#and aegon just killed her bc he was a mean villain

[lemonhemlock]

What themes George used with Rhaenyra and Aegon in the book?

the main theme for both of them, like in most of FB, is kingship, so what makes a "good" king/queen, what is power in the first place, how do you receive it, how to wield it etc. add to that the theme of hubris - house targaryen cannibalizing itself and sowing the seeds for its future destruction. and, also, the theme that follows through the entirety of the series - corruption - power as a means to its own ends, not for the betterment of society - “why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones?”

when asked the question put to shireen, "who would you prefer, aegon or rhaenyra?", you should be going "oh, well, on the one hand this, on the other hand that" and it should lead to a debate on political structures and how societies are organized and how laws are enacted in society and what is the nature of law anyway etc. instead the show turned it into "rhaenyra obviously bc aegon is a literal danger to society".

so when people say that aegon should be even darker bc this is game of thrones and everyone is mean and dark and awful so stop being a crybaby about it, like, ok, but there is a limit as to how far you can push this without sacrificing the balance of this story.

bc this is not the kind of story in which maegor reborn kills saint rhaenyra and does her this great injustice of erasing her queenship from the history books. not that it's a moralistic children's tale either, but, if the lopsidedness between them would have skewed so much in rhaenyra's favour, she would have received a more heroic death or died on her own terms at least

[fuzzyunicorn]

I also sit this fuckin’ close when anything medieval is on the teleie

[gojuo]

Condal had to whitewash Aemond's entire character, give him traits from others, and make Aegon look cartoonishly incompetent and pathetic so he could live out his childhood dreams in his self insert

imma need to keep it real with you i dont think condal even likes aemond bc what he made him do this ep was unforgiveable and unjustifiable and locals are turning on his ass. i just think he believes tearing down the greens' love and loyalty to the family (and giving that aspect to rhaenyra's) is essential to his quest of making the greens the unequivocal villains of the dance.

i mean, that love and loyalty the greens all held towards their little family was /their/ redeeming quality, whilst team black was betraying each other left and right (daemon betrays rhaenyra, rhaenyra betrays laenor, corlys betrays rhaenys, ulf and hugh betray rhaenyra, rhaenyra betrays addam and nettles, corlys betrays rhaenyra, rhaenyra betrays rosby and stokeworth and they betray her right back, lord mooton betrays her which in turn makes daemon betray her again, the people of king's landing betray rhaenyra, syrax betrays her, and the entire dragonstone garrison betrays her too).

instead of giving aemond a compelling character arc where he's driven mad and manic by guilt towards what his actions caused the family (he was the one that killed luke and so kickstarted the war and b&c after all), ryan condal made him a psychopathic cold blooded murderer that gives 0 fucks about his family. like, not even daemon tried to kill his own brother no matter how much he wanted the throne 💀

[aryas-faces]

1) thanks

2) yes, and i interpret it in this way. him comparing book aegon with show aegon, also bc show aegon for me can hardly be see as a villain. to me it only seems as a child who grows un in a cold environment (he kinda fucked up with dyana, tom made a beautiful interview where he said that aegon didn't think that his family loves him, so the only love he can have is the one he takes)

3) i didn't remember, sorry

4) if u mean kill, i think she's reluctant in part because of her religion and in part bc killing her would have been a very hard task. bc you can't just kill rhaenyra, you had to kill her, daemon, all of their children (baela and rhaena included) which mean war with house velaryon. and aegon would have seen as a maegor 2.0, especially if you take into account that at that moment rhaenyra was pregnant. my point is that alicent always put her wish above aegon's (and his safety) , since she put that enormous burden right above him, she should have at least the decency of preparing him. but she didn't worry of that, cause she wanted to rule through him

1) You’re welcome!

2) I mean, that’s just not how interpret it. Aegon was definitely portrayed as a villain in season 1: he bullies Aemond, he assaults Dyana and possibly raped her, he went to child fighting pits, he is portrayed without a single good trait. He’s written very one note in season 1 vs season 2 where, while not perfect, is a lot closer to his book counterpart. And I don’t think George would phrase it as the actor bringing Aegon alive in ways not seen before if he meant in contrast to the book so we may just have to agree to disagree on this point

3) 👍 its fine!

4) I do agree that Alicent favors ambition over all and killing Rhaenyra would be hard. I just don’t see her as evil though and think she’s in a very tricky situation because if she does nothing, she’s as good as sentencing her children to death. Even if you believe Rhaenyra wouldn’t put them to the sword to secure her claim, Daemon definitely would. There’s no situation where Aemond, Helaena, Daeron, and especially Aegon are completely safe, so going with the route where you have allies of other powerful houses AND get the power you want is the best route

[sherlokiness]

JD foreshadowings are sexual, not romantic and I think they will have a sexual relationship but I just cannot see Jon being into her

Hi, anon! Thanks for the ask.

I do agree with you that's why I subscribe to PoliticalJon. I'm also thinking about one eye Jon clues and how it might relate to jonsa and aegony cause the only Jon who could possibly fall in love with Dany is a blind Jon. If I thought Dany was a hero then yes, I think Jon would sincerely fall for her bc what's not to love, right?

The catch is that Jon will voluntarily "blind" himself for love of Sansa so he could look at Dany with love which is what PolJon is. A blind Jon whose thoughts and actions seem consistent but irrational to those who are around him. An example of this is when Dany gave a dragon to the slave masters and Jorah and Co. couldn't believe how she could do that. It's simply not worth it! The audience was also tricked into believing it until the veil was revealed. Dany used tricks and deception to get herself an army then killed the masters. Nobody cared they died bc they were monsters and Dany was even hailed as a hero. What a freaking nice coincidence that Dany went there to buy slaves she couldn't afford and gained a slave army for free. She got to have the moral high ground and the army she sought to buy. She got to have her cake and eat it too.

I'm expecting Jon's true thoughts on Dany will be concealed by the author once he decides to be blind. Jon goes to Dany for her armies and dragons and in the process falls for her. There's Dany who was just spurned by Aegon for love of Arianne and hated by the people of KL all the while thinking her last treason is over. What a freaking nice coincidence that JD falling for each other gets what they need from each other. Dany gets the love she's denied while Jon gets the armies he initially sought.

Not to be a conspiracy theorist but this is what I'm imagining GRRM gave the hints to D&D. Like JD will have sex because of love but he didn't say for love of who? This is also why the show had JD break up and not marry bc of "incest" which is a forced and nonsensical reason bc no way in Planetos will Jon see having a relationship with his aunt as incest. It's not taboo in their world, rare but not forbidden. So in the books after RLJ, what will stop Jon from marrying his lover/auntie if he's not icked by supposed incest? Because he loves another.

To play Devil's advocate and in defense of Dark Dany, how could Jon still fall for her?

1) Jon seeing through Sansa's eyes mean he will be as blind as AGoT Sansa who fell in love with Joffrey even though he had red flags.He fell in love with a beautiful Queen who saved him and ignored her occasional lapses. Sansa paid that trust with Ned's head and Jon will pay with the people of King's Landing. Sansa was only 11 but what's Jon's excuse?🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️

2) Jon truly falling for a villain Dany would make him dumb as fuck but Dany is not without her merits. If sweet and perfect baby Brienne can fall for someone like Jaime, why can't Jon fall for a monster like Dany? Maybe the bad things he heard about her are all just rumors and she had good reason to do them. He would know how rumors could get twisted.

3) Maybe the aegonys are right that the foreshadowings are romantic. They're negative which can be interpreted as them ending doomed but the romance is there. The wolf howling scene could also be interpreted in a way that Jon is begging her to stop but Dany's greed for the Iron Throne doesn't lessen which eventually leads to her death.

4) GRRM isn't that unconventional with tropes. There's the bastard/secret king trope, exiled princess,puppet boy king, and the pimp getting killed by a prostitute, etc. I think jonsas shouldn't be dismissive of tropes because our ship, in essence, is the tropiest of them all. It's a princess in a tower who marries the hero(her hero)who slayed the dragon and they lived "happily" ever after. Aegony ship is basic but there's the incest twist ig?

5) Jon comes back darker and doesn't care that much about the realm so he hooks up with a pyro Dany. Yolo basically. Why should he care about the opinions of others after being backstabbed by his brothers and sacrificing his honor for the realm?

6) Dany being lovers with Jon imo is the only way for the author to expose Dany's hypocrisy and greed for power. Dany will not give up the throne for love nor duty to Jon-her lover and righful King. I suspect Daario will be like Jorah, a scumbag who will sincerely fall for Dany, but she will leave him and the readers would justify it. Who cares? Well, once she usurps Jon, all her previous claims about giving up the crown for love will be shit. Words are wind.

[horizon-verizon]

https://www.tumblr.com/thephantomcasebook/716821484228706304/dyana-returning-for-s2-and-possibly-being-involved?source=share I would like to read your thoughts on this post. Is it true that viserys ii put a taboo on the name of her parents? Besides Luke was sending as a messenger, Aemond was not to kill him, and Luke's dragon had no chance against Aemond's dragon. And in what part does Martin establish that blacks are the villains?

*EDITED POST* 10/23/23

I'm just going to be rude (not targeting you, though). Everything this user says, ignore it, it's bullshit. Not just in this post, I mean, everything.

For how Aegon III and Viserys II, why didn't declare Rhaenyra to be a legitimate monarch to be historically called "Rhaenyra I" (despite the multiple times she's called "Queen" or "the queen" in Fire and Blood-vol 1, esp after she takes KL), look to this POST. There was no damn "taboo", this is a gross exaggeration, no, a LIE about the situation. Possibly a self-delusion born from an inability to use deductive reasoning.

Being a villain or antagonist is a position that doesn't change, and I'm not referring to plot twists...twists does not shake off the reality of a smart villain or antagonists working against the protagonist or MCs in the shadows. All villains are antagonists, not all antagonists are morally bankrupt or "too far gone" like a villain.

First, protagonist =/= "good person". It just means "who's fighting for something against them/who is this story about". The antagonist(s) is the force/figures set against the protagonist, and thus they do not have to be "good" nor "bad". However, the Dance's protagonist is Rhaenyra. It is written about her rise, endurance, and fall.

Second, while a character can be dark, turn dark, or be an anti-hero, for a writer to try to actually make THE protagonist THE villain or the antagonist, the actual antagonist would have to also become the protagonist and the entire story will have become entirely different in themes, etc. Thus, you cannot establish the greens as protagonists or the "good guys" bc they are neither the winner, the person in the morally superior position, NOR who the Dance of the Dragons is about or whose struggle the Dance narrates.

The villains AND antagonists of the Dance are the greens. While the blacks have members who are not good people (classist, misogynist, etc.), they are leagues better than the greens and are meant to be their foils where one highlights the other's qualities to reveal the differing qualities between them. An example is how Daemon, while having beaten an adult messenger, AEMOND is the one to kill a young boy acting as an envoy who never reached Westerosi majority (16) because he felt like it. The same boy also happened to be Aemond's nephew, which includes kin slaying, something Daemon didn't do until Lucerys was murdered.

Even though I am sure Daemon would have no trouble killing Aemond and the rest of his green Targ family if he could get away with it before any green tried for him and Rhaenyra or their own, the point I am making is that the greens are misogynist, classist, etc x100. And they (aside from Jaehaerys I, he's long term and Viserys I, he made many stupid decisions for his daughter) short term caused the Dance.

Finally, yes, Lucerys had absolutely no chance of surviving Vhagar nor Aemond, since:

Aemond has a deep grudge not just about the eye, but bc he sincerely believed that the Velaryon boys had no right over him to the throne and thinks them inherently lesser, so their being heirs and ahead of him in the succession line troubles his identity/aristocratic masculinity -> this fueled him to pursue Luke when he absolutely didn't have to, and to the detriment and horror of Alicent/Otto/the green cause

Vhagar is the biggest living dragon at this point in time and is battle-hardened/experienced

Luke went out expecting to be safe bc his envoy/status, so he was totally unprepared

Luke was 14 when he did and didn;t seem trained in fighting w/a dragon -- unprepared

This wasn't a fight, it was an execution.

[patrocles]

If you’re still looking for topics of discussion, how do you envisage Alys and Aemond’s relationship? Also considering book vs show taking into account of what we’ve seen in s1 so far regarding Aemond’s character and the writing in general? Would love to hear your thoughts.

WOULD LOVE TO DISCUSS THIS (i’m on mobile for apologize for incoherency)

So my ideas about where Alys and Aemond’s relationship will go is largely rooted in what’s been established with Aemond’s character thus far, less about the book canon aside from broadstroke plot beats. The idea of show!Aemond just taking a woman as a bedmate would be pretty inconsistent with the guy we know who prides himself on Not being a depraved piece of shit like Aegon.

I think that leaves a pretty fair opening for his and Alys’ dynamic to work more like a slowburn?

There of course are the immediate logistics of how they meet, will show!Aemond slaughter all of House Strong. I think a lot of it would depend on how Aemond changes after Storm’s End. I can personally see him leaning into his new role as a feared kinslayer instead of pleading his case that Luke’s death was an accident. Not leaning into it necessarily because it makes him look Cool, but there being no real point in trying to change the narrative once the stain has been set and war is happening anyways.

Very James Flint “Everyone’s a villain to someone. Since you are so convinced that I am yours, I will be it.” core

However, I do think its something that will still weigh on him over the seasons the further the war goes on and the more war crimes he ends up committing. A tragic form of Committing to the Bit. I think also we’ll see Aemond struggle with his relationship with his family, especially Alicent. What we’ve seen in the show is Aemond being the Dependable child, the one Alicent can really rely on, and in turn she’s been the family member that he’s closest to. So after Storm’s End, if that relationship is fractured, I can really see Aemond working incredibly hard to regain that status as The Reliable One, and really carrying the weight of responsability to win the war he thinks he started. The irony is that committing so hard to this would effectively damn him even more than just Luke’s death and force him to really commit reprehensible actions, all in the name of saving his family after KL is taken.

NOW ENTER ALYS. (mind you this is all what i personally find narratively interesting)

Let me just first say that I absolutely hate the Femme Fatale Sexy Seductress trope that people seem to apply to her.

I think the Alys that we meet is just a woman who has a bad reputation because of the way the men have failed her in her life. I would really love for the show to explore why it meant for Alys to be Lyonel’s bastard, abandoned at Harrenhal. The fact that she’s a servant and a wet nurse specifically means that she was in some capacity, not protected by her father and brothers, as well as the other relatives still at Harrenhal. One would have to wonder just how bad she would actually feel if Aemond were to kill some of them.

I can also see Alys leaning to her Old Gods faith for a sense of comfort and perhaps was a sort of healer (hence why people thought she was a witch). Like Aemond, if people already have this impression of her, what’s the point in changing the narrative especially if her reputation was already tarnished with a pregnancy. And perhaps there’s a degree of safety in people thinking she’s a creepy weird witch, they (men) wont fuck with her. (Like maybe she did have a child that died in infancy bc The Times and people thought that she sacrificed it to the Old Gods, which is like incredibly sad to think about? But would add to the Witchy reputation)

So Aemond and Alys together, I think it’s a dynamic that has to be fleshed out on an emotional level for it to really work, given the nature of confusion in Fire and Blood with people thinking she bewitched Aemond. Of course being a prince, it wouldn’t be insane for him to take a woman of the castle he took, but for him to MARRY her? While being betrothed to a Baratheon?? It’s just not something that the pragmatic Aemond we’ve seen would just do on a whim.

I think there would be a whole thing of like Being Seen by the one person in the entire world who could possibly ever understand you. And that would be Aemond and Alys to each other. It’s compelling to ME because they are as different as could possibly be, a Targaryen prince and a riverlander wet nurse, and yet they manage to find a kindredness in loneliness, feeling isolated from their families, and carrying the weight of being misunderstood by everyone.

And maybe they confess their burdens to each other and actually feel heard for the first time in their lives. I think it would be an act of making themselves equal to each other (which would be an interesting contrast to Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship) (Aemond letting Alys take off his eye patch you will see my climbing the walls and eating the plaster)

So falling in love would require a conscious act of choice; Aemond choosing Alys and committing to her. Fighting this war and doing what needs to be done to win it, even if it means further condemning himself morally, But keeping Alys because it’s the only thing he’s ever gotten to have for just himself, save for Vhagar.

So people took what Ewan said about Aemond knowing that he’s going to die as proof? That Alys would be cut from the show?? A wild stretch but I think him knowing that this war will end with his death in some capacity really contextualizes why he chooses Alys— if he knows he won’t make it long enough to fufill his oath to the Baratheons, why not embrace what he has with Alys now. But where Aemond get fucked up a bit, is getting this Grand Love he’s always craved, and now a child! But the tragedy of knowing that he can’t have it. I think he knows what it would mean to fight Daemon, that he would die to do it as he’a the biggest threat to not only his family in KL, but now Alys and their child. And there would be struggle there, there would be Aemond’s heart in conflict, “Love is the death of duty”, etc. But the longer he puts it off to have Alys just one more day, the more he knows she would never truly be safe. So again, another act of kinslaying for a kinslayer, to protect them all.

And maybe Alys saw it too, and begged him not to go. He promised to show her Oldtown after all this was over, what things she could learn there! A place for a child to grow up safe and happy, away from all this. But instead she watches him fly off to his doom.

And the Witch Queen of Harrenhal is born from her loss. Her bitterness and grief and fury turning her into a vengeful person. A self fulfilling prophecy in a way, she wasn’t a witch before, now she’ll curse them all for taking Aemond from her. The end of the Dance saw only a handful of survivors, but is this living? It ties into the overall theme of just how pointless the war was, how nothing came of it except trauma and grief. And Alys’ blood oath to avenge Aemond’s death (I’m not saying she placed a placed a curse on the surviving Targaryens, but look at what a fuckin mess the next 170 years was for them)

But like this why whoever plays Alys needs to be a GOOD ACTRESS more than anything, I don’t care if Katie McGrath fits her (fanon) interpretation aesthetically because of a character she played ten years ago. Alys’ actress needs to be able to carry weighty scenes with Ewan like this is a Mom Certified 90s Romance Epic like the English Patient or something. I’m talking micro expressions, I’m talking unmatched chemistry, when I see her witness Aemond fall over the God’s Eye I want a blood curdling shriek that will stay with me for years (very much Abbie Cornish at the end of Bright Star). I WANT GOOD PERFORMANCES

anyways these are my thoughts

[princesssszzzz]

I don't think they'd sacrifice Rhaenys or Jace's deaths just to give Daemon a villain moment though. Those characters die in very dramatic ways; in Rhaenys' case her death is practically half the characterisation we are given about her in the book and the only thing she gets to do in the war. If they want Daemon to do something terrible then he could be responsible for blood and cheese.

Before the show came out I would agree. After S1, they maybe would be willing to do that but who knows. I think Condal really wants to smack people over the head to show he’s a bad guy because he’s always getting defended. He was so annoyed by the reaction to the finale he might just add something crazy just to spite black stans. I don't have strong opinions about Daemon so I don’t care who he kills generally, I could just see why they would want him to kill Jace and have Jace's death be like the red wedding and he’s taken out by his own team member. They messed up by keeping Laenor alive bc at this point Daemon hasn’t done anything to show he’s willing to do whatever it takes to get what he wants. It’s all talk with him so far. He’s also been written as a solider for team black’s cause instead of his own. I don’t think Rhaenyra and Daemon want the same thing but as of right now they can benefit working together. He’s gonna kill greens and his emotions about his brother’s death will die down but the rest of the dance there’s no way his entire story is just wanting to kill Aemond. I think GRRM names him Rouge Prince because he’s supposed to go rouge instead of being a loyal soldier, especially for someone else’s kid to be king. If Ryan and Sara just want people to hate Daemon and not root for him, killing Jace would mean more than greens. He’s killing characters like Vaemond, random servant dude, Aegon’s kid no one really cares about them or will remember them by the time the show ends (the general audience it’s only the fandom that goes hard for fictional deaths) I really just see Alicent’s line dying off as a side quest for Daemon he hates them so much 😂😂 but the real mission here and importance is House Targaryen, the bloodline, and dragons and Jace gets in the way of that.

Aegon’s son dying is less about Daemon and more about Aegon’s motivations. That’s even the same for House Velaryon because they’re starting off with saying yeah we don’t care about Harwin’s sons being here but of course we’ll end off with a real Velaryon taking over Driftmark. I hope Rhaenys is done justice they already fucked her over 🙏 Anon if your team black brace yourself because the showrunners don’t like Daemon

[esther-dot]

What I meant is that by changing T from villain to good guy wipes out the fall out with Jon that is foreshadowed already in AGOT Jon I. Tyrion will probably come with D to demand the submission of the North bc of his marriage with Sansa. Jon will bend the knee bc dragons. DnD tried to show sth similar but failed bc of the shortcuts and bc show Tyriin is a good guy. They sacrificed Jon for T. I can't wait to read about their fallout in the book.

(continuation of this convo)

Ah, I get it now.

That’s what I’ve been wondering too (because of some as yet to be answered asks). If Dany & co show up in the North with the intention of claiming it via marriage with the threat of force implied or outright stated, Jon wouldn’t have a choice but to kneel (assuming he’s KitN) although I think it would be a “we have to fight the Others so we can’t kill each other yet” type of deal. It makes sense that Jon would try to get some influence with Dany in order to protect his family/people because she is right there, with dragons, an imminent threat, hence pol!jon. But I can’t figure out how it’s reasonable for people to be doing much traveling in the North with the snow the way it is. Is your idea that Tyrion and Dany & co are in the South and just announce this and that’s what gets the North to go to war against Dany? Are you thinking a big clash Starks v Dany at the Trident after the Starks defeat the Others and Dany fights Aegon? Or will Jon actually get to have the dragons in the fight against the Others? I feel like there are five or six different scenarios that kinda work but none totally fit for me. As for GoT, if D&D wanted to hide Dark Dany, Tyrion couldn't be a straight up villain, and she couldn’t be a direct threat to the Starks, so this was a no go. They wanted her to go North for the right reasons, even though they also had that "bend the knee" crap that made her so repugnant in s7. You're right that they were weirdly referencing this issue (without committing) because I was struck by the Sansa and Tyrion marriage stuff in s8 which was so strange when they were also saying that Tyrion was in love with D. I talked about that a few months after the finale (link), but I didn't have much to say other than I definitely had the feeling that that "love triangle" (I mean, Tyrion doesn't love Sansa, he just wants her but you know) was being implied. Others have said this, but D&D really should have just told their own story instead of trying to tell a different story with some of the plot points from Martin. What a mess.

Anyway, I really don’t mind the knee bend as long as it’s for the right reasons. Someone pointed to that line about the FF kneeling and standing with daggers in their hands later as evidence that the knee bend might happen before the North rebels against Dany. I’m not sure we will get full satisfaction when it comes to Tyrion, but here’s hoping!

[bellamyblinkingrapidly]

I just read a reddit post from 4 years ago: 

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/?sort=new 

Essentially an idea that... 

1. The Others aren’t pure evil & actually have a reason for rallying and coming South. They are the heroes of their story just as they appear to be the villains to us. 

2. The Starks have a long history with the Others and the Night’s Watch. Somehow their story is tied up in the Night’s King, the first Lord Commanders, The Kings of Winter, and the Kings Beyond the Wall. Their words “Winter is Coming” are derived from this connection, and may not just be a warning of hard times but also a brag of their own such as “Hear Me Roar” or “Growing Strong” 

3. Therefore, the Starks have a large role to play in the conflict with the Others, and that conflict will likely result in diplomacy. 

4. The ultimate resolution will be about restoring balance to the world. Right now, there are extremely long winters and extremely long summers. The seasons are out of whack, and there is some kind of ancient magical reason for this. 

5. Dany is Azor Ahai, and ultimately she will become dark!dany or more of a villain character. 

6. The ice and fire threats are the Others and the dragons/those of dragonblood. But there is also the R’hollo to consider as well as some type of ancient ice god/force. 

7. Jon is the song of ice and fire, and as such he will likely play a large role in negotiations with the Others and potentially Dany. 

8. The wall may have first been built by the children of the forest or the others and not men as it is told in stories. (Generally the legends may be exaggerated and untrue). The Night’s Watch may have been originally an allied Others and First Men group under the Night’s King (human and a Stark probably) and his queen (other). 

9. The Others reasons for rising and attacking may be that some form of the alliance or agreement was broken. It could be the return of Daenerys and dragon/magic, the widespread religion of R’hollo, Summerhall, Aegon’s conquest, or the long night’s return, etc. etc. 

This post and its collective comments were written 4 years ago, so we have much more of the show to add to these original theories. Of course, D&D may have strayed from what GRRM will do, but they know the ultimate ending. It’s safe to assume we are headed toward the general right path. 

There’s speculation that Jon as the balance between ice and fire will become the King at the Wall and take an Other as a bride. Some believe that Val from the books could be this bride or that Ygritte could be raised from the dead to become the bride. Either way, it seems likely if this kind of marriage alliance were endgame, then the bride to be would appear in the show before season 8. It’s also fair to point out that Jon’s marriage to any one - an Other, Dany, even Sansa, would be an imbalance of ice and fire. His blood is equally ice and fire, and any kind of child he would have with another woman would not share that same equalness. 

Some telling things have occurred in the show so far... 

heavy foreshadowing of a Dany/Jon baby & the boatsex scene 

Melisandre interchanging the prince/princess who was promised with Azor Ahai 

R+L=J confirmed 

Bran returning to winterfell as the Three Eyed Raven 

The Night King killing a dragon & resurrecting it for his army 

The Wall coming down via the Night King’s dragon & also the Night King riding a dragon 

lots of hints at a dark!dany plot and “fire and blood” mentality 

building up Jon and Sansa’s relationship and specifically her ability to lead and be a queen/lady 

the remaining Starks returning and reuniting at Winterfell 

the Children of the Forest created the first Other from a First Man with dragon glass to help them in the war against the First Men (or that’s what they told/showed Bran) 

the Children of the Forest helped Bran and the Three-Eyed Raven, while the wights and Others attacked them 

Craster offers baby boys up as sacrifices to the Others and in return they allow him to live peacefully 

Jon becoming Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch by being elected by his men and then becoming King in the North at the request of the northern houses 

Jon believes they need the dragons to defeat the White Walkers 

There has been no attempt at peace or diplomacy 

The White Walkers attacked Hardhome a settlement North of the Wall 

The Night King can see Bran even when he wargs & he can touch him even though he’s the Three-Eyed Raven 

The Night King also seems to have a large interest in Jon 

The Night King and his officers do not seem to be able to burn instead they create frost/cold as they walk 

When a White Walker is killed, all the wights it created are killed as well 

R’hollo is seen as the Lord of Light and in many ways life as well as flames obviously but shadows too. There is another god who may contrast him: Death. These seem to be two popular religions in Essos. While the Seven are still most popular in Westeros (especially by the Andals), and only the First Men, Children of the Forest worship the old gods. 

So... if Jon and Dany have a baby... will it be sacrificed? This would be pretty dark and possibly hard to do believably bc like Jon wouldn’t just hand it over and also why would it be near the war? 

If there is to a marriage alliance, it might make the most sense to join ice and fire - the Night King and Dany. Or to go with the old legends where a Stark married an Other. It may be Sansa who is married off to the Night King. It could also very well be that Jon ends up marrying an Other and becoming the King on the Wall, which would seem fitting. Again, though, this wouldn’t bring a sense of balance in my opinion. I don’t see Dany making it out of season 8 alive, and if she does, I see it as some sort of alliance like this one. 

Perhaps there could also be an ending where Dany is defeated after she probably backs out on the deal with Jon and goes to take down Cersei. I imagine she would burn the Red Keep to the ground and at some point the Iron Throne itself would melt. (Although I always liked the idea of Sansa or Jaime ultimately taking Cersei down...) A deal is made with the Others, and they retreat. A Stark rules in Winterfell as King in the North/The King of Winter, and perhaps the Night’s Watch is abandoned or changed entirely. If it was part of the old treaty, it obviously ended up backfiring. (Also, in this scenario perhaps Sansa and Jon can be together because tbh that’s what I truly want). Maybe there is independence and Westeros becomes Seven Kingdoms who work together again, and this may be led by Tyrion who is a great politician but not a true leader or King of all Seven realms. 

I think that Arya’s fate is the only Stark I am truly worried about... if Jon dies, I know it will be at the pinnacle hero moment which will ultimately make it worth it. He will have died/sacrificed himself because he’s the only one who could do it or something like that. Similarly, if Sansa were to die or be married off to an Other or something similar, I feel it would be her duty and in some way so befitting of a queen to sacrifice for her people. Arya on the other hand, her death would have less plot meaning. I think in general her arc has the least amount of plot meaning and endgame potential, so I worry she will die in battle. I’m sure it would be a lovely scene, but it wouldn’t probably have lasting impacts the same way Jon or Sansa’s (or also Dany’s) would. Bran I don’t think will die because he is the Three-Eyed Raven UNLESS it is important that the Three-Eyed Raven die in order to defeat the Night King/come to an agreement/etc. We still don’t know the full extent of his powers or his purpose yet, so a lot is up in the air for Bran. We just know he’s important. 

I want to add quickly that Melisandre said she has to die in this strange country. I wonder if perhaps there is some of agreement/coupling or something that she as a Red Priestess will be involved in. She obviously still has a part to play, and seeing as I imagine that the second she arrives she’ll be marked for death, she will likely show up at a very pivotal moment. I don’t imagine her just popping in to give Jon some advice at a vision in the flames. It will be more than that and likely it will be magical. 

The teaser of the map where ice and fire meet and almost form some kind of wall or mountain... it has always made me think that perhaps a new wall is formed at the end of this to replace the current wall? 

[trinuviel]

A hero in her own mind... On Daenerys Targaryen (part 6)

This post is a continuation of my thoughts on Daenerys Targaryen’s narrative arc in Game of Thrones. Like the two previous posts, the focus is her season 6 arc, which I’ve had to break up into several separate parts due to length. Season 6 marks a crucial moment in Daenerys’ journey and there are a lot of things to unpack in her season 6 narrative. (Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5)

DAENERYS THE CONQUEROR

In my last post, I talked about Daario’s line to Daenerys about her being a conqueror, not a ruler (s6, ep6) – and I find the distinction between conquering and rule an interesting one in relation to Daenerys, and it is one that crops up more than once in season 6. In the very first episode, this distinction is brought up between Daario Naharis and Jorah Mormont as they search for Daenerys in the lands after she flew away from Meereen on the back of Drogon at the end of season 5:

Daario: Perhaps she’s tired of being Queen. I don’t think she likes it very much.

Jorah: She’s too smart to like it.

Jorah’s answer implies that she’s a good queen because she doesn’t like being one. This fits with the idea that a humble ruler is the paragon for king- or queenship, that the one most suited for rule is the one who doesn’t pursue power. However, there’s a difference between not pursuing power and not liking being a ruler – those two aren’t necessarily the same thing. 

Daenerys didn’t have queenship thrust upon her, she chose to stay in Meereen and rule the city – no one asked her to stay and rule! It was quite a different situation than the one Jon finds himself in at the end of season 6 when he’s publicly acclaimed king by the Northern lords and the Knights of the Vale.

Disliking being queen doesn’t automatically mean that Dany doesn’t like having power. It could also mean that she doesn’t like all the thorny issues and nitty gritty details of actual governance. 

In short, Jorah’s comment can be read several ways. In a Watsonian per-spective, Jorah’s comment is a compliment though he isn’t exactly an unbiased observer. However, if we approach the comment in Doylist terms, it does offer the audience the opportunity to ponder why Daenerys wants to conquer Westeros if she actually doesn’t like to govern? It also begs the question: What exactly is it that Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen enjoys?

The exchange between Daario and Jorah continues:

Daario: I want to see what the world looks like when she’s done conquering it.

Jorah: So do I.

This entire scene moves from commenting on Daenerys’s feelings about governance to her role as a conqueror, signaling the end of her Essosi arc and setting the stage for her upcoming Westerosi arc where she’ll show up as a conqueror.

The exchange between Daario and Jorah as well as Daario’s “Your’re a conqueror Daenerys Stormborn” makes me recall the scene from the first season where the crones of the Dosh Khaleen speaks a prophecy about Daenerys’ unborn son (s1, ep6), which Jorah explains to Viserys:

The Stallion that Mounts the World. The Stallion is the Khal of khals. He’ll unite the people into a single khalasar, all the people of the world will be his herd.

Daenerys’ unborn son Rhaego didn’t survive to be born due to the intervention of Mirri Maz Duur. However, this season Dany kills all the khals by burning them alive in the temple of the Dosh Khaleen, she effectively names herself Khal of khals from the back of her dragon and leads all of the khalasars to Meereen before she finally sets off for Westeros with the Dothraki, her Unsullied and the Greyjoy fleet. Thus, one could make the argument that Daenerys herself became the subject of the prophecy about her son. She became The Dragon that Mounts the World.

As a Targaryen conqueror, Dany has certain parallels with her illustrious ancestor Aegon the Conqueror. Like him, she has three dragons and like him, she comes to conquer Westeros. Unlike her ancestor, the scale of Dany’s conquests are much larger and so are their political and social effects. She completely up-ended the political and economic structures of Slaver’s Bay and those changes will be felt for decades. 

Her exploits bring Alexander the Great to mind. The young man who conquered most of the know world in the 4th century BC. He swept across the world in a blaze of glory that was brief but intense – and the world was never the same again. I see Daenerys is a similar way; she is like the red comet that heralds the dragons – blazing across the world in an inferno of fire and blood. A harbinger of change that she’ll most likely never see herself.

A DARKER PATH

In my last two posts (Part 4, Part 5), I’ve talked about how Daenerys undergoes a symbolic of “rebirth” in the fires of the Dosh Khaleen and that the woman that emerges from the inferno is a much more ruthless woman. The script for episode 9 confirms this:

INT. GREAT PYRAMID - PENTHOUSE - DAY

The sound of the impacts and the distant chaos they cause are audible throughout this scene between DAENERYS TARGARYEN and TYRION LANNISTER, adding further pressure to an already pressurized situation.

Tyrion flinches each time a projectile lands near the pyramid, because he’s human and it’s a natural human reaction.

Dany never flinches. She is not the same woman who flew away from Daznak’s Pit on the back of a dragon. She is changed, changed utterly, a terrible beauty glaring at Tyrion.

This is an incredibly ominous description of Daenerys – not only is it explicity stated that she is utterly changed in a way that is described as “terrible” but it is also, not very subtly, implied that there is now something less human about her!

After the description quoted above, the non-verbal interaction between Dany and Tyrion is described thusly:

BOOM!

Dany watches Tyrion flinching, regarding him as the snake regards the mouse.

Likening Dany to a snake that eyes its prey is an incredibly sinister image. This ominous description of Dany comes right before we get this exchange between the two of them:

Daenerys: Good. Shall we begin?

Tyrion: Do we have a plan?

Daenerys: I will crucify the Masters. I will set their fleet afire, kill every last one of their soldiers, and return their cities to the dirt. That is my plan. (beat) You don’t approve.

Tyrion knows he must tread carefully here.

Tyrion: You once told me you knew what your father was.

BOOM!

Tyrion: Did you know his plans for King's Landing, when the Lannister armies were at his gates?

BOOM!

Tyrion: Probably not. He told my brother, and Jaime told me. Do you know what wildfire is? (off Dany’s nod) He had caches of it hidden under the Red Keep, under the guild halls, the Sept of Baelor, all the major thoroughfares.

BOOM!

Tyrion: He would have burned every one of his citizens, the loyal ones and the traitors, every man, woman, and child. That's why Jaime killed him.

Daenerys: This is entirely different.

Tyrion: You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different. (beat) I'd like to suggest an alternate approach.

BOOM!

Once again, the specter of Mad King Aerys is raised in conjunction with Dany’s tendency to react with extreme violence – and once again, she needs to be gently guided away from going nuclear on entire cities.

In the light of the script, it is interesting to see how this scene plays out on the screen:

Channeling a terrible and inhumane beauty is not an easy feat and I fear that Emilia Clarke didn’t quite succeed. I’m not particularly impressed with her performance in general but it is quite clear that her emotionless demeanor is intentional in this scene. She doesn’t emote at all, which is rather unsettling in and of itself, but I think that this particular aspect of the script didn’t translate very well. I certainly didn’t get a feeling that Dany was looking at Tyrion like a snake eyes its prey. However, I do think that Peter Dinklage’s performance managed to convey a certain unease with her. However, It is subtle and can easily be interpreted as him being affected by the bombardment that Meereen is under.

In the following scene where Dany and her advisors parlay with the Masters from Astapor and Yunkai, the script once again paints Dany in a negative light. When the envoys demand her unconditional surrender, Dany simply smirks and says: “My reign has just begun”. Then Drogon appears, which is followed by this description in the script:

Dany never turns to look at the approaching DROGON. She doesn’t have to look. She only allows the faintest hint of a smile. A smile that says: my tyranny’s not ended, motherfucker. It’s only just begun.

Notice that while Dany says: My reign has just begun, the script describes her smile as saying: My tyranny’s not ended!

The language of the script is very ominous when it comes to the description of Dany – the language is not that associated with a hero but rather with a villain. Quite shocking actually. THIS IS SIMPLY NOT HOW A HERO IS DESCRIBED! Especially when you compare this description of Dany with how Jon, Sansa and company are described at the parley with Ramsay: They look beautiful and majestic, sitting there with Winterfell in the deep background. Though I’m arguing that Dany is stepping onto a dark path, I actually find the way that the script describes her and her actions pretty shocking. 

It is as though the inferno of the Dosh Khaleen burnt away something essential in Dany. In this context, I find the interview that Emilia Clarke did with Entertainment Weekly in March 2016 illuminating. About Daenerys, Emilia says: 

This season it feels like she’s learning the last lesson she needs to learn. She’s not being swayed by anyone. She knows what’s-what. There’s just a few remnants of being human that she’s shaking off. 

I don’t know about the rest of you but I find that scary as hell. I still find it hard to truly imagine her as a full-blown villain since we still get to see her more caring side in her conversation with Yara Greyjoy about leaving the world a better place - but I fear that she’s starting to suppress the caring, empathetic part of her nature. The kind and gentle heart that Jorah saw in Daenerys in seasons 1 and 2 has turned harder and less gentle. Is Dany’s heart still kind? The jury is not yet out on this question but I do find it telling that when Tyrion brings up Mad King Aerys and his plan to let King’s Landing burn, Dany doesn’t seem affected at all. If you compare that to how she reacted to Barristan Selmy’s tales about her father (s5,ep2), the difference is both stark and ominous (timestamp, 1:35):

I actually don’t think we’re meant to see Dany in an entirely negative light – yet. However, the script suggests that she’s heading into villain territory. The fact that her father the Mad King Aerys is brought up several times in relation to her actions is rather worrisome, not to mention foreboding, since both Barristan and Tyrion bring him up as a cautionary tale. The words of House Targaryen is Fire and Blood – yet for Daenerys these words also seem to be a siren song that tempts her into extreme violence. She succumbed to it in season 5 after the death of Barristan Selmy – and his words about how her father enjoyed punishing people turned out to be prophetic.

Unlike many fans, I found Dany’s season 5 arc very interesting (it was the best part of the season) because she undergoes a very interesting yet also somewhat surprising character development. We get to see her unrestrained by good counsel and she was terrifying! The crypt scene with the Masters and the dragons should make people worry. Though the man who was burned was a nameless wretch, the narrative focus was on Dany and Hizdahr, a character the show had taken some pains to establish as a sympathetic guy. That scene showed us the Mad King’s daughter – and like her father, she enjoyed her grisly display of power.

What I find so very interesting about Daenerys and her arc, is the fact that there are a lot of little clues scattered over the seasons that indicate that she’ll tread a much darker path in her journey towards her goal: the Iron Throne. We’ve seen plenty of questionable actions on her part, especially her penchant for setting people on fire. She has a definite pattern – she’s been setting people on fire since season 1 (I think season 4 is the only season she hasn’t burnt anyone alive). Furthermore, her first reaction to opposition is always extreme violence. Again and again, the people around Daenerys has had to gently steer her away from going nuclear on her enemies.

Despite all these little clues, all her questionable actions, many people still see Daenerys as a hero. If I am right and she’s going be become a much darker character, it will be a surprising plot twist for the general audience. Why is that so?

She made a very good first impression.

The righteousness of her crusade against slavery off-sets the brutality of her methods.

The people she burns are unambiguously awful (Mirri Maz Dur is an exception IMO but that would require a separate post).

Then there are the scenes that confuse the viewers, like the rousing speech scene that actually is an inversion of the traditional hero’s speech.

Not to mention that quite a few of her scenes are accompanied by truly epic, hair-raising music. Unlike any other art form, music bypasses the intellect and goes right to the gut. It is the most emotionally effecting art form and the music that accompanies her scenes plays a big part in how people perceive her..

WHY I THINK DANY GOING DARK IS A GOOD IDEA

Personally, I think that it would be a brilliant narrative move to have Daenerys move into a role as a villain or a very dark antagonists to the other protagonists of the story, making it hard to chose between her and the Starks. It would be an emotional punch to the gut – and we know how GRRM loves those. It would also make Daenerys Targaryen one of the most unique and complex female characters in fantasy fiction and that is certainly not a bad thing at all.