#also i care more about the bad kids then i do about the rat grinders

[underwaterbanshee]

I'm just going to say it.

I love how unbalanced the first half of the final battle turned out to be simply because it highlights how important a tool failure is to becoming a full person able to contribute meaningfully to the team.

The Rat Grinders have level twenty abilities but no practical experience using them because they haven't failed in any of their adventuring. Jace or Porter has taken the danger away from the onset of every encounter and just given them the experience and so they don't know how to work the battlefield.

It isn't even about the number of times the Bad Kids have died and come back or tripped over their own feet. Fabian and Fig both got separated from group and had really bad things happen to them during Sophomore Year that resulted in encounters where they were out of spells, abilities, strength, you name it, and had to problem solve creatively until they could get out of really dangerous situations.

I'm not going to list the miracles of Saint Kristen Chilis Applebees because this post would just never end but her miracles were always the result of something failing and her seeking a creative solution.

Riz might not get caught swiping student files now but he was caught sneaking around Hell and compromised a Celestial Undercover Op by being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Gorgug has been told he'll never be smart enough his entire life. How many times did he fail with his tech checks in Freshman and Sophomore year before he got to reroll his intelligence stat block?

Adaine, who became elven oracle at fourteen, who had panic attacks all through Freshman year until someone told her she wasn't her anxiety and had a mental illness that could be medicated.

Failure is important because it teaches us how to solve problems and to take that away from children--teenagers especially--who are in the cusp of adulthood, will have consequences.

And in a world where teenagers are the ones going on adventures and saving the world--those consequences are terrifying.

So much of this season (inside and out) has been about fair, unfair, and what exactly do children owe the world that takes advantage of them and at what point do teenagers become complicit in the harm they are perpetuating. I don't think there is a perfect, nuanced answer that will satisfy everyone.

But I do think, we need to let our teenagers fail, and that somewhere, between the Bad Kids and the Rat Grinders, there is a way to do it so the world doesn't end because Arthur Auegfort decided not to return on the second day of school.

[cottoncandybitchfuck]

Riz Gukgak, a little rogue from a single-parent household. A natural detective, going nights without sleeping and worrying his mother to death. He was looking for his babysitter who had gone missing, he didn’t care about friends. He was the briefcase kid, he was used to getting bullied. He gets thrown into a trash can and called “The Ball.” He stole a teabag in the name of getting clues and got detention. He brought a gun to his first day of school. He killed a monster, making the worst but smartest choice of jumping into the corn monster. He joined the A.V. club with some gross people just to solve a mystery. He started taking care of a random rat just because he could. He used his suitcase as a skateboard during combat. He shot Coach Daybreak when he was unconscious just to make sure he was dead. He knew they weren’t done yet despite the cops having the palimpsest. He took 7 damage to try to save someone from a palimpsest. He shot 2 of his classmate’s fingers off to get him to answer their questions. He holds the sword of shadows. He kills a dragon and then eats him. “Fury of the Ball” He becomes a licensed investigator. He lied about having a partner, and it manifested and kidnapped him. He comes clean immediately. He gave up a secret only to save his friend he never thought he would have. He tried to help Fabian feel better after the fight at the Row and the Ruction. He helped save Adaine, helping take down a Plyon. He found record of the coin from the Nightmare King in Kalvaxus’ Horde. He was also the first to find out about the Shadow Cat.  He represented Fig in a legal trial in Hell. He met his dad and almost thought he was bad. He became part of the Lower Planar Reconnaissance Task Force. His biggest fear was getting left by his friends getting in relationships. He came up with the way to destroy Kalina. He used magic to be able to drive. He ran over Fabian. He joined every club he could and became a campaign manager so that he could go to college since his mom couldn’t afford it. *His principal cast Hold Monster on him…  He didn’t hesitate to protect Fig from the moon by throwing her into his briefcase and jumping in after her. His nightmare followed him, it attacked his friends. He got away again. He learned to talk shit. He hid so well and helped with the Last Stand so much. He found the rogue teacher, he solved so many points of the mystery. He killed another dragon! He is so protective of his friends, and he hated what the rat grinders stood for. “Make sure to cut his head off so he can’t be revived.” He submerged in lava just to throw Kipperlilly off.  “Very good on paper but… no practical application.” He apologized to Fig and Kristen for pushing them to do school when they didn’t want to, as well as made sure Kristen actually wanted to be president. He is Riz Gukgak, The Ball, and he is a huge part of the bad kids despite being so small. And the one thing Porter was right about? Riz is a “Little Shadow” and he is good at it too. 

It took me three hours to write this because I had to condense and cut so much. It’s 1am (12:14) in a warehouse in the middle of the sea (a dorm room) and I am finally done with this style of post. At least 4 more Bad Kids posts are coming, and then I’ll be normal again (posting about other fandoms and dnd shows)

*I said this was important! He used dominate person on Ruben, so that was a choice Grix made, there are no mechanical reasons for monster to work vs person

[jq37]

So, that lady FH episode was amazing and all, but...

Hoo boy, I already see the discourse around the Ratgrinders' fates forming and it is going to be painful. Be careful around the fandom space.

(I mean, resurrection is still on the table for them, but that's based on if the players feel like it and right now, we're looking at 50/50 odds at bests)

Yeah, don't worry about me. This isn't my first rodeo and also I post a lot about D20 and respond to asks I get but I don't actually personally engage with any of The Discourse (tm).

And I'm not really surprised at the reaction. I know people have been opinionated all season in two main camps (that have a lot of overlap): people dissatisfied with the narrative direction and people deeply sympathetic to the Rat Grinders to the point of being mad at the Bad Kids.

The first camp I mostly understand. I get wishing the cast would explore a certain storyline more. For example, I've been on the Aelwyn redemption arc train since literally the first episode of Fantasy High so I was a little disappointed that when that finally came to a head in Freshman Year, it was a big fight and then very little aftermath/unpacking because Aelwyn was sent to jail right after. And Sophomore Year hadn't been announced so I had no idea that she was gonna get another shot. But I wasn't upset or anything. Adaine at that point still hated her sister. She had no reason to want to reach out. And at the end of the day this is other people playing a game. Brennan presented them all the possible plot threads and they were most interested in self discovery, hanging out with each other, doing Shenanigans, and playing Tomb Raider re: Ankarna. Those are all options they were presented and it's not like they were doing crazy off-roading. It's well within the parameters of what D&D is. If you're gonna watch a show like this (or honestly any show), you have to accept that what's most interesting to you isn't always going to be the most interesting thing to the people in the driver's seat.

So yeah, I feel like this side of things I get (even though I'm fine with how things turned out).

The other camp--people being legit mad at the Bad Kids (and in some cases the actual cast) for treating the Rat Grinders like antagonists instead of victims that they were responsible for empathizing with and redeeming--I find kind of wild.

Like…you're mad at the kids who go to Child Murder School for killing kids who want to end the world and kill them specifically? Literally the first day of school the principal of the school says that adventurers are violent wanderers who engage in shenanigans and enact violence. This is the exact assignment they were given and that's what they're doing.

I think it's wild to at the same time believe that the Rat Grinders (who have killed people) are not responsible for their actions and deserve to be talked down while in the process of causing an apocalypse because they're just kids who were manipulated while at the same time calling the Bad Kids evil lunatics for trying to stop them by killing them (in a world where Revivify and Resurrection exist) even though they are ALSO kids who are doing what they've learned at Child Murder School. The Bad Kids have to be mature enough to thoroughly investigate the situation and have nuance about it but the Rat Grinders don't have any responsibility to not join a shady evil murder plan*? And do the Bad Kids really hate the Rat Grinders to the point where they're doing some overkill in this fight? Absolutely. But it's not like they're killing them because they hate them. They're killing them because they're trying to end the world--and they also happen to hate them. Are we forgetting that Kipperlilly killed Buddy--her own teammate--with a gleeful smile on her face? That was so out of pocket.

They're adventurers! Not guidance counselors! If Jawbone was like, "We need to kill these kids," yeah that would be weird but why would the Bad Kids extend an olive branch to the kids who (1) famously hate them, (2) killed at least one maybe 2 of their own party members, (3) endangered the entire student body population an hour ago, (4) are currently trying to end the world. Hell, Adaine was ready to be mean to her own sister in elf jail literally up until the point Brennan described how rough she looked from the torture and that's when she changed her mind. The Power of Love and Empathy is on the menu but it's a special item you only can get if you know the chef. Everyone else is getting a serving of These Hands. Just because you can find a vegan solution to a problem it doesn't mean you're obligated to.

This all comes down to, "Maybe teenagers shouldn't have godlike powers and the ability to play judge, jury, and executioner" but that's literally the premise of the entire show so you can't get around it without rejecting the show's entire premise. If they were like, "Hmm the systems that underpin our world are questionable and we should change the power structures" instead of, "Let's kill some bad guys!" then that's a totally different thing we're doing here!

And, idk man, this show has always had a Who Framed Roger Rabbit style morality where the normal rules of ethics stop applying when it's funny. They beat the crud out of Ragh and then lied to him that he shit his pants just for the bit. A pirate was rude/kinda racist to Riz so they scared him into killing himself. Riz ate the remains of the sentient (albiet evil) dragon he killed. That's all unhinged behavior but none of that is meant to be serious. Getting upset about Fig sending Ruben to hell to me feels like getting mad that Jerry hit Tom with a cartoonishly large mallet.

None of this is new so I have to assume that people are having a big reaction because they relate to the Rat Grinders or just really like them so it feels bad that the Bad Kids are treating them like fodder rather than beloved NPCs.

But again, this is a world where you can bring people back from the dead and the Rat Grinders have showed intent that is grievously neglectful at best and insanely murderous at worst so I can't muster a lot of sympathy for the fact that the Bad Kids are just taking them down without remorse. I don't think you have to try to empathize with the people who are trying to harm you if you don't want to especially while they are in the process of harming you.

(*And we still don't know how voluntarily they joined this plan. We don't know if they were killed and basically forced into resurrecting with rage or if they just leapt at the chance to join a plan that would let them get one over on their rivals. It literally could be either. We've had kid villains on this show strong armed into being party to evil plans by threat of harm (Aelwyn) as well was kid villains who just had their own selfish motivations and weren't tricked at all (Penelope and Biz). We actually don't have any clear answer on how culpable they are. We don't know if they all have rage crystals (except for Buddy). And we don't know how much having a Rage Crystal effects your actions. The best indicator we got is in this latest ep when Brennan said that there was a mechanic where Porter was going to call anyone with a rage crystal to fight for him but that says to me that he's only directly puppeting them when he uses that action and otherwise they have free will and are just angrier. The Bad Kids don't have a reason to believe definitively that the Rat Grinders are just unwilling puppets even if that is the case so of course they're treating them like enemies. Anyway, this is a whole lot of "I don't knows" but that's only because I've seen a lot of people talking like the Rat Grinders literally aren't in control of their actions but that's not info that we have. It could be true but we don't actually know that so it's not a good argument.)

[fanstuffrantings]

I love that the rat grinders embody a trope that ultimately doesn't pan out the way they'd want because for it to be fully effective, your rival has to know you exist. All of them did the best they could to get as cool as possible and it's clear that was done specifically to get back at the bad kids, they were apparently notorious in school for hating the bad kids, and yet the bad kids had no idea that they were even there through it all.

The description of Ruben specifically makes me think of this trope the most, he fully changed himself to make himself cooler to the general public and got the fame he wanted. But unlike the RG's, the bad kids really don't have to alter themselves to gain attention. They're just themselves and it draws people in.

I'm also fairly sure it's what bonds them together, not friendship but a collective hatred of the bad kids. And this is also probably what ended up ostracising Lucy from them ultimately leading to her death. Lucy would've been the one to befriend the bad kids and give up on the plan if she'd had the chance to speak to them. It was clear she didn't have nearly the level of hatred towards other people, even her line about her goddess said so. She believed in the importance of community and care.

I'm willing to bet she wanted to back out of the plan and leave the group, she probably was pressured by them into being willing to change her God but ultimately realized she didn't want to and that even if she failed she'd rather fail as herself and that infuriated the group because they needed a cleric. We still don't know for sure when rage the rage symptoms truly started to pop up more often and I do think the Rat grinders and Lucy's death where major players in it happening.

I think Lucy grew out of the rat grinders and they couldn't take that and the fear of her outing their plans to other people over shadowed everything else and she died. Was it rage that struck the blows in a moment of panic and loss of control? Was it actually premeditated with the RG's already deciding this would be her end? I genuinely want to know.

[arainywriter]

this is going to probably be the longest post of my life, and i HATE getting into fandom discourse which is why i don't usually write anything about fandom discourse, but i just want to address some things about our favorite rat grinders so if you want to read, click below

as someone who loves the rat grinders as nuanced antagonists who are also teenagers, i think the rat grinders before they ever joined in on porter and jace's plan were assholes.

i think they were the quiet bullies, the mean people who you never notice until they are mean to you, the ones who seem nice and respectable up close, but talk shit about you the minute you're gone.

i think most of them (kipperlilly in particular) were looking for a reason to be bad. and i know we might not ever get this confirmation, but based off kipperlilly's file and other moments with the trg, i think it's possible this is correct.

they were assholes who needed a reason to be even bigger, more dangerous assholes and most of them took it. and yes, it was either that or be dead, but i want you to know that sometimes that's not even a question. sometimes you don't even care about the other option, you just want to rage.

i think the one time all of them or maybe some of them even thought that what they were doing could be was when lucy died. and that's when i feel bad for them. they had to lock in right there because they all had made a decision, and they all needed to continue it. that's the manipulation.

i know they are kids. they are just teenagers. i work with teens, and guys, let me tell you, some teenagers are assholes. and i don't mean say a funny mean joke asshole, i mean literally going to grow up and be a shitty person asshole. i think some of the rat grinders were those kind of teens.

did they deserve to be redeemed? i think some of them do. i think buddy has a big shot at being redeemed, and i genuinely hated that he died in the last stand and had to make that decision. i think ally is going to try if they can. i think mary ann might be redeemed.

but also, you guys have to remember that this is dnd. i don't think many of you have played dnd before, or if you have you're just really conscientious about everything you do. because as a dm who has played dnd and has made nuanced antagonists, your players are gonna straight up kill them.

brennan knows that. i'm 100% sure he knows that. this isn't scripted. the intrepid heroes aren't thinking about what the fans want every time they play. in dnd, ESPECIALLY in brennan's dnd, it's kill or be killed.

the rat grinder's weren't going to use non-lethal attacks. they were going to kill the bad kids, and they were going to be UNNATURALLY happy throughout it all. they were going to spit in their faces and roast marshmallows on their bodies. they were going to not feel guilty.

sound familiar?

i think the bad kids have been nice to the rat grinders since day one. not kind, nice. they've been polite and nice to them, not going all in until this fight. if this fight happened before the finale, i think the rat grinders would have had more time to be redeemed (ex. see Ragh in season 1 who def would have died in the finale battle if the bad kids hadn't fought him earlier). but the bad kids are stressed and done.

there is no time to be polite and nice when the world is going to end.

i know you liked these characters. i did too. i'm sad to see them go, but even when someone is nuanced and could be redeemed, the person they were a piece of shit to doesn't have to be the one to redeem them. they don't have to be the one to keep them alive and make sure they only get taken the police instead of dead. cause trg would have gone to jail.

aelwyn did. so would they.

people you've wronged don't owe you forgiveness or redemption. trg didn't wrong tbk that bad, but they made them angry, they tried to kill them, and they're probably almost close to ending the world.

i'll miss you rat grinders. you guys were perfect narrative foils, but it was always going to end like this.

now stop being absolute assholes to the intrepid heroes just cause they didn't play how you wanted.

love this fandom, and yeah, d20 get shit wrong sometimes. always make sure to critique your favorite piece of media.

but at the end of the day, this isn't your table to play dnd at. this is theirs and they are having fun. why don't you go and play as the rat grinders in your home game and give them the ending they deserve, or make fanfiction about it?

put your anger into that.

[sixthsensewulf]

Let's talk about my favourite duos in each IH campaign. . Not the player duos but the characters. Since all the players have the amazing chemistry with each other and know how to build relationships etc.

It's why most of the campaigns just go hard with Found Family with the exception of A Crown of Candy. . That's just Family. But the others - 100% found family.

FANTASY HIGH

All 3 of the campaigns in this world.. the Bad Kids friendship with each other is so heartwarming and sweet it's amazing. The kids are also traumatised as well as forced to grow up into the world. But also how they really do care for each other. So choosing a duo for each year was bloody hard.

Freshman Year : Gorgug and Fig

Honestly yeah. The friendship between Gorgug and Fig is basically why they started Fig and the Sig Figs. Fig got Gorgug into drumming to help with his rage etc.

Sophomore Year : Fabian and Gorgug

How can you not love this duo. They really come into their own this season. It's the hug when they reunite in the Nightmare Forest. Like take the fact that the first interaction these two had at high school was Fabian punching Gorgug. . Then to share a hug after Gorgug told Fabian that he remembers him.

Junior Year: Riz and Kristen

The class president and her campaign manager.. what's not to love. Honestly Junior Year was tough for me to pick a duo since I love all the duos out there. But Riz and Kristen take it. It's Riz watching Kristen when she goes and talks to her parents. It's him backing her play towards the Rat Grinders as well.

The Unsleeping City

This setting I feel like is one the underappreciated campaigns or the underestimated ones. Like it's not underrated. This weirdly has turned into my comfort campaign, I just can't get bored of this setting. Give me more urban fantasy settings D20 please. Like this campaign setting literally gave me my 3 favourite NPC to PC relationships (Ester and Ricky, Dale and Sofia, Liz and Kingston). In the first chapter, you get the very good example of "you don't need every character to have insane character development in order to tell the best story" in Ricky. Chapter Two has sort of the similar vibe with Ida and Rowan.

Chapter One : Kingston and Pete

The Voxs .. I could write an essay on the relationship of these two. The growth and development of both of them. Like come on. .from Kingston telling the rest of the team that he will and would put Pete down if Pete goes out of control... To apologise and revive Pete during the Robert Moses fight. The father - son relationship.. these two had

Chapter Two : Ricky and Cody

The Journey of these two is one of my favourites. Just the duo of Zac and Murph 100% helped, but the growth of the duo was soo good. Ricky and Cody, the paladins of the group are doing insane damage in the final fight.

****

A Crown of Candy : Lapin and Liam

There is a lot to say about the duos of ACoC. They all have their story to tell. They all grow. But the Lapin and Liam story is very bitter sweet. But the reunion between the two of them when Lapin saved the kid and told him of the Bulb etc, was so cute. Like literally the smile and small laugh from Lapin from Liam told him, that he will kill "that carrot".

****

Starstruck: Barry and Margaret

This season was hard to pick. They all are soo good and chaotic. But Barry and Margaret duo was honestly a good duo. The call to arms tactic, Margaret brought in. Make the already protective Barry, more protective.

****

Neverafter : Mother Goose and PiB

Just the two voices of reason of the group. . . Yeah PiB being the voice of reason half the time was very interesting. Like if a trickster spirit is telling the group to calm down a little or reign it in then oh boy. .. but Mother Goose and PiB are such an interesting duo. I honestly quite like the old man and his cat....

(also kinda clocked most of them are the quartet of Zac, Ally, Murph and Lou. . that's not intentional at all... )

[velvetvexations]

I'm genuinely trying to not just be constantly negative and starting shit and arguing with people. I feel like even the people I mostly agree with are getting put off by it if they haven't already. I'm very self-conscious about my opinions and how much I talk on a given subject, and I know I do have issues that make my expressed opinions more pointed than necessary.

But like, me jokingly comparing the Bad Kids to the protagonists of 8-Bit Theater is interesting, because I love 8-Bit Theater to death, it's an extremely important work to me, it hurts a lot that I didn't hear about the scriptbook Kickstarter until it was over and I'll always be looking for a pre-owned copy for the rest of my life.

Like, I think the issue isn't that I have a problem with the Bad Kids acting so awfully. That's okay, especially in a comedy. Comedic sociopathy is a totally fine trope and I enjoy it on a regular basis. The issue that gets me is that it's such a hard counter to not only D20's usual tone, but also the way the DM, the players, the narrative itself, and most of all the fandom treat them and their actions.

That's why I soured on Kristen specifically so hard and so fast, because before JY I just thought she was like, A Lot, but not really a big deal and had some good, solid moments in SY (I did not like FY in general for completely unrelated reasons, sadly). But with JY, it was like, right out the gate she's ignoring Cassandra literally half to death, and I wonder if that would have seriously bothered me as much as it did if the fandom wasn't determined to completely excuse her for it in spite of the fact that it was clearly meant to be a personal character flaw and not just "unfortunately mental illness is happening to her".

Even then I was like, hey, I watched those promo videos, this is obviously something that's been planned ahead and will be dealt with. I'm very far from the first person to point out that we're now entering the season finale and chaos has not yet stopped being cute. Partially that in particular may have been hamstrung by the dice rebellion in the mall fight, with the original plan having been for Cassandra to not get separated from Kristen so fast and subsequently unable to have them actively work on their relationship and Kristen's commitment to her. Kristen running for president also likely threw a monkey wrench into decutifying chaos, because there was never any chance of Ally going about that by having Kristen put on a slick suit and say "I need to take this seriously and research school governance and formulate a policy I'll elaborate on in a debate with Kipperlilly". The race for president could only possibly be a bit the second it went to her instead of Riz, not because I don't think Ally could handle that kinna plot if they set their mind to it, Margret Encino would have killed it just as good as Riz, but because it's simply so far from who Kristen Applebees is as a character.

So anyway, I sat there watching this season waiting for Kristen to grow up because I had faith that was going to happen. But lest you think I just hate Kristen and possibly also Ally, these last few weeks they've been the least of the issue.

As hilarious as it was I don't understand how in the good Lord's name we're supposed to care about Oisin "making Adaine think she liked him" by acting a little flustered around her when Fig literally started catfishing Ruben on the first day of school ages before they had any in-character reasons to suspect the Rat Grinders of anything, all so she could...no, really, why the fuck did she do that? What was the impetus for that decision? I cannot emphasize enough how little motivation is given for this course of action:

There is nothing to it except that Emily correctly pegged he'd be an antagonist later. It's like the detectives on Law & Order arresting someone because they recognized the special guest star.

And like, other people, I get it, other people who don't like the direction JY has taken can shrug it off more easily than I can, there are a million reasons to not treat this like the end of the world, but unfortunately my autism gets me stuck on shit and I just cannot reconcile things like this. I cannot take the show seriously and care about the protagonists as people and share joy in their triumphs and sorrow in their failures and ignore something as blatantly breaking the logic as stuff like this.

I'll grant you, okay, Adaine was understandably hurt but neither the Bad Kids nor the Intrepid Heroes were really like "oh now we have to really fucking ruin Oisin for being the worst person alive". The fandom treated it like he Frozen'd her but fandoms are dumb and should not dictate as much of my opinion as they do, I simply cannot fathom the kind of person who'll cry over the deep and traumatic emotional damage Oisin caused Adaine with his missed beer pong shots but doesn't think Fig should be in jail.

That's also not the end of it, though. I could keep going on just about Fig specifically and the fact that she is at least sex crimes-adjacent, not to mention Emily's infantilization of a very autistic-coded character, but I'm trying very hard to not just come off as being like the people who have harassed Emily and Ally over their roleplaying choices in the past. As I keep stressing, I like both of them and especially Emily because I've been a CollegeHumor fan longer than some D20 fans have been alive. I think I actually like Fig more accepting that she kinna canonically sucks and taking her as more a Complicated Woman than someone whose actions I need to reconcile with the expectation of her being better than that, although I know none of it will ever actually be addressed.

So yeah, all the Bad Kids have been fucking weird this season in ways they weren't in SY. Adaine's intense and completely inexplicable loathing of Kipperlilly was funny at first and then increasingly uncomfortable as it fed into the fans wanting to crucify her. Gorgug going full bully was weird but also like, a one line bit, but whatever. Riz stealing Kipperlilly's file was gross and would or SHOULD deeply hurt Jawbone if he ever found out, and you can say they had to do this horribly unethical action in the name of homeland security or whatever, I accept that there were extenuating circumstances, but it's given no thought whatsoever and absolutely no regard is given to the fact that she was trying to address her issues with the closest mental health professional available who Brennan goes out of his way to note is failing her by overcorrecting for his bias towards the BKs.

But as much as I genuinely believe Brennan has been planting seeds the Rat Grinders could be reached, he's not been great here either and like Mice & Murder these things are more on him than any of the players because he's the director here. Like, I'm embarrassed I got snippy with someone who guessed ahead of time that Kipperlilly desecrated the rogue teacher's grave, but nonetheless think it was a weird conclusion to reach and that it's just even more bizarre that it ended up being "right", except the way it's described doesn't even make sense.

Like, the goal was "find the rogue teacher", right? And the rogue teacher is dead. So to me, it certainly seems like bringing a back hoe to the graveyard is one hundred percent the right move! But even if we accept the apparent canonical intent that was Kipperlilly threatening to merely destroy the grave as an act of vandalism rather than retrieve the body, it's like...so what? Literally who cares? As if the Bad Kids or any other adventuring party wouldn't dig up a dead body to cast Speak with Dead or something, as if the foundational Dungeons & Dragons formula wasn't raiding tombs like 19th-century colonial archeologists? And why would any of that be necessary anyway, when Riz found Eugenia by just...walking up to the grave?

But regardless, that, you might say, is a matter of the Rat Grinders being unfairly presented as evil and not the Bad Kids being unfairly presented as good. When it comes to Brennan's part in it, though, these are the same issue, because as the creator and director of every atom of the world outside the PCs, he's just so very willing to go with what the players start to expect. That's fine for a home game, but this is like, a television show that people pay money for, and that's an issue. He'll plant enough seeds of the Rat Grinders being better than they're treated that a chunk of the audience will notice and think the players are being weird about them, but he won't push it further than that and instead just rolls with the players being weird because his first priority is their enjoyment.

Again, fine in a home game, obviously. But it creates this divide between the players and the audience because the world has been crafted in such a way that when the players being weird is noticed it's like, why are they being rewarded for that? Why are they getting zero pushback? Brennan and I both heavily, heavily value collaborative storytelling for good reason, it's why I love TTRPGs and actual plays, but if this were a story told by a single person you could either have the protagonists pick up on those hints, have it be a point that they didn't pick up on them, or just not even include them in the first place.

One of the reasons I really, really like Aabria's DMing, as I've said recently, is that she truly remains firm in her worldbuilding and is not shy about providing realistic consequences or acknowledging PC behavior is dissonant with what's going on around them. And it just makes it super ironic that Kipperlilly's whole deal is correctly identifying the fact that the world is warped around the Bad Kids, and in this season more than ever the DM is like, fully changing reality to accommodate them and giving them plot resolutions on a silver platter, to the point of letting them just full-on take back spells because the target turned out to not be there, which is pretty far beyond the quibble about the climactic move in Calamity's final boss fight.

It's not that I think D20 is 'rigged' exactly, because it's not really a game, or at least it's not really Dungeons & Dragons. This was a revelation I had when I watched Critical Role other than Calamity for the first time and was amazed by how they'd stand around after a battle looting bodies for random magic items. D20 isn't a sandbox TTRPG, it's a very on-rails shooting gallery with roughly as much choice in the narrative as a modern RPG video game, and it has to all wrap within a certain amount of sessions. That's fine, but occasionally it can feel deceptive when we pretend there's much chance of things going radically wrong. One of the reasons I liked the first half of Crown of Candy and all of The Ravening War so much is because they're the only times where failure has really, truly been on the table in an Intrepid Heroes season, but I still liked most of the other Intrepid Hero seasons nonetheless.

This season, I just, I dunno man. I don't believe Ice Feast just accidentally wah wah wah had the effect of completely neutralizing the primary threat of the final boss fight. And Blimeygate, like, I thought it was mostly a fun moment, but it also felt like the most exaggerated-for-marketing-purposes the "got'em!" bits have ever been.

But despite all that, I am still currently capable of enjoying the next season. I'm hoping next week does not make things dramatically worse.

[queen-of-the-grapefruits]

Is it possible the rat grinders are being controlled to do what they are doing? I mean even if they were I think they have issues already, they aren't perfect people. Kipperlilly as known anger issues and has specifically disliked riz since freshman year. she also seems kinda controlling/manipulative considering Ruben didn't think anything was off about being told by Kipperlily (fig) that he had to take the fall for everything essentially. I think it's entirely possible they could be being controlled to bring back corrupted Ankarna, whether by Jace or somehow Ankarna herself (unlikely) or an unknown third party. These are kids who were a semi normal adventuring party and then their cleric is killed and a mark put on her to keep her from being brought back, the cleric teacher killed when looking into it, and their new cleric killed definitely by them.

The Rat grinders motivations have confused me for a while. They don't really seem to have a clear one. They seemingly have at least two; sabotage the bad kids, bring back a dead God. These don't seem to be connected either. It feels more like Kipperlily is trying to destroy the bad kids then literally anyone else in the rest grinders. It's possible the Rat grinders, like much of the school, are being affected by rage, so even though they are trying to bring about a dead God, kipperlily is to angry about the bad kids to not try to hurt and sabotage them. The Rat grinders don't really feel like friends the way the bad kids or the seven are. They are fragmented. They seem to go along with kipperlily but it doesn't feel like they actually care about the bad kids. Ruben has been negative about Fig but honestly, that felt more like feeling she's a musical rival and disliking her for it or disliking her because he hears kipperlily complain about the bad kids then actually having a problem with Fig herself.

I don't know. I feel like these are teenagers, and they are probably not just outright Evil, you know. I feel like there has to be something deeper going on. Idk

[kipperlillyforpresident]

Okay so number one. Super cool that you wrote your paper on the American dream. Single-handedly it is my favorite antag from any season.

And two. Well it is true the back to back filming probably definitely made them have less nuance for this. I absolutely agree with your statement. If your players can't engage in a story something is probably wrong. Honestly I've just come to the conclusion that the reason that episode 19 felt so weird. Is because it felt more like it was the intrepid heroes killing the rat grinders. Instead of the bad kids killing the rat grinders. Like I don't know if I'm just going crazy here?? I know it happens where your characters blend together so much in your mind That it's hard to differentiate the character from the player. But things felt so mean spirited in like a unique way. Like a unique way that you can only get from hating a villain as the viewer. Instead of like the character. Because besides Kristen trying to see if Buddy was still in there. It felt as if, the bad kids. Who have notoriously all been put into difficult situations at different times because of various adults. Saw what is basically just them without the support system. And hit it with a nuke. It's not like a Johnny spells type thing where You can be like "this guy sucks. kill his ass." Cause besides Kipper Lily. We don't actually know any of the rat grinders motivations. Like people can say that the rat grinders were just power hungry All they want. But the more likely answer is probably, Porter saw a group of vulnerable children who were actively unsatisfied with the situation they had been put in. And prayed on that!

It's frustrating definitely. But there is always fix it fics. And these final episodes aren't going to stop me from loving the rat grinders. I do not care what anyone in the fandom says. Because half of the time they're just spitting the same misogynistic bullshit we got with saccharina frostwhip. I'm genuinely hoping That at least the adventuring party clears up some things??. But my hopes are low unfortunately. Mary Ann forever though. She got that dog in her

a) IT WAS REALLY COOL!! i also wrote a final paper in a different class about the cubbys . Communications is kind of fake as hell as a major (if youre thinking of becoming a comm major dont </3 its great for student athletes who dont need jobs. as for me. um. well. 1 year out of college no new job), but it meant I was able to write a lot of interesting papers and my professors gave me room to run with it.

b) That's a really interesting thesis, and I haven't thought about it before, but that honestly makes a lot of sense...? Like, in that Really Uncomfortable Speech that was given before Ruben died, he was blamed for wasting a season on him. Which is an extremely meta/IH thing. It makes no sense for Fig to say that. But it does make sense for Emily to say that.

[mazeyphaedra]

Ep 19 is so conflicting for me because it was fun but even giving it all a little bit of thought it’s really just 😬. Like yeah y’all really just did that. And that. And that. Okay. It’s just kind of sad in so many ways once you start to think about it all. For both the RGs and the BKs if that makes sense? It’s obvious with the Rat Grinders but Like the bad kids really think they’ve beat Porter’s game but this episode kind of proves that they’re worse than they used to be. That everything Porter and Jace and the RGs did DID affect them and when it comes down to it they didn’t have to do much to get them there beyond annoying them. I feel like in the end they’re becoming the versions of themselves that the Rat Grinders hated. Like okay you’re popular. You can fucking decimate anyone you choose to. But do you actually care about the people around you anymore? Or is it just being adored and showing the only people that dislike you in basically the entire school up?

ooouughhh anon im being so real w u this can be its own post. i had drafted a whole response but that was about pc choices i was kinda horrified by but then i had a talk w a friend that put things into perspective for me so i just decided to share part of my side from that convo:

which i guess segues me into ur last two qs: the bad kids were in their own way caring abt the ppl around them!! (im being so gracious rn. i think, tho they were reacting in defense of mazey, that they way they treated ivy was awful.) in even just the pc Hero thing of Saving The Town like that counts as caring right.

as for showing the only people that dislike you in basically the entire school up. i dont think this is the case actually bc (and many other ppl have said this more eloquently) the rat grinders are not on the bad kids' radar! like at all. they simply dont register. like to me they feel like the people at school u forget about when u graduate.

ive also not been here the whole time so the 'this was always going to happen. [all of our beloved story beats have not been resolved in a satisfying manner] since the beginning' thing is made more disappointing for me. but i still love this season and if i detach the part of myself that enjoys the story over the game for just long enough i can ooh and aah over bad kid badassery for an untold number of hours

[solecize]

le printemps

𝐒𝐔𝐌𝐌𝐀𝐑𝐘. a conversation. high school graduation is coming up and the future is looking uncertain for you and donghyuck. 𝐏𝐀𝐈𝐑𝐈𝐍𝐆. donghyuck x reader 𝐖𝐀𝐑𝐍𝐈𝐍𝐆𝐒. mature language, recreational marijuana use, mentions of underage drinking 𝐖𝐎𝐑𝐃 𝐂𝐎𝐔𝐍𝐓. 2.5k 𝐍𝐎𝐓𝐄𝐒. just some stuff i needed to hear and some stuff i’m sure someone out there needs to here too? also lmao not proofread as per usual

spring was the season of new beginnings. there was a feeling of hope floating through the air, a feeling of quiet excitement for what was to come. long gone were the days of your footprints imprinted on layers of frost upon the sidewalk and the taste of hot cocoa everyday after school. the warmer weather called for cooler drinks. flowers began to bloom beautifully from the ground—and now, it was your turn.

you were excited for whatever was going to happen in your life within the next few months. never more than now were you ready to let go of the past few years in the same school, passing by the same faces in the halls, and skipping the same teachers’ classes. well, perhaps not so much so when it came to the last part: you found yourself taking a “detour” out of the cafeteria with your boyfriend hyuck after lunch, only to never come back for your next class.

lee donghyuck was that guy. he was the class clown with a headstrong attitude that everyone loved and admittedly, that included you. it started last year, when he transferred in from across the country. with his infectious charms and smile, you were drawn in almost immediately. he was in your classes and hung around the same group of friends, always teasing you in flirtatious ways and doing nice things for you without any reason from the beginning. the two of you started dating after you boldly confessed to him at a house party, albeit after having a few drinks, and the rest was history.

“there’s like two weeks of school left, what’s mr. kim gonna do? fail you?” donghyuck chuckled, as the two of you dashed out the back exit of the gymnasium.

sure, he was a bad influence at times. your parents warned you themselves on the matter after meeting them for the first time, but you didn’t mind. donghyuck was exactly what you needed at times, letting you get a taste of the “wilder” side of life. late night sneaking out of your bedroom window, trying new food, taking up new hobbies together, the works. he was the little nudge you needed to enjoy life at times. 

you scrunched your nose up at him. “hey, i have to leave a good impression on him before i leave!” the two of you found yourselves outside and with hyuck gently gripping your hand as he led the way, you knew exactly where he was headed. 

“look at these bad kids go!” hollered a familiar voice and your head snapped to your left, where you saw his friends jeno, jaemin, and renjun whistling at the two of you. donghyuck only grinned at them, mouthing words that you could only guess were ones of threats in case they decided to rat the two of you out. the other three hooligans continued teasing from a distance, as they made their own way back inside the building.

the soft breeze blew against his slightly unbuttoned uniform shirt and against your skirt, causing it to slightly lift. donghyuck immediately pushed it down when he saw that, while continuing to lead the way down the street. his light brown hair shone bewitchingly underneath the sunlight and your eyes trailed down to his mouth. the male had a permanent smile attached to his lips when he was with you, unlike his usual playful smirk or the scowl that he wore whilst in school.

there was not a trace of surprise in you when you two ended up at the place dubbed as your and hyuck’s rooftop. not the man who owned the barbershop below’s rooftop, but it belonged to the two of you. just a block or two away from your school, you only felt like it was right to claim the rooftop as your own after the two of you shared your first kiss here. after the time you ran out here after failing your math test—donghyuck trailing right after you—and throwing up all over the concrete. after all the countless memories spent here without getting caught, you felt that the carving with the two of your names validated your ownership.

“there really is just two weeks left, huh. . .” you trailed off, letting the thought sink it.

the end of the school year had a different vibe. every student felt the weight of final exams or simply relieved at the thought of finally getting out for a two month or so vacation period. plans for the break were made, ranging from going out with friends or even more lessons to drown in during what was intended to be time away from school. the constant between all points on the spectrum was the anticipation. like the spring time, there was a feeling of hope. however, between the graduating upperclassmen, some of them knew they were faking it.

“everyone thinks they’re going to be alright and they keep saying it over and over again because they think if they do, it’ll come true,” donghyuck explained. “almost of all of us don’t know what the hell we’re doing now, why would we know shit about what we’re going to do after the cap and gown?”

you leaned against the edge of the rooftop, elbows propped up, while hyuck stood behind you with his arms wrapped around your waist. 

you replied, “do you know what you’re doing?” it was a dumb question, you realized that when he immediately laughed, but you wanted to hear what he was going to say.

“hell no. otherwise, i’d be going straight to school like everyone else.” he’d been clear on his plan to take a gap year and spend his time travelling and working, all while giving himself more time to think about exactly what the hell was the direction he was planning to go.

“you think you’re going to be alright?”

donghyuck slowly tore his arms away from your body and by the shuffling of his backpack, he was probably searching for his grinder and rolling papers.  “eventually, yeah.” 

you already knew, since from the moment that you two met, it seemed like he had a craving to be high all the time. that was just him, typical rebellious hyuck. you’d experimented with your friends before meeting him and after becoming a couple, you didn’t mind the free weed. it made conversations far more interesting.

“do you?”

the question caused an unsettling knot to form at the bottom of your stomach. you wanted to say something optimistic, but trying to force it out of your throat tasted bitter. you weren’t sure at all. biting your tongue, you simply shrugged in response. 

“i mean, you’re going to a good school and everything. you’re pretty set,” he pointed out from behind you.

you said, “but everything’s moving so fast that i don’t know if i’m doing the right things or doing what i really want to do. i feel like i’m making decisions on the fast lane with half open eyes.” it was a confession that you’d iterated over and over again to your friends and sometimes your parents, though the latter would never quite understand what you were getting it. it was always you being overdramatic about your perfectly fine future or that you were—

“—thinking too much about it. the fastlane is always the best ride, isn’t it?” 

there was a part of you that wanted to listen to hyuck and what he was saying, but everything felt so conflicting. you had hope for your future, yet thinking about it made your insides flip and turn at every possible outcome. taking a glance back at donghyuck, you saw it in him, too. he said he was going to “eventually” be alright, but even though he wouldn’t admit it, there was a mutual feeling of anxiety.

his eyes softened when they met yours and he gave you a small smile. “princess, you’ll be okay. you damn well know how bright  you are and you have a plan.” 

you hated being that person who rambled on and on, dumping all of their worries onto another person. you much preferred to keep anything inside to refrain from burdening others with your anxieties, but it was different with hyuck. it was comfortable with him. he genuinely listened and cared.

he said, “i can’t see you as anything but successful. i hope you realize that.” hyuck was having a troubling time rolling his joint atop his accounting textbook, which made you chuckle a bit. “you’ve worked too hard these past few years. have you seen the way you stay up late to finish your work? sure, you don’t start until the very last minute, but you put a hell lot of effort into your stuff.” you snorted at his mention of your procrastination, as honest as ever.

you responded, “alright.” looking out past the buildings was the skyline of the city, seemingly limitless. “and i know you’re worried, too. you just won’t say it aloud, hyuck.”

he made a noise of lax, sounding like an “ehh. . . .” as if he wanted to argue, but didn’t open his mouth to actually do so.

“it’ll work out for you,” you attempted to convince.

there was the drawing of a long sigh. “fine. i feel like i have no answers to what i’m doing right now. every choice i make scares me now.” donghyuck paused, looking at the ground. “but, i don’t want to feel like i’m going to regret anything, you know?”

you turned around and your back was now facing the edge of the rooftop. he finished rolling the joint, licking it close and his eyes were on yours as he did so. they were piercing. above the two of you,  the velvet clouds crawled across the sky. you embraced the faint scent of street food being fried on the sidewalk and marijuana and as donghyuck edged closer, the smell of musk and rosewood. it was exactly what you wanted to remember when you looked back on these memories as a future you.

“and spending too much time about your possible regrets is something you’ll regret in the future.” you grinned at his stunned expression, which transitioned into a mirror of yours when he processed what you said. 

“you get it,” he breathed, snaking his arms around your waist once again, but this time, his face was inches away from yours. “i know i shouldn’t have asked you earlier. .  .but i want you to know that you’ll be alright.”

all you could do was nod in silence, losing yourself in his eyes. just like the first time. they shone and he tightened his grip around your waist, as he closed the distance between the two of you. it was sweet and soft, full of comfort. the two of you remained like that for what seemed like forever.

there was nothing that made you feel warm inside like the way hyuck kissed you.

the moment, unfortunately, came to an end. a loud bang could be heard from below and the two of you jumped, thinking that someone was about to climb up the stairs and catch you on private property. donghyuck took the initiative to peek from behind the pillar blocking your view of the staircase.

“just a raccoon,” he announced, chuckling a little bit. hyuck began walking back towards you, the joint still in between his right index and middle fingers.

you felt a lift of relief—this was not going to be a good day to be caught trespassing and skipping class.

donghyuck shoved his hand inside his pants pocket and pulled out a lighter, pointing it your direction. “m’lady, would you care to do the honours?” in no universe would you ever be able to resist his cheeky little grin and rolling your eyes, you snatched the lighter out of his hand and clicked it. he held out the joint and you let the tip burn.

“hey?” you said all of a sudden and hyuck looked at you inquisitively. “one more question.”

he shrugged. “yeah, shoot.” the male pulled the joint away from the flame and brought it up to his lips first, inhaling from the other end.

something about the question made you feel silly, just like the first one did, but you didn’t mind in front of him. “do you think we are going to be okay?”

at that, an uncomfortable kind of silence developed. you only found it so at the way hyuck scrunched his eyebrows together, clearly trying to string together a response, but the only words that managed to come out were “well . . .” 

“did you have plans to break up after graduation?” you blunted, folding your arms around your chest and leaning back on the edge. “be honest, i won’t be upset.”

“of course not!” donghyuck scoffed, smoke coming from his mouth as he spoke. “when i said i wanted to stick it out with you a year ago, i meant that.”

he passed the joint to you after that. you didn’t hesitate bringing it up to your lips, letting the feeling overtake your being. the question even plagued you at times, wondering if it was worth it to continue a seemingly temporary high school relationship past what was supposed to be the expiry date. with donghyuck, it didn’t feel right to just give up because of what everyone else said. 

you simply replied, “okay.” and you believed your boyfriend. over the period of time that the two of you dated, his friends often remarked that they’d never seen him so serious about a girl until you. you saw the way the panic emerged in his muscles after your question. 

“you’re being too serious. don’t be.” hyuck insisted, cupping your cheek, and you wished that you held as much assurance in yourself that he did.

“i’m just scared.” you shook your head, looking out again past the city skyline. everything seemed so much smaller from up at that rooftop, but you knew that once you were out those doors with your cap and gown, you were going to feel as tiny as an ant in the real world.

winter was just as beautiful of a season as spring. the season of spring was one of new beginnings, but that also meant new endings. looking at hyuck, you didn’t want him to be a page you had to turn over to move on. it was stupid, it was reckless, it was what young people did. it was love. fake hope repeated over and over again in the head to make themselves believe that it were to come true.

donghyuck ran his fingers through his hair. “no matter what happens, i’m going to be here. i know i can tell you all day that your future is going to be fine, but i show you at any waking second that i’m at your side.” 

the two of you spend the rest of your time finishing the joint, talking, giggling about how jeno ruined the last lacrosse game of the school year by hijacking it as the mascot, and eating potato chips that hyuck brought. you fell asleep for half an hour on his lap. he gave you a piggyback ride home in the wrong direction. everything seemed alright, like you’d been worried about, but that was all for now. your love for hyuck was now, just as you realized you should have focused on.

[velvetvexations]

Re: Aabria. I agree. And also, I've never in my life felt worse for a creator than I did watching Aabria try and fail to get her players to consider The First Stoats as nuanced characters in that one AP. It ruined the season for me. I feel like she had such cool ambitious ideas around politics and morality and the players (although I feel like Erika and Jasper were game if they had had more support) just didn't bite

Yeah all of Last Bast was fucking crazy.

There's nothing wrong from a friends-at-the-table perspective with Brennan's style of DMing where it feels like the number one goal is to maximize the Fun meter, but Aabria's DMing seems more focused on challenging the players from a storytelling perspective, and one of those styles is much more fun to watch unless the parasocial has consumed you so thoroughly that the heroes getting the hi-score at Dungeons & Dragoning is all you care about as well. Which is like, most of this fandom.

But even saying that, Brennan's campaigns are usually amazing even from the perspective of the audience. I think the reason it went so wrong here is that he was trying really hard to make this season focus on a lot of real world issues and providing opportunities to explore them but the Intrepid Heroes remained solidly goal-oriented.

Like, maybe I'm being biased because my own parasocial with BLeeM specifically is very deep and I'm just throwing everyone else under the bus, but I do truly believe he always meant the Rat Grinders to be sympathetic, because like:

"She's not a bad kid."

Eugenia emphasizing Kipperlilly and Riz are not too different

literally what would be the point to Henry even being Ruben's uncle otherwise? like, at best he was maybe a brief red herring when Gorgug found out he was the one who made Grix, but that was like, immediately dropped and never brought up again

Kipperlilly having "a tremendous fondness" for Lucy (again, why did that even come up otherwise?)

But the IHs just did not give a fuck and Brennan's inclination is to just roll with whatever vibe they're riding.

[kipperlillyforpresident]

Despite not really caring about The Rat Grinders, I've felt very appreciative of all the meta coming from Rat Grinders fans. I feel like they've pointed out some core problems with how this season unfolded narratively and thematically. However, I'll admit that I'm starting to notice my least favorite D20 discourse trend emerging within that meta. Blame the players, especially the non-cis male players, for everything that went wrong and shield precious Brennan from anything even resembling criticism. Brennan's the DM, he asserts more control over the tone and narrative of what's happening at the table than anyone else. Arguably, setting the tone is one of his jobs. And there are more concrete examples too. Emily made the point, both in and out of game, that she tried pretty hard to engage with Ruben on a deeper level (with some very good roles) and just got nowhere with it. I know some people have been acknowledging that. But I still feel that uncomfortable undercurrent of Brennan as "fandom's perfect straight white cis man" developing in some of the criticism, especially in the claims that he intended the Bad Kids to save the Rat Grinders, and the IH just didn't pick up on it. I love Brennan, I'm not saying I want the fandom to turn on him, but I feel like this trend in the fandom of blaming the non-male players first, the male players second, and Brennan absolutely last, is far more troubling than anything that's happening on screen

You're definitely picking up on a Fandom Problem, anon. And it does suck! That isn't to say that the non-male players shouldn't be criticized - they're professionals just like anybody else. But it is, hm... definitely muddying the waters.

I do agree that in general, the fandom refuses to acknowledge Brennan isn't perfect. As I outlined in this ask, I do think a lot of the Problems with this episode were because of Brennan failing as a DM.

Emily not getting any payoff for the Ruben thing is something I honestly don't know how to feel about, though. Because on the one hand... it sucks that she spent so much downtime and got nothing in return. On the other hand... I just think the Wanda Childa plan was bad from the start? This post by @rubenhopclap outlines why, if you're curious.

I guess I wish Brennan had done something to swerve the Wanda Childa plotline into something which could actually have a pay off. But also, well... you can lead a horse to water, I suppose.

Thanks for the ask!