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delfinamaggiousa · 4 years

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Brown-Forman Master Blender Rachel Barrie on Scotch and Sherry Casks: ‘A Match Made in Heaven’

Airing between regular episodes of the VinePair Podcast, “Next Round” explores the ideas and innovations that are helping drinks businesses adapt in a time of unprecedented change. As the coronavirus crisis continues and new challenges arise, VP Pro is in your corner, supporting the drinks community for all the rounds to come. If you have a story or perspective to share, email us at [email protected].

In this “Next Round,” VinePair co-founder and CEO Adam Teeter talks to Brown-Forman’s master blender of Scotch whiskies, Dr. Rachel Barrie, about her nearly three decade-long career in whiskey — and how it has changed as a result of the ongoing pandemic.

The Edinburgh-based master blender works with three Scotch producers: GlenDronach, BenRiach, and Glenglassaugh. Barrie describes herself as a “custodian of spirit quality” and calls her nose her “greatest asset.” When it comes to her role as a master distiller, Barrie says “it’s probably the most varied job in the whole industry, because you have to know everything.” Indeed, Barrie does everything from researching flavor profiles, to bringing these whiskies to new audiences.

When she began working with Brown-Forman three and a half years ago, her job largely consisted of analyzing casks — traveling to Spain and the U.S. for sherry and bourbon casks, respectively. Now, although she can’t travel due to Covid-19 restrictions, Barrie explains that virtual tastings are giving her the ability to reach an even larger audience all across the globe.

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Adam: From Brooklyn, New York, I’m Adam Teeter. And this is a VinePair Podcast conversation. We’re bringing you these conversations in between our regular podcast episodes in order to examine how we’re moving forward as a drinks business during the Covid-19 crisis. Today, I’m talking with Dr. Rachel Barrie, master blender of Scotch whiskies for Brown-Forman. Dr. Barrie, thank you so much for joining me, or can I call you Rachel?

Rachel: Of course, please call me Rachel.

A: It’s funny. My father and my brother both have PhDs, and so I’m so used to calling people “doctor” that it was like a default. It’s much easier to call you Rachel, so thank you.

R: That’s absolutely fine. Thank you very much for asking.

A: Where do we find you today?

R: Oh, I’m, I’m at home in Edinburgh, Scotland. Which isn’t far from our head office in Edinburgh.

A: How are things in Edinburgh right now?

R: Fine. We are social distancing, and we have all the good practices in place. And my family and everyone at work is fit and healthy.

A: Edinburgh is such an amazing cocktail city. Are bars reopening. Are they open? And what does that look like?

R: Yeah. Bars are open, but they have to close by 10:00 p.m.

A: OK.

R: So we have that kind of curfew — the Covid curfew — by 10:00 p.m. at the moment. But they are opening.

A: Tell us a little bit about your role at Brown-Forman and the whiskies that you work on.

R: I joined three and a half years ago. My career spawns nearly 29 years in whisky, but I came to Brown-Forman three and a half years ago, really to bring the whiskies to life, to create new portfolios, to develop the woods strategies for maturation, and to really bring the whiskies to new consumers.

A: That all sounds really interesting. Can you tell me a little bit about what you mean when you say “bring the whiskies to life” or “work on the wood maturation?” I think a lot of people aren’t familiar with the role of a master blender. Also you work at single malt distilleries, but I think we’re used to master blenders when it comes to blended Scotch. If you could explain a little bit about what you do on a day-to-day basis that will be super interesting.

R: It’s extremely varied. It’s probably the most varied job in the whole industry, because you have to know everything. Obviously, I’ve done a lot of research into flavor over the past 29 years, and you really have to know as much as possible — I’m still learning — but right from the barley in the field, right through to the bottle going down the line, and right into the markets. So I have a very varied job. And three and a half years ago when I started, it was analyzing thousands of casks and nosing. It’s mostly sensory. The master blender role is very much about the world of flavor, about creating flavor, about every step in the process that nurtures that flavor that then is delivered to the consumer, consistently. I’m really a custodian of spirit quality in many ways. And my nose is my greatest asset. In addition to that, it’s deciding which wood the spirit is going to go into. So all of a sudden Scotch industry, we can use so many different woods, really a world of flavor. Everything from U.S. bourbon casks, to sherry casks, to Marsala casks, to red wine casks, whatever. I get to travel the world, or have done, previously, just to source many different types of casks to enrich the flavor of the single malts.

A: Amazing. Do you have an insurance policy on your nose?

R: I have life insurance, not specifically on my nose. But maybe I should.

A: Because all the athletes have insurance policies on their shooting arm or their throwing arm or whatever. So, I had to ask. As you said, you basically take the liquid from the point of distillation through to bottling, but even the sourcing of the grains, et cetera. How has that changed for you, or what adaptations have you had to make because of Covid?

R: It really kind of hit us in March. Into April, there was a pause while, I think, the whole world kind of took stock of what was happening, and just paused in terms of the operation. And then we started up with lots of practices in place. Social distancing, the visitor centers closed, production started up again after a few weeks of not being able to distill, because in a distillery people are distanced. A distillman is a far distance from a masheman, and the same goes for the warehousemen, so we were able to start up again, just at a slower pace. And then in the bottling area, it’s social distancing, and it was a slower pace. But we’ve still been able to continue producing with all the PPE and the protective gear.

A: You mentioned that a lot of your job is also sourcing the casks that you’ve finished the single malt in. Has that impacted your job at all? Because obviously, you were saying that you traveled a good bit. Or do you have places where you source the casks from now that trust, and you know what you’re getting from a lot of those places? Is there not as much of a need to travel as maybe you would have in the beginning, three and a half years ago when you first started?

R: Yeah. I’ve been looking at wood and sourcing oak for nearly three decades. I know most of the key players and have those relationships, so I can order casks and whatnot from home, I have those relationships. We just need to agree on the quality, the specification, and get them on a container and a ship to Scotland, and then filled. So it is continuing. Although, I must admit I do like my trips to Louisville, to Jack Daniel’s, and to Woodford Reserve. And so I’ve not been for a year. And also to Jerez, Seville, in Spain, another one of my favorite places. In a normal year, I would tend to go there twice a year. I’m hoping for next year.

A: I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Jerez and Spain, in particular. The GlenDronach is very much known for its sherry cask finishing. Correct?

R: Correct. GlenDronach goes right back to 1826 when the distillery was founded by James Allardice. It was first in sherry casks because that’s what was brought into the United Kingdom from Spain as shipping casks, and sherry was bottled in the U.K. And then the casks went for GlenDronach.

GlenDronach, I spend a lot of my time, a huge amount of my time on the quality of the sherry casks. We specify Spanish oak, which is very, very rare, very expensive. The casks are toasted, they’re filled with sherry. Oloroso and Pedro Ximenez are the ones I celebrate for GlenDronach — especially the Pedro Ximenez, the king of sherrys. It just married so beautifully with our robust Highland style to give us a real, full-bodied single malt. It’s also elegant and fruity.

A: When the casks come in they’re not drained at all? I mean, they’ve been drained of the sherry, obviously, but there’s probably still residual sherry in the cask, correct?

R: Oh, it just goes into the stave. There’s an interaction between the wood and the sherry, and the sherry within the stave is not actually sherry. It’s sherry that’s reactive with the wood. So it’s a way of seasoning the wood for us, as well.

A: Amazing. Another whiskey professional I talked to recently, and I’m curious for your thoughts because you deal so much with sherry, had basically said that at this point in time, the whiskey industry is basically what’s keeping the sherry industry afloat. A lot of the sherry industry is basically just filling casks with sherry in order to supply the massive demand of sherry casks amongst the whiskey industry. Is that something that you’ve seen as well throughout your career? Is that something that you think is actually true?

R: Well, I mean, the sherry casks today are the best I’ve ever seen them. The quality is just unbelievable. It takes me back nearly 30 years to the sherry casks in the early 1990s. They’ve really mastered the art in Jerez of how to meet the perfect sherry cask for Scotch maturation. It’s incredible. Back in the day, it was the shipping casks that came into the U.K. that were used for Scotch, and that practice stopped in 1986. The industry had to work together and work with the sherry producers in Jerez to create the perfect sherry casks. A lot of research.

A: If I understand you correctly, it seems like a lot of sherry producers are actually producing sherry with the understanding that the cask will be used for Scotch down the road? Understanding from the moment that they even get that cask for their own use first, that there will be a secondary use. And so they’re working with you even before they fill that cask with sherry?

R: Absolutely. And the thing is that is the same as back in the day. Although the sherry industry used to reuse their casks a lot. And they shipped to the United Kingdom in shipping casks, which were actually fresh oak casks. And that’s what then went on to be sold into the industry. It’s not too dissimilar from then in many, many ways.

A: A lot of the maturation in sherry, as you noted, came just from the fact that that’s the casks that were available, that’s what was shipping to the U.K. But what is it about sherry casks that you think are so special when it comes to Scotch maturation?

R: I mean, for me, we’ve got very defined specifications, and not every sherry cask is the same, it can be different oak. We were very specific in specifying Spanish oak because it is a hybrid that gives us a duality of character, and that is so important. They’re also very thick staves, solid structure, and they tend to be made in larger sizes, as well. Around 500 liters in capacity. So you’ve got these different dynamics going on and, and you’ve got the sherry, and, partly because of the reactions with the sherry with the wood, it means that there’s lots of the wood left. but the acidity of the sherry has also broken down that wood, as well. There’s loads of chemistry going on, and it’s a very solid cask. It tends to give you a very long maturation. The casks last a long time, so we could fill them a couple of times. We also keep more of the angel share inside of the cask — which is quite nice — with the bigger size of casks.

A: So you’re losing less whisky.

R: In addition to that, with GlenDronach, I would say we probably buy the most Pedro Ximenez casks in the industry. That style is just perfect for GlenDronach. Not all sherry casks are the same. Pedro Ximenez gives you this lovely sweetness, with elegance and fruit, which is perfect for GlenDronach. It means Valley of the Brambles, and brambles are dark fruit berries, so you can imagine how that would work.

A: I don’t want to spend all of our time talking about GlenDronach, you also do work with two other distilleries. One of the distilleries is just about to re-release or re-package all of its Scotch, right? BenRiach. Can you tell me a little bit about that and what Scotch is that you’re releasing, and also what that’s been like to think about releasing new Scotches during this time that we’re all going through?

R: When I started at BenRiach three and a half years ago, the moment I started, it was like being a child in the sweets shop because the distillery has the most variety. The name comes from Ben, little hill, and Riach, which means diversity in terms of the type of farming that was done. It’s on a hill that was to the Riach farm. I love this because I’ve worked in the industry for many years and going to BenRiach was like every experience I’ve ever had in one distillery, because BenRiach makes peated malt, which is basically sweet and smoky. It also makes a classic orchard-fruit-laden style, and triple-distilled. So we’ve got these different styles and then also it’s got the most eclectic range of casks in Scotland. This is part of the explorer in me, sourcing casks from Marsala, to rum, to bourbon, to sherry, to red wine, virgin oak all over the world. And then what I got to do was basically to paint with flavor and create the new range. That was a really exciting journey in the past few years. And I’ve just been talking about it really for the past few weeks.

A: In terms of launching the new range, I would assume as we’ve discussed earlier, you would be traveling? You probably would go to a few key markets, talk to the press, like myself, or you would talk to bartenders, beverage directors, et cetera. Now you’re not doing that. Do you find that a lot of this is now mostly on Zoom and things like that in which you’re trying to talk to as many people as possible? And how is that different for you?

R: Yeah, initially I felt really strange, and it feels a bit artificial. However, I’m absolutely loving it, because I’m getting to speak to probably thousands of people from around the world that there’s no way I would reach in such a short span of time. One day I could be speaking to people in Singapore or in Taiwan, the next day it could be the U.S., and with people from all over the U.S., from the West and East Coast. All over, as long as we get the timing right. It could be all around Europe as well. I don’t need to waste time getting on a plane, I can just be in front of people and, as long as they’ve got the whisky as well, we’re sharing that experience together, and I get to take them to the range. I’ve actually reached more people through not traveling.

A: That’s amazing. There are some positives coming out of this in which we are realizing that there’s other ways in which we can interact and we can taste liquid and get to have conversations with people that actually make the liquid that don’t mean us having to travel to where the liquids are made. Or you have to travel to where we are in order for us to connect and really get to know what goes into making what’s in our glass. Which is really, really cool. We’ve always had this technology available to us, we just haven’t taken advantage of it the way that we have now and realize, “Oh, yeah, this was always here and we probably should use it more.”

R: Absolutely. And to connect with more people, I’m almost more culturally aware because I’m speaking to more people than from all over. It’s fantastic. And then getting their feedback as well when they’re tasting it, and what they enjoy, I’m getting that all in quite a short period of time. It’s very enriching for me to get that feedback.

A: That makes a lot of sense. So I have a question for you that I’d be remiss if I didn’t ask, because you are the master blender at a Scotch portfolio that is owned by one of the most well-known bourbon companies in the world. And you’ve been in the business for 27 years, which is amazing. So I imagine that you’ve seen the taste profiles, especially with the American consumers, change. And when you started in the industry, bourbon was not what it is now in the U.S. — it was not this behemoth that everyone was obsessed with. And while I think we like to believe and romanticize that everything that’s created isn’t influenced by other liquids — that it’s just the artistry of the people making it — we have to admit that there is influence. My question for you is, how have you seen this bourbon boom influence the world of Scotch in the past 10 years? And maybe not in the distilleries you work with specifically, but with other ones. I’ve noticed a lot of distilleries now coming out and being very clear “these are bourbon-cask- finished Scotches” and really trying to go after the bourbon drinker. How has that impacted your day-to-day in terms of the whiskies you’re creating, or has it not at all?

R: We are particularly lucky in being part of Brown-Forman, because it means we have access to all these great Jack Daniel’s, Woodford Reserve, Old Forester casks, and also the virgin oak, because Brown-Forman has got its own pepperidge, so the same casks actually go to Jack Daniel’s, and we get some for BenRiach too that haven’t even been filled with bourbon. That’s quite interesting. Obviously, it means that we’ve got more casks to pick from, we can experiment more with Woodford Reserve casks or rye barrels that previously held Jack Daniel’s rye, different variants of each of these two. Since there’s been more experimentation in bourbon, it means we can experiment more too. And equally, with the oak, there’s been lots of work done on the oak for Jack Daniel’s and Woodford. So I can tap into that expertise with different toasting and charring levels and whatnot as well. It’s a real collaboration there, and I think people can use more first fill bourbon casks than ever before, which is great for malt because it just brings out all of its sweetness and fruitiness and really dials it up. I think it’s great for, for the quality of single malts. We rely on the quality of the bourbon industry as well.

A: So do you think that the rise of bourbon in the U.S. is influencing the flavor profiles of Scotch, or influencing what an American consumer is looking for when it comes to Scotch?

R: I’m not sure about that. I think with Scotland historically, same with everywhere, actually, there were more blended Scotch drinkers in the world, with the big blends. And really, it’s actually more like wine in some ways, single malt, and the consumer is now waking up to the richness of tastes that you get from a single malt that you perhaps don’t get from a blend. I think there are more American consumers gravitating towards single malts because they’ve got more sweetness, the creaminess, the mouth feel, the fruitiness. Everything is really rich. And, obviously, bourbons have a rich flavor as well. And they’re not the same. They’re definitely very different. And I would say we’ve got a greater diversity, in many ways, of style, going from really quite full-bodied, smokey whiskies to extremely fruity whiskies, and we can use different casks. So I think the world has opened up to the flavor of whiskey as a whole, whether it’s American or Scotch.

A: That makes a lot of sense. And for those listeners who are curious as to when you say the single malts are fruity or more round, is that because they are just malt, and when you have a blend you are blending in grain whiskey as well?

R: Blended Scotch is a blend of grain whiskey which has been distilled in a continuous still, which is a big tall still, alembic still, and single malt Scotch whisky is distilled in copper pot stills, similar to Woodford Reserve, but with single malt we’re using 100 percent malted barley, and barley is arguably the most complex material in the world that you can brew with and you can distill with.You can have a very, very, very wide range of different flavors. And everything from orchard fruit, to dark fruit, to biscuity flavors, and then when you peat it over fire, as we do with some of BenRiach in our smoke season, we use peated malt. It has this really sweet smokiness, I think the bourbon drinkers are going to love it, because it’s more like a sweet barbecue than it is like sea salt. It’s quite different. I’m really excited for what people in the States think about BenRiach’s Smoky 10 and Smoky 12. But we also have in the new range, the Original 10, and we have a new 12 Years Old as well, which I think the consumers will also love because it has the richness of a 12 Years Old. With age, you get a richness of character that’s impossible to replicate any other way.

A: That’s really cool. So, I have one last question for you that’s a kind of a hot button. I just want your own opinion. I asked this last week to the founder of Jefferson’s Bourbon, and so I’m curious what you think as well. We’ve had this question from VinePair readers and listeners of the podcast in the past. We prize age when it comes to whiskey. Is there such a thing as a whiskey being too old?

R: If it’s in good wood and it’s an exceptional spirit, there’s no such thing as a whiskey being too old. I think it’s all to do with the quality at the end of the day. But if you get an unexceptional GlenDronach, BenRiach or Glenglassaugh in quality wood, top- quality spirits, it’s just going to be like the Holy Grail. There’s a certain elixir-type category that develops with age. In a good oak cask, it’s going to give you really, really, deliciously syrupy, concentrated flavor you’ve never experienced before. In a poor-quality cask, it’s obviously not going to be quite so great.

A: Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time today to chat with me about everything you’re up to, and also giving us a little bit of an update on how things are going in the Scotch industry in Scotland, now that we’re all facing Covid-19, and what’s happening at Edinburgh. I really appreciate you taking the time. So thank you so much.

R: No, thank you very much for inviting me on. And I would just say to everyone get healthy and stay well.

The article Brown-Forman Master Blender Rachel Barrie on Scotch and Sherry Casks: ‘A Match Made in Heaven’ appeared first on VinePair.

source https://vinepair.com/articles/brown-forman-rachel-barrie/

source https://vinology1.wordpress.com/2020/10/08/brown-forman-master-blender-rachel-barrie-on-scotch-and-sherry-casks-a-match-made-in-heaven/

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johnboothus · 4 years

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Brown-Forman Master Blender Rachel Barrie on Scotch and Sherry Casks: A Match Made in Heaven

Listen online

Listen on Apple Podcasts

Listen on Spotify

Or check out the conversation here

Rachel: Of course, please call me Rachel.

A: It’s funny. My father and my brother both have PhDs, and so I’m so used to calling people “doctor” that it was like a default. It’s much easier to call you Rachel, so thank you.

R: That’s absolutely fine. Thank you very much for asking.

A: Where do we find you today?

R: Oh, I’m, I’m at home in Edinburgh, Scotland. Which isn’t far from our head office in Edinburgh.

A: How are things in Edinburgh right now?

R: Fine. We are social distancing, and we have all the good practices in place. And my family and everyone at work is fit and healthy.

A: Edinburgh is such an amazing cocktail city. Are bars reopening. Are they open? And what does that look like?

R: Yeah. Bars are open, but they have to close by 10:00 p.m.

A: OK.

R: So we have that kind of curfew — the Covid curfew — by 10:00 p.m. at the moment. But they are opening.

A: Tell us a little bit about your role at Brown-Forman and the whiskies that you work on.

A: Amazing. Do you have an insurance policy on your nose?

R: I have life insurance, not specifically on my nose. But maybe I should.

A: I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Jerez and Spain, in particular. The GlenDronach is very much known for its sherry cask finishing. Correct?

A: When the casks come in they’re not drained at all? I mean, they’ve been drained of the sherry, obviously, but there’s probably still residual sherry in the cask, correct?

A: So you’re losing less whisky.

A: So do you think that the rise of bourbon in the U.S. is influencing the flavor profiles of Scotch, or influencing what an American consumer is looking for when it comes to Scotch?

R: No, thank you very much for inviting me on. And I would just say to everyone get healthy and stay well.

The article Brown-Forman Master Blender Rachel Barrie on Scotch and Sherry Casks: ‘A Match Made in Heaven’ appeared first on VinePair.

Via https://vinepair.com/articles/brown-forman-rachel-barrie/

source https://vinology1.weebly.com/blog/brown-forman-master-blender-rachel-barrie-on-scotch-and-sherry-casks-a-match-made-in-heaven

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isaiahrippinus · 4 years

Text

Brown-Forman Master Blender Rachel Barrie on Scotch and Sherry Casks: ‘A Match Made in Heaven’

Listen online

Listen on Apple Podcasts

Listen on Spotify

Or check out the conversation here

Rachel: Of course, please call me Rachel.

A: It’s funny. My father and my brother both have PhDs, and so I’m so used to calling people “doctor” that it was like a default. It’s much easier to call you Rachel, so thank you.

R: That’s absolutely fine. Thank you very much for asking.

A: Where do we find you today?

R: Oh, I’m, I’m at home in Edinburgh, Scotland. Which isn’t far from our head office in Edinburgh.

A: How are things in Edinburgh right now?

R: Fine. We are social distancing, and we have all the good practices in place. And my family and everyone at work is fit and healthy.

A: Edinburgh is such an amazing cocktail city. Are bars reopening. Are they open? And what does that look like?

R: Yeah. Bars are open, but they have to close by 10:00 p.m.

A: OK.

R: So we have that kind of curfew — the Covid curfew — by 10:00 p.m. at the moment. But they are opening.

A: Tell us a little bit about your role at Brown-Forman and the whiskies that you work on.

A: Amazing. Do you have an insurance policy on your nose?

R: I have life insurance, not specifically on my nose. But maybe I should.

A: I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Jerez and Spain, in particular. The GlenDronach is very much known for its sherry cask finishing. Correct?

A: When the casks come in they’re not drained at all? I mean, they’ve been drained of the sherry, obviously, but there’s probably still residual sherry in the cask, correct?

A: So you’re losing less whisky.

A: So do you think that the rise of bourbon in the U.S. is influencing the flavor profiles of Scotch, or influencing what an American consumer is looking for when it comes to Scotch?

R: No, thank you very much for inviting me on. And I would just say to everyone get healthy and stay well.

The article Brown-Forman Master Blender Rachel Barrie on Scotch and Sherry Casks: ‘A Match Made in Heaven’ appeared first on VinePair.

source https://vinepair.com/articles/brown-forman-rachel-barrie/ source https://vinology1.tumblr.com/post/631430712546017280

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wineanddinosaur · 4 years

Text

Brown-Forman Master Blender Rachel Barrie on Scotch and Sherry Casks: ‘A Match Made in Heaven’

Listen online

Listen on Apple Podcasts

Listen on Spotify

Or check out the conversation here

Rachel: Of course, please call me Rachel.

A: It’s funny. My father and my brother both have PhDs, and so I’m so used to calling people “doctor” that it was like a default. It’s much easier to call you Rachel, so thank you.

R: That’s absolutely fine. Thank you very much for asking.

A: Where do we find you today?

R: Oh, I’m, I’m at home in Edinburgh, Scotland. Which isn’t far from our head office in Edinburgh.

A: How are things in Edinburgh right now?

R: Fine. We are social distancing, and we have all the good practices in place. And my family and everyone at work is fit and healthy.

A: Edinburgh is such an amazing cocktail city. Are bars reopening. Are they open? And what does that look like?

R: Yeah. Bars are open, but they have to close by 10:00 p.m.

A: OK.

R: So we have that kind of curfew — the Covid curfew — by 10:00 p.m. at the moment. But they are opening.

A: Tell us a little bit about your role at Brown-Forman and the whiskies that you work on.

A: Amazing. Do you have an insurance policy on your nose?

R: I have life insurance, not specifically on my nose. But maybe I should.

A: I wanted to talk to you a little bit about Jerez and Spain, in particular. The GlenDronach is very much known for its sherry cask finishing. Correct?

A: When the casks come in they’re not drained at all? I mean, they’ve been drained of the sherry, obviously, but there’s probably still residual sherry in the cask, correct?

A: So you’re losing less whisky.

A: So do you think that the rise of bourbon in the U.S. is influencing the flavor profiles of Scotch, or influencing what an American consumer is looking for when it comes to Scotch?

R: No, thank you very much for inviting me on. And I would just say to everyone get healthy and stay well.

The article Brown-Forman Master Blender Rachel Barrie on Scotch and Sherry Casks: ‘A Match Made in Heaven’ appeared first on VinePair.

source https://vinepair.com/articles/brown-forman-rachel-barrie/

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notjustagirltattoopodcast · 4 years

Text

Not Just A Girl: Made by Hand

You can listen to the twelfth episode with Amy Jones here. Or you can find this interview on YouTube with English subtitles/closed captions here.

NOT JUST A GIRL: Tattoo Podcast

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Season 1, Episode 12: Made by Hand

Eddy: Hello, friends and welcome to Not Just A Girl, your friendly feminist tattoo podcast. I'm Eddy and I'm back to share with you the thoughts and experience as some of my favorite people in tattooing. On the 12th episode and the last of the season, we'll be talking about tattoo conventions, hand poke tattooing, and what we've learned in lockdown.Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are the traditional custodians of this land that was stolen and never ceded. I am honored and grateful to be on the ancestral land of the Awabakal people and I pay my respect to their Elders past and present and extend that recognition to their descendants.Today I get to chat to one of my dearest friends, the fabulous and talented Amy Unalome. Amy works at La Flor Sagrada in Melbourne, and does some of the most beautiful and clean ornamental hand poke tattoos I've ever seen. I even have some myself. Um, I met Amy at a convention a few years back and we eventually got to tattoo each other. And I'm super grateful now to call her my friend. Thank you so much for being part of the podcast, Amy. Amy: Oh, my gosh. Thank you for having me. Eddy: So good. Anyway, hand poke tattoos. That's your thing, everyone knows that. Um, how does your style differ from, you know, Tebori or Ta Moko or the more traditional or tribal styles of hand poking?Amy: Um, well, it's, it's like something that people always ask it's like, generally, like, probably a question that I get almost every single day, at least once or twice a day. And it's like, it's funny cause people say like, so like what made you choose like hand poking or what's the difference with poking than like regular tattooing? Um, I feel like, I guess like regular tattooing could mean a lot of different things, but, um, the main thing that, um, I guess what is hand poking in the sense that I do it is, um, It's basically the exact same idea of tattooing with the machine apart from you take that whole element of the machine out of that. Um, so it's just tattooing by hand. You still use the same, um, needles as you would with a machine. Um, same idea, it's just a lot more slowed down. And the motion of like piercing the skin is kind of, it's done by hand in a repetitive motion. Eddy: Yeah. It's definitely less trauma on the skin as well. Like the ones you did on my thumbs, there's absolutely no bleed out or drop out whatsoever and the heal was so easy. Amy: Yeah, I find, um, because the, um, technique is a lot less intense on the skin um, it definitely creates like a lot less inflammation around the tattoo. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that kind of go into hand poking, but definitely the method allows like a lot less intense experience.Eddy: Yeah. It's definitely more relaxing. Like when you did the ones on my tragus, I barely like felt it. It was just kind of a really relaxing and soft experience. Amy: Yeah. I really like, I'm really intrigued to know how like, hand poking feels on the face. Cause I'm like, Ooh, I think I'm going to like it. Like, that's something that I want to experience myself, it'd be cool.Eddy: Yeah. Well, what brought you to that style in the first place? Because you did a trad, a normal apprenticeship, but what, what was the choice that like, why did you choose hand poking rather than machine in your apprenticeship? Amy: Um, well, it's kind of strange how it all came about. Like, I don't think I ever sat down for like a moment and was like, I'm going to tattoo and I'm going to tattoo in this way, and this is the way I'm going to do it. It kind of will happen like quite organically and almost as if like how it was meant to be, um, like me and hand poking always kind of like went hand in hand. Um, Like my first ever experience of it, it's actually like really funny. Um, I was like eight teen, um, and I was hanging out at like a friend's house and we were like, we're punks, lets pierce each other, let's get these safety pins and put them through our noses.And I met one of my friends. She was like, um, Oh, I um I've tattooed myself the other day. Like, do you want me to show you how it's done and I was like, hell yes, I do. Like, that sounds so bad ass. And, um, there was something so cool about a friend of mine, like being able to like mark me in such a simple way, you know? Um, so from then on really like, She did one on me and then I did one on myself and we had like ciggies in our mouths and we were like swigging whiskey at the same time...I love this. Really from then on it just kind of stuck with me. It was something that I was always kind of like, not from a sense that I don't want to go and get tattooed by machine because I did that a lot anyway, like a loved getting tattooed when I was younger, but this was like, I guess it was my way of like, being able to like literally use my hands and use some other equipment and like, tattoo that way.And, um, I guess like the journey that led me to Australia and like led me to Melbourne. And kind of like put me where I was in a place to kind of do an apprenticeship. It was all surrounded around hand poking. And, um, I remember before I even like, thought about getting an apprenticeship, I didn't even think that hand poking was something people did professionally. I thought there was, tattooing and there was traditional tribal tattooing and I just did not think that anyone would ever take like stick and poke um, seriously enough to for it to be a thing. Eddy: Yeah. Cause I guess it was really seen as just a part of like the punk community or, you know, more what's the word like? Not mainstream. Amy: Yeah, it was kind of like anti-establishment like prison tattoo, DIY stick n poke, spiritual, maybe like. I mean, I don't know. Maybe if I just didn't realize that at the time, but it, when I kind of started professionally, like it wasn't really around as much I was aware of in like Melbourne at the time.Eddy: Yeah. Well, you were the first person I'd heard of who was a professional tattooer, who did their tattoos with like by hand rather than by machine. Like everyone else I was aware of in Australia anyway, only talking about Australia here, like everyone else that I was aware of who was doing stick and poke was doing it at home and hadn't ever done an actual apprenticeship. Amy: Yeah, well, don't get me wrong. Like obviously, like my, my story kind of comes from that place of like, you know, I found hand poking in a, in a world that wasn't professional. Um, and obviously, like, I kind of experimented with that on myself, not in a professional environment. Um, and it wasn't until kind of like, Became aware to me like that. Um, there was a few artists in England, um, and Europe and some in America that I kind of started noticing like, Whoa, these people, uh, um, hand poking and they're doing it professionally, and they're doing it out of a studio. They're like, Holy crap, this is something that like, can be done. You know. Eddy: Like Gary Burns, like so amazing. Amy: Yeah. And like, you know, Grace, like Grace Neutral, she was probably one of the first, um, hand poke tattooist in a professional environment that I really kind of like followed that career and their work and was like looking at her go, like it's cool. People can do it. Eddy: Yeah and there's been a lot of like, discussion about what a professional tattooer means like, do you have to have done a certain kind of apprenticeship or, you know, can you just be mentored or can you just decide to do it? And like what, where do you stand on that? Amy: That's, that's always been like a kind of issue that's surrounded me. Um, I was fortunate enough that when I decided that hand poking tattooing in general was something that I, I wanted to do professionally. There was no other choice to me than to search out a traditional apprenticeship. And for me, the only way to, to be able to work within a studio environment was to approach in that way and kind of like ask around and look for a professional apprenticeship. Mainly with the idea that I would, um, be tattooing with machine. So, um, it wasn't until I decided that that was something that I wanted to do. I started looking around for apprenticeships and like, don't get me wrong, it is not easy. You don't just fall into it, especially when you're telling people in professional shops that like, yeah, I really want to do um hand poke like, I'd prefer to really concentrate on that rather than, um, move to machine. Like a lot of people told me to like F off. Eddy: It took me like four years to get an apprenticeship. Amy: Yeah. It's not easy. And, and like this, I guess. This is the kind of like the wall that I hit is that I, because that's the way that I entered the tattoo industry and I did do a formal apprenticeship and I was really fortunate enough to, um, work with tattooers that, um, gave like gave time to me and showed me things that, you know, that they would kind of show me everything they know about tattooing and then kind of helped me almost like turn that into, like, how am I getting use to hand poke? Like no one actually physically sat me down and showed me how to like, do a hand poke tattoo. Um, but I guess it's, it's hard because like hand poke and stick n poke tattooing is something that kind of is associated more with a free vibe, you know, like do it at home.Um, maybe you might not think that you do do like a traditional apprenticeship in that sense, but I kind of entered the industry surrounded by a very old school mentality and a very kind of, if you want to be in the industry, this is the way that you get at that. And not only from like a perspective of like learning how to tattoo properly, but like learning how to tattoo safely, um, which is really important to me. But like, I honestly think in the past I've had like, quite straightforward views about that and I kind of really want to acknowledge that, like, there's not one way to do an apprenticeship.Eddy: Absolutely.Amy: And people learn in different ways. I think the old school apprenticeship in the sense that, you know, The ones that we might've experienced. Um, it's definitely a lot different nowadays and creating like a safe and, um, like nice environment to learn how to tattoo in is very important. But I also think it's still super important to do it in a, um, in a studio environment, because that way you'll really learn how to do it safely. But, um, yeah, I know a lot of people have entered the industry life without the traditional kind of sense of it, but I guess, yeah. I mean, I don't know any other way. Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's more prevalent in hand poking to people to just start at home and then suddenly get a job in the studio without having had that training and real understanding of the techniques they're using, um, you know, blood pathogen training, just understanding how to work with clients. And, you know, some of these people might be incredibly talented and bring a lot to tattooing, but it's also detrimental in some ways to the customer, because when you work at a professional studio, the customer assumes that you have had professional training and yeah, I'm the same. Like I used to be very staunch on my views of there's only one way to answer tattooing and it's this way. And I've changed my mind on that a lot and opened it up to understanding that there are many ways you can enter tattooing, but at the same time, I think you do still need a mentor. Someone who is a professional tattooer. To show you whether it be in a formal or informal capacity, how to tattoo, how to understand the skin, different techniques and mostly client safety.Amy: Absolutely. Like there's not been kind of like one person in particular that's been responsible for showing me and teaching me like studio and shop etiquette and, um, safe practice. Um, I've picked that up from working at a few different places with so many different people. And like, I think in the tattoo community we're fortunate enough to share information with each other and support each other and make suggestions. Eddy: Yeah. Amy: I think without that, that's when you really fall into like some kind of trouble, because maybe you assume that, you know what you're doing and without that kind of peer support in a safe environment, um, you can be making mistakes that you didn't even know exist.Eddy: Exactly. Amy: You know so I would have conversations with clients that had been like oh, you know, like, Oh, I got this done um, by a professional, you know, it was clean and it don't worry it was really safe. And it's like, well, like um first and foremost I'm glad that the client felt safe and happy to do so, but at the same part, and like, you know, you as a tattooist you can kind of like see things in their tattoo that they're talking about and you're like, You know, you hear about how the setup was and you see the way that the tattoo has been done. And you know, it, wasn't done by a person with professional training, but that's not important to some people, I guess it's always been important to me. Eddy: Yeah, same. And I think for me, as soon as someone takes money for that service, that's when it crosses the line, like. You know, I mean, we've all done things that we shouldn't have done when we started out, you know, we've all had rocky backgrounds or whatever, especially, you know, kind of 10, 20 years ago, people coming into it it was a very different world. Yeah, if client's safety and, and people's health, isn't our first priority we really need to rethink whether we're in it for the right reasons as well, because it's a huge responsibility. And, you know, there's a huge difference between somebody tattooing themselves at home for fun and them taking money and taking clients and pretending they know what they're doing. Amy: Yeah. And I think that's why we kind of like run into trouble sometimes with the idea of what hand poke tattooing is. Um, it's also like referred to a lot of the time is, um, stick n poke, which also, you know, like upon like searching the internet, what that might mean. It definitely means a lot to different people. Um, I mean, like, I don't want to be the one that kind of says what hand poke or what stick and poke tattoo is. It's like, some people love the element that it's like unregulated and, um, it's kind of got a little bit more freedom in it because you either have to, um, stick to the kind of guidelines of machine tattooing. Um, but for me kind of, as soon as I decided that it was going to be something that I provide to the public and to clients it's really important always and it always has been for me to be able to do it properly, I guess. Like, I guess like what's the proper way to do it, but I, yeah, I mean, I, I've kind of been like raised up through this kind of very professional, um, surroundings in the industry and, and maybe it's sometimes been to my detriment, like.There's this like a sense of like a hand poke community, um, and also a tattoo community. And I've never really liked found a place in between the two. I don't feel like I've ever really been accepted into one or the other and I guess like that I can say the same if I'm trying to say like what's professional and what's not like, I'm kind of like, I dunno. I feel like it's a bit more fluid than this being like... Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. And it must be hard kind of being between the two worlds, like, you know, tattooers who use machines being like, you're not a real tattooer cause you don't use machines. Even though we only started using machines when electricity came along and then like, yeah, the hand poke community saying, Oh, you work in a shop, you call yourself professional. You're not, you know, DIY enough for us, it's really, that's a hard balance. Amy: I've always felt like, especially, um, when I started tattooing professionally, there was really like very, very few other like professional hand poke artists that I knew of in Australia. So it was always hard, um, kind of feeling, um, like always felt like a bit of an outsider. Like I wasn't kind of included in the tattoo community cause you know, everybody in the shop would be talking about like techniques of machine or, you know, there's Amy, she's just doin her silly little hand pokes, like when you're going to pick a machine up, you know? And then when hand poke started becoming really popular, um, I was kind of taught by my peers to like kind of rage out against that because they hadn't done professional apprenticeships like I had. So that then segregated me from the hand poked community, um, which I kind of longed for the whole time that I've been tattooing, um, and it hasn't really been until the last few years when I've met um, a lot of tattoo is, um, like yourself. And when I kind of got involved with Not Just A Girl that I was like, Oh, Whoa, okay. Like, Now tattooers are kind of excepting me, but I'm still not accepted in, I don't know. I've always kind of been a bit of a floater in that sense, but. Eddy: Yeah, that's so typical.Amy: Definitely. Eddy: OhAmy: Sorry. Eddy: I was going to say that's so typical of that toxic side of tattooing that we create cliques and then we set them against each other. It's just. Like, I remember working in a studio in Newcastle where it wasn't particularly pleasant, but I remember when I was trying to reach out to other artists, they were like, why, why would you talk to them? They are your competition. You should hate them. And you see that recurring in tattooing, like, you know, Oh, girls can't work together because they're too much drama. They don't get along. They'll hate each other. And then, yeah, like machine tattooers against hand pokers and there's a lot of hate. Amy: I had a, I had a client, um, come to me months and months ago. And they told me that that walked into like a local shop. And, you know, just to have a look, do have a walk in maybe, fun little tattoo and they'd had a hand poke tattoo by me previously. And they said to the receptionist, like, Oh, do you have any hand poke artists here? Like, I've had one of those before and I really liked another one. And they replied with, we don't acknowledge that as a professional form of tattooing. So no, we don't do it at this shop. And I was just like, man, that sucks. Because like I put so much time and energy into kind of like creating that professional element to what I do that is like, Oh, okay. Everyone's not keen on it yet. That's okay. Eddy: How can you not recognize something that's a part of your own history? Amy: Yeah. I mean, I like, I have no idea who the person was that said that, I was like, Oh, okay, well come and get one from me again. I guess like, yeah. Eddy: That's so mad to me. Like all tattooing in every single culture has started as a hand poke form of tattooing. Amy: Yeah. I mean, this is it's again, it's kind of like that divide between like, what is what, and I don't think that we need, like, we need to really kind of label it like that. Like, I don't think that like, machine tattooers should label hand poke as non-professional. But I also think that like maybe professional hand poke tattooers should not label like stick n poke as, you know, like. I mean, like, as long as somebody's doing it in a studio, like in a safe environment and they've taken the time to kind of, um, educate themselves with safe practice and you know, it's all healthy. Um, so like, who am I to say? What is, and what isn't, what should be, and I can't get mad when other people say the same about me, but I think I've been super lucky in that, like I've managed to work with a lot of people that do acknowledge what I do and do, um, make me feel very welcome, um, in tattooing now and like to the point where like, even tattooers want to get tattoos from me, like that means the world that like that's kind of like being accepted that my work is like, okay. Eddy: That's the best feeling when a tattooer books in with you.Amy: It's so excited about it, but at the same time, I'm like F off I'm too nervous, so scary. Like when you asked to get tattooed by me, I was like heart attack city like, just can't deal with it. But somehow I managed to get through.Eddy: Yeah. It's one of those things where you have like, have a little bit of a panic attack in the bathroom beforehand. I dunno, you come at it shaking like, Oh my God, I hope I settle down before I finished this tattoo. Amy: Literally, like before I tattoo anyone I have to have like a little like pow wow in the, like toilet, like, yeah, I've got this. I remember, like my apprenticeship, every time the door opened, I would run to the toilet. So everybody thought that I had like some kind of like toilet problem. Cause that's just like my safe place. It's just, I don't know, those ones that are the scariest ones are the ones that I seem to just like, something just comes over you and you can just do it. Eddy: Yep. Amy: I don't know. Eddy: Fight or flight. Amy: Yeah, man. Yeah. Eddy: Yeah. Talking about being nervous tattooing, you have done so many conventions and I I'm always a nervous wreck at conventions, but I mean, you've you're like old hat at it now?Amy: I, um, I was really, really fortunate in that my first like four years of tattooing. Um, it was very heavily concentrated on the, um, convention circuit, um, not only in Australia, but I was really, really lucky to be able to travel, um, worldwide, to do them and like, don't get me wrong. I still get so nervous, like social anxiety to the max. Um, but the, I think the more you do, the more you kind of like realize that, um, everyone's in the same boat. Um, and you can kind of like drown out the, um, the craziness and the noise around you because you still have these like really awesome intimate connections of each person that like, kind of walks up to your booth so. I still get nervous, but it does get easier. Eddy: It's such a weird experience. Like, you know, doing this thing, you usually do every day, but having hundreds of people walking past just watching you it's yeah. It's, why do we do it? Amy: I don't know. It's crazy too cause I remember going to a convention before I was a tattooer and walking around and I was looking at all these artists being like, Whoa, like this is so cool. Like, can you imagine being able to do this one day? So, I think every convention that I do now, I have like a moment of gratitude being like, man, I'm like, I'm so like stoked that I'm like, yeah. And this is where I wanted to be. Um, it's yeah, it's really, it's cool. It's definitely a perk of my job for sure. Eddy: Yeah. I think the best bit of conventions is just the socializing with other tattooers and the friends you make. Like you, I met you at a convention and now you're one of my best friends and yeah. It's you can make some really amazing connections there. Amy: Yeah. I mean like a lot of the time, the things that I say to other people at conventions and like, did I just like, I went to like shake their hand and high five them at the same time. And I was like, woooo hey. Get like, so like doofussy and these like, um, interections especially with tattoo artists that I admire and look up to I'm literally like a jibbering like mess, like probably saying dumb stuff when we met. But, um, that it's certain conventions that I've been to the effort that other tattooers make to make connections with you is just like, it's so cool. And I've yeah. Um, a really great thing about it is meeting the artists, especially, um, within like our female community. Like we're always checking in with each other at conventions. It's really cute. Eddy: It is. Yeah. I know what you mean by going goofy though. Like my husband says that whenever, he can see me talking to like another tattooer at the convention that I've got, like T-Rex arms happening where I'm like holding my hands up to my chest because I'm so nervous and don't know what to do with them.Amy: I dont know what you're talking about. Literally, I, my biggest thing is I would walk around with this like kind of Stepford wives smile on my face. Like, Hello, nice to meet you. What are you doing? Have you been busy?Eddy: It's like the same three questions too. Amy: Always on repeat, like all weekend. Um, it's so cool because then like the way that conventions are set up and each person has their own booth to kind of, um, Show their own self in that small area. It really like sparks conversation between you and other artists and you buy prints, you buy like merchandise. Yeah. It really kind of like helps you bond really quickly especially because at conventions people are like what are you doing? What is that? Where's your machine? Is that all you packed? You just packed those few things, what the F.Eddy: You have like the smallest convention bag ever. Amy: I do. Um, it's a very fortunate thing about hand poking is that I do not carry a lot of equipment, so it's very good for traveling. Eddy: You can easily, you get through customs.Amy: This is true. Paddlepop sticks? Chopsticks? Yes.Eddy: Yeah, well we have a few conventions hopefully planned for like ourselves and you know, we've already been planning how we're going to deck our booth to be all amazing if these conventions ever happen. Amy: I know. I mean like travel is a bit of a strange thing right now, but um definitely the kind of the conventions that I want to attend they're everywhere they're all around the world. And it's just, um, that kind of, I didn't realize how lucky that we had it when we had the ability to travel as much as we did these really, really, really great conventions put on by really great people. Um, I look forward to when we can do them again. Eddy: What, what have been your favorite convention so far?Amy: Oh man. Um, I would say experience wise, um, I was really lucky to attend the, um, the first ever, um, South African Tattoo convention. Um, and what was incredible about that was, um, the, the organizers, um, It was kind of more like family run. Um, the, the organizers, putting so much work to kind of have all of these international artists come together in such a magical place, but also make us feel so welcome and, um, really showcase their country and their culture to us and help us bond and put on this. It was just such an incredible time. Um, there was so many cool tattooers there and we got to do some cool stuff. Um, so the, the kind of close connection, of that one was really fabulous. Um, the same for this one that I attend often which is the, um, the New Zealand Tattoo convention. Again, just like run by people that really care about tattooing, really care about not only making the artist comfortable, but they really, really like include the public and in what happens. And, um, just to get just the general vibe is more like, everyone's welcome. Let's all be friends. Let's hang out. It's so fun. Eddy: It's so lovely at the New Zealand one, how they paid tribute to, um, Like the local customs and traditions by putting on the like welcome to country. I don't know what, like haka, is it Amy: The haka? Yeah.Eddy: Yeah. Yeah its so beautiful.Amy: Their traditional welcome. It's, yeah. And it's totally respectful of, um, the, the town and the country that it's held in. And um, Having like so many artists come from around the world, um, and the whole, it's a small town and everyone's so welcoming, they're so keen to show you about their like history and their country. It's so fab. It's really cool. Eddy: It's awesome. I can't wait till the next one. And I think the thing I love about it is, you know, And, and that it's a huge difference between the Australian conventions and the New Zealand or other international ones that I've seen, like where it is actually focused on tattoo art specifically. And they don't use women's bodies to sell their merchandise. You know, we're not objectified and you know, in Australia, it's very, very disappointing. How, you know, from my personal experience, how I've been treated at conventions. Amy: Yeah. I mean, it's a shame. Um, I think it has been acknowledged in the past that maybe some of the, um, kind of entertainment and advertising aspects of Australian conventions might have been a little bit more, um, concentrated on, um, exploitation of, um, women's bodies and sexuality in tattooing. And I think a lot of female tattooists had kind of spoken up about maybe like, you know, in advertisements, maybe show us tattooing rather than walking a catwalk. But, um, you know, I definitely understand that you need to provide a certain element of entertainment maybe for the general public come into a tattoo show, but I think it's also really important that it's all inclusive in that sense and the entertainment isn't more of like a physical representation of what tattooing is, and more kind of like let's include everybody and make it about the art. Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's advertised as a family friendly event, make it family friendly, like, you know, instead of, you know, burlesque, and now I have absolutely no problem with burlesque, pole dancers, anything like that. I absolutely love that stuff, but I also love it in the correct venue, you know, at lunchtime, at a family friendly event, a little child's not going to understand what they're seeing and you know, that removes the parents' ability to censor what their children are seeing and, you know, introduce them to it at an appropriate time. And. Yeah, that and the way that they went about it, like my last convention, you know, I was hearing things like her tits are gonna set you on fire over the loudspeaker. And I'm just like, I'm a, I'm a woman and I'm sitting here trying to do a tattoo and I'm hearing stuff like that and that makes me feel unsafe and uncomfortable. And you know, when I've gone to Literary Ink or New Zealand, for example, I haven't had that at all. I feel very much just another tattooer. You know, I'm not separate at all.Amy: That's quite shocking to hear. Um, like I guess that I would say that's the main difference. Maybe the entertainment that's provided during, um, The conventions compared to ones that I've been to before. Um definitely, I don't really, haven't really attended an Australian convention in a short while. But um. Eddy: Same, yeah, it's been about 3 years.Amy: Yeah, um acknowledged that they'd been kind of making some changes within how how that kind of worked and what kind of entertainment was supplied, but it's just that it was just a different vibe. It was kind of like, this is the way that it is, and this is one set way and this is how it's going to be. And, um, yeah, it was sometimes it's a little disappointing. Eddy: Yeah. It sucks not being heard and included in tattooing and yeah. Like, I think things are starting to change though. There are people who are actually making more effort. Like I haven't been there yet, but I've heard that the Wellington convention, again, in New Zealand, like that they actually actively striving for more equality in and diversity in the artists they choose to invite and having it very artist focused. Amy: That's really cool. Yeah. That's something that I've definitely found. Um, a lot of, uh, conventions that I've been to is, um, the artists attending, um, super diverse, really cool. Um, so many different people traveling from not only within that country, but internationally as well. And it's this, this kind of magical boiling pot of lots of, um, tattooers coming together and sharing experiences and techniques and ideas. It's really cool. Eddy: It's so good. I feel like, you know, All of the bullshit aside, the way that it's marketed, the entertainment. I think the money making side of it, the stuff that the business people involved do, I think that aside the actual act of a whole bunch of tattooers coming together and, you know, doing tattoos and talking to each other and sharing, you know, their skills and their ideas that is like absolutely magical. And that's hopefully something we can continue to do. Amy: At the end of the day, I think what's important is that the, um, the tattooers was attending conventions, feel comfortable and included, the clients attending tattoo conventions, feel comfortable and included and families attending. And, um, you know, a lot of hard work goes into, um, putting these things together. I've seen it first hand and there's a lot of different ideas and a lot of different, um, people that want certain things, everyone's got different ideas of how they want it done, but at the end of the day, um, having that space for everyone to come together, I think it's really cool and important. Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And you can put aside all of the, the fighting and focus on safety and comfort, and then everything's good. Amy: You'd hope so. Eddy: It will be interesting to see what conventions are like now, you know, with social distancing and all of these other things that we don't know how long they're going to be a part of our society for it. I wonder how it'll change the way that people attend to conventions and interact with artists. Amy: Yeah. I think a lot of things are gonna change, um, especially, yeah, you can look back and be like, man, like we had it real good for awhile there, but I guess if this has given us anything, it's a chance to maybe shake things up and umm have a look at the way we do things and yeah, move forward for the better, I hope, and hopefully we can kind of get back to that convention lifestyle at some point. Travel again.Eddy: Yeah hopefully. Well talking about like.Amy: A couple of drinks.Eddy: Yes, talking about like, you know, changing things up and looking at the way you do things, you know, that's something that we've talked about a lot over the lockdown period. Just like how this event has changed, our perspective. And, um, what has isolation taught you? Amy: Um, honestly, I feel really awful that it's a terrible thing that's happened and there's a lot of like bad things to come out of it. I think personally, for me, I've found the time really, really good for me. Um, really just having like the chance, like. When you put all of your life into something and all of your energy and time into something that you love so much, having that taken away from you is like terrifying. And it was something that I feared in more ways than one, if I was going to have certain things taken away from me and, um, Yeah. I mean, like having the time to stop, um, like not, you know, not go to work every day and just kind of like take a moment to step back from tattooing and then think like, Whoa, what's going on. Um, uh, found it to be like, yeah, really refreshing, really good time to just kind of reassess kind of what's important in life. And what, what do you care about and what you can do with your time and energy? So I've found it like quite quite good for the old mental health.Eddy: And you know you're a Brit in, in Australia. So you've had like no support from the government. So you've, you know, to be so positive and to get through with no help and not being able to, you know, see your family and all that. Like that's, that's amazing that you've had such a positive outlook. Amy: Yeah. Well, I, um, I am like fortunate and privileged enough to, um, have a really good support network around me. Um, then, you know, like, I've found the time to use my creativity, to support myself during the time. I also like really had to like take a step back from creativity for a while as well. And just kind of, um, Yeah think about things that are actually, you know, like if tattooing isn't all of my life and all consuming, what is it that I care about?Eddy: Yeah. Amy: Um. Eddy: And that's not a question and we would ask ourselves very often, like, what else is there and what other ways can I contribute? Amy: Well, that was, that was the big thing for me. Um, I like at first, I was like, I'm going to do so many things. Like I got really creative, um, had a really great time experimenting with painting and making art to kind of make prints. Um, but kind of when all that slowed down, I really wanted to stop and think like, I don't currently feel like I'm contributing anything to my community. And I do think that like ... as a tattooer. It, yeah, it really does kind of benefit people in a lot of ways. But when, when you don't have that, I was like, yeah, what, what can I do to kind of help? What would I want to do if I didn't do this? And I guess it kind of all kind of came back around to that whole, like, I really want to be able to help people in life like and contribute in ways that like, I hadn't really thought about before. And, um, yeah, I guess like one, one kind of like something that's like really close to my heart and something that I really liked discovered was important to me as I want to, um, kind of when I get the chance to take a little bit of a step away from tattooing and concentrate more on maybe, um, counseling.Eddy: Thats awesome.Amy: Yeah. Within, um, family violence. Eddy: Yeah. Amy: Um, And just, you know, like this, that, this kind of thing, it's, it's always that it's always happening. It doesn't stop. And even during a crisis, like what happened, like charities still need help. People still need volunteers. So yeah, I really kind of decided that's something that I want to kind of, um, work towards, um, a career within, at some point.Eddy: That's brilliant. And it's really good that you've allowed this time to reflect on that and like, discover that desire in yourself because you know, people are experiencing, you know, domestic violence in their home at alarming rates in lockdown. It's, it's been really devastating, and you know, there's not enough help for people in those situations. So the more people like yourself who actually genuinely care and want to help who are out there, the better the world's going to be. Amy: Yeah just like Um, anything that you can do really, um, I kind of like looked into doing some volunteer work um, during this time, like, I didn't feel like I was doing a lot myself. So like I found it was important to educate myself with ways to find out how you can help, um, in the future. Um, and there's lots of really good organizations that I kind of looked into that you can can volunteer with, that you can work for you can, um, help out at, um, Yeah, it was cool. I like, I just never had like a chance in my life to kind of stop and think what would I do if I wasn't tattooing, I found like in those times of reflection as it's like, what else do I care about? Yeah. Eddy: It makes sense as well, because I feel like as a tattooer, we do tend to have a well developed empathy. You know, we have to like really care about our customers. And well not have to, we do, care about our customers and, you know, keep them safe and, you know, ease them through what's a painful process. So it makes sense that that empathy can translate into other careers and other options. And, you know, I feel like those two things can work well together as well. Like, you know, kind of trauma and tattooing. Amy: Hundred percent. Um, I would say honestly for me, one of the main things about my practice is I love to make people feel comfortable. It's like one of the most important things that I do that the minute a client walks through the door and comes and sits in my space and kind of like trusts me to put that body in a vulnerable position and is like my number one to make people feel happy and comfortable and feel that they can talk about anything.And I didn't realize that how much of a massive part of like my job that is and how important it is. I guess I've always just found that I can talk to people really well. Um, and like, it makes me feel good when people say that they had a nice experience because I managed to make them feel comfortable. And that that will never change for me that something that like, it is always so important, but, and it's crazy that you find how, as soon as your client's comfortable, like they almost start to open up to you and, you know, they find a lot of therapy within that tattoo session as well. It's kind of thing that I'm already quite active daily and doing like, it just, I just want people to feel like they can tell me that they're feeling okay. That they're comfortable while they're getting tattooed. They can talk to me if they want to. Um, it's one of the most magical parts of what we do, I think is those intimate moments with people. Um seeing somebody kind of like come into your space and just feel completely at ease for you to, you know, Mark their body.Eddy: Yeah. It takes a lot of trust for sure. And you know, you're, you're always so amazing with your clients. Like whenever I've seen you working here at my studio, whenever I've been visiting La Flor, you're so welcoming and so kind to them and you can, you can see that, like they leave happy and they leave like really loving their tattoo.Amy: Yeah, I mean like, like you said, it's like a trust that people put in you and you don't want to, you don't want to take that for granted for a second. And I want, I want them to know that how thankful I am that they've trusted me to tattoo them. So if we can have a chat, if we can have a laugh, if we can have a really positive experience, then that. That to me is like, hopefully they're going to walk away loving the tattoo that they have aesthetically, but also walk away loving the experience that they had personally. And I'm really lucky in that I get a lot of people kind of come back to me for that reason being like, it was nice. I felt good. We had a good time. I like what I got, like tattooin doesn't have to be this scary painful experience. It can be actually really lovely. Eddy: Yeah. I'd love for our listeners to, to know that as well, that, you know, if you're ever in a situation where you don't feel safe getting tattooed, you know, you can, you can leave. Like you should not ever feel unsafe. You should not ever feel uncomfortable or unwelcome, like, you know, and you have a right to walk away as well. You know, nobody ever has a right to treat you badly and you're paying for a luxury service and that comes with certain behaviors. And I would like to mention, if it's okay, Amy, um, you know, there's been a lot of talk in the last few days about some things going on in tattooing with a Tattoo Me Too movement. Um, and I want to use this platform while I've got it to to ask tattooers to look after their clients and to look after each other. You know, it's really unfair that we ask victims to be the ones to speak out and to talk about these situations because it's retraumatizing for them and it's very unfair. But, you know, as, as tattooers, we should be keeping an eye on things in the studio. And if we see another artist or a client behaving in a way that's inappropriate we need to put a stop to it. We need to call it out. We need to fire artists who misbehave. You know, we are the ones with the power in this situation and we can affect change in the industry to make it better so that, you know, there's more, tattooers like Amy, for example, who do treat her artists with her clients with respect.Amy: It's super Um, yeah, so many people have talked about maybe some experiences that they might've had in a tattoo shop where, and this is talking, like it happened a while ago and it still happens today where clients have felt uncomfortable to maybe speak up about something that they haven't felt a hundred percent comfortable with. And, um, I know that like I'm fortunate enough to work with people that are very conscious about, um, clients comfort and safety and be surrounded by tattooists that, um, do respect everybody. Um, but yeah, but yeah, if anyone would ever feel uncomfortable, um, You know, not happy with the situation they're in a tattoo shop it's totally, it's totally the time to like speak up and say something by and for artists. Like, noone should feel uncomfortable.Eddy: And you're right about being conscious because you know, we do have the power in the situation and a lot of people feel awkward. I know that before I was a tattooer I've been in situations where I wasn't happy with the design. I wasn't happy with the situation, but I got the tattoo anyway, because, and even, actually, since being a tattooer that's still happened to me, you know, because they have this power over you. So we need to, to learn, to be conscious of our clients' reactions to us and to, you know, endeavor, to get consent for everything and to just do our best, like, you know, no, one's perfect. You know, we're all learning, but as long as we're at least trying, I think, you know, it can really improve things for everybody.Amy: A hundred percent. Never assume that your client, just because they're there are comfortable. Um, I think it's important to always ask consent even before you start to draw on skin before you start to, um, hold their body in a certain way to put a stencil on, like it's yeah. You can sense, like you can get a sense for when people feel at ease but it's always important to ask as well.Eddy: Yeah. Even little things like the photograph, you know, if you know, if it's something that you would maybe feel a bit self conscious having that photograph on the internet, just check with them first. Like, you know, are you comfortable with this, this photo being posted? Amy: Absolutely. Um, I'm quite, um, lucky in the sense that a lot of my female clients feel comfortable enough for me to tattoo belly, um, and, you know, take in a photo as like an artist. You know, you kind of want to record your work. Um, for personal kind of prep, you know, have a look. Yeah kind of record what you've done, but you've got to remember that that's not like a piece of paper, that's your art work on a person's body. And that, that person, you know, has the right to say what they do and don't want, um, kind of like photographed or recorded. But yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm really grateful that, um, people feel comfortable, comfortable enough with me to have me tattoo certain body parts and, um, Yeah. Well, it's always important to check if they're happy, if you want to take a photo. Eddy: Exactly. And there's always like a way you can make the photos you know, more comfortable for the customer. Like I did some really cute spiderwebs, like under a girl's, um, butt cheeks, and, you know, she, wasn't very comfortable with having her butt exposed. So we just like draped the fabric of her skirt around so you couldn't see any of her butt, but you could still you see the spider webs and it was like, yep, that's good to go. I don't care if anyone else likes the photo or not. She likes it. Amy: Yeah, gorgeous. I remember when I guested at FLT actually, you guys have really beautiful, um, like floral shaped nipple covers, and everyone's like, Oh, I'm going to need some of these for like fashion afterwards, these are fab.Eddy: I know, I felt bad that sometimes you see, you know, when people are getting their sternum tattoo and they've got stickers over their nipples and I'm like, that would be so uncomfortable. So I'm going to get a proper pasty. It's got the correct adhesive. It's got the little cover.Amy: Yeah The old rip off afterwards would be a bit of a situation.Eddy: Oh, that's funny. Well, we've had a good chat. It's been awesome. Is there anything we missed or is there anything you wanted to share with our listeners? Amy: I mean, not particularly. I feel like, I feel like we've been on the phone for like 10 minutes. Like normally we just like. Eddy: Yeah. Amy: Chat for hours and hours and hours about everything tattoo. Um. Eddy: I'm pretty sure one night we talked for like four hours. Amy: My face hurts after I talked to you sometimes because I'm laughing or smiling the whole time or like screaming about something. Um, it's funny. It's like, Oh, we're going to do a podcast, but it's just going to be like talking to each other on the phone. But then like, as soon as the whole camera thing happened, I was like, I'm going to be weird. Eddy: My little T-rex arms. Yeah. Amy: Hello, have you been busy. Eddy: I know. I get instantly nervous. Amy: Yeah. I just I just freak out. Um, I guess I'm just like really grateful to have been given a platform to, um, talk about a bunch of different things, um, and the chance to be able to talk about tattooing.Um, yeah, sorry, interruption from the phone call. I was basically just saying that I'm very grateful to have had a platform to talk about, um, tattooing mainly, um, If anyone's ever interested in learning anything about what hand poke is, I'm always happy to share the knowledge that I have. Um, like I said, I'm kind of like, not the, I'm not the one to say what is, or what isn't, um, to be expected of hand poking, but I can definitely talk professional hand poking. Um, and it's really cool to be involved in something that allows us to, uh, Have a bit of a chat and have a voice in the industry. And I'm truly grateful.Eddy: Thank you so much for being a part of it. It's been like it's been, and the best, the last few weeks, just talking to all you amazing artists and I've learnt a great deal. And you know, as much as I'm certainly not a professional interviewer, it's been really great just to have lovely conversations about all the best bits of tattooing.Amy: Yeah. It's um, it's been so fun. I've been listening to the ones that have been released so far, and I'm just like, it's literally just like listening to your friends, chat, hearing people's really cool stuff. I'm like, Oh, cool. Yeah. Like I like talk about that all the time with Eddy and it's really nice to hear what everyone else is up to and uh, I mean, like, uh, like in the past year or two within tattooing I've just met so many amazing people, um, and I feel just like, so lucky to kind of, it might not have been the place that I thought that I would be included in, but I'm so like lucky to have finally found, um, a support network within tattooing, um, and a very inclusive kind of, um, welcoming community of people in tattooing and yeah, I feel like finally, like I have a home it's really nice. Eddy: Absolutely. I feel, I feel the same way. It's so it feels at home having that, that happy little community that we have.Amy: Yeah, we're very fortunate. Eddy: Well for our listeners, you can find the footage of this chat on YouTube with English subtitles. Um, you can follow us on Instagram at not just a girl underscore tattoo for a regular updates, you can also find lots of other information on the blog. I'll link everything in the show notes and be sure to give Amy a follow and send her lots of love because she's amazing and she deserves it. Thank you so much, Amy, for chatting to me today and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We really appreciate you. And I hope everyone has a fabulous day and remembers to fuck patriarchy.Amy: Ah yas.

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bbnnfeed-blog · 6 years

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Hold Your Lambos: Why Wall Street's Financialization of Bitcoin is NOT a Good Thing

New Post has been published on https://bnn.io/news/hold-lambos-wall-streets-financialization-bitcoin-good-thing/?utm_source=Tumblr&utm_medium=socialpush&utm_campaign=SNAP

Hold Your Lambos: Why Wall Street's Financialization of Bitcoin is NOT a Good Thing

“I’m going to burst your bubble. I know a lot of people really want to see an ETF happen because “to the moon and lambos!” But I think it is a terrible idea. I still think it is going to happen, I just think it is a terrible idea.”

This quote comes from Andreas Antonopoulos, author of the highly cited book Mastering Bitcoin, and one of the first public advocates of blockchain technology. Antonopoulos made his comments after the formation of the new start-up Bakkt, a firm founded by an eclectic group of corporate giants such as Starbucks and the New York Stock Exchange, that promises to make it easy for Wall Street to invest in cryptocurrencies.

Specifically, Andreas is addressing the claim that Wall Street’s acceptance is good for Bitcoin. He is skeptical that Wall Street will be a boon for this nascent industry.

“The idea here is to take a reserve of bitcoins and then make them tradeable instruments that can be traded on traditional markets like stocks. This is a custodial reserve system, where the custodian holds the actual bitcoin and what you’re getting is a share in their fund — not bitcoin.”

Are Antonopoulos’s claims valid? Let’s take a step back and assess both the pros and cons of cryptos coming financialization.

The Good Side of Financialization

Obviously, there is a lot of excitement about Wall Street’s entry into the crypto markets because they bring with them A LOT of money. The total amount of assets held by institutional investors was last reported to be over $131 trillion. For comparison, if the bitcoin market cap were $131 trillion, one bitcoin would be worth over $6.5 million (worldwide wealth is estimated $280 trillion )

Currently, these investors are restricted (see ‘Custody Rule’) from investing in the asset because the industry lacks SEC regulated custodians. Bakkt promises to change that.

These services legitimize crypto-assets as being safe for institutions to invest. In this sense, financialization is a positive development for crypto. Financialization adds liquidity to the market, which strengthens the underlying networks that power this tech. As more capital is invested, more resources are allocated towards securing the network (at least in proof-of-work systems). This process is identified by analyst Trace Mayer’s as Bitcoin’s sixth network effect.

While these are all positive, what has pundits like Andreas Antonopoulos worried is Wall Street’s notorious history of creating so-called “financial weapons of mass destruction.” To understand this, it is essential to have an understanding of the financial processes that underlie our markets.

Equity-based Assets vs. Debt-based Assets

There are two types of financial assets, equity-based assets and debt-based assets. Equity-based assets are ones that have no claims against them – they are not IOUs. Land, physical commodities, and personal property are equity-based assets. Cryptocurrencies would fall under this category as well. The one who controls the private keys controls the crypto. Debt-based assets are the opposite- when you ‘own’ a debt-based asset (a stock, bond, or practically any financialized product), someone owes it to you.

Skeptics like Antonopoulos and others fear that Wall Street’s history of leveraging will create debt-based cryptocurrency products, indeed it seems like that’s what Bakkt is doing. This could, in practice, create ‘artificial coins,’ hampering Bitcoin’s number one value, digital scarcity.

Two Words Wall Street Doesn’t Want You to Hear – Commingling & Rehypothecation

What do these terms mean, and how does it apply to your crypto? By, combining these two methods, Wall Street can transform equity-based assets into a debt-based instrument.

Comingling is the process of combining assets in a custody pool, rather than separating them into each account. In regards to digital assets, these pose two problems. One, combining assets into one pool creates a honeypot for hackers trying to steal coin. Two, once assets are comingled, identifying which crypto belongs to who is complicated. Contrast that with a scenario where an individual knew the public key where their crypto reside. Then, they can keep a watchful eye out for funny business.

Once an individual’s assets are comingled, those firms can rehypothecate the collateral for their own benefit. Rehypothecation refers to the practice of lending out assets under custody to other firms for their own benefit. Surprisingly, this practice is not illegal. A client may allow its fiduciary to rehypothecate the assets they hold safe with them to receive benefits like a cheaper borrowing cost or to receive rebates on fees. In practice, rehypothecation can lead to dangerous outcomes. The process allows IOUs to be turned into more IOUs, which are turned into even more IOUs. It is the financial equivalent of playing musical chairs. An excellent illustration of rehypothecation is found in the Oscar-winning film The Big Short.

Bitcoin is Different

As much as they wish it weren’t true, Wall Street cannot control bitcoin like they do other markets using these methods. As we have seen in the past, those who wish to impose their will on this technology are at mercy to the users who run full nodes and control their own private keys (A.K.A: 1st class Crypto Citizens).

Custodial services who abuse their power by creating bitcoin IOUs will be accountable to the participants of the network. Forbes journalist Caitlin Long wrote a three-part analysis on the double-edged sword of crypto financialization. The twenty-two-year Wall Street veteran and Bitcoin supporter comes to a somber conclusion for those who want to manipulate this technology.

“As bitcoin’s price is increasingly suppressed by creation of more and more off-chain, fractionally-reserved bitcoins, the network’s full-node participants have a bigger and bigger incentive to fork the chain and force a short squeeze—a permanent one—that could bankrupt exposed institutions.”

Ultimately, bitcoin is always the winner in this game-theoretical scenario. It’ll be up to Wall Street to cater to the tech, not vice versa. That’s because it is not possible to build secure applications on top of an insecure base layer, but it is possible to create secure (or insecure) applications on top of a secure base layer (Listen to Caitlin Long and Trace Mayer Discuss this in Depth on the Bitcoin Knowledge Podcast).

“Cryptocurrencies either will push incumbents to make the traditional financial system fairer and more stable, or will outflank and dominate them.”

We’ll be watching this development closely over the coming years, even though the likely outcome is that Bitcoin wins.

Edit: After this article was submitted, the CEO of Bakkt, Kelly Loeffler, announced that her company’s products “will not be traded on margin, use leverage, or serve to create a paper claim on a real asset.” If her word rings true, this would be seen as a victory for equity-based financial assets.

#Banks #Bitcoin #Cryptocurrency Exchange #General #Featured #Blockchain #Trading and Investing

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notjustagirltattoopodcast · 4 years

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Not Just A Girl: Dark Art of Sunshine

You can listen to the seventh episode with Tahlia Undarlegt here. Or you can find this interview on YouTube with English subtitles/closed captions here.

NOT JUST A GIRL: Tattoo Podcast

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Season 1, Episode 7: Dark Art of Sunshine

Eddy: Hello, friends and welcome to Not Just A Girl your favorite feminist tattoo podcast. I'm Eddy and I'm back to share with you the thoughts and experiences of some of my favorite people in tattooing. On the seventh episode, we'll be chatting about the social perception of tattoos, being a traveling tattooer and then settling down into a new and slower way of life.Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are the traditional custodians of this land that was stolen and never ceded. I am honored and grateful to be on the ancestral land of the Awabakal people. And I pay my respects to the Elders past and present and extend that recognition to their descendant.Today I am so happy to be joined by one of my dear friends Tahlia Undarlegt. Tahlia works at Great White Tattoo in Sydney. Um, and she is known for her unique psychedelic black work. Um, I actually met Tahlia in Melbourne at a convention before she started her apprenticeship and it's been such a joy to watch her grow and to watch her journey through tattooing. Um, she really is an absolute ray of sunshine and I'm so lucky to know her. Thank you so much for joining me today and for being part of the podcast, I'm so excited to chat to you. Tahlia: Thank you for having me this is awesome. Eddy: Um, I've seen heaps on your Instagram stories about all the little things you've been up to at the farm. Um, you know, you seem to really be using this time to connect with nature again. What has that been like for you? Tahlia: Um, it's been really lovely. I mean, like we, like my partner and I, we live part time in the city when we work and then part time here at the farm. So we've just kind of like gotten months worth of stuff done because we usually do two, three days a week down here. Uh, we've got, uh, like a fully sustainable veggie garden and like a big, like, we had some fermenting going with some different foods, but we wanted to get some other stuff done. So we've built ourselves, a chicken coop, but we have chickens and we've been doing like, um, other stuff like the gardens going nuts and lots of animals. Just typical farmer Joe stuff.Eddy: So many animals like the cats. The cats are such angels. Tahlia: Yes. I love those guys. Eddy: And you've been doing heaps of like foraging and hiking and stuff as well. Has that helped you get through the lockdown? Tahlia: Um, yeah, like we're very lucky. I mean, like we have a giant gorge behind our house and you can like hike down and, you know, there's all kinds of stuff down there. Like you can just, I've been. Looking into a lot more like, um, IDing, different like native plants and stuff, just to be able to kind of work out what's what, a bit more and like, you know, realizing how much like edible and like sustainable kind of things that we can get from around here. I mean, like I'm a big nerd for mushrooms. Like I really love just like, I just think like fungus in general is really interesting. Um, like, I mean, if you look at my work, you'd see in itself, like I'm very inspired by it, but it's kind of fun to finally have enough time to look into it enough to ID stuff to be able to take home and eat and not die from it. So that's good. Eddy: I mean, that's always a bonus for sure. And um like, obviously your love of nature and mushrooms in particular is really prevalent in your work and the way you use organic shapes. Like, do you think that'll continue to be a big part of your work moving forward after COVID? Tahlia: Um, definitely like, I think, um, you know, having more time to kind of have my hands in the dirt and not so much on the machines has been like a real nice kind of relief. Like, um, I don't know, like, there's just, it's always been prevalent in my work, but I suppose, like I've learned a lot more, therefore I've gained a lot more inspiration because, you know, I know a lot more plants and different like stuff now that it's like photographic memory that, you know, when I bring it in, um, I don't know, just anytime you do something it influences your work, I don't think it, it can't not influence it.Eddy: Yeah, I guess your work is just like an extension of yourself really and that's why it's so unique. Tahlia: Yeah. Just like an amalgamation of everything you find really cool and interesting. Eddy: I do love that about your work as well, because it is like, it's so unique and it's so instantly recognizable and it, it really does carry a lot of that joy and like fun that I see in you.Tahlia: Well, thank you. Um, like I, I try my hardest to do that, um, I really like, just like off that, like question that you said, like personally, like when I, like I've often been told I'm way too connected to like the tattoos that I do. And I don't know, like, I think that's a good thing and sometimes a bad thing as well, but, um, I do really love to meet my clients and like, kind of have a rough idea of what I'm going to do for them, or even like, when I email with them, I really love to kind of get an idea of like what they're into, what their kind of vibe is. And, you know, I like, if I can, when I create something kind of, you know, sometimes you don't realize like for me, with like, I suppose I can bring an idea that someone can speak out. I can draw her out, whereas like, you know, the other way round, like, I, I can't always like articulate myself as well, but I can definitely like show it in a different way. So I like in myself, I always want to try and bring that for other people so that, you know, when they get it, it's really something that's like, special to them.Eddy: Yeah. That's so nice. And it's so important to be able to use like the language of tattooing to express who the client is. Cause then they're going to live with that tattoo much more harmoniously throughout their life.Tahlia: Yeah, definitely. I mean like, um, like for anyone I think like, like everybody does it for a different reason, I suppose, but like personally for myself. I feel like there's so much kind of going on inside of you, that you just want to be like project that onto the world. And it's really nice to be able to kind of put that on you and be like, Hey world, you know, this is me. Like here's what I'm about, you know? And like, it's a good opener for like other people as well, you know, because you meet other people and you kind of see a little bit more about what they're about. And I mean, I'm not even just talking about tattoos, just like in any kind of like modification, whether it's the way you color or cut your hair or the clothes you decide to wear, you know, like you're obviously putting out something that you want to portray to the world, which is like really cool to be able to you know, solidify. I can internalise that for somebody, you know, like you just kind of be like, Oh, okay, this is your vibe. And being able to create something that maybe they couldn't like envision is really cool. You know and you see somebody look in the mirror and you're just like, I mean, I've done it myself, millions of times, like, you know, you get a new tattoo and all of a sudden you're walking past a mirror and you're like yeah who's that like feeling really cool, like that. It's like, you just love. You're just like, wow, this tattoo is way too cool for me and then... come to you. And you're like, yeah this is me. Eddy: You feel so much more in love with yourself and your body. And like you walk past a shop window and you check your self out and make sure you get a glimpse of the tattoo Tahlia: And all of a sudden you're buying clothes so that it sits like to suit a certain tattoo that you've got. You're like, I remember the first time I started my sleeve, I don't think I wore a single sleeve for like two years after that like. Eddy: I used to um like, Oh, I'm wearing a higher neck shirt now, but I never, ever used to expose my chest or cleavage at all. And then when I got my chest tattooed, I was like, I'm going to undo my buttons. I'm going to stop wearing like my buttons done all the way up. I'm going to start buying plunging neck lines. I just want this like to be on display because it's so beautiful. Tahlia: Yeah. I mean, like one of the ladies that I learnt tattoo off, uh, her name was Ela Pour, Berlin. Um, and also another girl I worked with Laura um, she had this like beautiful tattoo kind of coming around like her, like inner thigh kind of area. And she just like whenever she was, when we'd go to the beach or something, I always look and I'd be like, wow, she's so beautiful. And like, I remember her and Ela telling me like, they're like, Oh, you know, you can dress like that. And I was like, Oh, I can't, you know, like my inner thighs are too fat. You know, like when you're a bit younger, you feel like, like really like self conscious about stuff like that.And I remember them saying, well, just find something you love and tattoo it there and you'll never feel like that conscious about it. I remember we were traveling through Mexico with a friend of ours ...and, um, she was like, let's just tattoo some, like something that you love. So I had to, I got her to tattoo some lavender coming out of there. Like now, whenever I like slight if I've ever felt slightly self conscious about it, I'm kind of like, well I got a sick tattoo there so it doesn't really matter. I've, haven't worn shorts to the beach in a long time, which is like, I think, you know, personally for me, that's something I find really amazing about, you know, what we get to do and that we get to like, collect that ourselves. Eddy: Yeah. It's such a powerful way to express self-love and like self ownership. It's so beautiful. Tahlia: Yeah. I mean, it's like pretty much like reclaiming what was already in there, you know? Like, and, and I think sometimes like this can be a little bit misconstrued. Like sometimes people said to me, Oh, did you not love yourself? Like, how come you did that? You know, why didn't you just go to therapy or something? And it's like, well, I think like any kind of mental health I would say, you know, therapy is definitely great and I've been through therapy myself, you know, like, and I think that like, it's just like, like you were saying, it's like reclaiming that, you know, like it's not that you had something missing and this filled the void. It's that, like, you had something that you couldn't express and now all of a sudden like it's like this inner goodness in yourself, you're able to kind of project out and you know, it just adds a, like a, an extra shield of like confidence and like light for yourself.Eddy: Yeah. And that's another form of language too, because you know what we do to our bodies and how we shape them, it helps attract a certain kind of people to us. I feel like, you know, in the tattoo community, part of why we band together is because we look at each other and see something common in each other. Tahlia: Definitely. And like, I think that's something that's so like hyper special about the tattoo industry is it's kind of like um, and I say this in like a good term, like, it's like a bunch of wierdos, we're all completely different. We're all kind of slightly outcast. We don't really have a place, but we have this one thing that bonds us together. And, you know, even like our friendship, you know, there's like so many things that make us different to each other, but then, you know, there's like this connection of that. And like, you know, just like. Just, you know, our personalities, you know, you just love each other, you know, you're just like, wow, these people are awesome. These are my people. We might not be the same, but we're just a bunch of weirdos kind of hanging out. Eddy: It's so good because you know, you start a conversation through tattooing and then you form relationships and you get to know people and just that diversity and, and like learning to accept and love people so different to you. It makes you such a better person. And I feel like it makes your work better too. Tahlia: Yeah, definitely. I mean, like you learn different like views and like different things in life that you can kind of like take from each other and like learn from each other. Like that's, that's amazing. Eddy: It's so good. Well, you, um, you mentioned before about traveling, you've traveled so much in your career and even like from the get go from when you first started tattooing, like where has that taken you in the world?Tahlia: Um, I mean, like I've been so, so lucky to be able to travel as much as I can. Um, even like, you know, how I've kind of gotten into tattooing from that like it kind of started as a bit of the creative journey. Like I remember years ago when I used to hang out in tattoo studios, hang out with like, Um, some like friends of mine that, you know, we had a lot of creative endeavors that we'd kind of do together. And I remember this old tattooer, uh, like said to me, like, you need to leave, you need to travel as much as you can. And like, he was kind of saying like, you know, this is the future of tattooing, you know, going out and like, as time went on, I'm like, you know, and I traveled a lot and I got influenced by different things. Like I also saw, I mean, cause especially in Australia with such like a tight knit tattoo community and like, we also like because of our like government suppressing kind of our indigenous culture. We don't have a lot of culture here. You know, we're like an amalgamation of our immigrants and like people that have kind of bought little bits here and there, but it's all been kind of watered down over time, you know?And then you go to somewhere, like when I lived in Mexico, there's just such a, a vibrant culture. And like that influences the artwork of... people, which then influences like the tattoo culture, you know, and you see like you go there and you go to a place and you bring something back that you like took and then, you know, like all that you learnt from people and then, you know, you show other people and then they take it. And the coolest thing about that is like, every time you see you know, a friend of yours or another tattoo artist, they go overseas they learn something and they take something back, they bring it back here and then other people are like, wow, that's so cool. You know, like, and then they take their own spin on it. And then that kind of like grows into something even bigger and better. And then, you know, like even like in, in Sydney, like in New South Wales, we recently had a, um, Japanese art exhibition at the, um, the museum. Eddy: That was amazingTahlia: Yeah. It's like a lot of artists, like a lot of tattoo artists went there and like all of a sudden you seeing all this really wacky cool, inspired like artwork because obviously everybody's gone they're like whoa, how did I miss this? How did I not see this? Or think of this, you know? And everybody's creating their own versions of it. Eddy: YeahTahlia: And I mean, you know, especially like, you know, it's just, I don't know. It's just really cool to see, like that's how art kind of progresses and grows you know. And I like becomes its own like things of everything.Eddy: That's such an important part of tattoo history as well. Like that's how we came to know tattooing through traveling. And obviously colonialism is not in any way, shape or form a good thing at all and it's been toxic, but you know, the, the one good thing, I guess for us is that it did bring tattooing to the Western world and the fact that we continue to travel and sample from different cultures and share ideas and perspectives with each other is what makes tattooing so diverse now.Tahlia: Yeah, definitely. And the amount of times you've kind of like you've had this small snippet of something and somebody is doing something so amazing. And then you go to a place and you realize that they were just this tiny, like subculture of a giant, like main culture of an area, you know, and you just kind of like, wow, this is so cool. Like, I mean, sometimes especially like if I'm feeling a little bit like, um, you know, like stuck for, you know, what kind of creative direction. Cause I mean, personally myself, I always feel like I need to be doing and creating something off there and you know, like growing in some kind of way. And I always find, you know, going back into something all are looking at maybe like a, a culture that you didn't like that you didn't know that much about, you know, and you go back through and you're like, Whoa, like this is insane, you know? Like, and then in yourself I feel like, how the hell is this not like, what's big right now. Like how come, like, everybody doesn't know about this. Like I've watched like, um, I mean, not that I would ever like use anything from there, but like a, a real sacred culture is like the Inuit culture. I mean, in like, um, the Northern parts of America and Alaska and that, and obviously there that we're using like the I think it's like the seal fat. I watched like a documentary on it and they do the threading with the tattoos and it was just amazing. Like it's such a lost culture and it was just like watching that. And I was like, how come? Like nobody. Okay. And I was talking to people about it at the studio the next day. And everybody was like, nah, I didn't know what you talking about. And I was like, Oh, you got to go watch this. Like, it's, it's amazing. You know, now all I think about, I just want to go there and I want to meet this young girl that I watched on this documentary. And I just want to be like, Oh my gosh, like, how do you do this? Not, not even like for myself, but I just, I want to know the history of it. It's, it's amazing. You know, like, and also that was like quite a, like, um, It was like a matriarchal kind of thing. So it was only like really the women that will like, so it's like a coming of age thing as well, which is also really amazing. So just that so Eddy: I feel like that's really rare in like tattoo history, because I guess, you know, our knowledge of tattoo history has been in predominantly patriarchal societies. So finding out about the Inuit tattooing is so amazing. Tahlia: Yeah. And I mean, like also don't take like any of my information as like proper information. I'm so bad at relaying. Like for anyone that is... look it up yourself, you'll learn so much.Eddy: Yeah, I'm, I'm really bad at remembering historical stuff. I'm very fascinated by history. I read a lot and watch a lot, but my brains a pudding and I have no recall whatsoever. Tahlia: I think I just get so excited about what I'm reading that I'm just like, Oh, this is so good. And then I'm trying to tell people and my brains like stuttering it out so.Eddy: But just the excitement that you get over, like reading about another culture or seeing a trick someone uses it doesn't mean that you're necessarily going to use it yourself, but it can inspire just a new way of thinking. And then you adapt that into your work and then it becomes even more unique and more authentic to yourself. Tahlia: I mean, like for sure also there was like, um, when I first started kind of hanging out in tattoo studios and getting to know tattooers and stuff. I remember like these kind of old school guys that I was working for were like, well, there's this process of tattooing and it's this way. And it's that way. And I mean, like, as I've gone on and I've traveled around the world, like all of a sudden you're like meeting these people and they're like, well, no, like, you know, we get told like, you know, you can't tattoo without like, you know, a solid black line around it, but then you're looking at these like old cultures that are just using like, just like a light blue ink or something, you know, it just like, this is just a tiny example of it, but you know, like you you're told that like a certain way is wrong.Like same with like, um, when people say to you like, Oh, you know, Like you'll hear some like old school Trad guys sometimes be like, Oh, you know, it has to be Trad because if it's anything else, it doesn't last, you know, it's like, that's how it tattooing is. That's how it's always been. It's like, well no. Like, you know, if you look back on like certain cultures, actually they were doing a lot of fine line stuff then, or like these cultures would just using like, just colors and not like, you know, they weren't really using like a solid kind of base. I mean, definitely there's the technical application that needs to be like, mastered with stuff like that. Like, I'm not saying that everybody should tattoo without lines, but like, you know, like there's, you know, it's there's stuff that's doable and you know, if you're, if you teach yourself right, like, you know, you can, you can experience and like, kind of break a bit of the, the norms and the barriers of what tattooing kind of should be as well.Eddy: Exactly. It's like, it's important to respect traditions, but also disrupt them like, and to, to push, to push the boundaries and not be gatekeepers. Cause I, you know, I've, I have a, a history of being a little bit gatekeepery with my opinions about what tattooing is and isn't, but then like the older I get and the longer I'm in tattooing, the more I realize that we don't benefit from being that way at all, that the more people push boundaries, the more they try the more they offer different perspectives the better tattooing will be in the long run. Tahlia: I mean like, um, when I first moved to Europe, when I like really properly started tattooing, um, when I was living, I was living in Berlin at the time. Like, um, I mean, Berlin, as anybody who knows anything about Berlin is such a like forefront on like arts and like, you know, different subcultures. I mean, like there was all kinds of, I mean, Surrealistic like abstract kind of stuff going on. And I remember going there and I was just like, what the hell is this? Like I remember before I left Australia years ago and like lived abroad, I remember seeing someone with a blacked out limb and being like, Whoa, that's so extreme. Like, I don't know if I could ever do that. And I mean, Like years later, I was tattooing and I was just like, Holy shit like, I can totally understand why everybody's pushing these weird barriers, you know? And like you meeting people that are just like, well, you know, and you're like, well, no, it's this way. You know? And it has to be like a pretty picture. And like, I remember being told a lot, like. You know, you can't get this because it's not feminine and you can't do that. Like that's too aggressive. I mean, like, does it make me any less of a woman having a black arm? Eddy: No.Tahlia: I don't think so, but you know what I mean? Like, it's just like.Eddy: You still identify a woman, regardless of what tattoos you have. Tahlia: Yeah. Like it doesn't matter what you look like. Or, what’s there? Like if, if you're a woman, you're a woman. Like if that's, what if that's what I am, than I am, you know? Eddy: No one has a right to prescribe anything like that. And yeah, it's like when people say to me, Oh, I really want a tattoo, but it has to be feminine because like, you know, I don't want my parents to judge me and it's just like, well, it doesn't have to be anything. It's just going to be what you like, what imagery do you enjoy? What makes you happy? And you get that because then that's a part of you.Tahlia: Exactly just to come from, like compliment yourself. Eddy: Yeah. That's where it can be difficult as well, knowing where to draw the line technically with tattoos, you know, sometimes people will come to me and say, I want this. And I'll be like, Oh, from a technical point of view, I don't feel comfortable making that to tattoo because I know it's not going to last, however, this person's also got the right to say no, but I want that tattoo because that'll make me feel happy. And then if they've been informed of the possible longterm effects, then yeah. That opens up a whole other that's a whole other kettle of fish though. Tahlia: No, no, no. I mean, I think this is an interesting thing to talk about. Like, I definitely, like I have this a lot, like, um, a lot of my work nowadays has quite like bold lines and solid color. And I have to like often tell people, look, I don't really feel that comfortable making it that small, you know, like, especially with the trend of like micro tattoos and stuff. And this was what I was saying before about like, stuff is not impossible, but technically it has to be done in a certain way. So like, you can't really get a big traditional eagle and make it, this big because I mean, you're going to end up with a blob and I mean, as much as people would say no, no, but that's what I want, that's what I want. I mean, I would love to do that, but I would also hate to think that I would do something that someone would dislike in the future. And I'll be pretty honest with people, you know, because I mean, we've all kind of, especially like. Like as tattoo artists, or if you've been getting tattooed for a very long time, like there's probably stuff you look back on you, like in hindsight, I kind of wish that somebody had kind of guided me a bit better to that, you know?And I mean, I have plenty of tattoos on myself that I got when I was like a little bit of a ratbag when I was younger. And like, when somebody is like, Oh, well, you know, this would be cool and I show them and I'm like, well, this is what it's going to look like now. And they're kind of like, Oh, that's a bit horrible. It's like, yeah, we do have things like laser and that now. But if you're going to be like spending your time, you might as well do the right thing. And I think, like on the subject of that as well, a lot of the time when people do kind of want stuff like micro or they want it in a way that's not really going to work a lot of the time, it's not so much, like, it's more fear of like, they want to be tattooed, but they're also scared of like the outcome. They don't want it to be because they're worried that they're not going to like it. Or like, you know, Eddy: What other people will think?Tahlia: Where someone's like oh my partner won't like it, my parents won't like it, and it's like I dunno. I think if you're going to commit to it, you probably should just like do it the right way straight off the bat, because you know, like if there's one thing I can tell you, like, people like perfect example, like my parents were a little bit like, when I told them I was getting my arm black out they were like, Ooh, I don't know about that. You know? But like, and like, I remember even like my, my stepdad, like he's amazing and he was like, look Tahlia, just, don't get you face, your throat or your hands tattooed. And I mean, as you can see by this, I definitely didn't listen, but I think a lot of older generation, they have this like, perceived thing that will like, you know, bikeys and then like this thing of like the females are like, you know, like we're like somehow controlled by bikeys or like they're going to perceive us in this, like really, you know, that kind of, um, I don't know how to word it properly, but like, you know how to, they think that we're going to be like this biker wife, you know, owned by some kind of gang or we're going to be kind of badass drug dealer if we get it, you know, and then we get it and they're like, Oh, that's beautiful. I love it. You know, I'm like. Eddy: Yeah.Tahlia: You’re not going to disown you because of a tattoo, they're gonna like eventually get over it. And I mean, if they decide to disown you because you have tattoos, I mean, well, nobody should ever treat you like that. And maybe, you know, you have to realize that that's within themselves and that's nothing to do with you. Eddy: Exactly. It's really interesting how people like restrict what they can get tattooed because they're so scared of not fitting into this like socially prescribed version of normal and like, you know, studies have been done about how women with tattoos are perceived as being more sexually promiscuous. And then that brings up all these things of like, well, for starters, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being sexually promiscuous. You do you. And then also, how can a tattoo have any impact on a person's like sexual adventures. It's just like, it's so irrelevant and it's so weird that people would restrict how they express themselves on their own skin because of another person, it's sad.Tahlia: I mean, if I ever have a client come in, regardless of gender or anything, if they say anything to me about, Oh yeah, my partner said, I can't get this. I'm literally like dump them. You don't need that in your life. And people are like, Whoa, that's really harsh. And I'm like, well, no, if anybody has that kind of say over you, then they're probably toxic, you know, like you shouldn't be, I mean, fair enough. If somebody is worried about your like physical safety, you know, or like your mental health, you know, if your partner's like, Oh, you know, I don't think you should get that cause you're not in a good head space. You know, if it's something really gnarly and negative. You know, if they want to get some big curse words or something and you know, their partner's like, Oh, they're not in the best head space. You know, it'd be a little bit like I would also, regardless of if they had a partner or not, I'd probably be like, look, this is a pretty gnarly thing to be getting are you show you're in the right space for this, you know, maybe you should think about it, you know? But like, I mean, if somebody is telling you what to do in that kind of way, that's a very toxic environment to be a part of.Eddy: A hundred percent. Tahlia: You know? And then I also think like, from that, I'm like, if they're saying that about your tattoos, what else are they saying? Like, this is probably not good for you. Eddy: Exactly. I remember many years ago. I tattooed, I outlined a half sleeve on a girl and I found out a couple of weeks later that her partner didn't like it because it reminded him of a tattooer, he didn't like the style that I had done. And he made her get it lasered off. And then he chose the artist who would redo it. And it was just like such a horrifying thought, just so horrifying that somebody like felt they had a right to control because the whole reason that we're attracted to tattooing is because it's our way of reclaiming ourselves. So when somebody else has an input in that, Like I, I certainly would never allow that to happen in my studio again, like wherever possible. I would just be like, no, get out well to the, not to the customer, obviously to the partner, then I'd turn around to the client and say let's do a bigger and on your forearm.Tahlia: Yeah. I mean, like, um, yeah, I still get a little bit weird about doing partners names. Eddy: Oh.Tahlia: Like I've done them, but like, I mean, I'm still so so strange about it. I mean, if you're somebody that wants to get tattooed and you want your partner's name right now, like, listen to me, when I say this, just find an object, something that you both love, you know, get that tattooed, you know, because you never know what's going to happen in the future. You know? Like, and I mean, like, we all think we all want love to last forever. And I mean, sometimes it does, but you know, like sometimes I feel like like from my experience in studios sometimes I feel like it's more of a bad omen than what it is like a good one, you know? So I'm very, very hesitant to do it.I mean, if I have like an old couple and they're like, yeah, we've been married for this many years, you know, I'm a bit like, ah, okay then, but you know, if you kind of like doing it to prove you love a little bit. I guess so many other things you can do, like get their favorite band lyrics tattooed on you, before you get their name, you know, becauseEddy: ExactlyTahlia: I know plenty of people that have gotten like partner's names and they've had to like cross them out or do other stuff or you know and it's like, you just don't want that on you.Eddy: No. Well, I reckon 90% of the partners' names. I've tattooed on people within six months, they've broken up. And I think it's, it's not that the tattoos necessarily jinxed. I think that the reason they've done that was because there was something, there was underlying issues and they were so terrified of losing this relationship because of these ideas that love allegedly has to last forever. So they've gone and done this as this way of like proving it and cementing it and it doesn't work. And, yeah, you can't do that. Tahlia: Definitely, I mean sometimes like if somebody would tell me like, like I've had people come in before and they're like, I want to win my partner back. I want to get the name tattooed. I'm like, well, how about you go home? And you write a list of things that you could do. Like, you know, there's like, if there is there's problems there maybe address the problem. Not like try and bandaid it with a tattoo. Eddy: Yep.Tahlia: That's my advice, you know, and I'm no therapist, I think that, you know, uh, immortalising, something like just, just think about it. Eddy: Yeah. I usually tell people to get flowers or, you know, some sort of really organic image because you can apply whatever meaning you want to at any particular point in your life. It's so flexible and, you know, words are defined by a very precise meaning and especially a name? SoTahlia: Well, I think like in general, like talking about words of tattooing and I know I just get on tangents here, but that's like something I think as well, like a lot of people. I mean, like, I've got, like, I've got script on, on here. Some of my favorite like lyrics when I was younger. And I think like when you start to get tattooed, if you not, like, um, sometimes you can't picture exactly what you want all the time. And a lot of people gather a lot of like inspiration off like a quote that they read or like, you know, a song that they hear and they're like, I need that tattooed on me. But the thing is that thats our jobs as artists, like I have people contact me. Sorry, I got flies in the house, in the country house. Um, like sometimes, you know, um, I forgot where I was going with this. Oh yeah. That's right. Um, so like, you know, that's our thing as artist that, um, we need to. You know, we create like what you give us.Like, I have clients message me like that are like, Oh, this is my favorite band. So I get them to send me the song that they love, you know, and like the kind of lyric that kind of meant something to them. And, you know, if they're comfortable to, you know, like create something off that I will let find out what their kind of images, you know, they're listen to that. What do they kind of see when they hear that? You know, what do they feel? You know? And like, you know, Like created a lot of stuff based off that, and I think that it makes for really cool, unique tattoos. So if you have an idea, contact the artist you like, and kind of explain that to them, you know, because you'd be surprised how many, like artists are actually really looking forward to kind of, you know, just getting a little bit more like creative and it's, it's a challenge.Eddy: Yeah, that's it, it elevates the tattoo as well. I mean, you know, not all of our clients are creatives, you know, they can't always be expected to take it on themselves to have all the good ideas. And so it, it can be this like working back and forth where they express kind of what they want. But then if they're able to let, like, trust us to decide what to do with that visually, and then. You often end up with such a better tattoo.Tahlia: Yeah definitely, especially if you're doing the right thing with your tattoos, and you're looking up an artist that you like, I mean, whatever you tell them that they're going to create something you like, you know, or if like, they do an amalgamation of styles, kind of send them the vibe that you like of theirs, you know, the color palette that they use and be like, well, you know, here's this idea I have. And this was what I really loved that you did. And, you know, straightaway your artist is going to be like, Oh, okay. No, I understand what you mean. You know, rather than like, you know, feeling like you have to get it nailed. And I think that sometimes, especially like, you know, contacting artists can be a daunting thing.I still remember when I first got tattooed. Going into a studio. I mean, it's changing, you know, with studios like yours, with like, you know what we have at Great White, you know, it's a little bit more inviting environments, but you know, like the, the whole culture of tattooing used to be quite a daunting one to walk into a studio, you know? And it's, it's like, You know, a lot of people have kind of heard those experiences. So when they reach out to artists to, you know, get, get some work done and stuff, they, they feel like they have to have like a million notes in order, you know, and bring it in and have everything to the precise point, you know? And it's like, it is cool when we have an idea to run off. But you know, if you like allow a little bit of creative freedom, like everybody, everything works better. Yeah, it just has that organic flow then. Eddy: Absolutely. And I, I still now get people going and paying a designer to do a tattoo for them who aren't tattooers and who don't understand the complexity of complexities of how a tattoo design works. Then they bring that design they've paid for to me. And I'm like, I actually have to change it because it's not tattooable. And they've wasted all this time because you know, they've not been tattooed before or they've had really bad experiences and didn't understand that it's actually my job to do that for you. And to make sure it's the best possible version of that you can get. Tahlia: Well, that is also, I like for clients why, why are you paying a deposit for stuff. You're paying because you know, we're going to create something we're going to spend a lot of time. And this is another thing with tattoos. That like, I think a lot of people don't realize is most of the time we're spending so many hours, like the week or the day before, you know, to kind of create something like this up, you know, you have that security, you've given that idea and we're going to sit down with all these, like, things that you've given us and we're going to be like, okay, what can I do to make this the best that I can make it?You know? And I, I think, unfortunately I've seen, especially a lot more lately, like, um, with like, you know, the rise of being able to pay for sponsored ads and stuff on social media, you have a lot of, um, maybe like creatives that aren't able to kind of make a viable income off like their, their thing. And they're kind of um profiting a little bit and like targeting their marketing towards, you know, making people feel like, you know, that it's part of like the tattoo process, you know, they kind of selling it and like, I don't know, packaging it in a way that like, you know, this is actually a thing you need to have your stuff like predone, you know, and this is what I do. This is what I specialize in. Then, like you said, you know, that's, that's part of our, like what we do, but, you know, we you know, we're tattooers we don't really have like a, it's not like you look up and there's a job title on want a tattooer does. So Eddy: [Yeah. There's all sorts. Like there's some who literally just tattoo images off Google and that makes them happy and they see themselves more as tradespeople. Then there's those of us who are really only interested in doing custom pieces in our particular style and then everything in between. Tahlia: Yeah, definitely. I mean, like, I think, um, like any, anybody that tattoos it's important to know the technical side of things, but I think that whole, I mean, it used to be like the kind of Western like style of tattooing used to be walking to a studio would usually be like a pretty scary place. You know, like you see all the old films and old bikies sitting in the chair. I mean, it hasn't always been like thatEddy: Ciggies, carpet on the ground.Tahlia: It's just a majority of the places. Yeah. Like, you know, and it used to be picked out, they get the old stencil, they stick it on, you know, and like these days is it's way more of an experience. So like live it up, you know, like do it, like use, use your artists, like as you can, you know, work with them and you know, you're also, you're going to enjoy it a lot more, you know, like, um, like. You're gonna enjoy your artist is going to really enjoy it. And it's something that you connect on then, you know, by the time you come in to get tattooed, your artist is so stoked on it. Like the amount of times, like people send me really cool ideas and they're like, just do what you want. You know, I just want something like this and I'm just like, I'm writing them I'm like, yeah, this is so rad, I'm so excited. This is going to be awesome. And then I'm like, Oh, thats right I'm also, I have to be slightly professional. A lot of the time they come in, I feel like we're best mates from way back when, you know, and I'm like, Yeah, so what are we doing now? You know? And like, they leave. And from there, it's like, you know, you, you're friends, like, that's it, you know, like you see them in the street it's just like, how's it going? I'm like, what's going on? You know, it's really cool. Like what other, what other kind of job can you do where like that's, that's your day to day? Eddy: Yeah, you almost, um, become a part of their lives, even if you don't necessarily ever connect again after the tattoo, you've still had this like intimate and unique interaction that has marked their body and they will remember every time they look at it and yeah, the impact of that goes beyond even, even that initial tattoo experience. But yeah, we're so lucky.Tahlia: Definitely.Eddy: I did want to ask you actually, um, How you, how you got into tattooing. Cause I mentioned that before that I met you, um, when, before you even started your apprenticeship, like, and you've been tattooing for, what would it be like six years, five or six is now Tahlia: I think it's about five, I mean, it's so like, it was such a weird coming into it. I mean, like, I, I didn't...tattooing so it looks like lets wind it right back. So it all kind of started, I mean, I was always like into creative stuff, but, um, I, I had a trade I quit that and I was working part time for a freak show. So it was like a performance, um, like agency and these guys are like, nowadays they're all just my best mates. Um, you know, and like, That was like my first kind of, I liked tattoos and I'd had a few tattoos, but this was like, I met all these really like creative, weird people. And they like had all these really weird tattoos and I was just like, this is awesome. And because of the shows that we were doing was so like, um, niche underground, kind of like, it was more like, um, I did a lot of like fire stuff and like grotesque, burlesque kind of stuff.Eddy: That's awesome.Tahlia: And like, therefore, like a lot of people we met were other creators. So at these events that we were doing I'd meet other tattooers. So from there I was like, Hey, can I come and like, hang out at the studio and paint and draw. So I just would like hang out with people. And then I just, I ended up like helping run like front counters sometimes and someone would go away for the week. Um, I just like when friends would, so when we met in Melbourne, um, friends of mine would like work the convention and they'd be like, Hey, do you want to come across? And they'd let me sell my artwork in return for working in the booth for them for the weekend, you know? And I'd just like, get my flights and go out and hang out with everyone just cause.Like I just idolized. I was like, this is the greatest job in the world. And I mean, I, I created a lot, but I also, I had a lot of like self pressure where I was like, okay, tattooers are like up here. Their work is up here and my artwork has to be up there. So, I mean, I have moved away to Europe and then I was kind of still hanging out in studios, but not really doing a lot. And I had done a couple of tattoos. I was living in Brighton at the time. Um just at some friend's studios there just on like a few friends that I knew in the area. And I was just trying to like get out there, but I mean, it was good, but it was bad. Like, unfortunately and fortunately, I worked in like private studios when I did kind of like when I hung out, I was always in private studios. So it wasn't like they could be like, you're an apprentice. You can do some walk-ins or you can do that. So it's like, I kind of got to teach myself and watch other people use machines, but I was like, you know, they were like, if you want to learn, you can tattoo yourself or tattoo a friend. So, I meanEddy: Yeah. Tahlia: I'd done a couple. And then I moved to Berlin and I was trying to see if it was like, you know, at this point I just caught the bug. I was like, I w I want to do this. I want to do it seriously. And I was able to, um, score a job at a studio called Pechschwarz Tattoo in...which is like, um a darkwork studio and the artists there were just so high caliber and amazing, and really friendly and lovely. And I mean, I was pretty honest about stuff. Like I was like, look, I don't really know what I'm doing. Like I just want to apprentice. And they already had an apprentice and they were kinda like, look you just tattoo here. You do your jobs here. And they will like and, you know, you just work as an artist, but you just travel as much as you can. You travel and you like learn off everybody you can you take as much knowledge as you can? And it was until then I went to work within like the first month or two of kind of tattooing I was able to go and work a convention in Kassel, in central Germany, where I met friends from a studio called Green Pearl, which is in Braunschweig in Germany.And, um, I used to go out there and I used to just like, that was my first experience of doing walk-ins, which was like, you know, at this point I was a bit fake it till you make it. So like I'm there and they're just throwing me all these walk ins. And I'm with all these amazing tattooers, and I was just like sweating and like, Oh my God, am I going to do this? Okay. People are coming over. I'm waiting for them to be like, Oh, this is shit. But they're like, Oh cool, man. Like awesome. You know, everybody was just so friendly and nice. And then, I mean, I was just, I dunno, I like, from there, I just met so many people just going to different places. So I was just like, okay, anytime somebody invites me somewhere, I would just go there. And then from there, I just ended up being able to like, I got invited to the Nepal tattoo convention and I tattooed around Nepal. I ended up working at Parliament Tattoo in London. I got invited to work there with a friend. I worked in Brighton a lot. Um, worked in, um, Krakow in Poland. I worked at a couple of conventions there. I worked in Italy and Spain a lot. I did a lot of work in Spain. Um, I think I'm forgetting a few places. Eddy: It's like, initiation by fire.Tahlia: Oh yeah. Like I was way out of my depth. Like, and I was just like so grateful and I mean, I was also like, I can't, I felt like I couldn't turn down the opportunities because, you know, I was like, if I tell them no, like, I'm not really ready then like, would I have that opportunity again? And like, I just got to, like, everybody was just so lovely. I mean like sometimes I think like, people, like I've said before, they, they build up tattoo is like, they're these scary things, you know? And then you meet them and they're just so awesome. And I mean, when I would go there, I would end up getting to talk to the people and I'd be like, Oh, you know, actually I haven't been tattooing long and they're just like, yeah, good on you. You know, this is awesome. And you know, they'd give you constructive criticism. And I mean, like, As long as you were nice to everyone, I mean, I'd just walk around and be like, how did you do that? That's amazing. You know, they would just stoked to share it. They're like, Oh, you think that's really cool? Like, well, I think this is cool. You know, you're just bouncing off one another. And I think that was the difference. Like Eddy: Yeah.Tahlia: It was just like really lucky. Eddy: Yeah. I love that there's different ways to enter tattooing because like, if we all had the exact same like apprenticeship situation or whatever things wouldn't be as diverse or interesting. Like the fact that you've got to travel the world learning along the way is what makes your work yours.Tahlia: Oh, thank you. I mean, I think also like, like I said, I was very lucky. I had some very good mentors. Um, like some of the places I would hang out, like I got offered, um, a lot of apprenticeships before I left Australia. And I remember a few of the older guys that I worked with and that like mentored me. Um, they kind of said like, you know, you don't like because of this underlying in a few of the studios, especially like at that point in time, on the West coast of Australia, unless you were an amazing artist straight away, like you kind of, your only choice from there was to work in these like kind of misogynistic, kind of sexist like underlying places, you know? And they were like, you know, you don't want to work somewhere you're a little bit owned by the studio. Like in, you know, there was this a lot of kind of dodgy stuff going on and, you know, I wanted to tattoo so bad, but I'm really glad I had good like mentors around that were like get out while you can, you know, like, you know, and I'm kind of like, but this is the wrong way to do it.And they're like, that's when I had people, like, not like you do it, however you do it, you know? Kind of like get in there. I mean, and I'm not an advocate, like when I'm telling my story, I'm not an advocate for like, you know, tattoo at home and do this. Like, I never did any of that. Like, you know, I mean, like I'm not. I still believed in a safe practice. I went and did my occupational health and safety before I started tattooing. And I've only ever like tattooed in studios, you know, or in like a safe environment like that. Like I, I think sometimes there's a little bit of a blurred line with people when they're like, you know, when they say, Oh, you know, you don't need to have a traditional kind of apprenticeship, like I totally agree with that. But I also would say like, you know, you have to make sure that you're having a safe practice. And at the end of the day, like, you know, there is, there is definitely a technical application that you need to learn. Eddy: You do need a mentor.Tahlia: Like everybody learns in their own different way, but yeah, like there is like, there is some technical stuff you have to learn. I mean, like I learned that pretty quick that like, just because I could draw something on paper didn't mean I could tattoo it. Like, and, and even now, like sometimes I feel like when I tattoo for a long time and I don't have a lot of time to draw. Sometimes I feel like my tattooing abilities surpasses my drawing ability. And you know, you've got to kind of notch it back together. Like, because at the end of the day, it is two different crafts it's like it's like doing like, you know, drawing sketching with a pencil and then painting with oils and expecting to be an amazing oil painter cause you good with pencils, you know, it's like it's two different things.Eddy: Absolutely. That's what, um, you know, like I've mentioned in previous interviews, how, you know, we're so privileged, like will those of us who are comfortable, like to be able to actually use this time to practice those skills again and kind of, you know, when we go back to tattooing, we'll have like being able to build other skills up to a point where, you know, everything's a bit more balanced.Tahlia: Yeah, definitely like, um, I think that, you know, it's, it's important to keep, like I think I see it with a lot of people. I did it a lot myself as well. Like I was lucky enough to kind of get, um, like I kind of, I was drawing all the time. I was painting all the time and I was so much like involved in my art. And then I started tattooing and I felt like that was maybe after a year or two of tattooing. I felt like my work was kind of becoming a little bit repetitive, like for my own liking, but I think a lot of it was to do with like, more of, I just wasn't taking the time to draw anymore. Like I was just so excited to tattoo that all I did was tattoo to the point that like I think then I had like a little while where I was like, Oh, well, what do I draw now? You know, because I'd just gotten so into this process of like what I would do to do a tattoo that when I got to sit down in front of a piece of paper, my brain was up. It's just like, nah you've used all that up now.Eddy: Yeah, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves as well to like, do everything perfectly and it's not really realistic. And, uh, you know, we've, we've talked about many times about like all of these like external pressures that we put on ourselves and how, you know, we're all ending up getting really burnt out and tattoo. Like I know so many tattooers who have been like, Oh, I've just been so burnt out lately. Like almost thankful that lockdown happened. And like, do, were you feeling that way as well? Tahlia: Um, definitely like I think, um, I mean, I I've had like moments of, uh, I think now I'm able to kind of better adjust to that. Like, I feel like I had my moment where I burnt out a bit and then I had the kind of go wait and like reel it back a bit. I mean, I think there's the co like there's, there's different pressures. So there's like the personal pressure, like the, you know, we want to be able to do, because we have to create all the time. There's this kind of thing to create on demand, you know? And like, sometimes you can't do that. Sometimes you have a bit of a creative block. It doesn't mean that what you create, isn't going to be amazing for somebody, but it just means like, as far as you creating something new and innovative, You're just maybe like a little bit, you just need to relax and like take some time whether what it is that relaxes you whether you take a ride on your motorbike, or you go out to nature for a bit, you know, something that just kind of resets and takes you out of the studio, you know, and like, um, you know, there's also this like, this social pressure. I mean, with like social media these days, especially like Instagram, I mean personally myself with all this like COVID stuff, like I'm looking online and like, I mean, I've gotten my gardens going. I've been looking after all the farm animals. Yeah. I've done lots of stuff. But then I was finding myself, hopping on Instagram and I'm like, Oh, everybody's painting.Everybody's like selling like originals. And they're doing all of this amazing stuff. And I'm sitting here going well, how come like, you know, I managed to get up and make lunch today and like sort the garden out. And then I'm like, Oh, I need to leave my garden and I need to paint. I should be doing my greatest work right now. You know? And like you find yourself, like even though you don't mean to you're like comparing yourself to other people and I mean like, back when I first started tattooing Instagram was like pretty like, it was like prevalent, but it wasn't like huge. And I mean, you know, nowadays, like, like you used to know the artists because they were the artists in your area, in your city, you'd read tattoo magazines. And that's how you'd find cool people. Whereas these days, literally, if I want to hop on my phone right now, I'm just like, exposed to the greatest tattoo artists in the world, the greatest artists in the world. So you just, you're looking and you're like, Oh my God. You know, and everybody's doing their own individual thing, but you're not seeing that.You're just seeing an amalgamation of like amazing, different everything, you know? And you're like, Oh God, like, why am I no good at this? You know? And like, we also have, like, it's more of like an old school mentality, but there's like this thing of like, Um, like, it's kind of cool to overwork yourself when your tattoo, like, if you talk to artists that like, when like tattoo conventions are the perfect example of what you know, we'll tattoo for 12 to 14 hours straight, we do it for three days. And I mean, that's fun when you work at convention. Sometimes it's fun to burn yourself out a little bit, you know, but like, you know, people are just. They just take the work because it's there, you know, and they're just working and working, working, you know, and like they're burning themselves out. They're not like eating properly. They're not like, you know, a lot of the time, you know, they're kind of like going out and having a few drinks and like dinner with friends afterwards, you know? And they're like, They kind of like get some weird satisfaction from it, because somewhere along the line, some old school guys told us, you know, if you're not working, like, you know, then like, like for some reason, like we're made to feel guilty.Eddy: Yeah.Tahlia: If we decide that we need to take a day off a week, because we want to like, you know, get something else going. Or like, you know, if you're like, well, I'm working way too much, you know, like I, I took a day off a week so that I could you know, do my drawings to the best of my ability, because I feel like if I take that extra time, then like, you know, I create something better than if I'm just like putting it on, on the morning of like the thing, you know, but I don't know. It's just, it's this weird thing. And it's like, Nobody talks about it. Like nobody's really gonna make you feel bad about it, but you kind of have this weird guilt sometimes when you're like, Oh, you know, I need to work a little less than sometimes, you know, you're like, Oh, is everybody going to look down on me or think I'm weak because I need to take a bit of time to create.Eddy: Yeah.Tahlia: But I think also like a lot of people that do over work. They work in studios where they're doing a lot of walk-ins and like, they're not really like thinking about the stuff that they're creating a lot of stuff. So maybe they do like one of their own flash pieces. But for the rest of the week, they're doing like, you know, somebody that comes in and says, I want this picture. I want this. So they're doing that after like one after the other. And I mean that still can burn you out. But I mean, when you're doing what you do, what I do, what a lot of artists do, where you're like putting a bit of yourself into everything you create for somebody you just like mentally and physically cannot spend all your time doing that. Like if I'm working seven days a week doing three or four tattoos a day, Like by like Saturday, Sunday, how am I going to make the best work that I can? Because all I'm thinking is I need a good sleep. Eddy: Yep.Tahlia: I need to get out of the studio. Like I've traveled when I first started tattooing, I took that on board so hard and I just wanted to work so much that like for a while there, when I was traveling, like I did a three month trip with my friend, Laura, that I was working in Berlin with and we went to Italy, we went to Spain. Um, Where else, there was somewhere else we went, but there was like a few places that we traveled to. And then the three months, I didn't see anything. The first time I went to Spain, I spent most of my time in Barcelona. I hadn't even seen the beach. Eddy: Oh my god.Tahlia: Like we literally just stayed in a studio the whole time. I went Milan. All I can tell you about Milan is I went to. Well, I was lucky enough, actually, I got to go to some fashion shows in the nighttime, but we'd just been so busy that like, by the time we went there, I was so burnt out. I couldn't take in the fact that I was in fashion week. Like with you know, at an exclusive like NIKE and ADIDAS party, like, you know, all I was thinking was I just need to sleep. I need to draw these jobs for tomorrow and I need to work. Like know, I can't like you couldn't be. And at some point, and I think that also prompted, you know, when I moved to Mexico for a while, Like, it's a very slow, relaxed kind of lifestyle. And I think that's what, like drew me to it when I was living in Europe, I was like, so fast paced and tattooing all the time.And everybody I worked with was so heavily into that, that I like was so into this place where I was like, wow, everybody just wakes up. They go and do a little bit of work and then they relax. They take a lunch break, you know, like, and nowadays I think like, You know, I try and I think maybe I went from like so fast paced to so relaxed and I feel like coming back here was a little bit more of like, okay, let's like work is like, To the best of our abilities and then, you know, go home and like, relax and enjoy like, you know, our family, our pets, our garden, our plant babies, whatever we want, you know, take the time to really enjoy stuff like that.Eddy: Absolutely. It's so important to get that balance. Like I burnt myself out so hard and I always had these like ideas in my head that I had to be here for the studio to make sure that all the artists who work here were happy and that I was doing everything I could for them. And then I had to be there for my clients to make sure I was doing the best work for them. And I had to do all of these things and I had to do a lot of it to please everyone. And that I forgot about myself. And then I kind of realized like, what's the point of living if you're in, you're not enjoying it. What's the point of creating art if, if you're not able to actually put any thing of value into it, and then like, what's the point of, you know, being there for, you know, my colleagues, if I'm just angry and tired, like it's just, it's crazy. And tattooing is....Yeah, and it's, it's such a strange thing that tattooers have developed that attitude because it's such a capitalist attitude and we're meant to be pirates. It doesn't make sense. Tahlia: Yeah, I mean, not like how many, like as soon as we got put into lockdown how many tattooers was stressed about not working and do you know what that was? I mean, go back. Like a year. I was like, I'm in, I'd say like, I've made some of my biggest changes to that in the last year. I mean, I would be having a full mental breakdown if you go back a year or two, not being able to have work because you know, like it got to the point that, I mean, I love tattooing with all my heart and soul, and I always have like, and just like creating, but I mean, it got to the point where I had no life besides tattooing. Like my life was going to work early and then being the last one to leave because, you know, I just stay and paint. Like, I, I didn't bother with like relationships. I didn't like bother like everything.Like my friends were everybody I tattooed with. I didn't bother having a partner because I didn't want the time for it. Like, I I've always wanted pets. But I didn't have pets because I was like, Oh, well, I don't want to have to look after them because I want to be able to go and tattoo. I'd have a day off and I'd go into the studio and the guys at work all would be like, well, what are you doing? I'd be like, just in the area because I had nothing else to do, you know? Everything that I could. It's like, I feel for people that have done that to their life, because now that we're not tattooing, like, you know, you have to take a that's what happened to me? Like you have to take a hard, look at yourself and be like, wow, like, you know, this is something that I've like invested so much in my life in that, like, I don't have anything besides that, you know?And I think it's important to have that balance, you know, because. It did get to that like, my inspiration was all just tattoo inspiration. And then, you know, when I took a step back and I went back to doing the things I enjoy doing, like going for long hikes, you know, like I started taking Mondays off and I called Mondays adventure Mondays. And every Monday I'd go for a big hike by the time I'd go to work on Tuesday, I'd be physically exhausted, but I would also just be like, Oh, I did this and I saw that and like, it just got me out of that, like that habit, like I saw something different and I was like just fresh perspective. Like all of a sudden my work started going in like different directions and yeah, it's just, it's, it's very important.Eddy: Oh, that's so awesome. Yeah. Well if, to any of our listeners who are tattooers, who've been in that kind of situation, where their, they've invested all of their self worth in tattooing, what, what would you suggest if anything? Tahlia: I mean, everybody's got the different things. I mean, like, obviously we have like hobbies and passions besides tattooing like, even if it's something as simple as if you still want to do something creative, like go and do a life drawing course, or like, you know, an extra art course or something, something away from it find like a different medium, or like, you know, another thing I've like, I've done, which I enjoyed is like just volunteer work at places, go and volunteer somewhere. Obviously, you know, you're tattooing that much. You don't need to go and hustle and make money off something. And I think that that's something that like, you know, being self employed, kind of, you can get into that bubble of feeling like you need a hustle all the time, you know, and like make money off every creative endeavor, but go and do something that you can't make money off.Eddy: Yeah. Tahlia: You know like going like knit or paint, like go and ask someone if they got a free wall and go and paint their wall for them or something, you know, like just do something that breaks you out of the cycle of like, you know, It being so much of work, you know, or like, you know, go on a date. It's not going to kill you. I mean, like, I definitely, it was like, I was afraid of people, like, you know, I was like, Oh, I can't get close to anyone because you know, work is everything, you know, and like, You just go and treat yourself, take yourself out for a nice dinner. Like one of my really good friends, like I rang her up and she was in Scotland and I was like, what are you doing? And she's like, just taking myself for a date, you know? And you know, it's like, she took a day off work, took herself for a day and made herself feel better. And I was like, Oh God, I've never done that. Like, I never would think of that. You know? So like, just think of like, Think of someone you really love and if they were like, if they needed a break, what would you do for them? And then just do that for yourself. Eddy: That's a really good point. Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. I'm going to do that. I'm going to take myself for a date tomorrow. Tahlia: It's so good. I mean like also another thing I love to do when I take myself for a day, Is when I sit down, I like table for one, I'm like, Oh no table for two, please. I'm just waiting on my date and then seeing their face and like, Oh, they just didn't show up...it's a horrible thing to do.Eddy: Hey, you got to take the joy where you can. Tahlia: Yeah.Eddy: Well, before we finish up today, is there anything else you wanted to touch on?Tahlia: Um, I don't know, I could ramble on for a million years. I'm in like, I've already expressed for this my love for you guys as well. Um. Eddy: I love you. Tahlia: I mean, for anyone. Well, I can't wait till I can come visit you guys.Eddy: Aww, I miss you so much.Tahlia: But I mean like, with like tattooing, I mean, I'm just like, I can't wait to go back I like, I'm just super excited to like, you know, see my clients again, meet new people, travel more, you know, like it's been such a wild ride to get to here.I'm super excited to see kind of what the future of tattooing holds. And there's just that many amazing artists out there. And like, you know, I, I have the absolute pleasure to say that a lot of those amazing people are my friends as well. You know, like I I feel really, really, really blessed to be able to be inspired by the people that come and eat dinner at my house with me, and like, you know, meet up for coffee. You know like, it's, it's pretty awesome. And like, you know, it's the people that like are collecting tattoos and let like contact us and that really dig our art, like I just like I just pinch myself every day and I'm like, wow, people actually like what I'm doing. I'm so so I stoked on that and I'm stoked that a lot of people share that same kind of vibe as me, you know, and just like, appreciate everything about it.Eddy: We are the luckiest people on the planet, I think, in the universe, even Tahlia: Yeah and like, if anybody, if anybody ever sees this and they want to like reach out and chat about art, about tattooing like I kind of, I swear I'm not a scary person. Sometimes it might take me a few days to answer, but I do love like, hearing and seeing art projects. Like, I love when like, you know, people that follow me on Instagram, they like message me and like, Hey, I drew this, what do you think of that? Like, and I just love that. Like, I love like supporting people, like if you're creating in any kind of for yourself or if you're pursuing to be a tattooer. Like just support as many people as you can support local artists, support, local business, you know, like Eddy: AbsolutelyTahlia: That kind of thing. You know, like there there's no room for hate there's enough, like hate out there. So just like just bugger it off, you know, just find things you like. And if you find something really nice, like if you like something, don't just scroll past it, you know, make the effort to tell somebody because you know, like for like, as artists we're so self-critical like, you know, someone writing something really nice to us, or like commenting on something, you know, that could be what makes our day. That could be what, you know, you saying that you like, that could inspire us to create more of that. You know, like if you're not engaging with us and we're not really sure what you're into. So like, be like, you know, be more engaging with us and like, we can bring you exactly what you want. Like tell us what you want to see, like go for it. Eddy: That's awesome. Yeah. That's that is such a good thing to do. And it's so true about the whole, like, just being kind and spreading love it like that kind of optimism is really going to be what makes the world a better place moving forward.Tahlia: Yeah, definitely. And I really hope all of this time that we've had at home has kind of like sparked that, you know, it's definitely made me realize like how much you can get into doing it everyday life. And then you kind of like take for granted the fact that you know, like I drive two hours and I can be with you guys and hanging out, you know? And you kind of like, you know, even with family and any kind of friends, you know, you kind of take that for granted. And then something like this happens. You're like, Oh, I miss everyone. I really appreciate having those people in my life. And all of a sudden you're like, as soon as this is over, I'm going to go hug every single person and tell them how much I love them.Eddy: So many hugs after this. Oh my God. Tahlia: Although I feel like our pets will be very upset when we all return to work. Eddy: Yeah. The cats are going to be devastated. Like my, my exotic short hair, my little squish face boy, he like, he spends hours just sitting on Aaron's lap, staring into Aaron's eyes, just full of love. And he's so happy Aaron's home all the time now. Tahlia: So good though, I mean, if there's anyone, that's like not hating COVID. It's definitely our pets. Eddy: Yeah. All the doggos in the world having the best time going for walks every day. Tahlia: Oh, yeah, they're all just like yeah best day ever.Eddy: Aww, little angels. Well, for, for our listeners, um, if you'd like to watch the footage of this chat, you can head over to our YouTube and follow us on Instagram at not just a girl underscore tattoo for regular updates. I'll be sure to link Tahlia's information if you want to contact her, um, and follow her. And um, any other information in the show notes, um, make sure you subscribe and follow and share and spread the love of tattooing. Um, thank you so much for joining me Tahlia. It's been so amazing and thank you so much to all of our listeners. Um, I hope everyone has a wonderful day if they can and get out there and spread the love and be kind and don't take anything for the granted.

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notjustagirltattoopodcast · 4 years

Text

Not Just A Girl: Destroy Normal

You can listen to the fifth episode with Brody Calypso here. Or you can view the footage of this interview on YouTube with English subtitles/closed captions here.

NOT JUST A GIRL: Tattoo Podcast

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Season 1, Episode 5: Destroy Normal

Eddy: Hello friends and welcome to Not Just A Girl, the feminist tattoo podcast where every week I talk to some of my favorite tattooers about their lives and art practice. I'm Eddy and thank you for joining me for episode five. Today we'll be talking about client safety, how tattoos can change your relationship with your body and the importance of diversity.

Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are the traditional custodians of this land that was stolen and never ceded. I'm honored and grateful to be on the ancestral land of the Awabakal people. And I pay my respect to the Elders past and present and extend my recognition to their descendants.

Today we are joined by the fabulous Brody Calypso. They work at Crucible Tattoo in Melbourne, and they do a really diverse variety of tattooing, particularly neo traditional, with a little bit of queer flavor here and there, lots of Australian flora and fauna. Um, I've had the great privilege of working with Brody at my studio when they've guested. Um, and the way they hold such a kind and welcoming space for their clients has had a huge impact on my own work practice. Um, thank you so much for joining me today, Brody. Um, I've been so excited to chat to you.

Brody: Yes. Thanks for having me

Eddy: Absolutely. So, you know, talking about the way you interact with your clients. Um, something that really stood out to me the first time I ever saw you, um, working was the way, um, you like really include consent as in like every aspect of your work practice. Um, to give our listeners some insight. What's the tattoo process generally look like for you.

Brody: I guess the process to me usually comes, um, you know, I'll, I'll receive a brief from the clients. Um, and I like to do the design process pretty close to the actual tattooing time. So I don't tend to send out designs or anything like that because I like to keep it really immediate. So, um, generally, uh, when, when a client comes in, it'll be the first time they've seen a design. And so I'm really aware that that approach of my creative process, um, can kind of put people on the spot a little bit. So I try and go, um, I guess that extra mile to make sure there's heaps of space for people to, uh, I guess like voice, any doubts that they have about it.

You know, I think for a lot of people in our society, particularly the sort of people that I tend to tattoo more often, you know, like women, queers, you know, um, I guess people who are drawn to my work and my identity, my personality. Um, a lot of those people have been disempowered to make choices about their bodies for whatever reason. You know, there's a lot of complex social reasons for why that happens. Um, and you know, that's happened with me in the past in a variety of different contexts. You know, it's not always easy to say no, especially when there's a power dynamic, you know? Uh, so. You know, any, any, any situation we've got a power dynamic like that, whatever it looks like.

Um, for example, tattoo artist and client, you know, I'm in my comfortable space. I'm the professional, you know, I, I have all this power and yes, the client has the power, uh, um, you know to to say, no, they don't want it or anything like that. But I think I really try and be aware of, you know, the advantages of being in my own space and I'm really in my element, you know, often the client's quite nervous. Maybe it's that first tattoo, maybe they haven't had great experiences in the past. Maybe they've asked for changes in the past and been dismissed, or maybe they've asked for breaks in the past and been laughed at. You know, I just don't know what the history of the person who comes in is going to be. So I think that, um.

It's really important for me, the person who holds more power in the situation to make sure that, um, I'm creating a situation of, I guess, active consent. You know, I think that the tattooing process, it's really intense. It involves a lot of trust, physical intimacy, vulnerability and pain, and for a lot of people, all of those things are connected to trauma in one way or another. So I just try and be really aware of that and try and, um, create a space where people can consent. They can say yes or no, because if you can only say yes, then. You know, that's not really consent. So, um, I guess that's the way that I try and mitigate the potential for harm in tattooing because, you know, we've all heard stories, you know, not just tattooists, like anyone who knows a bunch of people who've been tattooed. So I've heard the stories about the tattoos that people have complex relationships with might be a beautiful piece of art, but the process wasn't comfortable. And, uh, it's really important to me. I think the process is just as important as the final work. Because it's going to shape that person's relationship to the tattoo and therefore, their own body and that's, that's really important to me in my work, is that my tattoos can improve somebody's relationship with their bloody, not undermine it.

Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. It's, um, it has the potential to be really, really empowering and completely reshape the way you view your own body. And, um, I know that you've mentioned like how you like to use it to reclaim your body and especially using it to deal with those traumas that are related to the body. Um, how tattooing getting, how's getting tattooed helped you with your own relationship with your body?

Brody: I think getting tattooed for me has. It's created a sense of agency autonomy over my body. You know, like having grown up in a society where for a variety of reasons, I didn't always have control over what happens to my body. Um, and I think that that's true of a lot of people. You know, whatever ways our bodies are marginalised, you know, those experiences are internalized. So for me to be able to make a permanent choice about my body, that's my choice and to adorn my body as well is really powerful. You know, to say that not only is this mine, but it is beautiful and therefore worth decorating and adorning, and then I have this collection of work that I've curated and chosen and collaborated on. Um, that, I guess. When people see me, I think you can see a lot about me by the works that I've chosen to collect. So I think it's both the process of enacting that power within our own bodies and also, uh, the, the intentionality of the choices that we make as well. Uh, but I think that a really cool thing for me has been just the, the, the transformative power of adornment. To say, this is a thing that is worth admiring, I think is really powerful for me

Eddy: It is it's, it's, so the more you think about how powerful it is, what we do, like, you know, we're aware that it's not essential that it is a luxury item, but at the same time, like I really think tattooing is an important part of the human experience. We've been doing it for thousands and thousands of years, and there's a reason for that. And like the power that you can get from claiming your body and being like, this is beautiful, this is how I want to be. It's like it's special.

Brody: Yeah. And that's something that I really, really try and emphasize and explore in the parts of my practice where I have a particular focus on working with people who have scars, usually self harm scars. Um, and I have those scars as well. So I think that, um, being on both sides of the experience, um. Yeah. It makes it an interesting experience for both, both of us, because my emphasis is really on transforming the relationship with those complex histories. You know, whenever people will come to me wanting to cover or hide first, I think it's important to manage expectations. You know, if you've got textured skin, it's always going to, it's always going to show you through, but I like to emphasize that that's not a problem because we're reframing and we're transforming and you know where it was once perhaps a self destructive act. We're now reframing that into, into a constructive and self-loving act.

And so I think that, yeah, that can be really powerful as well

Eddy: It's so amazing when you have the opportunity to do that for someone. The difference between them when they walk in the door and when they walk out, it's like. It's mind blowing, like just the way they walk, the look on their face, like how they hold themselves, how they look in the mirror even.

Brody: Yeah, gives me a little prickle.

Eddy: So beautiful. We're so lucky to get to do what we do.

Brody: Absolutely.

Eddy: And it's, um, it kind of really, really like brings to light how important it is to to make an effort to make your practice safe and welcoming, and so many tattooers had a lot to learn in, in that regard. Because yeah, we have the potential to compact trauma to make people like feel wrong in their bodies. There's a lot of, um, shaming of different body types. You know, you see people being told, I have a friend who was told that they couldn't get tattooed because of the color of their skin. Which is just horrifying. And the total lack of like skill too, because you can tattoo any skin.

Brody: It's just laziness ultimately. And yeah people projecting their own prejudices onto the kind of collaborations they want to do.

Eddy: Yeah.

Brody: Yeah. And I think even selfishly for me, you know, um, I would rather go to work and collaborate with equals then create this kind of hierarchy and antagonistic relationship where I'm, we're trying to extract value from each other. You know, it's so much more beautiful to go home at the end of the day and like, you know, want to cry with joy because of the relationships that I've formed in these, in these works. You know, it's just, I just can't imagine doing it any other way.

Eddy: Yeah, that's amazing. And I think by doing that, you get to like your clients walk away just with so much joy. I know that, um, I've spoken to some people after they've been tattooed by you and seeing their tattoos healed and you honestly even just like your name, they light up. Like you bring them so much joy because of that experience. It was so wonderful for them that it, yeah, it goes beyond even the tattoo.

Brody: Yeah. I think everyone deserves that. So.

Eddy: And, um

Brody: Yeah,

Eddy: I love how you kind of bring that into everything you do as well. Like, um, I've been seeing that recurring tagline and your art and merch and stuff. of Destroy Normal. Um, can you tell our listeners about that? Because I love it.

Brody: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I think the idea of destroy normal has been brewing in me for a very long time. Um. It originally emerged in that flash sheet that it first appears on, I think in 2018 and it was actually in response to, um, some transphobic straight harassment that I got. And I actually channeled that, that by on that and that rage and discomfort and pain into creating that sheet, which was a bit of a turning point in my practice, which I'm so joyful and grateful for, even though it was a really unpleasant experience. Um, and the idea of just destroying normal for me is, I guess, especially relevant as a non-binary person.

You know, I'm a non-binary trans person and I'm not, I'm not moving between two fixed points. I'm, I'm always influx and so, there are a lot of fixed categories that are not available to me, and I think the, yeah, the power of destroy normal to me is about to rejecting the idea that we can reform a system that restricts resources and safety to uh, people who fall into this inner circle of normal and that we can reform that by gradually expanding this cycle until eventually one day it includes everyone and this beautiful utopian future. But I, I reject that idea. I think that, um, it's we we've seen in history that as soon as a group is included in that, in that idea of normal, that they no longer really have any incentive to, to fight for the people on the outside and they suddenly have the power. So, um, and you know, I, I've seen a lot of, uh, of campaigns, you know, particularly in the gay marriage campaigns that happened in Australia, or this idea of, with, we're just like you, you know, we're all the same and I just. I just think that that seem, that's such a shame. It's such a waste. You know, we're not all the same.

We're all so different. And I would rather live in a world that celebrates innovation, uniqueness, and difference, um, and affords resources and safety to, to everyone. Um, rather than just the people who can assimilate, the people who can pretend to just be like you. I don't want to erase a huge part of who I am in order to fit into that, I don't think anyone else should have to either.

Eddy: And assimilation, it's such a colonizer's way of approaching society. It's, and it, you're right that it is, it's not enough to just like reform society because the problem is patriarchy and capitalism and all that. It's not, you can't reform it. You can't fix it. You just have to do away with it. It's the only way to move forward.

Brody: Absolutely. And those ideas of like, yeah, patriarchy and white supremacy and colonialism. We'll always have, um, members of the marginalized group who are, who are sort of held up as, as you know, the good ones, the ones who can fit into that idea of normal. And I think that that is harmful to every single group that it happens to. So yeah, that's why I Destroy Normal

Eddy: It's so limiting, and you know, like you pass as what we deemed to be okay. So, you know, we'll use you as a token to make everyone know that we're alright too. Yeah.

Brody: Yeah, absolutely.

Eddy: It kind of, um, I feel like it encourages our, um, ignorance, like, it took me a long time to even learn about the fact that there were different genders because I was so conditioned that in this binary and in all these like really rigid ideas about what people had to be in order to be successful and work in society. And you know, we just all go through life with our blinkers on and you know, it limits our potential for what we can create and how we can contribute to the world.

Brody: It's so true. You know, I have this really distinct memory of myself. Um, somewhere between the ages of seven and nine. Of, I'd encountered this idea of trans as somebody who's born in one body and belongs in another, and the very, very binary idea. I remember asking, asking myself, in my primary school playground? Am I that and just not being able to imagine myself as a boy. You know, I, I in my child brain, and I had thought I would miss being a girl too much. Uh, and so I was like, okay, well, I guess that's not me. And then, you know, nearly 20 years later, finally realizing that there were other options to that and other ways to be, uh, and, you know, I've never been more comfortable and more powerful. So I think, yeah, I think eroding those ideas of normalcy and the right way to do things, it's, yeah. It's only going to empower people.

Eddy: Yeah. Do you think that, um, you know, kind of just, you're by your nature and wanting to destroy normal, that that's part of why you become a creative because you know, you do printmaking, you do painting, you do tattooing, you know, you just seem to be like completely creative in every cell of your body, you play banjo. Like, do you think that that's, that's all a part of just like who you are and that's why you've ended up in tattooing?

Brody: I honestly don't know. I can't really remember a time when I wasn't creating. Um. It's just all I've really done since a very young age. And you know, I've had other passions and stuff, but it's just kind of being the continuing thread. But it's, it's even funny that you mentioned banjo because until less than a year ago, I had this notion in my head that I couldn't be a musician because that's a different kind of creativity and, you know, I couldn't do that. Um, so I think, yeah, it's, it's really, it's really funny that you ask in that way, but I think that I've I've always had an agenda and drive to innovate and to imagine. And I think that that really is the common thread through everything I produce.

Eddy: Yeah. And cause you like, you know, you don't seem to ever just do something for the sake of itself. Like there's always a message embedded in everything you do, which is why I love you, obviously.

Brody: Well yeah. I think that's really important because, um, and you know, this was a big question that I was asking myself, especially when, uh, I was at art school, when I was asking what kind of art do I want to create, because I kind of had these two parts of myself, I had the part of myself that was the activist. And then the part of myself that was the artist. And it just seemed, you know, why, why, why are these two separate things? What if I could make them the same thing? And so I guess over the last, you know, seven or eight years of my, I guess, like political awakening, um. I've been asking myself; how can I use this thing that is core to who I am and that I'm really good at that’s creating and use it to make the world a better place? Um, and so I'm always asking, how can I do that? And you know, the answer looks very different each day, which is really exciting.

Eddy: That's awesome. Well, um, you have been working on some, a really, really cool project, which I, I love the idea of, and you know it's so inclusive and it's just, it's so perfect. Um, did you want to tell the listeners about your jockstraps?

Brody: Yes. It's funny. This is actually a project that I initiated, and it must have been nearly three years ago, I think. Um, I, I found myself, you know uh, my, my, my fashion style changes a lot as my gender shifts. And so I find myself, um, you know, in a lot of different kinds of clothes and I wanted to wear jockstraps cause they're fucking hot, you know, who doesn't want that. And I just couldn't find any that fit me. You know, like these, these garments are designed for cis men and you know, usually a particular size and shape as well. Um, and I thought, you know, there's gotta be someone that's, that's made these to fit other kinds of bodies, and there may be, but I just really couldn't find it and started kind of, I guess as a last resort, I took out my sewing machine and, you know, I've got some scraps of fabric and then made something, to be honest, it was kind of simpler than making a pouch to just make a flat panel, like, like a pair of briefs. But in that, in that shape. So I had this prototype and, um, I just never got around to making it for anyone else cause I was too busy tattooing. So here is the, the hidden blessing of all this time where I can't tattoo and I've decided to expand that project, um, and offer people uh, I guess, yeah, their own, their own jock straps that that will fit a variety of bodies. So I'm hoping to do them to order so that they can be custom sized so that, you know, anyone can pick what colors make them feel cutest, as well as having it like fit perfectly. Because I think that's so important. I think so often we forget that clothes are made for bodies and we say, my body is wrong for this.

Eddy: Yeah

Brody: You know. Instead of saying these pants had two types. You'll say, my body is too big. And I think that, um, that going back to more of that slow and personalized production of clothing is like a way of undermining that. Because. You know, how could the body ever be wrong for a thing that's made for the body? So I, yeah, I wanted to make something that, that fits, that feels good. Uh, you know, uh, I'm making it in my home. My dog is really stoked working from home, and I also thought it would be really cool to, uh, uh, incorporate some screen printing into it as well. So, um incorporating some popular flash designs that I've done so that people can still be wearing my art, but in this sort of interchangeable way, you know, you can wear a different thing there each day, a different design. So that's, that's the project that I'm really excited about. I think it would probably be, uh, at least another few weeks before I can, before I can launch it. But I'm sort of getting it all ready behind the scenes.

Eddy: That's so amazing. And it's, it's funny how you say that about how can our bodies be wrong? Because I know that I've spent my entire life getting really stressed out. Cause I love fashion, but fashion doesn't always fit my body. Like, um, you know, I, I've had like surgeries which make my body hurt in places and clothes make it really uncomfortable. And I'm always like, why? What's wrong with me? Why can't I have a normal body that fits clothes? And like. Clothes aren't made for everyone they made for this like ideal. That's this like white you know, binary, perfect little person that doesn't even exist.

Brody: And how interesting that you ask, why can't I have a normal body? What is a normal body? It's certainly not the body represented. If you look at averages that's not reflected in the idea of normal. So it's not even, it's not even accurate. It doesn't even hold water.

Eddy: And it's so crazy how much we conditioned to hate ourselves. And I feel like that's where like those with power do get control. Because if we spend our whole lives hating ourselves then we're so much easier to manipulate, and you know, even in this lockdown situation, I had a moment the other day where I was like, Oh I've gained weight and now I'm not going to be able to wear my clothes. And you know, I'm so upset. And then it was like, wait, that's that is so fucking fat phobic of me to say, because I would never look at another person's body and say that and like, no, fuck that. All bodies are beautiful and they do a damn good job of putting up with us. I know that, you know, you and I always talk about, you know, having both, having like various chronic conditions like. Yeah. Our bodies

Brody: And yet here we surviving and thriving and being able to do the things that we do. You know, it's so easy to forget to be grateful for that, I think. Um, and especially that, that the frustration there is that the clothes won't work. You know? Make the clothes work. So yeah, I think that that's like, that's an angle that I want to explore for a little bit while I'm not tattooing so much,

Eddy: That's awesome. Please tell me that you have a burning cop car screen printed on one of your jock, jock straps.

Brody: There will be, yes, this is the. This is the other exciting thing is that, you know, I've, I've gotten some really interesting and excited responses from some of these more incendiary designs that I've done, you know, some literal, some not, you know, that's the burning cop cars there's the, the knives and stillettos with queers smash back and stuff like that. Um. And a lot of people are really excited to see these designs because they speak to them and their experiences and their frustrations. Um, but a lot of people don't feel safe to get them for really obvious reasons. You know, like you don't know what situations you're going to end up in, so having those designs on garments that you can take off, I just think it opens up a lot of scope for people to feel safe to engage with those, you know, um, releases of frustration that that can, that can be felt in playing with those designs I think.

Eddy: Yeah, it's, it's really interesting how people do get really scared to wear their activism. I remember last time you guested and you had some stickers with some of your, like more like political designs on them and people and nervous to even take the stickers.

Brody: Yeah. Which is so funny because in a specific way, because, uh, you know, those were a series of four, and then two of them were botanical designs, and two of them were queer designs, and one of them was a, uh, as a burning cop car. Um, and those, those are the ones I always run out of first. So it's interesting because they're the most popular, but people are still often nervous. So it's this really interesting tension where people are like afraid to engage with it for really obvious reasons. You know, it represents a lot of danger. And so to resist such a strong and violent status quo, but people can't help but be drawn to it as well. That's really interesting.

Eddy: Yeah, I love, I thought it was so fascinating and you know, I love how, um, you made a comment to me about how you like you know, you promote aggressive queerness and I love, I love that in your, in your work so much and how, how that's a part of your practice and your like encouraging people to wherever they're comfortable to, to, to not be scared and to just be like, fuck it, this is me.

Brody: Yeah. I think that, I think that, um, yeah, there are certain. Scenarios that a lot of people are in where it's not safe to explore those, those things. And that's really heartbreaking and devastating when that happens. Um, I think for a lot of us, a lot of that fear is in anticipation though. It's in anticipation of, of this sort of looming threat of, you know, of, of losing love, not being worthy of desire, all these things. And I think that sometimes we can call that bluff when it's safe to do so. And the more we call that bluff, the more we're empowering and permitting other people to do the same. So, but I would never, I would never judge somebody for not feeling safe to do that, or, you know, I don't think that you need to be out and visible to be queer, or to be powerful. But you know, the more of us who are, the better, the better it is for all of us, I think.

Eddy: Yeah. And that's what's really exciting about the tattoo community now that there are more groups of, um, dif, like different marginalized groups who are starting to like realize the power of community that they have and hold each other up and their voice is getting louder and louder and they finding more platforms and they're making more space and taking up more space like in the tattoo community. And then I think that sets a really good example for their clients to then go and do the same out in the world.

Brody: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like there's big change that's happened in the last wee while in the tattoo world. You know, like it's changing so much technologically all the time. Like I can, you know, I, I've heard stories that they've been, how it was, you know, five, 10 years ago before the internet was such a big part and platform of how it works. And yeah, I'm really excited to see how that plays out for voices that haven't traditionally been a part of that conversation.

Eddy: Yeah. It'll be really interesting as well, like in this post COVID world, how, how we adjust and and use that like I think there are some potential benefits that we can do, like little things. Like I, I saw some family the other day cause we were allowed to visit like two people at a time and they asked for hugs. People don't normally stop and ask for hugs. And so that like opens up the world for people who aren't comfortable with that, to either say yes or no and to give permission. And like, I think that yeah, we could potentially, if we, if we take hold of this properly and if we fight for our rights, we could really shape the world. You know obviously that's very, very overly positive properly, probably because you know, there's a lot of bad things as well to fight, but you know, we do have the potential to change things to our benefit.

Brody: I think it is optimistic, but I think that's necessary. You know, there's always, there's always going to be challenges in life and that that is an opportunity for change as well, which we've already seen in so many ways. I think that, um, a lot of the time people are quick to criticize for idealism or optimism. But for me that that is power and direction. You know, there's this really, really beautiful poem, um, that, uh, I can't remember the name of right now, but I'll write it to you after, after we finished talking, um, that it talks about utopia and, uh, it compares it to the horizon and it says, uh, in a terrible English translation of the poem, every two steps I take towards it, it recedes two steps like the horizon. What then is the use of utopia and the use is that it's good for walking. It's good to advance. It's good to walk towards this, you know, perpetually receding distance. You know, I don't think it's about, uh, achieving the full breadth of our own personal utopias because that's somebody else's hell. But I think that optimism and idealism is critical for keeping us moving towards the things that we can dream off.

So I think that's really important. And I think that, um, you know, you know, talking about how it's changed the way that we interacted with each other spaces and stuff like that. You know, more conscientious about asking for consent and things like that. Something that I'm personally really, uh, cautiously optimistic and excited about as a, as a chronically ill person is that we might take illness more seriously. You know, so often over the last half, a decade of my compromised immune system, I have been at work with people who have come to work sick or clients who have come to work sick or you know, whatever customers of any of the businesses I've worked in. And then I've been floored for two weeks while they recover in like two or three days. And, uh, you know, I think that that comes from the pressures of capitalism. You know, it's not, you know, it's not about personal defect or anything. It's, you know, we have this pressure to push through that that's always impacted, I think, vulnerable bodies disproportionately. Uh, and so I'm really excited to see how this might shift to taking illness and health more seriously now. Now that we have experienced I guess yeah how critical that can be.

Eddy: Absolutely. It's also highlighted just how important having a really strong medical system in place is, and also I think seeing the consequences of isolation, how important mental health awareness and help is as well. Like I think, yeah, that's another thing that we can hopefully be optimistic about that, that there's changes made in that respect.

Brody: I'd like to see that, it would be nice

Eddy: And I think. I think that's where like we have a really important role in this potentially new world because you know, people have been in isolation and they, they've been like, they haven't been touched for a long time. And for some people having a platonic interaction with no expectations of pressure. It's just like really, really important for their wellbeing. So when people come and finally come back and get tattooed by us and they can be held and it's warm and it's inviting and it's safe, and they're also like changing their body in a way that makes them feel good, it's going to like, I think we can really help people deal with a lot of like their trauma moving forward from here as well.

Brody: Yeah, I think so too. It's been funny and you're talking about how isolation might've changed our relationship, shifted our relationship to intimacy and things like that. You know, something that I've already noticed is like, you know, like a good friend of mine has told me that in the past, she's never, you know, she's never felt comfortable like taking and sending nudes before, but you know, now that she didn't really have any alternative she's found the experience really empowering. And similarly for me, you know, I've been sharing more of those images with my good friends, you know, rather than the people I might've been in the past, which has also been really gorgeous and healing. So, yeah, there's some really exciting changes afoot, you know, as well.

Eddy: It's so nice to celebrate the human body. Like, and if you can send nudes, even if they are like for sexual purposes, or even just sending them just to your friends is actually really, really lovely. I had a friend send me one the other day and I was like, this just made my day like this stuff made me feel really good seeing you so comfortable in your body. That's so beautiful.

Brody: It's gorgeous isn't it

Eddy: Um, one thing I would love to ask. Is how, like, you know, cause I know you have a lot of really amazing ideas about how to go about tattooing and how to treat clients. How do you think like other artists or myself can kind of come back to tattooing and offer like a safer experience for clients?

Brody: It's a really a difficult question for me to consider answering because I think everyone is as different in approaches as our art is, and going back to this idea of of diversity, I think that that's really important. You know. Uh, I don't, my style doesn't work for everyone. You know, I can be very blunt and direct and outspoken. And for some people that can be too much. It can be a strong flavor, you know? Whereas for other people that like that, you know, um, softer, gentler, maybe more polite way of communicating is more comfortable. So I would be reluctant to offer advice to anyone in that sense because it's not a one size fits all thing. And I never was, you know, I think the more different different we all are the more resilient we are, the community, the more we can offer really different clients. Um, but I think if there's like one thing that, that is really important for me to focus on, it's to make sure that people have space to express themselves, even if that means no, or even if that means, you know, we don't get to see the work that we want to see.

Eddy: Yeah

Brody: You know, I think paper's is great for that, you know? And so, yeah, I think that that's, that's the big thing for me is to meet everyone as an equal and know that they're the one who's going to have to wear it. So at the end of the day, that's, that's the important thing for me.

Eddy: Just like putting egos aside, but still celebrating all of our differences.

Brody: Yeah. And still being honest when there is an approach that could work better, because I think we all serve our clients, you know?

Eddy: Yeah. Yeah, that's, um, I kind of like struggle with, you know, sometimes, you know, a client will ask for a change or whatever and I'll just be like, no. And then I've kind of, it's very abrupt and very like in your face, and then I'm like, no, no, no, like, kind of pull myself back. Okay. This is why I don't think that would work from a technical point of view. I really want to do a good tattoo for you. Can we like talk about maybe these other options instead? And kind of trying to learn to adjust to like, like I saw you doing like asking for more permission from your clients and and stuff and rather than just going straight to the no and cutting it off, they're like, I, I used to when I was younger, like in my early years of tattooing and now trying to actually have a conversation with the customer.

Brody: And that is another reason and I keep all discussions of the design to the day cause then it's a face to face collaboration. It's just us talking and you know, I can, I can answer those potential changes with this is up to you and at the end of the day we'll do it however you think these are the reasons that I've made these choices and these are why it might last better. It might be more readable from a distance, you know, there might be higher contrast on your skin, like whatever reason it is, and the vast majority of the time, people are really appreciative for that and they're like, I see why you've made that choice now. Now I'm happy with it. And people will say, look, I hear what you're saying. I just really want it this way. And then I'm like, okay. Okay. We've had this conversation, we've managed your expectations. You're not going to come back to me in 10 years time and be like, why didn't it last? You know, we've actually negotiated as equals.

Eddy: Yeah.

Brody: And respected each other in that. So I think that's for most people, that's all it takes.

Eddy: Yeah. And some people are never explained to like I've had people write me emails like, cause I, I do all my consultations via email generally, and I'll explain something to them. They'll write back and they'll be like, I have been told no by 10 other tattooers. I have never had one person take the time to explain that to me, and that changes everything and I'm really, really grateful. And it's just like, it took five minutes of my time.

Brody: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that we shouldn't underestimate the potential that is fast to learn something from it as well, because maybe we've always been told that it won't work. You know, like, you know, I've always learned that, you know, outlines should be in black or gray and like that's the way it lasts the best and you're not, this is the way we've always done it. And you know, sometimes I've had this conversation with clients that they've be like, look I just really want it to be lined in color, you know? And then the first time that happened, I made a compromise with them and I'm like, okay, can we mix the color with black? So we have elements of both of our desires in this? And he said yes. And it was really challenging. And it's one of the best tattoos I've ever done, and it actually ... the direction of my work that I never would have taken that risk on my own. And so he's really happy. I'm happy, I've done really interesting and work for other people as a result, you know, actually coming together, collaborating as equals, rather than me being like, no, this is how it's done. So I think we can learn from the creativity of our clients as well.

Eddy: I agree, a hundred percent because while I think it's really important to respect the traditions of tattooing, it's also important to disrupt them every now and then and challenge them. Because you know things change and like technology changes and our inks change and stuff. And sometimes if you don't at least try, you just don't know like, you know, I've over the course of the years that, uh, I've been tattooing for 10 years and I've tried all different line weights, all different kinds of colors and approaches and, and you know, I've found what works for me, for the kind of people that I generally tattoo. And like you know now I'm at a point where I can be like, you know, hey, like this is what works for me. And even with my apprentice, like I'll say to her like, so this is what I do, this is what works for me. That's probably not going to work for you. Try it. Go and talk to Sophie, try what she says too, and then go and talk to Jade and like, it's the only way to learn.

Brody: Yeah, that's the best way.

Eddy: Yeah.

Brody: Yeah. I love that.

Eddy: One thing. Um, I did actually want to ask you as well, um, you know, I, you know, with my studio, you know, I opened it with the intention of creating and offering, a safe space for clients. And I think, you know, as, as a cis het person, like, you know, I think I do have a lot of, like I've got my blinkers on for a lot of understanding of what other people experience. So, you know, I wanted to create a safe space, but I don't always have those experiences myself to know where to draw the boundaries. And you made a really interesting point about how sometimes using the safe space label can be dangerous and how, you know, there's other ways to aspire for safety for clients. Like what? Like what are your thoughts on that?

Brody: Yeah. Well, absolutely. It is something that we've talked about, you know, I think that. Um, over the last five years or so, there's been this real push and desire, uh, for safe spaces. And so, um, people have responded to that by creating spaces that they want to be safe, which is great. Like we need to experiment and learn and, and, and try. Um, but I think that they can be a real danger to, uh, to ascribing safety to our own practices and our own spaces. You know, I think the edges of that experience is about privilege, always going to be invisible to oursleves.

Eddy: Yeah.

Brody: Because it's the ... experienced, you know, I can only speak to the ways that I'm marginalized. Then I'm, you know, despite my curiosity and research and drive to learn about other people's experiences, I'm, I'm constantly like shocked and appalled by the things that other people do experience. So I think, um, in, in, in ascribing safety to our own projects, we can run the risk of patting ourselves on the back and saying, okay, I've done it. I've created a space when it's never going to be safe for everyone, you know, we're all human who have grown up in this world, and we're always going to be bringing power structures, ideas, and cultural values from the outside world. And that outside world is, is where all this shit's going down. So I think it's an unrealistic expectation to have on, on any individual or project to actually achieve safety.

It's unrealistic to offer to the people who come into the space, and it's also unrealistic to expect of ourselves as well. You know, like I make mistakes. We all make mistakes. I think it's more about how we address them when we do and how we take responsibility for them and how we learn and how we, you know, uh, uh, you know, assisting in healing where appropriate and things like that. But I think that it goes back to what I was saying about utopia and, and, um, idealism. I think it's more something to walk towards. And it's a process that will never be finished. And I think if we think about it more that way as a process, as a journey, then I think we'll do a better job of it and not make promises that we can't keep as well.

Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And then, you not, yeah you're not ... boxing yourself into one, one set of rules you're constantly striving to improve and to learn and to grow.

Brody: Yeah. And I think it's a lot healthier for ourselves as well. Like, um, I think you and I have this in common and a lot of other people do. I see a lot in tattooists in particular but maybe that's cause I know a lot of tattooers, I dunno. Um, but this, this, uh, this sort of perfectionism or this, uh. Really high expectations that we can have on ourselves can actually be really disenabling. You know? I think that even for our own health and wellbeing, it can be, it can be better to say, hey, I'm trying, I'm learning. I want to learn. And sometimes you got to make mistakes to do that, and that's really uncomfortable. But I think it's being, being humbled is important as well.

Eddy: Definitely. And just like accepting that you have privilege and that you make mistakes. But asking the people like, who are, you know, marginalized? How, how can I be better? And not expecting them to do that emotional labor for you at the same time though.

Brody: Yeah. But just trying to be curious and notice and anticipate, you know, within, within that kind of acknowledgement of limited experience.

Eddy: Yeah. It's really exciting to me that there's people like you in tattooing who are able to share those ideas and help, hopefully make the future of tattooing a much more like positive place and like our community a lot healthier.

Brody: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a pretty bright future to look towards. Yeah.

Eddy: So yeah. Before we, before we wrap it up today, is there anything that you wanted to add or talk about or share with our listeners?

Brody: I, I feel like I've, I've spoken a lot. Yeah. I feel I've said a lot. I'm pretty happy, yeah.

Eddy: Well, for anyone who wants to watch the interview with Brody today um, I'll be putting it up on YouTube. Um, and if you follow us on Instagram at not just a girl underscore tattoo, you can see regular updates and links for where to find everything. I'll also link, um, all of Brody's details and the YouTube details and everything you need to know in the, um, show notes. So please subscribe, follow and share. Please follow Brody and share their work. Um. And help spread the love of tattooing. Um, thank you so much. Brody for talking to me today. It's been such a joy. Um, and I really hope our listeners enjoyed it too. Um, everyone has a wonderful day and like, get out there and destroy normal.

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notjustagirltattoopodcast · 4 years

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Not Just A Girl: Introduction

You can listen to the introduction episode here and on Spotify. Or you can listen to it on YouTube with subtitles/closed captions here (I don't have any footage to go with the intro but have shared some photos from previous NJAG events).

NOT JUST A GIRL: Tattoo Podcast EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Season 1, Episode 0: Introduction

Hello everyone and welcome to Not Just A Girl where every week I give you a glimpse into the lives and art practice of tattooers I admire through an intersectional feminist lens. We will discuss how they came to tattooing, their passions and experiences what informs their practice and how they enact resistance against the patriarchy with their art and just by being themselves.

Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are the traditional custodians of this land that was stolen and never ceded. I am honoured to be on the ancestral land of the Awabakal people where this podcast is recorded and produced. I pay my respects to the Elders, past and present and extend my recognition to their descendants.

My name is Eddy, I’m an artist, tattooer, angry feminist and the owner of FLT Tattoo Studio in Newcastle NSW. I’ve been tattooing for just over ten years now and it’s through my experiences as a tattooer that I found my voice as a feminist as well as a platform to contribute to my community by supporting other artists and doing what I love.

On Not Just A Girl you will hear from people who are passionate about tattooing and want to influence the community to create a safer and more inclusive space for artists and clients alike. My intention is to highlight the experience of women, trans, non-binary and queer folx in the tattoo community and to give them a platform to share their ideas and feelings about topics that have informed their practice.

Not Just A Girl actually had its beginnings as a tattoo flash day in 2017. It was after an incredibly disappointing tattoo show in Sydney that was little more than a display of white male privilege and misogyny where women were reduced to sexual objects, that I started a group chat with a bunch of women who I knew were just as disillusioned as I was. We discussed how we could resist the status quo and make space for ourselves, we came up with the idea of a flash day for female identifying artists to come together, make amazing tattoos and raise money for women in need.

Melanie Milne, Sasha Mezoghlian and I, with help from some of the most amazing tattooers in Australia came up with Not Just A Girl. In our first year we managed to raise $45k and in our second, almost 95k for charities addressing gendered violence.

But beyond the money we raised and how good it felt to give back, we had found something really special. We had built a community of likeminded people who were there because they were passionate about tattooing and passionate about enacting change in society to bring about equality. We learnt that as a community we had power, and that we could do amazing things when we worked together for a greater cause.

The flash day has since been on hold as we’ve all focused on our busy careers, but everyone involved has continued to work towards building a better future for tattooing.

Right now, the world is in chaos in the midst of a global pandemic and many tattooers have made the choice to stop working or have had restrictions imposed on them to help curb the spread of the coronavirus. This is unprecedented in our time and for many of us, our identity and even self-worth is deeply invested in tattooing, so it’s difficult.

Tattoos play an important role in helping people express their identity, it’s one of the oldest professions and I believe it’s an important part of our human experience. For women and other marginalised groups in particular, when we mark our body we rebel against the patriarchy and reclaim our autonomy.

I have felt a huge loss these past few weeks being disconnected from the practice I love so much. As I’ve tried to navigate through my grief and establish a plan for how I might proceed I keep coming back to the importance of community. To those with privilege, like myself, we have the opportunity here to take a step back and imagine a life outside of ridiculous capitalist pressures of productivity and we can refocus our energies to contributing to a happier, kinder and more inclusive world.

While I am unable to tattoo right now, I can still talk about tattooing and while I can’t proceed with any Not Just A Girl events, we can still rely on the strength of that community to bring a little joy to others. Over the coming weeks and months, I will be chatting to some people I admire in tattooing via Zoom to share their stories and experiences with you. I am really excited to see how this podcast develops, making new friends and learning new skills in the process.

Along with this podcast I will be sharing the footage of some of the interviews on YouTube and you can stay up to date by following our Instagram @notjustagirl_tattoo. I will link all the information for this podcast and my guests in the show notes. Please take a moment to subscribe, follow and share Not Just A Girl and all the artists involved to help spread the love of tattooing.

Thank you so much for taking the time to listen today, I really hope you enjoyed it and continue to follow along as I speak to a new artist each week. I hope you all have a wonderful day if you can.

And remember to be kind to others

And fuck the patriarchy!

#notjustagirl #notjustagirlpodcast #feministpodcast #feminist #intersectionalfeminist #community #podcast #tattoopodcast #tattooartist #eddyloutattoo #flttattoostudio #tattoo

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notjustagirltattoopodcast · 4 years

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Not Just A Girl: Down to Clown

You can listen to the eleventh episode with Courtney here. Or you can find this interview on YouTube with English subtitles/closed captions here.

NOT JUST A GIRL: Tattoo Podcast

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Season 1, Episode 11: Down to Clown

Eddy: Hello, friends and welcome to Not Just A Girl, the feminist tattoo podcast, where I get to talk to some of my favorite tattooers about their lives and art practice. I'm Eddy and thank you for joining me for episode 11. Today, we'll be chatting about friendly tattoo studios, the tattoo community, and self-expression and drag.Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are the traditional custodians of this land that was stolen and never ceded. I am honored and grateful to be on the ancestral land of the Awabakal people. And I pay my respects to their Elders past and present and extend my recognition to their descendants.I'm very excited today to chat to the stunning and talented Courtney. She's also known as Miss Quartz and works at The Grand Illusion in Melbourne. Courtney is known for her vibrant, fun, and beautifully executed traditional tattoos. She's also one half of the Down To Clown podcast, celebrating drag. Thank you so much for being a part of my little podcast. It's so good to chat to you today. Courtney: My pleasure. Thanks for asking me. Eddy: So, how's your year been so far? Courtney: Well, I think, uh, as I can, as I think many people will say it's been ups and downs, the year started off extremely busy. And then, um, two months of ah being dormant, I guess. Someone asked me the other day they're like, are you still going to count this into your like tattoo career time? I was like, yes, I'm 10 years in October. I'm not like, sacrificing that landmark for myself. Eddy: That's so exciting. It's my 10 year this year too. But I don't remember exactly when I started. I just know it was some time I'm at the start of the year. So I go off, I just be like, okay, January. Courtney: Yeah. I'm exactly the same. I remember it being like around October ish and Tim Regard who I work with he, he, his date is in October, so I've just taken his, I'm like, okay, I'm jumping on that, you always remember when it is so. Eddy: Little anniversary twinsies. Courtney: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've just adopted his day. Uh, I think he's okay with that. Eddy: That's so exciting that you're coming up to 10 years. Congratulations. Courtney: I know, thank you and you too. It doesn't, it doesn't feel like that long at all. I don't know how you feel about it, but I feel like it's like been a second. Eddy: Yeah. Courtney: In my life Eddy: I still feel like tattoo baby, sometimes. Courtney: Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. The older I get and the longer I do this, the more I realize I know absolutely nothing. Eddy: Yep. Yeah. I was definitely much more confident in my first year or two, then I am now. Courtney: Oh, yeah. I think it just comes down to age as well. Like, I'm not sure how old you were when you started, but just in that like late teens, early twenties stage, you just think you're the shit, especially when you're in your tattoo apprenticeship, you're like, yeah, I'm a tattooer, I'm so cool, I know everything, I've been doing this for six months.Eddy: I was in my mid twenties so I have absolutely no excuse for being that way. Other than ego. Courtney: I think, I think it's, um, it's something that comes naturally, uh, when you start succeeding in a creative field, I think it comes, you know, a lot of it does come from you. So you're like, Oh my God, I am actually so, so good. And then a few years go pass and you're like, I dunno what I was thinking.Eddy: It's so frustrating. Just kinda, just feel as good as I did in that first six months. Courtney: I know, but I think it's a good way to be. That's how you keep pushing and that's how you keep developing as an artist. And, um, I think the best way to improve is to run that race with yourself. Eddy: Absolutely. Absolutely. What, what was your first tattoo?Courtney: Um, my very first tattoo I ever did. I got to work and my boss was like okay you're tattooing today. Up until this point I'd just been like sitting in the studio cleaning, sketching, like um fucking around and like, you know, I don't know if you had them, but, um, this was before a pound of flesh happened and, uh, you could get actual body parts to tattoo, um, I was tattooing on these like weird, like Silicon rubber mats that were nothing like skin at all. Anyway.I got, I got into the studio and my boss was like yep you're tattin today. I was like, Oh my God, what am I tattooing myself? And he's like, no, you're tattooing me. He had these old, um, stars on his leg and he's like, okay, you're going to redo these. And I want another second star on the inside. So it was ah extremely stressful. I think there was three, the whole thing was probably like about that big. And I feel like it probably took me about two hours. Eddy: Oh my god. And like stars with like crisp points. That's, that's hard. Courtney: Yeah. Five point stars, crisp points and had to freehand the second smallest star inside the like, You know, existing one, it was a lot.Eddy: Oh my God, I can't remember exactly what my first one is, but it was either a rat and a skull, on my husband's foot or a penguin or my sister's ankle, but either way for both of them, I remember crying while I was doing it.Courtney: It's so high pressure. It's so so high pressure. I still have flashbacks now to when I first started and I don't know, just. That there was always like a few tattoos that would just let be kind of getting away from you. And I just remember moving halfway through tattoos and being like, I just want this to be over, I don't know how long I can keep doing this for. I don't know how long I can keep um, supporting my client emotionally through this, because I'm done with it. Uh, we always got there at the end but. Yeah. I always have those moments now where I'm like starting something big and I'm like, Oh, wow, like, you know, I'm feeling like really confident and I remember the days where I did not have that at all. Eddy: And you start to feel the sweat dripping down, like your stomach and your upper lip.Courtney: Oh yeah. Yeah. I need just like, I can't, I can't talk or do anything, but like I need a laser focus and this is all I can do right now. Eddy: Still have those moments. Courtney: I'm a lot like that now. Yeah. Eddy: Yeah. Well, I mean, it's funny cause like your work it's so powerful and vibrant and it exudes confidence and fun. So you kind of like when I look at your work, I can't imagine you even having a moment of stress, like just with the way your work appears.Courtney: Oh, thank you. That's so nice. Um, I'd say all the stress happens now beforehand. I think, uh, at the stage I'm at now, well, hopefully after these two months this still rings true, but at the stage I'm at now, It's almost like muscle memory. Like I know, I know exactly how all of my machines run. I know my set up, my environments super comfortable and I'm confident in my own skills. Now it's more like is the design a hundred percent exactly what I want it to be, what my client wants it to be. Am I bringing something fresh to the table? Um, while still upholding, you know, the traditional values that I value. So yeah, I'd say all the stress happens before now. Rather than during the actual process.Eddy: Yeah. That makes sense.Courtney: For me anyway.Eddy: I mean, that's probably the most important time to be stressing about it because it's like, if the design's not right, where do you go from there? Courtney: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. If the designs not right from the very beginning. The tattoos not going to be right at the end. Eddy: Yep. Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. Eddy: Have you always been interested in traditional tattoos? Is that, has that always been like your, I don't know, main inspiration in tattooing? Courtney: Not always. I started tattooing in ah street shops on the gold coast. So it was very much, um, the focus was very much on being an allrounder. You know, you should be able to be doing almost any style that walks through the door, which is a great base to start with. But, um, it led to a lot of years of, uh, Self-reflection and exploration and really trying to find like what I like to see in my own work and what feels good for me and what I'm naturally drawn to. So, um, I'd say it's probably, it's probably in the last, maybe five years that I've been really, really, um, attracted and dedicated to traditional tattooing.Eddy: Oh, that's awesome. Um. Courtney: Yeah. Eddy: Did, did you find that in your self reflection, it was about just looking at tattoos or was it just this whole thing of like pop culture and music and stuff as well? Because I know you're really into drag culture and all that kind of thing. Did that play a part in discovering your style?Courtney: Definitely I think, um, anyone who consider themselves an artist can recognize that they take inspiration from every aspect of their likes and, um, their lives and personality. Um, I think a big turning point for my work was recognizing what I liked and what my inspirations were, but also recognizing that it's just elements that I like rather than a like straight replication.Eddy: Yeah. Courtney: Yeah. And I definitely think um not completely stopping looking at other tattooers, but not putting so much gravity in what everyone else is doing around me has really helped me like push my own style and, um, just know who I am as an artist, I guess. Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. I, I find the same thing. Like I used to spend a lot of time looking at other artists and getting stressed out because I couldn't do what they were doing. And then instead I changed my attitude and approach and was just looking at the little tricks they were doing that was, that was attracting me to that work. And then just putting that aside, still keeping like little tricks and details in mind, and then kind of not even referencing another tattoo at all when I'm drawing or tattooing, it's just much more authentic as well.Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And I feel like definitely with traditional tattooing, the references are important and the history is extremely important, but that for me, anyway, it was an extremely pivotal step where I could take those things. Um, but not be replicating it and being like, okay, these are all the things that I like from this style of tattooing, but I want to draw inspiration from all this other stuff in my life that I really, really love and that I'm drawn to. Um, and now, yeah, now I'm just like, okay, well, you know, that's the idea. So here we go, kind of seeing, yeah, just see what happens. See what comes out. Eddy: That's awesome. And it must be difficult I think in traditional tattooing specifically, to be able to find that happy medium between, you know, respecting traditions and following those like patterns, but then bringing something fresh to it because you know, you do, you do see a lot of replication and not that there's anything wrong with that for those artists, but it would be hard to find your own voice and stand out in that crowd when there's so many people doing it.Courtney: Yeah. And so many people doing it so extremely well as well. I think, especially, especially within Australia, the tattoo community here is so talented and vibrant and creative. And I really feel like there's a lot of people here pushing the envelope and like doing new, cool things. It's so hard not to be inspired and motivated by that. Um, but you know, on those down days, it is easy to look at all that and be like, I'm never going to get to that level. Like what do they have that I don't have? Um, so I think as my journey has progressed it's a lot of putting that aside and being like, well, you know, they're just doing what they're doing, doing what I'm doing. And you know, that's why people come to you. Not because you're doing something like, like somebody else, because you're doing your own thing. Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And I think people come to you as well for the experience. I've, I've tattooed a few of your clients and they only had to say amazing things about you and how lovely were and how funny you were and how comfortable you made them feel and how much they enjoyed the experience of being tattooed by you.Courtney: Yeah. I, I think the experience is so important. I think you're probably the same as well. Like I get that vibe off you and, um, yeah, we've got a lot of crossover clients and I only ever hear good things about FLT, um, and the experiences that they have with you and your crew. Um, but yeah, I would say like, I have always felt that the experience is super important. Um, but it's also something that's come very naturally to me as well. As soon as I started tattooing it's like, I want to give my all and everything I have to tattooing and the people who are coming to me to get tattooed, um, because I feel like I get it so much from tattooing back. So yeah, I just want to like have fun. I want to like chat with people. Um, You know, have a good experience. Sometimes I'm even lucky enough to walk away from the experience with like a new friend in my life, which is so cool.Eddy: I love when that happens.Courtney: Especially when so many people yeah. And so many people struggle, you know, making friends and forming those connections as adults. And we're so lucky that it just happens for us kind of thing. Um, and yeah. I'm lucky enough to work at The Grand Illusion where everyone else holds those values as closely and as sacredly as I do. So it's um, yeah, the environment's super important. Eddy: Yeah. It's a beautiful studio and you definitely get that really fun, welcoming energy when you're there.Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. We we all work really hard on it. It's um, yeah, it just makes going to work, well, not even work, it's just, you know, I'm just going to go do what I love in a room with people that I love and yeah. Have fun, which is what's made isolation so hard.Eddy: Yeah.Courtney: So very very hard. Eddy: Yeah. I've, I've been the same, being away from the crew I work with has been really strange. Like, you know, when you spend so much time together in the studio and you all genuinely love each other and enjoy each other's company, it's, you lose a lot being away from that. Courtney: Yeah, for sure. It's um, it's just like another family and being separated from your family. It's really hard. Eddy: Yeah. Courtney: Mmm But I'm, I'm super keen to get back into it. It's it's going to be really interesting to see what the landscape is like after this, ah global pandemic. Eddy: Yes. Yeah. Are you guys allowed to, um, have the whole crew tattooing at once or are you going to have to stagger appointments and everything? Cause it's a small, smaller studio. Courtney: Yeah. Um, technically we could all be working at one time, but we want to make it as safe and, um, Yeah, just as safe as possible for all of us and all of our clients as well. So we're going to go back on, um, each of us doing less days and, uh, doing sort of like a rotating roster. So there's no more than like four, four artists in the studio at the one time. Eddy: We're doing exactly the same here as well. Courtney: Yeah, I think it's just the safest way. I mean, it's, it's what I feel comfortable with as well. Like I don't know how I would feel about going straight back into it with everyone in the shop. Um, I'm not necessarily super concerned for my own health, but just, you know, you want to keep it as like safe and, you know, uh, responsible as we can, I guess. And this is just another layer of it. Eddy: Yeah, it would be difficult to live with, you know, knowing that it might've been spread in your work space or by you. I don't think I, I would be okay with that. Courtney: Not at all, not at all. I'd feel so guilty, that would be awful. Eddy: Yeah. We take everything like about our practice so seriously that I like it's hard enough that we actually hurt it hurt people doing the tattoo, let alone hurting them in other ways. Courtney: Yeah, exactly. And I guess, I guess the tattoo industry is probably the most prepared for it as well. You know, we're all very, uh, careful with, you know, hygiene standards and all that kind of thing. So, um, I feel confident in our ability to go back and work safely. Eddy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Courtney: Not just my studio. I feel like, you know, as a whole, most of the places that I've you know guested in and most of the people I know in, in the tattoo industry and lucky enough to call my friends are also taking it extremely seriously. So I think, um, that's a definite positive in this situation. Eddy: Yeah, a hundred percent, you know, we don't want to put anything at risk of like ever losing tattooing again, I think having it taken away from us for a couple of months it's if anything, it shows you just how important it is in your life and how much you love and need it.Courtney: Oh, definitely. I think in your first episode you said something like it's been so hard having, having that craft taken away from you and that, that that nailed exactly how I felt. Cause I was like, yeah, it's like the actual physical ritual of tattooing. That's what I'm I miss so much along with the social interactions of course, but like just not being able to do that thing that you love the most in your life. That's been really hard. Eddy: Yeah. I feel like we differ as well from some other industries in that we actually really love this, this is what we dream about. This is what we think about when we go home. Like, you know, this isn't just a job we do to get a paycheck. It's it's like in our fucking, every fiber of our being. Courtney: A hundred percent, the way I feel about tattooing is similar to, um, well, I, I hold it similar to how sailors feel about the ocean. You know, how there's a lot of songs and old hymns about the ocean is there one true love. She might be a cruel mistress sometimes. But she's this all encapsulating, you know, soulmate. And that's how I feel about tattooing. So being separated has been, has been hard, but it has been a nice break as well. Eddy: Yeah, especially every, I think everyone I've spoken to who is at that 10 year mark, like we are, it's like 10 years of working every single day and night and like never stopping. And every holiday has been including tattooing because, you know, tattooers, don't just take holidays for themselves. They do guest spots and conventions. And so, yeah, this is for many of us, this will be the first time we've ever actually like taken a moment.Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's pretty, pretty heavy to think about. Uh, I personally I've struggled a lot. Because, um, I thrive off routine, but I'm awful at putting myself into a routine. So going and going to the studio and having, having the rest of my life centered around. Being at the studio and tattooing, and then having all of that taken away and me left up to my own devices. It's been quite difficult. Eddy: Yeah. Even, even someone who's as hard working and motivated as you. Yeah. If you don't have that routine that you've worked so hard to create. It's just like, who am I? What do I do now? Like, stand under the shower crying for a couple of hours a day. I don't know. Courtney: Yeah exactly, just lie face down on my floor, I guess for a four hour nap. What else am I going to do? Eddy: Thank goodness for cats though really. Courtney: Oh yeah. Yeah. That's that has been great. My cats have absolutely loved me being in isolation. It's been the best time of their life. Yeah. Anytime they ask for biscuits they're getting it, you know, they've got my body heat keeping them warm all day. They're loving it, which you know, that's another positive from it as well. I guess. Eddy: Absolutely. One of, one of my cats, cause I have four and he's like, I know it's naughty to say, but he's my favorite. He's just been like getting extra treats and extra food that he's got his, this like beautiful little isolation boddy happening at the moment. And it's like perfect for winter because he's just so warm and round and cuddly and it's Oh. Courtney: You've got a those curly haired cats, right?Eddy: Yeah. A little Devon Rexes. Courtney: Yeah. So is their fur, they've got quite thin fur right? Eddy: Yeah, it's super thin. Courtney: Do you need to put them in like little jackets for winter or anything? Eddy: My mine don't like jackets, but they literally just like follow us around and are attached to us. You know, they're in front of any heater. They live under blankets. Like my youngest one spends probably half the day underneath the doona on our bed.Courtney: Oh, I love it when they do that, I love that so much. Often my cat, like she'll, she'll get up when I get up. But someday she'll be like, you know what, I'm going back to bed and like crawl back under the covers. Eddy: It's the best when they sleep in with you as well. And you both lay there, like I know I've got to get up. I have breakfast, but this is warm.Courtney: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That honestly that's been me every day for the last, like two months, I'm like I should get off and start my day but I'm going to lay in bed for another two hours scrolling on Instagram and watching YouTube with my cat. Eddy: Well, even this morning when we messaged each other about today, we'll both like I have a cat on me.Courtney: Yeah, yeah exactly. I'm not quite willing to move just yet, she's being very cute. But that's been really great. And that's been, it's been, um, this whole experience has really put a lot of things into perspective and made me realize how lucky I am to live in a house that I'm comfortable in. Live in the city that I love, you know, I'm fortunate enough to be able to have a pet too, that I can, that I can care for, um, financially and emotionally. Um, so yeah, I really feel for everyone out there who's, you know, in isolation, living on their own, maybe hasn't had a lot of contact. I just, I can't imagine how hard it's been. Eddy: Yeah. It really makes you reflect on your privileges in life. And, you know, I think we get really complacent every day and complain about things that in the grand scheme of things don't actually matter. And, you know, watching this whole pandemic unfold across the world and you know, our friends in the US and, you know, not getting any support at all, and some of them losing their shops and homes, and, you know, while we're sitting quite comfortably here, like if you don't reflect on that privilege, there's probably something very amiss.Courtney: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. I just never thought we'd live through something like this. I a hundred percent thought we'd turn the corner of this month and it'd be like zombies, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But that could also be me poisoning my own mind and just watching far too many horror movies. Eddy: I can't even do horror movies. I have nightmares and I'm a little bit soft around the edges. I do sci-fi but not horror. Courtney: Yeah. I can understand that. You know, I, there was a long period in my life, in high school where the early stage of high school where I was like, Oh no, not horror movies. It's like, I'm not into it. And then I dunno, just like this switch flipped in my brain. And it's honestly like the first thing that I always go for, which can, you know, lead to some interesting personality traits but what are you going to do? It's the same as, I don't know. I don't know. We're talking about are what podcasts we listen to? I listened to a lot of true crime and there are there points in my life where I've had to be like okay we need to have a detox from this because I live in the safest suburb and I'll be like, locking my windows and doors being like, I'm going to be invaded. My house is going to be invaded. Like someone's going to murder me for sure. So, yeah, there's a lot of, um, that kind of stuff that I love that I have to limit myself to.Eddy: Amazing. I've actually, I've been watching Killing Eve lately, which is like so amazing and just all of the ways that she murders people, it's just like, yeah, that's a, that's a good way to deal with some really toxic men in the world. Courtney: Killing Eve is so fantastic. It's such a good show. Eddy: Yeah. It's so like, Wonderful to see a show with queer representation where women are not objectified, like Villanelle is stunning and stylish and crazy, but as beautiful as she is, I don't feel like her costuming or the camera angles or anything about the story ever objectifies her.Courtney: Hmm. I think it's because, uh, they've built her into a complex character. She's not dressed like this Hottie that goes around killing people in hot clothes. She's got, uh, complexities to her, she's a round flawed, but rounded character. So, um, yeah, I love that show so much. Eddy: Yeah. It's also really good to see women being represented in TV in a way where they are like, well, rounded and multidimensional. You often see the characters in shows, like for example, Stranger Things, which I love, but you know, the lead character is powerful, but she doesn't speak much or, you know, got other characters, you know, there who do speak a lot and they're teased for that. And then there may be like, You know, not used in other ways like women and like, you know, non binary and trans people aren't given like characters where, you know, they're fully, well-rounded like male characters are, and it's even interesting how men respond to shows like that. Um, someone the other day was telling me that some guys were like, Oh, how come all the male characters in Killing Eve are like really dumb, and the only smart ones get killed. Like, Oh, we wouldn't know anything about that happening like to people who aren't men. Yeah.Courtney: Yeah. It's been, it's been really nice the last, I don't know, the last few years seeing more storylines centered around female, non binary and queer characters in an empowering way. Um, I don't know if you've ever, have you ever watched The L Word? Eddy: I did many, many years ago when the original show came out, but I haven't rewatched it or there's a new series isn't there? Courtney: There's a new season out. And, um, The L Word was great when it first came out. If you rewatch it now it's extremely problematic. Um, a lot of, a lot of transphobia and, and that kind of thing. Um, but the new season is fantastic. I mean, there's still some flaws there. We don't see a lot of different, um, body types.Eddy: Yeah. Courtney: But, uh, it's nice to see people of color, uh, non binary, uh, non-gender conforming people. Um, and it's so nice seeing queer love stories coming to fruition, um, without it being completely tragic. Eddy: Yep. Courtney: I mean, there's still some of that in the L Word, because it is a soap opera so you need that drama, but it is nice and Hollywood as well. I'm not sure if you've watched Hollywood on Netflix. Eddy: It's Amazing. It is amazing. Courtney: It's so good. Yeah, definitely not what, not what I was expecting. Just because you know, it's from Ryan Murphy. So every episode I was like, Ooh, I was like waiting for someone to get murdered or for some like ghost to pop up in the background or something like that. But it was just like a really lovely story.Eddy: Yeah. It was just so beautiful. This idea of being able to rewrite history where, you know, Rock Hudson was able to come out and be a gay man and not, you know, live his entire life and then come out just before he died of AIDS, you know, like, which is what happened in reality. It's just, yeah, it's really lovely how things are rewritten. And She-Ra is amazing as well because it's completely diverse. It's so, it's probably the most inclusive show I've ever seen and it's happy and it's happy endings and it's beautiful. And it just makes you feel so full of joy. Courtney: Yeah. I think those storylines, especially at such a troubling time as now are even more important, you know, cause it is, it is hard to sit down at the moment and like watch something that's super heavy and serious, you know, we need a little bit of light in our lives.Eddy: We do. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's, it's really interesting because I feel like. This change is happening across arts, everywhere. Like, you know, we're seeing much more representation, um, in TV and film, but it's happening in tattooing as well, where, you know, we're celebrating different kinds of bodies, more, we're like, Inviting different kinds of artists and styles, and we're giving people a space to be themselves without all of that toxic judgment that has weighed the industry down for so long.Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. And I think I was thinking about this earlier today and I really think the changes in the tattoo industry. Um, we can really thank from, we can really thank grassroots efforts. That's what I believe in. Like, I'm not, um, I'm not a very organized person. Like I can't what you did with Not Just A Girl Flash Day and like building that up and with this podcast. And you've got a very clear vision and, um, you're very articulate in the way that you voice your opinions and standpoints. Eddy: Oh thank you.Courtney: Um, I often feel like I'm a rambling mess. I find, uh, I, I, I affect change the best way I affect change is by, um, just trying to be positive, creating like a very equal environment around me that hopefully people don't ever feel self conscious about anything around me. And I feel like my attitude is reflective in a lot of other people. And that's why we have seen such a nice change in our tattoo industry, because there's just a lot of nice people doing the right thing. Eddy: There is. Yeah, absolutely. Courtney: And it's good to see. Eddy: Yeah. And that's the only way we move forward. Like, uh, it's something that I spoke about with Onnie the other day, how it takes all different kinds of people. Like approaching it in all different ways to affect change. Like, you know, you do need that person holding the fucking Molotov cocktail, like screaming down the street. You need that person who's gently nudging and putting like soft reminders. Like you need the whole spectrum in order to affect change because different people are going to hear um, things in different ways and resist change according to their own perception or experience. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah, definitely, I, a hundred percent agree. It takes, it takes everyone. W as long as we're all working and you're doing your best, they get the best you can. And you're putting as much energy as you can into doing the right thing, then we're going to have positive outcomes.Eddy: Absolutely. Courtney: And I think, I think it's a good thing to remember because a lot of people, um, especially like, uh, With what we saw with, uh, the fires this summer, you know, a lot of people were just feeling like really helpless and like, Oh, I can't do anything about it. And it's like, you don't have to, even if, even if it's just like reposting something on your Instagram, that's helping, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to be driving out to the country and fighting the fires yourself.Eddy: Exactly. Courtney: As long as you're, as long as you pushing towards the right thing, that's all that matters. Eddy: Yeah, well, you and Avalon and the whole crew at The Grand Illusion have always contributed a lot to the community. You guys do charity work and you do flash days, and it's always really beautiful seeing how much you guys contribute to a better world.Courtney: Oh, thank you. Yeah, we we all try really hard. I think. I mean, I don't want to speak for everyone in the shop, but I feel like the general consensus with us is that, um, We love what we do. We love our community. Um, and we love tattooing so much that it just feels right to be able to give back, you know, we might not be able to, we may not be able to spend the time, you know, putting the actual labor into you know, helping at a soup kitchen or whatever, but, you know, we can, we can affect change through art, which is such a great feeling. Eddy: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, you definitely do that through your art. Like, you know, your pinups and everything are always so powerful and beautiful. And I think you also do it through your podcast too. Like the fact that you have a podcast that's celebrating Drag, like the more we can talk about like queer culture and everything, you know, the more that helps affect change as well. Like, you know, would you like to tell our listeners about Down To Clown? Courtney: Of sure. Yeah. Um, I have a podcast with, uh, my best friend, Georgia it's called Down To Clown. Um, Basically, we just talk about each episode of RuPaul's drag race as it comes out and yeah, just, we just talk shit basically, but we really, we really love to take the time to highlight, um, what we're seeing in the TV show. Um, and we also like to talk about as much local drag events and queer events, um, and creators as we possibly can because it's, um, It's just super important to the both of us really. And it's just nice to be able to put some, you know, light kind of light entertainment out there. You know.Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Um, and there's like such a great scene in Melbourne for drag at the moment as well. Like there always seems to be shows happening and like performances. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. We're um, we're very spoiled for choice here. It's fantastic. I cannot wait until all the bars open again. Eddy: Yes. We've only recently had, um, kind of regular drag shows happening in Newcastle before the shutdown, but hopefully they can continue again after lockdown. Courtney: Yeah. And I mean like all it takes and this goes for wherever you are. Um, wherever you're listening to this from all it takes is to go to your local drag show, you know, don't and, and, you know, keep an open mind. Don't expect to see drag that you're seeing on, um, on Drag Race. Go with an open mind, be open to new experiences because there's a lot of people, um, putting really fantastic stuff out there that you may have never seen before. So I think it's important to keep an open mind about that as well. Uh, in February, I was actually up in Sydney, a guest spotting at Stone Heart.Eddy: Oh was that for the Madi Gras?Courtney: Yeah, for the Madi Gras Flash Day and we all went out and we ended up at this queer event and there was a performer, a drag performer dressed as a sloth. Eddy: Oh my God. Courtney: Right. Draped over this couch, performing to Kyle Minogue's Slow. And it was honestly the best thing I've ever seen. I was like, this is genius. It's so smart. So yeah, I guess, I guess my message with Down To Clown is, uh, Keep an open mind and support your local drag acts. Eddy: Yeah, I guess another thing about the local drag acts is a lot of the time, you know, there's people who aren't in privileged positions with a lot of money and costumes, like what we're seeing on TV, or they're just starting out and trying to find their confidence and trying to find their own style as a performer as well. And if we don't show up and support them, then like how do they grow and how do they ever reach those heights that they have the potential for. Courtney: Yeah, exactly. And I think, uh, with Drag, the most important thing about Drag is that it's just self-expression so it doesn't matter if you've got a lot of money behind it, like that shouldn't be the case. You shouldn't be going to a drag show and expecting to see, you know, gown's and outfits that are, you know, thousands upon thousands of dollars, you should just be going to support someone else's self-expression and, uh, see how it impacts your experience as well. Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think in this weird, like, Instagram culture we've got going we've almost lost sight of what self-expression really means. Like, I think, you know, people limit themselves of like, I can't afford those beautiful things so I can't really express myself fully. And you know, there's so there's so many ways to do it. Like tattoos, hair, I don't know, like just the way you hold yourself, the way you speak, anything. There's so many ways to express yourself. Courtney: Yeah, definitely. I think, um, I mean, I love Instagram. It's a fantastic business tool for us and it's a great way to connect with people in your creative community, for sure. I don't think it, I think we have to keep in mind the damaging effects that social media can have. I call it a, it might be a bit mean, but I call it beige culture. And I think the Kardashians to blame for a lot of it. That, you know, for a while, there the lust to be exactly like Kylie Jenner or Kim Kardashian completely erased subcultures for a while there.Eddy: It did, it really did.Courtney: Like I was not seeing any new, like I was not seeing any baby goths or anything for awhile, then I was like, where are they? Eddy: Yeah, it's so crazy. Courtney: But I think luckily we're having a turnaround now where, um, you know, subcultures are getting stronger again and, you know, people are finding their voice and, um, Less afraid to be different.Eddy: Yeah. I'm particularly loving the Western thing that's happening at the moment, you know, with like Orville, um, and is it Orville? Yeah.Courtney: Yeah, Orville Peck, yeah.Eddy: [And you know, like Lil Nas and everyone's like reliving their love for Dolly, which is important. Um, but yeah.Courtney: Very important. It's really good to see and it's just like, You know, anyone younger out there is listening. Just follow your heart, dress the way you want to dress expresses, express yourself the way you want to express yourself. As long as you're not hurting anyone.Eddy: Exactly.Courtney: Who cares if you're different to everyone else and you don't need, you don't need money to get by. I think that's another big issue within the tattoo community. There's a lot of people who put way too much value on making money, being like a baller, um buying all this like Gucci stuff. Eddy: Rolexes. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. And it, and I think that sends the wrong message. Eddy: Yeah. Courtney: A lot of the time where it's like that it's becoming more, what can tattooing do for you rather than what can you give back to tattooing.Eddy: A hundred percent. Courtney: It's easy for me to say that because I've never had a big drive for material stuff. Eddy: I really love buying clothes and stuff, but yeah, I still would never, uh, use tattooing as my means to fund that in, in the way that perhaps some do like, you know, I believe in artists getting paid, what they're worth, because this job is difficult and it is a luxury, but at the same time, Yeah it's, it's about the art first and foremost, and the customer and making sure that they're happy because they're the ones living with it. Like, you know, the fancy boots that you get to buy at the end of the week. Like they've got nothing on how that person feels about their body. Courtney: Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think, um, This law, this time of isolation, for a lot of tattooers, a loss of income. It's hopefully been a good time to reflect and reevaluate what's, what's important. There's nothing wrong, you know, like if you are a money motivated, then like, cool, that's your thing. But as long as it's, because it's what you want to do. And because that's your personal goal, not because oh everyone else on Instagram who tattoos has like Gucci slides so I need Gucci slides. You know what I mean? Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. Courtney: As long as you follow your own path and, um, what you desire, I think that's important. Eddy: A hundred percent. Courtney: But I'm quite anti-capitalists so.Eddy: I know I'm I'm, you know, theoretically I'm very anti-capitalist but I still get suckered into buying shit all the time. Courtney: Oh yeah. Well, I mean, it's impossible. It's shoved down our throats 24 seven, you know, like how can you avoid it? I'm definitely no Saint I definitely, um, Buy a lot of shit that I shouldn't be buying. Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, that's another thing with like, isolation that I've been able to reflect on the fact that actually when I'm feeling a bit shit, that's when I go and start buying stuff. So maybe I need to recognize those feelings, sit in them for a bit and look at other ways of having an outlet. Like, you know, maybe I can try and channel it to something more creative and more helpful or something more community based. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's like a really positive way of looking at it, but also I don't feel guilty for buying stuff occasionally.Eddy: Yeah. I mean, we have enough guilt. We live in this friggin colonialist Catholic patriarchal society that loves making us hate ourselves and feel guilty about every decision we make. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess, um, from my standpoint, I guess I lean in a little bit to hedonism, so it's, uh, I don't like anyone feeling guilty for something that makes them feel good as long as there's no one's getting hurt.Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. Yep. I agree. And that's what the interesting thing about like what we're talking about with the whole like Kardashian culture, like on one level, I'm kind of like oh, yeah, like they're seeing the flaw in the system and they're using it against itself to set themselves up in life. But then at the same time, they're like they're removing this whole idea of doing things because you love it or doing things because it makes you feel good. And just focusing on fitting in to very, very, very small, specific idea of what you have to be. And there's, there's no joy in it. There's no personality in it. Courtney: Yeah, I've got to say when, when the Kardashians started rising to fame, I did have like that respect for them where I was like, well, you have really done, really build a whole empire out of nothing, really, and props to them and you know, like, being all woman as well. It's like, yeah. Cool. But yeah, they've come and have success they've garnered and the amount of wealth and power they have, and they're still on Instagram, promoting skinny tees and, and you know, shit like that. So, um, I just can't. I just kind of have any respect for that. Eddy: Nah fucking patriarchal pawns. It's horrible, but this is why I love Dolly Parton because you know, when she was a kid, she saw a lady and that she wanted to look like, and she spent her whole life shaping herself to be this image of what she thinks is beautiful and doing it so unashamedly and doing everything that she wants to do to bring herself joy, but then also genuinely giving back to people without expecting anything in return.Courtney: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And just, um, you know, I might not agree with her religious views, but she's always just been putting positivity out there. She's always been about positivity, love and acceptance, regardless of her religious views. So I think a lot of people should be taking a lesson from Dolly Parton. Eddy: A hundred percent, except f or yeah obviously.Courtney: Plus her music just makes you feel good.Eddy: Oh my God. Nine to five. It's the Anthem of my life. Courtney: Yeah. I remember when I was working at the last studio I worked at, at Voodoo. I was driving into work blasting nine to five, like, yes, this is my anthem. I'm like, fuck the man. Fuck 9 to 5. Meanwhile, driving to work at about 11:00 AM, knowing I was ony going to be at the studio for a few hours.Eddy: But it's the most like socialist song like to ever come out of the eighties. It's fucking brilliant. Courtney: Yeah yeah.Eddy: We can all relate. Even if we don't work nine to five. And even if we do work for ourselves, you know, we're still paying the man with our taxes. Right. Same thing.Courtney: Exactly. And I think um ah Anka on your episode said, um, she's the worst boss she's ever had. And I related to that so hard, I was like, yeah same, no one’s been as awful and as much of a hard task master as I have been too myself. Eddy: Yeah. Oh same. Sometimes I have to like really kind of stop myself and watch how I'm behaving, because I don't want to be that kind of boss to the people I work with. I like micromanaging the fuck out of myself to a point where it's really exhausting and yeah, I don't want to do, don't want to do that to another person, they're already doing it to themselves.Courtney: I bet that must just be such a hard balance for you. Uh, not only managing yourself, but managing a studio and trying to manage the people within that studio, but also not managing them too much. That seems like a very hard line to walk. Eddy: Yeah. I have very like clear goals and ideas of what I want FLT to be about and how I want it to be represented, and how I want things to play out in the studio. But then at the same time, like I really fucking love and respect the people I work with and I want them to feel free and individual. So it's like, you know, the part of me who's just like, wants to be the supportive friend and uplift all of them is like, yeah, just do whatever you want. And then the other part of me, who's like, I can see it, a drop of ink on the ground can you please clean it up right now? Courtney: You need, you need to get yourself a Sully, like what we have. Eddy: Well currently I have. Courtney: Where you can be like, sorry, you go.Eddy: No, I was going to say, Currently, I have a, an amazing apprentice who, who does help, help me keep everything in line, but one day she'll be tattooing and I won't have that anymore. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. It's true. True. Yeah. Honestly, Josh's decision to take on Sully. Um, at The Grand Illusion was probably the best decision he's made since I've been there. Eddy: Awesome. Courtney: At first I was like, you know, if you want to hire someone, that's cool. Like, you know, I'm not bothered. I don't mind setting up for myself and all this kind of thing. And now that Sully's here, I'm like, I never want to set up for myself ever again. Eddy: Like do you go on a guest spot and be like, I don't, I don't even know what to do now. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, Oh shit, I've gotta factor like 20 minutes either side for setting up and packing down, usually more because I'm like talking shit while I'm doing it. And not like, you know, not doing it as efficiently as I should. Um, so yeah, I'm very spoiled in that respect. Eddy: Same. It takes me so long to set up and then I like to put my needles in my tube and my machine together and everything in front of the client so that they can see that everything's done cleanly and professionally, and that like, I'll be sitting there chatting to them away about whatever bullshit we're talking about. And it'll take me 15 minutes just to get the fucking needle in the tube. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I like doing that too, but I like to do that because I, like, I like to get all that chattiness out first, you know while I'm setting up and you know, like, you know, we're chatting away and then once I get into the linework I'm like, okay, let's let let's chill. I'm not going to be so chatty now. Like it's just focus from here on out. Eddy: It's so hard sometimes to like, communicate that to the client as well. Like. I'm not ignoring you. I really do like what you're saying, but please just let me Courtney: I'm happy. I'm happy for, to take someone on whatever journey they want, you know, like I'm happy if someone's super chatty, I'm happy to be super chatty back. Um, if someone wants to sit there with ear, like, you know, earphones in and just like watching YouTube or listen to their own music, I'm chill with that too. Um, luckily, luckily The Grand Illusion, because it's one big open room and we're all constantly having conversations across the room. Um, one, when I'm doing my line work, It's it's easy for my client to slip into the conversations in the room and then I can, I can focus.Eddy: Yeah. Courtney: But I'm also not, I'm also not afraid to be like, Oh, okay um, during linework, I'm not going to be so chatty, but once we start shading, We're back on. Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. It's so good. When there's other people to distract them, like other clients saying stuff. Yeah. I that's what I love about having a studio that is a big open room because I don't know, it feels so much more joyful. And I think clients walk away like sometimes making new friends or just having, like, I don't know a more fulfilling experience maybe. Courtney: Yeah. I love it when clients make friends in the shop, it happens so often where they start up a little conversation and then they'll follow each other on Instagram when they're done, is so lovely. I'm like, yay.Eddy: It's so good. Yeah. Courtney: We could all use more friends. We could all use more friends and more connections. Eddy: Yeah, a hundred percent. And like you mentioned, um, earlier, that you know, as adults, we find it really difficult to make those connections now and you know, that's yeah, like you said, we're really lucky in tattooing where we actually get to make connections every single day and they can be really meaningful connections. And I think because there's something so intimate about what we do. And we can really get a much deeper sense of a person in that time we spend with them. Like the connections can be much more, um, real, for lack of a better word. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. It's also, um, surely you would find it as well. It's it's also an interesting, um, The dynamic. Cause I guess your clients follow you on Instagram quite awhile. So they sort of get a sense of your personality and what you like. Um, and then often we're at the backfoot. It's like, Oh, you, you know, all this stuff about me but I didn't know anything about you. So, um, that can be a little challenging at times. Or sometimes someone will bring up in a conversation, something they saw on my story. I'm like, How do you know that? Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And I have like a friggin memory like a sieve, you know, I've, I've gone up to customers and shook their hand and introduced myself and they're like, you tattooed me last month. And not because they weren't wonderful people and like nothing is that. I just literally forget things until I see the tattoo and then I'm fine. But yeah, it's, it's really weird because they, I think they, in knowing more about us, they kind of already perhaps feel more connected to us or, and we're, yeah. We're just like, Oh, I don't even know who you are, but you're very lovely. Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is quite nice, but, um, Yeah, it can, it can be challenging. And I do see a lot of people, a lot of other tattoo artists who are a little bit more introverted, kind of struggle with that a little bit. Um, it's not, it's not something I can relate to because I'm extremely assertive and extroverted, but I can understand how that could really throw somebody off.Eddy: Yeah.Courtney: For sure. Yeah. I've definitely accidentally forgotten people before or like I'll remember their face and like forget their name or I'm really shocking for only remembering people's Instagram name.Eddy: YeahCourtney: Which is sad. But if that's the way you're interacting with someone. You're going to remember them as like, whatever the hell I was going to try and think of someone's handle. But. I can't. I can't think of any. Eddy: I once saw someone's handle. And they were like, you know, every now and then they'd like, or something and it was vegan cum bucket. And it's probably the best Instagram handle I've ever heard in my life. And I was just like, if I ever met this person in real life, I wouldn't remember their name. I would literally just remember that handle. Courtney: Oh, yeah, there was an account. There was someone who used to really regularly like my, um, Instagram stuff. And I don't know if they've changed their name or whatever. Um, but I don't see it as much as I used to, but their Instagram handle was piss princess. And like for the rest of my life, I will remember that. How could you forget piss princess.Eddy: I always wish that like, yeah, we could have more creative names, but I feel like, you know, because we use it for business. We have to just use a specific name. Although I saw one tattooer whose Instagram handle was everybody poops. And every single time they come up in my feed, I giggle like a little fucking child.Courtney: I don't know though. I think like the tattoo stage name is a double edged sword. Like it's a life I live. Eddy: Miss. Quartz. Courtney: Yeah. Like people come into the studio, clients come into the studio and they'll be like, I've got an appointment with ah Miss Quartz, kinda say it under their breathe, like their embarrassed to say it. And also when I'm introducing myself to other tattooers, like, I don't want to walk up and be like, hi, you might know me from Instagram, I'm Miss Quartz, nice to meet you. I'm always like Hi I'm Courtney and then they'll be like, well, I have no fucking idea who you are. Eddy: Oh, that's amazing. Courtney: But then on the other hand, that's kind of a good thing because I would hate, I would hate for anyone. Like I would hate to, um, Make a connection because that person just wants to get to know me because of, I dunno, the like Instagram followers I have or whatever.Eddy: Yeah. Courtney: Not that I'm like this big, like this huge deal or whatever, but it's always in the back of my mind. So kind of having a stage name is kind of good sometimes when your meeting other tattooers cause it's like, okay, so you're a really genuine. You don't know who I am, but like you're having a conversation with me getting to know me as opposed to other people who are like, well, I don't know you, so I'm not putting any time into this.Eddy: Yeah. And that's such a thing that happens in tattooing. Like there's, I've literally gone to conventions where I've walked up to someone and be like, Hey, I'm Eddy, I'm a big fan of your work, and they just like, look me up and down and walk away. And it's like, do you, like you don't care that I'm a tattooer. You don't care who I am. Like, I wasn't someone who was famous, so you're not taking the time for me. And just, it's so insane. And there's artists who I haven't known or followed on Instagram. And then when I've met them, they've just been the most beautiful people who've, you know, become a really important part of my life. And if I didn't take the time to talk to them because they weren't Insta famous, I would have a huge hole in my life.Courtney: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Definitely. I think it's, um, Like what we were talking about before. It's so easy to be nice. It's just so easy to be nice. You really have to take your time, the time out of your day to be like rude and evil. Eddy: Yeah.Courtney: So, just be nice. Eddy: Yeah. I agree. A hundred percent. Like it's, it's so strange to think that people actually make those choices to, to hurt another person when you can just like, I don't know, say hi, give a hug. Courtney: Yeah, I think probably also, um, it's also wrapped up in, you know, whatever socialization we've had growing up. Um, and I guess the journey that you've had within the tattoo industry, because it has gone from, you know, the only way that you could succeed in this industry was by being like cool and like, You know, like not very nice and upholding this sort of like tough exterior. Um, and I think a lot of people still hold onto those values, which, which I just, I don't know. It just doesn't feel very nice. I think, I think it comes down to you have to make a decision within tattooing, whether you want it to feel like an industry or do you want it to feel like a community? Eddy: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. I agree. And I imagine that a lot of those more negative behaviors are wrapped up in a lot of trauma and fear and yeah, that, that, I guess, you know, being in a capitalist culture, we don't always actually understand the true meaning or value of culture sort of community rather until we're a part of one and actually see how wonderful it feels.Courtney: Yeah, definitely. And I think it also just within tattooing, because it is a, it is male dominated and most men, not all men, most men have grown up with, um, you're a man, you can't show your emotions. You have to have this tough exterior, um, you know, uh, Yeah, just that general vibe. I think. So. I think that's why tattooing was like that for a long time, but with more women and, um, just like more diversity in general is like really softening it. And I think it's a good thing. Eddy: Absolutely. Yeah. Courtney: [You shouldn't, sorry you go.Eddy: No, you go darl.Courtney: I just don't think you shouldn't be afraid to approach your peers, you know? Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And Melbourne, I think has set such a good example for the rest of Australia in terms of the tattoo community. I feel like every time I've ever gone there and guested there, I've seen artists catching up from different studios and forming friendships. And, you know, until I had actually visited Melbourne, I had never seen that. You know that was, certainly wasn't my experience here in Newcastle, where studios were very much against each other and it, I think. You know, that's something that, as we all like travel and guest and we're seeing those interactions in other places, and we're bringing it back to our own community and spreading that like kindness and friendship, tattooing in Australia is just getting so good. And because we're forming friendships, we're sharing information more readily and we're supporting each other and supporting each other out of, you know, negative situations. And you know, perhaps abusive like studios or whatever, and the change I've seen in tattooing I think it has a lot to do with that.Courtney: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. A hundred percent you nailed it. Eddy: Like, what's what's next for you? Are you going to be in Melbourne for the long terms? Do you think? Like, will you travel?Courtney: I was actually supposed to do a little bit of traveling this year, I think as pretty much everyone else I've spoken to. Um, I was, my sister has been living over in Scotland for the last two years and my plan was to go see her like, um, check out where she has been living and meet her friends. And then I was going to head to the, like, down to the UK and do some tattooing, but that's not going to happen now. So, I don't know what's next on the cards to me. I can't see myself leaving The Grand Illusion anytime soon. I just love it so much. And I love everyone I work with they're so, so supportive and lovely. Um, Honestly, I had such a blast last year, just traveling to different sites, um, Sydney and Perth and Queensland. That I'd be more than happy to just keep doing that, you now? Eddy: Yeah. That's awesome. Courtney: Tattooing, hanging out with my friends. That's all I'm about. Eddy: Oh, that's so good. Well, before we wrap it up today, is there anything you wanted to share with our listeners or anything else you wanted to talk about? Courtney: Um, I guess just if you're into Drag Race, come listen to our podcast. It's Down To Clown on Spotify, Spotify, SoundCloud, and iTunes, and where Down To Clown pod on Instagram. We often do toots and boots of every look each week, and we're about to start All Stars. So it's an exciting time for drag race fans. Eddy: Such a good lineup too. Courtney: Oh, I know I'm so excited Eddy: And Blair St Claire's transformation.Courtney: She looks fantastic. Everyone, everyone looks so rad. I'm so excited for JuJu, JuJubee to be back. And, um, I think Shea Coulee, like she's already my winner, in my eyes. So, um yeah. Eddy: I got to see Shea Coulee perform at um what was it? The Sickening Ball. And she fucking nailed it. Like everyone just kind of like, Oh my God, she's so amazing.Courtney: Yeah, she's definitely at the top of that list of Queens that I really want to see perform. Eddy: Awesome. Well, for our, uh, listeners, you'll be able to watch this footage on YouTube if you like as well. Um, please subscribe to the podcast and to our YouTube channel, follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Not Just A Girl underscore tattoo. Yeah. Please follow Courtney and our other amazing artists and give them a lots of love because they're amazing and they deserve it. And I hope you all have a wonderful day. Thank you so much, Courtney, for talking to me today. Courtney: Oh, my pleasure. It's been, it's been really fun and thanks for letting me ramble away.Eddy: I like the rambling. Courtney: Yeah, me too.Eddy: Bye.Courtney: Bye.

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notjustagirltattoopodcast · 4 years

Text

Not Just A Girl: Divine Feminine

You can listen to the tenth episode with Swasthik Iyengar here. Or you can find this interview on YouTube with English subtitles/closed captions here, there is no footage for this episode so you'll find a slideshow of Swasthik's work instead.

NOT JUST A GIRL: Tattoo Podcast

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Season 1, Episode 10: Divine Feminine

Eddy: Hello friends. Welcome to Not Just A Girl, the tattoo podcast where every week I speak to socially conscious tattooers about their lives and art practice through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm Eddy and thank you for joining me for episode 10. Today, we'll be discussing cultural influences, family and spirituality in tattooing. Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are the traditional custodians of this land that was stolen and never ceded. I am honored and grateful to be on the ancestral land of the Awabakal people. And I pay my respects to the Elders past and present and extend my recognition to their descendants.Today I get to speak with the resplendent Swasthik Iyengar. She works at Trailer Trash tattoo in Brisbane with Mimsy who featured in a previous episode, Swasthik's work really tells a story. It consists of clean, bold lines, strong, bright colors with imagery and symbols that are imbued with her spirituality and history. I'm so excited to chat to you today. Thank you so much for being a part of this podcast. Swasthik: Thank you. I'm pretty excited and nervous. Eddy: It's so nerve wracking doing an interview. Swasthik: It is definitely. Yeah. But thanks for having me. Eddy: Absolutely, well, like we've talked before about how tattooing runs in your family in India, and I'd really love to know more about that and how it's shaped your own practice.Swasthik: Yeah, absolutely. Um, So, Nan. I'm from the South and Nan, um, is in Chennai and she's been tattooing for over 40 years now. It's a little bit different over there. It's not like you, um, have an apprenticeship and yeah, and you, you start painting flash, it's, it's sort of like you get initiated. Or, you know, it runs in the family and it's usually because it's, um, for, I would say initiation markings or if someone's really sick. Um, and they went and saw a medicine healer. Um, they would come to see my Nan and get, um, certain markings on their body to try and, um, help them get cured. Um, So women, young girls going into womanhood, um, would get markings and would come see my Nan. So it's, it's such a special thing. It is, it's really special.Eddy: Wow, so there's alot of power behind the tattoos. Like they're a form of medicine. Swasthik: Definitely. Yeah. Eddy: That's incredible. Swasthik: And she makes her own medicine too. Um, like growing up over there if my, if I had a really sore belly, I remember she would put…which is like this white paste and she'd put it, she put it on my belly and, um, In like in a couple of hours, um, my stomach ache would go, so it's all really old there. It's really sort of traditional and it's old when you're, when you're out in India. Um, this there's not really any access to going into town or getting Panadol. Um, everything's sort of natural and organic. Um, so yeah. That's Nan.Eddy: That's amazing. That must be like being self sufficient in that way. And learning how to take care of yourself from the earth is such a powerful thing. Swasthik: It's special. And it helps me today. And I think it'll help me for the rest of rest of my life. It's it's um having that connection to the land, the ancestors and my gods. Um, my, my elders. Is um, It's shaped me as a person from, from such a young age and then moving to Australia. Um, and it's shaped my practice in, in with everything, not just tattooing. Um, yeah, so. Eddy: I feel like you can really, you can really read a rich history in, in the work that you do and see that those symbols you use are very personal to you. Swasthik: They are they, are I, um, with some, some of the Indian pattern work I do like the Kolangal Kolam is all things that, um, I would see Paati my Nana, um, and also my aunties and my, my sisters, my cousins. Would always, um, draw these patterns with organic powders and dirt in the sand, in front of the houses, they all have different meanings too. Like it depends on if there's a festival during that time, or if you're inviting a particular God, like say you're trying to invite baby Krishna or Ganesh, who is the remover of obstacles, or perhaps it's a full moon. And so, um, all the symbols, um, I just. I think it's just learnt behavior, you know, it's just like, it's just memory etched into me. And so, um, and just thought... instead of drawing or painting things that I'm not familiar with, maybe incorporating some of this stuff into my practice. Um. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: Might yeah, I don't know. No, no, it might just, um, help me or. Yeah. Yeah. Eddy: It brings something really special, I think, to tattooing because I've never seen at least you know, in my experience and in what I know about Australian tattooing, I have not seen the kind of imagery that you bring and it's very, very special to see something so powerful and so new, but so old at the same time.Swasthik: Thanks. Thanks so much, Eddy. It's. It's, you're making me nervous now. Um, yeah, I don't know. It's like, I guess I'm I still try and make it so that it works alongside, um, principles of tattooing. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: You know, but, um. Eddy: It definitely has elements of Western traditional like with the strong, bold lines, the use of open skin and saturated colors.Swasthik: Yes. See, I see it like, I think during my apprenticeship days, like I was painting flash and I was redrawing Sailor Jerry, and. Eddy: Awesome. Swasthik: And all of, all of that stuff, you know, painting Sailor Jerry flash, and, um, So that sort of taught me and still teaches me, like, I still got to do color studies hey, like I can't just paint or do stuff from the top of my head.Eddy: Same.Swasthik: Things like things take way longer. Yeah. Yeah. I can't, you know, so, um, I think I've sort of try and keep to that and by having that and practicing that I sort of instilled, trying to attempt to like fit my, um, imagery or the Hindu imagery, um, and traditional pattern work, um, within that sort of American traditional or traditional tattooing context.Eddy: Yeah. It works really beautifully. Swasthik: Aww thanks Eddy. I'm glad you like it.Eddy: With the imagery you're using, like, you know, this kind of visual language, has that been something that's inherited from your grandma. Is it something that it's more just used broadly within that religion? Or does your family create their own or have you created your own? Swasthik: Yeah, I think it's like all of the above, to be honest, I think the imagery comes from temples from Hindu stories. Um, people adapt when you go to every, when you go to people's houses in India, there's obviously like the common thread of particular rituals and, and having the images or having a particular style of God or setting it up in a certain way, but people might adapt drawing the traditional Kolum them differently, depending on, um, who's taught them or, or how they like it. And I think, um, Some of the spiritual stuff, um, that, that I've done just comes from meditation. Um, it's not necessarily, um, a depiction of an exact story, but a couple of different elements intertwined into sort of one painting. So I meditate like all the time. A lot. So I sort of get to see these things sort of come up randomly sometimes like even when I'm sleeping at nighttime, I'll just have weird dreams about it and I'll remember it or wake up and write it down and start a new day. Start, think about a new painting for the next day. Eddy: I really love that idea of you finding the images like inside yourself, because it's just such a strong connection and it's so much more authentic and powerful. It's yeah. It's something that I think a lot of us could learn to do like using meditation as a way of finding ourselves in our artmaking.Swasthik: Yeah. It's so hard. Hey, it's like what I was saying to you earlier, like I think, um, meditation is just as hard as as working out. Say if you want to, you know, tone up that doesn't happen overnight. And I feel like with meditation, with me, I'm still struggling. You know, even though I've done it for so long, there'll be moments where I don't meditate and trying to get back into meditation is very tricky. Um, but through meditation and through yoga, I do a lot of yoga as well. And just eating healthy and I can start to, um, chat, like I can start to bring in higher sorts and put, like just organic thoughts sort of come to me naturally. Um, when I'm in sort of a peaceful state, you know, of kind of a quiet state, a focused state. Umm when I don't meditate, I feel like my thoughts are kind of scattered and I'm a little bit stressed. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: And that doesn't help my tattoo practice either. Um, so Eddy: Cause tattooing's already so stressful. Swasthik: So highly strung hey, every tattoo seriously. Um, yeah. It's um, I dunno, it's a special, everyone's got their own meditation too. Like I think so you you'd have your particular meditation. Like I think even doing art is a meditative practice because you're sitting there drawing for, you know, some people can draw stuff so quickly. It takes me about when I'm working on a big painting, it takes me like two days to do all three days to draw. And then another week to paint it and it could be the most simplest subject matter, but I think that process is still meditation. Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. It's a very slow and measured process for me too. And I, I was oh we were talking earlier, but I mentioned how I didn't even realize that I actually do kind of use meditation in my process. Like I just hadn't put that word to it. Like every single tattoo I do before I do it. I kind of, while I'm doing the line drawing for the stencil, I'm sitting there visualizing the whole process and I visualize how I'm going to approach it, how I'm going to breathe, how I'm going to pull my hand, everything. So like I come to that tattoo almost having done it already. Swasthik: Yeah. Exactly.Eddy: And then I feel more balanced and relaxed coming into it. Whereas before that I'm like butterflies, nerves. I feel like I need to go have a bit of a cry in the bathroom before the client arrives. Like. Swasthik: Yes. I think like, yeah. It's so interesting. You say that because at the end of the day, tattooing is just ritual, right? Like when you set up the machines, nothing sort of changes. You've got your own way, your own set up, the way you set up your machines, um, the way you put on a stencil or it's still, it's such a ritual, it's such a meditative practice. Eddy: I think we really forget that and remove ourselves from that. Like how ritualistic it is. Swasthik: Yeah. Yeah. TrueEddy: We act like it's just a job, but it's actually so much more than that. And it comes with this entire like history of traditions.Swasthik: A hundred percent. I couldn't agree with you more. I think it's so sacred. I think it's, it's really special. Um, I don't know. I don't really look, it is, it is a job, but it's I'm lucky. I'm lucky. I don't know what else I would do if I wasn't tattooing, I love it. And I think, you know, whilst it is a job and I am providing a service to people to that the best I can umm to the best of my abilities. Umm I'm still immersed in such a beautiful craft that um, allows, you know, it allows me to see things differently, allows me to love art. It allows me to, to explore, um, my mind and to, um, explore subjects. Um, however, I would like to, um, um, within the context of art also within the context of tattooing, like everyone's skin is different. Everyone has a different body shape, size, everyone's unique and beautiful. Um.Eddy: Absolutely.Swasthik: So it's, um, yeah, it for sure it's job, but it's, to me, I'd like to say that it's, um, Oh, God. It's like, yeah. It's like my calling. I know that sounds lame, but I don't, I really don't know what else I would do if I wasn't tattooing. It's really special. Eddy: Yeah, I don't think that's lame at all. I think a lot of us feel that way, like, like where it's the only thing that makes sense for us to do, like, you know, obviously have other things going on in our lives that we love, but.Swasthik: Yes.Eddy: You know, in terms of what we commit our the majority of our time to.Swasthik: Lives.Eddy: It's just what, like, what else would there be? Swasthik: Yeah, like, don't get me wrong. I have so many other different hobbies and, um, things that I love doing, I'm immersed into or, like, reading about, but, um, If I was to choose something else to do, I wouldn't know, you know, I'd be terrible in an office job. And I respect people in office jobs. Cause I just couldn't do what they could do at all hey, like, but um, yeah, it's really special. I reckon Eddy, you were right. Eddy: Yeah, I always, I I'm always very thankful. Definitely like, you know, I'll have my little moments or I sook about a frustrating email or a difficult experience, but at the end of the day, like it's just complete and utter gratitude. Swasthik: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I definitely agree. Eddy: Do you find with your work, um, you know, because you know, it's a big part of your spiritual practice as well. Do you find that, um, you know, it, it's almost like a way of inviting a conversation with your clients. Like, you know, they're connecting to that imagery themselves and exploring their own spirituality and that's why they come to you?Swasthik: Umm. I think, um, A lot of my clients, um, sort of, some of them have been to India. Some of them have know the Hindu stories and can relate to the God, um, or have really enjoyed their time in India. And, um, and, and some of, some of my clients, um, sort of have their own imagery and their own spirituality. And want me to a sort of come up with something that represents that. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: And so I think, um, like I always have great conversations with my clients and often it is pretty trippy. Um, it gets deep, but in such a beautiful way to. It's never, it's never like too much. Um, it's been just a really beautiful connection and a really beautiful exchange. Um, So I think, I've forgotten the question now. I mean, I think, I think, um, I think people come to me for a whole different, all sorts of reasons, whether, whether they're into the story, whether they're into God, whether they've been to India, whether they're going to India, whether they have their own spiritual practice, um, you know, whether they like me and them are on the same vibe into the same things. But in any case, like it's a shared experience. Um, and it's always, it's always a lovely time. I always end up being friends with my clients. Eddy: Oh, that's so nice. Swasthik: There's never, there's never a time where I don't think I've felt, um, like, um, uncomfortable or sort of um frustrated. I've been really blessed to have, um, beautiful people cross my path, in the way of people that get tattooed and to share stories. I think this is my favorite part of this craft or this practice is that connection.Eddy: AbsolutelySwasthik: There's so many connections isn't there like this, the connection that you have to like the pra like the art. So when you start off and you're creating flash or whatever, then the connection that you have to the actual craft, because you're on your own. And it's really scary because you're marking people permanently, right? And then you have that connection that you have with the client and then to have to juggle. And, but not to be, you know, to make it real. Like, if I'm stressed about a tattoo, like, I will tell my clients like, bro, I I'm so sorry. I'm going to be real quiet now because I've got to focus. Like it's really comfortable that way. I think, you know, Eddy: I think when we can communicate with them really honestly they appreciate it too.Swasthik: Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. I think like there's no other way. You just got to be like honest. There's been moments where the, just a shared silence has been really nice. Eddy: Yeah. And that's such an intimate thing that sometimes that silence, it can be really, um, like restorative or healing. Swasthik: Yeah. I totally agree. Have you ever had people sort of say to you that like, Um, they sort of enjoy the pain and the, and they don't talk. And I respect that. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: Because I find that not, they find the pain, um, like a real healing process. Eddy: Yeah. It's almost like reminding them of the body they're in or, you know, I don't know. Yeah. It, it grounds them, I think. Swasthik: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's it like everyone's got their own perspective on why they get tattooed and, and what it means to them or what it doesn't mean to them. You know, they just want to get something fun or maybe they want a bet or a dare or maybe it's initiation. So Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: All different reasons. Hey. Eddy: I do think that like, in a lot of ways, getting tattooed, getting tattooed is a radical act. Like, you know, even if it's just for fun, just to be able to permanently mark your body in the sake of fun is radical. At all, or whether you're doing it because of that, just innate drive to express yourself or to be a part of a group or a culture. Swasthik: For sure. A hundred percent. Yeah, for sure. I think so. I do believe that. I think it's um, yeah man, I remember like when I first started getting tattooed and it was to fit in, but to fit in because I was so angry at my parents, I was actually really angry for being Indian because I wasn't having a good time in the Western world.Eddy: I'm so sorry. Swasthik: Oh, no, no, no, no. It's all, it's all history, it's all lessons and you grow. And it's so old this is like ages ago. It's like 20 years ago. But, um, I remember like I wasn't that religious back then either. I think I was like pre puberty. It was like when you're 17, 18, that kind of thing. And just mad and angry at the world. And, um, I started, um, getting tattoos cause I could see that the people that I could see that were getting tattoos were different and they were unique and beautiful and they didn't conform. Um, so I started getting the Gods tattooed on me, my Hindu gods tattooed on me. Um, but it made my mum really mad because in our tradition, you need to get that like, this is when I was 18. In our tradition, you need to get permission from the gods before you get them tattooed on you, because it's a huge thing. Like, and I know that sounds crazy, but, um, you know, I it's, it's like a respect thing. If you're going to get Kali Ma on your back, you need to ask for permission because she can cause you havoc.And so, I did. And it, yeah, my mum was like so mad at me. And, um, that was, um, I guess it's like what you were saying. It was a very radical, I was trying to fit in. I felt like the people that were my friends that got tattoos, didn't conform to everyone else, you know? So it is, it is a really radical kind of thing to do for sure. Eddy: And it sounds like, for you know, like it, it was a way of you finding yourself and like setting yourself apart and starting yourself on this journey. Swasthik: Yeah. Yeah, it definitely was. It definitely was because you're looking at your body every day and you see the tattoo. It's not like they can go anywhere hey, and you and it's just. It's just on you forever and it's a part of you. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: Yeah It did. Eddy: And it did.Swasthik: Sorry love, what were you going to say? Eddy: Oh no, you go.Swasthik: I've forgotten now. Eddy: Yeah. I was just going to say, like, you know, you mentioned you were having a hard time, so, you know, by, by like taking such ownership of yourself when you were having a hard time, you know, that can give yourself a lot of power and confidence to move forward as well.Swasthik: Yes, it does. It does. And, um, and it did, I think at that point, I was just quick to realize like, um, to accept my background, to celebrate it, um, to not be mad. I, I remember I was just, it was stupid, little things. I was like, why would you call me Swasthik? Why would you call me a name that is a Nazi symbol? Do you know? And it's, um, All of those little things that I just decided to let go and to accept and to love and to appreciate. Um, and it's funny because now I think my best friends are my family. It's my culture. It's my Gods. It's my ancestors. They have stuck by me with everything. Eddy: That's beautiful.Swasthik: Do, you know, over life and um, I'm so, I love it. I love India. Mmm. Love being Hindu. I'm very religious and very devout. So Yeah. Eddy: It's really beautiful how that comes across on your Instagram as well. Like I know that, you know, social media is not the biggest part of your life or anything, but you know, sometimes you'll post beautiful pictures or videos of your family and like of, you know, Rituals or things that you're doing together. And it's so lovely to see that little bit of insight into what you do. Swasthik: Oh yeah. I get nervous about putting stuff up sometimes ay I wonder if you do too, I wonder if it's just like, I think it's everyone. Cause you think that you're going to be judged wrongly. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: Would you share it? You know, do people really want to see that? But I think it's important because. It's not because it's a marketing ploy it's sometimes because I'm feeling something that day. And usually when I meditate and being so devout. These like bursts of emotions that run through me that shape my painting that day, or shape a practice or shape a thought, or my views about the world, the corrupt capitalist system that we have going, and I'm going on a tangent.Eddy: Oh no, I agree with you.Swasthik: But yes, you know what I mean, sometimes I'll, I'll just share it because. Um, I also, because I've got, I follow family on Instagram because they it's the only way to keep in contact with them, um, is, you know, when you're worlds apart, but I'll share it because it, I don't know, I'm happy to share it. I suppose it made my day, um, celebrate it, celebrate your fam family and your loved ones. And I truly love them. So Eddy: Yeah. And that's how it definitely comes across that you're celebrating them. Swasthik: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I guess that's it. I think. I think it's just human nature. Don't, you know, to love, you know, to have compassion, to celebrate our loved ones. Eddy: And we look for connections too like, whether it be with family or with friends or through the tattoo community, like we're really looking for connections. And that's how I use social media. Like I see it as invitational, like you know, any images I put up of myself, my cats, my life or anything, that's not necessarily a tattoo. I feel like I'm communicating who I am and who I want to be so that my potential clients, they can decide if they relate to that or not. And if they're going to be comfortable. Swasthik: Yeah, I totally agree as well, because I remember way before, when, before I had tattoos, I was quite intimidated to go into a tattoo shop. It was scary.Eddy: It was so scary.Swasthik: Because it was so cool. Yeah I know, and they're all covered in tattoos and, um, I think it was, it was way before Instagram even like, I didn't, I think I didn't even have a MySpace back then. So it was way before Instagram. It was actually really long time ago. Um, and I just remember like thinking, Oh, I hope this person that I get tattooed by is nice. I hope we have a lots to talk about, or if we don't talk about I hope, the silence isn't awkward. Um, but I think now having that um, option to have social media, um, and to be able to share little bits and pieces of your life, you create, you're able to create that you are a sort of element of connection. Like, you know, you post something of your cat, maybe someone's got the same cat. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: You know, and they want a portrait of their cat. Cause they're like, well, you have the same cat. So we can, we can talk about our cats. And I feel comfortable with you. Like I think. Eddy: And to be able to trust someone, you need to feel a connection. I think. Swasthik: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I think like, I don't know, everyone, everyone can choose how they want to market themselves. There's no right or wrong at all. You are entitled to do what you want to do. Um, and so, yeah, like I love seeing pictures of people in their, with their loved ones, with their husbands, wives, boyfriends, girlfriends, if it's their birthday, with their cats, you know, I love seeing photos of tattooers that I admire. Um, With other tattooers and it just makes my heart smile. Perhaps they've done a collaborative painting and they've got a picture of them holding the painting. It's just really sweet sometimes, you know? Yeah. Eddy: I love that too, because like my, my dream for tattooing is that we can be a really positive community for each other because you know, in the town that I've tattooed in a lot of experiences have been negative where we see each other as competition, or like, you know, you can't be friends with them because they work at that other shop, but I'm like, Swasthik: Oh man. Eddy: I love it. When other shops come together, I love it. When tattooers from so-called competing studios work together. It's just so heartwarming. Swasthik: Yeah. And it should seriously, like. Isn't that what it should be about. Cause at the end of the day, like going deeper and being a bit more of a tripper, we're all the same, we're all made a flesh, blood, piss, bones. Noone's better than anyone else. Eddy: Absolutely. Swasthik: Do you know what I mean? And so, you know that sort of side, I think you're gonna get that in anything now, now we're going like, especially in this sort of mad capitalistic world, it doesn't matter if it's tattooing or if it's something else. I think you're always going to get that, but that's what I love about. I don't know if you feel the same way. There's, there's a lot of, there's a couple of tattooers that I truly idolize and love and can't wait to get tattooed by. And I think they've been tattooing pre Instagram generation. And, um, I think that I see them, um, with other tattooers and you can see that the real love and a real community sense of community and a real friendship, cause they would have relied solely on visiting each other at shops or, um, like bumping into someone at a gig, you know, organizing dinners to be able to have that.But I think that whole notion of competition has been something. Um, and I was having a chat to a girlfriend about this actually, um, I think social media has a lot to do with that now, creating that sort of air um, as well as what you were saying, like in the physical, you know, when certain shops aren't meant to interact with each other, which I just find really sad. Cause we can learn from each other, you know.Eddy: We're missing out on opportunities. Swasthik: Yeah, we are. Yeah. I, um, yeah man, I agree. I absolutely agree. Like there's so many people where I, um, fuck, like you just think about some of those incredible realism artists. I'd love to learn what they do. Do you know what I mean? I'd love to watch a realism tattooer just do their thing. Cause it's something that I could never do and I find it so fascinating. Eddy: And yeah, by being friendly with each other and watching each other and spending time with each other, that's how we learn and improve. Swasthik: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Eddy: That's why that's why traveling is so great.Swasthik: Oh yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think it, um, I think it puts things into perspective a lot. Yeah.Eddy: Absolutely. Swasthik: For sure. Eddy: Do, do you get a chance to travel much with your work? Swasthik: Umm. I haven't recently, I go to India like twice a year. Uh, sometimes go to Nepal. Um, I sorta get my inspiration to, as soon as I go to India and I come back, I'm reenergized and, um, re inspired, um, And then I'll start creating, but I haven't really had the chance to travel for work. And I'm not sure when I will, especially with the current situation at the moment.Eddy: Yeah, it makes it hard.Swasthik: I was gonna. Yeah, I know. Right. I was gonna this year, I wanted to get tattooed by some people that I truly, I love their work, um, overseas. Um, but after this it um obviously didn't happen. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: But um, yeah like I'd love to travel at some point and, um, tattoo and learn, watch people tattoo and grow more as an artist.Eddy: Yeah.Swasthik: I think that would be cool. Eddy: You definitely do. I know that like just. Every, every single time I get tattooed by someone and watching them work, I'll pick up like a little trick. And like, I'm not copying their work or anything, but you just like learn a little trick. Whether it be like the way they flick their wrist, or I don't know the way that they dip between colors or I don't know, just like little tiny subtleties that you notice and that can change everything for you. Swasthik: Aw man. Yes. I feel like I pick up on those things every day when I'm at work, like when I stop for 10 minutes and go down the stairs to watch someone tattoo or just to say G'day, I'll pick something up that I just don't know why I didn't like think of that way before.Eddy: Yep.Swasthik: You know what I mean? Like your life would have been easier if you did that. Um. Eddy: Yep. That's why I love working with so many people. Like there's seven of us at the moment in the studio. It's so nice. Yeah. Like getting the different opinions and the critiques and watching them work and everyone's got such a different way of going about it.Swasthik: That's awesome, man. Yeah. I love that. I also love how people can help you just being that second set of eyes. Like when you put a stencil on and just having an awesome work colleague, that's there to go look, I think it's like two mil off. That's saved me so many, so many times. Cause in your, in your mind, you think it's straight and then someone will tell you, and be like, Oh shit, I was so off, you know?Eddy: Cause we yeah, we do get like this kind of weird blinker on for ourselves where like, you know, we've in our mind, we've decided how we want it to look. So sometimes it's really hard to see it as it actually is other than how it, how we intend it to look. So, you know, you might think a stencils straight and then someone will be like, Oh nah, maybe not.Swasthik: Yeah I know. Yeah, I'm so grateful for that. I'm so, I love the people I work with. They're so funny and so talented and um, so helpful. I'm so grateful to be there because it's Mimsy. You know, you interviewed Mimsy, so yeah at Trailer Trash.Eddy: Such an amazing crew. Swasthik: Yeah. She's special though. Eddy: She is, I love how we were both talking before the interview about how, you know, when we guested with Mimsy, it kind of like changed everything for us. And where you get to open your eyes and like, Oh wow.Swasthik: Yes, yes.Eddy: That's what tattooing can be.Swasthik: Yeah. Like how people can be kind. Yep, yeah. I think that'd be nice to see more of that in the industry, you know.Eddy: Definitely. Swasthik: Free to be, um, kind isn't it, it's free to, you know, good manners are free. If you don't have to, even if you're stressed, you don't have to, you can just close your door or just be like, guys. I'm just going to chill out today. You know, I've got a big tattoo. Eddy: It actually it takes so much less energy just to be nice. You know, I feel likeSwasthik: Oh yeah.Eddy: Customers who are, sorry, not customers, tattooers who are cranky with their clients or angry with the people they work with that takes so much energy out of you. And if you just take a moment to take a breath and smile orSwasthik: Meditate.Eddy: Not in the way that men tell women to smile, but smile in the way of like for yourself, you know? Swasthik: Oh yeah. Eddy: Being. Just kindness is so much easier. Swasthik: Yeah, definitely. I think you'd just find, I don't know. I feel like sometimes, yeah, I dunno, like you're right. It just takes two seconds hey, and it does like, if I don't, if I'm having a shit day or if I haven't meditated, and then I'm having a really, really rough day. And if it just, if I don't communicate it with my work colleagues or with my clients, I'll snap or I'll be abrupt and I feel so guilty about it. Um, so I think my general w like vibe is just to chill out. Just be kind, you know, it's, you know, it doesn't take too much and that's just being real innit. Eddy: Yeah.Swasthik: People want that. Eddy: Absolutely. And it's so nice to have space where you've got permission to do that, too, where you can go in and say, Hey guys, like I'm a bit fragile today. Um, so here are, these are my boundaries and I really appreciate you respecting them and let's have a wonderful day and it just it's, it makes everything go so much easier.Swasthik: So much. Yeah, it does. It does. Absolutely. I think like, as you were saying earlier on tattooing is stressful as it is, um, you know, you always sort of. I don't know, there's been so many times where I've been organized with my drawing, but then I've had to make a change, like, you know, five minutes before the client comes in and I'm all flustered again, you know? And so, yeah. It's so, um, it's just stressing, but.Eddy: It is.Swasthik: I reckon like, yeah, if you just talk and communicate, then all is good. Eddy: Yep, communicating with compassion, we can all be in a much better place. Swasthik: Yes. Yes. Eddy: I think um tattooing in general could use a lot more compassion and I feel like this, um, COVID situation has kind of made a lot of us approach each other with more compassion.Swasthik: Definitely. Eddy: I get a lot of really nice messages from other tattooers. And, you know, I do the same in return. I've had some tattooers send me like prints and art, but like just out of the blue, just cause they wanted to do something nice for another tattooer. And it's so lovely. Swasthik: Mmm I agree. I really, really agree. And I've done the same. I've sent some original, like some paintings that I've done um, to special people, um, and their partners. Um, and, um, I've also received lots of love and return, um, uh, lots of messages from people that are extremely busy that you wouldn't think would ever message you, but they have taken two seconds to message you. Um, it really makes, makes my day, you know, just, uh, I mean, I know that it's a vert, like I know it's like, A social media thing. And I do really look forward to meeting these people in real life and having a cuppa with them. Um, but it's nice to get that because it's, um, I think globally actually it's happened. I've been getting messages from friends that I haven't heard from in so long. So I think this whole COVID situation is really changing, um, that I guess that element of people having a bit more compassion for sure. It's just slowing the pace down, isn't it? Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: You know, people being able to have conversations, it's not a mad rush, which, which I really like man, like I've eased into just painting every day. Like I'm cruisy, you know? Um, if we go back to tattooing sweet, I miss it so so much. I miss my clients even more. Um, Because I love tattooing, but if we have to be, you know, in iso for a bit longer, no sweat, I'll just keep painting because I like painting, you know? Eddy: Yeah. It, it really, it's, it's really nice to be able to decide what to do with your time. And I just, I really it's overly optimistic, but I really hope that after this, we can come out and be like, fuck capitalism, let's burn it all down. Let's just have little communities let's barter and trade and like.Swasthik: That's what we were talking about, yeah. Eddy: Yup. Swasthik: That's what we were sayin. Yup. Exactly. Yeah. It's going to be a proper wake up call, I reckon Eddy ay because like, no, one's forgot. Well, I haven't forgotten about the fires as we were talking about. And then all of a sudden this has come through. Um, I think it's going to be a huge, huge wake up call. Um, and, um, yeah, like. Eddy: Yeah like if you're notice social activist yet, like now's the time to get on that train because we can, we can make some real changes.Swasthik: Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly right. Um, but yeah, it's just sort of slowed everything down for sure. I reckon. Eddy: Have you had a lot of time for like the, like the other things in your life that you like, you know, whether it be reading or music or? Swasthik: Yeah. I've, um, I've been reading a few books. Um, I'm always listening to music you see, like when I'm painting, I've always got music. I've always got some jams on. Um, I've been running a lot, um, just around the block, um, doing a bit more yoga. Having sweet sleep ins, which you never really get the chance to do when you're back at work. Eddy: It's been so good sleeping in. Swasthik: It is, it is. I've been going to bed at like eight, which is so weird. It's just. I think my body needs it. I think it's just like, you know, I think this time now is time for resting for me, um, or doing things that I love for, um, Yeah, not sort of hustling so much on drawing for clients, but doing whatever I want to do. So what about you? Have you had time to chill?Eddy: I have done nothing but chill, but it's good because I think, you know, the world is so like, Everything's so hyper-connected and instantaneous and high pressure. And it is that constant hustle and it's exhausting. Even if we don't realize like we're being exhausted, you know, you just kind of, it slowly builds up over time and then one day you wake up and you're like, I can barely breathe. I can barely move. I'm so burned out. And this came at such a good time for me. Like I I'd been probably for six months really struggling to hold myself together. Just like, I, I want to, I don't have the energy, for all these things I want to achieve. And like, I don't know how to keep going. And then everything stopped. And then I was just like, I'm gon, I'm going to sleep and I'm going to make pompoms and I'm going to hug the cats.Swasthik: Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Is everything okay though at your, you just needed some time to chill? Eddy: Yeah. I just needed some time to chill. Like for me, I have, um, I have chronic pain from spinal cord injury. So, you know, I, you know, my, my practice has just always been about finding a balance between the pain and the energy and my drive, you know, which aren't really all connected very well.Swasthik: Yes ok.Eddy: Yeah, I think these, these opportunities, and like you're saying, like using the time to like, kind of look at yourself and meditate on things and like, yeah, it's, it's important. And it's been crucial for me to get back. And I think when I come back to tattooing, I'm going to be so much better for it. Swasthik: Yeah. I think everyone's going to be. You know, I think that we often forget because tattooing is so high voltage, we often, sometimes, I'm sure most of us have been in a situation where we've put tattooing before ourselves. Eddy: Yup. Swasthik: And so it's nice that we're forced to, to actually step back from that and treat ourselves and look after ourselves and be kind to ourselves during this time.Eddy: Absolutely.Swasthik: Because you know, we don't want anyone to burn out. It's not good for your soul. It's not good for your spirit. Eddy: Yeah. And who set up this rule anyway, that we have to work, you know, five or six days a week, or, you know, 10 hours a day, like who decided that?Swasthik: Yep. Dunno. Eddy: We're pirates, tattooers you know, we're supposed to make the rules and we're supposed to go against the current of, of everything that's wrong with society. And we're supposed to be, you know, The healers, the ones with wisdom, the ones who communicate our ideas to other people and help people express themselves. And yet we've got, so we've almost lost who we areSwasthik: Who we areEddy: Like as a group. And like forgotten, yeah, I don't know. Swasthik: That's such a good point. And I think like that's why having travel is really good because it's when you can, you're free to do whatever. Do you know what I mean? Like when you're, when you're at work or when you're living and you've got a daily routine, you've got responsibilities, um, within tattooing, but also outside of tattooing, in your personal life, let's say, and then it's hard. It's it is hard because you've got to, you've got to like work. You know, you've got to pay the rent. Um, but then when you get to travel, you've got autonomy because like you can work where you want to work. What days you want to work. I often sort of, and I haven't done it yet, but I assumed and sort of fantasized that traveling with tattooing would be really quite fun because you can guest at the shops that you want to spend one to one time with certain people in terms of just knowing them, just, just watching them tattoo, having the ability to be in their presence, getting to know them, getting to know about their stories, um, and getting tattooed by them. So I often sort of think like that's when you're, when you sort of step away from your routine and your daily life, you've got that, you know, like you said, being a pirate again, just traveling and just doing that. So. Eddy: It's so good.Swasthik: Yeah.Eddy: It's been every time I've had the opportunity to do that. And I know it is certainly a privilege to be able to travel in the first place, but every time I've done it, it's I've come a better tattooer.Swasthik: Yep. Yep. Eddy: Do you think like once the borders opened back up and things are a bit safer to travel that you'll start planning things then? Swasthik: I think the first thing is going to organize to go back to India.Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: I really get grounded there. I do. Um, and I'm such a creature of habit you see, like, I think getting out for me, like even doing this interview, I get really kind of nervous and stuff, you know, but I've just got to do it because once you do it, you're all good. Hey, um, I will, I just think. I don't know if it's going to be this year. I hope it's next year. I've talked to a few people within Australia, um, that I wouldn't mind doing like a, like a guest spot in Melbourne or a guest spot guest spot in Sydney. Yeah. Um, there's some yeah, incredible people just even in Australia. Hey, we've got some awesome tattooers, man. Eddy: We have so much talent here.Swasthik: So much. And I really want to get tattooed by like a few people that I'm running out of space. So I've got to, I've got toEddy: Same Swasthik: I don't know what I'm gonna do ay Eddy: I've actually like getting stuff like lasered off because I'm like, I need more room. Swasthik: Yeah. See, I'm too scared. I think I just going to do the coverup route. I um want to redo my whole body, I think. Eddy: Wow. Swasthik: I think I'll stick to one person to do that, but yeah, it's just too. Yeah, I've got to sort that out, but no. Yeah. I don't know. I'd like to say, I think in India and Nepal would be priority one when the borders opened up. But after that no idea. Eddy: Do you get to tattoo with your family when you go back over there?Swasthik: I do tattoo in India. Nan is really old. She's actually not, well.Eddy: Oh I'm sorry. Swasthik: She had a fall. She's not with it. You know, it's interesting. They regress back to being children. Like when we saw her last um, I think just seeing mum, like step out of the otto made her cry, um, saying goodbye by the balcony. Cause she couldn't get up to get to the balcony, made her cry and cause she doesn't have any teeth anymore. And bless. She's so healthy though, because like her, her brother is 105. Eddy: Wow. Swasthik: Yeah. He's so cute. They're like sat, they go, they go for a walk, which is like 10 meters long. Eddy: Aww bless.Swasthik: It's so funny, it's so cute. Yeah, they're good friends. But anyway, um, so I tattoo there not with family, but I tattoo family yes. And often I'll just bring my own machines and I'll draw up a real quick flash that's kind of easy to do um, and just tattoo. Most, mostly people want religious symbols. Um, Om because they are full Brahman, so they're not eating meat. Um, they're practicing Hindu. No one really sort of gets, um, like a big sleeve or anything. Like I said, it's sort of ritualistic tattoos, small tattoos. Um, some of the women get Kolum. Um, just little ones though, you know? Uh, but there is this beautiful Ramayana community Elders. They have, um, the they're completely covered from head to toe. Um, and they have the script or the Sanskrit to Rama, um, tattooed horizontally. Eddy: Wow. Swasthik: Across their body from like forehead down to their pinky toe it's abso. It's sensational. Eddy: That's amazing.Swasthik: If you have a chance to ever look at it. Look like, I don't know, check out the photos online.Eddy: I will. Swasthik: They're very powerful. They're really beautiful. But, um, yeah, it's all it's. It's like no pressure. Fun times tattooing when I go back home hey. Eddy: Oh, wow. Do you ever learn about the like the healing kind of tattoos from your grandma, has she passed that down to you? Swasthik: She has. And it's something that I've I think oh, how's it going to sound? It's like, this is an example, like when I was young and I saw Nana do it for the first time when I was like a kid, I'd say Amma, Paati...like, what is she doing? And my mom would explain to me then what the reason was. And so, you know, remembering that, and then being taught by not only my grandma, but by many other Elders. Umm by a lot of the Gurus working in the temples in our family temples, because it'll happen outside the temple as well. Um, so yes, I do I have that knowledge and I have those stories. And often, um, very, um, really grateful cause it's like oral storytelling tradition. SoEddy: Yeah. Swasthik: It's, it always makes me quite emotional when I get, when someone shares a story like that with me, because, you know, you take, if they leave this world, you're never going to forget their words are you so. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: So yeah. Eddy: Wow. Swasthik: Yeah. Eddy: It's so, I love hearing people's um, history and visual languages and what, what they put of themselves into their tattooing and, and just seeing how it influences the tattooing and how it makes them different and what they can bring. Like, it's just, it's so special that it's such an individual thing. I love it. Swasthik: Yeah I reckon hey with everyone, everyone's like, Noone's the same. I don't think, do you know, like everyone say, like, if you do traditional and like this, you do a rose, but the way that you do a rose is going to be so different to the way that someone else does a rose.Eddy: Absolutely. Swasthik: From the drawing to the application, to the, to the follow through, to everything.Eddy: And even the intention. Swasthik: The intention, exactly. Exactly. Yup. Yup. Eddy: Absolutely. Um, in regards to the divine feminine, um, how do you think that can play a part in creating more balance and equality in tattooing? Swasthik: Um, so like, the divine feminine, I suppose, is we as humans. We have both the divine masculine and the divine feminine. And I think, um, You know, having female energy within tattooing umm is, is so imperative just because it just adds to having a bit more diversity.Eddy: Yeah absolutely. Swasthik: And by being open minded and having, you know, a lot more compassion, I'm not saying people aren't compassionate, you know, regardless of race gender, you know, regardless of all of that, you know, there's people that are compassionate and there's people that often might feel that being compassionate is a sign of weakness. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: And I feel like, you know, the tattoo shop that I apprenticed that was not a great tattoo shop for me to continue and grow. Um, it was all guys, um, and it had. I don't think they do got me. I don't think it was something that I think it was sort of cast away or having that sort of, that notion of divine feminine or having compassion was sort of seen as a weakness. Whereas I really think it's such a powerful theme because by having more feminine energy or celebrating it along with the divine masculine, I'm not trying to categorize here. It's just going to give us that potential to be diverse within the tattoo industry as a whole, and to be open-minded, um, both are necessary when wanting to grow artistically as well as within like the application of tattooing. Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And, and the divine, the divine feminine and the divine masculine is such a, uh, important part of your reli oh, your spirituality as well, right? Swasthik: Yes. Yeah. Yup. Yup. That's it. That's true. Yeah. I think like, cause I've grown up with it and it being embedded into my culture, into my cultural practice, into my religion and being a devout Hindu, um, it shapes my tattooing practice a lot because it's that equal level of respect. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: Whoever, regardless of their gender, race, religion, whatever backgrounds, like I said, you know, tattooing is non-discriminatory, it is, means different things for different people. Um, and as long as you're over the consent age, it's different in the East like it's different. I can only speak for what happens within tattooing in India. And, you know, you can get tattooed as young, as 10, if not younger in India, it's a completely different context and scenario, but at the end of the day, tattooing does not discriminate. So I, I would assume in the Western world, if you're over the consent age, um, You know, it's um, yeah. Having to divine feminine, divine masculine, this is just gonna you know, allow us to have more diversity and be open minded. Eddy: Absolutely. And I feel really sad for, um, a lot of people in Western culture where, you know, we're conditioned to believe that um, you know, showing emotions like compassion and empathy are a weakness. And, you know, so many people go through their lives, just being full of fear and anger and pain because they don't have an avenue to express it. And, you know, I see it happening so much in tattooing where there's like a lot of really toxic behaviors or, you know, a lot of like really angry people. Swasthik: Yeah. Eddy: If they just took a momentSwasthik: And misogyny, I've seen.Eddy: Oh my God. Yeah. It's such an issue. If they just took a momentSwasthik: It's really ugly. Eddy: To just be like a little bit kind to themselves to express their emotions in a healthy way, then they can be kinder to other people and understand that it's not like masculine versus feminine. Both are equal and important and necessary. Swasthik: I love that. I love that you said it like that. You said, yeah. I love that Eddy. And I think, I think, um, yeah man, there's no separation between gender race umm sexual preference. There is unity and there should be unity. And part of that unity is like, obviously there's the should be community, which you were talking about earlier.Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: And through all of that, you know, you're going to have. People should be free to not feel silenced. They should be able to not think that being empathetic or compassionate or creating trippy art, surreal art. Um, Whatever kind of art they want is not like, without it being a weakness, you know how we were talking about earlier, where it's like, you know, beautiful, surreal art is, is considered like, wow, that's so abstract. But then when it's within the tattooing context, it's very much like, well that doesn't make a good tattoo. Eddy: Yeah, that's crazy. Swasthik: Who's to say that Yeah. Yeah. Cause part of, I feel like part of meditating and practicing this craft or being, being an artist is like being able to, um, as you were saying, like to be able to have an outlet where you can release that emotion in a positive way. Um, part of that is like being able to release it through your expression of art, isn't it? Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: And by doing that and being in an environment that accepts that, where people accept, they don't have to love it. They don't even have to like it. But they can be respectful, you know, as long as they're not saying anything neggy, that's hurtful, constructive criticism is so different to taking a dig it'sEddy: Absolutely.Swasthik: You know, um. Eddy: Constructive criticism has a lot of value in what we do, but like, you know, you mentioned to me that, you know, sometimes you've worked in situations where people have laughed at you for being spiritual. And it's just like that, that is just such an insane thought to not respect another person's practice. Swasthik: Yeah. Yeah. And I think like, It's only made me stronger on a side note. It's only made me stronger. It's not stopped me from obviously continuing to do what I do. Cause I don't think I've ever stopped creating, like creating trippy shit or Hinduism based imagery, tattoos, spiritual stuff, things that mean a lot to me, things that I feel I'm well-educated about. Um, I'm not even going to try and attempt to do something that I don't know too, like anything about, because it's not going to come from a place of love and it's, it's sure as hell not gonna look that great, you know, but when I'm drawing something that I know, um, despite the adversity and, um, attacks on it, I'm still gonna continue, um, doing it because it's like, well, man, that's all I know. Cause I guess, I'm Indian, so I know about it, you know, so I'm going to paint it. And so, yeah, like I think at the end of the day, how does the divine feminine, um, influence or can influence the tattoo industry? I think, um, just by adding to diversity and by creating awareness, being open minded, celebrating um, having compassion or compassionate or having deep thinking, um, instead of it sort of being swept under the rug. Eddy: Yeah. Swasthik: Um, you know, like art is subjective, as we were saying, not everyone's gonna like it and not everyone's going to love it, but there's gonna be people out there that are gonna love it. Um, and I also think at the end of the day, it's create it for yourself, especially during this iso period, I've been just painting for myself, man. Seeing how far I can go with my drawings, experimenting with different mediums, you know? Am I proud of it? Yeah. It's all right it could be way better. You could do I could have done that better. I'll do it better next time. Eddy: Yeah. I mean we can always do everything better.Swasthik: Exactly. I think it's one of those things where, you know, what did they say? It's when you do 10,000 hours, you're master I'm like, nah, I think it's, I've immersed myself in a craft where I'm always going to be learning. I don't think I'll ever stop.Eddy: Nah. Swasthik: You know, even if I do it till the very end, I'll probably pick up the trick when I'm like 90. Um, yeah, but. Yeah, I love, I think that's it. Hey, would to answer that question. Eddy: Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Swasthik: No worries. Eddy: Well before we finish up today, is there anything else that you like would like to touch on or that you'd like to share with the listeners or, you know, that you'd like to communicate at all?Swasthik: Umm Well, I can't think of anything at the top of my head, but I just wanted to say that I had a really lovely time chatting with you. Eddy: Yeah. It's been so lovely. Swasthik: And having a chat before this chat too. It was just real nice. Eddy: Yeah. And today's the first time we've ever actually had a chance to chat. Like I've followed you for a while on social media, but, you know, and message and email. Swasthik: Did we ever meet? At the flash day though. Pretty sure I feel like we did at one of Mimsy's.Eddy: Because you did the Brisbane and I did the, um, I did the Sydney one, so it was literally just all on Instagram. Swasthik: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. See, I feel like it's just one of those things. When, you know, you have a good feeling with someone that's like what we, what we were saying earlier. Like when you, like, when you sort of idolize someone and then you're like, Mimsy right. And then you meet that person in real life and the way they hold themselves and their grace and their respect to you and their kindness to you just seems to, to just make you love them even more and it shocks you. And it's, and it's like, um chatting to you it's just sort of, yeah, you're real sweetheart. I had a really good time. Thanks. Eddy: Ditto.Swasthik: Thanks for it.Eddy: Ditto.Swasthik: And I can't wait to meet in real life. Eddy: I know same, I really need to come visit.Swasthik: Yeah likewise. We'll have to do a trade. Eddy: I would love that. I'm such a huge fan of your work. Swasthik: Likewise, lovely. Um, I've just, yeah, it's one of those things. I've once I get around to it, I'll message you and we can do a bit of a trade.Eddy: That would be perfect. Swasthik: It's like that juggling act of trying to find time to chill and then finish other commissions and create available flash. Eddy: Yep. Maybe one day when you've got your van and you're traveling around.Swasthik: Yes. I can come and take showers in your house and stay in the van.Eddy: Awesome. Well for our listen is, um, you'll be able to, um, find out more information about Swasthik um, through Instagram, if you head over to not just to girl underscore tattoo, we'll have all of the links and information. I'll put them in the show notes as well, and make sure you subscribe and follow and share and spread the love. Um, thank you so much to Swasthik for chatting to me today and sharing your story and, um, for letting our listeners hear your story as well. I think everyone really appreciates it and I really hope everyone has a beautiful day. Swasthik: Thanks love. Thank you so much. And yeah, I hope everyone has an awesome day. And thank you for listening to me rant on just random stuff. Yeah, I hope I made sense anyway.Eddy: It did.Swasthik: But thank you.

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