#The Founders

[lt-kaollumn]

odo art for today

and heres just the lineart because i love nice crisp weighted lines.

rene had such a great way with body language which he leaned on during his performance as odo- i assume because his face was covered by a creepy skin-mask the whole time, limiting his facial expressions. very fun to see how he portrays this really gruff grumpy dude in his posture. he’s always skulking around with his head low and his nose high.

so i’ve finally got a good grasp on how to draw odo with stylistic flair. drawing goo is both meditatively fun and horribly tedious, 7/10.

i like his eyes. look at em. what a freak.

[neflil]

What if hornfels didn't know how to whistle?

Founders shenanigans!!

(CAMPFIRE FEST DAY #2 POST WOOOO @outerwilds-events check it out, cool stuff)

[kabut0e]

Tobiizu version

[al-hekima-madara-blog]

Naruto Live 2023 : The Founders

New promotion pictures from Naruto Spectacle ~the Path of Shinobi~ starting November 2023 in Japan.

Madara Uchiha plays this year again by Seijiro Nakamura. The new cast is Hashirama Senju by Kyo Nobuo and Tobirama Senju by Ryonosuke Kawai.

[writergeekrhw]

Mr. RHW,

In DS9 season 4 episode “To The Death,” Weyoun infects Odo with the virus (per the script notes):

Was this a punishment for Weyoun for some past transgression or did the Founders not realize (or not care) that it would be an emotionally distressing task for him?

Thanks!

Honestly, I don't think the Founders gave a damn about how doing that might make Weyoun feel. He loves them and they don't really care about him.

[buriedinsand-clangen]

Moon 100.11

(First - Prev - Next)

[vasquez-rocks]

sisko is a human but he's also a prophet. the prophets don't understand time but they also planned everything. they're gods but they're just aliens. sisko was born a chosen one but he became a chosen one through his own actions. jadzia is curzon but she's not curzon. she dies but she also survives. the founders are a collective but also individuals. time is linear but you exist here.

[lightningarmour]

Who wins in an all-out conflict

The Borg enter the Gamma Quadrant and are met with resistance from the Dominion, but is it so futile? What happens when the two greatest threats to the federation in the TNG-Era of Star Trek face off? Discussion encouraged.

[ladykissingfish]

*at a restaurant*

Izuna: You know, I’ve got to say, Senju, I’m more than a little disappointed.

Tobirama: Eh? Why? 

Izuna: *ticking off items on his fingers* You didn’t bring me flowers, when we got here you didn’t hold the door for me, or pull out my chair, the only thing you’ve talked about all afternoon is village events … I hope you’re at least picking up the check, here, or this date was a total bust.

Tobirama, turning red: D-date?! Where did you get that idea? This was a business lunch to discuss our upcoming work week!

Izuna: *sighs* Still, eh? You’re still pretending that you don’t have feelings for me? 

Izuna: *stands up* I hate to admit it but it looks like Madara was right; I can’t let myself waste anymore time with you. *puts money on the table* Here’s my share. I’m going to get back to the Hokage office to —

Tobirama: Izuna. Please, sit down.

Izuna: *slowly sits* Yes?

Tobirama: I’m sorry. I’m really sorry. But I find it hard to be with you and let my … my true feelings show. 

Tobirama, softly: All it takes is one look at that beautiful face of yours and all the thoughts go flying from my head. So I find it easier to just blather about paperwork when really, all I ever want to do is hold your hand and stare into your eyes.

Tobirama: *reaches across the table and gently takes Izuna’s hands* I’ve never given a confession before; I’m not entirely sure if this is right. But, Izuna Uchiha, I’m in love with you. I have been since that day we met when we were kids. If you feel the same, then, I think it only makes sense that we agree to take care of each other and … start a proper relationship.

Izuna, tears welling up in eyes: It’s about damn time, you idiot.

Tobirama, blushing: May I kiss you?

Izuna: Er, um, actually …

Madara: Actually, Uchiha custom dictates that you meet with the parents of your intended to “discuss your intentions” before you are allowed such physical intimacy.

Tobirama: What the hell?! Where did you come from??

Madara: Not important. What IS important is that our parents are dead, and I’m Izuna’s elder and guardian. *sits down* Now, what sort of relationship do you intend to have with my little brother? Is marriage in your future? If so, do you feel yourself capable of supporting a family? Which clan’s techniques will be prioritized when it comes to training your children? What do —

*Hashirama and Madara come into the restaurant, and Hashirana tilts his head, looking at Tobirama in confusion*

Hashirama: … why is he just staring blankly into space like that?

Izuna: I have him in a gengetsu. He’s going to be interrogated by Madara for the next few hours or so. That’ll teach him to make me wait this long for a confession.

Madara, hugging Izuna: That’s my boy!

Hashirama: 

[roguetelepaths]

There's something fundamentally wrong with the way Odo is written

(namely, I really don't think the writers see him as a person at all)

And like. I know what y'all are going to say. It's in vogue right now to avoid any insinuation that a writer must have respect for their own characters, because doing that is tantamount to implying that those characters *gasp* have feelings, or agency, or rights, and should not be Put In Situations. I will not be engaging with any of these arguments, because they're stupid. More than stupid, they're distractions from the larger point that is "when an author is writing a story in which most characters are, as a conceit of the narrative, people with rights, feelings, and agency, it's reeeeally easy to tell when those things are afforded to some characters and not others." I can't believe I have to explain this in such minute and exacting detail, but this is the "writing is just playing with dolls" website, so of course I fucking do.

So I'm going to explain what "have respect for your characters" actually means, and why the narrative doesn't respect Odo. Robert Hewitt Wolfe DNI

Having respect for your characters does not mean that nothing bad is ever allowed to happen to them. I've read extreme horror books with profound respect for their characters, and for the trauma those characters go through— it's practically a requirement for good extreme horror. Having respect for your characters means allowing those characters to react to the bad things that happen to them in a way that is true to the way a person would generally react to bad things happening to them. It means allowing their interior perspective of events to shine through. It means portraying them, within the narrative, as more than just Things That Are Acted Upon.

"But Lyta," I can already hear you say, "fictional characters aren't people! That's antishipper rhetoric!"

I said I wasn't going to engage with this argument because it's stupid, but sure, I'll engage with it if you fucking insist. Have you ever actually read something where no one in the narrative is written as a person with an interior experience of what's happening to them? What do you think that would be like? It would be pretty boring and lifeless, right?

But fictional characters aren't people so that kind of bad writing is just fine I guess.

Get your head out of your ass and stop letting your petty fanwank bullshit contaminate discussions about the craft of writing.

That being said, let's talk about Odo for a minute.

Within the conceit of the greater narrative that is DS9, Sisko is a person. Kira is a person. O'Brien and Bashir and Quark and Dax and Garak are people. Odo is not.

Has any member of the cast besides Odo been tortured to the brink of death by another cast member, only to forgive that same cast member at the end of the episode and agree to start having breakfast together?

Has any member of the cast besides Odo been asked to take part in a drill that requires them to playact their own capture and execution, and shown to have zero problems with this arrangement?

Has any member of the cast besides Odo been told, by a superior officer, anything even close to the level of callousness that is "I wish you'd never found your people", and been written to agree with that statement?

Has any member of the cast— and I'm aware that both Garak and Bashir have their own struggles with abusive parents, we're not talking about that right now— has any member of the cast besides Odo had their superiors go behind their back to contact a person they have repeatedly stated that they categorically do not consider family, a person who tortured them in a lab for years and who refuses to take any sort of real accountability for that, on their behalf? If so, has any other member of the cast had an entire episode devoted to the fact that their former torturer is Actually An Okay Guy even when he's forcing them to continue the cycle of abuse he started by repeating the same torture methods on a literal infant? I mean, credit where it's due, Odo was allowed to at least be a little upset about that, but with the way that episode goes, I'm not inclined to be overly charitable towards it.

Does any of this sound like a respectful way to write a character? Any character?

Does any of this sound like things that would happen to a character who is treated as equal to the rest of the cast?

And the thing is, it's possible to write these kind of situations respectfully. It would have been easy to write Garak's torture of Odo, and subsequent genocide attempt against the Founders while Odo was STILL IN THE LINK, as something that created a rift between the two of them. It would have been easy to follow "sometimes I wish you'd never found your people" with literally any acknowledgement on Odo's part that that's not a thing you say to anyone, no matter how fucked up their people might be. It would have been easy to show Odo demanding some kind of apology for the whole "hunt the Changeling" drill, or at least make up a reason why he can't even if he wants to. It would have been easy for Odo and Mora's relationship in The Begotten to end any other way than it did. Preferably something involving an airlock, but I'm not picky, and I'd have just settled for any narrative acknowledgement that it's not cool to use electric shocks on babies.

I hope I've been able to give some kind of rundown of what the core problem is here— that there are things that would not be okay if they happened to anyone else, that are treated as totally okay when they happen to Odo. And like, Odo was always persecuted for being different (that season 1 episode where his office is vandalized with the word "SHIFTER" comes to mind), but it really seems like once they introduced the Founders, there was an implicit decision that actually, treating Odo like a non-person was justified, because if you treated Odo like a person you'd have to treat the REST of his people like people, and you'd lose out on the neat little unsympathetic evil race the writers so badly wanted the Dominion to be.

[starfleetshrimps]

thinking about him (the relationship between the vorta and the founders) again

[shattered-stars-lonely-hearts]

Godric: So I got a tower, Rowena got a tower, Helga's got some rooms near the kitchen Godric: Where do you want your common room to be? Salazar: Dungeons Godric: Wouldn't that be cold? Salazar: You just don't understand the aesthetic

[professoruber]

Marceline and the Founders

Quick thought I've been thinking of recently (since I've been getting back into Adventure Time as of late due to Fionna & Cake) but I wonder if the humans of the Island ever discovered Marceline's connection to the Founders and what the consequences of that might be.

Marceline knew the founders as actual people rather than the deity-like figures which Island propaganda appeared to portray them as. So her insight could very much go against some very fundamental tenants of official Island history.

Of course, the very fact that the humans of the Islands have returned to Ooo could indicate they no longer take "Founder's Truth" to be the gospel in regards to running their society. Or perhaps they tried to rationalise it.

I have seen some discussion on reddit before regarding how aware the Islands are of Marceline's existence. Personally I feel she likely has a limited by important place the "mythos' of the Founders. The fact she was turned into a vampire and so parted ways with the Founders before they actually founded Founder's Island probably meant she's not as prominent as other Founders like Two Bread Tom who would've taken a much larger leadership roll in early settlement of the Island.

However, while her time with the Founders may have been relatively short (Jo, aka the girl with the bunny hat, didn't physically grow up much between the time Marceline first met her and when she fought the Vampire King), she did still appear to have grown quite close to them. And I do feel they likely would have honoured her sacrifice in fighting the Vampire King so they could escape the mainland.

I do think that others are correct though that her half-demon nature is likely unknown by modern humans, both due to details being lost in time and also because a friendly non-human (well non-complete-human) would go against the propaganda of "everything outside the Islands is out to get Humanity so we can't leave" stuff. Personally I have also had the thought she could be considered the predecessor to the Guardian, since that was basically her role in their group. Although for the purpose of propaganda, her effectiveness as a guardian may also have been played done and/or her sacrifice got the most focus.

So perhaps the humans of the islands just recall "Founder Marceline" as someone who sacrificed her life for the other Founders, a haunting example of why humanity must never leave the safety of the islands or stray from the Founder's Truth...

Of course, given the aforementioned deity-like status of the Founders, that does make me kinda curious of how the Islanders would react to learning that one of the Founders is still around. Certainly wouldn't be the only time Marceline's gets canonised by a saint by folks she helped saved....

Could also definitely be interesting to see what Marceline's on reaction might be to learning of the ultimate fate of that band of survivors she once was a part of, and also how she went down in history.

Perhaps the humans of the Islands might try seeking our Marceline for wisdom and leadership if they knew, given the importance of the "Founder's Truth" as being treated as infallible for so long, old habits die hard after all. Maybe might lead to a dynamic akin to this...

In all seriousness though; someone like Marceline, who they can trust more or less, probably would be beneficial in helping humans re-establish themselves in Ooo after being absent for so long.

[al-hekima-madara-blog]

My warring state era fellows, the result of this existential question will be declare official canon Kishi gave me a pass once and for all

[writergeekrhw]

so before it was decided that odo was a founder, who were the founders? were the founders as a category made up to give odo back story? if so, was there an alternative structure for the dominion envisaged?

Odo came first. He was always a shapeshifter. As we were figuring out the Dominion, one of the first things we thought of was "What if Odo's people ran the Dominion?"

So there was never an alt. The main consideration was how fast to reveal that the Founders were changelings.

[dreamswillbeyourwintermeat]

It's all fun and games until you become anemic and/or get an infection from cutting your hand open every other scene to prove you're not a changeling