#Maybe vader i liked his redemption | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

tobiasdrake · 5 months

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Do you think Anakin Skywalker's redemption balances out the evils of Darth Vader? I ask because sometimes I think about it, and it seems disproportionate to think that killing one old fuck who was harming a blood family member makes up for murdering people indiscriminately for decades. But maybe that's just cynical thinking on my end.

I have such complicated feelings about the redemption of Darth Vader. Because. Like. Star Wars and I do not get along well on a pretty fundamental level. Despite being built on a pretty simple basis of White-and-Black morality - White Hats and Black Hats with very little nuance or moral complexity between - I don't think Star Wars as it exists today really gets morality.

Here's the thing.

At the time it was written, within the scope of what Star Wars originally was, it made sense.

Star Wars was not designed to be this massive multimedia franchise with hundreds of entries and elaborate storylines starring every single character ever to appear for even five seconds. It was not made to be the story of a vast universe with no true main character.

Star Wars was made to be the story of Luke. It's a Chosen One space opera faerie tale about a young boy receiving a call to adventure, discovering great power within himself, and finding his place in the world.

Vader's redemption, as originally written, wasn't about Vader. It was Luke's catharsis; His reward for resisting the temptations offered by both Obi-Wan and the Emperor and instead choosing mercy. Luke ends his story by putting faith in his father's love for him. Vader's redemption is his reward for choosing to believe in better angels.

Strictly within the context of The Story of Luke Skywalker And Nothing Else, Vader's redemption works.

But Star Wars isn't the story of Luke Skywalker and nothing else anymore. Now it is about the vast universe of characters and ideas. This transition has resulted in a lot of friction because the original trilogy made choices that work for The Story of Luke but are not conducive to horizontal storytelling.

Like. The idea of the Jedi being gone, that Luke is the "last hope" for the Jedi because there's literally nobody left but him and Leia? Yeah. Writers have been going "NO HE DIDN'T SAY THAT YOU'RE WRONG" pretty much since the EU began. The original trilogy said no other Jedi but we want to have Jedi characters in stories we write so the original trilogy gets told to go fuck itself.

There are like eighty billion Jedi running around the Imperial Era now. Nobody actually died in the Purge 'cause not being able to write Jedi characters isn't fun.

And. Unfortunately. One of those problems is Vader. Because if he's not just Luke's cathartic reward for believing in his father's love? If we have to actually engage with this man as a "real" person within the context of a universe? Then. Uh. Yeah, he's Patient Zero for unsatisfying lightswitch redemptions.

The problem, the fundamental problem underpinning Vader's redemption, is that he doesn't change in any meaningful way.

There was a bit of that already present in the original redemption. In Empire Strikes Back, Vader wanted Luke to join him and then they'd kill the Emperor together. In Return of the Jedi, Vader joins Luke and then kills the Emperor for him. Right from the get-go, he already wanted to kill the Emperor with Luke; It's only the context surrounding the act that's different.

Within the Story of Luke, it nonetheless works because Luke receives his father's love and approval without compromising his, Luke's moral values to get it. His father kills the Emperor and dies for him, which is super meaningful from Luke's (and only Luke's) perspective.

But as the series grew, Vader's redemption became further devalued. Revenge of the Sith told us that this is a man whose road to wickedness came about when he threw away everything he loved, when he murdered the people in his court, out of a violent and desperate love for his family. For his family, he will betray his own side and slaughter those he was meant to be loyal to. That is the action that brought him to where he is today.

That. Uh. That makes it feel a lot less impactful when he suddenly betrays his own side and slaughters the Emperor for Luke. Like. I don't know how Palpatine didn't see that coming when it's just Anakin doing the thing that made him Vader in the first place.

There is a point to be made that Anakin's love for his family up to that point was possessive and violent. In jealousy and rage, he choked Padme to death. He cut off Luke's hand. This is not a man who loves his family well. But Return of the Jedi doesn't undercut that in any meaningful way. He can be violently possessive of his family and stab anyone who looks at them funny; These two things don't contradict each other.

This man butchered children and lightsaber dueled Obi-Wan because he was mad about his family. Did Palpatine really think he wasn't going to huck him down a reactor shaft for literally the exact same reason, no difference whatsoever?

But that's only the tip of the iceberg, because the developing Star Wars universe makes another significant point about Vader dying for Luke: In the grand scheme of things. Like. Who gives a shit whether or not he loves his son? Insufficiently loving his family is the least of Vader's transgressions.

As early as Attack of the Clones, we see that Anakin Skywalker is a violent fascistic monster with a propensity for genocide. The Clone Wars cartoon does a phenomenal job of portraying Anakin's gradual seduction into fascistic systems of belief.

Anakin loves the idea of keeping peace via brutal military dictatorship. He has "fun" political chats with Tarkin about the merits of a galactic police state. He's emotionally abusive and violently possessive of his secret wife. He slaughters children who've done nothing to him without hesitation, sometimes because he's pissed off at other members of their family and sometimes 'cause that's just the price of keeping peace yo.

Hell, even his desire to kill Palpatine and make his family into the official galactic monarchs gets reframed into something he's wanted since Revenge of the Sith. That wasn't even a reaction to meeting Luke; he's legit wanted to supplant Palpatine with a Skywalker Dynasty forever. And we're supposed to take it as a major act of repentance when he ultimately stabs Palpatine for Luke? This man has been trying to stab Palpatine for Luke for twenty years.

All of this context makes Vader's redemption difficult to swallow in the grand scheme of things. He lived as an unrepentant brutal fascist monster guilty of multiple acts of genocide, chomping at the bit to betray his master for the sake of his family. He died as an unrepentant brutal fascist monster guilty of multiple acts of genocide who betrayed his master for the sake of his family. And the best thing that can be said of him is that he accepted Luke's lifestyle choices in the end.

A sweet moment for Luke, yet far from an inspiring transformation of a vile man into a hero - but which nonetheless inspired a thousand unsatisfying, terrible copycats.

#star wars #darth vader #anakin skywalker

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noddytheornithopod · 5 months

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Some more in-depth Tales of the Empire thoughts/questions

This is really nerdy and nitpicky of me to ask, but... what is Barriss' Inquisitor name? I can't help but wanna know. Then again, we don't know Marrok's name either, and also what the fuck up is with bird man (who until confirmed otherwise I'm treating as the the Sixth Brother being an edgelord dressing as a plague doctor, I will insist the only reason they aren't calling him Sixth Brother is because then the Lucasfilm Story Group would have to admit Tales of the Jedi overwrote published material in significant ways, and then they'd get more angry nerds than they already have to deal with, lol).

I do kind of wish we leaned a bit more into Barriss' established relationships a bit, Luminara Unduli is indirectly mentioned in the last short, and Barriss mentions having a "old friend" who would know more about the Imperials hunting after kids which I HAVE to imagine is Ahsoka... but we don't really explore these. Like, if she DID reconnect with Ahsoka, I kind of wish we got to see that? I do understand why Luminara didn't appear, with Barriss' characterisation I don't think she could've gone through with killing her if they had a test, but still. I don't know if we needed to see her react to her death, but part of me is curious about that anyway. I will say she seemed to sense something when Vader entered the room, though. Did she sense a familiar presence there? Also surprised they didn't even throw in a small nod to how the Grand Inquisitor became what he was because he heard Barriss' speech and that suddenly validated everything he thought already (if you follow the comics anyway). Not even a simple "pleased to see you as a candidate after your rousing speech" line (which was given to... see below). I wouldn't have called this necessary for the story itself, but I always found it annoying that we have to go off on so much of GI's backstory based on paratext instead of actual stories. Also, still don't know his original name even after a decade, RIP.

On a similar note, I'm not really sure how I feel about Lyn Rakish? Specifically, how her relationship was the central one to Barriss' here. I'm not opposed to Barriss knowing more people, it even helps make these characters' lives feel bigger, but I do kind of feel like there's stuff here that would be nice to know. Like, even when Lyn enters her cell, Barriss recognises her, and they way they interact throughout the shorts implies some kind of connection. Especially since...

...her stabbing Barriss was what made her snap out of being an Inquisitor. Okay, I'm not really sure how to feel about this. I love where Barriss ends up, but also... I'm not really sure how I feel about dying? If she's even dead? The scene was clearly mirroring the second short, where Barriss wanted to save that other Jedi, and nothing suggested that she never got to save her (I mean, she's known as "the healer" next short for crying out loud, also hey nice Legends callback), so even if Barriss looks far more dead, there is that part of me still in denial, lol. But thing is, it's kinda like they went "this is actually about Lyn, not Barriss". Sure, Barriss reclaimed her old self and her development was arguably "complete" in that sense, but that doesn't always have to mean death? Meanwhile, we only really get to know Lyn through these shorts, and while I'm very pro-villain redemption, I'm not sure if doing this through three shorts was enough to do it justice. So I'm kinda feeling like being asked to feel for a character finally returning to the light because she maybe killed her sorta protege while barely knowing anything about their actual relationship on a personal level is kinda eh.

That's something I felt in general. Maybe I'm just greedy, but I really wanted MORE of Barriss' story. Like, at least make it clear why Lyn is someone important in her life besides giving her a literal get out of jail card.

With Fortress Inquisitorius, I do think it's interesting they show it being built, but also not really alluding to how the headquarters is apparently on Coruscant, especially with Vader's throne and all. I don't think there's any real contradictions though, the Inquisitorius probably had several bases (I wonder if Stygeon Prime in Rebels was another?), and the main one just became Fortress Inquisitorius when Vader was given reign over the Mustafar System and therefore Nur, where FI is located.

Barriss' line about how she felt like she was lied to and deceived is actually pretty clever, because its placement is almost like an admission she was wrong. She's still clinging to the Inquisitorius by justifying it as "the Jedi failed because of their hubris, they deserved it, we're here to bring peace and order" but her heart was clearly never in it. Despite feeling like the Jedi betrayed their principles, she actually still followed them. In a way, I think it even kind of recontextualises the Temple Bombing, because it feels more like Barriss being panicked and desperate, basically having a breakdown. She did go to the Dark Side, but with the kind of person she is, those emotions aren't natural to her. We see she can certainly still go there, that other former Jedi basically saying "screw you, all for me" certainly evoked betrayal which would evoke those dark emotions, and of course she goes along with the Inquisitorius basically to survive, aka out of fear, and as mentioned justifying it to herself by saying this is justice for how the Jedi "fell" even if she's clearly hypocritical in that regard. We then see in the final short she's reconciled her past with the Jedi, talking fondly of her time as one, and regretting her turning to the Dark Side.

Huh, just noticed the Jedi is referred to with they/them pronouns.

Now for the other stuff

I don't have as much to say about Morgan, but I will say that Bo-Katan receiving the distress call kinda cleared up a contrivance in The Mandalorian for me. I was like "okay sure, even IF Bo-Katan still was in contact with Ahsoka, how would she know exactly where she is at this moment? what if she went off somewhere else?" But then this episode makes it clear Bo received the call, and thus would've figured out what was going on, and then actually tell Ahsoka to go to Corvus.

I hope the Eli Vanto fans are okay, especially since Pellaeon was shown as Thrawn's number 2 in the short. What I will say is - this was just a glimpse of one mission, this isn't retconning Eli out of existence. Thrawn and Eli wouldn't have been together on every single mission.

Morgan was the original person to pitch the TIE Defender? Huh, that is certainly a very random piece of lore. Also, surprised there's still Venator Star Destroyers instead of all Imperial Is at this point.

When Thrawn asks her the real reason she wants the Empire's favour and admits it's revenge, he accepts. He also shows interest in the Nightsisters even here. I do wonder if what made him receptive was he could kind of empathise on some level, if the threat of the Grysk made him open to Morgan's desire to avenge her sisters.

Mountain Clan appears in visual media, cool. Now people know there's even more witches on Dathomir. With the new lore about the Nightsisters, I do wonder if the other clans also have extragalactic origins in Peridea, or if they developed independently and it's specifically the Nightsister sect that was from there. Either way, it seems like the Nightsisters were the biggest and most powerful, apparently Talzin even united many witch clans. Also, I wonder if Morgan and her mother were originally from another clan but moved to the Nightsisters? Because obviously they look pretty different from the standard Nightsisters. Also was interesting to see the architecture resemble what we see in Jedi: Fallen Order, so that was cool.

Also thought it was a cool touch that the Separatists weren't done killing everyone on Dathomir. We only see the initial battle in one location in Massacre from The Clone Wars, but it does help make the genocide feel bigger, even showing that even other non-Nightsister clans weren't entirely safe. IDK if this makes the droid gunships appear earlier than implied to be their creation in TCW Season 5 (then again, chronologically the Dathomir and Onderon arcs are back to back), but also Grievous didn't have a cape in massacre, which is the REAL crime of this short. Hashtag remove his cape!!!!!!!!!!

#star wars #tales of the empire #sw spoilers #tote spoilers #barriss offee #lyn rakish #fourth sister #morgan elsbeth #thrawn #mitthrawnuruodo #nightsisters #dathomir #peridea #ahsoka tano #luminara unduli #grand inquisitor #inquisitorius

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reachexceedinggrasp · 10 months

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Have you seen the recent Adam driver interview re: redeemed Ben solo never being part of the original plans? Apparently JJs idea as pitched to Adam was 'reverse Vader' who begins the trilogy all uncertain and vulnerable and becomes super evil by the third film 😂 considering the mess that was duel of the fates, I'm not surprised. Adam said he was still 'focused' on JJs original arc even though it changed over shooting. Which is baffling to me, because even in TFA you can't seriously believe this character could go stone cold uber sinister. It's terrible how so many good things in the sequel trilogy are there in spite of tptb, not because of them!

I haven't and honestly at this point I don't even want to hear anything else about what a complete fucking shitshow of stupidity and sociopathy this whole production was.

The idea that TFA isn't setting up a redemption is so absurd to me that I'm not even going to entertain it. I don't believe that even JJ is that incompetent, and his commentary plus TROS indicates that he did absolutely understand that Ben must be reclaimed despite his total disregard for the themes and message of SW. So whatever Adam was talking about, I don't know, and I'm not going to listen to this interview to try to figure it out because I'm tired. Maybe he's referring to the earliest ideas where Kylo Ren wasn't the same person as Han and Leia's child?

But in that case I just cannot imagine why they wanted to cast him in that role.

Leaving aside that the entire concept of a 'reverse Vader' is the stupidest shit I've ever heard, because that was a) literally the prequel trilogy, b) antithetical to SW as anything other than a prelude to a subsequent redemption, and c) SO FUCKING BORING. I know this isn't the first time Adam has mentioned this, but it only sounds more stupid the more clear he makes it that they mean 'the opposite of the ending of RotJ'. Which is just 'the ending of every fucking American action movie fucking ever'. Like putting a 'spin' on Vader by having him NOT REDEEM HIMSELF is just called 'being like everyone else' and 'taking away literally the most compelling thing about Vader'.

I need these boring, unimaginative HACKS to fuck off. Like, the idea that JJ's pitch for TFA was 'worse, more boring, less visually creative, less meaingful, more shallow remake of ANH but also we will ruin the heart and soul of the story and make it like all the libertarian slop it literally existed in order to stand against'.

LIKE JAIL FOR THIS MAN. JAIL!

I saw someone say that it's also come out that the reylo connection was Kasdan's idea, which I feel vindicated by bc I've been saying I bet it was forever. But again, JJ was on board for it and knew what he was doing with the imagery in TFA. He is not so incompetent that he didn't understand he was creating romantic subtext. And text.

But like, I'm just so done with these fucking people. That ANYONE at that company much less apparently EVERYONE?? thought it was remotely acceptable to use SW to tell the story of any character whatsoever who was humanised and sympathetic and relatable to children falling into darkness and becoming ''''''irredeemable'''''' MUCH LESS the LAST SKYWALKER, the HOPE AND HAPPY ENDING OF ROTJ, HAN AND LEIA'S LOVE, PADMÉ'S LOVE, the atonement and reconciliation of Darth Vader is just FUCKING BANANAPANTS to me.

George Lucas should fight these people in an alley.

#sw #a tros ity #salt #the fact that they hired Rian by accident and he was the only person on the Disney lot who understood what SW was #the only person with basic reading comprehension #just put me out of my misery

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veny-many · 5 months

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I rambled about Sith Plo AU before... and I suddenly thought, how about Little 'soka?(evil grin)

Long time ago, Sith Plo Koon was wandering the world. And when he learned about the Force sensitive child from Shili, and she was abducted by human traffickers.

Maybe from sudden curiosity, or some kind of Force's will, Plo searched the place and killed every traffickers. Of course Jedis did found the place too, but Plo ended their lives with no hesitation. And then, there were only two of them, Sith and the child.

Ahsoka was so confused and scared, by sudden bloodbath and violence. She was so fragile, needing someone who to protect, someone who can teach her about Force.

In some kind of fate, Plo unconsciously gave her a hand, and when Ahsoka held his fingers with little curiosity and trust, something huge part of his life changed in that moment.

He was still Sith, of course. And he taught her in Sith way, too. But after that day, he started to collect children when he had chance. In twisted way of course.

Ahsoka possessed the dark side of Force with teaching of her Master. She was dangerous and merciless to enemy, but then she was also friendly and cheerful when she was with her 'family'. Ahsoka always followed Plo with trust like he was father of her, and Plo adored her, calling her his little 'soka, while both walking together along the burned down village and dead bodies.

Sidious really didn't liked that bond. It was dangerous that Plo have so much attachments. Yes, attachment can be the easy way toward dark side, but also it could be the key for the redemption to light side. And Plo seemed to care too much about his peoples.

Sidious: So I have gathered new Sith. This is Darth Vader. And he will teach Tano, not you will!

Plo: !

Sidous: (Great plan, so I can trigger Masters hatred towards each others, and maybe if the fight happens, I finally can get rid of that Kel-Dor...)

Plo: Oh, He's another hurting child!

Sidious: WHAT

And that way the new chaos started and Sidious had another headaches.

Jedis: ...seriously, even Force won't telling us what we should think about this.

Jedis: *crunches popcorn*

#star wars #the clone wars #plo koon #ahsoka tano #darth sidious #what have i done #my au

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jadewing-realms · 1 year

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disclaimer: written pre-release

i've had this sitting in my drafts for a bit since i started playing BG3, I kept seeing a particular kind of post regarding Astarion and it really started to frustrate me soooooo. here's a vaguely coherent rant nobody asked for pff

As I got into the game, following Astarion's romance subplot, doing research on the game and characters thus far, I encountered the schism between those who love Astarion and by extension, characters like him, and those that consider said characters as little more than toxic creatures, narcissists best dealt with swiftly and harshly. The latter tends, in the posts I've found at least, to view the former as poor unfortunate souls with the dreaded "i can fix him" mentality.

Now, I'm not here to say either is entirely wrong. I think to take a side here is to do the exploration a disservice and to forget the depth of nuance in art and media interpretation.

And that's just it. Because at the end of the day, interpretation is one of the key elements involved in this discourse. In the case of Astarion, especially with the game having been in early access for so long and no complete, guaranteed details of his past or arc made public yet, with so much up in the air as the full release drops, there are worlds of interpretations that can be made regarding our infamous vampire rogue.

Is one of those interpretations that he's both emotional and literal vampire who's every action is a trap for the protagonist in order to use them, and that he's irredeemable? Yes. Is another that he's simply trying to survive in a situation he's never been in after spending two centuries living like an animal? Also yes.

The error here, I think, is to treat one interpretation like it's more "right" than another. Which is what I've seen a lot of online threads do... Insisting one perspective is superior to the other. Which is bad faith even on a good day when either perspective is based in concrete, unchangeable fact. Even moreso in this case, until there's complete canon material to bank on, and even then that will have so much variety to it since most of it will depend on the actions of the player. It's a choice-based game. There is so much space for varied experiences, and none of them will be "right" or "wrong."

I feel like in modern media discussion, when considering whether a character is actively harmful or just flawed, it can be easy to forget that some of our most popular stories are ones in which someone is deemed beyond hope or redemption, a danger to all they encountered, only for their arc to raise them from their Pit of Dickishness and set them on pedestals as some of the most memorable, inspiring characters we know.

The timeless story of the Christmas Carol gives us an absolutely despicable old geezer who literally spells out the horror he'd inflict upon the poor if he could, simply for the sin of poverty. But in an effort to fixate only on how problematic he (very much intentionally) is, we might lose sight of how the whole point of the story is to watch him be forced to confront his ways, unpack all his crap, and become better for it in the end.

Characters like Prince Zuko, Edmund Pevensie, Greedling, Steve Harrington, Boromir, James Ford, friggin Darth Vader, we wouldn't have any of them if we only read them at surface level as toxic assholes and then left it at that. But through learning the nuances of these characters and watching them confront their actions and consequences and learn from them, they not only grow and change into better people, but we love them because they hold pieces of ourselves in them, despite their sharp edges. We can understand why they are the way they are, and maybe, if we're honest with ourselves, we can acknowledge that we might have done similarly awful things under their circumstances. It makes them relatable, admirable, and cautionary all at once. It makes them human.

None of that is to say that there are never characters built purely and solely to fear and loath, not at all. True scumbags can and do exist, both in fiction and reality. To try to enforce the idea of finding empathy for a true monster is often a tactic used in reality to gaslight people into excusing said monsters' behavior.

Which leads into the "i can fix him" argument. When applied to situations dealing with real dangerous and horrid people who can't or won't change? Absolutely Not Great (though that's not to say it can't be included in a story, there are valuable themes in that on its own). Condoning this dynamic as something good is what leads to abusive relationships and innocent people staying in unhealthy situations for far too long. I'm among those who can attest to that personally.

That said, when it comes to Astarion, no one can rightly say going through his romance arc or not is condoning anything. Because it once more comes down almost entirely to perspective and interpretation, because he's a video game character comprised of pixels and a well-written script and there are limitless ways he can be interpreted and interacted with.

Like, personally, yes, there are some dynamics I'd feel uncomfy pairing him with, even with the empathy I feel for his character. Platonic or romantic, doesn't matter. Does that mean I'm going to apply my interpretation and personal boundaries to the next person playing the Astarion romance? No. That would be assuming I've somehow discovered the "correct" way to interpret the game, which I have not and can never do because RPGs like Baldur's Gate 3 are such personalized experiences. People are 100% free to play a fictional game however the hell they so please, because stories are not inherently 1-to-1 reflections of reality.

Especially when it comes to the narcissism accusation, it sparks an extra layer of discomfort for me when it seems like characters who act selfishly or spin lies get called "narcissistic" when that's kinda severely over-generalizing what narcissism actually is??

Narcissism is inherently selfish, but not all selfishness is narcissism. Gaslighting is built on lies, but not all lies are gaslighting. This separation was literally bugging me so much, I talked with my therapist about it last week. And she agreed.

Some folks seem to forget is actual NPD isn't just about selfishness and manipulating. It's fragile ego and delusions of grandeur and the mind games, dysregulating highs and humiliating lows that they will weave in a web around you so that you, as a victim, can never get your mental and emotional footing. Usually for the purposes of then swooping in to offer themselves as your only source of stability. The whole "rely on me because your judgment is clearly faulty and you need to be protected from yourself" shtick.

You know. Kinda like Cazador.

The way I see Astarion, by contrast, is that he has an honesty to him that lacks such delusions. As much as he desperately tries to maintain this veneer of poise and sass and devil-may-care out of self-preservation, it's paper thin and crumples under the barest pressure. Like, the equivalent of a thematic sneeze and down he goes. Then you see him as he is. Which is just... frightened. Sad. Kinda pathetic, really. And absolutely, positively lost. All things he knows, but he legit believes he will be killed if he lets any of it show.

Comparing that to, say, Wyll, who's blissfully ignorant bluster reminds me painfully of self-aggrandizing family members that I love but can't interact with honestly because of the forest of self-delusion around them... well, it's not much of a contest.

If somebody interprets Astarion as a slimy, manipulating power-monger and gets rid of him the first chance they have, that's their story to tell and power to them for it. But the same must be said for the opposite. I don't appreciate the thought that there's a whole sect of the BG3 fandom that probably genuinely considers me "less than" or "unhealthy" or "problematic" in some way for being among those who like this character or others like him and their potential thematically and narratively. But if my interpretation is that he’s a frightened man who just wants to feel safe and free, that is also its own story and it's mine to tell if I wish. And both can be good or even powerful stories!

Is all of this based on my own personal nuances, biases, and priorities? Absolutely. And that's kinda the whole point... There's not a wrong answer with this, really. I experience these games and these characters through a lens that is mine and mine only, and I give meaning to the worlds I enter based on what makes the story feel most interesting and satisfying for me. And at the end of the day, what else is art for but to help us explore ourselves and learn a little bit more about what it means to be human. In all its glory and ugliness.

And that's a wholly personal journey nobody deserves to have micromanaged or belittled. I'm certainly not gonna go around looking down on anyone for having a different reading than mine. You do you, boo. But let me do me too.

#bg3 #baldur's gate 3 #astarion #my musings #in this essay i will #half of this feels incomprehensible because i added tidbits over the span of a week #but maybe someone somewhere will get something out of it #it was cathartic for me anyway #narcissism #character analysis #media literacy #art interpretation #thanks for coming to my ted talk

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dalekofchaos · 7 months

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If Hans returns as a villain in Frozen 3

I am all for Hans getting redemption, but if he stays evil, here is how I would do it. Also, yes I am going ALL IN on Fire!Hans

If Hans is to be the villain of the story, then I would have him cement his place at the top of the Southern Isles. He goes from prisoner and the disgraced/reject prince to the King. What he does is simply kill his father and the brothers who would dare stand in his way.

Throughout his time imprisoned, Hans learns he has Fire Powers. He realizes why his family treated him like a reject all his life and why he was so unloved. Ordering him to obey, that he was a weakling and that he was the unwanted cub to a kingdom of lions. He was just like Elsa and he will take the Southern Isles by force.

So at some big Southern Isles ball or some fancy Royal get together. Hans pulls a Rains Of Castamere.

Hans burns them and promises if you stand with him, they will all reign with the fire. Hans promises them Arendelle is ripe for the taking. Elsa is gone and no one can stop them and even if Elsa returns, she will burn.

I came up for a general idea of what Hans villain song could be like.

Hans villain song would be "Let them burn" A dark companion piece to Let It Go. Detailing his past as the abused and neglected youngest brother and his desire for revenge against his family and against Elsa and Anna. "Now little brother is at the top. Now I am in control" "They will bow or they will burn"

"Now I see fire

Inside the mountain

I see fire

Burning the trees

And I see fire

Hollowing souls

I see fire

Blood in the breeze"

Maybe end it with Hans finding out Anna is getting married. "Oh how nice, my ex is getting married. Time to invite myself to the wedding"

And I would actually let Hans win. What made Empire Strikes Back compelling is Vader won.

Maybe Hans extends his hand to Elsa. He offers to save everyone from the fire, if only Elsa would let him in, Elsa objects and they fight, but Hans wins.

Where Frozen 4 will be Elsa's rebirth and triumphant return and Hans redemption(ha fooled you, Hansdemption and Helsa in the end)

Frozen 4 could have redemption happen. Elsa seeing there is more than the monster Hans perceives himself to being. Frozen 2 has shown the power of memories in the water. She sees the memories of a cruel family and sees her parents and grandfather and what she could've been if Anna did not save her. In a sense Elsa extinguishes his burning heart and shows him the love he's been denied all his life. Elsa and Hans heals the world together as Queen and King of Arendelle and the Southern Isles.

#Disney #Frozen #Frozen 3 #Helsa #Hans #Prince Hans #Fire!Hans #Fire Hans #Fire Powers Han #The Southern Isles

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piglet26 · 10 months

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Star Wars Rewatch: TROS

Oh, God.

Palpatine come back and ruining Anakin Skywalker's redemption. Why? How? Cloning, okay, so this Palpatine isn't the real Palpatine?!

We get to see Supreme Leader Kylo Ren for about 4 minutes before he's immediately benched by Palpatine as co-pilot. Why? I get they didn't want Kylo Ren as the big bad, but this is just lazy writing.

Green goblin, I remember you don't last long.

R2D2, they never wash him or nothing?

Maybe the First Order should win. They take hits and keep on knocking. They take losses and recovered, quickly and well. They always seem to have intelligence from somewhere. In short, they are competent.

Poe and Finn, have a great dynamic.

Rey is finally training for everyone who had a boner for two movies about her having a rocky fight montage.

They moment where Ren is praying over Darth Vader's mask and his mind bridges with Rey is a great reminder that these two are connected.

This film did something most franchise should never, it responded to criticism in real time.

Poe, you fucked up Han's ship. Stop attacking like she doesn't have a reason to be annoyed. Also, Rey is currently the sole Jedi in the galaxy, she should be training, not running off on every errand you have to do.

Colin Travano (whatever his name is) I wouldn't have wanted his script. Like at all. Poe and Rey do have chemistry though and you can tell they enjoy needling one another. It's just not endgame.

That Finnrey hug was awkward. It's a church hug with their butts sticking out. I'm Reylo to the core, but I have place for FinnRey in my heart. They're soulmates in a different way than Reylo is. Also, Daisy Ridley and John B are adorable and you can tell they enjoy working together.

In a flawed film, Rose Tico being sidelined was a wise decision.

Rey, Poe, Finn, Chewie and 3PO are cute. JJ Adams did seem to love friendships developing and for the third film we needed to see all these characters together on an adventure.

Kylo Ren is forging this dumb ass mask again. Look it worked initially, character wise and so forth, but at this point?! He smashed it and moved past the need for it. The audience liked that he smashed it. We have to see his face for emotional scenes. Why is it back? Oh I know! Because JJ Adams good juvenile friend was sad his mask wasn't in the film anymore. General Hux and Kylo are magically little bottle of goodness. We got so little.

We leave one planet for another planet but I keep forgetting what planet we're on. Title cards too much to ask?

Ren is actually pursuing Rey or The Scavenger because yes he wants her for himself. but he also wants to protect her from Palpatine. Their first force bond......... yeah. I've read the novelization so I understand it's been a minute since they've seen one another, but if I just watched the movie would I have known that? No. There is much they saying yet it's stiff and doesn't make much sense without context.

General Pryde. Why did we need him when we have General Hux?

I think Billie D Williams filmed all his scenes sitting down. He looks happy to be there but tired as hell.

Race through the desert of Pasaana. I like it. This crew does work and it feels like a fun adventure. There are cute, whitty moments between all of them and it works.

She heals a snake - Two halves of the dyad should only have been able to heal one another, but here we are.

The Trio and Co find the evil sith ship or whatever. The Knights of Ren gotta walk while Ren is flying. Ren tries to run down Rey, again this make sense in the novelization and not at all in real life. After Rey injures his planes, he crashes and the majestic prince emerges out of the flames. Seriously?! Why the hell are you covering this guy up?!

In a rip off of The Last Jedi we get a tug-o-war scene between the ship Chewie is on. It's not as great, but it's a good scene and we see how Rey's powers have grown. We know it's a waste of time though. They're evenly matched. It's a nice surprise when the lighting shoots out. Okay, I don't mind her being a Palpatine. I mind the retconning. I mind Palpatine magically coming back.

Rey confesses to Finn about her dream of her and Kylo Ren on the Sith Throne. Where? We would have liked to have seen this.

This is a nice FinnRey scene. Despite her display of "dark power", her killing Chewie presumably, Finn doesn't look at her any different. She's still Rey to him. He's patient and present and she describes her challenges. We still don't acknowledge Finn is force sensitive. Why isn't he training with Rey?

We are blazing through this movie. That's part of the problem we're just pushing plot points at this point. The movie needs to be more selective about slowing down and concentrating on character development. Something painfully lacking in this film. Even the Reylo scenes are about pushing the plot forward rather than pushing the characters forward.

3PO actually has a storyline this movie. Good for him. Look secondary characters in a trilogy, you get your moments and it ain't gonna be every film.

Zorri and Babu are nice additions. I like Zorri and the fact that Ren kicking her ass actually made her like her. Women supporting women. Were Zorri and Poe a thing. What's a spice runner? A space drug dealer?

Rey's social skills lack a bit. but she's great with Droids.

Wait, Chewie and Ren were both on Ren's Destroyer and they didn't even have a scene together?! Chewie's like an uncle to Ren.

Ren, show up in your boss ass destroyer to get your girl.

Standout lines -

Poe: 3PO! Move your metal ass.

3PO: How dare you we just met.

Finn, Poe and Chewie cowboying through the destroyer. Nice scene, doomed for failure I'm afraid.

Second Reylo forceskype is exposition. First real Reylo scene is exposition. Hey, movies gotta get it done haha but Ren literally is like here's the plot of the movie and everything you've been confused on up until this point. I will say watching the progression of the force bond that their spaces are now physically bleeding into one another. Nice touch. It's also nice to see what they each see when looking at one another through the force bond.

General Hux is the spy. Could've gone farther with this. RIP Dawg

Another FinnRey scene where you begin to understand Rey is pissed off and darker than possibly Finn thought.

Palpatine and Ren scene. I'm so annoyed Palpatine is in this movie.

We meet a ragtime band on horses surprise their former stormtroopers. All of them. From the same company. Sure Jan.

Seeing the death star again, so odd and doesn't look a thing like the original. We see scavenger Rey again.

Reylo fights again because Rey is the denial queen and she's free to take out her aggression on Ren. He likes feral Rey. In another less PG film, they've fought and then boned, but Leia died. Also, Dark Rey.... I'm here for it. Mostly cause it looks cool.

The film makers did the best they could with Carrie's Fisher passing. I thought they handled it with class and dignity while incorporating it into the film.

After Leia's passing and Rey healing it. Ren in his ever presented conflict nature overlooks the water when his father appears. It's poignant and character driven scene. It's beautiful scene about the enduring love of a parent. A flawed parent but a loving one nonetheless. Ben had two of those and he seems to finally understand that now.

Poe has a good scene with Leia's body about being a leader. Something that, despite all the bravado, he finally admits he doesn't know how to do. This would've been a great scene with her alive. Part of the issue people have the sequel trilogy of the lack of respect paid for previous generations. As if they are flawed and bigoted. On screen and off screen. A scene where Finn, Poe or Rey paid respect for the accomplishments of previous generations. Their courage and their bravery. Billie D. feels like just a stand-in.

Palpatine army blows up yet another planet. yawn.

Finn is a general bestow as such by Poe. Good choice. Sanitation worker aside no one knows more about The First Order than someone who was a stormtrooper. Finn reveals Palpatine wanted Rey alive...... then why tell Ren to kill her? Because if Rey didn't go dark then Ren was the fall back or vice versa?

So far it's not a bad film, just a disappointing film. The stuff that made my blood boil is about to come.

Rey isolates herself on Acht-to, burns the ship and we see ghost Luke. Why? She saw herself on the dark throne and she's afraid of herself. This might have meant something. At one point. It just feels like a retcon at this point. She's a Palpatine but Leia and Luke didn't care? Then what the hell were you worried about Ben for? If blood and legacy means nothing.

I'm not one of those people that need everything in a movie to make sense. It's also a space fantasy film, but damn.

Rey leads the Resistance to Exegol, she just doesn't know it. That was handy. No, really the way the movie sliced that together worked very well. Poe and Finn make a great speech about the resistance. Not as rousing as I'd like.

Exegol being the basis for the Sith religion is actually really cool. Wish we could've learned more. Empress Palpatine sounds like a boss ass name.

I hate everything about the ending of this film.

Rey once again goes into the enemy territory without a plan. The resistance doesn't really have one either except gumption.

Ben Solo is back! He's great. He's a hero. He's got great hair. He's likeable. We haven't seen him for 20 minutes, he doesn't say a word except "Ow" We have a beautiful Reylo moment where we Rey and Ben see each other through the Force Bond and she looks at Ben with such relief, joy and love that he's there with her. Ben fight like hell to get to her. This is it! Bendemption. We've waited three films for this. Then they tossed him off a cliff.

While it's a great scene of Rey listening to the previous Jedi's and rising up. I'm so confused how the dyad coming together empowers the devil. Ben has been made completely irrelevant.

I mean, we got a Reylo Kiss! It was epic and then it was over. We were lucky to get that considering Disney started to shy away from Reylo due to all the "controversy" I just hate this so we'll move on.

The hug was nice!

Rey Skywalker?

And that's that

#reylo #ben solo #star wars #finnrey #rey skywalker #rey star wars #kylo ren #kylo x rey #ben solo deserved better #rey nobody

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chocochipjewel · 5 months

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Okay yall Bad Batch finale aires in just under 12 hours and I have some finale theories to talk about! Hopefully I'll be able to post at least some rough art after the finale where I talk about the show some more but for now final theories!

I think CX-2 is Cody, it's too late for it to be Tech and it would be delightfully tragic if Rex or someone (who I think is definitely showing up for the finale) kills CX-2 and unmasks him after the fact or something

I think Hemlock did retrieve Tech's body and I think he's one of the experimental CX units who have not been released yet. But I don't think it worked. I want his sacrifice to mean something, so I want him to stay dead (even if my heart wants otherwise 😭) maybe his body is found, maybe he's never seen again, but I don't think he's coming back

I'm pretty sure Rex and his group of renegade clones will make an appearance, and I hope Phee gets a final moment to be badass as well. Apart from that, I'm hoping for no more extra characters cluttering the episode cause we already have so many loose ends up tie up here

I wouldn't put it past Disney to end the clone rebellion storyline on a cliffhanger tbh but I so badlyyy wish it won't be that way. Let their story end here. It will be sad but you know what that's better than the finale just being a tease for a future show. Let all the Tantiss prisoners break out and branch out to live new lives and die naturally as they deserve.

Now... for the actual Bad Batch itself

I'm certain someone is going to die. No one they're all making it out, not after all the teases and death flags. This isn't going to be like Mando S3 where the characters retire on some field for the rest of their lives (that's just for my fix it headcanons ❤️)

As for who, I've gone back and forth on this but I'm not sure. Every remaining member of the 4 troopers we have here have enough death flags on them and I've read compelling theories for all possibilities, including ones where they get Rogue One'd and everyone dies 😭

So I guess I don't really have a theory for this. I'm certain someone is going to die and I'm honestly scared for who it will be but I don't have a specific person yet. I'm leaning towards Hunter or Crosshair cause their conflict and relationships with Omega make the heart of the show itself, but I wouldn't be surprised if Wrecker or Echo died instead, or any other combination of the team members

Only thing I'm mildly certain about is Omega surviving. Disney Star Wars doesn't like to kill kids much. She's not 100% clear but least likely from my perspective. Plus it would end the show on too sad a note if the character driving the entire plot so far dies 😭 I can see a possibility in which she dies to delay Project Necromancer indefinitely, and it would honestly be sad as hell, but that's just it, it would be way too sad. I don't think the show likes being that dark, especially for its finale. And frankly, Omega's arc deserves to end with her finally getting to stop running and just live her life on her own terms.

Hemlock is definitely getting eaten by the Zillo beast while it destroys Tantiss and Rampart is almost surely making it out and turning a new leaf in my eyes. He's not any less of an asshole but he might just go live somewhere away from the Empire and away from the Bad Batch too.

Emerie is an interesting case cause I can't tell if she'll get the redemption = death thing or she'll make it out too. I honestly have 0 predictions for her. I can see her dying to save the force sensitive kids, but I can also see her making it out.

The force sensitive kids, clone cadets, Batcher, and Phee are probably gonna make it out and you know what good for them. They'll probably be the emotional support for the remaining members of the Batch (if there are any) to move on after this.

I am hoping and praying for no Boba Fett or Ventress or Vader or Palpatine cameo cause this is the last episode of the Bad Batch show and it should ideally focus on. The Bad Batch. The show already has too many loose threads. No more cameos please.

As for whoever survives in the Batch, my ideal wish would just be for them to retire to Pabu under a new identity or something and live out their lives. After Tantiss is destroyed, there would be no clones left in captivity. They can finally rest then. It would be bittersweet to see the end of their adventures as they knew it, but it's at least a peaceful end.

Anyways, that's all for my theories I think! Whether I end up being right or not, I hope the finale is actually good 😭 and I hope whoever dies doesn't make me TOO sad, just that sweet spot of devastated but in a good way 😭😭😭

I'll be reblogging this after I watch the finale with updates on whether my predictions were true or not, probably with a thank you post to the show, so I suppose this is it.

See you all on the other side, TBB nation!

#star wars #star wars the bad batch #the bad batch #tbb theory #the bad batch theory #tbb discussion #the bad batch discussion #tbb speculation #the bad batch speculation #tbb season 3 #tbb s3 #tbb finale #the bad batch season 3 #the bad batch finale #not tagging all the characters i theorised about cause thats too many tags probably 😭#jewel talks about stuff #speculation

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jessequinnfirstofhername · 7 months

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Controversial Star Wars opinion: the Star Wars universe is one of the most hopeless universes ever. It poses itself as hopeful, but when you look closer, it's really quite dire.

1) Anakin's life is tragic, whatever redemption he may be argued to have was only found in death, but his entire life sucked... so much

2) Padme tried so hard, and still failed, and found no redemption in death

3) Obi-Wan also tried so hard, and still lost everyone he cared about

4) The clones. All of it, everything about them. Sentient, but not free, thrown away like trash when their usefulness has been served, just like:

5) Droids, all of them, everything about them. Sentient, but not free, etc. Even C3PO, one of the most famous droids, is rarely shown respect by *the heroes* of the series.

6) Luke, what he became - a sad, milk chugging hobo who abandoned his responsibilities after trying to murder his nephew, which - seems wildly out of character for the man who held hope for *Darth Vader*, but I digress.

7) The OT trio were apparently so bad at their jobs that the First Order came back as strong as the Empire in only *thirty years*; this makes Leia look wildly incompetent at governing... Which I hate.

8) Love is destined to fail or end in tragedy - Obi- Wan and Satine, Padme and Anakin Han and Leia, the beloathed Reylo.

9) Evil can only be beaten by good temporarily at best, before it somehow returns.

10) Most of the galaxy exists in widespread poverty and slavery and war are common and neverending.

In conclusion, for a universe that presents itself as hopeful and full of hope for the future... There isn't a lot of it.

I do see where you're coming from, Anon. But I have to mostly disagree with you. I'll go through this point-by-point:

Yes, Anakin's life was difficult, and tragic. But was it all bad? He certainly seemed to have happy moments with Padme, Ahsoka, and/or Obi-Wan during The Clone Wars, and after all the tragedy and horror he suffered (and he did suffer, no matter how self-inflicted some of it was), he died redeemed and cradled in his son's arms, becoming one with The Force.

I do agree with this one. Poor Padme's life is a tragedy.

In the end, he didn't lose Qui-Gon, Yoda, Anakin, or any of his Jedi friends. He'll be with them forever in The Living Force. It is a tragedy that he lost Satine, but he didn't lose everyone.

I don't really have a rebuttal here, as yes, you are actually right. It is wrong how they are treated, and canon itself acknowledges that.

...are droids sentient? They have personalities, but... aren't those personalities just programming? I'm genuinely asking, if anyone has a definitive, canonical answer.

I disagree that Luke's character was ruined by TLJ. I kinda liked that a hero as optimistic as Luke eventually reached his breaking point. It makes him more human, which makes him pulling himself out of that rut and becoming a hero once more all the more meaningful.

I think that canon has established thoroughly enough that The Empire/Palpatine still had tendrils all over The Galaxy, making their return as The First Order inevitable. Also, my understanding is that Leia isn't incompetent, but she was politically ruined when it got out who her father was.

...okay, maybe falling in love in Star Wars is a bit of a health hazard. I'll agree with you there.

Yes, there will always be evil out there, but there will always be good to rise up and vanquish it.

There is no defense or rebuttal to this one, as it's completely true. But most fantasy worlds do have their dark, depressing, or seedy sides. Also, we are constantly seeing wars being ended, slaves freed, and hope being restored to the hopeless in Star Wars. We see the misery turn to joy, over and over again.

My own conclusion; yes, this hopeful universe does have a lot of hopelessness in it. But there is also a bright spark of hope that runs through it all.

However, I'm open to disagreement. This is merely my own response to your points.

#star wars #jesse’s star wars confessional

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ineffable-snowman · 5 months

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Get to know the blogger, via five different ships from five different fandoms! (I cheated and made it five different ships from four different fandoms.)

Thanks for tagging me @sky-kenobye!

1. Ineffable husbands/wives/partners/idiots (Good Omens)

My comfort show and ship. What's not to love about the slowest of slow burns hereditary enemies to lovers? For this ship, almost everything works, even several tropes I've never seen the appeal of before make sense to me now (wing fic, gender bending... just to name a few).

On a personal note, it was through this show (or rather its fandom) that I figured out I might be on the aro/ace spectrum, just the experience of "There are other people who feel like that? There are names for that?" was wonderful and so that's also why it holds a special place in my heart. It's just overall a really positive fandom. Plus Neil Gaiman is on tumblr, which - although I hate celebrity culture - is cool.

2. Obikin (Star Wars)

My oldest ship. I started shipping them in 2005 when ROTS came out, I was gripped by the tragedy of the Obi-Wan&Anakin relationship (it was my introduction to Star Wars, I had no idea who Darth Vader was) and started writing fix-it fics to cope. The first fanfic I posted online was an epic Qui-Gon lives (for a while) AU ending in a Vader redemption arc through the power of friendship. I really like reading platonic Anakin & Obi-Wan, but usually go for the Obikin tag on AO3 because I'm too scared of antis and I know the Obikin writers are cool people. Although the Star Wars fandom as a whole has some ugly sides, I really enjoy the smaller Obikin fandom. Shoutout to my Obikin mutuals, who all are such nice, positive and chill people! No purity wanks, no shitting on other people's ships or kinks... maybe because we know we ship one of the most *problematic* pairings and that fiction =/= reality.

3. Stony (MCU)

I ship them not inspite of Civil War but BECAUSE of it. As a seasoned shipper of Obikin, Cherik and Grindeldore (insert obligatory fuck JKR here), I was like: ooooh, nice, this is the good stuff! Unfortunately, most of the fandom doesn't seem to share my excitement.

4. Sambucky (MCU again)

Boat montage, enough said.

In terms of fandom, it was an eye-opener regarding casual or subtle racism in fandom.

5. Kirk/Spock/McCoy (Star Trek)

Normally I'm not that interested in OT3s but I make an exception for these three. I also enjoy any combination of them (Spirk, Spones and McKirk are all great ships) but I need the third one to be there as well, and not just as a friend who sometimes gives advice to help the other two get together but as an important character in his own way.

Let me end with a controversial opinion: Star Trek V - The Final Frontier is my favourite Star Trek movie.

no pressure tagging @starwalkertales, @piecesofeden11, @fangeek-girl, @fulcrum843, @blue-eyed-cutiepatootie, @gingiekittycat and everyone else who hasn't done it yet!

#fandom things

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self-spaghettification · 6 months

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Because we might find out today as the new missing scene is shown, I need you to know that I think

Why I'm Confident Viren is not dead and I will die on this hill Unlike him Part 2 Electric Boogaloo

This time with a more evidence backed and clearly stated argument

Whether you like Viren or hate his guts or just find him an interesting character, I still think it’s going to be interesting for all of us, and ultimately more satisfying than his death alone.

Let’s get into it.

Primary Evidence

Aaron’s reply in a Twitter Q&A

Devon’s comment on the short reflections story, strangers

TDP Official Discord Q&As after S4

We know it’s not about the short story between them because that story primarily delves into the introspection behind the scene that was “not a very satisfying moment.” Aaron even says yes, Soren and Viren will get a chance to straight up confront each other outside of that moment in the reflections, and that the most meaningful interactions are yet to come.

It says most meaningful interactions, plural, so I don't think it's possible that's the only one.

Counterargument:

While that's true, I think it'd be a dissatisfying ending and there's more potential to his arc, especially reconciling his mistakes/failures with his children rather than escape through death as a martyr of sorts, and l'd be glad if Wonderstorm chose to explore that.

Additional Points:

Summing up the photos above: Aaron and Devon also been very clear on how Viren and Soren will have more interactions plus at the very least, mysterious/open ended on whether he will survive, while in comparison, after S1 they were straightforward and shot down theories that Harrow would survive (re: Pip the bird)

Meanwhile, there are like 10 different ways Viren could survive/be revived. (Claudia, in one way or another. Sir Sparklepuff. Kim’dael blood pact. A storm. The sun not rising. Some other dark or star magic. Some loophole in what was said. A metaphor. Maybe him even changing his mind. Who knows. Point is, it’s still possible.)

Additionally, the whole villain martyr thing has already been done plenty a time (looks at Shadow Weaver and Darth Vader immediately) and I don’t think it’s the direction they have to go with Viren.

We also have the whole redemption themes, picking a third option instead of believing you “have no choice” or are at “a horrifying crossroads” like, no. You have “two cakes” so I believe they will deliver on that.

P.S. They have done fake outs and cliff hangers several times in TDP before. This would not be an outlier.

Conclusion

A redemption arc would just be cooler to see, and I feel like if any show can pull it off, it’s TDP. Give me all of the awkward moments of reconciliation. All the pain and crying together. All the attempts to prove yourself that aren’t immediately accepted because you’ve still done terrible things in the past. All the distrust and vitriol. All the guilt being confronted. It’s going to be delicious and I am so here for it.

#the dragon prince #i’m feeling spicy and excited today folks #self spaghettification #viren #tdp theory #tdp meta #kind of #soren #mine

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intermundia · 1 year

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They could recast yes, but I think the backlash would be crazy for recasting Hayden in particular. I *hope* this will be the last time they use this character, and Hayden got so much flack for his performance in the prequels, people see this as his redemption. There’s no more of Anakin’s story to tell; it’s complete. If they end it here, they won’t need to recast at all. (Versus Vader, who wouldn’t need recasting bc of mask/prosthetic makeup/Hayden being the right age)

I see your point in the disconnect between prequel/animated Anakin, but that was an issue we’d need to go back in time to fix in tcw (the original mischaracterization), not by recasting him for live action (match for animated, mischaracterization for prequels) when people have been gunning to see Hayden’s Anakin with a live action Ahsoka for so long now.

i think the problem is that i'm not really part of the demographic that wanted to see live action ahsoka and anakin in the first place, so my comments are pretty irrelevant. i was very happy with them in animation and wished maybe there was an animated rebels sequel show or something, that could've been really neat. to me hayden!anakin's story was already complete, a very beautiful corpse, and like ahsoka and the entire clone wars is a (long! interesting! lovely!) animated footnote to the prequels story, and rebels was a masterpiece of its own. if they really had to make the transition to live action, i know there would have been backlash for a recast but i think there could have been equivalent good pr for a new hot young star wars heartthrob, i don't know, i don't know shit lol. there's just a reluctance and ambivalence about the de-aging that i can't shake, no matter how much i enjoy how pretty and intriguing the show is in general, or how much i think hayden deserves all the positive attention in the world (he does). next week really will make or break it for me

#sorry i'm just kind of like #having mixed feelings #i am enjoying and am grateful we're getting it for sure #im a fanboy of pre disney star wars so #im in a weird spot about it haha #not trying to shade anyone's enjoyment at all 😭#sw salt #sw

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frumfrumfroo · 8 months

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I get tired of Zuko being brought up as the archetypal redemption arc (I get why people on the pro-redemption side do it, because he's a cultural touchstone for many people when we're kind of in dearth of villain redemptions, contrary to popular belief). But it's interesting how he lacks many of the elements I find engaging about redemption arcs, partly as a consequence of it being a children's show - Zuko can safely be redeemed because his daddy is the true baddie, so we still have the archetypal 'hero defeats villain' story; Zuko doesn't have a romance, and you can argue he's a villain protagonist in many ways, so the absolute product of his arc is kind of discrete; Azula (though apparently she was intended to be redeemed) still functions as a baddie for him to take down, so it's not like nonviolence is embedded in the narrative (which is what I personally find powerful) - and so on.

If I may add to your post, I definitely agree with you that it's a product of the current cultural/media climate, and comparisons to Zuko tend to not be productive. The anatomy of the fallout is little to do with the emotional arc or verisimilitude of the character's development, and so changing that isn't going to change anything. There are also elements like, Zuko gets to be the 'one' contrastive character who did it correctly - emotionally unbound in the story (his major redeeming relationship is with his uncle, even) - and for many people in the current discourse, from a time of childhood idealism. If I were to psychoanalyse these people, Kylo Ren, for instance, is so uncomfortable as a product of teenage narrative cynicism, maybe even worse because the Sequel Trilogy unearthed the OT. Zuko functions sort of like 'the one female character written correctly' which people bandy about to silence discussions of female character criticism or the presence of female characters, despite the fact this is an extremely limiting and antihumanistic approach (for black characters, for black female characters, for disabled characters, and so on - we want a variety). It's like how the 1:4 ratio of women to men is considered 'even'.

But I would go so far to say that why Zuko fails as a point of comparison is that many elements I view as powerful, moving, and challenging in redemption arcs are simply not there. This makes him feel safer. If Zuko is the 'limit', then you can suppress the discussion surrounding villain redemption arcs this way. Because romance isn't a feature, nonviolence isn't a conclusive feature, Azula can't be redeemed (she's truly crazy and evil), so redemption is a 'yea high' bar of disappointment. This is why I am tired of Zuko as a point of comparison bandied by the anti-redemption crowd, both because it stymies storytelling (there is no limit on what sorts of stories deserve to be told) but because it's actually kind of... not the same thing as what we're talking about. It doesn't go far enough. It barely does at all (and in anime, the villain redemptions tend to go pretty far, so what Avatar was playing off of was, well, playing it safe).

I also think it would be a different story if they had gone for Zuko/Katara with a female POV, but I don't really believe that both of those things were ever the intention. There's not really room for it in the Aang Show where the girl is a prize. But I'm not sure that many would meditate on it with such content if romance were involved at all. Hell, even now there are people who insist that Vader's redemption wasn't one at all because it commits too much - and that's why I think Zuko as an example persists.

I can't speak on the actual content because I was never in the fandom and haven't seen the show, but I'm sure you're right. I also think it's largely to do with these people having seen Zuko's arc when they were younger and it being 'grandfathered in'. As we see with some of the antis in sw fandom being totally fine with anidala or thinking Anakin is a sympathetic and tragic character, but lose their shit at the suggestion Ben is intended the same way despite being a far, far less demanding example. Even though anidala actually was an abusive relationship and reylo is not. etc.

Because they grew up with it and have already accepted the story's conclusion, they retrofit the 'good' and 'hero' labels and are thus fine with Anakin's redemption. The label is more important than any action he could take, because these people are working from an indelible label-based 'morality'. It's a form of Protagonist Centred Morality.

And I'm confident the same is true of A:TLAB.

And yes, there's also the fact that it's apparently an extremely tame and not very challenging redemption, because it's a show for little kids and thus Zuko doesn't kill anyone or do anything that violent. And again, I haven't seen it, but I get the impression he was always at least a bit sympathetic? So you never saw him as a simple and unrepentant villain. I could be wrong about that idk.

It is an extremely annoying thing that people still trot this out as the 'one acceptable redemption arc for all fiction ever', but that attitude has nothing to do with the writing of his arc or his character and everything to do with the people saying this and the circumstances under which they were exposed to him. And it's a self-fulfilling prophecy at this point because he's been given the pass, so even people coming to the show later already have permission to like him and won't respond to him the way they would otherwise.

The anti echo chamber will keep perpetuating this.

#fandom #tropes #writing

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