#also I’ve not seen snw

[t4toro]

hey sorry but they goyified your inherently jewish written character. yea. yea no they tried catering to a wider audience. yea they made him scorf down a pile of bacon. i’m so sorry

[coredrill]

HERE IT IS. my second favorite snw tweet

[spirkbitch]

this just in from my tiktok comments

the only opinions you’re allowed to have about a show are like and dislike, otherwise just don’t watch it and keep it to yourself

[rivercule]

Started watching SNW (I want to go back to the og movies later to foster a sense of nostalgia) and I’m not sure how I feel about most of it but I love Uhura saving the day through the power of music in the second episode

[frankierotwinkdeath]

The devil is telling me to go back and rewatch every Star Trek show in order

[lostyesterday]

There is a certain type of Star Trek character that is extremely and vocally hated by at least some large segments of the fandom. These aren’t just characters that many people dislike – these are characters who are actively hated by a significant number of people, usually ostensibly because they are “annoying” in some way. This isn’t a phenomenon unique to the Star Trek fandom by any means, but I’m interested in examining this phenomenon in relation to Star Trek in particular – including which characters it applies to and the potential reasons why it might exist.

First, I wanted to make a list of Star Trek characters that I believe definitely count as overly hated from the Trek shows whose fandoms I’m most familiar with:

Wesley (TNG)

Pulaski (TNG)

Keiko (DS9/TNG)

Ezri (DS9)

Winn (DS9)

Neelix (Voyager)

Michael (Discovery)

Adira (Discovery)

Then there are the characters who I’ve seen a lot of hate toward, but I’m not sure if it’s from a large enough segment of the fandom or is vitriolic enough to count completely:

Chapel (TOS)

Lwaxana (TNG/DS9)

Julian (DS9)

Kes (Voyager)

Naomi (Voyager)

Gray (Discovery)

La’an (SNW)

Obviously, I think it’s perfectly fine and reasonable to dislike any of the above characters. What I’m talking about here is when people act like there is something fundamentally terrible or irredeemably annoying about these characters in comparison to other similar characters, with a base assumption that most everyone in the world is going to agree that these characters just suck.

So what makes these particular characters such common targets of hate? The most obvious pattern I see in these lists is that female characters are vastly overrepresented, which is hardly surprising. Fandoms disproportionately finding female characters “annoying” and “badly written” is hardly a new thing. Also, in addition to just plain sexism, there’s certainly a racial element to the ways people hate Michael and Keiko, and a lot of people who talk about how much they hate Adira will just straight up admit it’s because they hate trans people. On the other hand, I’ve seen more hate toward Wesley than most of the other characters on these lists, and he’s a white boy. Could there be elements of the hate toward characters like Wesley and Neelix that are also gendered – as in, these characters somehow don’t measure up to cultural standards of masculinity in a way many people find irritating?

Obviously, bigotry plays a large role in why a lot of these characters are hated, but it probably isn’t the whole story either. Fundamentally, the thing that confuses me here is that I don’t personally find any of the characters on the above lists to be more “annoying” than average. I slightly dislike a few of them, but I don’t hate any of them, and I don’t understand what it is about them in particular that makes them prime targets for such vitriolic and widespread hatred.

I’d love to hear other people’s thoughts on this. In particular, what do you think about the above lists of characters that I think definitely count and might count as overly hated in the Star Trek fandom? Are there any characters you’d add to or remove from either list? And do you notice any patterns in the types of characters that end up being overly hated?

[star-trek-fandom-confessions]

#887

It’s gotten really tiring how much it feels like every time I see someone reference a thing they like about a new Trek series, there’s almost always someone bringing up an (often unrelated) thing they don’t like. Like I’ll say something like “I thought Under the Cloak of War was a really good episode” and there’s inevitably someone going “yeah but I hate what SNW is doing with the Gorn” and its like not that I necessarily disagree but? That’s also a completely separate thing. Especially because I almost never see the same kind of energy with classic Trek series. Like I’ve never seen someone going “man In the Pale Moonlight is an amazing episode” and three people jumping in to go “yeah but I don’t like the Pah Wraiths very much”. It just kinda feels like with the new series a lot of people kind of like to “forget” that tv shows have multiple storylines and characters that can range in quality and you can have completely different feelings about different ones. Like idk I just get tired of what feels like this automatic need among pretty large parts of the fandom to tell anyone who likes anything about any of the new series that they  shouldn’t like that thing because there’s some other thing the shows are doing totally wrong and this therefore should automatically devalue any enjoyment anyone gets from them. 

[savameh]

Also as an aside Boimler and Mariner both seemed very neurodivergent in “Those Old Scientists”?

One thing I’ve noticed in SNW is how neurotypical/allistic the main characters seem, with the exception of Spock, and Boimler and Mariner’s presence really made that obvious

Like, it could be because social norms in their time differ or because the culture of the Cerritos, a Cali-class, is different than an important ship like the Enterprise (or of course because they’re in the presence of famous people in the past and they’re overexcited), but it can be seen a little in Lower Decks itself

But Boimler and Mariner definitely came off as very ND to me in this episode

[curator-on-ao3]

🚨 Warning: I’m about to take @spockandstars’ excellent post way too seriously. Also note that the following is mostly about SNW and PIC. I haven’t seen the most recent season of Disco, and I haven’t seen any of Prodigy. Lower Decks, you’re an angel and I love you.

•

So, here’s the thing. We all know fanfic writing and actual canon writing call for different skills in terms of production needs, as well as writing a script versus narrative-style writing.

I also am probably in the minority in saying that a fanfic writer who did make the leap to the shows has written episodes that are fine and episodes that I can’t stand. So employing Trekkies/fanfic writers wouldn’t necessarily cure Trek’s problems and could, in fact, worsen them by limiting fresh perspectives. (Reminder: I’m taking the excellent post too seriously and the post’s insinuation that too many Trek show writers lack actual Trek knowledge is valid.)

However, what fanfic writers famously do is care. We care about characters, we care about coherence of plot and story. We care about the universe. And that care isn’t necessarily from a place of love. It can be. But fanfic writing also can come from a place of frustration, of wishing characters could have the plotline/attention/realization/etc. that the writer wants for them.

And, sometimes, it feels like modern Trek doesn’t care. Simple fixes to plot holes that would require a line or two of dialogue don’t happen. Characters are shunted to the side or have their characterization change with the season. It feels as if no one in the writers’ room says or is heard if they say, “That plot is repetitive, what about X or Y?” or, “Why would a character do that when they could do W or Z, which would be more in keeping with their established traits?” or even, “That doesn’t make sense. We have to find another way.”

So, yeah, I’ve always said fanfic writers have the luxury of caring about a show or characters without concern for the financial side of the property. But it would be nice to feel as if people who do control the financial and production sides cared, too.

[isagrimorie]

The SNW cliffhanger in s2 is interesting because the longer it is, the more there’s some big expectations on my part regarding Pike.

The unfortunate thing with the showrunners invoking Hegemony as Best of Both Worlds level… which is ambitious of them but also IMO, a bit unfair to do. BoBW was very specific in context and there was a reason why it was, for the fans of that time, very momentous (as someone who didn’t grow up with BoBW, it unfortunately lived up to the hype. I found the 2 part cliffhangers on Voyager were constructed better).

Evoking BOBW is unfortunately putting Hegemony in a box.

Also, in terms of actions, I feel the decision to linger on Pike’s indecision was not helpful to the character.

I have written a defense of Pike as a Peace time Captain pushed into a War time decision making but the more time passes, the more I’m left turning the moment in my head again and again.

I suspect the writers for s2 will find a way for Pike to get back stronger after his moment of indecision. As I’ve mentioned, he is not a war time Captain.

Unfortunately, since that time I’ve been mainlining Voyager and DS9 and it’s difficult not to hold up Pike to the measure of Sisko and Janeway.

But I am also consciously making myself acknowledge that Pike did not have the history Sisko and Janeway have — Wolf 359 for Sisko, and for Janeway the Cardassian border conflict, that depending on the beta canon, was either limited to the siege ground war on top of being captured and tortured.

Pike seems to have emerged from a golden age (ish) of the early days of Federation.

I don’t recall Pike being this indecisive in Discovery s2 (I’m doing a rewatch of Disco, so I’ll see how that holds up) but there seems to be more emphasis on SNW that Pike has never really seen war service because he was deliberately kept away from it.

Which, I think is both savvy of Starfleet but also gives an impression that they’re handling Pike with kid gloves. Since they seem committed to this path for Pike, if they’re honestly going to engage with this part of Pike.

They started in Quality of Mercy invoking the events from Balance of Terror. (I wish they hadn’t done this but they did… it isn’t my favorite of the season 1 episodes. Structurally and filmmaking wise, despite all advancements I preferred BoT. SNW is a lot better when it's doing something original and not pulling from the TOS-era directly).

TLDR, I’m really curious how they will handle the last conclusion of the Hegemony 2-parter and how they will write Pike because I’m sure the writers will want Pike to run out the gate swinging and in command.

On rewatch though, you know who comported themselves very well under pressure and combat in Hegemony? Commander Una Chin-Riley. If there’s comparisons to be made about BoBW, it’s that both First Officers —Will Riker and Una Chin-Riley— acted very well and very decisively.

[goodobservationshirley]

on SNW 202 and technicalities

i keep seeing people refer to the outcome of Ad Astra Per Aspera as Una getting off on a technicality and i don’t think that’s accurate or that it captures  what happened in that courtroom

there IS a way Una could have gotten off on a technicality and it is mentioned in the episode. they could have managed to prove that the information of Una being an Illyrian was obtained illegally and get the whole case dismissed because of it. this, crucially, did not happen

what happened instead is a choice. Una’s ex-gf presented the judges with an alternative : they could stick to the letter of the law regarding starfleet’s regulations against Illyrians OR they could CHOOSE to consider this other regulation which also applies in this case

why should they choose to do this? because, Neera argues, the federation has been discriminating against and just downright persecuting Illyrians. starfleet's strict regulations against permanent genetic modifications are a direct part of this. this goes against what the federation and starfleet stand for. in other words, sometimes, laws are unjust

i’ve seen a few comments that were like ‘Neera tried to convince the judges Una was a refugee all along and they believed her.’ no. they chose to believe her. this is very important. they were not tricked. they were given an opportunity to not have to uphold an unjust law and they took it because they believed it was the right thing to do

this episode is, maybe more than anything else, about choices. Una’s choice to not hide who she is anymore (which ultimately proved to be the choice that saved her), starfleet captains famously choosing not to follow regulations sometimes... and their choice to hide behind these regulations when it suits their own prejudices, and of course the judges’ choice to confirm Una’s refugee status in order to grant her protection from starfleet’s unjust regulations

this ruling saved Una. but did it save all Illyrians? this being a prequel, we know that it didn’t. we know that years later this kind of prejudice still exists within starfleet. but it doesn’t have to mean this ruling helped no one but Una. Neera got these judges to officially acknowledge that the federation has been persecuting Illyrians. this is huge. it’s not hard to imagine how in years to come this ruling could help many Illyrians in their own fight for justice

so, no, Una did not get off on a technicality. she got off because her lawyer convinced the judges to make the right choice

[telelsie]

GAY SPOCK REAL OR FAKE PLEASE READ

i haven’t been an active tumblr user in about 3 years but SNW and the whole gay spock debate has been occupying enough space in my mind that i felt the need to inflict my opinion onto you all.

as a spirker myself, i’m not at all denying that the het romance arcs SNW is pushing for jim and spock are by no means my favorite. i dearly dearly wish that we would’ve gotten at least SOME queercoding from SNW this season, but i’m also not as disappointed as some of you are with the choices the SNW team has made for spock’s character. i’ve seen quite a few people begging for gay spock (bless u all) and canon spirk from SNW, which is unquestionably the ideal outcome for the series — and given the way both the writers and actors have reacted to and welcomed fan opinions and questions about where the jim/spock dynamic is heading, i don’t think it’s unreasonable at all for us to be optimistic about the show’s direction. if sybok can be in a queer relationship, then we’ve already gone miles past existing TOS canon in terms of queer rep.

admittedly, SNW has issues (ortegas show us ur girlfriend and the lesbian flag hanging in ur quarters!!! we all know it’s there!!), but i struggle to believe that the het romance arcs for jim and spock were written with the intention of convincing fans to ~let go of spirk~ or anything along those lines. in fact, i think the biggest issue that trek fans are having with SNW is wanting it to deliver on all the subtext and queercoding that existed in TOS on an implicit level explicitly and immediately. SNW is a prequel. it’s whole job is to set up and develop the relationships that appear in TOS; and it does an amazing job of this for the most part, especially in giving the female characters like una, christine, and t’pring traits other than crippling gene roddenberry syndrome. what i’m trying to say is that the SNW writers are doing a good job. yes, even (ESPECIALLY) with spock.

i get why people are protective of his character, i am too, but i don’t understand the lack of faith and, honestly, lack of viewing comprehension, that i’m seeing from self proclaimed spock fans. if you were expecting SNW to give us fully formed Nimoy-Spock within the first two seasons, then i’m sorry, but you’re a little bit of an idiot. a lot of you both don’t understand the purpose of the show (in general and in relation to spock’s development) and don’t value the importance of long form storytelling. in fact, in my ideal world, spirk wouldn’t even be together by the end of SNW. part of the value of the k/s dynamic in TOS was spock’s internal struggle with his feelings for jim, a struggle that defines his character, actions, and life throughout TOS and the movies. this is a struggle that isn’t resolved until midway through the movies, and it wouldn’t be doing justice to the canon that created spirk to have their relationship evolve into romance before the events of TOS.

spirk is, and always will be a long form story which derives its value from the fact that it is a Very Very slow burn. for the relationship to retain its value without being watered down by reinterpretation, it needs to have all the turns, pitfalls, and pining that it did in the original canon. although it’s entirely possible that the SNW writers have no plans of canonizing spirk, it’s also entirely possible that their plans are just a little more long term than what most of the community wants right now. i would far prefer a spirk that begins in 3 seasons of steadily evolving homoerotic friendship than one that jumps the gun and results in an unsatisfying and underbaked depiction of a relationship that deserves to be done justice.

TLDR: be patient!!! stop acting like SNW is actively taking spirk out behind the shed and shooting it!! SNW is already the best new trek to come out of the revival — give it a little more time and slack to build momentum and solidify its position within paramount and the fan community and you’ll be happy you waited.

[pinazee]

What did you think of Spock/Chapel chemistry season 2? are people just hating or did they lack it post episode 5 Charades.

I am not a fan of this ship, objectively, so I will like a more objective response and you seem to be fair to all trek ship. this is why I like to ask you questions.

Is it just hate when you see people say spock/chapel had no chemistry in season 2?

A lot of people and even critics said they had chemistry in season 1. do you think it is because they teased a will they or wont they hook up and people love a build up more than the actual relationsip?

It is as if the chemistry was gone once they got together after Charades? I don't know if that is fair or if it is because they have so many haters. However I do know a lot of critics, did not talk much about their chemistry in season 2 either.

Its interesting SNW did a big buffy homarge with the musical but the way they wrote the spock/chapel stuff did mirror some buffy couples. for instance Xander leaving Anya at the alter when he gets a message from the future that their marriage fails is similar to Chapel dumping Spock because Boimler tells her, she is not in his future. Cordy/Wesley were built to be a couple and had the chemistry for that but once they tried, the romance failed and there was no chemistry.

As I said, I don't like this ship, it just has too much baggage that was more negative than positive, but I do still like objective un bias opinions and you seem to be one of the neutral trek fans, who can be fair, so what are your takes on the chemistry of spock/chapel before and after they hooked up.

Thanks for the ask :)

I do think there was a tonal shift to Spapel once the relationship formed, but i also think the writers did that on purpose. I think this relationship is supposed to serve both Spock’s and Chapels overall separate arcs.

What I’ve gotten from it is that Spock’s experimenting with his more human emotions and letting himself feel more openly. So pre-relationship its just fun, intense, wanting. I honestly don’t think he was thinking beyond i want to be with her. So when they did get together, and he showed Chapel this sacred piece of his soul, it was terrifying. Because what if she left after he exposed this fresh and raw part of himself? That fear maybe led him to be too emotionally codependent.

As for Chapel, she has some unclear romantic baggage we haven’t seen yet, though, she’s said she doesn’t let people get close anymore. But then Spock came along, and he was kind and protective. He also listened to her and valued her. Whether she liked it or not, she fell for him pretty quickly. I mean, sometimes you just can’t help when the right person comes along. But then the relationship formed. Chapel, having apparently been stung before, wanted it to go slow because she too was afraid it would end, and she’d get her heart broken. Then Boimler all but said as much was going to happen and that was that. It was a like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Why become more attached to something doomed to fail?

So yeah, pre-relationship both are so caught up in their intense crushes, and then in the relationship they both need vastly different things (spock- a five year plan, chapel- space to figure it out).

It’s like they took the line “having is not so pleasing as wanting” and ran with it haha

Idk about the chemistry to be honest. I never really felt anything between them but i also never shipped them. It was too rushed, he was engaged for most of it, and they even had less screen time than la’an and kirk. I think if we got a scene of them just hanging out, maybe learning some more about Chapel, i think i might be more invested? Idk. Could also be because Chapel feels sidelined to Spock story-wise (which Ive gone more in depth in another post).

I uh, don’t know if this answers your question or if i just vomited up some nonsense haha

[halbarryislife]

You know how people are like “avoid things that make you unhappy”? Why can’t old trekkies who are strange new world haters just do that. I try to avoid them bitching about it but I’m bound to see something at some point. Let WE GET IT. You don’t like modern trek. Just say that you will never like new trek and all you really want are reruns. Tv has to change with the times, get over it. Like yes SNW does have somethings it could improve on but it’s arguably the most trek thing we’ve had in years. I also recall that those same Trekkie haters also hated Enterprise but now saying it’s the last great Star Trek media. They’re like “Star Trek is too depressing now” and strange new worlds is like “ok here’s some goofy fun like the old shows did” and the haters will turn around and say “omg this is so cringe Star Trek is dead”. Sorry this rant was caused by a comment I saw that said new trekkies only like SNW because it’s modern tv and not because it’s Star Trek, and that they bet those new trekkies have never seen any of the old shows. Sorry it pissed me off because I am technically a new trekkie even though I’ve been in this fandom for over a decade now.

[lostyesterday]

4. And least favourite character? 🦎

I’ll interpret this question as asking about the major character that I like the least from each series. I don’t necessarily actively dislike many of these characters, they’re just the characters I like the least.

TOS: Mccoy (I get why people like him but I have mixed feelings)

TNG: Wesley (I’m not a Wesley hater I just think he’s a bit boring)

DS9: O’Brien (I just don’t really find him compelling in comparison with the rest of the cast)

Voyager: Tom Paris (I like him sometimes, but at other times… ugh. Also he’s kind of the most boring Voyager character imo), Runner-up: The Doctor

Enterprise: Archer (again, mostly just boring, and occasionally pretty frustrating – I’ve only seen season 1 though)

Discovery: Ash Tyler (unfortunately I just think they messed up his character so badly)

SNW: Chapel (I don’t find the way they’ve written her interesting, I’m so sorry), Runner-ups: Pike and Spock

Picard: Jack Crusher (the only character on this list I strongly dislike – I don’t like anything about the way his role in the story was written) Runner-up: Shaw

Lower Decks: Ransom (I just find him grating), Runner-up: T’Ana

Prodigy: Jankom Pog (I don’t find this style of comic relief character funny and there wasn’t much else to his character in season 1 – I haven’t seen season 2 yet)

[lenievi]

because SNW is allowing me this reading and because it’s something I’ve always headcanoned (way before SNW and Kirk/La’an), I’m just gonna ramble and muse a bit

spoilers for snw2 episode 9

(if you wanna read more Kirk/La’an thoughts related to the episode, here. I’m probably going to muse about this a lot in the upcoming days, and make more coherent posts)

Kirk isn’t in love with Carol. He likes her, but he isn’t in love with her. His and Carol’s relationship was always casual; if the Farragut was close to Starbase 1, they were on, if they were away for a longer period of time, they were off. 

And now Carol is pregnant, which was unplanned, and caught both of them off guard. But Kirk’s loyal and serious, so he wants to be there for her and their child. Even though it complicates a lot of things. He might even think it will complicate his career, unless he wants to become his father and take his child through the galaxy, never having time for him.

TOS tells us that Kirk and Carol weren’t together by 2261. TWOK tells us that David met James Kirk and that Carol asked Kirk to stay away and never told David who his father was.

So there are two options. Carol tells Kirk to stay away quite soon after David is born, and he does, but years later, they reunite, but also they don’t get romantically back: “Were we together? Were we going to be?” and Kirk doesn’t really try to befriend David

OR they simply break up, but Kirk is allowed contact until a certain age. And after that Carol tells him to stay away. “You had your world and I had mine. And I wanted him in mine, not chasing through the universe with his father.” That could literally be after the 5ym, even. Or shortly before, but David remembers “that overgrown Boy Scout Carol used to hang around with”, so after seems more plausible. (but again, they don’t get back together) (which is something I did mention in this post some time ago)

[most of the stuff above is just my original HC tweaked a bit to fit new info from SNW]

Before SNW seriously introduced a potential of Kirk/La’an, I expected SNW to give us Kirk/Carol story. But last week, I was thinking and realized that SNW isn’t a Kirk story - he isn’t a main character (I know people tend to see it that way, but he’s not). We won’t see Kirk centric episodes (or at least we shouldn’t for a pretty long while imho or at all tbh) - his every appearance should be tied to the main cast. That doesn’t mean - as we’ve already seen - that we won’t get his backstory, but it might mean that a lot of Kirk’s life will just happen off screen.

(I’m not saying we won’t see Carol. They cleverly put her on Starbase 1 where the Enterprise returns to often. There’ll probably be an episode where the Enterprise will need to do something with the scientists at Starbase 1. Spock will probably meet Carol there as well, so they can also tick off another “canon” point. But it won’t be a Kirk story.)

I do tend to see Kirk/La’an from Kirk’s POV a lot because that’s just what I do (and because in the long run, it’s heartbreaking), but the story is written from La’an’s POV. She already lost Kirk once, she lost him twice. From the storytelling POV, the story should eventually lead toward something more positive when it comes to Kirk and La’an as a relationship. Not having them eventually get together (even if they part after or La’an dies) would just feel hollow and ??? Especially since Kirk confirmed that he had feelings for La’an, but he can’t act on them because he has a gf and a baby on the way. (and as viewers, we know that Kirk/Carol just won’t last even though the characters don’t know that)

(But also like, Kirk, pls, you have a gf and you’ve still kind of led La’an on.)

From Kirk’s POV, I can see the “it was a lost potential that never happened”. If Kirk was the main character (and not La’an), I’d probably even expect that. Kirk made his choice and La’an moved on. But not from La’an’s POV tbh Not giving La’an her chance at being vulnerable and happy with Kirk would be too bleak. But I’m also known for liking the “wrong couples” lol 

Using her experience with Kirk to find that elsewhere would of course work in RL, but as a story, it’d be disappointing.

Well, I might change my thoughts after I see the finale and what they do with Pike/Batel and Spock/Chapel lol I don’t believe Kirk is in the finale but maybe I’m wrong.

in any case, if Kirk doesn’t appear in the finale, I’m totally using this when I figure out what kind of Kirk/La’an fic I’d like to write. I just want to give both of them happiness. Even if it’s temporary. 

anyway SNW still giving me everything I want. when will it end? when will they disappoint me? lol (probably with McCoy LMAO)