#Meleagros answers

[olympianbutch]

What do you think about people who are in their periods praying, giving offerings and/or approaching the altar? I read that you weren’t allowed to enter the temples in ancient greece if you were menstruating so I have that doubt

Χαίρε, anon! ((:

So, of the hundreds of inscribed temple regulations we have from ancient Greece, not a single one bars menstruating women from participating in ancient Greek religious life.

There are four exceptions to this rule, though calling them "exceptions" is admittedly very generous.

To begin, all four inscriptions come from late antiquity and they all belong to temples of Near Eastern import. Of note is the fact that not one of these four temples belongs to a Greek god. This suggests that certain Near Eastern traditions did exclude menstruating women from participating in religious life, but the same cannot be said about Greek women. Why is that, though?

The four inscriptions (which were written in ancient Greek) give us some clues. For starters, the word "menstruation" is not explicitly used in temple inscriptions found on the Greek mainland; it is instead referred to as a "female matter." This skirting around any direct mention of menstruation is representative of the near-complete segregation of the sexes in ancient Greece.

To put it simply, Greek men did not discuss "female matters," or the female body, for that matter. Doing so was considered extremely taboo. So taboo that physicians—by and large—did not treat female patients, meaning most women died of illness. Addressing menstruation in direct terms would mean that it was no longer out of sight and out of mind, and the Greeks likely wanted to keep it that way.

The issue is made doubly complex when you realize that we don't actually know how ancient Greek women managed their periods. Experts like Dr. Helen King—a classicist who specializes in menstruation in ancient Greece—theorize that women of means maybe wore linen cloth to catch their menses. Poor women (who couldn't afford such expenditures) likely remained in their homes to bleed freely.

What does any of this information tell modern-day worshippers? Well, it suggests that we simply don't know enough to be able to say one way or the other whether or not menstruating Greek women were excluded from religious life.

It most certainly tells us that menses management is way different now than it was back then. And unlike our religious predecessors, we now have personal hygiene products we can use to ensure we don't bleed out at the altar lol 😆

In general, I don't think it makes sense to pretend like modern worshippers can't menstruate and worship at the same time. There certainly isn't enough ancient evidence to suggest that was the standard, so why make it the standard now? This is definitely one of those things where I'm like "do what feels most appropriate to you."

I don't menstruate anymore, but if I did, I'd probably still worship. Alternatively, if I was on my period and feeling mentally unclean/generally gross, I wouldn't (unless I was approaching the gods for some relief).

I know people who take breaks from their religious duties while menstruating, and I know others who don't make any changes to their routines at all. It all depends on your personal comfort level. Just like how everyone's period is different, everyone's worship is different! And that's OK ((:

[jeannereames]

Kind of related to the ask on Cleopatra, and even your one way earlier on Krateros… What do you think Alexander would’ve been like if he weren’t an Argead, and instead fated to be a Marshal for whoever else was meant for the throne? Do you think he would’ve been rebellious? Or cutthroat and ambitious like Krateros? Or more-so disciplined and loyal? I kind of see him as a combination of all three because I don’t peg Alexander for someone who can be contained, lol.

To answer this, we must keep in mind that, for the ancient Greeks, belief in divine parentage for certain family lines was very real. A given family and/or person ruled due to their descent. The heroes in Homer had divine parents/grandparents/great-grandparents. This notion continued into the Archaic period with oligarchic city-states ruled by hoi aristoi: “the best men.” (Yes, our word “aristocrat” comes from that.) Many of these wealthy families claimed divine ancestry; that’s why they were “best.”

In the south, this began to break down from the 5th century into the 4th. But not in Macedonia, Thessaly, or Epiros. In fact, even by Alexander’s day, many Greek poleis remained oligarchies, not democracies. And in democracies, “equality” was reserved for a select group: adult free male citizens. Competition (agonía) was how to prove personal excellence (aretȇ), and thereby gain fame (timȇ) and glory (kléos). All this was still regarded as the favor of the gods.

Alexander believed himself destined for great things because he was raised to believe that, as a result of his birth. Pop history sometimes presents only Olympias as encouraging his “special” status. But Philip also inculcated in Alexander a belief he was unique. He (and Olympias) got Alexander an Epirote prince as a lesson-master, then Aristotle as a personal tutor. Philip made Alexander regent at 16 and general at 18. That’s serious “fast track.” Alexander didn’t earn these promotions in the usual way; he was literally born to them.

If Alexander hadn’t been an Argead, that would have impacted his sense of his place in the world no less than it did because he was an Argead. What he might have reasonably expected his life path to take would have depended heavily on what strata of society he was born into.

Were he a commoner, in the Macedonian military system, his ambitions might have peaked at decadarch/dekadarchos (leader of a file). Higher officer positions were reserved for aristocrats through Philip’s reign. With Alexander himself, after Gaugamela, things started to change for the infantry, at least below the highest levels (but not in the cavalry, as owning a horse itself was an elite marker). Under Philip, skilled infantry might be tagged for the Pezhetairoi (who became the Hypaspists under ATG). But Alexander himself wouldn’t have qualified because those slots weren’t just for the best infantrymen, but the LARGEST ones. (In infantry combat, being large in frame was a distinct advantage.) So as a commoner, Alexander’s options would have been severely limited.

Things would have got more interesting if he’d been born into the ranks of the Hetairoi families, especially if from the Upper Macedonian cantons.

Lower cantons were Macedonian way back. If born into those, he (and his parents) would have been jockeying for a position as syntrophos (companion) of a prince. Then, he’d try to impress that prince and gain a position as close to him as possible, which could result in becoming a taxiarch/taxiarchos or ilarch/ilarchos in the infantry or cavalry. But he’d better pick the RIGHT prince, as if his wound up failing to secure the kingship, he might die, or at least fall under heavy suspicion that could permanently curtain real advancement.

That was the usual expectation for Lower Macedonian elites. Place as a Hetairos of the king and, if proven worthy in combat, relatively high military command. Yes, like Krateros. But hot-headedness could curtail advancement, as apparently happened to Meleagros, who started out well but never advanced far. The higher one rose, the more one became a potential target: witness Philotas, and later Perdikkas. In contrast, Hephaistion was Teflon (until his death). Yet Hephaistion’s status rested entirely on his importance to Alexander. And he probably wasn’t Macedonian anyway; nor was Perdikkas from Lower Macedonia, for that matter.

The northern cantons were semi-independent to fully autonomous earlier in Macedonian history. Their rulers also wore the title “basileus” (king); we just tend to translate it as “prince” to acknowledge they became subservient to Pella/Aigai. Philip incorporated them early in his reign, and I think there’s a tendency to overlook lingering resentment (and rebellion) even in Philip’s latter years. Philip’s mother was from Lynkestis, and his first wife (Phila) from Elimeia. Those marriages (his father’s and his) were political, not love matches.

Similarly, Oretis was independent, and originally more connected to Epiros. Note that Perdikkas, son of Orontes, was commanding entire battalions when he, too, was comparatively young. Like Alexander, he was “born” to it. Carol King has a very interesting chapter on him in the upcoming collection I��m editing, one that makes several excellent points about how later Successors really did a number on Perdikkas’s reputation (and not just Ptolemy).

If Alexander had been born into one of these royal families from the upper cantons, quasi-rebellious attitudes might be more likely. Much would depend on how he wanted to position himself. Harpalos, Perdikkas, Leonnatos, Ptolemy…all were from upper or at least middle cantons. They faired well. For that matter, Parmenion himself may have been from an upper canton and decided to throw in his hat with Philip.

By Philip’s day, trying to be independent of Pella was not a wise political choice, but if one came from a royal family previously independent, we can see why that might be seductive. Lower Macedonia had always been the larger/stronger kingdom. But prior to Philip, Lynkestis and Elimeia both had histories of conflict with Macedonia, and of supporting alternate claimants for the Macedonian throne. At one point in (I think?) the Peloponnesian War, Elimeia was singled out as having the best cavalry in the north. Aiani, the main capital, had long ties WEST to Corinthian trade (and Epirote ports). It was a powerful kingdom in the Archaic/early Classical era, after which, it faded.

So, these places had proud histories. If Alexander had been born in Aiani, would he have been willing to submit to Philip’s heir? Maybe not. But realistically, could he have resisted? That’s more dubious. By then, Elimeia just didn’t have the resources in men and finances.

I hope this gives some insight into how much one’s social rank influenced how one learned to think about one’s self. Also, it gives some insight into political factions in Macedonia itself. As noted, I believe we fail to recognize just how much influence Philip had in uniting Lower and Upper Macedonia. Nor how resentment may have lingered for decades. I play with this in Dancing with the Lion: Rise, as I do think it had an impact on Philip’s assassination.

(Spoiler!)

Philips discussion with his son in the Rise, and his “counter-plot” (that goes awry) may be my own invention, but it’s based in what I believe were very real lingering resentments, 20+ years into Philip’s rule.

[deathlessathanasia]

“Next are the Moirai. Homer mentions them just once by their collective name, at Iliad 24.49, when they are described as giving enduring hearts to men, but lliad 24.209–10 also gives us a singular Moira who spins with her thread a particular fate for Hektor at his birth, and Aisa substitutes for Moira in a similar phrase at Iliad 18.20.127-28. For its part, Odyssey 7.197-98 speaks of both Aisa and the stern Klothes (Spinners) jointly in this same role; these latter are surely the Moirai under a descriptive epithet (the form Klothes is elsewhere unattested). Finally, even Zeus (Od 4.207–8), or the gods as a whole (Od 1.17–18), can do the spinning at times. Moira as a singular noun is, of course, quite common in both epics, but except forthe above instances never clearly personified.

In Hesiod we first find the goddesses' number and individual names: Klotho (the Spinner), Lachesis (the Apportioner), and Atropos (the Unavoidable), who give good and evil to men at their birth (Th 217–19, 904–6). In the earlier of these two passages, where they and the Keres are children of Nyx, these individual names follow awkwardly in 218 after the mention of the Keres, as does the subsequent task of pursuing wrongdoers in 219: very likely both these lines (West brackets them) are in fact intruders, with the wrongdoers originally hunted down by the Keres. The later passage at 904 revises their genealogy in accordance with the new order and makes them the offspring of Themis and Zeus, who is the source of their power. In the Hesiodic Aspis, the three resurface (on the shield itself), with Atropos the shortest and oldest (258–63), but these lines too are probably interpolated; certainly the following reference to a role in battle, if genuine, indicates again the preceding Keres.

Elsewhere the Moirai are not much in evidence. Klotho appears in Pindar's Olympian 1 as the goddess supervising the rebirth of Pelops (Ol 1.26: a rare story of bringing the dead to life, in seeming violation of moira, and perhaps invented by Pindar), and Lachesis is present in the same author's Paian 12 at the birth of Artemis and Apollo to Leto, as well as at the allotment of honors to the Olympians in Olympian 7 (Pa 12.16–17; 01 7.64-67). In Olympian 6 all three attend (with Eileithuia) the birth of Iamos (Ol6.41-42: cf. Nem 7.1), and likewise in Olympian 10 they are present at Herakles' founding of the Olympian games (Ol 10.51–52). More unusually, in a fragment of Pindar they bring Themis as wife to Zeus, thus suggesting that they cannot here be his children by her (fr 30.3 SM). Another fragment, which may be simply poetic recasting, calls Tyche the most powerful Moira (fr 41 SM). In this connection we may also note an unassigned lyric fragment (Simonides?) with a prayer to Aisa, Klotho, and Lachesis, the daughters of Nyx (1018 PMG).

Turning to Aischylos, we find Apollo accused of deceiving and persuading the Moirai (in the matter of Admetos) with the help of wine-a most surprising notion of which no other trace exists (Eum 723–28: one wonders what Phrynichos' Alkestis might have said on the matter). The Prometheus Desmotes mentions them in a more respectful vein, as helmsmen (with the Erinyes) of necessity (PD 515-16); to Io's query whether they are stronger than Zeus there is, alas, no direct answer.

One other story in which we might have expected to encounter them is that of Althaia and the brand given to her at Meleagros' birth. Bakchylides tells this tale in his Ode 5 (140–44), but names simply moira as weaving such a fate for Meleagros; how Althaia learned of the brand's significance, or who created such a situation, we are not told. Phrynichos dramatized the myth in his Pleuroniai, and there the Moirai may have played a greater role, though presumably not on stage, since the action surely revolved around Meleagros' death years later. As matters stand we must turn to Ovid, Apollodoros, and Hyginus for accounts of their involvement in this tale (Met 8.451–57; ApB 1.8.1; Fab 171). Of the three, Hyginus has the most interesting feature, that when they appeared to Althaia Klotho promised that the child would be magnanimous (or noble?), Lachesis that he would be strong, and Atropos that he would live as long as the brand on the hearth lasted, conceivably a gift rather than a curse. Whatever the details, it is an odd story — not fully in accord with other early accounts of Meleagros' fate, and the only preserved suggestion that the Moirai ever communicate directly with mortals regarding their lot. In art they are virtually unknown, but they do appear as three women (inscribed "Moirai') among the guests at Thetis' wedding on both the François Krater (Florence 4209) and the Erskine Dinos (London 1971.11-1.1).”

 - Early Greek Myth: A Guide to Literary and Artistic Sources by Timothy Gantz

[projironwithin]

Post-mission: Officer Talks

Sergeant Thalysios threw the last of the orks into the burning pyre, watching at the body immediately lurched in some perverse attempt – even with a missing head – to fight before falling right back into its position. The stench of their alien flesh and meat cooking offended even their helmet’s respiratory filters but the second company remained stalwart to it all. The enemy was defeated and their numbers will not regenerate easily with ash. The older astartes slowly turned to observe his soldiers. They have all fought well today, even though the loss of Galenus will bring some margin of flexibility lessening to their overall unit. His power fist clenched in a quiet wrath. “Sargeant Thalysios!” A voice called, bringing him to straight attention and about-face. Much to his personal surprise, it was the Captain himself with a small honour guard of veterans like themselves. Captain Meleagros, like him, was a Terranborn yet he embraced the rediscovery of their Primarch with a fair grace. The black-and-yellow lining of his artificer plating and cloak had a romanticism to him that was not lost to the sergeant. Crested helmet in his folded arm and the opposite’s hand resting on the hilt of his power sword, the fire rolled off his sculpted stern face. Dark eyes looked to Thalysios and the rest of the Sixth Tactical Squad under his command. “I have been told one of your’s geneseeds were collected from our last battle.” He said simply, joining Thalysios in watching the pyre. “Yes, sir.” The answer as dry as the ground they stood on. “The fool did not keep to cover as ordered.” “Such a harshness, brother-sergeant. Better to die of a good battle than die of lesser manner.” Meleagros said. Thalysios almost wanted to snort but kept his professionalism to front. “Your soldiers have done well today as did the others to keep the line.” “It is duty. Nothing more, anything less and we are not worthy to be called among the Fourth Legion.” The sergeant said. “True, but a congratulation is still proper. How is your new blood?” “Kallipides?” Thalysios questioned. The Captain simply nodded and waited on his friend’s answer, “The boy has potential, but like many youths, his fire will pull him into death’s embrace.” “Then it will be tempered into iron-case.” The Captain said in finality, gesturing to have his guard away for privacy. “Sir?”    The addressment caused a noticeable sigh. It was recent that Meleagros received his role as the company captain after the Warsmith dealt with their previous in a less-than-formal way. An example of the new Iron Tyrant’s rule and Meleagros has the unfortunate tact to be their captain’s decorated lieutenant beforehand. The terran bravado was true in him and the kinship he shared a rarity among his fellow officers. “Your men are to join me in the next assault on these xenos. The Warsmith is making preparations in this region’s campaign and his tactful thoughts have…put me to question his care to our lives.” Meleagros spoke openly because he knew could trust Thalysios and they both knew that. They’ve survived many battles together and their bond was strong. “He is ambitious, brother-captain.” Thalysios verified without putting himself in a rebellious position, for all he knew – this was some ploy. “What is the mission?” Quick to change the subject. The Captain stroked his faded stubble as he squinted at the fire as if seeing it now through the dead blackening carcasses.  “We have beaten a fair number, but their leader is still at large. As long as he lives, we are incomplete in our conquest.” Meleagros said, looking at the sergeant with a pale fire in his face. “He must be slain and the rest will break.”

[hecvenslight-blog]

thrýlos (legend)

i. ATALANTA was an Arkadian heroine--a huntress and a favourite of the goddess Artemis. She was exposed by her father at birth in the wilds but was suckled by a she-bear and afterwards found and raised by hunters.

ii. Atalanta swore to defend her virginity and when two Kentauroi (Centaurs) burst into her grove, she slew them with arrows. She later took part in the voyage of the Argonauts and defeated the hero Peleus in wrestling at the funeral games of King Pelias.

iii. When King Oineus (Oeneus) summoned heroes to destroy the Kalydonian (Calydonian) Boar, Atalanta answered the call and was the first to draw blood. Meleagros (Meleager) awarded her the prize of the skin but his uncles protested and tried to take it from her by force. The hero slew them for the affront.

iv. Atalanta was eventually reunited with her father Skhoineus (Schoeneus) who insisted that she wed. The heroine reluctantly agreed insisting that a suitor must defeat her in a race and that the losers be put to death. Melanion--or Hippomenes--however, sought the help of the goddess Aphrodite who provided him with three golden apples to cast before the girl in the race. When Atalanta stooped to retrieve these, she was slowed enough to allow the hero to emerge victorious. Their marriage was a short-lived one, for Hippomenes neglected to pay Aphrodite her dues. She cursed him and he was compelled to lie with his wife in the sacred precinct of Zeus, Rhea or Artemis where an offended deity transformed them into lions.

v. Atalanta's name was derived from the Greek word atalantos meaning "equal in weight"--perhaps a reference to her success in various contests with men.

source for atalante’s lore.

i. Maria was born and raised onboard the Space Colony ARK. Before she could visit earth, however, she contracted Neuro-Immuno Deficiency Synfrome, an incurable and inevitably fatal disease. Due of her illness, which left her frail and weak, Maria needed constant attention, so she could not leave the ARK's hospital, leaving her confined in space. Despite getting medical help though, Maria only grew weaker over time. While looking down at the earth from the ARK, Maria developed an interest in it and longed to go there.

ii. Onboard the ARK, Maria was looked after and cared for by her grandfather, Gerald Robotnik. Maria came to mean everything to Gerald, and the two of them would work and live together onboard the ARK. Maria also befriended a young Commander, whom she would play with.

iii.In an attempt to save Maria's life, Gerald agreed to work on Project Shadow, a medical project for creating an immortal life form, in hopes that he could make a cure for Maria's illness with the creature they sought to make. Gerald's research eventually led to the creation of Shadow the Hedgehog, who Maria befriended and grew very close to. While raised together, Maria remained by Shadow's side and they would spend their time together gazing down upon the earth, wondering what it was like and wishing to go there.

iv. When the Artificial Chaos went on a rampage onboard the Space Colony ARK, Maria sought out Shadow to help save the ARK. Shadow complied to Maria's wishes and the Artificial Chaos crisis was soon after averted. At some point, Maria joined Gerald when he was making a contingency video for Shadow to tell him about how he was meant to defeat the Black Arms, where Maria promised to help Shadow protect the world alongside him.

 v. Some time after the completion of Project Shadow, Maria's peaceful existence was shattered when GUN attacked the ARK to eliminate everything and everyone related to the project, as they had come to believe that Project Shadow was too dangerous. Meeting up with her grandfather during the attack, Maria was entrusted with Shadow by Gerald, who told her to escape the ARK with Shadow. While Gerald distracted GUN, Maria and Shadow tried to escape the raid, but Maria was unwilling to leave the other researchers in the captivity of GUN and pleaded Shadow to help them. After Shadow had made his decision, they continued onward, but were attacked by a Heavy Dog which Shadow defeated.

vi. Eventually, Maria and Shadow got to the ARK's escape pods. There, Maria saved Shadow by initiating his escape pod's launch with him in it, but was mortally wounded by a GUN Soldier's gunshot in the process. With her last strength, Maria pleaded to Shadow to protect the world for her sake and give everyone a chance to be happy, just as he was jettisoned from the ARK. As Maria perished, her parting words were "Bring hope to humanity."

vii. Maria's death was an event that deeply struck those close to her and would have a strong influence in several conflicts that would determine the fate of the world. Shadow, who witnessed Maria's death first-handed, was traumatized by this sight and came to loathe humanity for what they did. The Commander also suffered a deep loss which made him develop a life-long grudge at both Gerald and Shadow for inadvertently killing her. However, none was more affected by Maria's death than her grandfather, Gerald, who went mad with grief and made a plan to destroy the world to avenge her. Before he went insane though, Gerald made Maria's last words the keywords that would activate Emerl's free-willed emotions-based AI.

viii. Maria's last request for Shadow to protect the world and its people would be a driving force in the hedgehog's life, which Shadow made the promise to keep despite his loathing of humanity. When Shadow was reawaken nearly fifty years later though, his subsequent actions were motivated by avenging Maria's death (due to Gerald manipulating his memories) by destroying the human race. It was not until the eleventh hour that Shadow remembered Maria's dying wish, and he aided Sonic the Hedgehog and his allies in stopping the very plan he had set into motion, seemingly sacrificing his life in the process. Shadow survived his ordeal only to lose his memories, with the exception of a disturbing image of Maria being shot. When the Black Arms invaded and set Shadow out to rediscover his purpose, Black Doom would use Maria's demise at the hands of the humans to sway Shadow to his side. Fortunately, Shadow learned of his true purpose from a final video message from Maria and Gerald, which gave him the motivation needed to obliterate the Black Arms.

 source for maria robotnik’s lore.

[olympianbutch]

(1/2) Bro, like. I agre with ur post abt gods and terfs BUT. U said "the gods would oppose what is contrary to progress" but what abt slavery and misoginy in ancient greece? violence, r*pe, wars, etc. Are u going to tell me theoi didn't hear the prayers of ancient greeks? bigots will always exist and they'll always pray and gods don't care abt human terms/war of morals. They're neutral as long as u pray and offer, they don't choose favorites.

Χαίρε, anon!

I disagree with you insofar as this assumes that bigotry in humans is innate. It isn't, and suggesting otherwise would be to argue that oppression and inequity can be excused because "it's just something we do." As humans, we are animals. And animals are fallible.

I also think it's presumptuous to say that the gods are wholly neutral because historically that isn't true. Zeus, for instance, is not neutral about hospitality or the treatment of suppliants or cold-blooded murder, etc.

(If you'd like me to include the second part of your ask, please let me know!)

[olympianbutch]

Hiya! I saw on one of your posts that ancient people did believe the Gods could hear silent prayers. I have always heard the opposite. Would you happen to have any sources you could share on the matter? I think it would be very comforting to a lot of people. Thank you :)

Χαίρε!

I'm not sure it would be a 'comfort' since silent prayers had an unusual (if not negative) connotation in ancient Greece, but my source is Simon Pulleyn's "Prayer in Greek Religion" (Oxford University Press: Oxford, 1997, pg. 184–8):

The bulk of our evidence suggests that the ancient Greeks prayed out loud [ . . . ] That prayer was spoken aloud was the normal practice is underlined by the fact that silent prayer is treated as an oddity. When Ajax is arming for battle, he says [to Chryses] (Il. 7. 193ff.): Come now, while I am putting on the armor of war, pray to lord Zeus [the] son of Cronus, silently to yourselves, lest the Trojans find out [ . . . ] The implication of Ajax's having to add the qualification 'silently on your own' is that most prayers were not of this kind. [ . . . ] In later periods, silent prayer was often explained by saying that the petitioner's request was somehow dishonorable. According to Clement of Alexandria, Pythagoras thought those praying ought [ . . . ] 'to pray aloud . . . because they wanted the prayers to be just, of a sort that nobody would be ashamed to make if there were many witnesses.'

Ajax telling Chryses to pray 'silently on your own' implies that the gods are fully capable of hearing silent prayers. I omitted it from the quoted passage above, but Pulleyn mentions how Odysseus is described as praying 'in his heart' (i.e., silently) repeatedly throughout the Odyssey. IMO, it wouldn't make sense to pray silently or to tell others to do so if the gods weren't believed to hear them.

As I said, silent prayer was considered to be unusual. In later periods, it came to be viewed as downright insidious. This was the perception of ancient peoples, though, not the gods. I promise you, They understand that spoken-aloud prayer is regarded as largely strange in our modern cultural context. They've always been able to hear silent prayers, and they listen to ours, too.

[olympianbutch]

i just wanna say words cannot begin to express the level of joy and comfort that zeus aithiops art brings me every time i see it esp as a black person getting into the helpol community and everything 😭 like it's just so so comforting and reassuring

Χαίρε, anon! 🥹🫶🏻

I'm a very tedious person and my hands work slowly, so I apologize that the piece unfinished, but:

I have more artistic portrayals of Zeus Aithiops the Father in the works :,)

I'm dead serious about wanting to see more representations of Him in our community! If it comes down to it, I'll do the work myself 😭

[olympianbutch]

Hi! I really like your blog, and I'm curious if you just worship deities, or do you worship heroes, spirits, etc. as well? Would you be interested in worshiping Sappho, for example? 

 I'm new to the Tumblr pagan/polytheist-sphere, and I was inspired by my research on Sappho and Aphrodite (I'm slowly working on defining modern Sapphic rhetoric and modern Sapphic online spaces) for my MA thesis to look into polytheism. I' also identify as a sapphic woman so this topic is in general very fun for me to learn about. Also, would it be okay if I included your answer in my project? If not, totally cool! ☺️ and if so, thats great too. (I can def give you more info about what I'm doing if you'd like as well.)

I’ve honored the dead here and there throughout my years of practicing. :) It’s been nothing fancy, though, since I honestly haven’t delved into the specifics of hero worship.

My understanding is that cults of the dead centered around a hero’s remains/possessions. I live in the American west, which is far as fuck from any of the tombs that received worship in Greek antiquity. 😵‍💫 I’ve had a relatively easy time petitioning deified heroes (as opposed to niche local Greek ones since their bigger, multilocational cults suggest they weren’t confined to a single location).

When it comes to my ancestor veneration, I do pray to my immediate and very distant relatives! Mainly because I feel a deep sense of reverence towards my maternal ancestors, and we have heirlooms from that side that make it easy to connect with them. :)

I don’t worship Sappho or any of the poets, and it may sound goofy, but I don’t really feel any sort of way about Sappho. I haven’t read her works, either. 😵‍💫 I know the very basics about what little [we think] we know about her life, and I have a Loeb (Greek Lyric, Volume I: Sappho and Alcaeus) that includes her works, but I haven’t gotten to reading it...

Y’know what? I’ll reblog this answer in a little bit after I read a few poems. Then y’all can see my Live Lesbian Reaction‼️

[olympianbutch]

i hope this makes sense, but i've had this back-and-forth with my faith in my head for years and in light of your recent post i was wondeing - if you're in the headspace to talk about this - what your thoughts are on the theoi and their relations with otherwise bigoted worshippers. ex: if a bunch of terfs claim to hear from Aphrodite that trans women aren't real women, what am i to make of that ? does their bigotry distort how their receive messages from the theoi, and in which case, does that mean the gods support of me and my queer fellows in my mind are also our own distortion ? are they being guided towards a better mindset and being given the benefit of the doubt ? if i (a trans man) think i'm talking to a loving Aphrodite while a terf thinks they are talking to a radfem Aphrodite, what makes any of this matter ? if the theoi would give their love to those who wish me dead, what is the purpose of my faith ? i've never known how to make sense of this, but it won't ever stop me from loving the theoi (particularly my relationship with Dionysos - i mean, cmon, there's nothing cisgender about him)

I promise I haven't been ignoring your ask, anon. I've just been taking some time to mull over this, and it really got me thinking.

The cognitive science of religion posits that every human being comes equipped with a sort of "spiritual toolbox." This means that evolutionarily, we hominids are prone to exhibiting or exercising religious thoughts and behaviors. How these thoughts and behaviors manifest is incredibly diverse. Seriously, you would be astounded by the cultural and religious diversity of our species. And historically, diversity has been met with either fear or hatred (though these are by no means mutually exclusive).

I believe that fear and hate are contrary to our nature because it inhibits progress (evolutionarily, we are an incredibly progressive species). I think that the gods—being the governors of nature—would oppose that which is contrary to progress. And thus I believe that the gods do not inform or support or arbitrate transphobia (or any kind of bigotry, for that matter).

My feelings on this aren't exactly convoluted, yet this is a topic that requires a full range of thought. So, I consulted two of the smartest transsexuals I know (@ofsappho & @hekateanfoodie) to see what they had to say about this:

Areia says . . .

"To speak from a more personal perspective, the truth is, as a queer/trans person of color, I have no idea whether or not what people who want to hurt me and see me dead and claim that they speak to my gods experiences are 'real.'

I have no way of externally verifying what is going on with them.

But I look for the theoi in my life and i see that divinity everywhere. I love how this poem describes it. Personally? In my opinion, divinity is inherently subversive and outside the 'norm' and unconventional.

The gods do not love what hurts that which they love, I know that to be true

If they think the gods hate me and they speak for the gods, that is blasphemous

And impious

That is objectively true

So I guess… I look and see how the gods love me everywhere and how divinity seeps through the cracks of ordinary life and celebrates the extraordinary. Being transgender is a calling and I would not experience it if the gods didn’t intend for me to walk this path."

Mika says . . .

"I’m going to use Christianity as the biggest example here because it has the largest pool to pull from. I also don’t think tackling this question from a theological standpoint is entirely helpful because theology is too subjective for us to find any meaningful discourse. Also it’s too easy for the other side to react with the same argument of 'this is what I believe.' (Though we can talk about orthopraxy and how belief is secondary so really all this is a moot point to begin with!)

Regarding the point: religion can be used for either oppression or liberation. Which is entirely up to you. MLK was Christian, as was Adοlf Ηitler… but if we were to ask the majority of people on earth who god favors which do you think the consensus would be? If we were to ask who was more worthy of heaven, Harriet Tubman or Christopher Columbus, who do you think the consensus would agree upon? The point here is that regardless of personal belief—Liberation. Is. Just.

And we can talk about who Aphrodite loves more based on personal experience with the divine until we are blue in the face, but who do you think is more rewarded on earth? The TERF, or the trans masc butch with love for all?

I personally think that what we do on this earth matters more than what we do in the afterlife. As much as Orphism and eschatology fascinates me- contemplating death is meaningless if you didn’t do anything here to make conditions for everyone else better. The ground we walk on is holy. The way we conduct ourselves while walking Earth is observed by the gods.

And if you spend your time trying to invalidate your fellow humans- instead of making life better for them- the ground you walk on will be blighted.

That’s like not religious contemplation that’s just a fact lmfao. If you spend your time conceiving ways to make other people miserable for existing you will blight the earth. Lmfao."

I don't exactly have any concluding thoughts (,: I just think we would benefit from chewing on these ideas for a while

[olympianbutch]

Do you think Hellenic Polytheists need to worship exactly the way the ancient Greeks did? I've noticed this sentiment somewhat heavily, and while I think it's important to understand the historical basis for our practice and adhere to the values (xenia, kharis, etc.) it's kinda made me feel insecure about my practice if i feel a want to deviate at all. Would love to know your thoughts!

Khaire, anon; this question has been very thought-provoking, so I’d like to thank you for asking it—genuinely! :)

My opinion on this is subject to change depending on the circumstances; e.g., which historical practices are we talking about, is the practitioner new to Hellenic polytheism, etc.? Additionally, even as a speculative reconstructionist, there are relatively few ancient Greek practices I believe modern worshippers must adhere to.

I’ll provide a few case examples to better demonstrate my beliefs.

For instance, if we’re talking about ritual cleanliness, I think every Hellenic polytheist who knows that the ancient Greeks washed their hands before approaching the gods should adhere to that religious protocol.

“And do not ever pour a libation of gleaming wine at dawn to Zeus or the other immortals with unwashed hands; for they do not listen, but spurn the prayers” (Hesiod, Works and Days, 724 – 6).

If someone doesn’t know about it, then I wouldn’t expect them to practice ritual handwashing; but as soon as they learn about it, the expectation would be that they incorporate it into their worship.

My feelings are virtually the same when it comes to upholding kharis (reciprocity) and xenia (hospitality). Together, they make up the foundation of ancient Greek religion, so as modern Hellenic polytheists, it’s up to us to uphold and maintain the integrity of those principles. Worshippers who don’t yet know about kharis or xenia should be educated on these virtues by their peers so they can easily adopt them.

When it comes to giving modern offerings vs. traditional ones, I firmly believe that one is no better or more legitimate than the other. Ultimately, we are all giving gifts to the gods, so it doesn’t matter if it’s holy frankincense or a My Little Pony figurine; what matters is that the offeror is pious. Unless someone’s giving the gods their human bodily omissions, all offerings should be presumed faultless.

Similarly, I am staunch in my belief that a worshipper’s prayers are of no concern to an outside observer. If they’re not a guest praying for the downfall of a gracious host, then we should mind ourselves and our prayers.

Lastly, I would never try and regulate a person’s personal pantheon. If someone worships the Panhellenic instantiations of the gods over their various epithets, that’s perfectly OK. Ideally, I think Hellenic polytheists should know about epithets, but I doubly think their use is optional.

If you (or anyone else) have any clarifying questions, feel free to send me another ask or a message! I really hope I was able to provide you a satisfying answer. :)

[olympianbutch]

do you believe in evolution while being an hellenic polytheist? im struggling to imagine gaea creating dinosaurs and stuff

Χαίρε!

To make a long answer short: yes, I do believe in evolution. In fact, I'm currently in a class called "Bones, Stones, and Human Evolution."

Hesiod's Theogony is not meant to be a play-by-play of the history of the kosmos. No Greek cosmology is. If anything, it's intended to give audiences an idea of how the world around them is structured, how it works, and where they stand in it. It also tells us where the gods stand in relation to us and each other. Myths are not literal histories—they are points of familiarity. They paint comprehensible pictures of the natural world that are intended to be understood within a specific cultural context and at a specific time.

Our understanding of the natural world has changed, but that doesn't make the stories any less valuable or the gods any less real.

[olympianbutch]

Have you ever heard of someone worshipping the Fates? :0

Χαίρε!

Do you mean modern or ancient someones?

Pausanias mentions a handful of altars and temples where the Moirai received worship:

"[On the Akropolis of Korinthos:] The temple of the Moirai and that of Demeter and Kore have images that are not exposed to view" (Description of Greece, 2. 4. 7).

"On the direct road from Sikyon to Phlios . . . At a distance along it, in my opinion, of twenty stades, to the left on the other side of the Asopos [river], is a grove of holm oaks and a temple of the goddesses named by the Athenians the Semnai, and by the Sikyonians the Eumenides. On one day in each year, they celebrate a festival to them and offer sheep big with young as a burnt offering, and they are accustomed to use a libation of honey and water, and flowers instead of garlands. They practice similar rites at the altar of the Moirai; it is in an open space in the grove" (2. 11. 3 – 4).

These are just two examples, but more can be found here!

[olympianbutch]

How often should I change khernips? I keep it in a mason jar and I usually dump it out and replace the khernips every few days. Should I keep doing that or am I able to wait like a week or so or should I change it everyday? I don't want it to get like "stale" or something

Khaire, anon; thank you so much for your question! :)

For starters, khernips refers to the water used “for washing the hands” (LSJ) before a meal or outdoor sacrifice. Contrary to popular belief, khernips require no special preparation or storage:

. . . it has come to be thought that even in household practice, khernips must be somehow specially prepared, because “in sacrifices (hieropoiiai), they used to plunge a firebrand into the khernips and sprinkle it around the altar” (Hesychius δ 155). But to my knowledge, this is only attested for sacrifices at an outdoor altar, only for Classical Athens, and quite sparsely at that (namely in Euripides, Heracles 925f and Aristophanes, Peace 959). It is only one scholium that gives the underlying logic: “They thought that by plunging fire into water, they could purify it, because fire is purificatory of everything, as Euripides writes in the Heracles: ‘The son of Alcmena was bringing the torch in his right hand, to dip it into the khernips’” (Scholium on Aristophanes, Peace 959). Apparently, this ceremony already required explanation to readers of the Athenian classics in later antiquity, because it had ceased to be observed, and was not found in earlier authorities like Homer (Regarding Khernips).

Khernips are mentioned in Homer’s Odyssey—used either before a meal or during animal sacrifice—and they aren’t specially prepared: “. . . and also that he might ask him about his father that was gone. Then a handmaid brought water for the hands in a fair pitcher of gold, and poured it over a silver basin for them to wash, and beside them drew up a polished table” (1. 136), “and Aretus came from the chamber, bringing them water for the hands in a basin embossed with flowers, and in the other hand he held barley grains in a basket; and Thrasymedes, steadfast in fight, stood by, holding in his hands a sharp axe, to fell the heifer” (3. 440), “Then a handmaid brought water for the hands in a fair pitcher of gold, and poured it over a silver basin for them to wash, and beside them drew up a polished table” (4. 52), etc.

Though the practice is venerable, you don’t actually need to make and store khernips (unless you want to, of course). Personally, I simply wash my hands in the sink before I approach the gods. 

I hope you find this answer helpful!

[olympianbutch]

Ah my bad on the translation I was always told it was funeral couch for some reason. Yeah I know Hades and Zeus weren’t always differentiated, sometimes Poseidon was also thrown in the mix depending on the culture, wasn’t Persephone even supposedly about before Hades was even a thing too? Hence her getting brought up in the Odyssey a few times by name but not really Hades himself? Also I am now realising I did mix up Juno and Hera which is very much mistake.

All very honest mistakes! (genuine)

Listen, if you're not a classicist, I really don't expect you to know these kinds of things. That's exactly why I reblogged your reblog and provided context/corrections. (:

To answer your question regarding Persephone, I think Dr. Ellie Mackin Roberts puts it best in this video! She is the world's leading expert on ancient Greek religion, her specialty being the Underworld gods.

To put it simply, Persephone is often talked about online as though she is older than Hades, but we don't know if that's necessarily true. An alarming number of people believe that she appears as a goddess in texts from the Mycenaean period (also known as the Bronze Age), but there exists no real evidence to support that claim. Texts like the Odyssey don't help us much in dating her either, since the Epic tradition doesn't always reflect the cultic tradition, and Haides the god (though he wasn't worshipped by the Greeks, very broadly speaking*) was still acknowledged as an existing divinity. His not being mentioned in the Odyssey could hint at the fact that—in cult worship—Persephone veneration took precedence over Haides worship and some remnants of the material record support this in that they show her receiving honor in Haides's place (though he will sometimes be present, he is typically enthroned behind her).

* — I'm not accounting for Haides's syncretization with Plouton because their being equated came late in the Archaic period.

[olympianbutch]

how do you choose an alias?

age old trans tradition of doing online polls