#shipping discourse

[allaboutalf]

Getting ready to drag out the old stan X/Twitter account cause wtf do you mean people who have watched the show for about two weeks & have only interacted with toxic buddie shippers are now jumping on the Tommy hate train?

There’s someone who got some traction live tweeting their watch about a week ago & it’s mind blowing to see them go from being neutral but into buddie to a full on easily led hater cause they’ve only interacted with vocal toxic fans.

Asking why people like Tommy when “all he did was be awful to Chim & Hen, apologise offscreen and kiss Buck”. If they just watched the eps about a week ago how did they forget that Tommy, Chim & Hen resolved their differences on screen & that Tommy literally risked his job & life to rescue Bobby & Athena just cause Chim asked.

You don’t have to love Tommy but the forced hate & ignoring his character development is frustrating.

It also is weird that they’ll double down on hating him over it all (& I know they’re doing it cause he’s the LI in the way of their ship) but hand wave away anything any of the other characters have done. None of them are perfect.

Plus, this whole virtue signaling narrative they’ve invented that he could have outed Buck to Eddie over a snarky closet joke that only Buck and the audience had context for - Eddie had literally just mentioned closet space - is so ridiculous it’s laughable. None of them cared when the episode aired but cause it’s gained traction within the toxic buddie fandom as something they can use to turn people against Tommy they’re now all jumping on to use it as a reason to hate.

I’m so so close to joining the few buddie and bucktommy/Kinley shippers over there I see trying to push back (& I do see you guys, I know you’re on here cause it’s a nicer environment, & I thank you for being willing to try to get through to those who are willfully ignorant). But while I like to vent here I really don’t want to engage with them.

[nicolovespancakes]

I hope you know if you say 'not a ship post' in your caption and I ship it,

I'm viewing it as a ship post.

<3

[screampotato]

Suddenly struck with a need to explain to you how boat pronouns work (I work in the marine industry).

When you're talking about the design of the boat, you say "it".

When the boat is still being built, your say "it".

When the boat is nearing completion, you can say "it" or "she".

When the boat is floating in the water you probably say "she", unless there is still a lot of work to be done (e.g. no engine yet) then you say "it".

When the boat is officially launched and operating, you say "she". If you continue to say "it" at this point you are not incorrect but suspiciously untraditional. You are not playing the game.

If you are referring to a boat you don't really know anything about you may say "it" ("there's a big boat, it's coming this way"). But if you know its name, it's probably "she" ("there's the Waverley, she's on her way to Greenock").

If you are talking about boats in general, you say "it" ("when a boat is hit by a wave it heels over")

If you speak about a boat in complimentary terms, it's "she" ("she's a grand boat"). If you are being disparaging it may be it, but not necessarily ("it's as ugly as sin", "she's a grotty old tub").

If she has a boy's name, she's still she. "Boy James", "King Edward", "Sir David Attenborough"? The pronoun is she.

If it's a dumb barge (no engine), you say it. But if it's a rowing boat (no engine), you say she.

I hope this has cleared things up so that you may not be in danger of misgendering floating objects.

[saintmachina]

Shipping fictional characters isn’t representative of your moral values. It’s representative of your particular psychic damage and the themes and motifs that haunt you. Hope this helps.

[nymph1e]

On Discomfort and Morality

My father finds gay men uncomfortable.

He's told me before that it's like a knee-jerk for him. Something he doesn't consciously control. He sees two men behaving romantically, and his body reacts with mild discomfort.

In the 1960s, when he was in high school, most of the boys in his form thought he was gay on the simple fact that he wasn't homophobic. He wouldn't participate in insulting queer people, he didn't care if someone was gay, he wouldn't have a problem hanging out with gay people. So people thought he was gay. That's how prevalent homophobia was in his formative years.

When I was 10, my dad told me very seriously that Holmes and Watson were gay. That it was obvious from the literature and the time period that they were meant to be a gay couple. When I was 14 and I came out to my parents as bi, when my mum was upset my dad ripped into her for it. Told her that she was being stupid, that it was my life to live how I wanted to and that she needed to get over herself.

My dad formed my views on censorship: that being that it was completely ridiculous and thoroughly evil. He didn't believe in censorship of any kind. If I asked him a question about sex, he answered it honestly. When I was 12 and I asked him about homosexuality, still young and uncertain, he told me that there was nothing wrong with it. That it was just how some people were. That there was likely an evolutionary reason for it. And that for some people it was uncomfortable on an instinctual level.

He taught me that just because you're uncomfortable with something, doesn't make it wrong. He also taught me that most people don't understand this.

I see a lot of this on the internet as of the last few years. The anti shipping movement, the terf movement, the anti ace movement. It all stems from discomfort that people have crossed wires into believing means wrong. Really every -ism and -phobia out there stems from this same fundamental aspect of humanity.

The next time you see something and you automatically think it's disgusting, or wrong, or immoral, I invite you to ask yourself: is this actually wrong or does this just make me uncomfortable?

[garnet-xx-rose]

Yes, I’ve done the work analyzing this relationship’s problematic traits and I’ve come to the educated conclusion that I still want them to fuck

[bebx]

“this ship is not canon” babe, they’re fictional characters. they’re not real. they’re literally dolls we play with. we don’t care about whether or not these fictional characters’ love story is canon in this piece of media that is also entirely based on fiction. I mean, sure, canon would be lovely, but it’s a bonus. it’s not necessary. what we care about is the fun of talking about these 2 idiots being in love.

we don’t give a fuck if they didn’t kiss in “canon”. they had raw sex in thousands of fics about them though. and I’d say that’s more than enough to make people who ship them happily ship them even harder. happy shipping!

[mywitchcultblr]

Stop putting DNI on your tags and stop bringing shipping discourse into AO3

AO3 hid the story and asked OP to remove the tag (the fanfic is not even removed) due to the inflammatory tag. That's deserved. AO3 is not a social media for people to fight over ship and chronically online discourse. It's a library. If people keep bringing DNI and discourse into AO3 it'll make the place toxic for writers and reader.

What are you trying to accomplish with putting DNI? Do you think people actually care about DNI? No, it's just making you looking like an asshole doing this

Also AO3 was founded by a Wincest and Thorki shipper. Astolat made AO3 because FF net and other sites keep purging nsfw fanfic. AO3 is literally made for problematique shipper that op don't like.

Then OP doing this? For what? People want to enjoy reading their fanfic not seeing DNI and online discourse on AO3. I hate using the word virtue signaling as it's often used to demean progress but this is what a real virtue signaling looks like 🤦🤦‍♀️

(I bet op wrote more inflammatory tags on their fic other than 'proshitter DNI get a life' because it take a lot to get your story hidden or removed)

[clearancecreedwatersurvival]

Okay I take it back the actual funniest thing about how many people performatively hate on scum villain because they think it’s bad and trashy and irredeemable and Problematic is that they are unwittingly re-enacting an almost perfect impression of the main character, a young terminally online guy who hate read a trashy porn novel and got in so many internet fights about how bad and irredeemable and garbage it was that he died choking on his rage and was transported to suffer the role of expendable backstory villain in the world of this trashy porn novel he hated so much.

And that’s fucking hilarious.

[darci-tbh]

everytime I see antis call themselves punk I lose hope in the internet again

I don't know how to say this but policing people's right to create and consume any fiction they want AND advocating for the corporal punishment of "thought criminals" cannot and will not ever be punk. shut up

[allthingswhumpyandangsty]

personally, I think people are allowed to ship a “toxic ship” as long as it’s fictional and they can separate fiction from reality. shipping a fictional “problematic ship” doesn’t mean you’re “abuse apologist” in real life. the same way people who enjoy fictional villains are not “murderers” in real life.

it’s okay if you think this ship makes you uncomfortable and so you personally dislike it. what you can and should do is avoid their contents and refrain from interacting with people who do ship them. that mute and block buttons are your friends.

what you shouldn’t do, though, is harass people who ship them and brag about how they’re “red flags irl” and how you’re “morally superior” simply because of fictional characters.

I promise you, minding your own business and not caring about what ship strangers on the internet ship will make your fandom so much less toxic and a whole lot more enjoyable.

[count-horror-xx]

I actually like zutara as a concept, it's a ship I'll casually read fics about them sometimes.

it's just zutara fans are fucking delusional. Stop treating their Canon partners as abusive when it's the complete opposite. Especially Mai.

Aang isn't a misogynistic monk that forces katara to be his house wife. If he did katara would leave him in a millisecond. He actually cares so much about her. It's actually Canon HE cooks and accommodates his cultural food with kataras.

And Mai was literally ready to die for zuko. Even when they just broke up, she was ready to get electrocuted by azula if it wasn't for ty lee chi blocking azula.

I'm aware it seems like she doesn't care about him the way she's quiet and aloof but I understand where she was coming as someone who somewhat has similar tendencies of being a little awkward when trying to show emotions and it coming off as being uncaring or rude. But at the end of the day she really shows she loves him, so people saying she's abusive is completely inaccurate to her character.

Her bottling up her emotions was taught by her parents as she explains in the beach episode somewhat where she had to worry about her father's reputation all the the time, forcing her to be quiet as a form of behaving.

Personally I think her quiet personality fits with Zukos loud ass, especially giving him a reality check during the beach episode calling him out for being angry all the time and how he needs to keep it in check.

Zutara is a nice ship I agree but you can ship it without mischaracterizing tf out of thier Canon partners.

[azulaaaaaaah]

rating every zuko ship (cause that mf is shipped with everyone)

CLICKBAIT!!! this isn’t every zuko ship just the main ones i immediately lied lol. idk if any of these are hot takes or not but please don’t crucify me (might do a part 2 where it’s azula ships)

Jinko - Zuko/Jin

6/10

awwww it’s cute (for what it is)

and what it is was one singular date that was never really mentioned again

i really appreciate how jin is so unperturbed by zuko’s awkward angst and just genuinely likes him

howevvver she’s kinda one dimensional (as she’s only in like an episode) and i just don’t see this going anywhere longterm

less a ship, more a vehicle for zuko’s character development lol

Jetko- Zuko/Jet

3/10

jet being zuko’s first gay encounter is canon in my eyes

don’t ship them however cause i hate jet with the fire of a thousands suns

similar issues to jin as well where their interactions are extremely limited so personally have no clue how this could be a long term thing

Maiko- Zuko/Mai

5/10

i am so impartial on this ship it’s not even funny.

i get that it’s canon. i get that izumi looks suspiciously like mai so it’s endgame. i just don’t see HOW?? it feels as if the writers realised zutara was becoming popular and were like ‘OH SHIT WE GOTTA DEFUSE THIS SITUATION SOMEHOW’

their relationship is basically just mai being a cold asshole and zuko being an angry asshole and there’s no change or development between EITHER OF THEM

however when they’re cute they’re cute !!!!

‘i love zuko more than i fear you’ COLDEST LINE EVER

however again it’s like - you had a crush on him as a kid. he was BANISHED. you dated for like a month as teens. you argued the whole time. he left again- and shortly after you saved him from prison, but then you were imprisoned partly due to his actions. you get back together again, he becomes the ruler of a country, and then you’re surprised it’s isolating him/making him even more of an asshole???

on the other hand we as a society need to admit that zuko is weirdly possessive of her (ig that’s a positive if ur a booktok romance girlie but im not). like if i was mai i wouldn’t put up with that toxic shit either

at the end of the day, i honestly don’t care that they’re canon lol- but i think they’d probably best as a bitchy best friend duo

Zukaang - Zuko/Aang

1/10

not round here partner. not round here

my first issue is the age gap is objectively extremely weird if examined in canon. leaving it at that

i get that this is grumpy x sunshine in a way the other ships aren’t to me- but we’ve only ever seen these two characters interact with each other when there’s (again) A WEIRD AGE GAP

they are bros in the least homosexual way possible

the cherry on top of this situation is: isn’t aang the reincarnation of his great grandpa? isn’t that giving slight, uh, inc*st vibes??? imagine if people shipped korra and jinora isn’t that just WEIRD???

Zuki - Zuko/Suki

8/10

is this my most controversial take ???

i am a sucker for bodyguard x royal family dynamics guys

and the fact that this is girlboss x malewife is even BETTER

suki seems the most competent at handling his pissy ass in a way the other people on this list aren’t

like she’s real. she’s not sugarcoating his situation, BUT SHES COMPASSIONATE !!

i don’t like throuples typically but suzukki is even eliter than this, which removes the whole ‘going against the bro code’ element that arises from them being together

also i feel like if you haven’t read the comics this doesnt make sense At All so please do

-2 points for the lack of tangible reason to ship them lol

Zutara - Zuko/Katara

7.5/10

okay this one makes the most logistical sense to me within canon (solely examined as a zuko ship not overall)

it really seems as if they were gonna make this canon and swerved circa book 2

LIKE CMONNNN OG ENEMIES TO LOVERS WHERE THE GUY ACTUALLY HAS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT AND ISN’T JUST EVIL? FIRE X WATER? ITS INTRIGUING

something about this makes me uncomfortable though. (despite the age gap which again a little weird)

something about katara potentially becoming the fire lady is so… icky. she’s a waterbender. the fire nation tried to systematically erase her kind. her mother is killed by the fire nation because they think she’s a waterbender. and katara…. what, becomes part of the royal family? it just seems wrong, and like something she wouldn’t be into

also i feel like their arguments would be a little too NUCLEAR. there’s like, a 50% chance of divorce

she deserves a better ending than that is all i’m saying

to paraphrase the hunger games: katara has plenty of fire herself. SHE NEEDS THAT DANDELION IN THE SPRING MAN

(i’m a kataang truther)

Zukka - Zuko/Sokka

9/10

my zuko related otp!!!

bros to lovers guys, where zuko falls first but sokka falls HARDER !!!

ik this will never be canon and im happy with that. i know there’s not even a whisper of romance between them in the show, but i just think it’s c u t e .

sokka (like suki) is very likely to call zuko out on his shit, but less likely to lose his own shit (like katara)

this in my heart of hearts is 10/10 however is still problematic in a similar way to zutara

his mother is killed by the fire nation and he (presumably) becomes consort ?

however though, i would still say it’s not as ruhroh as zutara bc firstly, sokka isn’t a waterbender, and secondly, ‘consort’ is a lot more open to interpretation than i think fire lady is. in my opinion a consort ≠ a fire lady, just like irl a consort ≠ a queen. it kinda means he can still be ambassador to the southern water tribe/a leader of his own people, while just so happening to be married to the fire lord.

overall i can’t help but stan a friends to lover ship cmOn now

[sunsis]

Fandoms will ship two het men who simply breathe next to each other but god forbid a Black woman has a relationship with or even just chemistry with the popular male lead. And this happens in EVERY fandom (see tags for examples) with a prominent Black female character. They were even vehemently against Miles Morales and the Black spider girl (Margo).

It’s just very telling that certain people are suddenly “platonic love/besties/sibling energy only otherwise the show is ruined!!” when the fem character is Black.

It’s ok to not ship characters, but the overwhelming backlash to these specific ones has been so ridiculous and very obviously racially motivated. There are articles now discussing whether harmless shipping of two fictional adult characters is acceptable, and on the cover of them is typically an interracial pairing involving a Black woman…

[brettdoesdiscourse]

Antis: Normal people wouldn't be okay with your freak shit!

Normal people: Watches Game Of Thrones where a rape victim falls in love with her rapist and many viewers enjoyed their relationship, even quoting their saying or getting jewelry of it. (Not even mentioning the incest.)

Normal people: Enjoys IT which has numerous scenes of child sexual abuse, torture/abuse, racism, even a child orgy that is written to be a good thing at the end of the book.

Normal people: Watches Star Wars where two of the main characters are siblings and kiss.

Normal people: Enjoys mythology which often includes themes like incest which are not "bad" things in the stories.

Normal people: Reads/watches and romanticizes Romeo And Juliet. A story where two young people (one of which is 16 and the other is 13 in Shakespeare btw) kill themselves over each other.

Normal people: Watch/read/play violent media and root for the killers, especially enjoying things where they themselves are the murderer.

[brsb4hls]

Ok, but if you wanna circle that Siken quote around, maybe post the whole thing?

The second part is the important one.

Also, for those who still can't seperate fiction from reality and are obvi already pestering him, because he dared to name that ship: