#alecto the ninth speculation

[trambrosia]

This unbelievable yet inescapable deductive leap is getting lost in the replies, so I'm staking my claim in a new post:

In Alecto the Ninth, Noodle the Dog will trick humans into gaining knowledge forbidden by John Gaius

Why??? Because snakes are danger noodles, Noodle belongs to a Blood of Eden science teacher, the chapter header where we meet Noodle is the tree of knowledge in the Garden of Eden, and he has extra "arboreal" legs.

Snake, Knowledge, Eden, Tree.

The Serpent is Noodle

[vengeful-horde-of-angry-ghosts]

You done fucked up, John. You taught Alecto how to die and Nona made her own peace with dying. It was the only thing she was ever afraid of.

[jods-duplicitous-sluts]

Alecto the Ninth News

Part One

Alright friends. We are all chomping at the bit for any Alecto news at all. So here is what I've compiled from interviews, podcasts and AMAs. Sources are linked and screenshots have alt. text.

I've also included a little commentary or speculation on some points but ultimately that's not the focus of this collection.

Under the cut because I feel like it's going to get long.

So many screenshots, it turns out I'll have to split it into 3 posts.

If you enjoy this post please reblog so more people can see it!

Jump to part ■ Two of the post

Jump to part ■ Three of the post

I'm making this post on mobile, so forgive any wonkiness. Also tumblr ate this post once already *screams into the void*

• The book starts with Harrow in Hell. A reference to the Harrowing of Hell. Based on the presence of a porn mag I'd guess it's her own little river bubble inside Alecto but still just speculation.

Source: Tamsyn reads to us! Video with written description

• There is a wedding of some sort. Possibly other excuses to dress up the characters in formal ware. Some people have expressed concern that this was referencing the N- and C- wedding in Nona, but nope. We have confirmation that it is in book 4.

Source: Twitter

The next series of screenshots are all from the same tor.com interview: TM on Lyctorhood and Genderfuckery.

• This first one again confirms allusions to the harrowing of hell/ the decent of Christ. For those out of the loop the tldr:

The harrowing of hell is an Old English and Middle English term referring to the period of time between the Crucifixion of Jesus and his resurrection. In triumphant descent, Christ brought salvation to the souls held captive there since the beginning of the world.

A lot of speculation has gone on around about Harrow and her role in freeing the souls trapped in the river/reviving the river from whatever is poisoning it. [ *cough*JOD*cough*].

Also another reference towards formal outfits for the cast. So at least the wedding if not multiple formal functions.

• The question of Harrow and Gideon's souls will continue into Alecto. Looking forward to info on how enmeshed they've become and/or if they can be separated.

• I mean this quote is infamous by now. Which of our faves is it in reference to? All of them?

•I feel like we haven't seen enough about the differences between rebirth [a la Paul and Nona] vs Resurrection [Gideon/Harrow?! Someone else?] So while not a direct promise of anything in Alecto, I feel like the implication is there.

•The next two screenshots are about the Alecto cover, which is complete[the first from the above interview:]

•and the second is from an AMA from Aug. 5 2020

• The cover is definitely done since she was talking about it in 2020 and reaffirmed right before Nona’s release. I feel like they are waiting until they have a better idea of a publishing date before release. Maybe we'll get news in Q4 after the Nona paperback release and excitement dies down?

• From the same 2020 AMA. As this is pre-Nona, it could be possible that the heist mentioned deals with Gideon's body [either the Houses heisting it from BOE which happened off screen or the heist of Gideon's body from the barracks]. But I included it just in case that isn't what is being referenced.

• Same 2020 AMA: Again this could be covered in Nona as being what the John chapters were about, but also maybe not.

Source: TazMuir tumblr post from April 2020

• Another infamous quote at this point. Definitely feels like this is about the 'Third Most Toxic Polycule' of Harrow/Gideon/Ianthe and maybe Alecto is in this loop as well. With all the references to weddings and relationships I'm wondering who out of these four is marrying who...[maybe it's someone totally different, but my money is on someone in this situation]

Click to see part two!

[griseldagimpel]

John Gaius Isn't the Ultimate Antagonist of The Locked Tomb Series

Alright. So this may be my 'Korra/Mako shippers are gonna be popping the biggest bottle of champagne tomorrow' post, but you can't be annoyingly smug about being Right later on if you don't put yourself out there. (If I'm wrong, I'm hacking tumblr to nuke this post from existence.)

Here's my Hot Take: John Gaius isn't the ultimate antagonist of The Locked Tomb Series, and the final book won't be about dismantling the Empire of the Nine Houses.

I'm working off the following premises for this:

While the conflicts of all the books can be described as One or More Characters Is Angry Because John Did Something Shitty, John hasn't ever been the antagonist of a book. That is, he hasn't been the character the protagonist is working against.

In fact, John is a protagonist character himself, being the deuteragonist of Nona the Ninth.

John is established as wanting to talk things out and not being the first to use violence in any given conflict. That situates him badly to become an antagonist because it'll require the protagonists to do violence first, which'll make them seem less sympathetic to the reader. (Yes, even in a series with necromancy and cannibalism, audience sympathy is still something an author will be deliberate about.)

Speaking of sympathy, while much of the fan base has zero sympathy for John, the books have a lot of sympathy for him, actually.

Alecto the Ninth will not only be the last book, but it was originally intended to be the second half of the last book. As such, I expect it to spend more time on resolution and reveals than on establishing new things.

The Locked Tomb series has been skimpy with its socio-political world-building. The first two books took protagonists who'd basically grown up in a monastery and shoved them in isolated locations with the rest of the cast. The third book shook that trend...but has a protagonist with the socio-political understanding of a golden retriever.

The Locked Tomb series has never had as a setting a colony of the Empire of Nine Houses that's actively under control of the Empire. While this is something that's happening within the series, it's happening in off-pages-ville.

In fact, the series has largely used the Space Imperialism setting as a backdrop for the interpersonal character drama.

The author has given the theme of the series as The Horrors of Love.

The books have a pattern of Resolution Through Reconciliation. It may play out in the negative - the climax of Harrow the Ninth, for example - but that's what's been at the core. There are exceptions - the fight with Cytherea in Gideon the Ninth and against the Sleeper in Harrow the Ninth - but think about Gideon & Harrow's relationship in Gideon the Ninth or Nona & Varun's interaction at the climax of Nona the Ninth. The Locked Tomb series has had as much if not more focus on "how do these characters talk things out" as "how do these characters defeat this really powerful villain".

Alright. For the Empire of the Nine Houses, there a might be a hand wave "and Paul led peace talks" at the end or something, but there won't be a focus on dismantling the Empire because there hasn't been enough time spent establishing the broader Empire as a setting. For that matter, there's not a protagonist character with "dismantle the Empire" as a driving motivation. (Remember: Alecto helped establish the Empire of the Nine Houses.)

Regardless of what happens to John, I don't think the book is going to tackle, "John dies and now the entirety of the Nine Houses needs to be evacuated" because a.) that's such a big thing that it would really have to be The Entire Fucking Plot and b.) evacuating refugees would require them to be a evacuated to somewhere, and the series doesn't have an established enough socio-political setting to do that.

I think the main antagonistic force is going to be the Devils. That, too, may be solved though reconciliation (particularly if certain fan theories about them are correct) but they were set up enough without having enough time to shine as antagonists. So Alecto the NInth will put a lot of focus on them.

I DO think that trying to fix the River will be part of the plot. That's something that's been established enough that I'd expect resolution.

I expect the series to continue to be about the drama between characters. Off the top of my head - and apologies if I forgot anyone's blorbo here - I expect that to be Kiriona & Harrow, John & Alecto, Ianthe & Crown Him With Many Crowns, John & the BoE members now on the Ninth House, and John & the Resurrection Beasts, plus (less contentiously) Alecto relationships with Pyrrha & Paul and Coronabeth's relationship with Judith.

Those all may or may not have a happy resolution, but I think they all need a resolution.

In conclusion, I don't know what will happen to John, but the more that I think about it, the more I lean towards believing that "What Will Happen to John?" is the wrong question. The last book won't be about "What Will Happen to John?" He'll get an ending - they all will - but I don't believe that the book will approach John as a Problem That Needs to be Solved. If he does try to do something shitty - and I'm fully on board with the theories that he wants to Reset the Universe - it'll be about John overcoming (or not!) his depression as one of our core characters, NOT as John being a threat that the other characters need to defeat.

And if I'm right, I'll be popping the biggest bottle of champagne.

[speckledfiction]

This might be a huge reach, but having read the unwanted guest I find myself wondering if the whole perfect lyctorhood process is building up to be an ee cummings reference, specifically to I carry your heart with me (I carry it in my heart)

Thoughts under the read more

This is mostly just me noodling on the facts that there's a perfect lyctorhood where the two selves mingle and intersect but neither is obliterated, and on the idea in tug that it's impossible to consume a soul without being influenced by it.

Is there a version of the Gideon/harrow fusion where Gideon eats harrow's heart and they both literally and spiritually carry each other's hearts?

If that is what the series end up going for, does that mean that we can infer anything interesting about the series trajectory from the third verse of that poem?

The full text is:

i carry your heart with me(i carry it in

my heart)i am never without it(anywhere

i go you go,my dear;and whatever is done

by only me is your doing,my darling)

                                                      i fear

no fate(for you are my fate,my sweet)i want

no world(for beautiful you are my world,my true)

and it’s you are whatever a moon has always meant

and whatever a sun will always sing is you

here is the deepest secret nobody knows

(here is the root of the root and the bud of the bud

and the sky of the sky of a tree called life;which grows

higher than soul can hope or mind can hide)

and this is the wonder that's keeping the stars apart

i carry your heart(i carry it in my heart)

There are so many lines that feel like they echo lyctor stuff tbh I'm a bit insane about it.

I fear no fate (for you are my fate, my sweet) is basically just one flesh one end in more words!!

Anyway if (big if) this ends up being relevant, what do we think about the tree called life? I feel like it would be cool if it does end up being relevant, but I'm not sure I can see how

[proustianrevelry]

so if Ianthe and Kiriona are the two Tower Princes, at what point does John go Richard III on them?

[we-the-human]

Yeah Gideon is being really mean and jaded in Nona but also like, look at her life’s purpose;

She spent her whole ass life trying to get out of the ninth, join the cohort, earn her stripes by risking her life on the front lines, send prize resources back to the ninth to shove in harrow’s face / feed the need for harrow to depend on her, make her way up in the ranks to prove herself (to herself and harrow), and live the good life with a title and money and maybe even some power. All that good stuff.

Then within a very short span of time she is basically HANDED the title of mega cohort lieutenant, HANDED indestructible-ness, HANDED the title of first prince, heir to god-whatever just because she was born into it kinda suddenly. Everything she wanted was just suddenly handed to her and now she doesn’t know what to do with it. It’s boring. She’s likely cut down BOE soldiers like a bad bitch just like she wanted except there’s no fear of losing because she’s been made impenetrable, and she likely never had to rise up in the ranks. What the fuck else left is there to do? She finished her life goals in like, six months.

It would be so easy to feel empty. Especially if you pile on top of that Harrow being out of the picture. Even if it’s totally co-dependant and unhealthy, Harrow’s existence was a key factor in Gideon’s realized dreams being a source of happiness for her (because now there’s no one to prove herself to and for harrow to need and be dependent on her in the way Gideon only wanted to be needed by Harrow).

And yet, despite all of Gideon’s shitty actions in Nona, I have a feeling she still has her own agenda. And that agenda might include her potential surfacing self awareness about her life, and Harrow not being in it. (And hopefully some of John’s shittastic behaviour.)

We have the whole aspect of Gideon now being a revenant. We know John could have just resurrected her, but he didn’t? Why? Well, first off, I doubt John wants anyone, even his own daughter, to potentially be someone who could ever take him out. Much easier that she’s dead and easy to manage. That Gideon knew that he enlisted G1deon to either kill or fix harrow is still also in the picture, and potentially another reason to keep gideon under his thumb, but also keep her happy. (Unless John fucked with her memory.)

Gideon says she just “tagged along” without ianthe knowing. Because it was less boring than what she was doing. I think she might be lying. I feel like to keep gideon in line, John wrote off harrow. She’s gone. Best move on. I don’t think gideon has. Unless I’m forgetting something, no one could figure out why Varun was where he was if there were no Lyctors present. Maybe Gideon had the hope that there was a Lyctor present; Harrow. So, she ‘tags along’.

So, it would be easy to see both her willingness to open her eyes when she sensed harrow, looked like she wanted to be kissed by her, and then promptly got extremely pissed when she realized it wasn’t her.

Ianthe seemed to be on the right track when she questioned gideon about her secondary motives being about Harrow with regards to opening the tomb. And when we hear Gideon tell Alecto to get in line, it becomes more obvious.

Gideons actions mayyyyybe also due to her missing her heart, and part of her soul. But I’m not sure. More on that though; Pyrrha says harrow had a piece of gideon John wouldn’t be able to take back. We know perfect lyctorhood involves the sharing of souls. We know John and Alecto have pieces of each other in them and now with harrow and Alecto’s body swap plus the Vow (whatever it may be) there could potentially be a MEGA clusterfuck between the souls of john, Alecto, harrow, and Gideon. And if harrow and Gideon ever pull off a full lyctorhood process, with separate bodies, I feel like the souls of john and Alecto may be integrated into that - potentially leaving them dead, without bodies, fully integrated into our fucked up lil’ nunlets. I feel we might see Alecto sacrifice herself.

Anyway, I have faith in gideon. But also on the side, I totally hope she had some shameful ‘we miss harrow’ / hate sex with ianthe during her six months of existential crises.

And you know what she deserves to let go and be trash for a while.

[dabblingreturns]

Okay, I was doing my normal morning rituals and a new thought came to me in a vision.

Of in alecto the ninth, Gideon cradling the near or totally passed out body of harrow. And Pyrrha offers to take her...because Pyrrha held that body before when she was a different child.

And Gideon just glares at her.

And pyrrha looks at Paul and maybe crown and asked..."was cytherea sort of weird about gideon back at cannan house?"

And Paul or maybe crown says "yeah...but now think it was the eyes"

And Pyrrha goes...."no, I think it was more....that glare she just gave me was 100% loveday.....God that miss that bitch...she was even more over protective than cassie....Cassie.....

And Paul or maybe Crown nods and says...."okay....that makes more sense....there always was somthing odd about it from cytherea....but we didn't know to look...

And in the background Kiriona gaia yells...."stop talking about me like I'm not here!"

[nofearnopanic]

So hear me out...

[gideonisms]

I also think that the body being Alecto + being the same body from Harrow's youth lends itself to some fun setups that make me personally insane, as follows:

• Harrow's first gay crush literally has the power to end the world as she knows it (as your first gay crush always does)

•Harrow in love with a girl (wants to release her at any cost) vs John in love with a girl (wants to lock her away for fear she will destroy him) + how this ties into the series' exploration of love as the act of holding on to something no matter what + how this ties into its thesis on necromancy (destructive force entirely based on trapping the energy of a soul where you want it)

• Harrow's first love, a girl able to destroy god, vs Harrow's second love (?), a girl descended from god but at odds with him. Complete destruction vs a path forward? On a personal level, Harrow's self destructive tendencies (putting off her death until a set of conditions is met ie the girl wakes up) vs her desire to live (because her life is tied to someone else's)? I am simplifying quite a bit here and I suspect I will have to read the next 2 books to get more of an idea what Muir is saying

• If Anastasia was with Alecto in her final moments awake this lends itself to A) anastasia/alecto (harrow's ancestor keeping the ninth alive as a tribute to the woman she loved and a subtle fuck you to God himself) and B) harrow looks like Anastasia, so it makes sense that Alecto would find her presence comforting and be kind to her throughout her life

• Alecto's spirit following harrow out of the tomb. Alecto's body still in the tomb. Harrow's spirit taking the place of Alecto's spirit after her journey through the river (harrow in Alecto body). Alecto's spirit taking the place of Gideon's spirit in harrow's body when Gideon "dies" at the end of htn. Gideon's spirit back in original gideon body WHICH is with boe MEANING the final Gideon scene in htn is a timeskip to when harrow comes to rescue her in Alecto the ninth wearing alecto's body (a stretch? yes. Wishful thinking? absolutely)

• monster girl monster girl monster girl

• I think girls who are actually destroyed planets can be so hot and sexy and did I mention

• monster girl

[softness-and-shattering]

My current Locked Tomb theory, though it might rely too much on formula that these books like to fuck around with. So Tamsyn Muir has described the first and second books as ‘question books,’ and the third and fourth books as ‘answer books’. We also know that Nona takes place over “ten thousand years and one week”. Given the amazon chapter this week, it’s pretty clear to me that this is the book in which we learn about Jod, and the Lyctors, and how everything came to be the way that it is. (It’s gonna be a fun/stressful contrast of minute-by-minute and eternity-by-eternity, though, the backstory might be condensed into ‘earth’ and ‘houses time’ for the most part).  And as the story goes, we have a lot of the pieces, a lot of the players, but we dont know Jod’s plan, we dont know BOE’s plans, we dont really know what we’re rooting for to happen, what a good ending (or a worse one) looks like. Hell we’ve already had our two viewpoint characters die, Nona probably doesnt survive as Nona after her book (I assume she re-becomes Alecto; we’ll see), and destruction of everything in existence is so much less personal than these books are: sure they take place over millennia and galaxies but they are at their hearts personal intimate stories about love and grief and humanity. [does Jod need to grieve for Earth?] That a lot of ramble to get at my main point: The three quarter mark in most stories is where everything is ramped right up. In three act structure its the point where everything goes wrong in every possible way, and then the hero realises the power was inside them all along and they fight back from the brink to save the day. (A lot of the time in less-good stories this is where the characters all have a big fight for no good reason because the formula says Tension Here). So I think that Nona The Ninth is going to give us all the background, and the stakes, and put everything into position such that when we start Alecto, there are still some mysteries, but for the most part we know what we want, what could go wrong, what Jod wants, almost all the pieces on the board and in position; and then Alecto is gonna be a rollercoaster start to finish with just a few climactic mysteries left as the universe goes to hell in a handbasket.  Which also means Nona is probably going to end on at least one cliffhanger, but will also be so full of lore and wonder. 

[my-hand-that-will-not-harm-you]

watch Harrow have a single favor from Alecto for the next book, be insensate for 3/4 of the plot, and wake up 20 pages from the end to wish for Gideon’s life after Kiriona does something spectacularly self sacrificing. again.

[vengeful-horde-of-angry-ghosts]

Since we obviously have a while to wait for AtN, I'm making a pre-Alecto reading list for things I suspect might be influences/thematically appropriate.

So far I have:

The Orestia (if someone has a translation they love, throw it out there. I looked up Anne Carson's but it is different texts than the original)

Dante's Inferno

Paradise Lost

Realistically, I'm probably not going to read the Illiad unless someone can recommend a really, really good translation. I'm also intentionally leaving the Bible and Homestuck off the list.

Please add suggestions!

[jods-duplicitous-sluts]

So, I've been reading a lot of old interviews with TazMuir. Most I've read before, a few new to me. And I'm trying to find any tidbits, hints or allusions to Alecto and compile a list with sources of what we know.

It's not a ton, but is that something people would be interested in?

[pickledeyes]

me praying that necromancy does not like, disappear or whatever at the end of alecto. like i think that’s where muir is going with the series but i dont want it <3

[mayasaura]

This might be the most "well duh" statement in history, but something I'm really looking forward to in Alecto the Ninth is.... Alecto.

We've seen little glimpses of her here and there, through the Body and through Nona, and the picture I see them painting is definitely of someone who has been hurt very badly, and who is very angry about it, but there's more to it. She's more complicated than that.

She's conflicted about necromancy itself:

It's not that she hates or fears necromancy—it "feels nice", she has positive associations with it, but it also makes her sad that Palamedes is capable of doing it at all. Is that regret? Does Alecto regret having introduced necromancy into the world? Does she consider herself to share in responsibility for the consequences?

Does that have to do with why she's frightened of herself, and of who she thinks she'll become if she remembers herself? She's understandably afraid to remember what was done to her, but she's also afraid of the person she'll be once she does. She thinks that person—Alecto—is incapable of love.

And it could be that her fear is only of being a person who has suffered. That she doesn't want the pain. But this series has never been shy about complicating that narrative. No one in this story is a perfect victim. Very few characters have avoided suffering terrible and undeserved harm, and few have avoided causing it.

I want to know who Alecto is. Why Nona thinks that Alecto, who is defined by love, whose final words were "I still love you," is incapable of loving. Even more, I want to know why Alecto's later actions make that fear seem kind of.... reasonable. Why the Body—who was never anything but gentle and kind to Harrow—hurts Harrow on waking, and seems to not even understand hurt has been done.

Who else has Alecto hurt, and how does she understand it? What harm has she caused, and how is she going to face up to it? What role will Harrow and her relationship with Alecto play in that?

I have some ideas, but I don't really know. And I dunno. I'm pretty stoked to think we might find out.