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#and bc i didn’t have that many good interactions between the gaslighting
yay-depression · 2 years
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texting my therapist like “hey can we move up our appointment? i keep having revelations.”
#today’s revelation is related to yesterday’s revelation#but basically#i was literally gaslight about being treated poorly by everyone from family to friends to significant others#and bc i didn’t have that many good interactions between the gaslighting#i just accepted that i was in fact overreacting and that all relationships (friend/romance/other) i was destined to be forgotten about in#i was not supposed to be given attention i was just there to give attention and support and love to other people#and then once in a blue moon i’d have genuinely good interactions#and i’d end up like immediately falling in love (platonic or romantic tbh) with the person who showed me any basic amount of attention#literally any time someone would reach out to me first or give signs that they actually wanted to talk to me and i wasn’t just a burden#i’d be like ‘i love you i would die for you marry me please’#healthy? no#depressing? hell yes#i still do this btw#for the same fucking reason#you’d think in however many years since this pattern has been happening it’d of changed at some point#but nope!#and thinking back on it this pattern of behavior is actually really fucking old#like back to when i was a little kid old#i remember having a crush on a guy in like year 2 just bc he went out of his way to say hello to me#and another guy bc sometimes he was nice to me for no reason#and a girl named khia bc she gave me compliments sometimes#like?? that was it#all of those were literally before the age of 8#getting crushes on teachers assistants or tutors bc they gave me praise sometimes#getting a crush on my latin TA in junior year bc she asked about my interests#getting a crush on a guy at camp because he asked how i was doing a lot and cared about the health of my singing voice#getting a crush on a guy i barely knew bc he kept wanting to actually fucking talk to me#like he actually engaged in conversation with me#that happened an embarrassing amount of times actually#so what i’m learning is ‘all it takes for me to love you is for you to show me a modicum of interest’
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lesbianrobin · 4 years
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i think season three is good, but there are a few things about it that absolutely enrage me to an overdramatic amount, and here i shall list them lol. also this will be in more than one ask because i have too many thoughts. ok, the first is how hopper went from trying his best to threatening children, having that "girls can't choose who they date they aren't smart" mindset, gaslighting Joyce/not believing her when she has basically always been correct, and tricking her into a date?? 1/? lol
next, i hate how they went "here, take billy's sad childhood and him saving el and forgive his racist actions! go! FETCH!" and we were supposed to be like "yayyy! what a nice guy!!!" you know? like... a sad childhood isn't redemption? it may vaguely explain things, but not excuse them? i also was disappointed with el and max's friendship being based off them being mean to their (admittedly mediocre) boyfriends? like- yall are in 8th grade dating sucks why are we being mean just communicate? 2/?
and it felt like max and el's friendship was supposed to come of as this "wow FEMINISM!" thing, and it really wasn't at all? i mean i could totally see kids perceiving this "girls rule boys drool" thing as empowering, but i just wish that if they are going to go the whole (adorable) "sleepovers, wonder woman, shopping, normal, not-supernaturalish (if that makes sense)" female friendship, they didn't base it on... well... men?
(i'm sorry i'm saying so much lol) they are also setting up problems for character development and writing. if they continue to add characters for no reason, characters are going to keep loosing purpose because there are less roles to fill than actual characters. Admittedly, the characters they add for seemingly no reason are usually so fun that i end up shutting my mouth and taking back my complaint? like max, robin, erica, not you billy, alexi, heather, etc. 4/? (i'm so sorry i'm hyperfixated)
and don'T EVEN GET ME STARTED (lmao i've clearly started) ON THE RUSSIAN STUFF?! LIKE WHAT!??!? WHO IS THIS TERMINATOR BITCH AND WHY WAS ~HE~ THE ONE TO KILL OF A NEW LOVABLE SIDE CHARACTER??? AND WHY IS HOPPER RECKLESSLY KILLING??? (sorry i am yelling the anger is not at you, you seem lovley) LIKE WHAT?!? tHIS TOXIC MASCULINITY HOPPER CRAP NEEDS TO CEASE PLEASE, I BEG. anyway there was no point to making the terminator guy other than a reference. ok i think i'm done?? thanks for listening lol.
so i’m gonna be honest man the only thing i agree with you on is that the way they handled billy was bullshit. i wholeheartedly disagree with all the rest but i’m very glad you got it all off your chest kjdcnmnd like. i’m gonna share my thoughts on some of this and i REALLY don’t mean to be rude i just like talking about stranger things so please don’t take this as me trying to argue or whatever bc that is not my intention!!
so i don’t think hopper having a problem with el and mike has anything to do with him thinking el isn’t smart or that she can’t make her own decisions. el’s a kid, and she’s only been allowed to be a kid for like... two years, max? he’s worried that she’s growing up too fast, mourning the inevitable end of her childhood which has just barely begun, and yeah, he’s overprotective, too, but he’s pretty clearly painted as being in the wrong for how he handled things. he changed his ways by the end of the season, and through the speech he wrote it’s clear that his issues stemmed from his own fears of her growing up, not from him thinking she was stupid. change isn’t typically sudden or easy, and i really do think that hopper was trying his best at the start of s3 (he lets el hang out with her friends as much as she wants, trusts her to roam freely and keep herself safe, etc). he just still had a little way to go.
i also don’t personally see how hopper “tricked” joyce into a date when she agreed to go and then didn’t show up. joyce is an adult, and she was perfectly capable of telling hopper no (she actually did tell him no once, and then didn’t object later). he was never threatening or manipulative to her. he was a total bitch after he got stood up, and they did overdo it, but he most certainly wasn’t gaslighting her. he genuinely didn’t think that there was something going on! he thought she was paranoid due to her trauma, trauma that he personally has been through and is sympathetic to. he still helped her check things out, even when he didn’t think there was a real problem, because he wanted to give her peace of mind. while you can argue he was dumb or disrespectful not to believe her, he didn’t have any intention of making joyce feel crazy or of deceiving her.
and the reason that the kids aren’t communicating well in s3 is because they’re... well, kids. have you ever seen an eighth-grade relationship where both parties communicate maturely about their problems? if they were older i would agree that the conflict was dumb, but it makes perfect sense for kids their age. i also don’t really have an issue (personally) with how the elmax friendship started. the whole point is that el came to max asking for dating advice, and max shows el that she doesn’t have to revolve her whole life around her boyfriend, she can develop her own identity and be her own person.
a lot of people in the fandom share your trepidation about adding new characters, so i’m definitely outnumbered here, but i don’t personally have a problem with it at all. i think alexei could have been better-utilized, but his existence didn’t interfere or detract from anything with existing characters. in fact, i think he gave murray some more development and allowed for more dynamic interactions between joyce and hopper. max and robin were both “new characters,” and i’m not being hyperbolic when i say they’re two of the best-written and best-acted characters in the show. when i go back and watch s1 now, things just feel wrong without max, and robin is a revelation. i think that adding new characters makes the world of stranger things feel more organic and allows for the stakes to remain somewhat high without making the writers feel like they have to kill off one of our beloved OGs. 
russian terminator... yeah you’re right that shit was weird as fuck. i don’t think hopper killing the dudes down in the base was “toxic masculinity” or anything though like he’s a veteran and the guys he killed were all soldiers and he was just trying to get to the gate to shut it down no matter the cost, yknow? it was a matter of life and death, and with a giant monster trying to kill his daughter i think him killing anyone in the way of him preventing that is kind of... fair. but yeah i don’t really get the point of terminator guy like it was so fucking weird sdknckdnm
thanks for the asks!!! the fandom’s been kinda dead lately and it’s so fun to still be able to talk about st!!
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I’m team mc needs new friends lol. She’s def been dramatic at points but her friends have consistently lied/omitted the truth and then basically gaslight her when she reacts like any person would… Not to mention they’re also just spreading each other’s business amongst themselves so much??? They leave one situation and immediately tell the others like let mc tell her own story!! And I have to say, continuing to not be a fan of Jessie in particular lol. I know they’re arguing and she’s annoyed that mc is mad (which… ???) but the fact that the first thing she says when mc says they broke up Jessie just makes up how mc feels/will react and calls her petty??? Also she just doesn’t listen. Literally mc says that’s not the only reason I broke up w him and explains it and then just a bit later Jessie goes you’re really throwing it all away bc of the kiss? GIRL NO… were you listening?? Anyway I am HEATED and I want mc to go to LA and make new trustworthy friends 💕 (ngl I didn’t expect to get SO invested in this story but your writing is just so good)
MANY THOUGHTS!!!!!
- Awwww I don't think she needs new friends, I think they all need to grow up and learn how to respect boundaries and be less enmeshed. It's interesting to see how angry people are getting with Jessie and the gang, cause as far as I'm concerned, what's going on in the friend group is stuff that happens in almost every friend group in real life, you just don't always get the full story in real life or KNOW that your other friends are talking about you/catch wind of all the drama. This friendship group is unique because they're ALL very close. In a lot of friend groups, some people are closer than others and therefore not everything is repeated to everyone.
- I don't think it's always just that they're spreading information about each other around (which they clearly do at times and can be problematic). In chapter 4, MC has dinner with Jake and Adam who point blank admit that they know some details from Harry himself. Harry (who is also a member of this friend group) has the right to process and share his emotions with his friends. Jessie and Bryn undoubtedly shared some info with Jake and Adam--but do we really think they shared it maliciously? Or did they all have some fucking conference call Sunday night after they respectively provided emotional support to MC and H to try to figure out what is going on? Let's face it *HOT TAKE*: What makes this friend group messy is that two of them are sleeping together. If MC and H were not an item, there'd be significantly less drama.
- I also think saying they're gaslighting her is too strong because gaslighting would imply (often purposeful) manipulation--which isn't what's happening at all. I think what we're seeing play out in MC's interactions with everyone post break up is this weird double-edged sword: they simultaneously know too much and not enough. On one hand, the gang thinks they know everything about MC and H's relationship and they think MC and H just need to work it out (but they're missing some big details and don't know what that relationship is like behind closed doors). On the other hand, the enmeshment in the friend group has led to poor boundaries and they DO know a lot about MC and Harry's relationship and probably shouldn't know as much. This (I think) is what's leading to so much shit between MC and Jessie. Jessie (and the others) aren't trying to manipulate her into staying with Harry--Jessie thinks she's helping because when you care about someone, it's hard not to say "are you sure?!" when they make a decision you don't think is right for them.
OVERALL: Idk, it's just interesting to me that people are being SO tough on Jessie and all the other pals bc the overarching issue (in both the first book and now this one) is miscommunication--not manipulation. Almost every issue that's occurred throughout this series could have been avoided if people had just communicated better. Which isn't easy when you're a friend group of 20 somethings who are learning how to have adult relationships with each other. I think Jessie, in particular, has not been communicative with MC enough and on top of it, repeating information to someone outside of the friend group (Jade) made things reallllly messy.
It's easy to pick Jessie (or others in various moments) to be mad at. But the reminder I try to give everyone is that getting stuck at the surface level in my stories is a death sentence. There's always something happening that's deeper and maybe that makes me a good writer--or maybe I'm just a freak lmao jury is still out
They've all fucked up. No one in this friend group is innocent and they're all responsible for the weird dynamics that occur. Which means they're all responsible to fix the messes they make.
Can you tell both of my parents are therapists???????
thank you for reading and thank you for sharing your thoughts!!!!!!!!!!! 💜💜💜
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roominthecastle · 5 years
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Ok so since you’re a believer/supporter of Agnes Gate I have this question. Lizzy’s memories were wiped, but how do you explain Red? What does he know/suspect? How do you explain his behavior? Where does he stand in all this? Hope you got my point because I’m sick and I’ve lost my ability to think clearly and transform thoughts into words 🤒😂
*cracks knuckles*
Yes, you’re coming across clearly, anon, these are all valid points/questions, and I hope you’re feeling better.
Now “believer” is a strong word but I do believe there’s enough wiggle room in current show canon to accommodate this theory. In other words (bc I really don’t want anyone to misunderstand me here): there’s still enough story space for this idea to emerge but there is no direct, overt proof that it is there or that it will.
So consider what follows NOT a proof post but a simple, albeit long AF - thought experiment that presupposes two things:
Liz and Red slept together while on the run (canonically that’s the period when Agnes was conceived)
Liz’s memory of this has been either altered or removed by Dr. Krilov
Now, behavior was, in fact, the one thing that initially put me off this theory bc I didn’t think Red would be willing to just step aside if he suspected he might be the baby’s father. BUT the following seasons revealed a couple of good reasons why he would not speak up (Kirk and the never-ending list of other hostiles, Liz’s “I hate your guts” phase, Liz clinging to Tom, Liz’s selective memory - courtesy of Krilov, fake-DG & the issue of the suitcase, an illness).
They also continued to show just how apt both Red and Liz are to not deal with stuff that’s not an immediate threat (e.g. Liz’s ‘I love you’ which they both willingly continue to just not address), and the thing is: despite not contesting paternity in any overt way, Red never actually stepped aside.
I think this paternity issue and its various complications - from Red’s perspective - can be separated into 4 major time blocks:
S3B
S4
S5A
S5B–present
Even if there’s a reason for Red to think he might be Agnes’ father, I don’t believe he works off anything more than mild suspicions in the S3B–S5A period.
During this time, his relationship with Liz is rapidly unraveling and several other roadblocks and threats emerge that likely discourage him from openly broaching this issue. Then he gets to raise Agnes for 10 months, which provides the perfect opportunity to safely run a paternity test and maybe even another genetic screening (they made a point of telling us that baby Agnes was getting a standard one back in S3 + it was emphasized how having the correct info about her parents’ medical history is crucial for accurate testing - info Tom couldn’t provide). The beginning of Red’s collaboration with Dr. Stark roughly dates back to the time period when he had Agnes with him. If Red has a hereditary (late-onset) illness, he could have been driven to seek a cure once the tests confirmed his suspicions, and he’s now testing it on himself to make sure it works and is safe before giving it to Agnes.
IF.
– more on all this behind the cut – (apologies, mobile users)
- [ S3B ] -
Confirmation of the pregnancy is a wedge between Liz and Red, and it’s Red who screws up first when he rejects the baby right off the bat and tries to bury himself in work. It understandably hurts Liz and the tense tone of their interactions begins to snowball. The main issue concerning Red’s behavior in S3B, right after Liz tells him that she’s pregnant and he bounces back from his initial rejection, is that he becomes “suffocating” and more committed than ever to keep her and the baby in his orbit (which also alarms and later sets off Mr. Kaplan). Red has little sense of boundary, he starts isolating Liz, and he barely tolerates Tom’s presence. When he makes an effort to tolerate him, that’s bc he is trying his best to respect Liz’s choices/wishes (just like in “Ruin”) regardless of his own feelings, but it doesn’t prevent him from repeatedly trying to push Tom out of the picture. He saves him from going to prison but he still has a hard time dealing with Liz having a close relationship with him. This also echoes his original plans for Tom: being there for her but also keeping his distance. This, in turn, echoes his original “invisible benefactor” role he cast himself in (and both of them clearly crossed these lines as the years went by – more on this later).
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Despite telling her that he’s known about the pregnancy for some time, Red does not act out until after Liz doesn’t deny that Tom is the father. Red knew about the pregnancy already, he had weeks to vent and get used to the idea, so his spiraling is kind of puzzling unless it’s not the pregnancy itself that sets him off. The only thing he wasn’t sure about was paternity (why?), so the only emotionally logical reason for his weird spiral is that part of him was still hoping that the baby was not Tom’s (tho, in theory, nobody else was in proximity other than the two of them + a more closer look at the timeline reveals that Tom was, in fact, nowhere near Liz when the baby was conceived).
But when Liz didn’t deny it, that’s when it became too much for Red: he didn’t want to have a child (for several reasons) but what he wanted even less was Tom to be confirmed as the father. Then his entire outlook on this subject changes by the end of the episode (after reminding himself how Katarina, too, dreaded having a baby but changed her mind completely). This also brings that Samar/Aram conversation to mind where she tells Aram how being around him changed her attitude towards having children, but now she cannot raise one bc of her condition.
But back to 312 and the “I’m pregnant” moment:
This whole conversation is just weird. Red is tense from the moment he sees Liz at the Post Office, then feeds her the answer to his own question, presenting it as a statement: “I assume Tom is the father.” Why not just give her the opportunity to name him? What this feels like is him giving her an out instead, and his closed-off, prickly, I-am-being-very-inconvenienced-by-this behavior (and Tom’s enthusiasm) is practically willing Liz to take it. And she hesitates for a moment, then instead of saying “yes” she just says, “I haven’t told him yet.” And this is where Red’s barely civil behavior veers into total assholery rejection, then he does a 180 at the end of the episode. By then Liz is sufficiently pissed off and is already pushing him away and sliding back into Tom’s arms. So in many ways ep 312 is where things truly turn and then get worse, and it all happens over Tom, essentially.
After this fallout, we get the episode where Red is thinking back to Josephine who was maneuvered into marrying an abusive scumbag for strategic reasons (as usual, we have parallels too). It was all arranged by a third party, which reminds me of Mr. Kaplan referring to Tom as her “confidant”, which makes me wonder about the extent of their off-screen interaction. Mr. Kaplan was doing everything to tear Red and Liz apart bc she saw that bond as fatal to both and a danger to the baby. Maybe she arranged that 2nd session w/ Krilov (who might have planted images that switched Red and Tom like he did w/ the fire memory where the roles were switched around), then she tipped Tom off, urging him to rekindle his relationship w/ Liz (his proposal was so out of the blue, I still don’t know what to do w/ that).
When Liz wants to give up the baby for adoption, she is told that she has to discuss this with the father, too, as his consent is also needed. Liz says the father is busy with work, then she has 0 conversation about this w/ Tom and goes to Red who, now being very pro having the baby, tries to talk her out of it. He also sabotages Tom’s teacher job and, at the same time, swoops in and presents Liz with a trust fund he set up for the baby, insisting that it’s for the child. As far as symbolic actions go, this one is screaming “I am the provider, not him”. And if it’s not clear enough, he also spells it out by telling her Tom’s not worthy of being her husband and of raising the baby. But it’s too late. Liz rejects him and clings to Tom. She even re-watches the video of Tom being interviewed as a potential adoptive father, which we saw in S1. Liz has been show to chat with potential adoptive parents, so her watching Tom’s adoption agency interview kinda makes it look like she picks Tom to “adopt” Agnes.
S3B is the time period when the threat from Kirk starts emerging. Mr. Kaplan also begins to view Red and Liz’s bond as sth to sever and Red himself as a threat to Agnes, saying that the baby hasn’t even been born yet but is “already paying the price for her association” with him. Then Liz kicks Red out when he asks to see the newborn baby, and soon after Liz’s “death”, Tom tells him that Agnes would only need protection if Red remained in her life. The three of them manage to gaslight Red to such an extent that he completely breaks down. He begins to contemplate ending it all and wanders around, cataloging the reasons.
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And that episode-long contemplation is where we get to see (his version of) Katarina in this exact position, her pain at losing the man she loved at a time when there was so much anger and tension btw them, at not being able to raise her daughter, and all her reasoning for committing suicide (all paralleling Red’s). We can also glimpse Red’s innermost thoughts/feelings regarding Liz, Agnes, and Tom. He says “her mother is dead. All she has is the father.” Somehow he cannot bring himself to call Tom “her father” and this is reflected in future real-life interactions w/ Tom as well, when he switches between calling Agnes “Elizabeth’s child” and “your daughter” in his presence. Liz similarly switches btw calling Agnes “my” and “our” around Tom, and initially she refuses to refer to Agnes as anything but “my baby” even after Tom corrects her. It’s almost like both she and Red need some time to adjust. She does. Red? not so much.
Dom further adds to Red’s crushing guilt by reminding him how his choices doomed Liz like they doomed Katarina before. But then he also reminds him that he still has a reason to live as there are others out there who depend on him (“God help them.” - I LOVE Dom). So Red returns to make sure Agnes is safe and to exact vengeance for Liz’s death, two goals which are tied in his mind as he claims that the only way to protect Agnes is by killing Kirk who’s responsible for Liz’s death. He makes a deal with Tom: he lets him participate in the hunt in exchange for being allowed to spend time with Agnes. Again, this whole exchange has a vibe of negotiating visitation rights.
And Red’s interactions w/ Scottie give us a feel for why he will not argue much in the future when Liz decides to pick her to look after Agnes: Red calls Scottie “a brilliant strategist” who - despite Red’s visceral dislike of her - is a suitable “guard” as long as she believes Agnes to be her granddaughter. So not giving any reason to undermine that belief is in the little girl’s best interest (for now).
- [ S4 ] -
This is a period dedicatedto the overarching theme of “truth vs. appearances”, and we have afew interesting ideas and info snippets introduced that can help furtherexplain Red’s behavior if (he suspects that) Agnes is his.
First of all, we meet Kirkand gain some insight into the relationship dynamics of the past - dynamicswhich reflect those in the present.
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Mirroring is a curiousfeature that’s utilized right at the beginning, in 401. It’s briefly touchedupon (here) but what makes the Red-Kirk-Liz scene especially interesting isthat the mirroring btw this exchange and the Red-Tom-Agnes one in “CapeMay” is not merely visual but also verbal, giving some weight to thesuspicion that they are linked by design. In both scenes we have the“designated dad” in a room with his daughter while the real father(Red is not Liz’s father but in 401 he “stands in” for real Reddington) is separated and looking in from the outside. On top of that, the dialogues are verysimilar, too:
Red (401): Are you okay? || Red (319): She’ll need protection.Kirk (401): Unlike you, I’d never hurt my own daughter. || Tom (319): Only ifyou are in her life.
And to push it even further,Kirk’s words (“What I desire is to raise my child. To watch hergrow.”) reflect Red’s innermost wish he voices in 319: “ I’d giveanything to be a part of that child’s life […] see her, hold her, watch hergrow.” And this also echoes Liz’s fantasy she shares with Red when theyare on the run. And Red’s retort to Kirk in 401 (“She was never yours toraise.”) also matches Red’s dance around the issue of Agnes’ paternity in319 where he refuses to directly call Tom her father, paralleling Katarina’s pain that she feels due to being separated from her daughter.
So I think what we can statewith certainty here is that there is confusion around paternity inboth scenes.
As the season unfolds, we dolearn that Kirk was a “cover dad”, designated as such by Katarina formultiple reasons (that happen to match Liz’s reasons for wanting to“escape” Red in S3 and be with Tom instead):
best chance at a normal life: Kirk did not work as an agent or any kind ofoperative, he had a (relatively) stable life in Russia. Katarina wasmarried to him and they lived together until real Reddington, believing Mashato be his daughter, took their daughter back to the US.
safety: asRed put it, “Your safety was guaranteed because Kirk believed you to behis daughter.” This belief was cemented in by a fake DNA report andentries in Katarina’s journal where she writes about their relief that Mashawon’t be exposed to the genetic illness that plagues Kirk’s family as it canonly be inherited by sons.
“no other path”: despite loving Reddington, Katarina accepted that she was never gonna endup with him. The circumstances were forever against them. This is why she began distancing herself from him and this is why she didn’t want to know ifhe was Masha’s father.
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If Katarina had written apro/con list for her baby, I bet it would have looked a lot like the one Liz wrote, exceptit would have said “Kirk????” instead of “Tom????” But, as Redtold Liz, being Katarina’s husband didn’t make Kirk her father, which is apotentially relevant observation given how Liz kept trying to marry Tom at allcosts to force a “normal family” into existence that was never more than anillusion + how she was trying to distance herself from Red.
Those three main reasons abovealso provided the motivation for a cover-up that Kirk refused to acceptas the truth until multiple tests confirmed it when he fell ill and needed agenetic donation from a blood relative. As Red pointed out, “You saw whatKatarina wanted you to see.” This also echoes Mr. Kaplan’s words to Red atthe end of S3: “You saw what we needed you to see.” which might godeeper than “merely” faking Liz’s death and could be a hint at Kaplan’srole in arranging the 2nd memory manip session with Krilov.
In this season, Red alsostruggles with appearance vs. truth, with the cost/benefit ratio of deceptionsand false assumptions. This happens indirectly when he “auditions” hisnew cleaners in a pristine white apartment where one of his friends wasmurdered. He is both upset and marvels at how clean everything looks –“your cleaners removed even the memory of his blood”.
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This practicality takes on asymbolic meaning as it carries over into Red’s relationship with Mr. Kaplanwhom he calls his confessor: “every trespass I committed, expunged.Cleansed as if it never happened.” Mr. Kaplan claims that Red betrayed Lizand held her “emotionally hostage”. These are rather extreme accusations… unless Red and Liz slept together while on the run and Redconfessed this to Mr. Kaplan. Now that act could be easily and understandablyconsidered trespassing by her, a crossing of a line that never should have beencrossed (= a betrayal). Red felt rage when he learned that Tom had become intimate with Liz. He considered this a betrayal, too, and Tom an immediate threat. He went about correcting the situation the same way Mr. Kaplan goes about correcting Red’s behavior in S3B-S4. Perhaps the trigger was the same type of trespassing too.
Mr. Kaplan makes it her mission to separate Liz and Red,and it all begins back in S3, around the time somebody hired Dr. Krilov to takecertain memories from Liz. Red is very close to directly confessing his feelings for Liz in 302. If he ended up confessing that he’s in love with her and they ended up in bed, that can be considered “a truth” about him that Liz uncovered – a truth that someone who doesn’t want them to be together would definitely object to.
Mr. Kaplan urges Liz to “do what yourmother never had the courage to do: walk away from Raymond.” IF Red and Liz slepttogether and Agnes was the result, then Dr. Krilov’s 2nd memory manipulationdid what Red’s cleaner(s) did in the white apartment: the “trespass” got “expunged”. Even the memory of it.Truth became elusive and assumptions took its place (like “I assume Tom is thefather.”).
Red is trying to complete a white puzzle in the white apartment,which takes on potential relevance after we can hear him compare memory toa jigsaw puzzle in 514. The possible relevance? Maybe he’s wondering (puzzled, if you will ;) why Lizacts as if nothing happened between them on the run, as if her memory of it were wiped clean. And while it is undoubtedly simpler and safer thisway, and it’s best to leave that topic alone, it is hard for him to accept, esp with Tomin the picture and taking on roles Red wishes to be able to fill, roles Liz now rejects him in.
In this episode we can also hear Gale make a pointed, suggestive remarkto Liz about her time with Red in S3A: “What was it like on the run withhim? Did he charm you?” And all this happens while Mr. Kaplan is hell-benton tearing Red and Liz apart for the sake of all of their safety, claiming thatRed’s presence in their lives is a threat to Agnes, Liz, and also to himself.
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Memory manipulation - or the presence of holes in one’s memory - has itsown “footprint” in the show. It usually manifests as images drifting outof focus and echoing voices. There are two instances where this happens to Liz with no apparent reason. One is in 308 when she is in a gas stationbathroom - already pregnant - staring at her reflection in the dirty mirror. The other is in 317when Red marches towards her in the church, calling out her name and interrupting her and Tom’s wedding -both are situations where her baby’s father and her husband are likely on her mind. In317 she even connects the two by saying she wants to build a life with thefather of her child and Red keeps pleading with her to not marry Tom.
We are periodically reminded that Red is a Proust fan, and Proustjust happens to be the author of À la recherche du temps perdu (In Search of Lost Time) - a monumentalexploration of the various connections that web reality, perception, and memorytogether. The concept of involuntary memory originates from this novel series,and we can see this in action on The Blacklist, too, when Liz’sburied memory of the night of the fire gets triggered in 222. It’s also possible that she was close to being triggered in those twoscenes mentioned above, and maybe she won’t even need Krilov’s help in regaining the memories she’s lost the 2nd time as they could also be triggered unexpectedly by the smallest, most random thing - a smell, a taste, a voice, a gesture.
The white apartment incidentalso coincides with Liz, Agnes, and Tom moving to a new apartment. Redhas a hard time adjusting to this change, to no longer being able to see Agneswhenever he wants (and he was visiting her regularly while they were in his safe house, always showing up w/ the request to see her in particular), which brings the downside of deception into focus: separation. And Redstruggles with this despite understanding the safety that lies in it and inhiding truths - something Katarina knew a lot about, as well.
It’s not surprising that he soon starts musingabout the importance of truth (in 412):
“You said something before. The truth doesn’t matter, that the only thing in this world that matters is just the appearance of truth. I fear you might be right about that. Lately I find that the truth has become… so elusive. Often imaginary. But in the end, it’s all that we’re left with, isn’t it? What is real, what you can taste and touch and feel. The words that pass between us as we look each other in the eye are… all we have to hold on to. The truth. I hold it dear.”
then he proceeds to make a cuckoo clock forAgnes in the following episode (x, x). His first remark on how he is no longercomfortable with the idea of dying at any second also pops up in 412, and itgets reaffirmed in 415, in the same episode where the bad guy of the weekexpresses the same sentiment: his reason for clinging to his miserable life is fatherhood andhe wants a family even if he is barred from being physically present in their lives.
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Red faces this issue, too. Tom remains Agnes’ (designated)dad and Liz’s husband while he is now kept away. He stillkeeps prodding that family unit, though, keeps teasing Tom about his pastand keeps involving him in missions to strip away his thin veneer of “normaland safe” to prove to Liz that she is mistaken about him. (sidenote: Tom also“takes over” the sentiment of Liz - and Agnes - being his future; thisis Red’s “thing”, has been since S1)
Meanwhile, Red keepsflip-flopping between accepting Mr. Kaplan’s accusations and rejecting them (“Maybe I am the person you need protection from.” vs “She was wrong to think Elizabeth and Agnes were safer without me in their lives.”). Hecannot seem to make up his mind as others join the chorus of blaming him forhow badly things turned out.
This is also the seasonwhere Red has an awkward and out-of-the-blue exchange with Cooper about thelatter’s sick daughter (414), and in another ep (404) - one featuring a parentand child sharing the same disorder - Red is asked point blank if he has achild with special needs but he doesn’t answer.
His personal struggle with appearancevs truth, however, is temporarily suspended when Liz blindsides him with the DNA test in 422. Despite his visible discomfort, Reddoesn’t correct Liz’s false assumption because it happens to provide theperfect cover he so desperately needs to find the skeleton Mr. Kaplan unearthed.But this strategic move comes with the price of having to keep his silenceabout Agnes for the foreseeable future. Thanks to Mr. Kaplan’s parting gift andCooper’s (accidental?) “antidote” of running that DNA test and providing cover, Red is now backed into a corner where the only way topreserve his secret is by not challenging appearances.
- [ S5A ] -
this block is nestledbetween two high-impact turning points: the DNA test and Tom’s death. The DNAtest locks Red into a false role, that of Liz’s father, which holds throughoutS5 and to a lesser extent in S6. The only reprieve is the 10-month period duringwhich he gets to take on the role of father in Agnes’ life (=inhabiting thetruth). Liz spends this time unconscious, which I find quite symbolic, as well (her being not conscious of his true role).
The DNA test is both a curseand a blessing. Red undoubtedly enjoys the sudden warming of his relationship with Lizbut he clearly does not enjoy her referring to him as “father”. Everytime it happens, we can see him wince, cringe, or glare in silence. But it happensto be the perfect cover for him to keep searching for the skeleton since it preventsLiz from asking the very questions he doesn’t want her to wonder about.
So Liz confrontinghim with the DNA test closes the window of opportunity Red still had in S3B andS4 to contest paternity. This turn of events also forces him to prioritizepreserving his secret over almost everything else (he is only ready to give it up when he thinks Liz’s life is at stake), so the struggle we can see him having in S4 - the onebtw appearances and the truth - promptly takes a back seat as keeping upappearances becomes the #1 strategic necessity.
That being said, Red still onlydoes the bare minimum (= not denying it outright) to play father to Liz. And this time block brings some interesting remarks about geneticsand secrets, which may have more significance than simply serving as empty redherrings until the impostor reveal hits at the end of the season.
Smokeydrops some comments about being “just like daddy” and having “noway to avoid the family curse” because “DNA is what it is.” Onthe surface this ties into the (beyond grating) tendency of some characters to blame-shiftand refuse to take any responsibility for their shitty life choices. But what makesthis exchange stand out is the wording “family curse” becauseKatarina uses a similar phrase (“this accursed disease that has afflicted his family for generations”) to describe Kirk’s condition.In 506, Tom also remarks to Red that “family secrets” always comeout. And now Red is sick and is in need of a pioneering geneticist’s help to find a cure. Somehow I don’t believe this is all just coincidence. + judging from those (brief) (glimpses) we get at Agnes, she is already a lot like her dad. ;)
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Ep 504 in particularhas some curious details because they don’t line up with Red and Liz’s pretendrelationship but they do line up with the idea of Red having “a familycurse” that puts Agnes at risk. In this episode, asoldier gives up her child to get him out of harm’s way, but when the child presentswith an incurable disorder, she takes him from his adoptive parents, thencommits suicide to provide the donor heart needed to save his life. Witnessing this,Red remarks that “given the same circumstances, I’d like to think I’d beas brave as her. I know I’d wanna be.”
And then Tom dies, Liz endsup in a coma, and Red is left to take care of Agnes. If she is his, this 10-month period gives Red the perfect opportunity to finally confirm it and, asI mentioned above, have her tested for whatever disorder he knows he - and thus she too -carries. The timeline is always tricky on this show but by my rough estimateRed invested in Dr. Stark’s gene hacking research around the time he still had Agnes or not long after.
- [ S5B–present ] -
In this period, Red shouldalready have confirmation about paternity, about whether or not Agnes is atrisk, and Dr. Stark is already working on the cure for both. However, theskeleton and all the threats attached are still out there, circling them, and Liz is stillunder the impression that he is her father, which Red cannot push back againstif he is to keep his main secret secret.
We’ve seen how far he is willing to go tokeep his identity hidden, so letting Liz believe he is her father is really notall that out there for this guy. Only life-and-death situations can push him to reveal certain things, so it might be unruly genetics that will end up forcing his hand this time around. If Agnes needs treatment, that’s gonna be tricky to administer w/o somebody eventually noticing.
Red is still in a false role for now but its confines have weakened since he realized that Liz now knows he used to be someoneelse.
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WhenLiz decides to go away for a while and entrusts Agnes to Scottie, Red questionsbut eventually goes along with her decision. “It was what youwanted,” he tells her later on. Even locked in his assumed role hecould have dug his heels in and claimed that he had a say in this matter, but he letLiz make the decisions and respected them. It carried way more risk to let her disappear alone than to let Scottie take Agnes, yet Red did not argue and did notrepeat the mistakes he made in S3B when things got so out of hand, Liz began toresent him and he was genuinely worried he was suffocating her. So he did what everybody toldhim to do in S4: he let her - and Agnes - go. And then she came back to him.
But for now, it is best if Agneshas safe distance from both him and Liz. In 520, Red told Jennifer that she was notabandoned but protected. That’s Agnes, too. Red may detest Scottie but he doesacknowledge that she is an excellent strategist with the skills, insight,motivation, and resources to keep the little girl safe. Shebelieves her to be her granddaughter, which - imo - in Red’s book ensures her loyaltyno matter how he feels about her otherwise. And in ep 512, we can see that Redknows exactly where Agnes is and, knowing him, he has his own invisiblemultilayered security web in place, monitoring everyone in Agnes’ life 24/7 and sendingdaily reports to him.
Whenhe and Liz observe Agnes from a distance at the end of the episode, the topic oftruth once again emerges, making it the third time that Agnes and talk of“the truth” co-occur: one is earlier in this episode (“If I misseven one more day with [Agnes] than is absolutely necessarybecause you’re not being completely honest…”)and the other is the cuckoo clock scene in S4. Red tells Liz heknows how hard this separation is and that they want the same thing here, whichechoes his remark in S4 about how they are in lockstep where Agnesis concerned. It also reminds me ofhis stunned reaction when Liz shares her fantasy with him in S3 (“I’mwalking in a park with my husband. Inbetween usis our little girl. I’mholding her hand in mine… and Inever let go.”). They do want the same thing and they are on the same page about Agnes, but everything else is still in disarray. For now, there is safetyin separation and keeping up appearances, even uncomfortable and painful ones.
In 514, Red gives us and Liz areminder when he points out that in the criminal underworld you can neverreveal how important someone is to you without making them an instant target. Theshow continues to provide examples of this specific danger, and the cases thatdirectly touch upon this topic “borrow” elements from Red’s situation: in518, Mosadek’s son is abducted by business associates because they suspect himof being an informant, and in 610, criminals attempt to extort money from a fatherwhose daughter was born premature with a condition to which there was no cureat the time, so the father came up with one.
Ep605 is extra curious because it features the story of a guy who never knew hisfather and only learned about his identity when he was unexpectedly summoned to the readingof his will. Van Ness was fighting an illness, too, and decided to change hiswill to include his only son that nobody even knew about. His last written message to himwas: “I loved your mother but didn’t have the courage to stay withher.” Van Ness’ seat and vote in an international criminal syndicate are also automaticallytransferred to his heir, making him a target for various reasons. It’s also a reminder of what kind of dangerous entanglements thechildren of international criminals have to deal with once their family ties arerevealed. In this episode, we also get a reminder from Aram that “in arelationship, the truth always comes out.” and Dembe continues toplead with Red to be honest with Liz, tell her the truth and leave the rest to fate. Red, however, stubbornly keeps his silence.
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Theparallels btw Red/Liz and Samar/Aram also continue in S6, and what Samar tells Aram in 613has potential relevance to deciphering Red’s perspective and reasons for not speaking up about Agnes. Samar says that she made peace with the idea that she was never gonna havechildren (back in S3, she told Liz she picked career over family) but meeting Aram changed everything. After that, she wanted nothingmore than to try and balance the two, to build a family with him. But now that she knows she has anirreversible condition, she cannot raise a child, and she feels he deservesmore than what she can give.
Ifeel all these sentiments also play a role in how Red evaluates the possibilities of hisrelationship with Liz (even if Agnes is not his). His initial reaction to the baby was rejection,remarking that a child would make their difficult work infinitely harder. But then he changed his mind. In 319, he confessed that hewould give anything to be able to raise Agnes but he was also painfully aware of the factors preventing him from realizing this wish.“Your baby deserves more than we can provide,”Mr. Kaplan told Liz right at the moment she decided to separate her from Redfor good. This idea also emerges in 614, when Red notices Liz staring at thephoto of herself with Katarina, and tells her that the photo represented everythingKatarina wanted but couldn’t have after she became a hunted woman. Being a fugitive himself, Red facesthe exact same problem. And now he alsohas an illness to overcome, so him having the same attitude as Samar - i.e. writing himself off as notbeing a suitable match and accepting not being with “the one” - feels right on the mark, imo. Katarina also shared in this heartbreak where realReddington and their daughter were concerned. She, too, had to let go of what she really wanted.
bottom line (bc it’s time to wrap this up): everything that’s happened since Liz confronted Red with the pregnancynews has been discouraging him from “coming out” as Agnes’ father:
initial uncertainty regarding paternity
Liz’s growing resentment towards him that culminated in a faked death
Tom + Liz choosing him over and over again coupled w/ Red starting to accept that Tom somehow makes Liz happy while he only manages to bring pain and hardship into her life
the constant threats and Red’s growing worry that he might indeed be athreat to Agnes and Liz
the unexpected DNA report that was also the perfect cover
Red’s emerging health issues
Liz’s missing memories (without which how would he even begin to explain it or have any hope she will not freak completely or worse?)
But we are in a period now where there is tangible improvement regarding these main issues. Red now knows whether or not he’s Agnes’ father, so that uncertainty is gone. Tom is dead. Liz’s resentment subsided and she knows Red is an imposter yet loves him anyway and told him so. He also knows about Krilov’s 2nd interference that explains some of Liz’s behavior. His illnessis being treated, too. But the risks and threats in their lives still remain. For now they are mitigating this by staying away from Agnes, but if theimprovements hold, hopefully the time will come when this issue of paternity - along with some other questions - can be broughtforth and sorted between the two of them.
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