#I'm not surprised there was no place for shipping discourse

[randomnameless]

I remembered you said you didn't like cyril with lysithea as a pairing, but which is worse, lysithea or hilda?

?

I don't think one is worse than the other but if you want my opinion on Cyril ships...

Uh... Hilda?

Wins this by a landslide?

The entire "Goneril House had slaves" subplot might have evaporated from the Fodlan devs, FEH remembered it lol

Sure, Hilda might not have been the one who had a slave, being it was her great Uncle Gildas or someone else... And it's kind of heartwarming to see her warm up to Cyril despite his Almyran origins because of all of his hardwork...

And yet, it makes me very uncomfortable, because you basically have someone, a young Noble Lady, whose house enslaves people, who basically tells a former slave from her own House, that she values him because he works so hard :/

Even if Uncle Gildas was the one who "hired" Cyril, it's, imo, pretty disturbing.

I much prefer an ending and resolution of Hilda's bias against Almyrans through Claude (where the slavery issue of House Goneril can be properly adressed) than... have Uncle Gildas attend to his former slave's wedding with his niece, hell, will new Almyran children be hired to attend to their needs or what?

All jokes aside, even if Cyril had been a slave to another house, I still think there's something really disturbing on how Cyril doesn't mean doing her tasks/chores because she's lazy - sure, Hilda has self confidence issues, but between doing something and being afraid of being judged for doing them well, and letting a former child slave do them for you.... I think one option is still way more preferable than the other.

Even if Hilda is not the kind of person (at least in FE16 lol) to enforce her role as... someone with a higher status than him, (something Cyril believes Claude would, and Claude's "stop being so cold to me don't you know who I am?" really sounds wrong) given Cyril's history with House Goneril, Hilda's lack of commitment to this particular issue when it's brought to her (blame Fodlan's writing I guess, or she really dgaf?)...

Yep, Hilda by a landslide.

As for Lys...

Blame it on CF being my first route, and Nopes slaughtering the Deers, but Lys is now the kind of person who can and will sell her friends, country and family to the person who ruined them, if it means she might have a better chance at life.

I think this mindset is completely... at odds with Cyril, who feels so grateful and indebted to Rhea that he is willing to offer his life (and to die for her) and even so, he feels like it will never be enough to repay her.

I don't have any Cyril ships - I much prefer him in a relationship (platonic, familial, whatever) where he can finally have friends and start living little by little, with people who finally care for him.

Even if he was completely shafted in Nopes, I got the feeling he and Rhea talked more, and maybe Rhea might, off-screen because Nopes, tell him to live his life without feeling tied to her? Given how she obviously angsts not once but twice about him dying for her sake in AG (when they run away from GM and when Cyril has an exploration dialogue explaining he cannot fight with Barney and pals because Rhea'd be upset if he died!) they might become closer and have the convo they have in FE16 (off-screen because Rhea cannot be on screen when it's not about Billy!) and ask him to stop living to repay a perceived debt, but live for himself now.

[raayllum]

im new to the fandom, so I miss a lot of the discourse (helped ofc by the fact you're kinda the only dp blog I follow), so everytime you mention the s4 backlash I'm like....how in the world could people hate that season or rayllum in it? It doesn't compute for me!

The last ship I was particularly engaged with, has a lot of similarities with rayllum. They were best friends, life partners before they were ever /romantic/ life partners. And they went through a /lot/ of trauma, miscommunication, and being on opposite sides of the same fight, etc etc.

the difference to rayllum was that they never rlly gave each other the grace they need. They also never talked on screen, but unlike rayllum it wasn't because it was the best option for them, it's just that the writers didn't want to include it ever - to the point that when they finally did an episode addressing it, it landed...very flat? Because it was about six seasons in, addressing things as far back as the second season, that they'd apparently never spoken to each other about before (they were tragically engaged when this happened).

Rayllum GENERALLY but especially in s4 have a really special place in my heart, because they feel very realistically messy - but it doesn't feel like it's there so there's some drama to keep audiences hooked. It feels authentic, and is one of those rare cases where it strengthens their relationship. I definitely could buy that rayllum would survive anything that hit their relationship by the end of s3, but getting to actually SEE that and see how much they're willing to work through out of love and respect for each other? Fantastic.

(also like it's such good character development....i am with u in the s4 defense squad. is there a squad? If there is I'm in it)

First off welcome to the fandom and I hope you're having a good time!!

The fact that my blog is mostly discourse free cause while I tag accordingly (fandom nonsense and dragons gets salty for potential blacklisting purposes) I always worry I can dip too far into that on occasion (I do my best not to unless being called out by name, and even then mostly do my best to ignore stuff), but there's not too much discourse within TDP in general — at least not in the Rayllum corner, luckily.

I think that's why the S4 backlash really surprised and threw me for a loop, because my partner and I finished the season at like 7AM on release day and while different than expected, we loved it and thought it was great from the start. Then we went online and people in the fandom who I'd largely always agreed with were having a really hard time with the season and it was disheartening at least to not have many people to talk to about why 1) S4 is TDP's thematically strongest season thus far and that's still true, 2) it's Ezran's best season imo, and 3) it does a lot of things really really well in really interesting ways.

I always try to never come down Too Hard on the s4 backlash just because people are of course entitled to their feelings/opinions then as well as now (even if some people's tunes have definitely changed), but a lot of it did feel sometimes short sighted if not immature.

Like soo many people are still mad that Rayla and Callum broke up in an offscreen graphic novel, when S4 would still be S4 regardless of whether TTM existed and like... if Rayla worrying that she failed (again) and went off on her own (again) to protect Callum was a big logical leap, then that person honestly just wasn't paying attention; there's not much else to say there. I also think it's just a strange choice to assume that Nothing Major would change the second you find out about a timeskip; like, almost everything else is status quo, Rayla being gone is the One Major Change and people couldn't handle that being a Surprise?

Like you said, conflict between a couple is not inherently a bad thing; it can be good and interesting, and this was always a relationship hurdle I think a lot of Rayllums (myself included) expected Rayla and Callum to have to tackle. Not liking how extreme or 'dramatic' it was (ie. season long arc > just a few episodes, or Rayla leaving > just trying to leave) is fair enough, but given that it's rooted in so much of Rayla's character, I'd much rather take a long way around approach that's in depth. I'm also just Glad and Grateful that the show is tackling it and treating it like the issue it is rather than sweeping things under the rug.

The fact that Callum's version of anger wasn't the one people wanted is another issue, but again — his anger went the way I'd always thought it might if he just went through enough trauma, and even if he had yelled at her, I don't think the season would've necessarily gone any different than it did other than them crying more early on. Which I've written and wouldn't have minded, but I also don't dislike the alternative route canon took — of course they were never going to get all variations out there, but Callum is cold as hell and being a bit of a jerk while also being valid and tempering himself because he doesn't want to hurt her anymore than she wants to hurt him (and Callum has always been very very bad at being/staying mad with Rayla or Ezran anyway).

I saw a lot of pushback against Rayllum being 'platonic' (which was annoying as an aromantic person lemme tell you, as though platonic is lesser), being "broken up for no reason" (Rayla being hyper-independent was not a secret and always going to be what threatened to rip them apart; they are also still Visibly and Repeatedly In Love with each other how is that broken up), or that they didn't get to have a Big Feelings Time in S4.

With that in mind, there's a lot that also matters in a relationship beyond just Open Communication, tbh. There's going to be times in life where you're not able to or unwilling to talk about certain things (given that S4 is maybe a week, I think that's reasonable; especially when Rayllum still haven't talked to each other about it as of s5 and no one I saw have an issue in S4 about it has complained about it there) and like... how do you treat each other when you're still mad or confused and haven't talked everything out? Do you still take care of each other, are you still doing your best to be considerate of each other (even if you're also not going to be perfect)? That shit matters just as much if not more as people able to sit down and hash things out.

I think the truth is a lot of the things that pissed people off about S4 would've been true even if the opposite things had happened:

N'than is flat and under developed unlike Ellis → N'than is more developed → why is N'than taking away from screentime for other characters?

The Sunfire plotline feels disconnected from the rest of the story (nvm that Viren's arc from 1x06 onwards doesn't affect any main character again until 3x04) → the Sunfire plot line has more connections to the main cast crammed in → more complaints about pacing and things feeling overly stuffed, as scenes already change from one to the next quite clearly

Callum and Rayla have a big talk sometime between 4x03-4x07 → this doesn't give Callum enough time to be angry / makes him seem unreasonable because he's admitted he was mostly worried but is still not fully letting her in despite her spilling her guts to him (and in what world would Rayla give excuses, again, when she knows he's the one hurting and taking priority in her mind)

S4's humor was bad because there were fart jokes (in one episode) → the crowlord's joke is so much worse than the fart jokes imo and is on par with the walnut joke in 1x06. also 1-2 scenes with jokes that didn't work for you out of 9 whole ass episodes is like. you're just a wuss i'm sorry

The Sunfire plot line is boring → will never not feel like "I just can't connect or be interested in politics and religious disagreements when it's mostly about Black people for Some Reason (racism)" to me tbh

There was no way to please everyone especially after a three year hiatus (because people think, For Some Reason, that how much time it takes for a story to come out should change how that story is written and it really, really doesn't) but yeah. The internet showed their asses and I was Not Impressed lmao

TLDR; a lot of the S4 backlash was "I'm mad this isn't happening now and I'm stressed out/worried that it won't be" as opposed to "this is only a problem if it never happens at all, but I have faith that it will," and I will love S4 forever. The Callum-Viren parallels being ramped up, the theme of duality and moving "doing terrible things for love" to the forefront with multiple characters (Rayla, Terry, Viren, Claudia), seeing Ezran step into his role as king, Callum's arc being shown > told, the set up for the possession plot line, Janaya's engagement and relationship development + Amaya and Janai's independent arcs? Chef's kiss. S4 is my best friend and its Rayllum dynamic is on par with S3 for me, and I am very grateful the fandom's attitude towards s4 and s4 Rayllum is a lot warmer / more reasonable now

When Callum says "unconditionally" in 5x01 and all their stuff in S5 we know and believe it because we've seen them fight and work so hard to come back from some pretty terrible brinks in imperfect ways, and I'll always love s4 for that. The most aspec Rayllum season by far

[itsclydebitches]

Have you seen the posts going around saying shit like "If a mutual likes Hazbin Hotel I will block them"?? It's genuinely upsetting me tbh, not just the idea that people don't like the show, but that they despise it so much they can't even stand the thought of someone they know liking the show. It reminds me of the Steven Universe hate train only worse. They also say shit like "the show is just someone saying swear words and expecting you to laugh", and if for a second we put aside the fact that that is blatantly not true, what's wrong with that? I'm allowed to like something that's a bit trash, right? I've already seen two different people I follow reblog posts to that effect (and worse, someone saying all a character boils down to is "i love being sexually abused <3" and i don't know how they ever came to that conclusion) and it's driving me mad. And somehow I just know that they don't actually give a shit about any "controversies" surrounding vivziepop, that's just a convenient excuse for most of them. I don't even care if Vivzie is a bad person, that's none of my business. just live and let live, you know?

Sorry for ranting, you're literally the only blog i follow who posts Hazbin fan content

Rant away, friend! Luckily for me I haven't come across any of those posts yet. Plenty of discourse surrounding whether fans are allowed to make romantic and/or sexual content for Alastor, the expected shipping wars, and - as you say - vague references to Vivzie controversies (which I'm too new a fan to even be aware of yet)... but nothing that's a complete rejection of the show itself. That's probably because I've only engaged with blogs posting a lot of Hazbin content though.

I'm a big fan of old school Internet rules which includes an emphasis on cultivating your own online space. You know, the thing tumblr is explicitly designed for. So in theory I applaud anyone blocking users/tags for a show they're not a fan of. Performatively posting about it more as a way to guilt others for liking Hazbin at all... not so much. If you want to block something just block it. If you're mutuals with someone you both presumably like each others' content. Not all of it necessarily, but enough to have followed in the first place, and often being mutuals for long enough leads to friendship because you're both getting interacting with one another a lot. All of which isn't to say that people don't unfollow mutuals, or that you can't drop a mutual because they've started posting something you dislike. Obviously both situations do happen, but it feels like an extreme enough response that these posters probably aren't actually doing this very often. Most people will wait the mutual out until their interest gets hooked on something new, or block the Hazbin tag and keep the friend, or just block without making a big announcement about it. So posts like that feel more like a way to show off how much you dislike the show and guilt others for their enjoyment which yeah, can be upsetting to see. Especially when, as you say, it costs nothing to just let people like things.

Which might sound hypocritical on my part given my RWBY interests, but I think there's a big difference between critically examining a show while supporting others who genuinely love it, and simplistically blasting it. I COMPLETELY get why Hazbin wouldn't be to everyone's tastes and, like with the SU example, anything that gets popular enough is going to develop its haters (especially cartoons trying to tackle non-childish subjects. That's always going to be a fandom landmine). But if you're going to make claims about a show, at least watch it to ensure you can back up your stance? And if your takeaway is still, "This is the worst fucking thing I've ever watched"... cool. Go forth and write about that on your own, personal blog. But no one should be surprised when they're also blocked for bragging about how many Hazbin fans they've blocked.

[dizzythegreat]

Keeper of the Lost Cities meta: a hopefully-not-too-critical analysis

Starting off by saying that this whole thing is a just little too pretentious and a just little too fueled by irritation so don't take everything I say as fact! I'm just kind of ranting about things that I feel like most people are annoyed with (?) please share your thoughts with me! I think it's important for discourse like this to happen to keep fandoms alive!! non-Keeper mutuals feel free to DISREGARD!

First of all Keeper has such a special place in my heart, I started reading the series when I was 12 and I'm 16 now, so I really did kind of grow up with the books. I LOVED the series as a kid and hyperfixated on it for a really long time. As the series progresses and as I read it from a different lens, I'm seeing all of the flaws so much more clearly, so this whole rant basically stems from realizing something so special to me is flawed media and wanting to get my thoughts somewhere. All of this comes from a loving place! I'm just putting down my top few issues with the series and my opinions on a lot of different elements <3

DISCLAIMER I'm doing a reread but I'm only on book 1 and my memory is shit. Any false information is literally not my fault leave me alone

1. Length, redundancy, and predictability

This one really starts in Flashback #7 for me. It will always, always evade me why that book contains ~300 straight pages of Sophitz fluff and fucking around in the healing center. I know that a lot of people enjoyed those parts, which is totally valid! Shipping is a cornerstone of this series! But for me it felt so pointless and fan servicey, idk. And this is maybe my biggest problem with the books: they drag. We're at 9 and a half books now, each spanning like 500-800 pages, and the plot drags and drags and drags. I don't know if Shannon's publisher makes her fill a certain number of pages or what, but I feel like at least 100 pages of bullshit could be cut from each book and nothing would change. They start to almost follow a formula: 200 or so pages of figuring out the Neverseen's plan of the hour, another 200-ish to plan how to defeat them, and then finally we learn that the Neverseen is actually always one step ahead and the crew gets crushed oh my god tragic!! It worked as a subversion of expectations the first couple times but by now I feel like most people could basically just predict what's going to happen in any given book. Sometimes I wonder got left on the cutting room floor because it feels like SM wrote a first draft, barely trimmed it down, and published just that. The plot spins in circles, the protagonists are confused yet again, I am pulling my hair out in chunks.

It's a huge turn-off to a lot of new readers seeing these super thick books, and it's even a turn-off to me when I do rereads because surprise surprise, I don't actually really give a fuck if Fitz likes Sophie back, or at least not enough to read 300 pages on it per book. If the books were more concise, not only would that fix a lot of the plot and character development issues, it would also make them way more digestible because to be honest with you I probably couldn't remember half of what happens in most of them.

2. Sophie...

I think this is a very polarizing opinion but I just kind of don't like Sophie as a main character? I honestly think she's fallen victim to becoming a Mary Sue and not even in a "wehhh powerful woman make me mad" type way! It's just that Sophie at her fullest power is undeniably the most powerful elf in a battle, so to counteract this, Shannon has to keep finding ways for the Neverseen to take away Sophie's power. Whether through the whole "she can only inflict everyone at once" thing or breaking every bone in her hand or creating forcefields or literally fucking anything to stop this kid with five million superpowers, they have to find a way to effectively tie her down so the battles seem somewhat realistic. This then creates a weird pattern where every battle goes one of two ways: Neverseen finds a way to effectively debilitate Sophie and all her friends, or she just goes fucking sicko mode and destroys everyone. You just can't have a main character who's this much ahead of everyone else in terms of raw power.

For me, I think the biggest issue with Sophie is she's not relatable to the average reader. The age demographic for Keeper is preteens and teens. How many 13 year olds are the most powerful, unstoppable person in their friend group, in which three hot guys are head-over-heels in love with them, living in very comfortable conditions, with like five hundred friends? If you were that fucking baller at 13 then go fuck yourself that's super cool for you! But the core pillars of Sophie's life, disregarding the all the magical stuff (which obviously requires some suspension of disbelief) are simply not relatable or recognizable to the average reader. So how are we as readers supposed to feel connected to Sophie's life and situation if we never have (and let's face it, never will) experience anything close to the more realistically human parts of her life?

3. Character development (and the lack thereof)

Say what you will but to me the character development is so pale and arguably just doesn't exist. It feels like everyone has become so one-dimensional, so predictable, and so limp. Sophie has it the worst because we read from her POV, so all of her quirks and thoughts become really fucking annoying to read over and over again. For example, The whole oblivious "omg does Dex like me? does Keefe like me? DO I LIKE FITZ???" thing was cute when she was 12 back in book one but by now I am genuinely tearing my hair out when I have to read "Sophie blushed" every two pages. The whole "I'm a freak and nothing I do ever works and all is hopeless" thing was easy to feel sympathy for the first few times, but by now it's just kind of... exhausting? It feels like the naïve, oblivious Sophie from book 1 is exactly the same person as Stellarlune Sophie, no matter how many hideouts SM makes her burn down to prove she's ruthless or something. At this point, I feel like Sophie's choices throughout the series end up either being really predictable or wildly out of left field.

Every character other than Fitz, Keefe, and Sophie (and you could make a case for the three of them too) have become a shadow of themselves and they all get at most two conversations worth of pagetime. This can be attributed to a lot of things that I don't feel like talking about so here they are in point form: excessive focus on the main "love triangle", overloaded cast of protagonists, too much emphasis on A) furthering the plot and B) Sophie's inner thoughts instead of character relationships and found family. I think the books have lost sight of the original love, trust, and bond created by the five mains, and those super interesting dynamics between the different sets of friends that were so abundant in the first few installements have become few and far between. When I was a kid, I loved the books for the warm friendships and soft moments between Sophie and Dex, and now we're lucky if they even really talk to each other if not to push the plot. Biana barely exists, Marella and Linh show up every once in a while to be gay as fuck and then leave, Stina turned nice and then immediately went back to being a bitch because SM, for some reason, un-did all her redemption, and everyone else fucks around until they're plot-relevant. Where's the squad where's the crew where's the homoerotic undertones?!

4. Miscellaneous whining

Fitz's character is wildly inconsistent imo. I love you Sophie but I'm going to consistently get mad at you over irrelevant things and ice you out even though you need my support! Your boyfriend is for the streets girl

Fuck this whole half-book thing I'm sorry. Understandably, things have slowed down now that SM has two kids and I'm really truly happy for her and I'm glad she's taking time out of her work for herself and her family. But when she keeps releasing these weird novellas every year as some kind of "solution", it really just seems like a cop-out or a cash grab. I wish we could tell Shannon that we don't necessarily need a 700+ page novel to consider it a book! I personally would love if book 10 was more concise!! Let's just get this plot moving a bit!!

Sophie burning Gisela's book BURNS MY BLOOD. SM just had no fucking idea what she wanted that book to say + it would probably end the series too quick so she got Sophie to burn the most crucial piece of information they could have ever used under pretense of "refusing to follow Gisela's trap" or whatever OH MY GOD

Sooo many dropped plot lines/plot holes there is no way this shit is being resolved in the next 1 and a half books. See you all in 2034 for book 13.125

Sokeefe endgame was great but so predictable. Half the reason most people read this series is for the will-they-won't-they thing with Sophie, Fitz, and Keefe (justice for Dex!), and I think it was executed very badly. You could predict that Sophie and Fitz would burn out, you could predict that she would end up with Keefe, there was net 0 suspense by the time Fitz made his 500th dick move. I know I just complained about things being stretched out for so long but this one could have done with some taking it slow without making it obvious what was going to happen

Can Marella and Linh just kiss already

Anyways this all comes from a place of loving frustration. Oh Keeper my love, look what has become of you. Ultimately, SM started a fantasy series without knowing the ending, and it's spun out of control, but what can you do? I appreciate the series for what it is, I wish it was better, but I'll always love it. Through all my bitching and moaning I'm still rereading it to this day so who's really winning here? Please rb and comment and dm I love discussing Keeper!!! If you think I'm an idiot tell me!!! If you agree with me tell me!!! Don't be a dick!! Thanks for making it this far! Don't forget to like and subscribe and smash that bell

[ruyakasunshine]

Thank you for your last post about F1 fans. At times I wish everyone would just chill the fuck out. I understand being more prone to hype up ones fave and whatnot.

I even get the whole oh I hate Max winning all the time, as if we didn’t have the same with Lewis while he was constantly winning.

I’m not even surprised that people forgot what happened last season, two weeks or 5 years ago, I feel this sport suffered from recency bias like no else. But in a sport that lives off stats that are all still public and easy to look up and fucking Wikipedia… well I guess that might be to much to ask of some people.

At the end of the day I just don’t get why people worry so much about things they dislike. Just block everyone and everything and move on.

Hype up your fave and call it a day.

Hey!

I completely agree on the fact that people need to chill big time. It's honestly starting to become dreading opening the comment section under any f1 related post because I know that we're going to have the same discourses over and over again. And the worst part is that they are usually extremely biased discourses, so it's not even like the debates are productive.

And same, do I wish to hear something other than the Dutch anthem every weekend? yes. Do I wish to see a battle for championship, or even for p1 for at least one race? Absolutely. But those things aren't under Max's control. He is fast, he wins. That's it. And until any other team can make a rocket ship that can compete with the rbr one, with a driver that can control said rocket ship, that's how it's going to be. And it isn't like we can't appreciate the sport either way, there are 19 other drivers who all compete and try to battle the one before them for their place, watch them.

Honestly, it is sort of crazy to experience the recency bias first hand, and I can barely blame people to fall into it. I'm pretty new in this sport as well, so I cannot pretend to have the best takes when it comes to drivers' performances without looking into other peoples' analysis, but I guess that it is easy to fall into a narrative so well crafted by the big medias.

And as you said, with the stats, and wikipedia, it's easier to fall into it. The first thing I understood when I got into this sport is that every tiny bit of a detail counts in a race : the weather, the performances of the top teams (it's easier to be p1 if the top team is having issues), the performance and the quality of the car (which the driver doesn't necessary have control over), etc. Context is vital in this sport, the final ranking can only say so much. But people ignore it so easily and pretend to be specialists at analyzing the performance of athletes (who have trained their whole life for this sport, by the way) from the comfort of their couch, without taking any of these into consideration. Especially when it comes from a place of bias.

[evendumbo]

on media literacy, shipping, and Ted Lasso...

This post was helpful to learn Hannah's more nuanced thoughts about Ted & Rebecca. I put the quotes in a word doc for people who can't see the words.

---

The T&R discourse is all over the place and I'm realizing that there needs to be a hard distinction between:

1) Ted & Rebecca as endgame (profess mutual romantic love, live happily ever after), and

2) Ted feeling romantic love for Rebecca and that truth is made clear to the audience through the writing, Rebecca's feelings are ambiguous-soulmate, and the characters are not necessarily endgame.

I had hoped for option 1. I reasonably thought the red bottom shoes were the clearest sign that Rebecca was going to Kansas, and I think the writers intended for me to think that. But the show also has a clear thread of melancholy and I wouldn't have been surprised if endgame was not in the cards. (I was also haunted by the reference to Once in the Christmas episode...)

So, as co-creator, Brendan Hunt, says, there was no enthusiasm in the writers' room for option 1. But option 2 is right there. Instead of the ambiguous ending that created feelings of confusion and being baited, I wish they had let the reasons for the heartbreak be clearer. Let the audience inside a little more so that the signs could maintain their narrative power and promise. In any other show that wasn't organized like a tight three-season arc that's filled with callbacks and parallels and signs, then ambiguity could be fine. But the way Ted Lasso is uniquely written, clear payoff on the central romantic arc was always going to be crucial and total ambiguity was always going to feel like a set up.

The anti-shippers who argue that there were no narrative signs towards a possible romance are dead wrong, but I agree with them that there was very little explicit romantic heat between Ted and Rebecca throughout the show. (I can't think of any except maybe Ted's "body language" during the gala and apology embraces.) I was hoping the story would get there given the signs and the narrative arc, but it never happened. So we're arguing about "media literacy" using different evidence, and I believe that signs are the stronger evidence given their specificity. We can all see that Ted Lasso is baking cookies so he can give them to Rebecca Welton every damn day, and I think most people can agree that that's at least peculiar. These signs of peculiar behavior and symbols piled up over three years, defining a clear likelihood of a romance in the works. But the case about heat is more subjective, a feel.

I have a friend who is a very respectful anti lolol. I encouraged her to watch the show and, when Ted found the matchbook in his pocket, she texted me "👀", even though she still didn't want it to happen. We had different hopes for the story outcome, but having "media literacy" is literally our jobs 😂 and she absolutely agrees the signs for romance were there and affirms the reasons the shippers are upset. The only difference between us was that, as a devotee to the TL writing approach, I became invested in the signs, and figured the heat would come when it came.

So when it ended, I had two distinct feelings. As a shipper, I was disappointed that option 1 did not come to pass. (ETA: Here's a great article breaking down the reasons for that.) But as a lover of the art of television, I felt a legitimate sense of loss that option 2 also did not come to pass, meaning the narrative signs were never acknowledged, they were just dropped like they didn't mean anything. Signs sometimes not being signs after all is life, sure, but tv shows aren't a realistic representation of life, they are an art form. The abrupt abandonment of their unique approach to writing created unnecessary turmoil in the fandom. This would have been bad enough, but then Brendan (and Hannah a bit as well) unhelpfully poured gas over it 🙄 by refusing to seriously contend with the show's narrative method and, instead, implied shippers (largely women) were making things up. But turns out that shippers are fucking smart and we took that shit seriously, look no further than the detailed gif sets on the tumblr tedbecca tag. Their comments broke trust between the storytellers and their very captive audience (including some media literate non-shippers). Their repeated "soulmates can be platonic" explanation was never in debate, it was always what we were seeing on the screen, the storytelling itself.

So, I'm sad that the project of it all played out the way it did. There's still a part of me that thinks maybe it will come back around someday so that the story can pay off the narrative debts it created, "thunder and lightening," daily homemade biscuits, etc. But it's hard for me to imagine I'd want to come back to the story whether or not that happens. Re-watches have also lost something special.

Maybe with time... 💜

[olderthannetfic]

I'm in a fandom with a lot of virulent antis (surprise surprise, it's heavily dark source material and I don't know why they're here at all) and a lot of the pairings that aren't the main badwrong ship on ao3 now have DNI tags on them for shippers of the badwrong ship. I guess not enough to break the TOS (no direct threats?), but still full of stuff like "x shippers DNI", "get help you freaks", "You're disgusting" etc etc.

Its just... so frustrating. Like that's a pretty red flag for me that a fic probably is going to be in an immature writing style so I probably won't read it anyway, but every time I see it I just.... heave a big sigh. Why these people are in this fandom or on Ao3 at all I'll never know. Its not even helpful - the tags are there to help describe the fic, if I didn't want to see that kind of content I could just... avoid content that's tagged that way. Why even add that to a fic that's not even about those characters at all?

Honestly, my real question is.... Olderthannetfic, how do you do it?

I feel like I do it "right", in fandom, or at least I try. I always just block and move on. I don't follow the discourse where I can help it and block a lot of the relevant tags. I keep to a small circle of folks that have the same fun brainrot I do and have fun, generally. But this kind of stuff still slips through the cracks in a way that's unavoidable if you're ever online at all. To be honest, it still hurts a lot to see each time, and be reminded that some people seem to literally want me dead over reading a story. And I can't help the doubt and the self-flagellation that creeps in. Despite my best efforts, and all my research, and living to the ripe rip van winkle tumblr fandom spinster age of 27... I sometimes have a moment where I think, maybe I really am a freak or a degenerate, or an evil predator waiting to bloom.

Do you ever experience this? Does this feeling ever go away, or at least dull to a more bearable exasperated eye roll? Do you ever see these anti idiots grow up or grow out of this mindset? Is it just a matter of time, age or experience? Is there a point at which you felt like it affected you less, or perhaps it didn't affect you like that at all? Is there a secret to navigating it calmly and with confidence? Do you have any advice to give in the, er, art of not giving a fuck?

--

Why would I quail at a stupid child on the internet after coming out as queer when I was 14 in the 90s?

I grew up with very open-minded, supportive family aside from my mother's conviction that BDSM was something people were into because they'd been abused. Even then, I remember privately snickering because I was super kinky, and wouldn't that upset her given this silly world view?

I had it easy compared to most in the 90s, but I still saw a lot of nonsense, like good old Mom on the topic of kink or murders in the media. But I also spent a lot of time reading educational sexuality books that debunked myths about fantasies and kinkiness.

Maybe a firmer grounding in sexuality stuff would help you? Nancy Friday's work on women's fantasies is a common starting point. I'm partial to The Topping Book, which is full of "it's great to be a top, actually" and not "you only do it for the sub".

Getting older does usually help though. Most 20-somethings are insecure in their sense of self. Middle age is when people's fucks generally run out, and that only continues to grow. Watch a stupid child go after some 60-something zine writer lady. She's going to laugh in their faces. Some people remain insecure forever, I suppose, but not anybody who had to woman up to be in fandom in the first place.

It's not just that these little idiots are wrong about us being predators: it's that they are the morally degenerate ones for spreading the psychological equivalent of "vaccines cause autism" or "Jews want to steal your Christian babies".

This idea that The Bad People are infiltrating our minds with their propaganda overlaps heavily with anti-semitic conspiracy theory right wing fundie nutjob ideas, and yet these young fools claim to be pro-queer and pro-civil rights. They're an embarrassment to any progressive movement and it disgusts me.

When someone goes "You're not a Christian, so you're going to hell", do you have a moment when you wonder?

Because that's the level of absurdity here.

Even if they don't bully, even if they don't include threats in their DNIs, the fact that they're spreading myths about sexuality that have been thoroughly debunked many times means they're doing something unethical, anti-intellectual, and anti-science.

I'm not afraid or guilty. I'm embarrassed for them.

--

Do antis grow out of it? Yes, frequently.

They are—either literally or functionally—victims of right wing Christian cults. They have the same trajectory of realizing they've been had and slowly trying to work through the raging guilt and religious trauma.

I have limited patience but some sympathy. Like other victims who were indoctrinated to hurt people, escaping the cult is hard. It means not only giving up your false sense of safety and all of your friends but facing what you've done.

[tubbytarchia]

more discourse, sorry! this just seems like the best place to talk about this tbh

tldr; flower husbands are overrated and a lot of really cool character dynamics and relationships are overlooked because of that.

why are flower husbands such a big deal? like i can understand a small corner of the fandom dedicated to debating if their marriage is healthy or not but like. why do so many people care? it's not that unique. they refer to each other as husbands and scott's kinda a bitch and then jimmy dies and scott is sad for a little while. it just feels weird that it's one of the most popular ships in the fandom. there are so many cool dynamics with scott i don't see talked about! dl!scott and dl!cleo for example. afaik they dont even have a ship/duo name so i usually just refer to them as "a queerplatonic relationship based on mutual hatred". that's an amazing dynamic that needs to be explored more. and like. on jimmy's side. the ranchers. if you want a cute fluffy relationship the ranchers are overlooked far too often. they're not even that unpopular of a ship! but in comparison to the flower husbands they are! oh and gaslight gatekeep girlboss. love them, they don't get takes about enough. and the coral kids are canonically in a qpr this doesn't get discussed enough.

Hmm is ranchers overlooked...? I can understand non multishippers not wanting to switch over to it if they don't see a problem with FH to begin which is totally fair imo. For the most part I agree with you though. I was writing a bunch of paragraphs but instead I'll just say, I happen to bring FH up a lot because of how much opinions on it differ, and I'm in the minority to call it toxic etc (obligatory: toxic doesn't equate to nuanceless "bad") but it's absolutely integral to both of their characters' growths as I see it. Analysing either of their characters brings FH back into question again and again due to its lingering effect on both of them, especially Jimmy, and he's the character I enjoy delving into the most. I think most Scott dynamics have gotten decent attention (I myself, would love to see more on Scott and Gem though) but FH is definitely the most popular. It also has a lot of history outside of traffic, Empires s1 especially, and I absolutely understand the appeal and how people would find it a cute, problem-less ship, so I'm not surprised by its popularity. Some dynamics are also very reliant on FH as a driving factor to me, like Pearl and Jimmy

[reflections-in-a-critical-eye]

I find myself questioning why I'm still bothered and how I let it get to me the lack of nuance in fandom discourse. Especially with K-Pop and everything I've witnessed in the last 3 years. The bigger the fandom, the less chances for it to be cohesive and attract a specific demographic able to participate in a certain high level of discourse.

I remember a few years back I was lurking in the Black Sails community here on tumblr. I was usually someone who would read the weekly reviews to tv episodes and that would be enough. In the case of that series, it didn't feel enough because to me, the reviewers were missing or ignoring the complexity of that show. And to my surprise (although it shouldn't), the fandom on tumblr was one of the best I had the chance to observe. There was dedication, yes, but more than that, smart people were writing these amazing essays and analysis worth of getting published in established journals. Well beyond a simple review. They were media literate, which is something that gets lost more and more as time passes.

Of course I don't expect that same thing in a fandom like Army. They can barely be compared. Army is way, way larger. It covers a wide demographic which is good and bad simultaneously. Theoretically, there's a place for everyone, regardless of their identity/background. So in cases like that, people tend to choose their own corner, subsection depending on where they fit and their interest. Perhaps a teenager is more likely to spend time on tiktok making edits and looking at clips, without following each and every type of content out there. Because they don't have to. Fans using weverse are also their own category that exhibit a specific type of mentality. Twitter and tumblr are places that offer the platform for a more discussion-type of engagement, with twitter taking the first place.

So, we find our community and that's supposed to allow fans to live in harmony. I know, funny. It's never like that because we like to peak and invite ourselves in other spaces. And the places can easily become echo chambers. But what is interesting to note is observing what the fandom deems as an echo chamber. A solo stan account or a shipper is an echo chamber, but an account focused on the group as a whole and only their achievements and updates is not. It doesn't matter that the user feigns ignorance when confronted with weird hashtags trending because they had no idea. They curate their experience. It's perfectly valid, but the danger of creating/becoming part of echo chambers happens to all of us, regardless of our type of engagement. The longer we sit comfortably in our corner, talking to people who are of the same opinion as ours, the greater the risk.

Nevertheless, there is still this need of showing one's superiority based on the type of subsection of the fandom we are part of. Which automatically fails because it shows our ignorance and getting to what I wanted to talk about, the incapability of engaging in a nuanced discussion. Of course this is not something that we should expect from everyone. Like I said, we need to know our "audience". I won't go to the weverse/IG pages wanting to talk about Asian fetishization in kpop fandoms. It would be pointless. But we do touch on those types of topics on twitter and tumblr. Which is why I don't find it completely absurd to have expectations.

Shipping within the fandom has once again been under fire today, more than usual. And it showed, as each and every time, that there is simply no bridge, no way of finding a common language, of willingness to have that nuanced conversation without resorting to generalized statements. The result of that usually creates more harm, divides the communities even more and sweeps under the rug the normalization of a specific type of shippers who transform mentions of sexual assault into a weapon to attack and offend. As serious as this is for people who are not online 24/7 in fandoms, it has indeed become the norm for those who are part of it. So then why we ignore it? Why do we generalize it instead of addressing the exact person or community who does it regularly? Because it's the crazy part of the fandom and those who are not part of it consider themselves to be better than others. Feeling superior is the ultimate goal. In a fandom of millions, we all try to differentiate ourselves in one way or another. And that leads to our fandom identity and automatically our position towards issues within the larger community. Being for or against, wanting to engage or not, is sending a message. It's always more about us than the people or content we talk about.

I know I haven't touched on 1% of what this topic should cover, but these are just some thoughts. We can't all be the smartest and better than everyone else when we are completely fixated in some beliefs that come to exist based on how much we want to use our intelectual abilities or simply refuse to.

[irithnova]

Can't believe I'm discourse posting again but whatever.

While I may not have 100% been on board with the uh. Rusame edging response post because I have extremely "problematic" ships myself and have described Mongolia and China's relationship as being "married/divorced" so I'm not really any better than the edging shit in that sense, I think a lot of the replies were made in extremely bad faith and some pretty nasty people took advantage of the situation in their own ways.

The person who was vagued about had the right to respond of course and yeah it can be classified as ship hate considering it was put in the tags however people are seriously running over the fact that the poster themselves are Uzbek-Korean so yeah they'd understandably have some complex feelings about Russia and America if you know even the general history. The post perhaps wasn't worded that well and was an attack on rusame simply because of a comedic analogy of the relationship made by a shipper, but that anger didn't just come from like. Absolutely nowhere.

You had people in the comments slinging fucking 4chan lingo at OP (same person who did this supports a well known Zionist in the fandom why am I not surprised) and then much bigger content creators making posts and comments about how OP and their entire friendgroup are nothing more than butthurt sjws who are pushing people out of the fandom (and I can't believe people are still unironically using "sjw" in 2024 I guess anything is possible).

Extremely bad faith actors coming out of the woodworks who have had problems with OP and their friendgroup for completely different reasons using OPs hate post about rusame and the subsequent dogpiling as an excuse to publicly lie about the nature of the friendship and how it broke down. I find it extremely cowardly that months ago, when confronted privately about bad behaviour such as gossiping behind people's backs and confronted with the fact the person she was gossipping with is a prolific emotional abuser and racist, Verta blocked everyone and said she didn't want to get involved in "drama".

Now that someone within the group - a minor no less, who barely engaged with Verta herself during the course of her contact with them group, is being publicly dogpiled by multiple big creators - NOW Verta has the courage to come rear her head, engage in drama be like "they're all a bunch of sjws who hate white people!".

If you want to go back to 2016 for fresh "SJWS/feminists OWNED!" compilations, be my guest.

I find it extremely ironic how Verta is calling OP "fandom police" when Verta herself tried to gatekeep someone's identity/relationship to China....over hetalia art. I guess it's not policing when you want to be a bigot, but it's policing when someone from a certain background has unpleasant feelings towards a ship.

A lot of the vague posting about "WOW I LOVE RUSAME SO MUCH" afterwards I think was also extremely childish considering *gestures to the fact that OP is Uzbek-Korean* so yeah. They made an angry post about rusame that should have been handled privately between them and the person they were vaguing about however they do have some extremely personal reasons as to why they may have strong feelings about it.

It wasn't just an ordinary "rusame sucks and rusame shippers should die lol!" post made by an angry rando who likes perhaps Russia x [different country] and is butthurt at the attention rusame is getting but the way people are responding with "rusame is the beat ship evaa <33" posts in response to it - you'd think that was what OP posted instead of like. An emotionally charged (but poorly handled) post about Russian and American imperialism as someone who's family/countries has been affected by both.

Again I'm not in a place to judge rusame shippers considering the shit I ship and say - you can do what you want and I actually like cold war stuff myself. I just find a few of the responses extremely childish considering the circumstances surrounding why the post was made and a few were absolutely done in bad faith in order to paint OP as being nothing more than an angry sJw!!1 when. Again. *Gestures at Uzbekistan's history with Russia and Korea's history with America*

Also. I'm sorry but rusame is the most popular ship in the fandom right now. You guys will live if (1) child who comes from that background makes an emotionally charged post about it. There's no need for an onslaught of personal attacks and hateful anons. Jesus Christ I received death threats for shipping Monchu and I didn't even respond like that.

[marinsawakening]

I saw a post that reminded me of this which is why I'm talking about this out of the blue but whenever I see the 'do canonically male characters you headcanon as trans girls count as female characters' debate pops up I remember this one event from the Voltron fandom where an f/f ship week banned genderbending and people lost their SHIT about it, SPECIFICALLY because the mods were like 'we want people to actually focus on the female characters and not submit already popular m/m ships but genderbent'.

This was years ago obviously so standard 'my memory may be fuzzy' disclaimer, but while I believe part of the reasons the mods banned genderbending was bc they believed it to be transphobic (which you could actually argue against and is a stance I don't agree with), and ppl were using that as leverage to argue, but that's not what ppl were actually angry about. Also, I believe the event was run by antis, who had a 'no age gap ships' rule in place, and people were mad about that, but like. The only f/f ships at the time with even kind of an age gap were ones involving Pidge, (which, again, for the record, I never personally gave much of a shit about), and yeah I do believe those were banned and ppl were pissy about that, but most of the ppl arguing with the ship restrictions were doing so in combination with the genderbending restriction, bc what they were mad about wasn't actually about a major female character being banned from the f/f ship week for Ship Discourse Reasons.

What they were angry about was specifically being told their genderbent m/m ships didn't count because they did not, in fact, contain female characters. Arguments were made that, because it was genderbent, it was now f/f and should be allowed in the f/f ship week. The mods went no, those are still canon male characters and popular m/m ships, and we're trying to run a week about the female characters and f/f ships because they don't get enough attention. The mods were fending accusatory and argumentative asks for ages and told people to create their own f/f ship week if they didn't like how theirs was run, which. People did.

A counter f/f ship week was organized but with less restrictions, specifically the restriction on genderbending was lifted. Now, I never followed Ship Week B, because I don't care about shipping and I was there to see more attention given to the female characters, which allowing genderbent m/m content seemed pretty anathema to. But I did check in on it out of curiosity, and to no-one's surprise, Ship Week B contained very large amounts of mostly genderbent sheith, with some shiro/lance and lance/keith thrown in. Like, I'm sure there was also actual f/f content (I remember there being some Pidge/Allura specifically), but I remember very little of it.

And as I alluded to in the large Nuance Disclaimer paragraph: yes this was the Voltron fandom, yes the Disk Horse was involved and made everything far more explosive than it probably would've been otherwise, and also, if the mods hadn't explicitly put the genderbending restriction in the rules list they probably would've gotten maybe a few genderbent m/m submissions tops. It's pretty obvious that a large motivation for Ship Week B was spite, and as someone whose username is literally spitecentral on AO3, I can confirm there is no stronger motivation for fan content than spite. I don't actually think that genderbent m/m is such a major problem in f/f spaces that it needs to be explicitly banned to avoid having it overrun ship weeks.

But even taking all that into account, this whole thing was completely fucking bonkers. Regardless of your opinions on the mods' opinions on genderbending and the Disk Horse, asking ppl not to submit genderbent m/m content on account of it not containing canon female characters is completely reasonable, and the fact that people got mad enough about it to create a whole seperate f/f ship week SPECIFICALLY to allow genderbent m/m content is insane. All the f/f ship week asked was for people to pay attention to female characters for once, and people threw a fucking tantrum about it and not only point-blank refused, but created more content for the male characters out of spite.

So yeah that was kind of a formative fandom experience to me that taught me:

People will take any excuse possible to avoid paying attention to female characters.

People will make literally anything, up to and including female character-centric fandom events, about men.

And that's what I think about any time I see people get offended when others point out that headcanoning a canon male character as a trans girl isn't the same as engaging with female characters.

[bcbdrums]

🍄🍬🌿🧩 Truth or Dare!

"🍄 ⇢ share a head canon for one of your favourite ships or pairings"

uhmm... hmmm... hmmm... i don't think i can pick one pair, lol. i'm gonna pick. a few.

i'll preface this by saying i'm a canon purist 99% of the time, so when i have a headcanon, it's because i think i can defend it very well with evidence from the source material.

Star Trek - Jim and Spock share a mental link that was created by accident and allowed intermittent empathy/mild telepathy of both a conscious and subconscious nature. this is evidenced in several episodes, but a particular moment on the bridge in The Immunity Syndrome is my solid basis for this. (I promise I'll keep writing "Always Will"... Star Trek is the fandom of my heart. I'll come back to it. I promise.)

Kim Possible - (angst alert! tw: infant death. tw: child death. tw: miscarriage. i hope i did that right...) Drakken and Shego had twins that didn't survive. The event brought them closer together and made them re-think their priorities... This is post-canon when they were dealing with the good vs. evil issues already, and the only thing they knew for sure was they wanted to be together. This event also led them to realize...they want to be parents. (Yes, my fic "Rekindling" is in fact, headcanon...)

Soul Eater - I haven't posted a fic about this one yet so I'm leery to share it... But a story is already in the works. And I'll be very, very vague... Stein's "experiments" on Spirit were extremely mild and rapidly turned into something else... Something Stein was doing to cover for Spirit, to protect him from something else going on in his life... And that's where I'm leaving that because I want it to be a surprise when I post the story! But a couple people I've told might guess this, heheh. (No title for this story yet... Titles are my worst enemy.)

"🍬 ⇢ post an unpopular opinion about a popular fandom character"

Spirit Albarn did not cheat on his wife. 😎 I'll die on this hill. In a diff post than the one I link, I compared him to Greg Universe (of Steven Universe). The authors present both as characters you want to hate, who you question, who look like lousy fathers. But slowly the story starts to unfold and you realize...there's more here than what was presented on the surface. And maybe the surface was a lie all along. I use that comparison because most people seem to get it with Greg. But only a few people get it with Spirit. That's fine. It's my headcanon; it doesn't have to be yours. And I enjoy other ppl's headcanons very much. But you did ask.

"🌿 ⇢ give some advice on writer's block and low creativity"

this is where the whole... 'write for yourself' thing, comes into play. i've actually seen a lot of tumblr discourse about this recently... write for yourself! people say. but, we share creations out because...we want people to see them. we are writing for ourselves, and then sharing them...

here's what i'm learning. my motivation to create has to be for myself, in the grand scheme. it's fine to create things here and there for others. and i personally love gifting fanfic. but if your goal when you go into creating is... 'i'm going to tailor this story so this person will like it,' or, 'i'm gonna post this and i can't wait till this person comments!' that's when you're in danger... you're not creating for yourself anymore. now your satisfaction is going to come from...what that person thinks, whether or not they comment, how deep is their comment...

your satisfaction has to come from responding to your own creative drive.... i suppose that's where the advice starts. make sure your motives are in the right place. and... hey, if the creativity is sated? allow yourself to rest! as i'm writing this (it's being queued so, not coming out near the same day it was asked), my writing well is a bit dry. you might want to create, and feel bad you're not doing so... but it's okay to rest! if your mind just wants to daydream but the hands don't want to write the story or draw the piece right then... just let yourself be. allow yourself that space. i think you'll find creativity is better for it in the long run.

'but i'm worried my followers will be disappointed?' now, there you're not creating for you again... if they're friends, they'll still be there. if they're just...a random number in your stats, then again... your motives aren't in the right place. i'm a firm believer in...don't base your self-worth on internet stats. it's just not something i can get onboard with. your value is not determined by number of views, comments, reblogs, etc...

"🧩 ⇢ what will make you click away from a fanfiction immediately?"

ahhhh hmmm.... i haven't done any immediate clicks in awhile. i'd say if something squicks me pretty suddenly. but blessedly, with AO3 tagging, i can often avoid accidentally running into those things.

wanna be clear though, writing is in art itself and sometimes... well, i'll give an example. i read a fic not too long ago with a twist ending. it is the sort of thing i would not have read had i known. but, had they tagged for the twist it would have ruined the story. so i was not bothered by the lack. i personally would have done the same. am i haunted by what i read? yes. but storytelling is its own art and well...yeah. it's not like in picking up a physical book we're gonna get the tag warnings.

that was slightly off topic, uhhh... i think mostly just if one of my squicks shows up i'll click away. something that's not my thing. and depending on how good the fic is, i'll try to push past it. but if it keeps happening... like there was one long, long multi-chap where main char was kidnapped and tortured and my poor li'l happy-ending heart didn't realize until i was fairly deep in that the whole point of the fic was torture that just got worse and worse... closed that one, never finished.

oh okay but one thing... if a story is VERY out of character, then i'm not interested. like.... the whole point in fanfic is to see more of the character so if it doesn't read like them, then... yeah. that's actually probably the most immediate thing for me. i can handle poor grammar and formatting and english-second-language writers and new writers who are learning the craft... all of that is fine. long as the character is in character, i'm pretty game to read most things.

thanks for the ask!!!!

[asumofwords]

🎬 au anon here! I didn't really want to write this cause it would be extremely disrespectful for me to write an alternate ending but good lordy the amount of people I've seen being sad??? it makes me feel bad for them so to the people who wanna cope lmao 😭

“AND CUT! that's it. We're can wrap it entirely up now.” the director announces and everyone claps and cheers, You hug jace, baela before leaving to hug cregan, he rubs your back in reassurance before throwing you a sweet smile.

Aemond walks over before shaking hands with cregan and give him a bro hug, “Good job, Creg.” Aemond says and Cregan nods, “You too Aemond, sorry I stole your wife.” he jokes earning a joking punch from Aemond to his chest. “Still haunting her forever though.” Aemond giggles and you scoff, which turns his attention to you, “Girlie can't catch a break.” you say which makes both Aemond and Cregan laugh, “I mean, they are meant to burn together.” cregan says and you shoot him a playful annoyed looked which makes Aemond throw his head back in laughter.

“Are you attending the wrap up party next week?” Cregan asks and you shrug, “I'm not sure, Lucerys (now aged 4) and Aenys (the 7 month old who is now 2) might not allow me the time to do so, “Speaking about them, where is Lucerys? He acted so well it gave me chills.” Aemond says and just then your eldest son's runs screaming at you and hugs his fathers leg tightly, Aemond picks him up and places a kiss on his forehead.

“They managed to give him the creepiest of dialogues.” Cregan comments making you snort, “So true tho, he can communicate with his dada.” Aemond rubs his nose against Lucerys cheek which makes him giggle. “You did good baby! I'm sure the viewers will be surprised to see you.” you kiss Lucerys on the cheek, making him giggle.

“I loved how they waited for him to grow to film the final episode, the dedication because they wanted our actual son to act as our son in the show too.” You say, earning a hum from Aemond, “When will my death air?” he asks and you chuckle, “Next week.” you say, “Can't wait to see everyone's reaction, I just know they'll be crying.” Aemond smirks which makes cregan laugh, “I'll miss aemond too, hashtag aemondforever” he says which makes you giggle.

“I can't wait to see the shipping discourse.” You hear someone say from behind and you jump, realising it's Aegon and you sigh in relief, “You fucking scared us.” you quip which makes him laugh lightly, “What are you doing here anyway? Who invited you.” you say sarcastically earning a pout from Aegon. “Damn, you didn't have to be that rude.” he rolls his eyes playfully, “And excuse you, I have a right to be here, I want to support my younger brother.” Aegon says wrapping an arm around Aemond's shoulder, though it looks awkward since Aegon is short.

“Y/N!!!!!!!!!” you hear helaena yell and you immediately embrace her, she pulls away and looks at Aemond, “You know it doesn't hurt you to smile right?” she teases and Aemond jaw drops, “I cannot smile! It's literally in the script, I'm supposed to look menacing.” he says and you nod “You did look menacing, even I am traumatized.” you agree which makes helaena laugh.

“So will you all be attending the party next week?” Cregan asks again and you shrug once again, “I would love to, but Lucerys and Aenys... And on top of that we have Visenya too now.” you remember your daughter who was just born recently.

“Aemond never beating the breeding kink allegations, not in the show, not in real life.” Aegon speaks up which causes you to laugh.

“Watch her reveal that she's pregnant with another kid now.” Jace jumps in, having heard the earlier convo and your face drops before a small smile creeps up your face and Aemond gives you a knowing look.

“No fucking way, actually?” Aegon asks shocked. And you nod.

“Dude let her rest, is your plan just to keep her full of you now?” Cregan says, earning a laugh from him, “That is my plan, yes.” he replies, which got him a smack from you.

“Seriously? Girl you just gave birth 4 months ago.” Helaena says before she glares at Aemond who just shrugs, “You really should shove a dagger deep into him, like actually.” Helaena says, rolling her eyes, which earns a smirk from Aemond, he covers his kids ears before speaking

“Mhm yes deeper haa” he says lewdly which makes your eyes pop out of your skull.

“FOR FUCKS SAKE AEMOND—”

The rest of the day was filled with laughter and you hanging out with your colleagues, spending them with them as the filming had come to an end.

Small treat for those who want to live in denial, ONCE AGAIN I'M WRITING THIS BECAUSE I FEEL BAD FOR EVERYONE HAHSHAD this isn't an official ending of sf&a, unless you wanna live in denial, but like yeah,

I LOVED THE SERIES SO MUCH.

The way I’m smiling like a good reading this!!! Omfg I LOVE IT !

[jedi-enthusiast]

Me? Making another Hazbin post on my Star Wars blog? It's more likely than you think.

Tbh I'm probably just gonna post all my fandom stuff on this blog instead of limiting myself to having to post on separate blogs, which means I may or may not change my username, but anyways-

Getting back to the point, I can't believe I'm actually going to make a post defending people for liking Valentino, of all people, and also---apparently---Stanakins and anti-Jedi people, but here I am and here I go!

JUST LET PEOPLE LIKE VILLAINS, FOR FUCK'S SAKE!!!

I just got on TikTok- (which, yeah, always hosts the most rancid discourse, so I'm not exactly surprised) -to see that someone made a video basically saying- "if you like Valentino at all and don't just hate him, then you're bad/crazy/a horrible person/etc." -and like...y'all have got to get past this whole- "liking this fictional thing = excusing it irl" -because it's really fucking weird and it can lead to some very bad places.

This actually ties into two of my Star Wars posts, the one where I explain why I call out most anti-Jedi arguments as antisemitic and the one where I explain why you don't have to justify a villains actions to like them- (I can't find that post, it's too far back on my blog 😭).

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For the first one, the overall point of it was that I'm not saying that people who hate the Jedi are horrible people, or that liking someone like Anakin or Dooku or Palpatine makes you a terrible person, but that, firstly, yeah I'm gonna defend the Jedi and get passionate about it when someone comes onto my blog to argue with me about how "they were the REAL bad guys" but also---and what actually pertains to this post---that people are allowed to hate the Jedi and love the villains, so long as they're not perpetuating harmful bigoted rhetoric.

People want to hate the Jedi? People think they were arrogant and should've let people get married? People think they were emotionally stunted and "didn't let people love?"

Fine, whatever, if those ideas make you enjoy Star Wars more, then believe whatever you want!

People say that the Jedi- (who again, are based on Jewish and Buddhist culture) -"deserved their genocide?" People say that they "kidnapped kids?" People say that they "needed to be wiped out by Anakin because they had lost their way" and other such things that are literally taken verbatim from antisemitism 101?

That's where I take issue, because then you're just perpetuating bigoted beliefs about a culture based on the culture those beliefs are literally used against, only it's acceptable because it's popular to do so.

In that post I used the example of the difference between shipping a problematic ship, calling a fictional serial killer "babygirl," and writing about dark topics vs. the "angry black man" stereotype and the "cheating bisexual" stereotype. Something that doesn't cause harm vs. something that does cause harm.

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For the second, my point was mainly that people are just allowed to like villains and they shouldn't be judged for that, and the characters shouldn't be changed- (whether in the actual media or in fandom) -to make them "actually a good person" so that fandom purists find it "acceptable" for people to like them.

People don't have to "justify" liking a villain or only like the good palatable characters, and it's ridiculous to expect them to do so.

If someone likes Anakin? Likes Dooku? Maul? Palpatine? Tarkin? Thrawn?

Cool! Great! I'm glad they've found characters that they enjoy and find interesting, that's part of what makes being apart of fandom so fun! And they don't have to justify those characters' actions, just to be "allowed" to like them.

The Jedi don't have to be "the REAL bad guys," the Rebels and Republic don't have to be "just as bad," the Empire doesn't have to be good...people are, in fact, just allowed to like the bad guys and that doesn't make them terrible people.

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So yeah, my point here?

Is Valentino an abuser? A manipulative, toxic, asshole? A literal fucking pimp that treats his contractees like shit and takes advantage of them? Is he a heinous person and nothing short of a villain?

Absolutely!

But people are allowed to like his character design, or find his character interesting, or enjoy how he interacts with the other Vees, or whatever people find enjoyable about his character---because liking a fictional character does not equate to excusing their actions.

By all means, if people start saying that Valentino is "a good person actually" or start victim blaming Angel Dust, tear em apart! Have at it!

But, until then, y'all just have to accept that not everyone is going to have the same opinions as you on characters or have "totally pure fandom beliefs." Because perpetuating that sort of purity culture around fandom is how we get people justify villains and victim blaming, because y'all won't just leave people be about liking the bad guys.

Just get over yourselves and don't make me have to explain this shit again, for fuck's sake.

[tamelee]

+3

I skimmed through it a bit but I think OP did somewhat decent research on the topic of fetishization regarding shipping/fandom. Such criticism is in many ways very valid. Very prevalent in the t/b-discourse as well. OP themselves say that it’s a new exploration on the topic so it’s of no surprise to me that it’s written as a broad generalization. 

And very irrelevant to the actual story or the question that was asked. 

So, no- it’s not good criticism because the irrelevant conclusion doesn’t say anything about SNS specifically. And how valid is it anyway if it stated that the bond between Naruto and Sasuke is no different from other characters? Lmao, that’s downright wrong in every way and disrespectful to the craft even if you don’t agree with them as a couple. Even Naruto/Sasuke haters are able to see otherwise and it’s often a source of hatred in the first place. Their ‘rivalry’ is explored in the story and in many ways actual ‘text’ is used to explain it further, how it came to be and what it eventually means. The person of the Ask, asked a very valid question, yet all of that is dismissed for the sake of a conversation regarding fetishization in fandom and using that to criticize and disprove SNS. 

It’s the whole “Kishimoto didn’t know what he was doing”- argument all over again but coated with fancy words. That’s not to say that everything is wrong, I’m just saying fandom is irrelevant to the actual story. SNS-fans say unhinged things as well and there are many things I don’t agree with either. Assumptions about Kishimoto’s personal life and stating those ideas as being true or even remotely provable is definitely one of them. Chastising shippers from other fandoms for using filler-material and then flaunting a ‘SNS’-quote from a novel written by the same person that provided the filler-material for other ships is most definitely another. There is certainly fetishization happening in this fandom and that’s not something you can simply fight or disprove of in a way in order to remove it completely. It still got nothing to do with the story itself though or Kishimoto’s intentions regarding ‘Naruto’. OP lumps us all together and assumes a fan’s entire thought-pattern, thinks majority of us are Western (which blames any valid argument on culture which is bollocks) and don’t know anything about Japan if we think there is gay-subtext because surely Japan doesn’t unless it was meant to (which is rich tbh), our ideology that we all apparently share and decides to criticize all of us because of our toxicity and internalized misogyny. ‘Because an SNS-fan is all of that and therefore whatever we say is wrong.’ That isn’t okay for any of us to do regarding other sub-fandoms, nor is it in this case. And yet OP continues to say that they don’t personally prefer SNS followed with more subjective thoughts which is fine, but doesn’t prove anything. Honestly, in what way did you think this was better criticism? At what point did it actually answer the question or did it link their newly acquired research to the story? 

“As expected from Sasuke fans lol.” 

...uh, if you say so 👀 I'd personally would be a bit more specific. And I'm sorry but I don't know the other person you talked about ><

😩 you are all torturing yourselves reading these tbh

[beevean]

Hey it’s so called this morning’s anon back with more things to say I suppose…

I supposed I wanted to elaborate on some things, I know you said you didn’t wanna start discourse but I really wanted to elaborate on what I meant by that proshipping comment. The term proship, from what I heard, has gone from let people ship what they want and if you don’t like don’t look to… This person is a disgustingly vile subhuman and their death should be celebrated.

Funnily enough I openly ship problematic stuff, but I constantly over complicate things to prove that I’m still better than ‘those guys’, to say that I have morality and ‘they’ don’t… But it’s so fucking exhausted. My life wasn’t good and moral and pure so why does my art have to be?

I’m sick of fearing I’ll have someone genuinely threaten my life because I cope differently than them. Ironically I used to get mad when people say it was their coping mechanism, calling it a shitty excuse to be a whatever [You can insert all kinds of fun and degrading terms there] and yet… I was doing the same thing.

So yeah… I don’t like everything but I’m realizing that everything has its place and if that makes me a proshipper then fuck it I guess I’m a proshipper

[After reading all those kind messages I wanted some way to reveal myself because surprise you actually know who I am! But I wasn’t sure how to do that without outing myself so openly… I read your Hevor fic and told you about it on Discord, it’s the only thing we ever discussed. So yeah if you manage to figure me out based on that alone then congratulations! Purity culture is ruining my life so bad I can’t even say my own name! ;3]

fdjskfksdngksjdhk talk about efficient secret codes lmao. Yes I understand now 😄

That's pretty much what happened. "Proship" started as a countermovement to the "anti" culture budding around 2016 who were all like "Sheith is actually incest because they're like brothers and that's gross guys!!!!", and at first it meant simply "ship and let ship", but then it got twisted into meaning "someone who enjoys problematic ships/ships with incest, pedophilia and/or abuse", which inevitably leads to "this person has Something Wrong with them and they're a Bad Person who Hurts people like me with their Degenerate Art! Pedo alert pedo alert! PUNISHMENT FOR A THOUSAND YEARS".

The problem is that "enjoys" means a lot of things :^) there is a difference between "aww they're so cute <3", "welp this is a kink now", and "wow this would be incredibly fucked up but I am intrigued to explore this story". But nuance is not allowed, apparently.

(fun fact: I don't really go through proship blogs because I swear they all ship sibling incest. I hate sibling ships lmao, especially when they're wholesome. But of course they're all in the "will accept anything" community, after being pretty much shunned and painted as horrible abusers who deserve to be hurt and worse - and just because I don't want to see those ships, that doesn't mean I think they're bad people who condone real-life abuse. So yeah, proship is not about having all the grossest ships in the world, you can be exclusively into the most vanilla M/F ships ever and still think "yo do what you want I'll respect you from a distance")

I also hear similar stories like yours, of people who twist themselves into pretending to be antis and be morally "purer" than others when in private they were doing the same things they were insulting others for, just with tons of shame and denial. Not judging you and I'm happy when people realize that this behavior is harmful, definitely more than being into the Problematic lol... I'm just disappointed and frustrated that the internet culture has come to this. I reiterate my points about surrounding yourself with friends who don't make you feel like you have to walk on eggshells.

Also real talk: you don't really have to psychoanalyze yourself. Maybe your tastes are tied to an easily identifiable reason, or maybe they aren't or the reason goes too deep to explore without outside help. In any case, it doesn't matter. You don't have to justify yourself in any way, let alone showing to everyone the "I'm Coping With Trauma" badge in the hopes they will forgive you - because it doesn't work. It's never about the mental health of victims, it's about "i feel icky and i don't want to :("

Disgust is not harm. You (general) have every right to be disgusted by something - I myself am not above it :P But it's not a personal attack against you, and it's your responsibility to walk away and coping with your feelings in private.