#Rat Grinder side quest WHEN

[lastofthemadones]

How do the Rat Grinders make decisions? Do they discuss plans and contingencies like a democracy or is fourdogs in charge and the rest just follow? OR is she a rogue in all sense of the word and they have to follow her around cleaning up her rash decisions? Like, I’ve been assuming that the fucking of the Bad Kids is related to the dead god thing they’ve got going on, but what if they are two different agendas and it’s Kimbleskitter going off script because she is blinded with rage for Riz (which, lol imagine getting so heated over the dork who wanted to rebrand to the photosynthekids). I am fascinated by the group dynamics of how the high five heroes became the rat grinders.

[jq37]

Just to throw my two cents on the Rat Grinder discourse: They weren't worth the Intrepid Heroes' time. We didn't get the full picture of what's going on with the Grinders until the last quarter of the season. Before that they were just this other clique that hate the main characters, so in-character why would the Bad Kids bother giving them so much attention when they've got so much of their own crap going on. Kristens quest to get Cassandra back and her presidential campaign, Gorgugs courseload, Riz's million and one plates that he's been spinning all season, Adaines financial problems, Figs curse and her doubts about what she wants to do with her life. Fabian's the only one who might have had the time, but he had to be Maximum Legend. There genuinely was no time or even an incentive on the IH's side to develop the Rat Grinders characters.

I still think it's fucked up that these teenagers got taken advantage of by adults they trusted, but we didn't learn any of that until we only had two roleplay episodes left. Too little too late to even try anything diplomatic even if they didn't spend all their time after the Last Stand in hiding.

And a thing about Ivy that no one is roasting her about and really should: An elven archer? Really? Wow, never seen that before.

Yeah totally. Like, from a meta level, I see where the players themselves could have been more curious about the Rat Grinders. There are obvious plot threads that could have been teased out there (though, in fairness to the cast, the adult manipulation aspect didn't become clear until way later in the season--the rivalry and foil aspects were more obvious). This final confrontation could look really different if they'd played that all the way out all season.

But in character? The Bad Kids really didn't have a good reason to waste time on the Rat Grinders. They came into this school year already burnt out from their Night Yorb quest and wanting a break. But they don't get that because they immediately are beset by problems they have to deal with--Kristen's god is on death's door from neglect and she's on the brink of expulsion, Riz is running himself ragged trying to boost his resume for college, Fig is having a whole ass existential crisis, Adaine is struggling with money issues she doesn't want to talk about, Gorgug is taking FOUR YEARS of school at the same time, and Fabian is multiclassing and dealing with his empty house/not having parental support (or Cathilda's support) for the first time. They are dealing with SO MUCH high stakes, personal stuff before the plot even kicks in. And, mechanics-wise, this is represented with the downtime system that means that any time they spend on the RG's is time they can't spend on something that matters more to them. IMO, not prioritizing your haters is actually pretty mature. Like, they weren't proactively using their free time to bully them or anything (except for arguably Fig). They were snippy with them when they crossed their paths and that was it. As opposed to the Rat Grinders who literally had to be told by Jace to stop antagonizing the Bad Kids (though they must have been pretty ineffectual at it because the Bad Kids hardly noticed, which I bet stung considering they were so obsessed).

And also, it's not like they didn't try at all with the Rat Grinders. Early Insight checks on Kipperlilly just got, "This is a polished steel orb of a personality" which doesn't sound very worth interacting with in a sympathetic way if at all and then the next big thing they learn is that she had hated Riz since Freshman Year and that she wants Riz and Kristen dead. And that's AFTER we saw her smile and kill her party cleric. In their position I'm not spending further time trying to empathize with this person, I have made my judgement and it's up to the Jawbones of the world to find if there's something in there to be rehabilitated.

And that's not the only case. Adaine straight up saved Ruben from disintegration during the Frosty Folk battle when she easily could have saved the spell slot, but that didn't soften him towards the Bad Kids any. Adaine also was really keen to Scry on the Rat Grinders to find out what was happening at their meetings. But, in scene at least, she was never able to do that so we never got a scene of them, huddled together, clearly unsure about the path they're on but not feeling like they can walk it back or say no to the authority figures in their lives. She didn't get anything humanizing that would cause her to rethink their position on them the way that she did with Aelwyn for instance. So why would they think they're anything but gleeful co-conspirators?

Hell, the one RG Adaine was even slightly curious about was Oisin and now we know that he was feigning interest in her which, man, can you imagine how much worse that would have felt if she'd actually taken the bait and pursued him beyond just thinking he was cute? Of course, it's possible that her interacting with him more along with some good charm rolls could have changed the narrative in some way but we can only go off of what we know to be true in canon and those facts are (1) He tried to get closer to Adaine while actively planning the downfall of her and her friends, (2) he (along with Ivy) was mean to Buddy behind his back while tricking him into a plan that would force him to go against his religious beliefs, and (3) he called his KVX related dragon ancestors to try to kill the Bad Kids and endanger the entire student body population. Three strikes, you're out. If I'm a Bad Kid I'm not super interested in whatever else is going on with him. And again, literally all of Adaine's friends (except Riz) gave her help to do an Insight check on him during their confrontation in the hallway so she was looking for something there worth engaging with, but she didn't get much.

Fig was fully doing CIA, MKUltra, Fantasy Geneva Convention violations on Ruben to try see if she could get information or flip him. I think she did it in an objectively insane way so I'm not entirely shocked that it didn't yield the exact results she was looking for. But she never found the smoking gun (or whatever the opposite of that is) in his head that would absolve him/show the Rat Grinders were being controlled and her messing with his dreams never flared his conscience enough to make him try to break free (as far as we know) which is what I assume she was going for. If I was Ruben looking for a way out but scared of the repercussions, I might go to Adaine who saved me from certain death earlier the same year and has helped saved the world 3 times with her party and their friends in high (and low) places. Maybe that's what Fig thought might happen but it didn't so from Fig's POV? Gave him a chance. Time to start blasting. And again, at that age, if I walked in to the first day of class and the first thing this random boy does is sneer at me and flaunt his musical success, I'm popping up on his Nemesis Alert at that moment. Doubly so after he tries to trick me and my friends into doing drugs so we get expelled. I'm surprised she tried at all with him.

Fabian absolutely tried to interact with Ivy--in large part for self interested reasons of course, but that doesn't change that he did it. And she came across as callous and unkind from the jump. Their final conversation before the latest episode is the one where she talks about wearing Mazey like a sweater and then says that Fabian missed his chance with her before stalking off. That's a pretty open and shut interaction. No way 17 year old me is like, "Hmm, but why is she acting so mean? Perhaps I should examine that more closely to further understand her." Nah, I've decided she sucks.

And Kristen has tried with Buddy literally up until the last moment. She rolled an Insight check on him right before the fight started and she got a 1. She got nothing from him.

Mary Ann is actually the only Rat Grinder who hasn't done anything to make a bad impression on the Bad Kids--the only thing she did was have a really good Bloodrush tryout. So no reason to hate her specifically (and, in fact, she is also the only Rat Grinder that at least half of them are positively obsessed with), but no reason to explore her further. And Kristen still tried giving her a stuffed animal and her response was that she already had that one and that she was going to give it away. What are they supposed to do with that?

Even when they tried, they didn't get information that was worth chasing when they were so busy and had to manage their free time. Gorgug didn't even slot in downtime to talk to his bio parents when they visited. Why would he spend any time on Mary Ann to figure out her deal? Maybe if they were given more explicit opportunities to interact with them in passing. If Mary Ann was shown at Bloodrush Games. If during class time Oisin tried to interact with Adaine. If Kristen ran into Buddy and Bucky talking. If any of their forays into talking to them or looking into them yielded anything actionable or that piqued their interest--they opened the door for Brennan to give them something more than once. But they never got anything that was worth investing more of their limited time into.

(And also, they didn't learn that Porter was involved until WAY into the last quarter of the episodes. Which absolutely could have changed things since, as far as they knew the RG's were working alone to raise this god which isn't crazy for them to think because Kristen literally did that last year and it was of her own free will. If they knew early that the RG's were smaller players in Porter's plot then maybe they would have been in more of a rescue mindset--especially since Fig has always mistrusted him--but that's not information they had and by the time they got it, the RG's were in deep hiding, like you said.)

And so, coming into the last few episodes, that's who the Rat Grinders are to the Bad Kids. A group of kids who they first heard about in the context of, "they famously hate you," even though they'd never interacted before. A group of kids who they already thought sucked even before they tried to kill the entire study body an hour ago. A group of kids who are trying to doom all of Elmville to eternal rage and who are willing and ready to kill them to do it.

With that context, yeah I think their actions are pretty understandable.

(Also, lmao. Yeah, I think calling Ivy basic would probably hurt her more than most things you could say to her.)

[whoblewboobear]

I will say if we get a Rat Grinders side quest I think it would be a sick full circle moment for Brennan to play Kipperlily while someone else DMs. To me the rat grinders are living through a YA thriller/horror setting and I’d love to explore something like that when we’ve seen essentially a coming of age teen comedy kinda thing with the bad kids.

[recycledraccoon]

I think my thoughts on the penultimate episode can be summoned up as disappointment over a potential we didn't get to see, and why that's ok. (This got long, 1.4k oops lol)

Am I a fan of The Rat Grinders? ABSOLUTELY. I think I started liking them even more when they were full-on confirmed villains. As fan's of the edited show, watching with a week between each episode to theorize and think, I loved seeing and theorizing over these 6 fucked up kids. We know Kipperlily prior to the second half of sophomore year, while she obviously still had her anger and jealousy over TBK's it wasn't ENTIRELY unjustified and completely out of control (although some aspects were utterly and absolutely unfounded and ridiculous). Jawbones file mentions her language being "I think Aguefort likes them more", "The school takes it easy on them", and "Half of them don't even go to classes." All of these are true things people in this world would notice. It's not until AFTER their Mountain of Chaos chaperoned trip, at the end of the year, that KLCK switches to "I hate them." The Bad Kids further briefly discuss if Jace would have asked Jawbone/looked for "students with rage disorders." I think specifically mention it being a disorder is important. Acknowledging its there, KLCK WAS trying to get help for an issue she had. They didn't talk to Jawbone about it, but did decide Jace must have given he went on that quest with TRG's. They further briefly talk about students getting randomly mad, and yes they specifically joked about Fabian shitting in class, but WE also remember the Soil club student getting so mad after having gotten that tainted soil. With the 30 Riz rolled, Jawbone's file ALSO specifically talks about Kipperlily loving her adventuring party. We know things weren't perfect, its obvious from when talking about their name change, but its still there and canon. Kipperlily loved her adventuring party. This is all just Kipperlily, mostly with our information from the first part of ep.16. It is not touching on the rest of the members, especially Ruben and his dreamscape we saw, or of his distinct 180 musical tastes POST Sophomore Year Spring Break. The implications of something happening to them during that time is pretty evident and acknowledged. So we're fans, watching a show, spending so much time thinking about not only our infamous protagonists, but also our villains. Many of us adults, getting older, thinking on the tragedy befalling kids and feeling empathy. So yeah. It's a disappointment over an unseen potential. Specifically tho? Its the potential we could have gotten on The Rat Grinder's thoughts and motivations that could have been revealed through dialogue. Dialogue that we got very little of in what could be considered a significant exchange of dialogue and not bits. I always have high narrative expectations from this show, due to its long standing history of SETTING those standards each and every season. This one episode just fell short emotionally while watching, comparatively.

AND THAT'S OK AND ABSOLUTELY NOT THE BAD KIDS/INTREPID HEROES FAULT

On the narrative side of things, The Bad Kids have had an incredibly stressful past 3 years. From day one, they have been involved in life or death stakes situations. It's always been do or die, and they've died, sometimes more than once. They've lost people and faced traumas that go often unaddressed. TBK's ENTIRE highschool experiences have been a revolving door of violence and unhinged situations. They've also always kinda been assholes, insular and more than a little mean especially to those pegged as enemies. We know them, know they have good hearts and intentions, and love and side with them constantly throughout because The Bad Kid's are our heroes. They are still teenage assholes sometimes, but that is something we love and forgive them for. The thing about this recent battle is that they are very used to the situation they are in by now. TBK's have to prioritize, move fast and hard, and get a job done so countless people don't die while something evil rises in their world. Emotions have been high for them all season, rage especially which is absolutely unsurprising on multiple fronts, and it's absolutely showing in what few dialogue exchanges we have. The Bad Kid's entered that gym for the singular purpose of stopping the situation, saving lives, and making sure something evil didn't arise to power in their fucked up world. Nothing new. They hid, already knowing where the final confrontation was going to be FORCED to happen in due to the nature of the ritual, and prepped. On point and smart of them. Then they entered the battlefield, very quickly getting to business. They know their skills, their friends and how to work together as a devastatingly effective team making heavy hits and masterfully controlling a battlefield despite the chaos. This is what The Bad Kid's Do. They got Ivy and Oisin out of combat as fast as possible, Oisin didn't even get a turn. They took out a high-damage long range attacker and the enemy wizard. They know how powerful and important Adaine is on the field, and they knew Oisin would have been the same. They crippled the enemy with the slow spell, effectively taking Mary Ann out of the running until it gets dispelled later on. Fig saw Ruben's high damage level 9 spell and dropped her ploy to get him out of combat as soon as she could. It was too dangerous to have him up, and while the hell bit was uncomfortable in the moment, it is absolutely on brand. This is what they have to do, if they want to stop Porter, who is our real main big-bad. Remove as many obstacles from the battle so more of them can focus on the fight that really matters.

This combat wasn't ever gonna go any other way, unless the dice gods decided otherwise.

This is what The Bad Kid's Do. In regards to the IH's, it is VERY important to acknowledge that while I've mentioned having high narrative expectations, this is still primarily an improve comedy show around a group of real people's DnD game. It's also a show they have a tight filming schedule for, with back to back days and long hours which we KNOW from the talk-backs leave them very tired. Like any tv show they also have a limit on how many episodes per season they can even produce. I think it was a real and genuine benefit to Sophomore year that they were doing it live, because it gave more time between sessions for the IH's to mull over information and whats been happening in-game. This is also a very well developed campaign world they haven't played in several years, which I certainly know would effect me in how I played. We still have one more episode, the Finale, and so much always happens there. I have incredible faith in Brennan as a DM and storyteller, for all that his players have a huge say in how any story he tells unfolds. There is a VERY real chance that what happens in the finale completely changes my mind on episode 19, and I will go back to rewatch with absolute glee because I know of the coming emotional catharsis in relation to The Rat Grinders. There is also a very real chance we don't get that in the way we want it, but that will be ok too. I will still love this season, rewatch it and laugh and have fun. The best part of having a fandom, is watching us take canon apart to fuel endless au's, fix-it's, character studies, ect. Taking crumbs and going wild with it is par the course, especially when something in a show has left us wanting in the moment of watching it. I think more than anything, I would be and am more upset from infighting and genuine anger directed to each other and especially towards our Intrepid Heroes. It is not wrong to be upset with an episode of a show, but it is to take those feelings out on others, be in in defense from Rat Grinder's fans or justification from Rat Grinder haters. So yes! I was disappointed with this particular episode emotionally. I still think it was funny, I think the combat was brilliant and fun to watch. I still love this show and this cast, and could never dream of being mad at them for how they played a game, and for the fun they were finding within the act of playing it as the well-known unhinged improv comedians we know and love.

I'm excited for next week, buuut I am absolutely consuming fan-content to help deal with my emotions, both the highs and lows.

[thisisnotthenerd]

i will have more thoughts when it’s not the middle of the night and i’m not coming off of a concert

but

i really enjoyed the finale. not just the bad kids being really effective in combat, but the way ankarna’s domain was incorporated, and the things they chose to do after the fact. the bad kids are in a good place right now.

the fact that it was deeply silly both aligns with and contrasts with previous fantasy high adventures. normally, the finale is utterly high stakes and feels like an insurmountable challenge—this time, the intrepid heroes and the bad kids both lean a little further into the absurd because they’re skilled enough to do so, in-game and above the table.

they resurrected most of the rat grinders and maybe aren’t friends with them, but at the very least not enemies. they struck them down in battle, but what does that mean in a world where resurrection is commonplace? i loved their final interaction with mary ann. they have the same opportunity for growth that other redeemed npcs have had—they just have to take it.

in terms of a potential senior year, there are a couple of threads to follow up on: kalina and the rise of bacarath (unlikely; the goddesses are chasing her down, they’ve already dealt with her once and doing it again is overkill. maybe a slapstick routine of catching her at some point, but not the main plot), arianwen abernant (adaine and aelwyn can handle her. she’s in sylvaire—if they need divine intercession in the domain they can access it easily), chungledown bim (he’s fabian’s nemesis; doesn’t qualify for a series villain, and honestly? the bad kids could handle him. he’s a nightmare, but there’s only so much one insane warlock and his flock of pelicans can do in initiative), and of course, arthur aguefort.

i wouldn’t be surprised if this is where they left it for a while. the time between sophomore year and junior year really allowed us (the fans) the space to enjoy these characters and find depths in them beyond what’s on screen. plus, with every season we leave the bad kids more settled in who they are and what they want, though there’s always potential for chaos.

i would personally enjoy more spyre side quests, and maybe the collision of the spyre parties in varying combinations. an easy one is having aabria as the connection point between the seven and the buccaneer buddies (simultaneously myrtle and antiope; she’s a gm—she could handle it. ooh maybe a spyre sidequest with her at the helm.)