#WHAT DOES 'JOEVER' MEAN WHAT ARE YOU PEOPLE SAYING

[edgepunk]

if you think you have trouble understanding "young people slang" on the internet, imagine being a non-native english speaker and bashing your head against the wall bc you can't figure out what the internet's latest favorite word even means

[wavesoutbeingtossed]

The whole discourse about the privacy/secrecy/support thing has been sitting with me for a few days (I mean other than it always does to a certain degree) thanks to all the excellent discussion happening and I know I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said a million times before, but I think what we're seeing and what we're going to learn (e.g. from TTPD) is that it wasn't just the support issue, but how it was shown/handled.

We've all gone out of our way to show that introversion =/= lack of support. Someone can be shy, reserved, etc. and still show up for their partner, whether in public or at home. To chalk any of the differences up to the clash between introversion and extroversion is unfair to folks who count themselves among either tbh.

@thisisctrying said something the other day that hit the nail on the head about how if that support had been offered in private, there very well may not have been a Joever to begin with, or at least not at this point in time. (Sorry for loosely paraphrasing, and for namedropping you! Long time listener, first time poster.)

If this were a case where the "shy" partner said, "I am really uncomfortable with the spotlight personally and do not want to court it, but I will support you in your ambitions and offer you whatever you need to make them happen and make the glare bearable," I suspect that would have gone a long way to making Taylor feel seen and comfortable in pursuing her goals in the way that she now has. Again, that might have been more akin to the balance that seemed to have been struck around 2019 from what we can see, but even speaking in a general sense, there are lots of couples out there, celebrity or not, that have similar approaches where there are highly driven people and busy careers involved.

(A famous example being Dolly Parton's marriage. Tbh I know next to nothing about her and Carl, but she's always heralded as an example in this regard, because her husband is famously uncomfortable with the spotlight and hasn't accompanied her to public events in decades, but she's said that she never minded that because that was always work to her, and what was important was that he supported her in pursuing all her career goals and basically ensured she had a place to call home to return to at the end of the day.)

We're kind of in a brave new world with her current relationship because it felt like, at least at the start, we were maybe watching her figure out her boundaries in real time as to what she was comfortable with or not and adjust accordingly. Like so many have said, I fully believe the extreme privacy thing was initially driven by herself and her experiences in 2016, and she needed that quiet time to recover from all of the things and figure out how to exist in the world again.

Stating the obvious, it seemed like eventually privacy was equated with secrecy, turning the relationship and the celebrity into the elephant in the room and something to never be spoken of to the outside world. People are free to choose whatever works best for themselves and their relationships, and for some the separate public lives might work, but the “kept me like a secret but I kept you like an oath” theme is all over her work and it’s clear that it’s a sore spot for her, because she’s been made to feel shame just for the life she leads so many times in the past.

What I’m trying to say is that it’s pretty obvious something Not Great was happening behind the scenes, which didn’t just amount to “she wanted to be a public celebrity and he wanted to be a private hermit.” (Also, in case anyone forgot, this is a person who also chose a public-facing career who also has to engage in press for it, but I digress.) As her career reached new heights post-folklore, if she had the support at home to do all the things without judgment and with encouragement, and in turn offer the same support to her partner, she may have very well lived just fine with that, not unlike Dolly Parton’s case.

By reading between the lines in all the press since, as well as comments on tour and general ~vibes~ with TTPD teasers, it seems like one of the issues was that that was likely not the case. There was all the stuff that we saw — the reticence to acknowledge each other in the media (particularly on one side), the lack of public support even at events at which they were both in attendance for their respective jobs, the great lengths they went to not to be photographed together at events they attended yet no problem taking pictures with other friends and coworkers, the jobs that separated them, the withdrawing from the public even for work accomplishments, etc. Which could all be manageable if a couple chooses to do so together and are not inherently a sign of trouble in themselves.

But what we’re seeing now I think is a reflection of the things we weren’t seeing then, and it seems to indicate some very deep hurt. (I know, call me Captain Obvious.) And like so many have been saying, it feels likely that that part of that hurt is rooted in that very lack of private support where a person would expect it from their partner. Obviously as a Taylor fan blog I’m going to be more inclined to understand her side of a story, but tbh, it’s also because… this is sooooooo common, and something I’ve experienced in my friend group. (@taylortruther is right when she says most breakups are the same one way or another lol.)

One partner is resentful of the other’s success, or resentful that the other’s priorities begin to evolve as new experiences unlock new goals, or feels the other’s ambitions are not worthy of pursuit, and coupled with perhaps their own struggles in the same domain, it’s easy to see where that can chip away at the other partner’s morale and faith in the relationship. I know I’m just speculating here, but I also don’t think it’s totally unfounded. (Again, because a) I’m picking up what she’s putting down and b) it happens to sooooooo many women even among us dull normals.)

With all the pointed mentions about how much Taylor feels supported in her current relationship and how she in turn loves to offer the same show of support to not only her partner but other loved ones, how she’s stepped out more in the last year to a whole host of events, how she’s mentioned feeling like she locked herself away for years and she’s just proud of her partner and happy she can show up for him even if the chaos around it is unsettling, it paints a picture of what perhaps was happening before last year.

To feel like you’re all alone in carrying the weight of the relationship (or burden of it), of twisting yourself into knots to accommodate the other person’s boundaries (or insecurities) but not feeling reciprocity for your own has to be so painful. (The idea that it may have been even darker and to have a partner not only be unreceptive to your own needs but even perhaps resentful/dismissive/belittling of them is even more painful to think of. I guess we’ll find out when TTPD comes out if that was the case, too.)

At a certain point, that lack of acknowledgement will force your hand to be able to reclaim yourself. And it feels like the further removed Taylor in particular is from it, the more she moves from being sad about the life she felt she gave up by leaving, to angry at the life she felt she was giving up by staying. Especially being in a relationship now where it seems like everything comes much easier, where she can be open about the person she’s with and show up for them, all the stuff that seemed as challenging as climbing Mount Everest in her past is nothing more than a molehill at best in her current life.

TL;DR: I don’t think it’s privacy that inherently spells doom for a celebrity relationship like this; it’s the mutual support and respect that does. If Taylor had felt that in the later years of her previous relationship, I think we could be seeing a different, though not necessarily unfulfilled, person right now in 2024, who’d be happy on tour but whose personal life would look a little different. But it seems like by losing that support she lost parts of herself, and we’ve seen her reclaim that in spades in the last year, and perhaps to degrees she didn’t even realize she could from before all the Bad Stuff started happening in her young adulthood.

I know this was extremely long-winded and unnecessary, especially about total strangers we only know through scraps fed through the media, but I just always bristle at this idea that issues like these boil down to “personality differences,” as though one person wants to live in a city and the other on a remote island, or some shit like that. The whole support (and gender tbh) issue is one that’s just very close to my heart because again, I have seen it play out with so many of my friends in long term relationships and marriages and I just think people in relationships (and women in particular in some circles) deserve better than to feel like they’re being, well, tolerated.

[allamericansbitch]

Im asking your opinion because I myself don't know how to feel. Taylor keeps saying she doesn't want her work to be about her exes but then keeps throwing "winks" at fans like am I supposed to believe she didn't know "Blue Dress on A Boat" would make fans immediately associate that song with HS? Am I supposed to pretend she didn't mean for people to see that she liked that old tweet? Am I supposed to pretend the multiple synchronized unfollows were all a coincidence? Am I supposed to pretend she didn't know it would make headlines when she got on stage and said 'I love you, you know who you are' admist the Matty rumors?

Media outlets aren't doing research on every single thing taylor does, fans are. That's where the articles come from, news articles are basically just a bunch of tweets/tiktoks on a list format nowadays. So if she says she doesn't want this kind of attention why does she keep doing it?

It reminds me of the time she went to the Ellen show and roasted Joe Jonas for dumping her over the phone (she also edited a Myspace post about him to imply he cheated), he had to make multiple statements about it. I'm not in the business of defending Joe Jonas and Taylor was a teenager back then, it's just that sometimes it feels like not much has changed. Her last public breakup was with Calvin Harris and look how that went. He did literally tweet that she should just leave him alone if she's happy in a new relationship.

I just don't know what to think. It feels very juvenile. I'm too old to think it's cool to be subtweeting people for drama, making sure to be photographed with the girls and then they all go home to unfollow the ex. I think I need to take a break from her again. It felt like we were finally done with the "Joever" comments and there she goes again, in my eyes it just makes Joe Alwyn look better because he has said absolutely nothing about her.

.

ps: fans say she is a mastermind that does everything with intention but when we say 'hey maybe when she liked that tweet she should have known it would cause this' we're the crazy ones.

I’m in the exact same boat. She genuinely is just repeating history and the history is almost 10 years old at this point. She hasn’t really matured much and is feeding this parasocial beast she created. She very much knows her fanbase is immature and cares about this stuff and she takes advantage of it. And it sucks because it works every single time. No one recognizes the pattern of: break up, immediately start trashing them through ‘sources’ or directly in the media and start very public dating someone new and show them off like a trophy to make the ex look bad. All of it is exhausting and so immature and the fact that she’s a grown ass adult still behaving like she did when she was a teenager is crazy.

[6okuto]

Niaaaa //wailing, heaving, rolling around on the floor

I cannot stress enough how much I adore your works and love rereading all of them from time to time

Am here to ask if you have any more touchstarved hcs,, or thoughts,, im dying over here

Literally starved for content

gn!reader | REG!!! //waving both hands, jumping up and down giggling. Thank U. this is an honour and incredible compliment. scary bc my old works are...old... but Thank u. U mean the world 2 Me. i didn't thoroughly check what hcs i've already said so sorry there's repeats orz

i'm not saying the LIs would all go to the barbie movie but if someone does make art of that please let me know and tag me especially if it has the i am kenough shirt

they ruined my life saying kuras doesn't eat how is he going to join my girl dinners now. /j but i'll continue to believe he can appreciate how good a meal looks! & he can still sit with you and try to get his hands on your favourite meals for you to enjoy :-)

that thing where they do push-ups and kiss you when they come down with...leander was the first one i thought of tbh. but if you aren't able to lie underneath him he'd just ask for the same amount once he's done!

leander doing the thing he did in the prologue where he took his glove off with his teeth every so often just to see your reaction. like if you react in an amusing flustered staring at him kind of way. i couldn't relate personally (lying) (liar) (huge lie)

i'm sorry for my leander bias but if one of his favourite things is MASQUERADES and we don't see him at a MASQUERADE well it's so joever like him in a suit and mask and showing off how he knows how to fit in because of his past and also he can waltz now or something I'm dizzy i can't breathe

ais using 0.5 camera on people while they're caught off guard. him asking you to take a video of the fight For him because he's going to be part of it. vere selfie folder. mhin 5 followers no icon no posts gc lurker.

mhin would stick to enough of a routine that they'd have a specific spot to sit at different places,,, like a cafe or the library or bus... corner. it's one of the corners. and when someone's taken the spot they're thrown off then have to walk around for a new one (not happy about this) but take it back once they leave. you spend enough time together and they start keeping the spot next to them open for you

^ also they'd always order the exact same thing at restaurants. wouldn't like going to a new place because now they have to find a new default order. just like me fr

is no one going to talk about the idea that vere doesn't like snow because he's chained outside and it's cold . to be fair it could Totally be for a less sad reason like how it gets his Fur Wet (valid) but i've been thinking about that possible angst

also his gloves are just. like. ? odd. inverse drawing gloves. claws... but why only the 3 fingers.... btw his outfit means a constant thigh holding opportunity

kuras and mhin having long conversations about alchemy and sharing their findings with each other ;; mhin at some point getting just a Little excited about something and kuras choosing not to comment on it but being happy to see them let their walls down a little ;; o(-(

ais coming into your room and wordlessly lying next to you in bed and when asked if he needs something he says no? with a smile. he was just feeling lonely and wanted to find you

saying "you look like you can't swim" or "you are an odd individual" to any and all of them . something about it is amusing to me

if you celebrate christmas or like the idea of kissing underneath some mistletoe,, i think it's a good thought that you hold one over your head and wait for a kiss Or that Some of the LIs would Definitely do that themselves.

who do you guys think has the saddest birthday celebration (/no celebration at all.) who's relating to girls who spend their birthday alone and crying and be honest with me

rambling but i just want to say kuras's monster form looks sick as FUCK and i'm so excited for it. it looks like whatever left the scar on his hand seems to be there.. in his monster form...? i thought it was a claw but the positioning is under/through the hand so like??. do i have to bring up the significance of that if true

also is his outfit (minus his jacket)...like a jumpsuit... or can i just not tell because of his three (?) belts. that's not how you wear belts btw /lh. and is the sheer part Part of the top or is he wearing something sheer underneath the white. his sleeves are also sheer but the neckline means his shoulders are out . take off ur jacket

also mhin !! i want to know how big they get and if the transformation is sickening to watch and if they're still aware of everything around them and !!! THERE IS A SPINE(?) COMING OUT FROM THE BOTTOM OF THE SILHOUETTE THAT I NEED TO SEE NOW! & i'm assuming the senobium is Shit so even if we do get in there and get 'help' there would be another shitty price to pay. possible bad ending...??

scenes with all their monster forms where you're asked if you're scared and you say no / yes but you care about them and they falter because they didn't expect that

true good ending is everyone meeting at the wet wick and making a toast and laughing and saying this truly was our touchstarved before the credits roll

[lovewithoutresin]

Here’s my take, if you don’t mind my sharing it. It’s not that I’m looking to strip TGW of its original meaning. It’s that when it came out, I was like, “okay. Another song where Taylor is entirely at fault.” That’s not to say it’s a bad song, but that the theme is everywhere - Afterglow, peace, TGW, even Anti-Hero if you think about it all depicted Joe as this perfect figure who had to put up with Taylor’s many problems. It bothered me then and it bothers me now. That’s not to say TGW isn’t telling the truth, but that I wonder if there’s more to the story. A war takes two people. And I do think “maybe it was her” is probably the only time in her discography pre-YLM that she’s ever been like “maybe you did something too” about Joe. The rest of the song is about how he wanted her to trust him, how he was broken and blue, looking at her with honor and truth, and how she nearly lost him because of her poison.

Idk, maybe it’s just because I was never particularly interested in Joe so I found it to be missing some part of the story from the beginning. And we won’t know anything for sure until TTPD. But I don’t think questioning its larger narrative, narrated by someone very much unreliable due to her bias against herself and toward him, especially after Joever, is necessarily rewriting it or an attempt to ruin it.

No this is fair. And I do get how it would be a bit difficult to swallow that Joe was never really considered the villain in any of these songs. Obviously it takes two for a relationship to have friction and she obviously rewrote things in her head to blame herself a lot.

I think my thing is that like. A lot of Taylor's writing abt that relationship has been about her struggle with paranoia. And for a LOT of people (I don't know if you posted abt TGW or anything recently but if so I promise my post wasn't an indirect just ftr) it seems like Joever negates this character trait of hers in some way, because oh! She was right! Something was wrong!

And maybe that is the case, and we won't know more until TTPD, but like... as someone w BPD (here's where the personal bias kicks in), Taylor's openness about her paranoia and flight risk tendencies has been one of the things I've connected to the most over the years. So I guess it's a bit off putting to see some of the suggestions that this is suddenly not something that's genuinely a flaw of hers that she grapples with, and that it was just her lying to herself all along, because it's sort of like... first off painting paranoia/jealousy issues that she portrayed herself as working on getting over as something to demonize, ig? That's a specific tone I've only seen in a couple of posts/other people's asks though, not a broad thing. But then it also feels like it negates the idea that she may have been honest about dealing with this in herself, and it feels like people are just too eager to jump on that train.

I do like what Jaime said sometime in the last 24 hours abt it being something she genuinely dealt with that was then weaponized against her, though. And I think it's possible a more nuanced take is in order where she does deal with this, but it was made to feel like this horrible aspect of her instead of a problem they could face together, or he used it against her to paint her as overreacting when she DID see problems for what they were, or... any number of things, honestly. We can't know for sure yet! I'm just not so quick to jump on the train that she's never been afraid and wrong before, which is the tone I do see a lot of.

[nikatyler]

Zeph 1.0

in other news we continue clowning for Astarion and letting him drink from us

(x)

Right so I don't know what or who to believe anymore in this goddamn game

I say goddamn but I still love it don't get me wrong

(x)

mum come pick me up i'm scared

now tell me why tf did i rush here with no spell slots left

yeah we're fucked, reload 💀

(x)

i may be a monster

(x)

I'm starting to get a headache but I wanna keep playing 🥴

Hyperfocus this, hyperfocus that, what about "I'm fully aware I should be doing something else or else I will suffer greatly but I can't stop and it's worth the pain" kinda focus

(x)

*You notice the blood's source* *Astarion approves* okay thanks??? 😂

(x)

"Can you imagine dressing entirely in red?" I'm not saving your ass when I create Ross for my next playthrough smh

(x)

I felt really really really bad about this and thought I was making a big mistake (I probably was 💀) but seeing only 7 % of players unlocked this? Yeah that's cool. Or maybe not. Idk I feel bad 💀

(x)

Trying to take down the bitch evil vampire again

Am I struggling? Mayhaps

We are Fucked™ lmao (that's a lmao of big pain not lmao of this is hilarious)

Alright let's try again

How do y'all not get attached and just play and stay cool because it's just a game. I'm 👌 this close to ugly rage crying lol stop being mean to my boy leave him alone stay away from him get a job

Not now duo dammit

...fuck

Yeah no I'm reloading and I'm just gonna fuck around the city a bit, I can't do this rn 💀

Okay so the strategy of 1) just go there 2) try not to die is not working too well in the big fights in act 3 for me 💀 oh well I'll try harder I guess

(x)

they need a pair of glasses smh

(x)

So I'm seriously considering throwing 2 weeks of gameplay in the trash just to get a better shot at a romance but…now I'm thinking about some tedious parts and ehhh 🫠

Is he worth it? He is worth it. Right?

Lmao I don't remember the last time a fictional character had a grasp on me like that. It's rather embarrassing really 💀 I'm too old to act like this aren't I 💀

(x)

Actually considering how bad today has been, reloading that far will probably Fix Me™ so I'm doing that right after a little afterwork nap

And if it turns out to be pointless or a bad idea I can always just switch back to the furthest point in the storyline I got, I won't overwrite that save

(x)

Sacrificing about 42 hours of gameplay 🫡 it's been an honor but I need the vampire's love more than oxygen. Reloading now 🫡

And I'm making sure to actually finish some quests I didn't the first time *cough* the shadow curse *cough*

(x)

I put him in Karlach's clothes...for science

(x)

HELP I'VE BEEN LAUGHING AT THIS FOR FIVE MINUTES NOW

(x)

I need to pickpocket people more. In the game I mean. Every time I succeed, I get a good giggle out of it 🤭

(x)

organ rearranger you say...can i...can i say something...

Okay we're all adults here right I can say it. Minors look away this isn't a safe space for you

Well let's just say I stole this for someone and he can rearrange my organs anytime okay byeeeeeeee

Well technically he stole it himself I just giggled with my finger ready on f8 in case things go badly 🤭

(x)

Okay so I just found that one reason why some things weren't going well for me was simply because I don't long rest enough in the game 💀

(x)

Me when I first started playing bg3: I hope there's a way to avoid a lot of combat, I hope I'll be able to just talk my way through Me now: woooo slaughter!! 😗

(x)

Nooo I was like "wooo yeah cutscene finally!!! is it happening?? are we so back???? we're so back amirite" and it's this guy 😭😭 (with all due respect i was hoping for something else 💀)

(x)

and it's only gonna get worse

let's goooooo

(x)

Does this game hate me or what

It's so joever it's so joever I'm just not getting any cutscenes in the camp lmao

My negative rizz is so strong not even videogame characters want me

(x)

You know what? I get her

(x)

WAIT HOLD WE ARE SO BACK

I USED TO PRAY FOR TIMES LIKE THIS *incoherent screaming*

I truly am the embodiment of this meme

I'm not even trying to scream anymore my voice is dead

I can't believe this actually happened so now I'm pretty much spamming the kiss, ignoring everything else

"I play for the plot" she said 🤭

(x)

my game crashed, good thing I save every five seconds otherwise I'd think about jumping off of very tall somethings

okay i actually lost like zero progress, jfc blessed day

(x)

Zeph you're standing way too close lol

(x)

"I'm gonna speedrun the parts I've been through about a week ago," she said, failing to realize she's not a good runner

There's no such thing as speedrunning this game lol. I just want to do everything always. Fight everything and open every crate and loot everyone 🤭

(x)

back to act 3 we go now that i've righted my wrongs 😌😌

(x)

wise words from daddy, wise words indeed

(x)

buddy you have one job

(x)

...okay?

(x)

"watch out for anyone acting STRANGELY" said by the guy who tries to suck your blood on like the first night of camping together but ok love whatever you say 💀

(x)

[midnightsslut]

We will never really know what exactly went down between them but this comment: “makes me wonder if he used to do it but stopped at some point.” Is something I think holds true. I mean when they first broke up the response was I believe like differences in personality and like they out grew each other. Somewhere along the line I get the feeling that joe just didn’t have that same energy about Taylor that he once did. And I don’t mean love when I say energy. I just feel like literally his energy about fighting and making up just disappeared cause it was like too chaotic. Like joe just really seemed to like the quiet and easy life. And I genuinely think Taylor enjoyed that for a while and needed it. But like we see this in her albums and genre shifts where she is constantly changing. And I bet same-old-same-old or feeling of stagnation bothers her. And it almost seems like Joe just eventually got annoyed with her lack of contentment and just blamed her for it. Possibly making Taylor question herself and her past. And personally that’s why anti hero is kind of sad song for me. Cause it sounds very much like a person who is constantly having their their worst faults thrown at them. (From the public and by people in her personal life) But ultimately there is nothing wrong with Taylor for not enjoying the life that Joe wanted.

So i am really curious to hear this album. Like really curious. Cause it’s does feel like it’s everything she has been holding back. I don’t think it will be super bashy. But definitely explore the theme of “I love you but you don’t fit with me anymore.” Gives me the vibe of “if I can’t relate to you anymore then who am I related to?”

i say this a lot about joever, but i have to say it again: yes, but it’s also complicated djsjs.

ACHTUNG: THESE ARE MY THOUGHTS. EVERY SINGLE SENTENCE HAS AN IMPLICIT ‘IMO.’ I WILL NOT WRITE ONE OUT EACH TIME BECAUSE I DON’T LIKE TO BE REPETITIVE. THANK YOU.

like, yes. he definitely wanted a quieter life that ultimately did not align with her ambitions. her explanation for the lakes comes to mind (‘having someone to escape with/something you want to protect, […] and saying “I may not be able to go to the lakes right now or to go anywhere, but I’m going there in my head, and this escape plan is working. […] you just kept making art, but you didn’t subscribe to the things that were killing you’). she was deeply traumatized by fame (she has explicitly used this word before anyone clutches their pearls) when they met, and she thought that level of exposure for her work was nearing its expiration date anyway. the pandemic was kind of like 2017 2.0, except it was not a personal decision anymore. i do think that seeing her work get new levels of recognition while she was healing and no longer locked away by choice made her long for bigger things again. yes, it ended up hurting her, but she ultimately chose fame and decided she no longer regretted it.

relationships also aren’t supposed to be about two people immediately breaking up when they no longer want the same things. that’s where we see taylor closing herself off to make it work while he didn’t seem to reciprocate. once again, she was the one who had to make sacrifices and go through the logistical nightmare of hiding all the time. she is the one Doing Something, but her agency and desires are not taken into consideration. was that really something she chose to do, or did she feel that it was chosen for her because their relationship was the priority by default? idk. i could see her feeling out of control there for a while, which ties into a lot of things we’ve seen from her in the last two years.

[bisluthq]

Ttpd intrigues me so much because no matter what the swifties tell you, she 100% marketed the album on Joever. Maybe she was really that pissed off at the "pearl-clutching-sarahs-and-hannahs" in her own words, that she wanted everyone to experience that collective whiplash the moment we realised where this was going.

And it was a gamble, alright? I'd say she hasn't even recovered all her losses yet. For someone who has *people pleaser* tattooed on their forehead, you'd think she would focus more on what's more palatable and agreeable for her fanbase and general audiences. You'd think she'd try to milk the death of her SIX YEAR LONG relationship that everyone was obsessed with decoding. You'd think she would ride that wave for a while but No.

There's currently a pretty brutal hate train launched on her on Twitter for many reasons.. but my prediction is that it all got aggravated by the release of TTPD which gave people an opportunity to dunk on her. And honestly, it's kind of called for.

Like how did she not see the LITANY of ways in which writing a satirical and sordid album about Gen-Z's villain of the year could end badly? Especially when she's known for being a great businesswoman and should've capitalized on the Joever hype if nothing else?

She had an open door to reclaim the narrative, to make a mature an introspective record about the inevitable sinking of a ship that was structurally flawed and how these kinds of things aren't always black and white yada yada, gotten her critical acclaim and gotten out.

I would say TTPD is not a bad album, but it is from a business standpoint, a terrible move. She wanted to be honest and messy I get it, but some of the things she confesses on that album you couldn't waterboard out of me.

Red is a honest and messy album too, but she makes it so perfectly raw and pitiful that it just works. Ttpd is something that would've worked during Reputation era, not now. She needed another 1989 now, and she chose to fumble that bag.

Some anti Travlors are speculating the whole album was some secret coded message to Matty and while I don't agree, I will say that the album is very lore-intensive and kind of manic in an unsavory way. Why on earth is she defending that dude even if in an ironic way? At her age and state of fame, you SHOULD know better than to lay all of that out for the public to dissect.

Also, is she really going to let Joe get away with *checks notes* like three songs if you squint hard enough? She wrote five whole albums about this guy mind you. She loves giving the people what they want, so what happened?

She released YLM knowing that everyone would think that's how TTPD would sound like. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY foresaw the truth. She's insane truly but that doesn't always give her the greatest results sorry to say

I disagree with the idea that TTPD was bad business wise - she’d not have been able to keep blocking other artists from #1 on the Billboard 200 with rando ass variants if this had been a commercial failure. I think people getting mad on Twitter doesn’t really translate to business.

I also - and I mean this nicely - am not sure she could do a good Joever album. YLM is sad but it puts the blame on him and that’s kinda what she always does with her breakup songs (or in that case just a sad song). To write a really introspective thing, she would’ve needed to leave him not for Matty and also seriously and thoughtfully acknowledge her own faults and her own fuckups and that’d not be a Taylor album then. That’s not how she processes stuff. And I’m not sure that album - basically 30 (Taylor’s Version) would’ve done great commercially at all. Not even so much because of young fans but because of Karens who want to have villains to her fairytale princess.

[wavesoutbeingtossed]

I don’t think JA is evil or anything but it is odd to me that even ignoring the cheating lines in the peripheral of the album, everyone’s reaction to “he didn’t want to marry her and kept her in quiet stasis for years” is “ oh he’s not bad”.

Not even from a talking about celebrities perspective. The numerous references to wanting children and lost youth on the album just hits so badly in your 30s. And it’s odd to me that wasting someone’s time to that extent while resenting their success is looked at as being a good guy. It just seems like trivializing an issue women have

Anon, I don’t mean this directed at you specifically, just a blanket reminder for myself that I don’t really care to discuss these men generally because I don’t think they’re worth the time or space and frankly, I don’t know enough about them or care to to devote space to them on my little fan blog.

That being said, I think the reason my take on it is more… subdued is because, well, unfortunately I think the situation inferred from Taylor’s music is so, so common. I have several friends (two in particular I can think of) who went through situations so eerily similar to the one Taylor and Joe presumably went through. Which is not so much to say that I’m being parasocial, but more that all breakups are the same to quote @taylortruther. It’s not to condone the men’s behaviour, but more to say that even amongst “dull normals,” most of us have firsthand or at least secondhand experience in it and have had to navigate the same conflicts.

I have no opinion on whether Joe is good or bad because I don’t know anything about him beyond Taylor’s music and I have zero interest to learn anything further. I have my own guesses as to what went down, which are probably similar to what most people around here are assuming, and it’s again so painfully pedestrian, especially for people in their 30s. Which is obviously so painful as a woman of childbearing age who is hoping to have those things.

I do agree that there is a lot of trivializing of these issues for women in general, and especially for Taylor in general in TTPD. Not to be all “I/we understand Taylor better” about it all, but there’s soooooooo much in TTPD that I think *a lot* of people are not picking up, which is why i say over and over again that it really is the thirtysomething album. (Which is not to be ageist lol, it’s more a state of mind.) Like, while I am not someone who foresees having children or even getting married myself, most of my close friends are and have, and so much of what Taylor sings about literally and subtextually is so painfully obvious to me and palpable that I’ve been shocked at how it’s been glossed over. (Maybe you don’t fully understand it until you’re sitting on your friend’s bathroom floor consoling her as her entire life crumbles before her eyes? Or is that just me?) But, many of us here on tumblr dot com have picked up what she’s put down.

I think it comes down to: even with “good” guys (and particularly with those who aren’t), the whole family thing does *not* mean the same thing to them, because the time constraints just don’t apply to them. You’d hope your partner would feel why it was pressing to you, but unfortunately I can think of a lot of people even in my own life who’ve experienced this same conflict with their partners. Because men can drag their feet until they think it’s the “right” time in a way women simply can’t. I had a friend who had a very Joever-like breakup over that very issue and it’s so, so painful and can also drive them to make questionable choices in the immediate aftermath.

Then when you add the whole resentment/whatever issue on top of it… it’s… a lot.