#Iroh-critical

[zuko-always-lies]

It’s interesting to note that Azula makes a very serious effort to reconcile with her brother, to show kindness to him, and to fix her broken relationship with him. It’s futile. It doesn’t work, in the end. Likely it never could have worked, with the shadow of Ozai hanging over the siblings.  She doesn’t manage to repair her relationship with her brother, and by the end of the series it’s worse than ever. Her efforts to show kindness to Zuko (see “The Beach”) never lead to Zuko attempting to show kindness to her or to him even slightly reevaluating his perception of her. In fact, her attempts at reconciliation lead to her losing everything: her friends, her father’s favor, her favored position, her freedom, even her sanity.  It’s worse than futile.

Yet her attempt says volumes about who she is as a character, about who she wants to be a person, just like Zuko’s attempt to save Zhao at the Siege of the North says volumes about who he is as a person, even though it was futile and likely impossible(odds are the spirit of the ocean could pull an awful lot stronger than a 16 year old).

Could Zuko, Ursa, and/or have “saved” Azula within the confines of the story of Avatar: The Last Airbender? Could they have caused her to take a different path, caused her to avoid her canon sad fate? Perhaps, but likely not, especially considering that Ursa and Iroh barely understood even “saving Zuko” as an objective. Does the fact that they combine for zero on screen acts of kindness toward Azula still speak volumes about their characters, about who they are as people?* Does the fact that Ursa and Iroh show no empathy toward Azula still say a lot about who they are as people? Does that fact that Iroh demonizes his abused 14 year old niece while giving his abusive, imperialist asshole of a brother a pass still speak volumes about who he is as a person? Yes.

The manner with which Azula’s “good” family members treat her is far more about them than it about her.

*Note: I mostly give Zuko a pass on this, for obvious reasons, but it still says important things about his character and his relationship with his family.

[azulas-daddy-kink]

[clown-cult]

I think my favourite thing from the new avatar show so far is that they make it unavoidably clear that Iroh is a war criminal. Yes, he was brought up to believe in the propaganda he supported and fought for, he’s suffered great personal loss, has learned from that and he’s a changed man, but he was once the scariest person in the world. A butcher, as one character says.

Whoever wrote that looked at all the Iroh worship that the comics and other material from the animated show gave us over the last few years and took personal issue with that and I love them for it.

Someone saw Azula and especially Ozai get billed as just evil from birth while the rest of the family never did anything bad ever and decided to address that by expanding on everyone’s experiences.

So, say what you will about the show, but shoutout to whoever it was that decided to remind everyone that Iroh is a beloved character because of his complexity and past flaws, and just how severe those past flaws are.

[mugentakeda]

azula tje weirdest baby ever

[akiizayoi4869]

Had some thoughts about Iroh and Azula earlier. I'm sure we all remember this scene, right?

Now, this post isn't about how Iroh was wrong for giving her that look and being suspicious and on edge around her when he hasn't seen Azula for 3 years. He actually was right to be suspicious, precisely BECAUSE of that fact. They had no contact for 3 years, and suddenly she shows up out of the blue. That would make anyone rightfully suspicious. But again, that's not what this post is about. This is about the fact that the last time Iroh saw Azula, Ozai had burned Zuko's face. Showing Iroh that he wasn't above harming his children if it suited him. Azula was alone with Ozai for 3 years. Who knows what happened to her during that time frame. And yet, Iroh shows no concern for her well being whatsoever. Doesn't ask how she's been doing all this time or anything like that. Just greets her with disdain. Like. That's just seriously chilling and fucked up. And I didn't even notice this until now. And for someone like Iroh's character, and the way how he is with Zuko? All caring and loving? That just...does not make sense as a writing choice. At all.

Why I think his relationship with Azula, or rather lack there of, is portrayed this way, is because the writers were so focused on making Azula into this badass villain who could even make Iroh of all people be on his guard around her, that they forgot that she was also his niece. Someone who was also in desperate need of help, just like Zuko was. Someone who needed love just like Zuko did. And yet we never see Iroh even attempt to extend that to her at all. The fact that even Aaron Ehasz came out and admitted that the way they wrote Iroh when it came to Azula didn't match how the portrayed his character overall further proves this theory.

[songazula]

my question is this: why do atla stans care more about an 11 year old azula's reaction to ozai burning zuko than what iroh did or could've done at that moment?

[anonymous-gambito]

"Zuko's biggest mistake was not listening to everything Iroh said"

If he did that he would've been captured by earth kingdom soldiers and been poisoned by a plant, at the least

[the-badger-mole]

You know what's interesting to me? How many people seem to think that Iroh owed Azula what he gave to Zuko. As if he could have stopped Azula's spiral somehow. Azula had been out of reach of everyone since she was a very young child, and she embraced it! She was Ozai's favorite, and she was proud of that. The tragedy of Azula isn't just that she was a victim of Ozai's golden-childism, it was also that her own hubris didn't let her see that the way she operated was a problem. Zuko's saving grace, aside from being rejected by Ozai, was his natural capacity for empathy. Something that Azula didn't have (which, btw, was not necessarily a fault. A lot of people aren't born naturally empathetic. It's something many people have to learn, but Azula never even tried to learn).

With Zuko, Iroh had something to work with. Despite his anger and hardheadedness, Zuko's nature wasn't to be ruthless. Yes, Iroh was a protective, guiding presence when Zuko needed it, but the foundation was already there. Still, had Ozai decided to keep his son at his side and raise him like he raised Azula, there is little Iroh would've been able to do for either of them. Not only was Ozai their father, he was also the most powerful man in the nation. There was no getting CPS involved. There was no calling Ozai out for his abuse and favoritism. The best Iroh could've done was stay close and tried to do what he could to counteract Ozai's influence. Which, to be clear, would've probably been even less than Ursa was able to. He couldn't even stop Ozai from burning Zuko, and had he not been banished, Ozai probably would've killed him eventually. The only reason Iroh was able to help Zuko was because Ozai had thrown him away.

Another thing is that Zuko made different choices than his sister. Azula's choices are what take her from an abuse victim who needed saving to a villain whose tragic backstory won't stop her from deep frying anyone who stands in her way. One of the biggest criticisms I see of Iroh was that he said that Azula was "crazy and needed to go down", forgetting the context that she had just nearly succeeded in killing him, and that she had tried to kill Zuko just a few episodes earlier. Iroh wasn't there when she threatened her crew with death if they didn't sail their ship through dangerous waters, but the audience saw and did have that context when Iroh said that. If there was ever a chance for Azula to change, it would have to begin with her wanting to change. She had people she could've practiced empathy with. She had people who would've loved her if she gave them half a chance. She had people she could've practiced empathy with. No, she didn't choose to be Ozai's golden child, and she wasn't in any way responsible for his abuse, but she was responsible for how she treated others. Iroh had no chance of helping her because she didn't want it.

[evilprincesss]

what iroh should have been, and how it would've impacted zuko and azula's arcs

in terms of canon atla, aside from my criticisms of the orientalism woven into the show's fabric, its pattern of telling not showing, the tumor-like presence of filler episodes that don't do enough as character studies or dynamic studies (mostly in book 3; in book 1 i'm more forgiving of these since atla was still finding its groove), and my issues with zuko's redemption arc not challenging his political beliefs in a meaningful way, the thing that i would consider its biggest failure writing-wise is the fact that iroh is not intentionally portrayed as a morally gray character.

the thing about iroh is that he is a longtime war criminal. they try to soft retcon some of that in book 3 by making his nickname "the dragon of the west" about him pretending to have hunted the dragons into extinction and by making him a part of the white lotus, but this to me is not only grievously boring but also a waste of his character.

i understand why the idea of iroh as little more than zuko's loving, wise, and kooky uncle makes people happy. it means zuko gets to have a father figure who loves him unconditionally and makes him feel safe. that's a lovely concept! but not a very interesting one in terms of the narrative, nor is it one congruent with iroh's initial characterization.

think of the absolute contempt and terror he struck into those earthbenders who tried to arrest him in book 1. think of the fact that he besieged ba sing se for 600 days straight well into his adulthood (his age is unclear, but i'd presume he's somewhere in his mid to late 50s throughout atla, so he would at youngest in his 40s when he lead the siege of ba sing se). think of the fact that iroh only changed his mind about his very active part in the war as a grown man once his son was killed. think of the fact that iroh spent 3 years with zuko in exile without ever once actively making a real effort to help zuko unlearn the fire nation propaganda he was indoctrinated with from birth or to truly help him understand that ozai abused him. think of the fact that the white lotus didn't really do much of anything throughout the war to end it.

what picture do these facts paint? is it really that of a reformed war criminal? no, not really.

iroh loves zuko unconditionally. he is patient and kind and loving with zuko. i don't think there's much, if any, room to argue with that. i am not denying that to zuko, iroh is a loving, wise, and kooky uncle.

however, i am saying that iroh is multifaceted. he is zuko's loving, wise, and kooky uncle, and he is also a war criminal who, despite the show telling us has reformed his ways, is not shown to have done so in any meaningful way. he does not do much to help zuko to unlearn imperialist propaganda, does not do much to discourage zuko from trying to capture the avatar, and does not do much at all to end the war.

this makes for an incredibly interesting and dynamic character! this is a character who believes that his personal kindness absolves him of his heinous political misdeeds. that is why he does not do anything meaningful to challenge imperialism where he sees it. that is why he is also a kind, loving man. he's hugely flawed, but he also has virtues that make you want him to overcome his flaws! there is so much room for him to develop whether its negatively or positively, and there is so much that can be done with the relationships he has, especially his relationship with zuko! furthermore, this is the summation of what the canon material overall most strongly presents us with.

but it's not how the narrative wants us to view iroh, so it's not how the narrative treats him.

instead, we are told that iroh is a reformed war criminal (and later even the notion that he was in the wrong for his military service to the fire nation is soft retconned) who is now nothing but a loving and supportive uncle to zuko. he's unfailingly kind to both zuko and the gaang, ty lee lets slip that she actually rather likes him despite azula's contempt of him to show us that ty lee is an antivillain who will be redeemed (despite her political beliefs never being actually challenged in a meaningful way), and really the only people iroh is unkind to or who dislike him are azula and ozai to highlight to the audience that they are villains.

this makes for an incredibly static character who essentially only exists to love zuko and act as his moral tether despite the fact that iroh never actually challenges zuko's political beliefs. iroh does not need to grow or develop within the narrative atla tells us exists. he has already done his self-reflection and repented for his behavior. he is a figure of moral authority. while this makes him feel safe and good to viewers who accept what atla tells them without question, in addition to not aligning with what's actually shown, it also makes him insanely bland from a narrative perspective.

but what if atla intentionally portrayed him as morally gray? what if they leaned into his shortcomings?

here's the thing about if iroh is intentionally portrayed as morally gray: zuko's redemption arc improves drastically, and azula's is given a much better opportunity to begin.

hear me out. if iroh is morally gray, then he is not solely there to show zuko what real, unconditional love looks like so that zuko can replace his abusive father with a loving father figure, giving him the strength to do the right thing and join the gaang. i'm not saying iroh no longer serves this function in the narrative; i'm saying that now that iroh does this, and his failure to meaningfully repent for his war crimes and to challenge imperialism creates conflict with zuko. you see, if iroh is morally gray, then his failure to challenge zuko's political beliefs (i.e. imperialism is good) is something that zuko is forced to reckon with throughout his redemption arc.

this would mean that zuko is finally actually challenged in his political beliefs as opposed to simply accepting that people are afraid of him because he is a destructive firebender/the prince and thus representative of the harm they have endured throughout the war. furthermore, it means that zuko has to go against a father figure who has treated him well, so his redemption is no longer a matter rooted in kindness but in moral conviction. zuko doesn't have to lose his love for iroh to do this; in fact, that would be a very boring way to portray this. it is far more interesting if zuko has the internal conflict of both loving his uncle and condemning him politically as he struggles to do the right thing in spite of that love.

the idea of zuko managing to grow beyond iroh and do the right thing even though it is hard, even though it means not only going against ozai's malice but also iroh's complicty, is one that would round zuko's arc out better.

it's also one that would open up the gates for an azula redemption arc a lot more than what canon does (although canon azula is still redeemable).

if zuko outgrows iroh enough to challenge his inaction, then he has outgrown iroh enough to start to really see his flaws.

one of zuko's main flaws in canon is that he has a very black and white way of thinking. this is a hugely defining flaw for him. it's why he struggled to accept that ozai abused him, why he struggled to see that his pursuit of the avatar and thus the war as a whole was wrong, why he got physically ill when he was confronted with the fact that he was harming people, etc.

but if zuko starts to see that iroh's inaction as a flaw despite the fact that iroh loves him so sincerely and is so kind to most everyone, then he can start to break this black and white thinking. like ozai, iroh is no longer on a pedestal in zuko's mind. this would lead to the unearthing of more of iroh's flaws.

in conjunction with the fact that zuko has now seen proof of azula's pain (her psychotic break in the last agni kai), this means that zuko can start to place blame where its due with people over her pain.

i am under no delusions about the state of zuko's relationship with azula in canon. i've expanded on my thoughts about the love between them here if you'd like to see them, but i can sum it up as so: while azula cares about zuko in her own deeply screwed up way, zuko doesn't really care about azula because he is shortsighted and struggles to empathize with her or even see a need to.

however, seeing proof that azula has been harmed too means that zuko would finally see a reason she is worthy of his empathy. the first, most obvious, and easiest to identify (for zuko) perpetrator is, of course, ozai. like with the war, ozai is clearly malicious. now that zuko has admitted and accepted that his father was abusive to him, it is much easier for him to admit that their father is responsible for azula's pain too. this much i believe is likely in canon as well.

the next person for zuko to look to, which can only happen if zuko has opened his eyes, is iroh. like with the war post 600 day siege, iroh was not malicious in his treatment of azula, but he was still complicit. iroh may not have abused azula, but he did neglect her entirely. he did not give her a chance to ever be anything but what ozai told her she should be. he did not show her love and compassion the way he did zuko. furthermore, he not only failed to encourage zuko to ever try doing so, he actively discouraged him from attempting to.

to be clear: i don't think zuko should be a mentor figure to azula during her redemption. like azula, he's just a kid. he's still growing and learning himself. he also doesn't really understand her at all, even if he has realized that she was hurt too. he doesn't understand how she was, and he's going to have to spend a lot of time reconciling the way their father's abuse colored his perception of her with how she actually is. furthermore, their relationship is complicated and full of pain for them both, so relying too heavily on it to help azula recover and redeem herself would end badly if we're being realistic.

but zuko seeing that azula was abused by their father and seeing that their uncle's failure to ever give her a chance to understand real love is crucial to him realizing that the asylum is not somewhere that gives her a real shot at recovery and redemption.

whether or not azula takes that shot when it's given to her is a more complicated story that would involve both zuko and azula having to reflect more wholly and honestly on ursa than i think either of them ever have before as well as some likely very painful conversations challenging the way she, like all other fire nation citizens, was indoctrinated, but do you see how interesting treating iroh as the morally gray character he is could be?

even if you don't want to see a redeemed azula (i personally do, but the possibility of her rejecting the idea of redemption is also quite fascinating and tragic in this context), zuko's arc and the commentary made about redemption and second chances overall are made so much more interesting and nuanced by this simple choice.

[theerurishipper]

Zuko Did Not Abuse Azula in the Comics.

I'm gonna do it. After a lifetime of never posting any of my own posts in the ATLA fandom, I am gonna talk about this. "This" is the arguments sprung forth that Zuko abused Azula in the comics, more specifically The Search. Now, I don't think the comics are well-written, but what they don't do in any capacity is paint a picture of Zuko abusing Azula. And despite this, I've seen several claims about how Zuko did in fact, treat Azula cruelly and horribly and let the Gaang abuse her happily. And I might not like the comics, but that's just flat out wrong. So, I'm writing a rebuttal to all the arguments I've seen on the topic, at least, as many as I can remember. What I'll do is quote an argument and use evidence from the comic to rebut it, and hopefully people will stop claiming that the abuse victim treated his abusive sister the way she treated him all their lives. So yeah.

To be clear, I'm not making this post to hate on Azula's character or something. I'm not making this to start a fight, or to make people angry. I mostly made this to express my own frustrations about some things I've seen.

And it's probably a bit too late for this, but if you think Zuko did abuse Azula or whatever, you're entitled to your opinion, but please don't interact with this post. I've tagged the anti tags and placed my text under a read more, so y'all don't have to read it.

This gets long, so under the cut it is. Let's go.

Argument: "Azula is protesting being treated cruelly and Ty Lee chi-blocks her for no reason at all! And Zuko doesn't protest this cruel treatment of his sister! He's abusing her!"

Ty Lee chi-blocked Azula after Azula attacked Zuko and displayed violent behavior. On top of being Zuko's bodyguard and therefor responsible for protecting him, Ty Lee also has a great fear of Azula because of how Azula treated her in their past. Zuko tries to be kind to his sister by bringing her tea and she attacks him. Furthermore, Zuko also protests her being chi-blocked even after she does so. He tries to treat her with dignity and be kind to her but Azula herself is the one to sneer at his efforts.

Argument: "Zuko is awful for leaving Azula alone with her abuser! He doesn't care about her well-being!"

I agree that Azula shouldn't be allowed to talk to Ozai. Ozai abused Azula as well, and contact with him would only cause her more problems. However, Zuko doesn't know this. He himself is an abuse victim, and all he's seen his whole life is that Ozai favored Azula over him. And Azula used this to place herself in a position of power over him. She's always tried to drive it into his head that their father liked her better than him and that he was worthless in Ozai's eyes. Naturally, Zuko assumes (incorrectly) that Azula has some kind of special relationship with Ozai that he doesn't. He knows Azula has not had a perfect and healthy life, but he is not privy to the details. He doesn't know what's going on in her head. This is because he is not a mind reader, and she refuses to let herself be vulnerable in front of him because she believes she is better than him and that vulnerability is a weakness.

Even in the comic, she expresses no hatred or fear of her father, and doesn't indicate to Zuko that she does not want to be alone with him. She shouldn't have contact with him, of course, but she refuses to admit that her father is responsible for how she is now and that he has hurt her. She blames her mother, she blames Zuko and his friends, she blames Mai and Ty Lee, but she refuses to blame herself and most importantly, she refuses to blame Ozai. She's still behaving the way he wants, attacking Zuko and, if I may bring up Smoke and Shadow even if it pains me, she's trying to get Zuko to be like Ozai. She herself expresses the desire to speak with Ozai in the panels above, so if she herself hasn't acknowledged the way Ozai has hurt her or how he has abused her, and if she is still under the belief that he loves her, how is Zuko supposed to know any better? He's not doing anything he thinks might hurt her because she hasn't expressed that it hurts her, because she herself doesn't believe it does. And yes, it does hurt her, but it's not Zuko's fault for not being able to magically comprehend that, especially since she has spent her life driving the opposite message into his head, that Ozai favors her and not him.

Argument: "Zuko threw his little sister in an institution! He didn't care for her or for what became of her! He just left her in there to rot!"

What should he have done then? How should he have dealt with her? Azula may be traumatized and in need of help, but Zuko isn't the one to give that to her. He doesn't owe that to her after everything she's done to him, and he doesn't have the capability to help her himself. Azula has always expressed hatred for her brother and has been very clear about the fact that she considers him weak. He tries to help her and she rebuffs him continuously, choosing to attack him instead. She still wants him dead, and she has still not expressed any opposition to the things she learnt from Ozai. She still considers her brother a failure, she still hasn't mentioned that she thinks genocide is wrong, and she certainly doesn't think she's to blame for anything.

Given free reign, she attacks Zuko and manipulates him, and she is obviously too dangerous to let loose. The most Zuko can do is get her the help she needs, which is what he tried to do. I find the whole way these comics deal with mental health distasteful, especially with regard to Azula, but that's a flaw in the writing, not the characters. Zuko could have thrown her in prison like Ozai, since she was complicit in his war efforts. But he recognized that she needed help and tried to provide it for her. I wonder what anyone who criticizes Zuko for this would suggest he should do instead. Keep in mind that Azula is an imperialist and staunch supporter of Ozai's quest to take over the world. She also attempted to kill Zuko multiple times and has expressed no remorse for it.

And also, there is the argument that the institution is abusive and that Azula was mistreated in there. And where is the evidence of that? No, seriously, I went and looked through the comics, and I didn't see any evidence that Azula was abused in there. It seems to be a headcanon. Of course Azula resents being put in an institution, especially when she believes nothing is wrong with her and since she so adamantly refuses to let anyone help her. But nowhere does she mention that she hates it because the people there hurt her or something. And where else could she get help for her problems? Should Zuko take on a second job as her therapist? Should Iroh leave his life in Ba Sing Se behind to come and help a niece who has only ever hated him and wanted him dead? People say that the straitjacket is proof of her being abused, and I don't really like it either, but considering that she is eagerly awaiting the opportunity to attack Zuko, the straitjacket is probably a precaution to make sure she doesn't hurt anyone. Not that it stops her.

And when Zuko does try to help her some other way by offering for her to stay in the palace instead to make her more comfortable, she attacks him. So.

Also, these comics totally forgot how lightning-bending works.

Argument: "Zuko violently coerced his mentally ill sister to come with him on a mission to find his mother!"

She's also Azula's mother, actually. And he didn't coerce her. She blackmailed him and forced herself onto the trip. It was entirely her own decision to come with them and it was not Zuko who forced her to do anything.

Argument: "The Gaang attack Azula for no reason! They're threatening her violently!"

I mean, considering everything she's done to them and still hasn't given up on wanting to do, it's expected that they would be wary of her and perceive her as a threat. Remember when the Gaang pulled their weapons on Zuko, and only didn't attack him because he tried talking to them? Azula here is still antagonizing them and is still calling them derogatory terms like "peasant," so she still hasn't given up her beliefs of superiority. Which obviously doesn't give them a very positive impression.

Argument: "Iroh always expresses ill will and hatred towards Azula and thinks she's a lost cause! He encourages Zuko to hurt her because he thinks she's irredeemable!"

Iroh expresses the wish for Azula to find peace the way he believes Zuko will.

Argument: "The Gaang treated Azula cruelly and threatened her for no reason! They started abusing her the moment they got the chance to, when Azula was defenseless and unable to protect herself at all!"

Here we have exhibit A, where Aang cruelly laughs in Azula's face and greets her mockingly, while Azula is respectful of the people she has hurt many times over.

Oh wait. He greets her cheerfully and kindly, and she starts ordering the Gaang around like they're her servants.

Argument: "Sokka threatened Azula violently for no reason and Azula was just defending herself!"

Sokka didn't even do anything to her. He waves his boomerang near her and tells her not to try anything. And yet the way some people will use this scene is to suggest that he was outright attacking her when she was vulnerable or something. And yet she is well off enough to shoot lightning at him unprovoked. Considering all of Azula's actions, they are well within their rights to keep her in control. Would you say Katara was unjustified for threatening Zuko with death right after he joined them? Was she abusing Zuko then? The answer is no.

Azula has been well known for committing many acts of violence against them, including but not limited to pursuing them relentlessly, attacking them, taking over Ba Sing Se, trying to kill them, actually killing Aang, almost killing Zuko, and she is complicit in the crimes of the Fire Nation. She has done nothing to prove that she's changed her ways and that she is now not interested in killing them, and we later learn that she still does want to attack them. Sokka is well within his rights to threaten her since she has inflicted so much harm on his friends and might still do so. But Azula has no such right. The only reason she has so much free reign is because of Zuko's compassion. The Gaang are right to be suspicious and wary of her after everything she's done and she has no right to be disdainful about that. Do you think if Zuko showed up to join the Gaang and shot sparks at them when he got irritated, that they would not be in the right for perceiving it as a threat? Would you say that Zuko should be allowed to act violently with the Gaang in that situation?

She is here because she manipulated her brother and the fact that she is being allowed on this trip unbound is much more than what she realistically deserves. And she proves Sokka right by attacking him. Sokka merely waved a boomerang in her face (he wasn't even that close to her, actually, and he certainly wasn't in her face) and warned her not to try anything, and she tried something instantly. Just before this when Zuko was with her, she attacked him. No matter her mental state or her age, Azula is dangerous and deadly, and she has not changed. They have no reason to trust her. They have the right to be distrustful of her and to warn her not to step out of line. I know people like to ignore the fact that Azula is still an Ozai sympathizer and an imperialist who partook gleefully in the war efforts and like to only see her as a mentally ill 14-year-old girl, but that's not what the show says, and neither do the comics, so.

I'm guessing it's wrong of the Gaang to react when someone who has previously proved to be more than ready to hurt them and kill them tries to hurt one of their friends. Sure, Azula wasn't going to hurt him severely, but she sure did hurt him enough for him to yell out and fall down. And considering everything else, the Gaang are right to try to protect themselves from someone they perceive as a threat. Sokka wasn't even close to her, damn it. Azula has no right at all to be making demands of the Gaang, and they don't have an obligation to treat her the way she wants to be, like they are her servants and like they are inferior to her.

Argument: "Zuko threatens Azula for no reason and abuses her!"

Azula is someone who has proven to be a threat time and again, and here she is yelling strange things and inching closer with an angry look in her eye. For people like Zuko, it is understandable that this looks like a threatening situation. We know what Azula is talking about, but all they can see is her behaving in a way that could be threatening.

She yells accusatory things and looks angry, and she is moving closer to the rest of the Gaang, almost like she is ready to attack them for something. And so Zuko tells her that that's enough. And he releases some... steam, I guess? He doesn't even bend a flame. And yet he's abusing her somehow. And then she makes it sound like he's overreacting. If someone you knew was dangerous started coming closer to you while yelling with a strange look in their eyes, would you try to wonder why exactly they're behaving like this and if they're alright, or would you prepare to defend yourself?

And here we also see Azula blaming the Gaang for ruining her life and not, you know, her abuser Ozai. So sure, of course she'd accept Zuko's help when she thinks he's to blame for her misfortune and not her own actions and Ozai's abuse.

I too wish Toph was here.

Argument: "The Gaang abused a defenseless Azula, Part 2."

Defenseless Azula breaks the deal she forced Zuko to make with her and jumps off Appa when they're too high.

Aang saves her and she blasts him.

Now, we know in this scene that Azula is having visions of her mother and that she's hearing things. We know that she's not exactly of sound mind when she goes on rampages. But the Gaang doesn't know that. Zuko doesn't know that, and he has no way of knowing because she won't tell him. Even when he asks her who she is talking to, she just yells at him and rebuffs him.

Look at Zuko, saying that he doesn't want to fight Azula with a sad expression. How abusive!

Azula throws the first blow here. She isn't seeing things when she attacks Zuko, she just used him to get here and now she wants to get rid of him. And Zuko is doing what he said he'd do, keeping her in line. And don't say he should have just let Azula go. He wouldn't be a very good Fire Lord if he let the lightning bending imperialist go off on her own.

And then the Gaang takes her down after she attacked them first. So if that's abuse, then I don't know what to say.

Argument: "Zuko abusing his sister, Part 3."

Very abusive, yes.

Oh, and he finds a secret she's been keeping from him! That's so abusive!

Argument: "Zuko abusing his mentally ill sister, Part 4."

She attacks him first. You could make the argument that it's because she's having visions of her mother, and yeah, she is. But Zuko doesn't know all this because she won't tell him. And also, as it should be obvious to everyone, that's not an excuse.

Then there's a fight scene.

Argument: "Zuko cruelly held Azula off a cliff to threaten her and hurt her! He's abusing her while she is clearly not well!"

Ah, this infamous scene. Where Zuko holds his weak and defenseless sister off a cliff and laughs maniacally at her suffering while she pleads with him to spare her- oh wait.

Obviously, he dragged her to a cliff just so he could hold her off it. It's not like they were fighting in that environment. It's not like she just fell near the cliff's edge and he picked her up.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with what he did. He's clearly defending himself from her, and holds her over the cliff so that she won't attack him again, and so that he can make her listen to him after she has acted out again and again in a violent and dangerous way. She was attacking him, and this was the only way he could get her to listen to him. If you think he was considering dropping her, you don't know Zuko at all.

Anyway, this is actually one of the few scenes from any of these comics that actually made me feel something. It's an expression of the tragedy of their relationship from Zuko, and also him standing up to another abuser in his life. Yes, Azula abused Zuko, that much is not up for debate. Here, Zuko is finally confronting Azula on the horrible was she's treated him their whole life. I don't begrudge him that. And him saying "since the day you were born," is obviously not literal. Like, I can't believe I have to say this unironically. If people say "I must have walked a thousand miles," do we take it literally or do we understand that it is an exaggerated way of expressing that someone has walked a long way? It's the same thing here. Just because Zuko exaggerates his speech does not mean that the sentiment he is expressing is untrue. This is such a stupid line to get hung up over, but gotta take every inch you get when the whole text is against you, I guess.

Argument: "The Gaang abusing Azula, Part 5."

Where the Gaang verbally abuse Azula who is clearly hurt by their cruel words- hold on.

Ah, yes. Call the people who are somehow still putting up with you "louts," Azula. I am sure that is a very good and proper way to treat people who have every right to throw you back in jail and be on their way. They don't even say anything back to her. The Gaang has the patience of saints, honestly.

Thank you Sokka for being the one with common sense. I suppose he's also a villain now for saying "she's tried to kill us twelve times" when that's not true, it was only about two times. Which clearly makes it better.

Argument: "Zuko abusing Azula, Part 6."

Azula antagonizes a child, Zuko tells her to knock it off.

He's being so cruel to her.

Argument: "The Gaang abusing Azula, Part 7."

She attacked them. They defended themselves. It doesn't matter if she saw her mother in a vision. That's not an excuse and it's not the Gaang's problem. It's not Zuko's obligation to help his abuser, especially since she doesn't want his help anyway.

Gee, all these arguments are starting to sound awfully similar. It's almost like Azula always instigates fights and the Gaang defend themselves. Hmm.

Argument: "Zuko abusing Azula, Part 8."

She attacked first. Again.

This time she even attacked two actually defenseless people.

Argument: "Zuko gave the Gaang permission to attack Azula for no reason at all! The used their position to abuse her!"

No, he gave them permission to take her down because she went too far and attacked innocent people who did nothing to her.

Honestly, Zuko should have done this a lot sooner. She's tried to kill them four times already. She hasn't listened to them when they tell her not to do something and she's endangered all of them many times. She's being granted more than she deserves by the Gaang, and yet she goes on to do things they explicitly tell her not to do because it might hurt the forest or other people. She's proven that she is not concerned about who she hurts as long as she gets what she wants, and it took until she attacked people who weren't the Gaang for Zuko to suggest taking her down. The fact that he didn't give the okay for this the first time she tried to kill them is honestly a testament to his character.

Azula had this coming. No amount of the excuse of mental illness is enough to justify her actions. Even if she has a mental illness, it doesn't give her the right to attack others. And Zuko has all the right to defend himself and realize that working with Azula is impossible. He doesn't look happy to be doing this. He looks quite sad, in fact. I joked around a little in this post but seriously, anyone who says Zuko is the one abusing Azula is interpreting the text in very bad faith. I know people like it when Azula is a victim so that they can justify her hurting others, but Zuko and the Gaang had every right to retaliate throughout this comic whenever Azula attacked them or hurt someone else. These two siblings aren't even the last non-Gaang people Azula hurts in this comic.

Argument: "Zuko abusing Azula, Part 9."

Wherein Azula attacks her mother who doesn't remember her and her defenseless family with the intent to kill.

Now I'm not heartless. I feel for Azula here, I really do. That panel of her with tears in her eyes truly makes me feel sad. She definitely didn't deserve what happened to her throughout her life at Ozai's hands. She didn't deserve to feel unloved and feel like her mother thought she was a monster. She didn't deserve to be abused by Ozai. Azula deserves to heal, she deserves to be loved, she deserves to be treated well and she deserves better.

None of this gives her the right to hurt other people. Innocent people. She may feel her mother has wronged her, but it's not true. And she doesn't get to attack her mother, who doesn't even remember her, out of hatred and anger. She doesn't get to kill this innocent woman and attack her family. And Zuko is not in the wrong for stopping her. Zuko is not the wrong for protecting his mother and her family. Zuko is not abusive for defending other people and himself from Azula. Because even if Azula is hurt, she is taking it out on other people who have done nothing to deserve it.

Zuko redirecting her lightning back at her doesn't kill her, and I'm sure Zuko knows that it wouldn't. He doesn't want her dead. He doesn't want to hurt her. He wouldn't have thrown her over the cliff for that very reason. Despite everything, Zuko loves Azula. He cares about her. He wants to have a good relationship with her. He's very affected by the knowledge that their relationship is so bad. He truly wants to help her. But it is Azula who is resistant to that help. It is Azula who thinks her brother is weak and deserves to be hurt. It is Azula who despite wanting love, chooses to push people away and hurt them over and over again.

He's saddened at her running away, he chases her and pleads with her to let him help. But it is Azula who refuses him, who rebuffs him and attacks him at every turn. It is Azula who is always the aggressor, it is Azula who is at fault in their relationship, all because she believes that everyone is to blame for her mistakes but herself. And the only way she can heal is if she realizes who the blame truly lies with, Ozai, and rejects everything he's taught her, that love is weakness and to rule with fear. She needs help, but Zuko is not obligated to provide it to her. And yet he does, out of the kindness and compassion in his heart, and the love he has for his sister.

Argument: "He abused her in the show, then! Since this post only talks about the comics!"

That's because it should be obvious to anyone watching that Zuko didn't abuse Azula. If anyone thinks Zuko abused Azula, I invite them to watch a show called Avatar: The Last Airbender. It's really quite good.

So I feel like I've covered most arguments I've seen. But I do want to talk some more about why exactly I wrote all this, why I wasted two hours of my life on this.

Anyone who goes through the ATLA tag on my blog will probably reach the correct conclusion that Zuko is my favorite character, and that he and his arc mean a lot to me. And so, it's honestly not great to see people undermine all of the suffering Zuko has gone through in his life, all to justify Azula's abusive behaviors. It's not wrong to like Azula and love her character. She's a complex character that many find relatable, and that's not wrong. But to accuse another character, her actual victim in the series and one whom many can relate to as well, of being her abuser and denying her abuse of him... it's not a great look. It reeks of victim blaming and abuse apologism. And it's not true. Azula is an example of how victims of abuse can become abusers themselves. This is what she represents in the show. And it is not wrong for people to call out Azula and not Zuko, because Zuko got called out in universe, called himself out and he changed. Zuko redeemed himself and became a good person.

Azula has not done that. She hasn't changed, she hasn't acknowledged that she is wrong, and therefore people are allowed to criticize her and dislike her, and they are allowed to call out her abuse and her other actions. People call out Zuko for his bad actions as well, but the fact of the matter is that he changed, and people don't feel the need to call him out anymore because he's done it himself. Zuko doesn't need the same criticism Azula does because he grew and she didn't, that's it. So all the talking points about how people don't call out Zuko as much as Azula or that they don't criticize his bad actions are moot because of his very widely acknowledged and celebrated redemption arc. Because he realized his mistakes and worked hard to fix them. So, there is really no point in criticizing him anymore the way there is for Azula, since she hasn't changed. And it is not "hate" for people to understand that despite Azula's abuse at Ozai's hands, she dealt the same thing to her brother for years. And it is not wrong for people to criticize her for it.

All this talk about how Azula is always being hurt and betrayed by everyone, and all this talk about how Zuko is weak unlike Azula is the exact same reasoning Azula uses that enables her to abuse others within the story, the reasoning that Ozai instilled in her. It is quite literally the parroting of Ozai's beliefs, that Zuko is weak and soft, and that Azula is strong and powerful and yet she's a victim of everybody. She believes that others deserve to be hurt because they are too weak or because they are responsible for her suffering, and not her or Ozai. In the end, it wasn't Zuko who drove away her friends Mai and Ty Lee, and Mai and Ty Lee did not "betray" her. It was Azula's cruel treatment of them because she controlled them through fear that drove them away from her, and when push came to shove they stood up for the people the loved and for themselves. It wasn't Zuko who drove away their mother, it was Ozai. It wasn't Iroh who hated Azula and wanted her dead, it was Azula who hated Iroh and wanted him dead, and these are all things she learnt from Ozai. She can only ever grow if she realizes her mistakes and accepts the blame for her own actions, and if she stops blaming her victims for her suffering and starts blaming her abuser.

Blaming Zuko for defending himself from her and calling that abuse is victim blaming. Whether you like it or not, Azula did abuse Zuko. She had power over him, she targeted his insecurities constantly, she lied to him multiple times and made him doubt his own perceptions, she manipulated and gaslit him and made him feel unsafe in his home. She supported Ozai's abuse of Zuko and participated in it and took pleasure in it. Zuko never did anything of the sort to her. He reacted to her abuse in a way he never did with Ozai until the end, but that does not mean he wasn't affected by it or that it didn't happen, because it did, and even though he fought back with her, he was often defeated and Azula always managed to manipulate and terrify him. For fuck's sake, he literally had a chant, "Azula always lies," so that he could comfort himself after she terrorized him, something that he's been saying to himself for years according to Zuko Alone. People will point to Zuko challenging Azula as him abusing her back, but what defines abuse is the power dynamics. There is no such thing as mutual abuse. Abuse is all about one party having power over the other, and in Azula and Zuko's relationship, she had all the power over him because she was the favored child. Of course, this was also damaging for her, very much so, but it means that she had power over him, and he didn't.

Azula is a tragic character and her life is a sad one. But that doesn't make her any less of a bad person, and it doesn't mean she is not a toxic individual. Her actions have hurt other in many ways, and she does not feel remorse. She finds pleasure in the pain of others, especially her brother, at whom she smiled in glee when he was being maimed by their father. She took over a city and killed someone and did it with a smile on her face. She tried to kill her brother and laughed about it. She gleefully suggested genocide, and wanted to take part in it. And she hasn't changed, so people are allowed to dislike her and call her out for it. Personally, I believe that Azula has the capacity to change and to redeem herself. I don't think she's too far gone or is irredeemable. She is not as bad as Ozai, and it's not too late for her.

No one deserves a redemption. It has to be something you actively work for, something you do and it is something that you have to work for. Azula can change if she truly wants to. She has people who are willing to help her if she so chooses, like Zuko for better or worse for him. But that means admitting to her mistakes, acknowledging that she is wrong and has hurt people, and making the effort to change, which so far she has not done. And Zuko is not obligated to forgive her or help her in any way, and neither are the Gaang or Iroh.

You can like a villainous character. You can like a character who is a bad person. It's not wrong. What is wrong is to paint another character in a bad light, in a false light, to justify your love for another character. And especially in this case since Azula is Zuko's abuser, turning the tables and calling him her abuser for defending himself against her all because you want to excuse Azula's actions and want her to be a victim is really not great. Accusing Iroh and Ursa of being responsible for her downfall is not great. All this is directing blame away from the real abuser, Ozai. And it veers into victim blaming and abuse apologism, like I said.

Being a fan of Azula doesn't mean you can handwave away her less than savory traits or cherry-pick the ones you like. She is a victim, but she's also an abuser. And it is not "bashing" or misogyny for people to call her out. Calling out Zuko is also okay and allowed, but it is honestly less productive since he changed himself already. I understand that people don't like when their favorite characters are criticized or hated, but that doesn't mean characters who do bad things are exempt from being called out. And it doesn't give anyone the excuse to start misrepresenting other characters and hating on them to prop up their fave. Fans of characters who are villainous should understand that. And in this case, anyone who is a fan of Azula should understand that.

[jet-apologistmybadhomies]

coming out and saying 😔 AZULA WAS RIGHT ABOUT THIS

i understand! why iroh left but none of that truly makes it okay to waste everybodys time and LIFE like ppl DIED man and then he just backed out???

the only good thing out of this is ba sing se not falling

its why i am kinda "shy" to say this because it would suggest Something weird😭 but i swear i just think that iroh IS kinda weak for stopping a whole ass siege

dont get me wrong it makes irohs character so interesting and good but i am tried of ppl villianzing this Moment because "azula Shows no pity" ignoring that that is a CHILD who barely understands death in a way an adult does shes also right 😨

and i am really glad that the new Comic WILL make my point stronger since as for rn this more of a moral thing then anything

so yes iroh i get u. thats a horrible pain to have and i think thats the Moment where u understood that what your actions was doing this to other ppl

but i see no reason to hate characters who look down on him for leaving

(also pls read the tags)

[zuko-always-lies]

I just can't take Iroh seriously as a parental figure anymore. He did nothing but LOOK AWAY as Ozai burned Zuko. What kind of (good) parental figure does that? (This also implies very bad things about Iroh's parenting of Lu Ten.)

Yeah, there's no evidence he really did anything to protect Zuko from Ozai's abuse. The real kicker for me, though, is that he told Zuko that his father, his abuser, still loved him and that Zuko should keep trying to go back to him in order to "give Zuko hope." The many, many complex issues that surround Iroh's treatment of Zuko suggest that he wasn't a great father to Lu Ten. To be fair to Iroh, he grew up in a very toxic environment and probably had no good parental role-models.

[zukosdualdao]

something that gets to me a lot when people suggest iroh was wrong for not intervening during the agni kai is like... can we just think through what would have happened if he'd tried?

before i say this, i want to also say that intervening in abuse in real life is also a difficult, complicated, and often inaccessible process. that doesn't mean people shouldn't try or that i think it's right things are that way - but there are legal parameters to what one is allowed to do in a situation where they witness or suspect abuse, particularly for things that are not universally recognized as inappropriate and abusive behaviors.

with that in mind:

the agni kai is a culturally sanctioned, violent, ritualistic duel. that doesn't make what ozai does right, of course, but it does make intervening that much harder. ozai was pretty obviously breaking the acceptable terms of an agni kai (because we may not know all the rules, but even if it's not an official standard, attacking a surrendering opponent is pretty much universally recognized as bad form. evidence that this is also true in-universe is that azula deliberately uses this cultural value to her advantage by faking her surrender when fighting iroh, zuko, and the gaang so that they'll stop attacking and she can strike iroh in bitter work. edit: i misspoke, this was the chase. whoops!) therefore, one could argue that someone (such as iroh) would have been in the bounds of their rights to step in during the agni kai. and i agree! he absolutely would have been, at least morally. but legally, he is living under the imperalist rule of his brother, so... acting like it's so simple ignores the power imbalance not just between zuko and ozai, but iroh and ozai at this stage of their lives.

sure, iroh was once next in line to be firelord, but that hasn't been true in a few years by this point, and ozai is now the absolute monarch of their nation. iroh can't appeal to a higher authority or report the danger zuko is in because ozai is the highest authority in their nation, and he's the one posing a danger to zuko.

some might argue, then, that iroh should have physically intervened, but again, i think it's important we consider context. because again - ozai is the absolute authority of the fire nation at this point. defying him in this way would be treason, and ozai has plenty of guards and other military officers under his rule that could fight iroh for him, even if ozai didn't deign to do it himself.

iroh is a powerful bender and a good fighter, but he's one man and unlikely to be able to gain the upper hand in a fight where he's so clearly outnumbered by people loyal to the regime, which ozai currently leads. the most likely results of iroh's potential intervention, in my opinion, would have been his getting arrested or killed, and zuko still getting burned and banished, only now without iroh coming along to look out for him. if he had tried to physically intervene, it would have been on the frankly very slim chance that he could have somehow managed to fight off ozai/guards/military officers, remove zuko from the situation, and safely get himself and zuko out of the palace...

and, in the wise words of iroh himself, then what? they wouldn't have the (already somewhat meager, compared to zhao's or azula's) resources they have in book one, yet they absolutely could not stay on fire nation soil at that point. maybe they could have figured something out??? like, i don't know how. (the part of my brain that likes thinking up aus and then never writing them imagines maybe he contacted the white lotus and hid out until they came, but i digress.)

but again, there's nothing iroh could have done in this situation that wouldn't have been risking not only his own, but zuko's safety. zuko's safety was already compromised in the agni kai, of course, but iroh maintaining his own safety meant he would be available to try and protect zuko in the long-term.

none of this means that i don't think iroh felt ashamed and guilty about his inaction (he quite obviously did, based on the way he recounts the story and how he "looked away" in the storm.) and i also don't think it would be totally unsympathetic or wrong for zuko to have some amount of resentment for it, either (i think this is less based in canon, but i've seen it in fics - where they otherwise clearly have a largely positive relationship - and i think it can be done well and add to the dynamic in an interesting and meaningful way.) it's obviously awful that this was done to zuko. but the nature of abuse is that it can often leave people, both the victims and the witnesses, with very few, if any, good choices. and that's tragic, but the onus of that tragedy will always be on the abuser - in this case, on ozai.

[katarasmomsnecklace]

OK so controversial opinion

I haven't see the live action avatar (I'm a Katara stan yall I just can't do it) but going based of reviews and general consensus I can see I'm going against the grain here

I hate that the 41st is Zuko's crew

I've seen so many people say that it was the only change they liked but I cannot get on board with it

My biggest issue and I guess this is on me since it wasn't stated in the show (though heavily implied) was that I and many assumed that the 41st was child soldiers

I know they only state it's new recruits in the og but even as a kid I assumed that meant teens at the very oldest

I thought the 41st would be 14/15 year olds

And I assumed they all died

Leaving the fate of the 41st ambiguous was what made the fire nation terrifying to me as a kid, were they really willing to kill their own children? That's what made Zukos banishment hit so hard for me because if the Fire Lord could maim his own child, what was happening to the other kids in the fire nation?

Also it takes away a level of cruelty from Ozai, even if the 41st is alive is he really going to let Zuko know that, is going to let Zuko see the people he saved?

Plus I think it really sours Iroh telling the crew about Zuko's compassion and love of his nation and its people; instead it sounds more like "stop complaining that he's disrespectful he saved your lives"

I just can't see how it adds to the story and I think it actually makes Zuko's arc with his crew worse.

In my opinion, it messed with the untold story telling, we didn't need to know what happened to the 41st. Why not let the audience draw their own conclusions instead of dumbing it down

I just really really hate that change

[rennelelorren]

Something I like more about live action is how Iroh and Zuko are portrayed.

Not only Iroh tried to step up for his nephew where og Iroh haven't, but he also not seems to be a part of white lotus. Maybe he knows about it, but not a part of the group yet.

And it was always my issue with Iroh in atla, him being in white lotus.

Bc him being one of the white lotus members mean that Iroh was never actually on the same side as Zuko (Zuko was actually alone in his quest from the start if you look at it this way). He used his nephew to connect with white lotus (Zuko`s banishment allowed them to be anywhere but fn, so that's def where Iroh get a lot/all his contacts), as well as giving them information behind Zuko`s back. And he also kinda helped gaang without actually helping them couple of times (the "I lost my lotus tile" or him being "suddenly" asleep when Aang escaped and much more) and left a his child to manage everything on his own (always ends bad). Lied to Zuko for years. And Zuko oblivious to all of this manipulations bc he loves Iroh (he literally blind to his faults the same way as Iroh to his).

But in natla Iroh kinda don't give a shit about how this war going to end, he just cares for Zuko and clinging on him as if his life depends on it. And I like it this way more.

[akiizayoi4869]

I don't understand why people make excuses for Ursa. It is true that she got into a bad situation with a bad husband. That doesn't excuse her. She is still a bad mother to both Azula and Zuko. Her actions in the comic led Ozai to deliberately start treating Zuko worse. Ursa decided to hide behind the baby just to see if the pet tyrant was reading her mail. She just took advantage of the child for her own gain. Just like Ozai. Ursa's favouritism was bad for Zuko and distanced him from his sister. Ursa's indifference led Azula to Ozai

They make excuses for Ursa because she was in an abusive/arranged marriage, and they think that she had zero agency or control over anything. Which isn't entirely true. Because if that was the case? Her relationship with Zuko wouldn't have been what it was. She could still make choices in how she raised her children. And sadly a lot of her choices weren't great. Like you and plenty of other people have said, anon, her favoritism towards Zuko screwed up Azula. It also didn't do any favors for Zuko either. You aren't supposed to favor one kid over the other one, I don't care how "difficult" you think the other child is. And it's crazy because we see how favoritism is like a curse in this family. We are told by the narrative that playing favorites with your children is a bad thing (unless you favor Zuko apparently, then it's all fine and dandy🙄) and that you shouldn't do it. But you see what I just said in the parenthesis? That's where the problem is. We're shown/told that the favoritism is wrong.....unless the favoritism is towards Zuko. Both Ursa and Iroh, two adults that were considered "good" in comparison to Ozai, favored Zuko over Azula. And this is shown not as a bad thing, but as somethings that's fine and accepted because he is the "good" child, and that he acted in the perfect way an abuse victim is supposed to act in society's eyes, while Azula wasn't. Therefore she wasn't deserving of anyone's love like Zuko. Which is an extremely fucked up thing to do to a child who had no control in anything. I mean seriously, the fact that Ursa had Azula thinking this?

100% shows that she was a bad parent, plain and simple. Like I'm sorry but if the impression that I gave my child is that I feared them and thought that they were a monster, I'm not patting myself on the back and accepting the mother of the year award. Being in an abusive marriage does not absolve you from doing shitty things to other people, and I'm so tired of this fandom acting like it does. What I find to be so ironic about this though, is that these are the same people who, when we point out that Azula is a victim of abuse and that's why she is the way that she is in the show, they'll say "so what, that still doesn't excuse her. She could have changed but she chose not to." Say this to them about Zuko and Ursa though, and suddenly they start singing a different tune. Funny how that works.