#and stupid discourse that doesn’t matter

[h-monayy]

It’s weird being in this fandom here and on instagram. Like following the official account and seeing all of the middle aged people commenting like oh. You have a job and a family I’m the outlier here. I’m very glad they don’t have the horrors of a large very young fanbase though I wouldn’t wish that on anyone 😔 plus they r the ones tuning in live and keeping it renewed for new seasons so god bless them !!!

But here it’s the neurodivergent kids (shoutout y’all r the backbone of any solid fandom) and people who are deranged (me).

I also almost passed out when Asher Grodman viewed my story when I reposted one of his posts. I forget that they aren’t mega celebrities 😭 this fandom is SMALL !!!

[worldsbiggestnerd101]

i think i hate this fandom now (at least some of it)

i searched up “hazbin hotel human au” here on tumblr, my favorite little hellsite, because i’m writing a human au and wanted to get a look at what other people’s designs for the characters looked like so i could get a better sense of what i wanted my designs to look like. that’s all fine and good right? wrong.

so i was scrolling, looking through some of the art, and i see fanart that had a decent style and a decent human angel dust design and i was like “oh that’s cute!” i then noticed another character in the art, who, because they had dark skin, i thought was husk at first glance. NOPE. i looked closer and realized, surprise bitch, it was fucking VAGGIE. and then i looked at the tags.

kill me. what the FUCK. they’re both canonically gay in the opposite direction of one another. they wouldn’t ever be into each other. not to mention the fact that vaggie has a gf and angel’s most likely gonna end up with husk. i’m just so fucking confused like WHY. just fucking why 😭

[ghostdnfie]

antis pulling the same shit they’ve pulled for a ridiculous number of years like i haven’t seen this a million times at this point i’m just like

[mars-ipan]

there’s a lot of reasons to dislike internet discourse but i think my main reason is that it is genuinely completely ineffective like 99% of the time

[sapphymayeyeplease]

Im so happy I don’t interact with the wider fandom for regretevator. my friends and the people I follow are cool but some of the things that happen in this fandom. some of the drama that goes down… ._.

[giogio]

has anyone here seen richard siken’s current twitter antics

[foxmulderautism]

like yeah dude it’s really cool that you used AI to complete an art piece that was purposefully left unfinished because the artist was dying of AIDS as the government ignored the mass loss of life and health. all you really did was show that technology can bring an art piece into the modern age but why? why do we need to do that? what does it say about us if we feel that a piece needs to be ‘completed’? how are we viewing completion?? can seeing an ai generated “completion” of unfinished have the same effect of seeing the parts haring left blank and the parts where the art drips into the blank? does it aid the narrative of it in any way? can AI understand the levels at which artists used their pieces about AIDS as a form of protest? of begging to be seen? how can it when an AI’s concept of ‘completing’ the piece is just guesswork of what the colours and shapes would look like to match what haring made which is nowhere near the same level of intention that came from him? you said you ‘completed’ the piece with ai because his story is so sad but does that mean we should try to rectify sadness by getting rid of the representation of it? should we not continue to sit in the sadness and discomfort that unfinished and other AIDS inspired art asks us to do because those feelings are only a fraction of what the people who died and lost felt, is that not the least we can do for them? and what good does any of this actually do when we can use technology to ‘complete’ a purposefully unfinished art piece about an artist’s untimely death from AIDS but we can never bring keith haring or any other person who died of AIDS back to life? where does haring, the person whose illness and death lives in those blanks, come into your self fulfilling ai generated completion of his work?

[akitossohma]

as someone who has watched jjk both subbed and dubbed i feel im qualified to say that the sub translations are a hot fucking mess

[vizsladyke]

Me seeing a bad take from my beloved mutual

[clingyduoapologist]

At the end of the day, Dream has no position. He has no angle to argue from, because getting away from the realm of allegation or speculation, the things he’s admitted to, the people he chooses to surround himself with, the things we’ve seen him do are already enough to disqualify him from being taken seriously in any capacity. Any opinion you form about Dream has to take into account the people that he himself has admitted to hurting. It’s not a situation or drama or discourse it’s a trail of destruction.

We’re not waiting for another shoe to drop or for a straw to break some camel’s back, because the camel’s been fucking run over. We can sit here and speculate about the degree to which he’s an asshole, over which allegations are really credible, who we can believe, but that doesn’t change the fact that Dream has already proven himself, at the very very insanely oversimplified least, to be irresponsible with his platform, with his fanbase, and with the other people his platform has allowed him to meet.

He loves to pretend that, because he’s admitted to things he’s done in the past, now he’s completely exonerated. That because certain specific claims haven’t been true, that all the criticism against him is petty and stupid and should be ignored. But specifics don’t fucking matter when he’s shown patterns of harmful behavior that haven’t seemed to change for years.

He’s had his chances to show us that he could do better. Too many, in my opinion. By now, my mind is thoroughly made up. What’s important now is to show your support for his victims, the victims of his friends, and to not accept similar behavior from to creators you love.

Dreamwastaken is someone I do not know, that I feel like I’ve gotten to know all too well recently. I will not pretend to know the extent of what he’s done, to get parasocial and try to divine some ultimate truth to his character. All I have to go on is what he’s shown us and what others have told us. And I feel like that’s more than enough to form an opinion of him as a creator, and as a person.

[mxtxfanatic]

I mean, I don’t think Lan Xichen stupid; he is just unwilling to see his loved ones in a bad light and, like you said, does not care about much else outside of that. Lan Wangji does speak up for Wei Wuxian, and that is the moment Lan Xichen contradicts him in favor of Jin Guangyao’s intentional slander:

Jin GuangYao took the handkerchief, wiping away as he forced a smile, “I can’t leave, can I?” He was the only one left to clean up the mess. How could he leave the scene? He reassured the crowd as he ranted, completely exhausted, “Young Master Wei really is too impulsive. How could he speak in such a way in front of so many sects?” Lan WangJi spoke coldly, “Was he wrong?” Jin GuangYao paused almost unnoticeably. He immediately laughed, “Haha. Yes, he’s right. But it’s because he’s right that he can’t say it in front of them, correct?” Lan XiChen seemed as if he was deep in thought, “Young Master Wei’s heart really has changed.” Hearing this, pain flashed across the light pair of eyes under Lan WangJi’s knitted brows.

—Chapt. 72: Recklessness, exr

But the reason I said that nobody following Wei Wuxian to the labor camp to verify the Jin Clan’s crimes is Lan Xichen’s (and everyone else’s) negligence is that Wei Wuxian publicly charged the Jin with corruption and amassing power to become like the same clan that they all just had to put down lest they be killed. This isn’t about “punishing another clan’s disciple,�� this is about making sure another war isn’t gonna need to happen some years down the line! A person caring for righteousness at most and the safety of their people at least would have followed up. Lan Xichen does not. Therefore, everything that happens after to his clan is his own fault for failing to care past “I can’t leave, now, jgy got tea poured on him!” Just like everything that happened to the Nie Clan post-emergency conference is Nie Mingjue’s fault for willingly standing with Jin Guangyao’s lies as long as it meant that nobody would side with any Wen, regardless of their innocence. It's not that the Lan are particularly isolationist, either, but that the entire cultivation world is "it's none of my business" about inhumanity committed against other, less powerful people and only care if their loves ones or power is on the line, hence why it took the QishanWen finally just outright attacking the Nie Clan for the Sunshot Campaign to start, despite the fact that they had already burned down the Cloud Recesses and had killed 2/5 great clan leaders in living memory.

And following that thread back to the Sunshot Campaign: nobody criticized Wei Wuxian during the war except Lan Wangji. It is a whole commentary on the hypocrisy of the cultivation world and why Lan Wangji is different, because when everyone could benefit from his ghost path, they all loved it—in fact, they thought Lan Wangji was unreasonable for criticizing Wei Wuxian!—but when it was peacetime and Wei Wuxian refused to bow to hierarchy and play the part of the servant to their whims, then suddenly his cultivation is “a crooked path” and the yon tiger tally “needs to be controlled by other clans, not one person.” Lan Wangji was the only one consistent in how he treated Wei Wuxian’s cultivation, and that was because he was operating under the false assumption that Wei Wuxian’s change in personality came from his nee cultivation and not from a missing golden core and having to survive so many traumatic events around the time of its removal. Wei Wuxian doesn’t practice demonic cultivation, and he isn’t deemed “uncontrollable” because of it but because he refuses to “fall in line.” He is slandered as a “demonic cultivator” because people are jealous and covetous of his power.

As long as Wei Wuxian refused to become blindly loyal like Wen Zhuliu or morally repugnant like Xue Yang and as long as he didn’t remain a humble background ornament like Jinzhu and Yinzhu so as not to seem more powerful than their “betters” (the gentry), Wei Wuxian was doomed to never be accepted by the greater cultivation world. There was no “holding doors open for him despite his lineage,” because if there’s one thing rich and powerful people hate, it’s someone who’s better than them and won’t let them forget it. A

Why Lan Wangji Endures

I breifly touched on this topic before in this post, but I wanted to go more in-depth with it in combination with this post. When Lan Wangji says this:

"...When I went to see him, I told him, ‘Young Master Wei was already in the wrong, why add onto the wrong committed?’ And he said....... He can’t affirm whether what you did was right or wrong. But no matter what, he was willing to shoulder all of the responsibility together with you...."

—Chapt. 99: A Hatred for Life Part 2, boat-full-of-lotus-pods

...he is not making a statement on the morality of either his or Wei Wuxian's actions. In fact, his opinions about the moral righteousness of their actions are separate from his opinions on his clan's (and the greater cultivation world's) meted-out punishments. Why? Because the rules and laws of the cultivation world are now wholly separate from what is moral, and so Lan Wangji has matched Wei Wuxian in cleaving his sense of morality from what is considered acceptable by the status quo. Lan Wangji cannot confirm to Lan Xichen (or the Lan Clan, or the cultivation world as a whole) whether Wei Wuxian was right or wrong because they are not operating under the same understanding of "right and wrong." At the same time, Lan Wangji's (summarized via Lan Xichen's) speech above is not in conversation with his brother but actually in conversation with Wei Wuxian's speech back in Yiling:

There was no such road. No solution existed. Wei WuXian spoke slowly, “Thank you for keeping me company today. Thank you for telling me the news about my shijie’s marriage too. But, let the self judge the right and the wrong, let others decide to praise or to blame, let gains and losses remain uncommented on. I, too, know what I should and shouldn’t do. I believe that I’ll be able to control it as well.” As if he’d anticipated such an attitude since a long time ago, Lan WangJi nodded slightly and closed his eyes. And that marked their farewell.

—Chapt. 75: Distance, exr

Wei Wuxian was put into a dead-end situation where any act of self-defense or defense of innocents was an automatic crime. In the end, he experienced the ultimate consequence of death because his act of self-defense led to the death of an important individual, a death that was seen as "unforgivable" in the eyes of the cultivation world, unlike the deaths of Wei Wuxian and the Wen remnants. Likewise, Lan Wangji's actions in protecting Wei Wuxian against his clan were met with punishment, because even though he had good cause in rescuing the Wen remnants' only protector, going against his clan is "unforgivable" in the eyes of a society ruled by tradition and orthodoxy over morality. This is why Wei Wuxian says that the self must judge the self, and why Lan Wangji is following that creed by enduring the Lan Clan punishment while maintaining an unshakeable belief in Wei Wuxian's righteousness.

It was never about Lan Wangji doubting his or Wei Wuxian's morals. It was never about Lan Wangji putting love above righteousness. It was always about how Lan Wangji so much believed in Wei Wuxian's morality and the righteousness of his actions that he was willing to protect the man when the entire world said he was in the wrong, when his own family stood opposite him. And just like Wei Wuxian eventually accepted the consequences of his actions and used his last moments to attempt to destroy the Stygian Tiger Seal, Lan Wangji, too, endured being whipped 33 times by the discipline whip, then went on to rescue Wen Yuan and raise him and the other Lan disciples with morals so strong that they could transcend the mob mentality that their parents never learned to unsubscribe from. Lan Wangji's steadfastness in the face of the incredible hypocrisy and corruption baked into the system he lived in is why Wei Wuxian is able to resurrect into a world where the new generation can look up to him as a hero and a mentor rather than a scourge and a terror.

This endurance is Lan Wangji's ultimate act of love.

[cheesechilifreye]

Dad headcanons that make little to no sense.

Bill

Determined to be better than his father at raising his daughter. After growing up in an abusive home with an absent parent. He doesn’t want her to grow up into what he became.

Unpopular opinion — I believe he eventually realized when she was around a year old that he DID have to straighten up for her. That ment quitting the eBay gig.

Gets incredibly nervous when going to public places with her because he doesn’t want to be labeled a kidnapper.

He can get quite stingy with his collections. But as the years go by he’s only kept his favorites and let her have the rest which he regifted to her through Christmas’s, birthdays, or achievements she’s made.

Encourages her (to an almost extreme level) to try out for EVERYTHING in school so she doesn’t end up boxed in like he was.

If him and his daughter fight he remains aloof around her but in his room has a panic attack.

Hates her friends even if they’re good. Can be very cocky if they end up rotten.

I don’t see Bill ever dating again because of the fear of them abandoning another kid onto him.

Once went 2 weeks without eating so his daughter had enough formula to survive.

Loves her smart ass behavior, hates how she gets into trouble

This man would absolutely rip a school to shreds if they called him out of work because they did something stupid.

Keeps pictures of his daughter hung up around the house. But hates getting his own taken.

Loudest guy at any game or celebration because he’s so proud of her.

Pete

Roughhouses with his kids no matter the gender. It “toughens them up,” as he says.

Pretty sexist when it comes to his kids dating. If his son brings home a girlfriend he’s proud and makes a lot of innuendos. Meanwhile, if his daughter brings home a boyfriend, he’s blatantly planning on murdering him.

Once when his kids were infants they fell asleep on him and he didn’t move. Failing to show up to work cause he was just watching them.

This man has so many half-children. (Like 6. Two of which are twins and mostly boys)

Named them all after horror movie icons or actors/actresses.

Unpopular opinion — Doesn’t care what they watch when they hit 13. But actively shields them from watching rated-r stuff 12 and under.

Makes it a tradition to take their freshly 13 year old kid out to watch their first rated r movie. Even though he doesn’t seem to be too excited, he’s just happy to see their kid look so smug feeling better than the other kids.

Taught them how to fight, cook, and other things at a VERY young age. (Think 5-7) In case one day he didn’t come home.

None of his kids went the football route and he’s very grateful for it. Doesn’t want them to get injured for life.

He’s like the dad who screams at his kids when they aren’t doing a specific dance routine correctly and will LITERALLY perform it.

Man’s pockets are almost empty cause of all the things his kids are in.

Sees his kids as toddlers still (insert Marceline and her dad clip)

Jerry

Terrified to mess it up for his son. The biggest helicopter parent ever.

Comes to every little thing his son does. Even if he doesn’t understand it.

Struggles to bond with his son because of different interests.

Stay-at-home dad. Makes a little money from Magic the gathering competitions.

Picture goofy and max from a goofy movie.

Is gonna bawl his eyes when he drops his son off at college.

Years after the Eltingville discourse (at the comic con) Bill reached out to Jerry to ask if he wanted to attend his daughter’s birthday party. Jerry happily accepted, even if his son was too old.

He once had a fight with his son that lead him into a panic attack where he screamed and called his son, “bill” by accident. Leading him to tell his son about what happened growing up. His son was much more empathetic after this incident.

Jerry cried when he found out his son wrote his 5th grade essay about him.

Tries to make each birthday of his sons better than the last.

Only time he’s ever gotten visibly angry. Was at a football game where his son was getting beat up by a player on the opposing team because of them losing. Jerry had to be held back and dragged off because of the fuss.

He was fine but it scared the hell out of everyone. For reference now everyone knows you don’t mess with his kid.

His son had the habit of gifting him random objects: rocks, gum, sticks. Jerry has them all stored up in the attic. Expect the live animals which he released when his son wasn’t looking.

Caught his son watching studio ghibli movies and felt so proud even though his son was embarrassed.

Josh

Thrilled to be a dad when he heard his wife got pregnant.

Let’s his daughter play with his hair. Didn’t want her messing with a greasy mop so he washes it. (Wanted to set a good example on hygiene as well)

Started to lose weight so he can get to see her grow up.

Very protective of his daughter and her interests.

Dressed up with her for Halloween to match costumes.

Hates Mac and cheese (after his incident in the comics) but his daughter loves it.

Struggles with insecurity but deals with it because of how confident his daughter is.

Woke up to her one day when she was just a year old. To her on his chest just staring in admiration. Cried in the shower that day and made it a daddy-daughter day out.

Embarrasses her in a teasing way.

Half of his collection is in a donation bin and the other half is in his daughter’s room.

Nervous but happy she took after his nerdy side.

He fixes her hair in the morning because he knows the pain of curly hair.

Had a panic attack when they were playing hide and seek and he couldn’t find her. She was under the sink the whole time giggling.

Very boo and sully coded relationship.

Wants to have more kids but isn’t financially stable enough.

Found out MONTHS later his daughter mimicked him a lot when she was a toddler. His walk, his speech, even the way they lay on the couch and watch movies.

His favorite home video is her playing house.

He’s a stern but lenient guy.

Against her dating, period. He knows how awful guys are and doesn’t want her around them.

Dreads the day she goes to high school.

Framed her first drawing of him, his wife and her together.

His daughter inherited his anxiety and eating disorder. He feels awful for it.

Spoils her rotten to an extent.

They love family photos.

[velvetvexations]

every discourse interaction i have on here is like this

me: i, as an autistic trans guy, am treated like a mentally ill woman and have not much male privilege over other people in my life. also i face unique problems as a trans guy

trans guy on tumblr who went on T at 15 and got top surgery at 16: haha don’t you know that we have extreme privilege. maybe you are too stupid to understand this. you are a stupid theyfab unlike me, the pinnacle of feminist, because i believe that women are always in danger around men no matter what. get some transfem friends you dumb twink. oh wait you don’t have any because you hate transfems

me: hey what do you all think of this

my various transfem friends, visibly horrified and aghast: holy fucking shit why is he talking to you like that???? jesus christ that’s insane what the fuck. how can he call himself a feminist when he doesn’t even acknowledge that trans men also face oppression like we do

like i dunno. maybe i am not the one who needs to talk to transfem people

I'm so grateful I'm not the only transfem friend who's been tapped on the shoulder by transmascs to give their opinion on this bullshit discourse we weren't previously aware of and reacted with horror.

[parallel--parallel]

I was trying to stay out of this discourse because usually fandom chooses to believe what they want to believe no matter what, but it doesn’t feel fair if I sit this out anymore as so much plainly wrong or misleading information is going around

If Joss following Trump means he supports him, does Joss following Biden (and Obama, and a whole lot of Thai progressive politicians) means he supports them too?

He made a cleanup now and unfollowed all politics as well as many non-controversial accounts, but my point stands. His follow list was much more mixed and diverse than people want to admit

About Tate, he unfollowed him YEARS ago. It’s a valid question to ask “why he followed him in the first place”, and here’s why: Before Tate became known as the trafficker piece of sh*t, he was a famous boxer. Back then Joss was into boxing himself and he literally followed every boxer ever

He still follows some boxers including Talbott who is ANTI-Tate and is vocal against toxic masculinity

Another thing, if Joss really was a raging MAGAt, would he be close friends with Luke who is strongly against Trump and right-wingers? Luke even follows AOC (for those not familiar with American politics, AOC is MORE left-wing and progressive than Kamala Harris)

And Gawin, bless his hermit soul, he rarely promotes himself, let alone politics. His sister tho, she posted ANTI-Trump memes on igs comparing Trump to Joffrey from Game of thrones and she follows ANTI-Trump commentators like thedailyshow with Jon Stewart

Then there’s p’Jojo who loves working with Joss and now p’Ark, I’ll just leave this here

I know all this because I follow leftist politicians on Instagram and I also follow GMM actors, directors and some of their friends and family so I see when someone follows politicians

Another thing, I noticed that Joss doesn’t even hang out with problematic GMM-tv actors and those who have shared bigoted views in the past. Closest people around Joss in that company seem to have left-leaning views, and obviously it doesn’t necessarily mean he has them too, I’m just saying, he being fr a MAGA and a bigot seems unlikely to me. He could be a normie centrist, or someone who finds craziness and stupidity of American right amusing (he didn't follow any Thai right-wingers and weirdos) but nothing more than that in my honest opinion. If out of 1285 accounts he follows, only 5-10 were these trash accounts, I think it's really a stretch assuming that's what he supports

In the end, everyone's feelings about this are valid and I'm not trying to shame those who don't feel comfortable supporting him. All I'm doing is sharing my personal take. I'm politically a leftie to the point that if I were more left I would turn into Karl Marx, and still, I'm willing to give Joss the benefit of doubt because he hasn't ever shared any bigoted or toxic opinion and I've been following him for many years. That is all

[nekropsii]

Hello! First of all, love your work. Wonderful takes and analysis on the alpha trolls, and also i’m a big fan of sovstuck - both the text and the awesome cool art. I love that every character gets introduced with their own unique artstyle, each oozing with character :)

I wanted to ask, - and please believe that i’m asking in good faith, - about your proship dni. I’ve been seeing discourse about ‘pro/anti ship’ for ages now, but i cannot for the life of me understand what the hell either side stands for. First i hear it’s about abusive or problematic (pedo/incest) ships in general, then it’s about the difference of portrayal/endorsement of those things, then it’s something else entirely and i can never fucking understand what the hell the issue is and why it is so heated.

By no means i’m asking you to speak for the whole discourse or even for the entire ‘side’ of it - if there’s one thing i got, it’s that no one can agree on their definition of what ‘their side’ stands for. But i would like to know what meaning you put into the terms, and what kind of ‘proship’ you would like to not interact with you; i trust that you know what you believe in and are able to put it to words in a way that makes sense and doesn’t contradict itself or common sense, as i sometimes see :”)

I.. understand that since the topic is so divisive, you may get a ton of bullshit in your ask box and notes, should you choose to answer this, both from people who disagree and those who choose to misinterpret what you say. So feel free to ignore this ask if you don’t want to deal with that. Still, i do hope i can someday gain some clarity on this topic haha.

Best wishes!! thanks for what you do :)

Hello! Thank you so much, the compliments mean a lot! They really keep me going, lol!!

First of all, congratulations on formulating the most normal ask adjacent to this topic. Since it's so god damn touchy, people have a tendency to start throwing rocks no matter what "side" they're on, and no matter if they know what the hell they're talking about or not. Frankly, some of the ruckus surrounding this circus act is embarrassing. On both ends. Second of all, while this isn't something I'm an expert in, I do know more than I'd like, so I'd be happy to give my perspective, even if it's potentially a bit limited/flawed.

Thirdly, I'm putting this under a cut, for anyone who doesn't want to read all that.

Content Warning: Discussions of Shipping Discourse, Sexual Assault, Abuse, Grooming, Incest, and Pedophilia.

Let me start this by defining what the Relevant Terms mean:

Shipping: The act of pairing two or more Characters together. Though the term is derived from "Relationship", and therefore is at its core - technically, theoretically - a Neutral Term, it - conversationally, colloquially - carries extremely heavy Romantic Connotations, with a strong implication that said Romance is found to be appealing - typically in the sense of being either Cute, or Sexy. Defining this is not me trying to condescend you - One of the key questions in this discourse is what it means to "ship" something, and whether or not the term implies the shipper is condoning the material inherent to the ship.

ProShip: Essentially means "All For All Shipping". It's the personal, discourse-based identity label equivalent to the phrase "Ship And Let Ship". There's a common misconception floating around that the "Pro" in "ProShip" stands for "Problematic", rather than simply being the positive antonym to the prefix "Anti". While I find this to be a failure of basic deductive reasoning, I can also understand how the conclusion was reached - Proshippers are most commonly associated with "Problematic Content"/"Problematic Ships", and they do tend to take pride in being "Problematic" themselves. Either way, the word "Problematic" is highly associated with them and often reclaimed by them. They also call themselves "Anti-Antis" (horribly stupid label, by the way), and "ComShip(pers)", with the "Com" being short for "Complex". To my knowledge, ComShip is a sect specifically trying to get away from the baggage that the term "ProShip" holds, and away from the very real predator problem within the ProShip Community. But I'm getting ahead of myself.

AntiShip: Essentially means "Against Certain Forms of Shipping". It actually used to be a term for people who were against specific individual ships, rather than a blanket discourse label - for example, rather than someone identifying as just an "Antishipper", they would typically label themselves as "Anti-VrisMeen", or a "VrisMeen-Anti", or whatever their focus was. An important thing to note is that Antis trend Young, and they trend Traumatized. They are typically Teenagers, and their stances are largely informed by their discomfort watching Adults Sexualize Characters who share their age or younger, and discomfort watching people Sexualize some kind of Trauma they've been through - and considering their general ages, it's not unlikely that that Trauma is either Fresh or Ongoing. This is not always the case, but it's such a large amount of the AntiShip crowd, and it's acknowledged so little, that it's worth mentioning. It's a very important piece of context to me.

The general Belief Systems of both sides, as they currently stand, are as follows:

ProShip: ==> Never Harass Anyone Over Their Ships: This is the bones of their beliefs, and where everything started. Essentially, it's rude and unnecessary to send people Harassment over a Ship they enjoy, because not only could you be doing something better with your time, but also it can be pretty difficult to tell the "How/What/Why" of someone's interest in such material. ==> All Forms of Shipping Should Be Allowed, No Matter The Content: This is the meat of their beliefs, and also where the arguing starts. It's exactly what it says on the tin - Anything Goes, including Rape, Abuse, Incest, and Pedophilia. This is why the label is so touchy - many people are extremely uncomfortable with the idea of Fandom going back to its habit of uncritically normalizing + romanticizing Rape, Abuse, Incest, and Pedophilia. Part of this is due to the fact that this uncritical normalization has led to genuine, tangible harm on people in Fandom Spaces, particularly Minors. ==> Being Problematic Is Based: The skin of their beliefs. Many people wrap up Shipping Discourse in terms that make it sound like engaging in it is Political Praxis, somehow. While your stance on Shipping Discourse can certainly be telling of your Political Beliefs, in the way that your stance on literally anything can be telling of that, calling Shipping Discourse on its own some kind of Radical Political Stance is... Deeply silly, and also keeps leading to people saying "Being into Incest/Pedophilia is Queer Nature", like, unironically. I keep seeing this happen. This part of it tends to be very... Spite-driven. ==> Fiction Is Not Reality: Basically their catchphrase - nothing that happens in fiction is real, and therefore has no tangible effect on reality.

AntiShip: ==> Please Tag Your Content Appropriately And Keep It Out Of The Reach Of Minors: The bones of their beliefs. Self Explanatory, typically followed up with "and if you can't do that, don't post/make it at all". To further illustrate this, I'd like to spark any reader's memory of the times where you couldn't Google search "Fluttershy" without being lambasted with hardcore porn. No additions of "R34", or "NSFW", just "Fluttershy". There was no SFW Filters. You just had to fucking fight for your life. Being a child on the Internet is and was extremely rough. There wasn't any Official Tag Filtering on Tumblr until... I think 2017. It was dark. ==> Abuse/Rape/Incest/Pedophilia Should Not Be Considered "Shipping": The meat of their beliefs. Essentially, these are extremely heavy, delicate topics meant to be treated with respect and tact, or not handled at all. This is not possible in Shipping Content. At least, not as we currently understand it, and will likely remain understanding in that way for years to come. They argue that Fanfiction is not ever going to be on par with Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita. Which is true. They also argue that it's impossible for most Fanfictions to treat these sensitive subjects with any respect, which is... Dubious, but also fair, considering the Sturgeon's Law of it all. ==> Ewwwww...: The skin of their beliefs. Disgust. It's a whole lot of disgust. Again, worth reiterating that the bulk of AntiShippers are quite Young and/or Traumatized, and the content they are reacting to tends to be Extreme, so a gut response of disgust is... Honestly, healthy. No 15 Year Old should be stumbling upon art of a child getting frisky with their dad and going "hell yeah, brother!". Though I wish they'd handle their disgust with more tact, I find that it's just... A fair response, given their age, what their backstory tends to be, and what content they tend to be reacting to is. ==> Fiction Affects Reality: Not necessarily their catchphrase, but definitely their counterpoint to the catchphrase of ProShippers. They do not say Fiction is real, just that it does literally have a tangible effect on reality, and point to cases where this is observable. The impact Jaws had on real life sharks is a favorite, as is The Birth of a Nation, and The Turner Diaries. And, of course, the ways that the works put out by ProShippers has tangibly affected the lives of others, especially children.

It is worth noting, I am neither of these things. I do not identify as a ProShipper, nor do I identify as an AntiShipper. I identify as a Horror Writer. I have "DNI: ProShip" in my bio because their stances make me the most uncomfortable, and I have been victimized personally by members of their crowd and the result of their beliefs.

I was Groomed by an Adult ProShipper when I was 14 Years Old. She used her ideologies as a ProShipper to excuse herself and the (sexual) content she forced me to Roleplay with her, and used it to pressure me into writing more and more extreme content. I did not want to do it even at the time - it made me uncomfortable - but she made the idea of saying "No" to her... Quite scary, and like I was the one in the wrong for being uncomfortable with it. After all, Fiction Isn't Reality, right? I am not the only person I know with this experiences. I have met and spoken to countless - and I mean countless - individuals who have had similar experiences with that crowd. The sheer distrust kids and teens tend to have towards them is learned through that crowd's propensity towards grooming them. Because the celebration and normalization of that content breeds comfortability with "the real deal", and comfortability with harboring predators.

I'm sure some ProShippers have noble intentions, and don't realize what the controversy is about. I'm sure some of them are deeply out of the loop, and still think it only means "Being Anti-Harassment". But I do not care enough to give people the chance, just... For the sake of my own sanity. You understand, I'm sure. I do not think that this rift between worlds is ever going to get closed, or that these sides are going to experience amicability, because the question is nuanced and about morality itself, and one side is full of defensive, traumatized teenagers trying to keep themselves and their friends safe from what they are perceiving as legitimate threats to their safety, and the other side is full of people who just wanna jerk it to weird porn.

I'm not personally comfortable with, like, any self-identified ProShipper being near me, just due to my own experiences. Some might try to identify me as one against my will, due to the fact that I am Anti-Harassment and a Horror Writer unafraid to touch upon every single one of the aforementioned sensitive topics, but... I am simply not one, because I don't identify that way, I don't believe in their beliefs, and they creep me out, lol.

My beliefs are that people should be able to write about whatever they want, as long as they handle things with the appropriate amount of care, and as long as they keep things tagged appropriately. I think that harassing people for shipping Stridercest in fucking 2024 is lame because you could be doing literally anything else with your time, and I think shipping Stridercest in fucking 2024 is lame because you could be doing anything else with your time. Like, come on, man, it's not even interesting. They're not even doing anything interesting with it. Where are the themes? There are no themes. It's just brothers mackin' on each other whitely. Come on.

No topic should be off limits, but you should at least give it the care and respect it deserves, and you should make it interesting. Nothing is interesting on its own. Rape is not interesting on its own. Incest is not interesting on its own. Abuse is not interesting on its own. Pedophilia is not interesting on its own. Taboo subjects are not interesting on their own. They're mundane evils that happen literally every day to regular people. In writing, they need to be paired with themes, and, hopefully, with good writing. People who have been through these things deserve not only to have their trauma represented, but handled with care, and also for it to be interesting to read. They deserve to have options. They deserve to have good literature to chew on, to help them digest and cope with their own trauma. It's difficult to do that when you feel invisible to everything but the camera lens of a Fetish Pornographer, and I know many people who are suffering with the fact that their traumas seem to only ever be represented or referenced in shitty pornography.

Sure, some people cope with their own trauma by sexualizing it. I know that's the case for some ProShippers, and their reason for being within that group. But it's certainly not everyone's method of coping, and it shouldn't be the only option... Which is why I'm advocating for safe, non-fetishized exploration of extreme themes.

I think the reason why the discourse is so unclear is because "ProShip" and "AntiShip" aren't very tangible, definite belief systems, and also the talking points are evolving and maturing over time. A few years ago, the beliefs of "Antis" definitely broadly leaned more heavily towards total rejection of those themes being present in any fiction, but their arguments seem to have matured lately into "the problem is the nature of the depiction, not the presence of depiction itself".

That's all I can think of saying right now that wouldn't just be me walking in circles. And don't worry, I can definitely take the hit. I'm not sure what here could be very arguable other than semantics, or maybe a history lesson or two.

Thank you for the ask! Hope this helps!

[hivemuthur]

I just wanted to say how appreciative I am that someone has called out the infantilization of Viktor’s character. It makes zero sense to me, and also kinda insulting as someone who struggles with illness and is also antisocial with that also being always paired with ‘oh you’re obviously sheltered and stupid right’

like he’s a literal scientist what do you mean he doesn’t at least know the basics of sex if we want to say he’s a virgin let alone freaky shit that I myself (as a virgin) know quite a bit about cause I researched (like what I’m sure a very smart scientist would do👀). it’s also kinda weird he can’t just be a normal sexual being like aside from dom/sub crap, he’s kinda fetishized in a lot of writing for both sides of the spectrum cause I personally don’t love the hardcore stuff on either side it’s super unsettling. That’s why your writing is enjoyable for me cause yes you lean more on the ‘dom Viktor’ spectrum, but you still have so much complexity in the dynamic that it’s not always who’s in ‘charge’ but the actual relationship between them and the softness you portray that they have for each other is just ‘chefs kiss’ I just think it’s really great writing honestly. So anyway I just wanted to say (the super long version) I appreciate your writing and opinions thank you <33

Hi Anon! Thank you, I'm very glad you enjoy my writing and that you think Viktor has some dignity in it, even when we put him in situations.

Infantilization IS a sexual fetish, and a valid one for that matter, and while it's not taken out of context and consensual on both sides it's pretty much ok, it just doesn't align with my own personal HC about Viktor -> the discourse in which his curiosity would be overshadowed by his disability. Disabled people are hot and fuck, and that's it. Like you, I also knew a lot before having sex for the first time. And yeh, it's just me, I don't like my men whimpering from the start, I like to see them whimper DESPITE being on the dominant side.

Furthermore, I think if we are to fetishize someone, fictional characters are the safest bet. And it's fun, and it's interesting. Personally, I don't read Dom/sub stuff as 'crap', it's a completely valid form of sexuality, just like vanilla. I don't like the 'normal' label on sex that is non-kinky, because it underlines that there is something wrong with the d/s dynamics. There isn't. It's totally ok to want to give away/take over control in bed and it doesn't really matter what form it adopts. It can be very healing. As long as both partners can consciously consent it's basically all good. When I write, I am mostly interested in the emotional aspect of it and how it impacts the rest of character's lives, but I know not everyone is and some people just want to read some kinky porn and that's fine, it's a form of entertainment. Reading smutty fanfiction is probably one of the very few ethical ways to consume pornography anyway.

My irk is out of context fetish-cruising and giving fetishes some false representations, but again - that's just me. You know, that part where characters feel guilty for having a fetish in the first place. I've learned to block accounts and hide tags that don't rock my boat. When I can't see it it can't hurt me. Also, 'hardcore' is a pretty subjective territory, it all depends on our adrenaline tolerance. I have done some crazy shit in my life and some of it stayed with me as my personal-favourite bed activities. I don't like sexual judgement and purity culture. Just as I don't judge people who are vanilla as 'repressed,' I don't want to be judged as 'unsettling' or 'weird.'

So yeh, I do fetishize Viktor. Mostly as a person who is curious about pushing boundaries and who is on the dominant side of things. I am good with him being represented as ace, sub, or a virgin, as long as it's done well, all of those representations are valid and people clearly need them if such media exists. And again, it's subjective, it's just my taste in writing/reading. I don't like him infantilized out of context, but I would read it as harmful if done with any character honestly.

But I live solemnly by fetishization of people. That thing where you are down bad for someone so hard, when you love them so much, everything they do is hot. And you take them apart and adore each part of them, from their toes to the tip of their head, and you stare at them when they are asleep because you can't believe how fucking lucky you are. What is it, if not fetish? Love is fetish to me.