeah. And he still has a bunch of lives, so.

JULIAN: Yeah, I did think-- like when the kits disappear, my immediate-- I had forgotten what happened. And my immediate thought was Brokenstar?

PAZ: Yeah, same.

JULIAN: That he had lured them away or something. Which I personally think would have been a good plot point.

LIZ: Would have been a good plot point. I think if that happened, though, we would have been like, okay, I guess we have an-- you made an evil disabled cat kidnap the kits.

JULIAN: Oh, that is bad. Yeah.

PAZ: You can't win either way in Warriors, I guess.

LIZ: Nn.

JULIAN: You're either Cinderpaw and you're sort of a de facto medicine cat and also a burden on the clan. Or you're Brokentail.

PAZ: Yeah, speaking of ableism, there's more bad convos with Cinderpaw.

JULIAN: Ugh.

PAZ: Where she straight up says like, oh, I feel like a burden on the clan. And then Fireheart doesn't really like disagree. Like what the hell?

LIZ: He's interrupted, right? Because Yellowfang starts talking about like oh, actually, you're a great assistant. But you didn't have to write it that way.

JULIAN: Yeah. I also just like... no one talks about the elders or like the queens or like other people who don't hunt for themselves like being burdens on the clan.

LIZ: No.

PAZ: Right?

JULIAN: I don't... where is this coming fr-- I mean, I know where it's coming from. It's coming from the authors. But like it just doesn't make sense with like the way that the cat society has been set up.

PAZ: Absolutely. It's just like a very deeply communal society, and like it is about supporting everyone in the clan. So like you said, the elders don't hunt. So yeah, it just doesn't make sense at all.

LIZ: Yeah. I guess like if you wanted to, I don't think that Warriors Cats currently in this book or possibly later wants to have that conversation necessarily. But if you wanted to, I think it would be pretty easy to have like one clan be more-- like, to be better at this sort of accommodation, and have like-- just for like that black and white kid metaphor, to have like the evil clan be not as good at it, you know?

PAZ: Well, apparently WindClan is doing fine on that front, but it's not portrayed like ThunderClan is deeply ableist, so.

LIZ: No.

PAZ: So it just comes off as a weird like incoherent plot point, when you can have like, one disabled cat in one clan like in a high ranking authority position, and then in another clan, apparently not. And like, for no reason given.

LIZ: WindClan's fine. They're just like, hey, what's up? What the fuck is up with everyone else?

PAZ: Yeah, we'll talk more about that later. WindClan really needs to like, move and then stop dealing with all this bullshit. And then there's that weird renaming thing too.

JULIAN: Yeah. Nothing's wrong with-- is something wrong with his tail?

PAZ: I don't know.

LIZ: No, I don't think so.

PAZ: I was like, was that-- I couldn't tell if that used to be his name. And she's just like, you going back to that name. Or, I don't know.

JULIAN: Oh, Brokentail was his original warrior name.

PAZ: Yeah, that's what I read it as.

LIZ: Oh.

PAZ: But once again, weird names.

LIZ: I think it's just because like, oh, someone else is reverting it for him, not...

PAZ: Yeah.

JULIAN: Oh.

LIZ: It's not even really like, yeah.

JULIAN: Jesus. Yellowfang named him, A.

LIZ: Yellowfang!

JULIAN: Like she named him Brokenkit.

PAZ: Oh no.

LIZ: Why?

JULIAN: "After the bend in his tail as well as the feeling Yellowfang felt in her heart at the time of his birth."

PAZ: Oh my god. Damn.

LIZ: Fucking, move over, Lan Wangji.

[everyone cackling]

PAZ: [muffled] Ohhh. I probably just blew out the audio so much.

JULIAN: I also did. Oh no.

PAZ: A little joke for our Untamed fans out there.

LIZ: Untamed didn't know shit.

PAZ: Untamed wants what Warriors has.

LIZ: Why not just call him like--

PAZ: Mistakekit.

LIZ: Bendytail or something-- no! Just Wiggletail or something. Wavetail.

PAZ: Wiggletail, that's great.

JULIAN: Aw.

PAZ: Also, it's beginning to thunderstorm pretty hard here. Hopefully I don't lose power but--

JULIAN: Oh no.

PAZ: Heads up.

LIZ: It's ThunderClan. They're coming.

JULIAN: Well, I guess that's what we got Craig for.

PAZ: Yeah, hopefully Craig works. Fingers crossed.

JULIAN: In non-Brokenstar related news, the bit about where Graystripe saves Fireheart, and then is like, I would give my life for you, is so romantic?

PAZ: Right? It just came out of nowhere.

LIZ: It's so good.

PAZ: It was deeply romantic.

LIZ: It's just, it's such a good moment. And then, ugh.

JULIAN: It's such a good moment, and then Graystripe fucks up again in the very next chapter.

PAZ: Yeah, he had one moment of being decent, and then he's back to being a fool.

LIZ: Yeah. I do like seeing that push-pull of conflict there, because that's, you know, that's the whole crux of Fireheart being unsure. And I mean, it also makes Graystripe feel like, oh yeah, this is the friend that will die for me. But is he gonna pick me up from the airport? No.

PAZ: Yeah, it's like in the moment, yeah, he is like on top of it, but then when Fireheart confronts him later, he gets all like, pissy and evasive again.

JULIAN: Fireheart doesn't even confront him. He's just like hey, do you want to go hunting? And Graystripe is like, are you making sure I don't disappear again? And just like, and then Graystripe tries to play like he would have saved any clan cat's life, and he also would have told any clan cat that he would die for them.

PAZ: No biggie.

LIZ: Uh-huh, sure.

PAZ: Just clan things.

LIZ: Just clan things.

JULIAN: Sort out your shit, Graystripe

LIZ: I mean, also has-- there has to be someone out there who's written the like Fireheart like 500 word thing where he's wondering like, mm, why do I care so much about my best friend dating someone else? Clan loyalty aside. Wow, him being mean to me sure is very, very, very, very effective to me. Just bro things.

JULIAN: Just bro things.

LIZ: Just bro things.

PAZ: Yeah, don't worry about it.

LIZ: I don't care, except I do, a lot.

[rain clattering]

JULIAN: I am pulling up--

PAZ: It is storming.

JULIAN: Warrior Cats, the, um.

PAZ: What are you pulling up? Should I wait?

JULIAN: I'm pulling up Archive of--

PAZ: Oh yes.

JULIAN: I'm pulling up Ao3. Don't worry.

PAZ: No, I will wait to hear the statistics.

JULIAN: Oh, what did I-- I did this... How did I do this wrong?

PAZ: This is like a summer thunderstorm. So it'll probably be over in like half an hour. But I hope in that half an hour I don't lose power.

LIZ: Wild. Oh no.

JULIAN: What? There's only five fics?

PAZ: That can't be right.

LIZ: What?!

PAZ: No.

LIZ: No.

JULIAN: There's more Fireheart/Onewhisker than there is Fireheart/Graystripe.

PAZ: Did you just type the tag wrong? I refuse to believe that. I see so much fanart.

LIZ: Okay, I have a lot of respect for the former, but the latter just has the privilege of much more screentime.

JULIAN: Oh, I did it wrong. I did it wrong.

PAZ: Yeah. Okay. I'm like no, this is way more popular than that. There's AMVs for it. Look, listen.

JULIAN: Yeah, we've got 32.

PAZ: That's, you know. I feel like a lot of Warriors fic is-- was on fanfic.net, so.

JULIAN: Right. I also feel like a lot of people are writing like for canonical ships with Graystripe specifically, and also Fireheart, but.

PAZ: Yeah, but I know it is a popular pairing. For good reason.

LIZ: How many? How many are there with the correct tag?

JULIAN: There's only 32.

LIZ: That's a pretty decent amount for something that's probably not mainly on Ao3, and at this point pretty old. I don't know, what's not to love? You have friends to enemies to friends?

JULIAN: I mean, again, though, there are 25 Fireheart/Onewhisker fics.

PAZ: Listen, we got to ring the Fireheart/Onewhisker alarm bells again, because it comes up.

JULIAN: It really does.

PAZ: I think people are onto something, I'm just saying.

LIZ: Yeah, listen.

PAZ: But we'll get to that.

LIZ: We're putting a pin in that for later in the episode.

PAZ: Yes, but our--

JULIAN: I did like-- we're skipping around a little bit, or I'm skipping around a little bit. I did think that the discussion that the clan has about whether to keep Brokentail around is like... I thought that was interesting, even if there is some ableism in the way that they're like oh, he's not a threat anymore. But particularly in terms of like Fireheart feeling conflicted about how much he wants Brokentail to just be dead.

PAZ: And like the reason he stays is this like morality thing of like sending him off to die-- because apparently that's what happens if you're blind. Thanks Warriors-- in the forest is like.

LIZ: Not like there's-- oh my god.

PAZ: Yeah, but it's--

LIZ: It's not like there's no blind animals, or anything.

PAZ: I know. It's stupid.

LIZ: Ugh.

PAZ: But yeah, yeah, it's an interesting display of clan conflict management internally. I do want to note, it almost felt like Brokentail in the camp was less contentious than keeping Cloudkit, which is very funny to me.

JULIAN: God. No, you're right. It was less contentious.

PAZ: Right? There's no reason that keeping a dangerous ex-leader should be solved quicker than deciding to keep a small fluffy kitten.

JULIAN: Yeah.

LIZ: A kitten who's like--

JULIAN: Kittens eat less, for one thing.

LIZ: A kitten from, what they consider like the most least threatening place possible, which is like a pet, right? It's like do we keep this pet, who is a baby, or a war criminal?

PAZ: Yeah, there were like multiple people being like, saying like, we need to throw this child out into the woods to die. And it was like--

LIZ: We need to Victorian style expose this child.

PAZ: And there was only one quickly solved objection to keeping Brokentail.

JULIAN: God.

PAZ: On that topic, I also want to note that everyone was being like, Cloudkit's stupid because he has white fur in the previous set of readings. And then in this reading, it talks about how Frostfur has white fur. I was like, what is going on?

LIZ: Wait, so, so while they were saying that, do we just not see Frostfur being like, oh, I see how it is. Fucking bitches. Fucking babysit your own kids then.

PAZ: I feel like in this set of readings it points out her white fur like twice.

JULIAN: Like that's why she's named that.

LIZ: Yeah. She's not called Treefur. It's Frostfur.

PAZ: Oh my God.

JULIAN: God.

LIZ: They are cats. It's the limited object permanence thing. They're gonna talk shit, and they're gonna turn around and be like, oh, Frostfur, I'm so sorry. I do not mean you. Nothing but respect for-- nothing but respect for my queens.

JULIAN: Oh.

PAZ: Oh my gosh.

JULIAN: Well, I mean, in the next chapter, we do discover that Cloudkit is in fact very good at being a warrior.

PAZ: Yes, I love Cloudkit. He's so cute.

LIZ: He's just a little baby.

PAZ: And he makes bad little kid decisions, which is just cuter.

JULIAN: Yeah, he just wants to be a good part of the clan.

PAZ: I know.

LIZ: He's like, I will go grocery shopping in a blizzard.

JULIAN: Cloudkit coming back with two onions and a potato.

LIZ: Listen, that's like, what? Two latkes. I don't know. That's a lot of onion though. Two really big ones, onion heavy.

JULIAN: I do have a note about that this is what cat racism does. Because I do wonder like, obviously Cloudkit is like, his desire to like, prove himself is very cute. But I also wonder how much of it is him being like, well, if everyone's gonna say that I'm like, not fit to be a warrior, because I know they-- like he can hear them. How much of this is like him trying to prove that he can help provide for the clan?

PAZ: Yeah, I definitely think that's what's happening.

LIZ: Which is also sad.

JULIAN: Yeah, he's just a baby.

PAZ: Apparently, his siblings like him enough to go out into the blizzard with him, though, so there's that.

LIZ: I don't know how, like, their relationship is gonna turn out, or even if it's gonna be explored very much. But I do like the idea of like, here's my extremely extroverted sibling who at the age of baby just hunted a whole animal. And like the other siblings just like, oh, we're introverts or whatever.

JULIAN: Yeah, isn't he like four weeks old or something at this point?

PAZ: It's something like that. Maybe six weeks, I don't know.

LIZ: Just imagine the shape of this, the shape of this small baby.

PAZ: He's too small. I can't protect him.

JULIAN: And like I understand why Bluestar is very pissed, because it is bad if your kits wander out, um, but also like her being like, oh, it's against the warrior code. It's like where?

PAZ: Yeah, what? Where?

LIZ: They're babies. I don't think they know yet.

JULIAN: Point it out to me. Like, at what age are kits responsible for knowing the warrior code?

PAZ: Yeah, how--

JULIAN: Do they go to school?

PAZ: Do they?

LIZ: Are you teaching them ethics? They don't get any teachers besides basically PE coaches by the age of like 12.

PAZ: Yeah, I feel like you learn the warrior code when you're an apprentice.

JULIAN: Like are the queens supposed to be teaching them this in the nursery?

LIZ: The queens have degrees in ethics. They are teaching them right now. You just don't see it.

PAZ: Is this like child labor laws in the warrior code?

JULIAN: Kits cannot work in the mills.

LIZ: I don't care how tiny your beans are.

PAZ: Your paws may be able to reach between these-- I don't know-- twigs, but not allowed.

JULIAN: I just like, this isn't like-- not to make another Untamed reference-- but this isn't like, the warrior code is not like the fucking Lan clan rules that are up on a rock for everyone to look at.

PAZ: Maybe they are. It just hasn't mentioned it.

LIZ: It just seems like--

JULIAN: The cats have been able to read and write this whole time.

LIZ: They just don't want to cause they're all stupid jocks. But yeah, it just seems to be a general consensus thing that when you-- like if you break them and you're an adult, you get attacked. You get in a fight.

PAZ: Yeah, I don't even know.

LIZ: I don't know how much like, do they get like trials? I don't think? I don't remember.

PAZ: I have no fucking idea.

JULIAN: It's also interesting that like Fireheart is specifically like, oh, Graystripe broke the warrior code and like you didn't say shit about him.

PAZ: Yes, I love that line.

JULIAN: Which is very good. But also like he doesn't mention Yellowfang, who definitely broke the warrior code.

LIZ: Well, Fireheart respects girlbosses.

PAZ: She did that a long time ago.

JULIAN: Yeah, that's true.

PAZ: Yeah. But I want to read that sentence because it was really good. "Fireheart swallowed a pang of resentment as he thought of how shamelessly Graystripe, a clanborn cat, was disobeying the warrior code." Get his ass.

JULIAN: Shameless. Graystripe, you hussy.

LIZ: It's also a good little like, like that expression of actual anger against Bluestar for once, it's a good like-- it's a pretty clear way of showing that like, oh wow, it sucks to get like microaggressed. No?

PAZ: Yeah, and the fact that it's not just Fireheart being constantly microaggressed now too. It's like someone he cares about also going through it, I think is definitely--

LIZ: Who's a baby.

JULIAN: Who's a baby! Sorry, I do have a note about, are kittypets the model minority?

LIZ: Oh God.

JULIAN: Which is half a joke and half a like, you know, it does seem like they have to work twice as hard. Or like it's setting that up.

PAZ: Yeah, I don't remember what happens with Cloudkit's arc but if I-- I mean, I don't know because I never read it. But if I had to guess, it's probably gonna be that

JULIAN: Yeah, I super unfortunately do not remember and also did not register it when I read these books at age like 8, 11, somewhere in there, but.

LIZ: Well, I have the gift of prophecy as we know from the finale of our last book, so I'm gonna say that Cloudkit grows up to be like Cloudclaw.

PAZ: Whoa.

LIZ: Very fierce. Yeah. And he's like love some of you guys, hate the rest of you guys because you're extremely xenophobic. I'm out because I am an adult now. Going to found my own clan called Megaboneclan, only if you're hardcore. And not gonna be xenophobic to everyone. Can you come in? Yep, peace. I'm out. Uncle Fireheart, I'll FaceTime you later. Okay, bye.

PAZ: Okay, well, can't wait for that arc.

JULIAN: Perfect.

PAZ: I guess in conjunction with the Cloudkit stuff is like the scenes Fireheart gets with Sandstorm, which are good. I do love and also like, holy shit that it had to take Fireheart straight up saying to Bluestar, like, they should really be like warriors now for that to happen.

JULIAN: Yeah, Bluestar, do your job.

LIZ: I wondered if like how long it was taking was actually like going to be a plot point. But it just seems to be like oh, she's been busy.

JULIAN: Yeah, I kind of thought that it would end up being a plot point.

PAZ: Yeah, but what--

JULIAN: And I don't know if we'll like hear more about it later.

PAZ: What I know that I thought it could be a plot point in conjunction with hasn't really happened yet. So I don't know. But do you think if Fireheart hadn't said anything they would have been apprentices for another like three months?

LIZ: Oh my god. Sucks. Probably like another few days until the next battle happens, right?

PAZ: I don't even know.

JULIAN: Right? The pace of battles in this book is pretty high.

PAZ: Yeah, this book has way more battles. For sure.

JULIAN: Living up to my mom's nickname of Catfight, the series.

PAZ: I guess it makes sense though. Because now Fireheart is like a warrior and...

JULIAN: Right.

PAZ: Going into battle.

LIZ: I'm just, there's so many of them happening. Just imagine the noise of this book like if it was a movie. It would just be like, you know, when you hear cats fight in the alley at night, but like times 100.

JULIAN: Imagining that in surround sound. Incredible.

LIZ: 3D.

PAZ: I just keep thinking about how Harper Collins said no-- or like some of the mods said no violence on the official forums. Like, have you read the book?

JULIAN: Book two we get like, spine biting.

LIZ: God.

PAZ: Yeah. Graystripe finally kills someone. Like--

LIZ: On purpose?

PAZ: --I guess, on purpose directly. He has a high body count prior, as we know, but yeah, I guess he's killed someone before Fireheart has now, like in battle.

JULIAN: Yeah, has Fireheart actually killed anyone?

PAZ: No, I don't think so.

LIZ: I don't think so. He gets close a lot of times. And I'm getting some--

JULIAN: Right, his morals.

LIZ: Yeah, we're getting some conflicts about how like, it's like part of the warrior code is, you know, non lethal damage, apparently.

PAZ: But then no one cares that-- I don't even know. I don't know, because nobody really cares, like Graystripe killed Clawface or whatever. But I guess they were also rogues.

LIZ: Yeah, I don't know.

JULIAN: Is it like, you're only supposed to do non lethal damage to another clan cat?

PAZ: Geez. The implications of that.

LIZ: Interesting.

JULIAN: I'm so iffy on like, what the warrior code says, and also like, what the code of ethics in battle specifically is because like, there was that whole big deal in book one about how bad it was that like that like Redtail killed Oakheart or whatever. And then, in book two it's just like, yeah, you can kill whoever the fuck you want.

PAZ: Yeah, I don't. I have no idea.

JULIAN: I do wonder a little bit if there's anything thematic with the kind of breakdown, I guess, of the warrior code. Because it's like, also definitely against the warrior code to-- which we'll talk about more when we talk about like chapters 29 and 30. But like, definitely against the warrior code to team up with another clan and like attack people.

LIZ: Yeah, I feel like it could be leading up to that. And probably like in a future thing, like the younger generation could be like, this part of the warrior code sucks. We need to reform it and not really question it beyond that.

PAZ: Yeah, I have no idea.

LIZ: Yep, no idea.

PAZ: But that would make sense if it leads up to something like that.

LIZ: Um.

PAZ: Oh, go ahead.

LIZ: No, just wondering where we should go from here, if we're--

PAZ: I have the--

LIZ: If we've covered everything?

PAZ: The last thing is that the Spottedleaf stuff comes back very suddenly.

LIZ: Oh, yeah. Oh my god.

JULIAN: Yeah, it's really out of nowhere.

PAZ: I like legit forgot about her.

LIZ: Yeah, cause it's been like a whole book.

JULIAN: It's been a book and like, Fireheart hasn't thought about her once.

LIZ: No.

JULIAN: Like, I get he's been busy. He's had a lot on his mind. But like, for it to be like, oh, and here she is, like, helping him in battle and appearing to him in a dream. And it's like, yeah, hey, you could have like, dropped a hint about this earlier in the book.

LIZ: Absolutely.

JULIAN: Like maybe he feels a little sad to go to the medicine cat den to see Cinderpaw and be like, yeah, I love Yellowfang but damn, I miss Spottedleaf. You know, just a little something something.

LIZ: Yeah. And without that, it just ends up being really clumsy and not almost funny. Very funny.

PAZ: Very funny, too, because she's described like in a weird...

LIZ: Yeah.

PAZ: This is the sexy she-cat way.

LIZ: No one else gets treated like this.

PAZ: It's like her sweet scent, her soft pink nose. Like what is going on?

JULIAN: Not even Sandstorm, who's definitely getting the romance, like lead up is getting this kind of treatment. And it's like, what's happening?

PAZ: Yeah. It's so funny because it's literally only with her.

JULIAN: This is where I do admit that like me in fourth and fifth grade had a big old crush on Spottedleaf.

PAZ: I can't blame you.

JULIAN: And now I'm reading this book, and I'm like--

LIZ: It was shaped by that. This was written--

JULIAN: --where was this? Like, where did this come from?

PAZ: It's so weird. I don't know if they were like, we're just gonna be consistent with the writing from the first book.

LIZ: You didn't need to be. It's been a book. We wouldn't have remembered. I don't think you need to be able--

JULIAN: Well, it's also--

LIZ: No, go ahead.

JULIAN: Go ahead.

LIZ: No, if she's like a spirit, you don't have to smell her. I don't know.

PAZ: How are we supposed to know she's hot otherwise, Liz?

LIZ: Just talk about her like spots. That's what her name is. Her beautiful spots that remind me of a leaf.

JULIAN: It's also so weird that like all of this stuff, like all of their interactions, like the way that they like touch or whatever is like weirdly sensual, but like the rest of the cats are like, you know, licking and like... in like very nonsensual ways. Like when Sandstorm and Dustpelt become warriors, they lick Bluestar, and it's totally normal. It's treated as completely normal.

LIZ: Yeah, cause it's cat stuff.

JULIAN: Cause that's what cats do. But suddenly, when Spottedleaf is doing the licking, it's like ooooooh.

PAZ: I'm not even angry about it because it's hilarious.

LIZ: God, and we did mention Sandstorm being set up for the romantic interest thing. And it's like, putting those these side by side, there's such a comical difference. She's just like a normal person. She doesn't have a weird smell. I don't even know if we have a flattering description of her that isn't just normal.

PAZ: I mean, like the flattering descriptions of her are like she's really good at fighting.

LIZ: Yeah, and it's like that's nice. Like for a kids romance? Yeah. Kids book romance. Talk about how cool she is instead of what she smells like. What does she smell like? She's a cat.

PAZ: They're really struggling how to write this cat romance. Even though I think they figured it out with Sandstorm. I don't know why...

JULIAN: Well, you know, she smells like pine, mouse, and something uniquely Sandstorm.

PAZ: You mean Spottedleaf? Or wait.

JULIAN: Or Spottedleaf.

LIZ: God.

PAZ: So fucking funny. That's my new Etsy soap scent.

LIZ: Oh, I'm sorry. We have to take a break for a second for a very crucial search.

PAZ: Oh god.

JULIAN: Oh, I wonder if there are any-- while you do your search, I'm going to do mine.

LIZ: Well, it's a-- oh no. It's just soap shaped like cats.

PAZ: Damn.

JULIAN: Damn.

LIZ: I'm so disappointed.

JULIAN: I wanted to look to see if there were any Warrior Cats teas.

LIZ: Oh you're so right.

JULIAN: On that tea site that does the fandom teas. And great news, there are.

PAZ: Oh thank god.

LIZ: [claps] Yes.

JULIAN: They spelled Graystripe's name wrong, though.

LIZ: Is there a dash in between? Maybe it's a character development thing.

JULIAN: Oh, what's Bluestar's tea? Snowbud, white peony, and white blueberry, accented with coconut. That sounds bad.

PAZ: I don't know much about tea. But yeah.

LIZ: When have these British cats ever fucking even seen a coconut?

JULIAN: Oh, here's Ravenpaw, "a calming blend in honor of a nervous apprentice. Includes caramel, decaf vanilla, and mocha nut mate, accented with cocoa nibs."

LIZ: Decaf vanilla.

PAZ: That sounds okay. I think that's it for the first chunk.

JULIAN: Yep.

LIZ: I think so.

PAZ: Okay, well, I will go on to the summaries for the last two chapters. Okay, Chapter 29. The next day, Fireheart can't stop thinking about Spottedleaf's warning and her unique scent and Graystripe's loyalty. The snow has stopped. But Onewhisker from WindClan runs into the camp begging for help because RiverClan and ThunderClan are attacking WindClan.

LIZ: Oh.

PAZ: Bluestar gathers--

LIZ: Sorry, typo on my part. It's ShadowClan.

PAZ: Fuck. Yeah, okay. The snow has stopped, but Onewhisker from WindClan runs into the camp begging for help because RiverClan and ShadowClan are attacking WindClan. Bluestar gathers the clan and says they must help. There is little protest, but Tigerclaw steps in and says he agrees with Bluestar because ShadowClan and RiverClan might attack ThunderClan next. Yellowfang says Bluestar should remain at camp because of her health and Firestar-- bleagh. Fireheart knows it's also because of her last life.

Bluestar tells Tigerclaw to lead the attack parties. Whitestorm takes one party and Tigerclaw gathers warriors for the other, including Fireheart and Onewhisker. You know. Graystripe is with the other party, and Fireheart knows he'll have to choose sides now.

Soon after they leave, Willowpelt says they're being followed, but it turns out to be Cloudkit and Brindleface's kits again. Tigerclaw tests Fireheart's loyalty and says to deal with it, and Fireheart just asks Brackenpaw to take the kits home. Cloudkit protests, but Fireheart promises they'll fight together someday, ignoring the other warriors. Tigerclaw tells Fireheart to lead them to WindClan since he knows the way, and since he probably doesn't trust Onewhisker. Graystripe also knows the way but is too miserable to help. They arrive at the camp, where the battle is already taking place.

Chapter 30. At the battle, WindClan is totally outnumbered by ShadowClan and RiverClan. ThunderClan attacks and more enemy parties show up. As Fireheart battles a RiverClan cat, Onewhisker ends up finishing the fight for him. Fireheart in a totally normal bro way notices the fire in Onewhisker's eyes. In the middle of the battle, Fireheart sees a RiverClan cat about to attack Graystripe and wonders if he'll fight back. But he attacks a ShadowClan cat instead.

Tigerclaw calls out for Fireheart, who tries to get to him, but is attacked by a RiverClan cat, Leopardfur, who is RiverClan's deputy, who he'd met at the gorge where Whiteclaw died. Fireheart calls out to Tigerclaw for help, but he just watches. Fireheart is so angry that he can flip Leopardfur off. He and Tigerclaw give each other the stink eye before returning the battle.

While Fireheart fights a RiverClan cat, he is attacked by Silverstream. As she is about to claw him, Graystripe's voice stops her. Fireheart instinctively attacks when she backs down, but sees Graystripe watching and can't bring himself to hurt Silverstream. She slips away, and Fireheart sees Darkstripe watching him. ShadowClan is eventually driven off, leaving RiverClan alone Fireheart sees Tigerclaw tackle the ShadowClan leader, Crookedstar, going for his neck. He doesn't kill Crookedstar, but ends the battle, and they flee.

Fireheart wonders briefly about Spottedleaf's prophecy about how fire will save the clan. He also thinks about Spottedleaf's warning about warriors he can't trust and finally realizes that that meant Tigerclaw, the guy who loves murder and he knows did at least one murder, and not Graystripe. Tigerclaw confronts Fireheart about letting Silverstream escape, and Fireheart asks if he wanted him to kill her. Tigerclaw also makes insinuations about Graystripe's loyalty, and they both see him return, presumably from checking on Silverstream. When he leaves, Graystripe and Fireheart finally talk about his conflicted feelings, and Fireheart promises he will always be Graystripe's friend. And that is the end of the book.

LIZ: My god.

JULIAN: Action-packed chapters.

PAZ: So much happens. Man, WindClan is literally just minding their own business.

LIZ: It feels like WindClan is like 10 people, and they're just like oh God. Should we move back?

PAZ: Leave them alone. I'm like extra defensive of them because they're my favorite clan, but like what?

JULIAN: Literally, they're just vibing.

PAZ: Yeah, at the gathering, Tallstar was like, y'all are freaks. We're leaving, bye.

LIZ: Do you think they went in going like, Gee, I wonder what everyone else is doing? It sure is great that we solve that whole clan being driven out thing. Let's go see our good friends who helped us. Oh, okay. Mm.

JULIAN: I also don't understand like, just from setting aside morals, as we do in the Warrior Cats books. And from a purely like, you know, political/logistical perspective, why would they go after WindClan who has like two rabbits and not ThunderClan?

PAZ: I have no idea. I assume in the next book we'll find out why the fuck they did that, but.

JULIAN: Like I guess it is like, they're easier targets, but like, it just doesn't seem worth it.

PAZ: Yeah, I think on the way to WindClan's camp, Fireheart notes like there is fucking nothing here.

JULIAN: Like their camp is like a slight hollow in the moor. It's a bunch of gorse.

LIZ: And that's an improvement from the sewer.

JULIAN: Like this is not going to solve RiverClan's food problem.

LIZ: No.

PAZ: No, they can't even catch the rabbits, as we learned in the beginning of the book.

JULIAN: It is very-- the Fireheart/Onewhisker content in these chapters is extremely good

PAZ: It's real. I was doubting it when it first came up from whatever we were searching that.

JULIAN: Yeah, no, I thought it was kind of a crack ship.

PAZ: No.

JULIAN: But no, I'm on board.

PAZ: I'm on board too.

LIZ: If their clans keep consorting, you never know. Maybe in book 3, the political marriage of convenience will be real.

PAZ: Yeah, can't rule it out.

LIZ: Yeah. No.

JULIAN: Like, they're battle husbands.

PAZ: Yeah, I can't remember. Did Onewhisker jump in to get a cat off Fireheart or help him or something?

LIZ: Yeah, yeah. I also didn't put it in the summary. But there's a part where like, I think Tigerclaw is asking, like, what Onewhisker's name is, and Onewhisker is so intimidated that Fireheart just does it for him.

PAZ: Yeah.

JULIAN: Yeah, it's really good.

PAZ: It's good. I hope we keep seeing content for them. I feel like I remember vaguely the Onewhisker arc. Can't be sure though.

JULIAN: Yeah. My note for the beginning of chapter 29 is just, Fireheart, go help your boyfriend. It is interesting. Like, Tigerclaw is right for once, even if it's just because he wants to fight and kill. So it does make him slightly more complex as a villain that he's like--

PAZ: I feel like he's been right a lot. Multiple times in this book.

JULIAN: Yeah, no, you're right.

LIZ: It's so interesting to me because for a lot of the times, Fireheart is agreeing with him.

PAZ: Yeah. And it kind of almost points it out or, like, comes back to it in this chapter about how like, it has made Fireheart forget that like, wait, he's a horrible murderer. But Fireheart remembers that when Tigerclaw tries to murder him. Got a little refresher.

LIZ: That's all it took.

JULIAN: Tigerclaw at it again.

PAZ: Tigerclaw, he really tries to murder indirectly so much. His success rate is not great. But God, is he trying.

LIZ: A for effort.

JULIAN: Um, like a little bit before that, we do get some kind of setting up their conflict when Tigerclaw is like shitty to Fireheart about Cloudkit trying to follow them out. Like, when Fireheart has Brackenpaw send Cloudkit and the other kits back, Tigerclaw is like, "Oh, I didn't think you'd be so keen to fight this battle." And it's like, why would he not? He likes WindClan. But then the-- "Fireheart stared at Tigerclaw and felt the blood pulse through him so his whole body throbbed with rage. 'If only you were keen too,' he retorted, 'you'd give the battle cry instead of keeping us here while WindClan warriors die.'"

LIZ: Get him.

JULIAN: Like right in front of everybody.

PAZ: Yeah, that was a really good scene.

LIZ: Very cathartic.

PAZ: Yeah, I do love Fireheart like, standing up to him.

JULIAN: Yeah, it's good. I do wonder if Tigerclaw would have been so eager to let him die if he hadn't.

PAZ: I feel like Tigerclaw's consistently not liked him, though. So.

JULIAN: That's true.

PAZ: And also I think Tigerclaw's pretty sure like Fireheart knows or something.

JULIAN: Right, I forgot about the whole Ravenpaw situation.

LIZ: He's also made a lot of like insinuations about Fireheart's loyalty specifically when RiverClan comes up, and I wonder if there's like, if he thinks something else about what happened there, or if he's mistaking, like, I don't know, Fireheart for being like the spy or something that RiverClan talked about. Cause he's like--

PAZ: I feel like he knows it's Graystripe, though.

LIZ: Yeah, like by the end, I think that's it, but I don't know. Maybe it's just like, themes.

JULIAN: Yeah, definitely. He's definitely like making a lot of insinuations. He loves-- he loves to do murder and he loves to insinuate.

LIZ: It's very fun to read.

PAZ: Yeah, I'm excited for that conflict to continue. Tigerclaw is such a good fun villain.

LIZ: Yeah, I can't believe they didn't get him, though. By the end of this book.

JULIAN: I know. The moment, where like, he's just standing there watching Fireheart get like his belly clawed is so good.

LIZ: Yeah, it's a great, like, the way the scene is written is really good.

JULIAN: Like, in general, the battle scenes are like, you know, very well written. I understand why all of the RPs were like 90% battle scenes by volume.

LIZ: They're very good action scenes.

JULIAN: Yeah, which is hard to write.

LIZ: Yeah, they're cut, like, cut through with like these, I guess bullet time like, personal character conflicts that like really give it a little extra flavor, so it's not like a slog. It's like, so much stuff is happening now. I have to deal with this? Oh, boy. In a good way.

JULIAN: Yeah, no, they do a good job of making the fight scenes also deal with like character's emotional arcs.

PAZ: Yeah, it's like the fight scenes are used to, like drive the personal plots forward, I feel like. Gotta say, though, Fireheart taking Spottedleaf's warning to be not clearly about Tigerclaw. I was like, Oh my god.

LIZ: Oh my God.

JULIAN: I mean, I gotta say, I wasn't sure it was about Tigerclaw because I had also been lulled into a false sense of security by Tigerclaw being mostly normal.

PAZ: Oh, I was like--

JULIAN: Throughout this book.

PAZ: I was like, it's fucking Tigerclaw.

JULIAN: I thought it might be Onewhisker like for a little bit.

PAZ: No.

JULIAN: Because there's a portion in the book where like Tigerclaw seems to doubt that Onewhisker will lead them to the camp. And I was like, Oh shit, is it a trap?

PAZ: I have no doubt about Onewhisker.

JULIAN: I doubted him.

PAZ: Oh my gosh.

LIZ: That would have been very tasty, though. Just like, my good friend, who I saved, who seems to be an upstanding young gentleman? Oh, the betrayal. What are these conflicted feelings I have? I won't think about them. Except I will.

PAZ: No, I also was just like I didn't suspect it because I'm like WindClan is just staying in their lane. Like, why would they fake this?

LIZ: If we want to go full AU, it could be like oh, WindClan was like, had their hand forced, and now all the three clans, two willingly, are converging on ThunderClan. But that's-- I don't know. That's just, it's not as interesting to me.

PAZ: No.

JULIAN: Yeah, no, I was fully as dumb as Fireheart, despite having read this book before.

PAZ: Okay, Fireheart gets a pass, then.

LIZ: Fireheart speaks to a certain little dumb cell in all our brains at some point. That's why he's so relatable. And also, it's like you said, Tigerclaw is being so normal throughout most of the book. He did just become mean teacher again, instead of like, evil war criminal.

JULIAN: He was saving it up for the last two chapters.

LIZ: It's his ult.

PAZ: Gotta press Q for Tigerclaw.

LIZ: Press Q for war crime.

PAZ: Oh my gosh.

JULIAN: The bit with like Silverstream and Graystripe is, you know, there it is.

PAZ: Yeah, Graystripe sure is gonna keep causing problems, huh?

LIZ: Mm-hmm. It's like, I'm not mad that it's happening, but we haven't seen anything of them. So it's just like a plot point rather than any investment, which is kind of what it's for, I guess.

PAZ: Yeah, I don't think we're like, we're not supposed to sympathize with Graystripe. So probably why it's not super shown.

LIZ: No.

PAZ: I mean, like, not completely sympathize.

JULIAN: We're not supposed to. That doesn't stop like most of the fandom.

PAZ: Oh no.

JULIAN: At least like what I-- I'm sure that there were like, opposing camps. But what I saw of it was very much like Graystripe did nothing wrong.

PAZ: Well, I'm here to say in 2021, Graystripe did a lot of things wrong.

JULIAN: Because we were all 12 and thought that being in love meant you didn't have any responsibilities.

LIZ: And you know, at 12, you're allowed to do that. Go on.

PAZ: I'm sure it'll all end fine.

JULIAN: Definitely, definitely nothing will go wrong. I do have a note.

LIZ: Yeah, absolutely.

JULIAN: There's a moment where, like, Tigerclaw is attacking Crookedstar, the RiverClan leader. And like, he like bites Crookedstar's neck. And then there's a moment that it's like, "Crookedstar's pained screech told Fireheart that Tigerclaw had missed the spine." And it's like, oh geez.

LIZ: Jesus.

PAZ: These cats are fucking each other up.

JULIAN: Tigerclaw loves to try to kill leaders.

PAZ: I read that as him like purposely not killing him. But.

JULIAN: No, I think you're right.

PAZ: You know? He's probably really considering it.

LIZ: Mm hmm. If it was just like--

JULIAN: He doesn't get to do any murders.

LIZ: Yeah. Okay, I'm looking at the summary here. I didn't really write much about the prophecy because the summary's already pretty long. But we should probably recap because I think that was way from the beginning of the book, if not further back.

PAZ: The fire prophecy?

LIZ: Yeah, it's like how fire will save ThunderClan.

PAZ: Yeah, that's from the first book, but I think it was reiterated at the top in this book.

LIZ: Yes, so I think Fireheart thinks that fire refers to Tallstar, who just looks so cool and handsome in the sunlight. And then he's like, is it? Is it really him though? Because WindClan is doing so bad. So Fireheart, our protagonist, who's orange, is like, I got to think about this. That's it.

PAZ: He has a lot of other things on his mind.

JULIAN: He's a sweet boy.

PAZ: He doesn't know yet he's the protagonist.

LIZ: That's true. He doesn't have that meta brain, which is better. Fireheart turns to look directly at the reader. What else is there? I guess we could talk about the last scene.

PAZ: Yeah, where like Fireheart and Graystripe kind of make up.

LIZ: Yeah. I think it's sweet.

JULIAN: Yeah.

PAZ: Yeah, it was sweet.

JULIAN: It's like a pretty abrupt ending, I feel like.

LIZ: Mm-hmm.

PAZ: Yeah.

LIZ: How did the last one end? Like the last book, I don't quite remember.

PAZ: I feel like it was them being made warriors, right?

JULIAN: Um, let's see. Yeah, the last scene is them becoming warriors.

PAZ: I mean, like one thing about Fire and Ice, I think, is it had less of an overarching plot. It was like a lot of little plot threads, I feel like, because like we said, Tigerclaw wasn't really being the central villain in it.

JULIAN: Yeah, it definitely feels like it's setting up a lot of stuff for like later books, in a way that-- which makes sense based on what we've read about how the first book was kind of originally supposed to be standalone.

LIZ: Yeah. It's definitely widened like the circle of characters and just places a lot.

PAZ: Yeah, I don't think it's bad. It just like, I guess it would lead to a less decisive ending because it's like, well, a lot of stuff came up, and nothing really got solved yet. So.

JULIAN: Yeah, it is nice to like, wrap up on this Fireheart-Graystripe scene.

PAZ: Yeah.

JULIAN: When their conflict/relationship has been such a throughline.

PAZ: Yeah, I do. That's like the major throughline for sure is Fireheart and Graystripe. I mean, on the old version of the cover, that's the little picture is them sitting next to each other.

LIZ: Aw.

PAZ: In front of the moon.

LIZ: Aww.

JULIAN: Yeah, it's a good cover.

PAZ: Yeah, it is.

JULIAN: The original one.

LIZ: I also like seeing the two endings compared to each other because it's like, when they're kids and the ending is them. But you know, they're on good terms. And then when they're a little older, it's still them, but it's much more difficult.

PAZ: Yeah, that's a good mirror ending.

JULIAN: Man, I forgot how much fighting cats is on the cover of the...

PAZ: Yeah, I have. I have my like, old book with the old cover. I think the scene behind them is just the final battle at WindClan.

JULIAN: Yeah, here. I'm going to upload it to the server so you can see it, Liz.

LIZ: Oh, yeah. Wow. I love that.

JULIAN: They're just fighting.

LIZ: I love the background too. It's very, well, evocative of the title, but that's like good color contrast.

JULIAN: Yeah, it's nice.

LIZ: Oh, you guys gotta see the Polish cover for Fire and Ice.

PAZ: Ooh.

JULIAN: Oh, please show us.

LIZ: It is not what you're expecting.

[laughter]

JULIAN: Oop!

PAZ: It's uh, it's Graystripe and Silverstream, I think, being...

JULIAN: They're just, uh--

PAZ: Oh my god, look at Fireheart way in the background.

JULIAN: Wait. Oh no!

[laughter]

PAZ: Just like Graystripe and Silverstream at the front doing a little like cat affectionate headbutt, and then way in the background, very distant, is little orange Fireheart.

LIZ: [wheezing] I'm crying.

JULIAN: The artist for the Polish books was like, they shipped it.

PAZ: Yeah, they fucking did, apparently. They were like, uh...

JULIAN: They were like, Graystripe and Silverstream are in love. Fuck y'all.

LIZ: Listen, Polish cover artist, you follow your heart. They gave Graystripe this very like-- these are-- I want to reiterate the style of this, which is just kind of like normal cats but a little more expressive. Like they made Graystripe look very like, romantic interest, handsome face.

JULIAN: Yeah, this is-- he's got like, luxurious chest fur.

PAZ: Big ol face.

LIZ: It's very funny. [laughing] Fireheart just way in the back. Little speck.

PAZ: Oh god. I don't know if I have anything else to add right now.

JULIAN: Oh, I do really quickly want to-- while we're looking at covers, the simplified Chinese cover is very good.

LIZ: Oh, boy.

PAZ: Oh, I love that.

LIZ: [gasps] Oh wow. Who is that?

JULIAN: It's got-- yeah, it's Fireheart but drawn with the roundest face in the world, kind of emerging from like, between branches above the snow. It's really good colors.

LIZ: This cover gives me the vibe of like those-- when you're like a kid, you read books about animals, but like, they're just regular ones and not like, society ones. And it's about surviving winter.

PAZ: Yeah, that's exactly the vibe.

JULIAN: Yeah, it definitely has the vibe of like, I feel like children's book covers from the 80s were all like-- or like a lot of them were like, painted in a way, like a very specific way. And this gives me those vibes. Strong use of shadow. Anyway.

PAZ: I mean, is that it?

JULIAN: Yeah, I don't have anything else.

PAZ: I still have to decide if we're gonna do like a wrap up episode. I don't know, could be fun. We could read Graystripe hate.

[giggling]

JULIAN: Oh my god.

LIZ: Oh, the one we wrote, you mean?

JULIAN: Oh, it would be fun-- I can like do some digging on the forums and see if I can find any like old discussions of Graystripe/Silverstream.

PAZ: Yeah, that would be great. Um, I don't know if we're gonna do the second segment in this episode because it was pretty long, like set of chapters. And I haven't eaten dinner, so.

JULIAN: Oh, no!

LIZ: We can end it now. I do have one last cover for us to close out with. So this is, according to my very quick google search, is the Fire and Ice UK cover. And--

PAZ: Oh, what?

LIZ: Here it is. [laughing]

PAZ: What is this font?

LIZ: I think one of them is Papyrus.

JULIAN: It's not Papyrus, but it's like a very, like, jokey--

LIZ: It's very close.

JULIAN: Like handwriting font.

PAZ: It's in the Nickelodeon slime color. I want to be clear.

JULIAN: So the top of the cover is just like a very HDR picture of a cat. Just like eyes to nose. I assume it's supposed to be Graystripe. It's a gray cat. Bright yellow eyes. And then against a white background, Warriors: Fire and Ice. In the Nickelodeon slime font. And then in this sort of vaguely Old English font, "friend or foe? One cat must decide." And then a little picture of an icy river.

LIZ: Beautiful.

JULIAN: I love the splash text.

LIZ: [dramatically] "Friend or foe? One cat must decide." And he has to take the whole book.

JULIAN: Cause that's not what's happening.

LIZ: No.

JULIAN: Oh. Also Erin Hunter's name in this is in all lowercase in this font that reminds me very strongly of like--

PAZ: Twilight?

JULIAN: YA romance novels.

PAZ: It reminds me of Twilight somehow.

LIZ: Yeah.

JULIAN: Yeah, I think it's the long-- the H has like a really long swoosh to it.

PAZ: The fact that there are three distinct fonts on this cover that in no way match.

JULIAN: Graphic design is our passion.

PAZ: Oh, God.

JULIAN: Wait, if this is the UK cover, were the books published in the-- the writers are British!

PAZ: Maybe, I don't know. It's a special cover.

LIZ: Didn't we cover this? Didn't-- yes. Although it does say this is sourced from Pinterest. So I couldn't tell you.

PAZ: Mm, okay, I don't know.

LIZ: Okay, let me double check.

JULIAN: Let me look at the wiki, because they have all the covers also.

LIZ: [typing] Ice UK. I'm getting conflicting theories here.

PAZ: Oh my gosh.

LIZ: Well, it's beautiful to me regardless. It's real in my heart.

JULIAN: No, I'm seeing it on the wiki as the English language, the UK edition.

PAZ: What happened?

JULIAN: And then there's an alternate version with the US cover, but bad.

PAZ: Oh my god.

LIZ: No.

JULIAN: It's like the US cover but they messed up all the sizes and also desaturated the battle scene so it's like really yellow instead of red. It's bad to look at.

LIZ: Oh yeah, I see it. It's not good.

PAZ: How did they mess up the--

JULIAN: I don't like it. I mean, it's not awful, but it's just like, not as good.

PAZ: Oh, I see it. It's not as good at all.

LIZ: That's like a Photobooth filter. They put a little frame around Fireheart and Graystripe there.

PAZ: Yeah, they went to the photo booth together.

LIZ: Aw, they're making up. Bluestripe. Sorry, Blue, Blueheart. Bluestar. Wow, I went through a lot of them there. Bluestar took them both aside to say, I hate it when you guys fight. I got you tickets to the county fair. Go have fun.

JULIAN: Sorry, I know we're just talking about covers now. I do-- the Japanese version.

PAZ: Oh, yeah. I love all the Japanese covers.

LIZ: Oh my god.

JULIAN: Which has Graystripe and Silverstream sitting next to each other but they're drawn. [laughs] They're drawn in just such a style.

PAZ: It's a very fun style. It's not a bad style.

JULIAN: It's very good. No, I love it. It's very charming. Like they're a little cockeyed. It's very folk art-y. And there's like a little red moon? Sun? Question mark? Behind them.

LIZ: Graystripe is extremely fluffy in this one, but he looks very well groomed. Like he just combed himself for his date.

PAZ: He probably did.

JULIAN: He's gotta get smooth. He's gotta get silky.

LIZ: Yeah, if you put this on, like, a dinnerware set, I'd be like, cute.

PAZ: Yeah?

JULIAN: Yeah, I would buy a mug with this on it.

PAZ: But is that is that gonna do for us, you think, for Fire and Ice? Well, for now, maybe.

JULIAN: Yep.

LIZ: Yeah.

PAZ: All right. And as always, you can find the show @staircast on twitter.com. Send in questions, [email protected].

JULIAN: Tell us how you feel about Graystripe and Silverstream.

PAZ: Yeah, you know what, maybe write in.

LIZ: Wait.

PAZ: Maybe, maybe, on our maybe book wrap up podcast, we'll get into that.

LIZ: And if you-- while you're on Twitter looking for us, if you want to find a high res-- well, a middle res glossy JPEG of that Silverstream and Graystripe Polish cover in wallpaper size, you totally can. You just have to Google it. And it shows right up. It's like the first result. So for the fans out there, I hope you find it.

PAZ: Well, yeah, I think--

JULIAN: We can also tweet it.

PAZ: We can do that, maybe, if we remember. But I do want to hear everyone's Graystripe thoughts now.

JULIAN: Yeah. Tell us how you feel about everyone's worst friend. Not to bias the audience.

PAZ: We would never. But other than that, that's gonna do it for us. So until next time, may StarClan light your path. Bye.

JULIAN: Bye.

LIZ: Bye.

[outro music]

#ep 15 #transcript #fire and ice ep #press q for war crimes

0 notes

polyamradiotranscripts · 6 years

Text

ep.10 Polyamorous Parenting with Tikva Wolfe

polyAM Radio Episode Ten-Polyamorous Parenting with Tikva Wolf

[Begin Transcript]

[Sophie]: Hello everybody and welcome to polyam radio the best show on the internet about polyamory that weird relationship thing you do with lots of other people

["Crazy little thing called love" by Queen plays]

[Sophie]: hello everybody welcome to polyamradio my name is Sophie Last-Name-Redacted and I'm here with a very special guest this week why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself

[Tikva]: Hi I'm Tikva Wolf

[Sophie]: I use she her pronouns

[Tikva]: I use they them pronouns

[Sophie]: cool cool I gotta tell ya I am totally geeking out over here because uhh Tikva is one of my absolute all time favorite like polyamory heroes pretty much everything I know about polyamory that doesn't come from my own ya know personal foolish mistakes comes from Tikva's comic Kimchi Cuddles, I do wanna let listeners know that this is the second time that we've tried to record and just this morning my computer totally puked on me uhh so I am working with a spare that I rented from the library and uhh we're doing the best we can but all of my show notes all of my everything is gone so we're gonna make the best of a bad situation and kinda plow through this but that's what we've got going on over here so if it seems like maybe things are a little different this tim uhh that's whats up, so I'm guessing though that despite some potential sound quality problems that this is gonna be our best episode yet because we've got Tikva with us

[Tikva]: yay, yeah hopefully the technology will cooperate with us this time, if not we'll just have [uninteligable] conversation [laughs] [uninteligable] [laughs]

[Sophie]: yeah you caught me there's no podcast this was a trojan horse I just wanna talk to you and be your friend

[Tikva]: aww [laughs] again, this happens to me all the time [laughs]

[Sophie]: ya know somehow I believe that so our topic this week is gonna be polyamourus parenting but before we get started, Tikva why don't you tell everybody a little bit about yourself because ya know not everyone has internet stalked you like I have so uhh ya know they may not know every little detail or certainly they may not know anything about you and that would be a real shame so uh why don't you give us a little exposition ya know

[Tikva]: well I write a webcomic about polyamory which I really is just about relationships and my relationships happen to be in a polyamourus container umm I so I write largely just about my own life experiences and umm uhh people seem to think that it's relateable uhh I think that uhh the the medium of uhh comics is a good umm way to convey ideas and experiences because they happen in such a small little uhh snippet so there really easy to digest and it's really easy to convey uhh uhh an experience or umm like a complex idea in a way that is umm yeah just easier to digest

[Sophie]: yeah absolutely I think you're spot on ya know uhh I think comics are a really effective way of conveying a kind of slice of life ya know we always think about umm ya know maybe books and movies and other kinds of media but certainly even podcasts I mean it's hard to crank out good media on a reliable basis I mean I'm doing a podcast ya know one podcast for every ya know shove out an episode every other week I mean and you're cranking out what ya know two or three comics a week I mean that's

[Tikva]: well when I first started I umm I didn't think anybody would read it but I just started putting I always made comics about my relationships and I had a partner who uhh said you should write a you should write a webcomic about polyamory and I just started putting them online as a joke between us but umm and then all of the sudden all of these people were reading it but when I first started putting them up I had a bunch of them so I was just putting up like two of them a day so very quickly I had a lot of content in like the span of a couple weeks and then I calmed down and then I started making like I think for a while though I was making like one a day umm for quite some time and then uhh it went down to like umm like like two or three a week and recently I've been like writing a bunch of other things so it's been more like one a week umm yeah I've been working on a lot of articles and graphic novels recently umm so that's been taking up a large chunck of my time umm and it's it's amazing to me like remembering when I first started I was like I was a young mom [laughs] and, so I had a baby that I was watching all the time and I was also, ummm, I was also an art teacher at a camp so I was like doing that uhh part time but I so I was like writing these comics, like, at like two in the morning in the bathroom [laughs] it was just like a time that I had to do that umm which is why they look so shitty like go back and look at the original ones it's hilarious to me cause I'm like woah look at this but umm but yeah people like them [laughs] so I kept going, I'm still doing it

[Sophie]: yeah absolutely ya know you really have your finger on the pulse of what it feels like to be ya know in a polyamorous relationship and your comics uhh show showcase that very well ya know I remember a few weeks ago there was one that really spoke to me and it was uhh oh ya know my partner has this new partner I have a new metamour, I actually talked about this on the show, listeners might remember, but this new partner they're so or this new metamour they're so fancy and they're so put together ohh boy is that what they like is, oh man cause I'm just kind of a slob and ya know I'm ya know I'm pretty bad at putting myself together and getting all dolled up and everthing and uhh actually umm I'm going to try to do that later on today because today the day we're recording this listeners is actually my birthday so we're gonna try to go out later and ya know have a bit of a fancy nice evening

[Tikva]: it's your birthday

[Sophie]: yeah today's my birthday

[Tikva]: well happy birthday

[Sophie]: well thank you

[Tikva]: next monday is my birthday

[Sophie]: oh well happy birthday

[Tikva]: [laughs]

[Sophie]: I'm guessing that in a few months when this comes out we're both gonna get a lot of belated birthday wishes uh uh yeah I just I just really wanted to say again I really think you have your finger on the pule of what it's like to be in a polyamorous relationship ya know I don't think I've ever looked at one of your comics and gone oh that doesn't really resonate with me, even when it's dipicting situations that I've never been in uh it ya know it's really just incredible how it, uhh, how universal some of these feelings and experiences are

[Tikva]: thank you yeah it's I think its interesting that it cause I think of the comic as primarily as being about non-monogamy but a lot of people that follow it regularly are monogamous people who feel like it's helpful for them to and have uhh has uhh situations that are applicable to their relationships as well

[Sophie]: yeah ya know well we always talk about on this show that ya know this show is explicitly polamourous and it's very important to me that everything we talk about is through the lens of polyamory because frankly there's more than enough people out there giving relationship advice to monogamous people and with a monogamous perspective ya know stuff like oh well you'll find the one and everything like that uhh but ya know uhh I don't think that there's ever has been or probably ever will be even a single episode that won't have some good little nugget in there that a monogamous person could ya know take away and use and apply to their life right I always say that I think that ya know this advice is applicable to everyone ya know good advice is good advice and certainly not ya know all of it is applicable ya know things about ya know how do I interact with my metamor maybe aren't all that ya know uhh applicable but ya know uhh this show is explicitly queer too uhh just like your comic and I don't think that there's anything or I should say that I think that there are very few things in here that would not also benefit a straight person and I guess ya know another thing I wanna bring up is that ya know your comic is so intensly queer

[Tikva]: [uninteligable] queer [laughs] yeah I'm pretty intensly queer that makes sense

[Sophie]: well ya know a lot of the media we get is far from perfect and a lot of the queer representation that we get is uhh ya know really problematic and just uhh not the best and ya know this is something that's made by and for queer people and I think it's something that's really special, so Tikva let me ask you umm when you started out ya know you're a parent and you're polamourous and when you started out as a parent were you intending on ya know raising your child by yourself were you intending on uhh working with somebody else ya know as part of like a two person team or were you always planning on having a small polycule kind of ya know helping raise this child ya know how did that start out because I think for a lot of people umm ya know they have a child and then find themselves engaging in polyamory and everything and most of the time I think people don't really find themselves starting off of saying okay yes I'm going to have this kid and I have a team that's working with me ya know for this and we're all going to raise this kid as a polamourous situation together, I think that that's pretty uncommon so if I can ask, how did it start out for you, were people starting off involved with it or did you kinda rope people in as time went on because not that there's anything wrong with it but I think a lot of people find themselves getting roped into a family and that's ya know their introcution to it

[Tikva]: right yeah [uninteligable] that'll happen a lot even in just monogamous relationships because of step parents and things like that um which is actually how I started out as a parent I am a step parent umm that my uhh the person who I was romantically partnered with at the time and who is my co-parent and umm uhh and uhh one of the main characters of my comic umm he had a when I met him he had a son who was about eight from a previous maraige and umm that kid is super awesome he is not a kid anymore he is in college now umm but so I started out being a step parent and having all of those types of experiences sort of like umm I mean very similar to what a lot of people in monogamous relationships would have experienced being a step parent umm and I just happen to be polyamorous and we actually when we started our relationship I was openly polamourous and he identified as monogamous umm but we tried to find a balance inbetween those things so we sort of at first I was in other relationships and then we took a time period where when I wasn't in any other relationships at the time we took a few years where it was just us when I got pregnant myself umm because that was what seemed like it made sense at the time and umm then eventually the two of us just happened to get into a relationship with another couple who were polyamorous we all just sort of fell in love with each other so that we were just all of the sudden this quad and they loved our child we just sort of fell in this very sweet co-parenting situation where there were four adults to one baby she was about maybe one or two I think two when we met them umm we're not all together anymore actually not with any of those people anymore in a romantic context but umm what he he my original co-parent obviously still my co-parent and a very important person in my life umm and he ended up uhh feeling like being, romantically monogamous was important enough to him that he wanted to do that umm not with me, because it's something that is important to me to be not doing, umm so we we ended up finding that our relationship works better, at least for right now with the romantic elements, not there, and which is like worked out surprisingly well we sort of think like our, society sort of tells us that uhh the romantic part of the relationship is neccecary for you to be emotionally connected and like if the romantic part isnt there the sexual part isn't there then like its there's a problem or like theres a, like you're supposed to be mad at each other and all these things and I, don't think that that's true

[Sophie]: ya know, uhh, when we talk about polyamory and relationship anarchy and things like that it's important to remember that aside from being a gift, and a bottomless resource love is also infinitely varied and takes many forms some of these forms are platonic and we tend to call these people friends and everything uuhh some of them are romantic and we have other words for that but I think the term friend for some of the relationships that I have it's not the right word and I wish we had a better one uhh because the feeling I lo- the feeling of love I have for some of my ya know quote unquote friends is so intense ya know I would go to the ends of the earth for some of these people uhh even farther perhaps than some of my casual partners which feels weird to say but the reality is is that these people are your family, ya know that's who you've chosen to build your life around uhh and that's ya know a wonderful beautiful thing ya know and that doesn't mean just because a relationship is no longer romantic doesn't mean that uh a failure by any means ya know

[Tikva]: yeah

[Sophie]: we talked about breakups in a previous episode and uh ya know in those situations where a relationship ends that doesn't nececarily mean it was a failure and just because a relationship continues that doesn't mean it is a success there are a lot of relationships that continue uhh pretty much ad nauseum [laughs] and are in no way succeses at all and ya know I think that that's very important to remember uhh ya know there's a whole lot more to a relationship than it just continuing forever, so let me as you ya know uhh if someone's thinking about becoming a polyamorous parent or inviting someone into uh to help them parent and and kind of starting to have that kind fo polycule parenting structure or thinking of joining one themselves is thre any advice that ya know you'd want uhh that you'd want to give to them when they're just starting out

[Tikva]: mmmm, well I guess that there's so many variables I don't think that there's like one particular thing that would be like universally helpful but I think I keep telling people, cause I run a a polamourous uhh meet up group in the ashville area and umm there are a lot of parents in the group who want uhh resources about umm about polyamorous parenting and umm sort of like how do I, x, y, z, and a lot of the specific things that they bring up in the group are not actually neccecarily polyamorous questions they're more like they're more things that are about step parenting and things like that like combining families like kids who come from different parents like those kids getting along or not getting a long and things like that and combining households and sharing resources those types of questions and like and I think that there are I mean there are a lot of resources that exist that are not written for us but it doesn't matter [laughs] they're for there are a lot of resources out there for step parents and for for people who are combining families like in in a monogamous way but ya know like bringing in kids from another partner and things like that and so becdause there are a lot of reosurces that already exist for step parents umm I feel like we can just use those resources that already exist and take out the things that apply to us and our families and it doesn't matter that they're written for monogamous people because it's really just a lot of it is the same stuff concerning kids and like bringing in kids from other families and having, being a parent to a kid that is not from your body like these sorts of things like the same sorts of things can come up in a monogamous or non monogamous relationship so using the resources that alreday exist I think is a good idea and also there are new things coming out all the time umm I think doctor sheff, is a good resources doctor elizabeth sheff has done a lot of research into polamourous families and has written a few books on that topic umm

[Sophie]: is that chef like yes chef cut the vegetable chef or-

[Tikva]: of uh it's spelt s-h-e-f-f

[Sophie]: [laughs] okay cool yeah no I just thought our listeners might wanna be ablso to google that

[Tikva]: yeah look up doctor sheff she's done a lot of writing on polyamorous families based on reserach that she's done umm that spans decades so it's good stuff umm she wrote a book the polamorists next door which is helpful also I think just like one of the main things that can really help people who have any sort of difficutly just like having other people to talk to about it and umm so like being a part of a like a poly meet up group and maybe even if like maybe in your area if there's a poly meet up group and there isn't already a family specific subgroup you can start one, like anounce to the group like hey I'm a polyamorous family I want to hang out with other families maybe we could have like play dates or like um maybe we just hang out and talk about uhh like sort of form a support group around a specific topic can be very helpful

[Sophie]: yeah absolutely so the next question has to do with stigma uhh ya know families like ours and relationsips like those that we engage in aren't always the most widely accepted I guess I'm just wondering ya know for you how has ya know polyamorous stigma played a role in ya know your ability to have a family and make it feel like a cohesive unit and ya know feel like uhh ya know feel like you belong within a larger society

[Tikva]: umm I think it varies family to family especially depending on what where they live and who they're surrounded by what they're life looks like, I have been very lucky in my life to be in a part of the country that like is pretty open minded and surrounded by people who are also open minded my family is very open minded so I haven't had a lot of difficutly myself I'm very luck in that way, there was one incident in which a neighbor uhh like found out that I wrote a webcomic about polyamory and was very concerned and like called social services on us to like get to be investigated to see if any shady shenaigans were going on such as sex duneons in front of children and stuff like that which was obviously not [laughs] what was happening and like someone came to the house to interview us about that which was stressful and just because of the I guess it's not neccecarily a inherently stressful situation but it's pretty understandable that that would be stressful like social services suddenly showing up all things considered it wasn't as stressful as as it sounds [laughs] because umm the woman who showed up was very nice and she was very understanding and she and I was like woah this is so bizzare and umm she was like so you write this webcomic about polyamory I was like yes lets- I'll show you the one I wrote today it was like something about like my character Marco like [laughs] telling like saying something about like how it's okay to have the emotional experience that you're having she was like oh this sounds very grounded and good advice sounds like you're a great parent actually here I'm wasting your [uninteligable] [laughs] kind of like, it was funny because it was so bizzare and I didn't feel like I was in danger of losing my child or anything like that so like that part wasn't frightening but it was irritating that it was wasting this person's time and like this person who should be doing important work for other families that actually need the help was being wasted on this situation and becdause of beuracracy she had to come back a couple of times or at least twice something like that happened

[Sophie]: well and it's invasive

[Tikva]: sure yeah

[Sophie]: sounds like the neighbor was a real asshole

[Tikva]: yeah [laughs] I mean this person was like, uniformed because of stigma this person like heard the word polyamorous assumed that it meant umm like sexually uhh something some dramatic thing about sex and which it is also some people are have a lot of sex and that's fine but I'm not really [laughs] it was so funny like at the time my child was younger umm she's almost eight now she was like three at the time when this happened three or four or something like that and umm [laughs] it was like it uhh a moment in time where I the social worker was asking questions about sex she had all these questions about sex like you have sex uhh like uhh do you have orgies in front of children and those types of things and I'm like no like I'm at a place in my life where I just don't even have sex [laughs] like I'm a young mom like I just

[Sophie]: yeah if you're a young parent you're pretty much not having sex that's pretty much the end of it

[Tikva]: [uninteligable] like seriously like how many young parents like really have a lot of sex like I don't have time to have sex and [laughs] I, and and there's certainly nothing wrong with parents who do have lots of sex and do go to sex duneons and things as long as it's not in front of the kids but it was such a bizzare experience cause I like wasn't even having very much sex and like these questions it was just like it was very surreal and umm and funny but um but yeah so there's certainly a stigma around being polyamorous linking it to sexual deviance which in our culture which is so puritan still and afraid of sex can be problematic because then people make moral judgements about you based on sex which is like awkward if you are a person having a lot of sex or it's awkward if you're just aperosn having average amounts of sex and it's for me in times when I it was especially aggrivating to me when I felt people would say thin- like make little comments make little jokes about something along the lines of like like not neccecarily slut shaming but like something on that spectrum those types of jokes about being polyamorous at me [laughs] and my response internally would be like I'm probably having less sex than you monogamous person and just like have that response like I just always thought that was funny and it's something that still happens with people that i know like friends of mine people still make umm just uniformed little jokes cause they don't actually really understand yeah it's certainly annoying that there's such a stigma aroung sex in our culture umm in a way that like makes it weird if you're having too much or not enough sex ya know accoring to whatever, whoever's keeping track [laughs] there's a- people like think there's something wrong with you if you're having more or less than whatever is the appropriate average and like and the label polyamorous umm like certainly gives people like an assumtion a lot of the time about where you are on that which can be awkward for people who do have a lot of sex too because umm because there's this stigma so people I think it seems like a lot of polyamorous feel a pressure to like make themselves seem quote unquote normal when they talk about their relationships and like emphasize oh it's all about love and all this even though that's true umm I feel like there's this pressure to talk about it that way and sort of minimize the sexual component too which is also not good and like really whatever is nourishing for people in their relationships should just be fine and it's not anybody else's business

[Sophie]: ya know and I think it's very interesting when we're talking about it from our perspective because we're not just polyamorous, we're queer and certainly not all queer people are polyamorous but a lot of polyamorous people are queer and uhh ya know there is an aspect of added stigma there ya know we really are only what five years if that ya know from people having very public very heated and uhh kind of horrible conversations about whether or not any queer person is fit to be a parent at all ya know and ya know now it's getting to be more taboo to say that but ya know certainly we are not far removed from that so I think it's not at all surprising when we talk about the struggles that polyamorous people go through and when we talk about polyamorous queer people ya know people who are part of both of those groups are gonna face some added stigma and it's unfortunate but it is what we're dealing with right now so moving back into our main topic ya know I love where the tangent when but as someone who uhh sees myself helpfully going where you are in a few years ya know I just have so many questions ya know I uhh I'm not a polyamorous parent and I never have been like I said a minute ago I see myself going that direction but I'm not there now and so when I think of like benefits that come from it I can only really speculate and I guess some of them that come to mind for me ya know there's that old adage it takes a village to raise a child and the more positive adult role models you have as a child I think the better off you are and then of course if you are struggling with some sort of disability having kind of a team of people that are on your side and are helping you out and everybody's pitching in ya know a little bit can make it a whole lot easier than kind of trying to do it on your own but in your experience ya know aside from maybe those things uhh exactly ya know in your experience what uhh ya know what are the real benefits to a polyamorous parenting situation

[Tikva]: umm well for me like when I was talking about before when I was co-parenting with my my uhh with my partner and then suddenly there were four of us uhh and my child at the time was two that was amazing because it was during a time where I was, being a young parent is or a parent of a young child is difficult it's a huge life transition and I was tired all the time and it's just constant constant attention is required and so having extra people around or not extra but having more people around than just one othher person was extreemly helpful because not only did it relieve, it provided us with more time to be able to do other things like sit down [laughs] like pee by myself or hang out with my partner which is huge like you unless you like are in a position where you can you have like family helping you or you are able to get child care a lot of the time when you are raising a child with just one partner you don't really get to hang out with that partner ya know like it's which can be a big strain on the relationship and umm and like for like a lot of parents will just hang out when the kid is asleep but a lot of times when the kid is asleep you wanna be asleep so you just sort of there's a lot less time to connect to each other and it's important to have time away with each other and having three partners that are with people talk about umm like people who are imagining polyamory are like how do you have enough time to connect to theese people and it's funny like in that situation I felt like I had a lot more time to connect to all those people becdause the other people were there to be with the child sometimes and it felt like a really good windshield to have four adults to one child I was like oh because after two years of it being two adults to one child I was like oh this is like [laughs] four adults to one child seems like a really good ratio [laughs] and certainly things are different when there are multiple children and once children are old enough to start playing with each other it changes everything too umm I ended up later having a girlfriend who had a child who got a long with my child and that was a whole different awesome situation because I mean for obvious reasons like our children got a long with eachother so we could like hang out and have play dates for the kids which were also dates for us mom dates with each other, cause like otherwise a lot of time I had to like to go on a date with somebody I had to like arrange with my co-parent or like find child care somewhere or like my child was not yet in school at the time and so having a girlfriend who also had a kid who got along with my kid just made it so we could hang out and the kids were playing didn't need our attention constantly and so we could all hang in the same space and she and I were able to have a conversation and so that was really nice

[Sophie]: yeah and well I think ya know the more positive adult role models a kid has the better off they're going to be

[Tikva]: yeah for sure and also like a different examples of like different examples of how to be an adult I think is helpful to kids umm

[Sophie]: yeah ya know I think you're absolutely right uhh I saw this comic one time, I don't think it was one of yours it was ya know a guy at a bar talking to a girl and was like oh you're not like other girls ya know and she was like my dude I am an amalgamation of every girl I ever thought was cool okay and I think you can take that and extend it to ya know adults in that case and I think that ya know saying listen I am an amalgamation of every adult I saw as a kid and went wow they are incredible ya know they are well adjusted whatever I wanna be like them and I think giving kids the greatest diverstity in who to pick from in who they want to be like and to chose their own role models is very important so uhh ya know on this show we try to talk about both sides of the issue when it comes to polyamory and certainly ya know I'm very polyamours I love polyamory I think it's wonderful and certainly I think it's the best option for me personally but ya know sometimes there are some things about polyamourus situations that make them require a little more nuance and be a little more difficult to navigate when compared to a ya know monogamous situation so ya know are there any uhh kind of problems that in your mind fit that bill when we talk about polyamours parenting is ya know when we talk about poly or co-parenting is there any kind of extra things that you think come up that polyamorous people often have to deal with

[Tikva]: umm [laughs] the immidiate thing that came to mind was in regards to sharing holidays with like a standard monogamous family umm [laughs] I'm just thinking about one specific example so I'm just gonna say that so this upcoming valentines day I have a partner who had had an idea of planning this surprise thing to do together and then mentioned it to me like will you be able to come and do this thing with me and he doesn't live in the same city as me so he had to make sure that I would be able to actually be in the same city for it to work before hand so he said hey I want to plan this surprise thing can you come on valentines day and do this thing with me and I was like oh that's really sweet but I had already had the idea that my co-parent would want to be with his partner umm on valentines day I know that like that's more important holiday to him than it really is to me [laughs] so I had already like offered to watch the child and uhh so and my first thought was oh can you bring your girlfriend to this thing that you had thought that you and I would do together and like all of that like I just I mean I guess this isn't really a problem but like for somebody else like I thought that wholel situation was very sweet like if everybody involved really cared about celebrating valentines day like if things didn't work out like if once person had to stay in town to be able to be with the child because the other person really wanted to leave town I can just imagine a scenario where that would be difficult I think I don't have a good answer [laughins] to that question, I'm not immidiately thinking of anything that is inherently a problem that's like poly-specific although it's like it's interesting I brought up doctor sheff's work earlier she did a lot of reserach into poly families umm case she was looking for like she had the assumtion that there would be poly-specific problems to poly families and her reserach pointed to uhh actually that like the opposite polyamorous tended to be more have a lot more strength because of and be more resilient because of there being more adults around to be able to do things and that all of the problems that those families had were problems that already were problems anyway like are problems that monogamous people have to like none of the problems were she didn't come accross and new problems that were poly-specific is my memory from her reserach and I thought that was very interesting

[Sophie]: huh, that's very interesting I'll have to pick up one of her books, so were runnin a little short on time here so I think I'm gonna have you plug your stuff now if there's anything that you'd like to plug

[Tikva]: well I have two books that are out right now the first one is ask me about polyamory which is a compoliation of the webcomic that I've been talking about the Kimchi Cuddles webcomic so the first book is ask me about polyamory and the second book is sort of remenicint of the webcomic but it's a different sort of storyline it's based on people from my actual life so it's that it has that in common but instead of being a series of little comics it's one whole story it's the whole book so it's a graphic novel called love retold it's a polyamours love story and I have a new book that's coming out this year which is not written yet [laughs] well it's not drawn yet I've wrote it but so all these books are through thron tree press and uhh the third one that's coming out is based on a class that I've been teaching when I go to poly conventions which is about theraputic comic drawing and people really like the class it's sort of like a going through process that I have done for myself of uhh processing through my emotions through the use of comic drawing and I sort of I wrote a book walking people through the process it was really fun to write and I'm going to have a lot of fun drawing it and I think it's going to be an amazing book when it's finished and that one is called it's okay feelings I got you

[Sophie]: well you know Tikva I just wanna say I ya know I've been able to pull it together pretty well this whole time but I really have been geeking out over here not just because I like your comic and you're creating relateable content and stuff like that but ya know I have relationships now that are ya know that are still going that I genuinely believe are only still going because of your comic and because of things that I've learned from it and things I picked up along the way that you have kind of put out there and so your art is incredibly meaningful and incredibly powerful so it's just really important to me that you hear that and I'm sure you do all the time but I wanted you to hear it from me because I think that you create really really amazing content and I think it's important for you to hear that it helps people in a very real way

[Tikva]: thank you that's really meaningful I uh I mean I put things down on paper and it's helpful to me too cause I don't always know those things [laughs] just knew it in the moment I wrote it down so it's really helpful to me it's funny I have a snarky partner who's amazing but sometimes like sent me links to my own comics and like ya know [laughs] like god dammit

[Sophie]: that's really excelent so before we get going I just wanna remind our listeners that we have a patreon which you have the link to on your cover art you also have the link to our facebook page our twitter account and our email uhh which is an email address not a link and you can't click on them becdause it's an image that's how images look I'm told but you can type them into the search bar and go visit these places and boy would we ever appriciate it if you did and I want to give a shout out to our patrons thank you to Mitch hamilton, Marissa alexa mccool and ari stillman, thank you to Jade, thank you Vlad and thank you miles kataro, y'all are seriously awesome uhh that's all the patrons we have at the time when we're recording this so if you're hearing and you go what the hell I donated money and I didn't get a shoutout it's comin don't you even worry about it, if you're lookin to get your name on the show that starts at just one dollar a month a five dollars a month you get access to some bonus conent we've uploaded and at ten dollars a month you get all the episodes a week early and everything else from the other levels obviously ya know you're not gonna miss out on the bonus episodes for upgrading that would be weird but ya know I just wanna give all of our wonderful fans a shout out and a wonderful thank you because you all absolutely make my day whenver you listen to this and I just wanna say if you enjoyed the program that absolutely fills my heart and you should share it with at least one friend or partner this week just download it on their phone for them because they'll forget the name, I think it's catchy but ya know when you're just being told about it at the gym or whatever it is hard to remember so just do them that favor give them the gift of this show and my horrible sense of humor download your favorite episode on there for them and let them listen to it and if they like it then that's great and if they don't then thats not on you you're not repsonsible for their poor taste so yeah I think that's about it this time thanks again for oh and I also wanna mention we have advertising slots on the show email us to find out more information about that they start at just five dollars an episode so thanks again for listening and remember don't date your best friend's dad and don't date your dad's best friend

[Tikva]: [laughs]

[Sophie]: see ya next time folks

["Good old fashioned lover boy" by Queen plays]

[Announcer]: This show was part of the trans podcaster visibility initiative

[End transcript]

#polyamradio #polyam #polyamory #polyamorous parenting #kimchi cuddles #tikva wolfe #queer #trans #ep10

3 notes · View notes