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#The Only Plane in the Sky
deadpresidents · 1 year
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Best books you've read about 9/11/2001?
The books that come to mind immediately are:
Fall and Rise: The Story of 9/11 Mitchell Zuckoff (BOOK | KINDLE | AUDIO)
The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11 Garrett M. Graff (BOOK | KINDLE | AUDIO)
102 Minutes: The Unforgettable Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn (BOOK | KINDLE | AUDIO)
And, honestly, I think one of the best overall accounts of the events of September 11, 2001 is the government's actual report issued by the 9/11 Commission:
The 9/11 Commission Report: Final Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (BOOK | KINDLE | AUDIO) The report is available in the usual formats just like the other books, but since it's a government report, it's also in the public domain, so you can instantly download the entire thing for free.
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booksandwords · 1 year
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The Only Plane in the Sky: The Oral History of 9/11 by Garrett M. Graff
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Read time: 6 Days Rating: 4/5 Stars
The Quote: "The real heroes are the passengers on Flight 93 we were willing to sacrifice themselves" "They made the decision we didn't have to make." — Lt. Heather "Lucky" Penney and Lt. Col. Marc Sassville
Warnings: There are many obvious triggers here. There is discussion of brutal deaths and particularly in relation to United Airlines 93 the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few.
I am automatically giving this book five stars because it is all about personal experience. While author Garrett M. Graff and his oral historian colleague Jenny Pachucki (involved heavily in the research) couldn't include all the stories they included more than enough and the small edits they made for linguistic consistency made this easily readable with a reader having to think too hard to make the connections. On a more personal level I have an interest in ethnography and social anthropology, this is exactly the kind of thing that interests me. This review is mostly going to be a series of dot points of things I found noteworthy.
I kind of feel that reading this book will be coloured by the reader and their experiences, which includes undoubtedly how old and where they were during 9/11. So for that context, I'm Australian and am part of what Graff calls the 9/11 generation. I was 13 at the time I distinctly remember my mother waking me up early, saying 'they'll be talking about this at school' and showing me what was on the tv. This was not long before the tower fell. All day at school we were watching this with the counsellor on standby. Another thing I remember from that day is the jumpers. I think they impacted me more than anything else. But in my life, the part of 9/11 that has fascinated me most is United 93. Their heroic actions are beyond me.
Something that shows well how isolated the 2 (and a half) scenes were. Those at the World Trade Center were unaware of the plane at the Pentagon. Those at the Pentagon were barely cognisent of the places hitting the World Trade Center. The only people aware of all the sites was Air Traffic Control, the media and the government. But they were only aware of them in bits and pieces. United Airlines 93 is  what I referred to as the half scene. We all know they were aware of what was going on at least to a degree. Another thing that is shown in spades, as Gradd was hoping was the humanity and the equality of disaster. The Pentagon in particular proves a great equalisor with multistared Generals pitching in to help, or just being so broken in equal measure to the civillian workers.
On the  formatting of The Only Plane in the Sky. The book is written broken up into 65 chapters with two 16-page sections of colour photos. The longest chapter is I think only 15 pages, with the exception of the epilogue, that is much longer. Each new chapter is started by an italics paragraph, Garrett M. Graff telling the readers the context for the chapter and the time you join thein the scheme of things, without these I may have got lost a couple of times. Each person is introduced by name, title, location and if required connection to the person in the towers/planes/pentagon. If someone is used more that once in a chapter only their name is given again but if it is in a different chapter it will be the in full again. Honestly, you need it, there are so many players involved and it really helps to know who is who, where they've come from and how likely they were to actually get out.
To my daughter, Eliza, and to all the children affected by 9/11. I hope this book helps you understand the world in which you live. — This is the dedication and I really like it. I wonder how old Eliza is.
I appreciate the maps provided. As an Australian, this level of micro-geography is not something I know. With the timing on the first map and the names of the companies located on the isolated floors, it can be a critical resource for those trying to follow along.
3 years, over 500 stories, 17 years of work by others. The amount of information Graff and Pachucki waded through in researching this astounds me as a librarian. So much of it was possibly barely organised or organised by boutique systems.
 Frank Culbertson has a truly unique perspective on the events of 9/11 he was the only American off planet, on the Internation Space Station on the day. His perspective wasn't the first chronologically but it was definitely the most exclusive and a brilliant choice for the first entry in the book. He was able to clearly see the loss of the plane traffic to the point where there was only one visible contrail in the sky (Air Force One) and he could see the massive debris field from the towers falling.
The artists in residence, Monika Bravo and Vanessa Lawrence, and their final interpretations of the towers, both made the day before, are beautiful.
8:00 am is interesting for the sliding doors moments. The forgotten book. Ironing a shirt. Speaking to a friend. The forgotten ID. These are the people that survived. Also, Monica O'Leary by happenstance was fired from her job at Cantor Fitzgerald at 2:00 the previous day. It's on the 105th floor in the North Tower.
Something I didn't know... United Airlines 175 was at one point watching AA11 before being hijacked themselves. They, like air traffic control, heard Atta's message to stay in your seats. There are some voice recordings from both flights. The most painful is flight attendant Madeline "Amy" Sweeny, a flight attendant on American Airlines 11... "It is a rapid descent. Something is wrong. I don't think the captain is in control, I see water. I see buildings. We're flying low. We're flying very, very low. Oh my God. We're flying way too low."
 "Everybody's heard plane engines, except very few people have heard the sound of plane engines when they're at full strength, full force, flying up in the sky. That is a horrifying sound. I still remember it very clearly—the sound of the engines flying at full force toward the World Trade Center." — Bruno Dellinger, principal Quint Amasis North America, North Tower, 47th floor
Christine Hanson was the youngest victim of September 11th at two and a half. She was a passenger on United Flight 175 with her parents Peter and Sue Kim.
 "They came back on and said, "NORAD took control of all the airspace in the country. Proceed directly to Manhattan and set up Combat Air Patrol." I said, " OK, got that." It was a very surreal experience—flying over Central Park at 1,000 feet and 500 knots, trying to identify possible targets. That was just wrong. You should never be doing this over Manhattan." — Lt. Col. Tim Duffy, F-15 pilot, Otis Air Force Base, Cape Cod, Massachusetts. Tim Duffy is one of the recurring pilots in the book. (also omg the multiple lines required for names when we get to the military)
It is so useful know where the planes hit. I didn't know the differences between their impacts. United Airlines 175 hit the sky lobby which was always going to be a big issue and the way in which it hit explains perfectly why it collapsed first. AA11 hit square on but higher up.
I adore Louise Buzzelli, amazing woman. Seven and a half months pregnant and feisty as hell. Wife of Pasquale Buzzelli an engineer on the 64th floor of the North Tower.
"That number doesn't include numerous fire companies, firefighters, EMTs and paramedics who continued to self-dispatch, and because the attacks took place around the time of the standard 9:00 a.m. shift change, many of the trucks were "riding heavy," that is, carrying firefighters from both the night and day tours" — If there is any even muted silver lining to 9/11 it is this. The timing. The "riding heavy".
The number of people with duel connections is great as in I'm glad they were included, not great they existed. Both a personal connection to someone on the flight or in one of the three buildings struck and a job that requires them to keep calm and carry on.
I never fully understood the full confusion around United Airlines 93. It was delayed in its departure, which might kinda explain some of the delays in the hijacking and their failure to hit their target. But also the heroism of the passengers, the reason they knew what was going on and knew they acted to save others. The Capitol has always been my guess for the target for those specific terrorists. It is also a widely suspected target by professionals.
Deena and Tom Burnett are amazing to me. She is so strong. Her strength might be one of the reasons he became one of the leaders of the retaking of United 93.
"As I hit Vesey between Church and Broadway, the first thing that struck me was the amount of women's shoes. I couldn't understand it. I realized women had run out of their shoes—the high heels and what have you. There were women's shoes all over." — James Luongo, inspector, NYPD. If someone had thought to photograph it this would likely have become one of the lasting images of the day. That idea of running for your life so much that comfort no longer matters because there would have been a lot of debris on the ground at the time.
 All the freaking loyalty and comradery... it might be some of why whole engines were wiped out.
Herb and Todd Ouida (World Trade Centers Association, North Tower, 77th floor and Cantor Fitzgerald, North Tower, 105th floor respectively) broke my heart. A father and son pair. One survived and one did not. I struggled through their story.
Straight after Herb and Todd we meet Stanley Pramnath and Brian Clark (Fuji Bank, South Tower, 81st floor and executive vice president, EuroBrokers, South Tower, [83rd floor] respectively) they gave me smiles again. They are a reminder of the good in humanity, everyday people standing together and helping others at risk to themselves.
Rick Rescorla (vice president of security, Morgan Stanley, South Tower, 59-74 floors) is a legend. He evacuated his people early, going against the Port Authority's announcement, saving potentially hundreds of lives but losing his life in the process. Rick Rescorla was one of only 11 out of 2,700 people working at Morgan Stanley in the South Tower who died. 
The story of Harry Ramos and Victor Wald (May Davis Group, North Tower, 87th floor and Avalon Partners, [North Tower, 84th floor] respectively) was one I wish we knew more of. But it did get me thinking about the placement of names on the memorial after the families of Ramos and Wald requested they be placed together. There is an article on it by Linda Tischler from 2011 for anyone else interested.
While the first official casualty is Father Mychal Judge one of the first firemen killed is Danny Suhr. He didn't get into the towers, he died in the forecourt after being struck by a jumper. I would suspect (though it is not specified) that he wasn't the only one to die in such a way. I have thoughts on the jumpers I go into later.
"A pop and then a sift—like taking a bag of sugar and pouring it into a container." — Joe Massian, technology consultant, Port Authority, North Tower, 70th floor. All the descriptions of the towers collapsing are varied but paint a pretty vivid soundscape of the moment.
While I have much more interest in the day-to-day people in this book, the people whose names will ultimately be lost to history, there are many people from the government providing input as well. It is just as interesting to see them. I have just got a greater interest in the everyday man.
"We would be ramming the aircraft. We didn't have weapons on board to shoot the airplane down. Both Sass and I had 105 bullets, lead-nosed. As we were putting on our flight gear in the life support shop, Sass looked at me and said, "I'll ram the cockpit." I made the decision I would take out the tail off the aircraft." — Lt. Heather "Lucky" Penney, F-16 pilot, D.C. Air National Guard. Essentially Lucky and Sass (Lt. Col. Marc Sassville, F-16 pilot, U.S. Air Force) were on a kamikaze run if necessary to take down United Airlines 93. This I never knew. Sass and Lucky are a whole other level of dedicated, I was stunned reading their story.
The Fourth Crash, the chapter that goes through the downing of United Airlines 93, is A LOT. If you have an interest in this flight I recommend United 93. It's heavy going but worth it.
The firemen took his body. Because they respected and loved him so much, they didn't want to leave it in the street. They quickly carried it into St. Peter's Church. They went up the center aisle, and they put the body in front of the alter. They covered it with a sheet. On the sheet, they placed his stole and his fire badge. — Friar Michael Duffy. This is in reference to Father Mychal Judge and the way he was treated after his death. He is for me impressive and unexpected. I was almost in tears by the end of it, there are two beautiful sections.
Wheelchair-bound John Abruzzo (staff accountant, Port Authority, North Tower, 69th floor) was lucky in a way.  Without the bomb in 1993, he would have been dead. It took them six hours to evacuate in 1993 after that the Port Authority purchased evacuation chairs. With the evaluation chair and the help of 10 people he got out in an hour and a half. Getting out right before the North Tower collapsed.
Everyone has their own unsung heroes from 9/11. Security guards (Richard Wichen and Ralph Blasi), the civilian and uniformed personnel that work at the Pentagon (James Schwartz), the passengers of United Airlines (Heather Penny and Marc Sassville), the ship captains (Rick Schoenlank and James Parese).
"I recalled the Secretary [Donald] Rumsfeld had been in the navy. He was like the captain going down with the ship—he was going to make sure everything was OK before he went back." — Aubrey Davis, officer, Protective Service Unit, Defence Protective Service, Pentagon. Donald Rumsfeld has the respect of all under his command for his unwillingness to leave the scene. But I really like this take keeping his naval background in mind.
"I was running and running and running. I came up to a fireman who was also running, a tall skinny guy. I looked over and I saw that it said "Chaplin" on the helmet. It was a Fire Department Chaplin John Delendick, from St. Michael's Church in Brooklyn. I was running with him, and I said to him, "Are you a priest?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "Are you a Catholic priest?" He said, "Yeah." "How about absolution?" & "This police officer came up next to me, and said, "Father can you hear my confession?" I told him, "This is an act of war, so I'm going to give everyone general absolution," which I did. General absolution in the Catholic Church is forgiving all at the same time." — James Luongo, inspector, NYPD and Monsignor John Delendick, chaplain, FDNY. I include this because I find it intriguing to see what is remembered by people. In a day when so much happened, when so much was seen both of these two remember this conversion. I'm unsurprised Luongo remembers it, though I am surprised about Monsignor Delendick.
Some of the strongest stories in this oral history are from women. Those women who were left at home wondering if their partner was alive or dead. Wondering if they got out, wondering if they stayed to help others and knowing that their loved ones ran into the towers. It feels like so many of these women were pregnant at the time.
We went over by Kennedy and turned a plane away that was over there. I was going to check out the North Tower and see how it was doing. I flew by. I was looking straight at it; I realized it was exploding right before my eyes. It was the sicked feeling I've ever had. — Lt. Col. Tim Duffy. This would possibly be the most distressing view of the tower falling. That feeling of helplessness and knowing that so many people will be dying in those buildings
One of the two long long-running story arcs (if you can call them that) is of Jean and Dan Porter (Bank of America, North Tower, 81st floor and firefighter, Ladder 10, FDNY respectively). Dan was as close to panicked/ frantic in his search for Jean as any spouse would be. The biggest difference is he was boots on the ground and was able to search. Equally, Jean knew Dan would be looking for her and on the ground but couldn't find him. One of the best-known pictures from 9/11, taken by Matt Moyer, is of Dan on a bench when he has resigned himself to Jean being dead. The slow reveal of their story is just lovely. Their finding each other again is damn near Hollywood.
The editorial comments added by Garrett M. Graff are important for context and potential understanding. Especially the numbers and United Airlines 93 confusion, as well as some important death and comments like the names on the memorial. As September 11 2001 gets further in the past that information will be key for contextual knowledge.
"For those at the tip of Lower Manhattan, the only viable evacuating route turned out to be the water. A makeshift. unorganized armada of more than 130 ferries, pleasure yachts, sightseeing vessels, Coast Guard and police vessels, fire boats, and tugboats gathered—many without being asked—at Battery Park and nearby piers. By the end of the day, they had collectively evacuated somewhere between 300,000 and 500,00 people from Manhattan—a maritime rescue larger than the World War II evacuation from Dunkirk." — Garrett M. Graff. I'm not sure I'd ever known about the armada or really given much thought about how the survivors got off Lower Manhattan. It is logical but this is so much more micro than anything I've read. It is yet another moment of people coming together though, just getting it done.
 Lt. Terri Tobin (public information officer, NYPD) is just one example of someone getting something done that would be otherwise unthinkable outside a warzone (though this was a warzone sooo...). Terri had two large shards of glass pulled out of her back, on a rocking boat without anesthetic. Lady after my own heart though, she can still recognise a cute guy when she sees one.
I looked at the water and saw another ferryboat. In my book Jersey was currently a helluva lot safer than crossing any bridge in Brooklyn. We rounded up whoever wanted to go with us and muscled over to the boat. All we had to do was yell, "We've got students," and the adults parted like the Red Sea. — Heather Ordover, English teacher, HSLPS [High School for Leadership and Public Service] I really like the respect given to the kids. It feels like people looked at the kids and thought they don't need to see any more of this carnage. Also those poor parents, especially of the HSLPS students, HSLPS is located only a couple of blocks from the towers. The kids stayed in small groups even if they got separated but the amount of worry existing... on both sides. Total respect for all involved though.
I need to add just a shout-out to the unexpected power couple of the book Rep. Martin Frost ((D-Texas), chair, House Democratic Caucus) and his wife of the time Major General Kathryn Frost. Major General Frost died in 2006 of cancer, Rep. Martin Frost's 2nd wife Jo Ellen is just as impressive.
It was completely amazing, the feeling of support, of unity. I felt so proud that my community, the Hispanic community, were calling. Suddenly the phones were ringing and saying, "This is the country that we chose to come to. Nobody will destroy our country," They would say, "I'm not legal in the United State. Do you think they will accept me to do volunteer work?" — Ilena Mayorga, management specialist, Volunteer Arlington. It's quotes like this and moments like this that are fantastic as a reminder of what al-Qaeda attacks managed to do. Bring people to together against a common enemy, issue.
Among all the people flying around with the President on September 11th that we get to meet Ellen Eckert (stenographer, White House) is my favourite. Ellen feels the most like the everyman. There are moments when she shows her fear that I appreciate.
There is a chapter called The 9/11 Generation. These are stories from children aged 0-college, I didn't know how useful I would find this perspective, it is a fantastic inclusion. I fit in this generation, we are the ones that need the book the most in some ways. Some of us were alive and knew what we were seeing was monumental but not why. We're adults now, and some of us are still trying to understand the gravity of the way it changed us and the world. Even from across the ocean we became a generation shaped by this and gun violence.
I was a pretty shy and quiet child, but I had made my first friend on my own. After that day, my friend come over and said, "We can't be friends anymore, Hiba. My mom said until this is over, we can't be friends anymore. — Hiba Elaasar, Louisiana, age 7. I know there was so much fear involved around this, especially from adults. But this is downright racist and these poor kids who lost those friendships, and friendship opportunities because of the actions of a few.
I didn't really understand the severity of its couple of buildings a few states away had been hit by planes. I'm not sure I had ever heard the word "terrorism" before. Once I got home I turned on the TV to try and figure out what was going on. I remember scrolling through more than 100 channels, seeing the same images of the Twin Towers falling, over and over. I counted 31 TV channels all airing live coverage of 9/11. When I saw that MTV and VH1 were also airing it, that's when I realized how big a deal it was and started to get scared. It was suddenly not an adult problem, but something that I was supposed to be attention to too. — Kat Cosgrove, New Hampshire, age 13. Ms Cosgrove is the same age as me. The idea of this is not just an adult problem is something that I remember well. That fear with no one to turn to as well. Except it was early in the am here.
I called my friend Andy over in the freshman boys' dorm. He very sleepily answered. In the calmest voice possible, I told him to turn on the TV and call me back. As we watched, it happened again [a plane flew into the second tower]. Almost immediately my phone rang. It was Andy, calling to tell me he saw it, and that he was "signing up" I was stunned, at first not knowing what he meant. He kept talking, telling me that he had to call his mom, and that he'd stay and finish up his freshman year, but he was signing up because that's what you do. Andy did sign up. He joined the National Guard that year. — Daphne Leigh, Ripon College, Wisconsin. Okay, so this is a pain quote. Andy would not have been the only college-age student to sign up for the sake of his country forsaking his education. But in multiple reviews I have mentioned guys in my year level enlisting, 9/11 was the originating reason for them too. We had an Andrew I read this, thought of him and got terribly emotional.
"Give me all the bad news now you want. This is the worst day of my life.” — Bill Spade, firefighter, Rescue 5, FDNY. Bill Spade has one of the worst double blows among these oral histories. He was the only one of FDNY Rescue 5 to survive. His uncle, Joe Driscoll (listed as Patrick Joseph Driscoll) was a passenger on United Airlines 93. This was said to his wife after finding out all the people he saw only that morning were missing and his uncle was certainly dead.
For a week, we only had text on paper and each of us in the submarine hoped it wasn't real. Finally seeing the footage for the first time is a feeling none of us can forget. — Matt Dooley, crewman, USS Norfolk. I do appreciate the choice to include oral histories from Dooley and Capt. James "Sandy" Winnefeld Jr., commander, USS Enterprise. These are another group of people we don't think about. Soldiers that were isolated and couldn't really get news for days because of their orders. And the nodes that were on their way home to be turned around back into what was clearly going to be a conflict.
He's like, "Hurry up! Hurry! You've got to get to him. He's going to die if you don't get to him." I said, "Will, we got to do our job. We got to get you out, then we'll get him out." we're scratching away, scratching away, and then we hear Sergeant McLoughlin's voice, and he goes, "Hey, how are you guys doing?" I'm like, "Who's that?" Will's like, "That's my partner," like, You idiots. What do you think I've been talking about? So we're like "We thought he was your partner." He said. "No, that's Dominick. He's dead" I'm like, Oh, my God! Now we have another rescue that we have to do.</i> — Scott Strauss, officer, Emergency Service Unit, Truck 1, NYPD. The other ongoing arc we follow is William Jimeno, John McLoughlin (officer, Port Authority Police Department and Sargent, Port Authority Police Department respectively) and their partners they survive but only just. They were found late on Tuesday night by U.S. Marines, Jason Thomas and Dave Karnes. Honestly, their being found and coming out is a moment and a half. But it's made nearly comical by quote I included. I like Will he's feisty and young.
It was fascinating to see what happened when people went home, and what their pressure valve was. For some of them, they broke because of something else entirely. Emotional overload. Pasquale Buzzelli has possibly the most amusing last moment. Such an Italian thing.
I want to address the 9/11 jumpers. There is a short section on them here, they cannot be forgotten and to ignore them is to erase history. The way that section is introduced is "Amid the catastrophe at the World Trade Center, no sight left as powerful an impression on the rescuers, officials and evacuees as the developing tragedy of the victims—trapped without escape on the Towers' upper floors, caught amid rising, unbearable temperatures and deadly smoke—who fell or chose to jump.". The section is treated with absolute respect and no one mentions suicide. I have thoughts about the jumpers. I subscribe to The Order of the Good Death's death-positive theory of the incident. “The jumpers were choosing their least worst death, the best of two horrendous options and reclaiming their agency.” (From Death in the Afternoon podcast episode The Least Worst Death.) The final lines of the chapter from Sunny Mindel (communication director for the mayor of the City of New York, Rudy Giuliani) explains why so many images exist of these people and in some ways mirror my own thoughts. "I was so rivited to this moment of people making this decision to jump that my gut instinct was: This is an invasion of the most intimate moment ever. My hand started to go up to block the lenses. But then I thought,  No, this has got to be recorded for history. I just stood there.".
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wrentholomew · 18 days
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Pahkitew Island True Ending - Scuba Bear Wins
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bizlybebo · 2 months
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ok going back to sleep but look at my clouds boy
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idsb · 1 year
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People who keep the windows shades shut on planes are critically insane lol
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coralreeferband · 14 days
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Ahh my least favorite day on the internet: edgelords post about 9/11
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innko · 7 months
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the flight was gorgeous !!
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gotham-response · 1 year
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pikslasrce · 1 month
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oh wow i really missed having natural disaster dreams 🤩🤩🤩🤩
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koreanchimchim-blog · 2 years
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I hate myself for this 😭😭
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Yes it could be like this....but....
It could also be like,
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Or like,
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Why sore when the world could be a happy 🌈
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radi0activec0smos · 2 years
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Tfw your overthinking husband is exhausted and n e r v o u s and just really needs some company. No I will never shut up about them.
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I promise I can draw them in happier moods, but I must also live up to my title as an emotional turmoil creator, whether the turmoil ranges from subtle to extreme /hj
In general I see Wounded as the type to try and bottle up any negative feelings they tend to have and any memories that resurface, which can lead to them seeming spaced out and unresponsive while they fidget just to try and get their mind off it. Their voice tends to be surprisingly quiet whenever they’re in this sort of state. Company from a trusted person typically helps.
(Yes I’m still stuck on the fact that their bio says “Refuses to give advice anymore, so that people won’t rely on it” - Wounded, how many things do you blame yourself for and no I dont just mean that one florist’s death from your memory. I am going to hug you. That is a threat.)
Lighting was a pain with this piece but GOD was doing the shinies on Wounded’s... well, wounds, really satisfying. Glowy.
Also yes that’s meant to be them with the mask off, I imagine that the thing we see on the mask is an actual wound that they endured, it’s just that it looks even less clean-cut underneath cuz, like. Skin tearing.
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lesbianlotties · 1 year
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can someone explain to me why the fuck did i think it would be a good idea to rewatch this fucking show and fucking episode 108 and the fucking scene where laura lee
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skydaemon · 1 year
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On my flight I was sat next to a Chassidic Orthodox family of six (in literally the only spare seat in the row) and it made me feel so happy
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lesbians
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fletcher-bit-me · 1 year
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No, why would I have my comfort musical be *literally any fiction based in the US* when I can have one that is based on the true story of a small community in Canada coming together to house over 7,000 people from around the world after a bunch of terrorist attacks?
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lwieserce · 2 years
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i need a 2h long video essay on the topic of 'eimiko - queerbait or not?' i think the answer is yes but i want someone to dissect it
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