#anti cullen

[dalishious]

Alistair vs. Cullen

It really annoys me when people act like Alistair and Cullen are the same character, when they are very different.

Alistair grew up with child neglect. When visiting Denerim, Eamon kept him in the kennels. At Redcliffe, he slept in the stables on a pile of hay. Alistair also recounts a time when he was locked in the dungeons for a day before someone came to get him out. And of course he also talks about how Isolde despised him, and “made sure the castle wasn't a home.” But is still convinced that Eamon is a good person and he deserved all that. Cullen had a very fortunate upbringing with a loving family who supported him and what he wanted in life.

Alistair never wanted to be a Templar; he was forced into joining the Order by Eamon. He is vocal about how much he despised this, and considers Duncan recruiting him for the Wardens as “saving” him from them. The only thing he says he enjoyed about Templar training was the educational component, which he did not receive previously. Alistair was a poor recruit because he frankly did not want to be there, and therefore did not take it very seriously. He saw practices like the Harrowing as horrifying, and deepened his dislike of being a Templar further. And as time goes on, he becomes even less of a supporter of the Order; he outright says Meredith is the biggest threat to Kirkwall in Dragon Age II, if made king of Ferelden. It was always Cullen’s dream to be a Templar, and would even force his younger sister to “play the apostate” for his “training” before being recruited. Cullen was an enthusiastic recruit who considered Templar training “all that he had imagined”, and “did not hesitate” in taking his vows. Even the Harrowing did not waver his devotion to the Order, which by Dragon Age II becomes downright fanatical and tyrannical, practically worshipping Meredith. (Though this was later attempted to be retconned in Dragon Age: Inquisition… just as poorly as all the other retcons in that game, taking the path of “just pretend he never said and did all those things!”)

There is a lot of dialogue from Alistair about how much he dislikes the Chantry. Cullen, on the other hand, is extremely faithful and the only criticism he ever has about the Chantry is that they don’t treat the Templars well enough.

Alistair has a good sense of humour—in fact, it’s one of his biggest coping mechanisms. Cullen wouldn’t know a joke if it hit him in the face.

The player can disagree with Alistair on every turn. He is presented as sometimes being right, and sometimes being wrong, like most people. (Side note: more than that, you can be downright verbally, emotionally, and physically abusive to Alistair. Holy shit, I didn’t even realize how bad it can get until reading through the dialogue in the toolset, because I’ve never picked those options in game. I was honest to god flabbergasted and very uncomfortable through much of it.) The player rarely has the chance to even mildly disagree with Cullen. On the rare occasion you do, the dialogue is painted as if the player is being an unreasonable asshole, and he never even addresses what they say. (Example.)

The only reason I think people are capable of mistaking them for another is because fandom likes to donate Alistair’s personality onto Cullen. That and the the ever-frequent whitewashing of Alistair doesn’t help matters. But I’m not even a Cullen fan and I think it’s a disservice to both of them to act like they’re just Alistair and Alistair 2.0, honestly.

[merrilldidnothingwrong]

best article I've seen about Cullen

They are not even remotely being shy and im loving it

He is part of an army that regularly tears children from their homes and lobotomizes anyone who doesn't fall in line. He is treated better because he is not them, and it’s a system he is complicit in. There is nothing cute about his crush on one of his inmates.

[euryalex]

"wyll ravengard is like cullen rutherford-" correction. actually. wyll would side with the mages <3

[kirkwalldrama]

this man got a whole romance, redemption arc and a glow up. why. he is literally the worst.

[origins-cheese-wheel]

It's strange how hated Loghain is in the fandom but how loved Cullen is.

Loving Loghain elicits disgust from most people, while loving Cullen is generally accepted. Even though both of them have committed horrendous crimes. But the difference is that Cullen is constantly coddled by the fans and the devs.

Whereas Loghain is not, you can give him a punishment that fits his crimes. The "best" case scenario for him is getting forcefully conscripted into the Grey Wardens and getting shipped off to Orlais, of all places. The "worst" - well, you get to literally behead him, in front of everyone attending the Landsmeet and no one will oppose you except Anora who just got sprayed by a gallon of her father's blood.

Meanwhile you can't even be particularly rude to Cullen, let alone call him out on his bullshit. And he is never truly faced with consequences for his genuinely abhorrent actions. Also the "redemption" he gets is frankly nonexistent.

Yeah Loghain was a main villain...but so was Cullen...?? Did his fans collectively forget about that?

Yeah Cullen has a tragic backstory...but so does Loghain? Does that excuse their actions? No, but a whole lot of Cullen fans try to bring all that into a conversation when someone criticises their fave.

So allow me a similar luxury. Not to excuse Loghain's actions of course but to get on even footing with everyone trying to wave away Cullen's crimes via invoking the power of a tragic backstory:

During the Orlesian invasion Loghain's family lost their farm due to increasing taxes, essentially making them homeless.

The resistance they put up was futile in the face of the Orlesian soldiers who easily overpowered them and subsequently made Gareth and Loghain watch them violate Loghain's mother before brutally murdering her.

After fleeing Oswin, they were on the run until Maric unknowingly lead the Orlesians into their camp. Loghain ran away with him, however to buy them time, amongst others Gareth sacrificed himself.

Loghain had no siblings and both his parents were dead at this point.

He had that whole situationship with Rowan that he could not realistically pursue in good conscience as she was betrothed to Maric. This put a strain on Loghain's relationship with them both.

In 9:25 Dragon, Maric disappeared. Loghain tirelessly searched for his closest friend for two years.

Shortly after, in 9:28 Dragon, Loghain also lost Celia, his wife.

I'd say he lived around 80% of his life in utter misery. Not that it nullifies anything vile he has done but since so many people love to bring up Cullen's past while defending him...

So let's not be hypocritical.

Either be hellbent on hating Cullen too- or have mercy for Loghain as well.

[kwop-kilawtley]

In Twilight, esp new moon and eclipse, there are two Bella’s and it’s quite easy to figure that out once you reread the books more than once. There’s Bella, the natural progression of her character and the Stephenie Meyer insert. They are constantly contradicting each other. If the natural progression of Bella stayed consistently written, the ending wouldn’t be what it would be but also meyer was too much of a coward to write forever dawn I think she was just too lazy tbh. This is really why BD doesn’t make sense. But the Meyer Bella was forced to conform to motherhood and marriage at a young age and be forced into a weird ass cult with strange family relations who really didn’t understand her. I feel like with Smeyers mormon views, I feel natural human Bella was “secular” Bella and Cullen Bella was Meyer Mormon Bella.

Some see this the opposite tho, they think that Bella would be “conforming” by staying herself but honestly I think that’s a bad take. Why should she have to change everything about herself to fit into her “true family.” It doesn’t make sense to me. Because the thing is, it’s all written BY SMEYER. Who is wanting you to think it’s right for Bella. She is trying to make it seem like the right thing and we’re in Bella’s POV so ofc you may not see it right away. I really feel like Smeyer found escapism in writing Twilight with Jacob being the one she really wanted but SHOULDNT be with. Sort of like a “temptation” or something.

[pillowprincessshaxx]

Sitting here, thinking about the fact that, in game, Cole gets more vitriol for his actions against mages than Cullen.

This thought is then often followed by the self-reminder Cole takes more responsibility for his actions against mages than Cullen

[perkeleen-lavellan]

Didn't wanna coopt someone else's post so making my own.

So, Cullen critical thoughts below

I hesitate to say it, but I would have perhaps actually liked Cullen, if the writers had leaned in to the terrible things he had done, and either shown us that he was now finally truly remorseful, like actually shown the weight of- and value of human life finally hit him. Don't just have him be bitter because the Chantry and the Templars and Meredith fucked him over with lyrium and Kirkwall. I want to see him finally realise that all the people he hurt with his own hands had lives. Families and dreams and feelings of fear and pain and I want to see him weep for the loss of all of it.

Or, show us that he was not remorseful. That he still believed on some level that the fault did not lie in him or the Templar order, it always came from somehwre else. Have him refuse to take that responsibility for his own part in it (Inquisition already kind of does...) It was the Chantry, it was the existence of mages that was the reason he had to do those things. What if he stayed in denial, and what if the game acknowledge that that's... wrong. That's not good.

It could have been interesting to have a character like that and maybe contrast him with a character who did find the faults in himself and the Templar order, like say, Samson. Let's lean in more to his characterisation too, lets take it all the way there!

I feel like in a vacuum it would have been hella cool even, to have a kind of plot twist where it turns out that one of your allies could not overcome the moral and emotional burden of having been a part of atrocities in systematic abuse, but the 'villain' of the story could. What if the 'good guy' was just a dude who had done too much wrong to be able to admit it even to himself. What if he was stuck in this half formed state, never able to fully realise the better person he could be, because the fear of who he is now is too paralysing. Instead he stays in denial, where the world can still make sense and he can still pick up the pieces of himself.

And what if the villain was just a dude, equally too far gone, but the difference there was that he took that weight on himself. He acknowledged what he had done, and maybe it broke him in some ways, but didn't it also make him finally break free from serving those in whose name he hurt people?

Since BioWare seems so obsessed with this whole "but maybe the mages did bad things too" victim blamey questioning who's in the right narratives, well. There it is. There's your "what if" plot twist. There's your story with gray morality, an ultimatum where there truly is no good choice. Your return to the days of Bhelen vs Harrowmont. And what did you do with it?

Nothing.

[restinslices]

(I swear to y’all, imma go back to Mortal Kombat. But I have to rant. Imma pretend it’s the early 2000s and rant about Twilight. If you’re pro any of the Cullens, don’t even read this)

I’m not saying Jacob should’ve kissed Bella, but my thing is this; Jacob kisses you and you call him a dog and say you hope Edward kills him. Edward has done foul shit the ENTIRE SERIES and you let him slide repeatedly. There’s this part where Bella gets mad and says something like “at least Edward an act like an adult”. Bitch. He IS AN ADULT. What do you mean? Bella is way more harsh when it comes to Jacob and I don’t get why she holds so much anger towards this child and holds him to this high standard but has none of these feelings when it comes to the old ass adult she’s with. Since I’m typing, Stephanie Myers is weird and idc what y’all say. I remember Bella described Leah as beautiful in an EXOTIC way. MA’AM? It feels like she realized how asshole-ish the Cullens are and tried to make the wolves seem worse but all I’m thinking is “they’re definitely in the right when it comes to not liking the Cullens”.

The wolves don’t like vampires because they’re a safety risk. The Cullens being there (keep in mind, they’re rich enough to leave and never come back) is triggering these young ass people to turn into wolves. The Cullens don’t like the wolves because?? They have no valid reason. Edward constantly says the wolves are dangerous and yeah, they’re not the safest to be around but compared to vampires they’re a lot safer. Bella has only been harmed by vampires and only the vampires have tried to end her life. James, Laurent, Jasper, Victoria, the new born army that’s forming, the Volturi. She’s only been in danger because of the wolves once. Like, I don’t get how Stephanie expects us to agree with Edward when there’s proof that the wolves are way safer. Not 100% safe but better than vampires. And while I love Seth, I swear Seth is the “you’re not like the others” character. They only like Seth because he doesn’t hold animosity towards them as if that animosity isn’t valid. It’s giving “you’re not like other blacks, you talk proper” (ik he’s not black, it’s an example). I’m finishing the books because I’m too deep to quit but I wish they let Victoria finish the job.

[bumblewarden]

lmao

[ladyhighever]

to valiant hearts sing / of victory waiting

The Herald of Andraste is Aelinor Trevelyan, a noble-born mage, once Ostwick Circle's most shining crown jewel, brilliant and bold and beautiful and born to do great things.

When she was seventeen, she was made Tranquil.

When she woke up in a jail cell, she was not.

[dalishious]

I sent one ask prematurely, here is the real ask I meant to send: Here is something a Cullen fan claimed: “ Cullen, if you talk to him: “The things I did were wrong, my trauma wasn’t an excuse, and I’m trying to become a better person.” People who never talk to Cullen: “Wow I can’t believe Cullen shows no remorse for his actions, uses his trauma as an excuse, and makes no effort to become a better person.”. Thoughts on that post?

Same bullshit that led me to do the entire TemplarTryst series. I swear to god those people played a different game.

[merrilldidnothingwrong]

Cassandra recruiting Cullen would've made sense if the writers had the backbone to write the story honestly. Instead of the "Templars are actually the good ones and Grey Wardens are bad" nonsense we got, they should've followed the tread created in the previous games.

Cassandra is VERY pro-Chantry, pro-Templars and anti-mage. She is the worst choice for Divine because she just puts everything back the way it was. The logical path for Cassandra's character would be for her to recruit Cullen for one reason only: He is anti-mage. Extremely so. And to Cassandra, who probably hopes that this new Inquisition will be like the one of old, he is the right type of person for that job.

A Templar to go against the pro-mage attitude of both Leliana and Josephine. Bring back the Inquisition of old. Restore the Chantry to the way it was.

But the writers were cowards so we get this nonsense instead.

Honestly, yes. The fact of the matter is that Cassandra and Cullen are very similar as characters. And that doesn't speak well of Cassandra.

So much of Cassandra's character and story in-game very much parallels what the writers claim Cullen's story is. A Seeker who joined the order full of fire and belief, who committed horrible acts in the name of those beliefs, but after times of having those questioned, those beliefs are shattered by a revelation. And yet.

Just like Cullen, Cassandra doesn't do any true growing in the events of the game. While she's horrified when she learns the truth of Seekers and the Rite of Tranquility, that doesn't cause any massive change in her worldview, and more significantly, it doesn't offer the opportunity for the player to push her to change her worldview, the way an earlier DA game might have. Indeed, the game also goes out of its way to excuse and ignore everything Cassandra's done as a servant of the Chantry, in order to sell its centrist viewpoint.

This isn't to utterly disparage Cassandra and to say that she's beyond any kind of growth or improvement, or to make people feel guilty about liking her before understanding the context that Inquisition goes out of its way to hide. Cassandra was my first romance in Inquisition, before I really figured out what the fuck was going on with the story.

And ultimately, I think that Bioware's determination to hide and misrepresent the truth about characters like Cullen and Cassandra and the Chantry in general is what angers me the most. It betrays Bioware's unwillingness to commit to the deep story of the dangers of religions as political institutions, or to admit that the people in power aren't everything they're cracked up to be. (I'll probably expand on this point in another post now that I'm thinking about it)

To sum it up, yes, anon, you're completely right. The game and the story would have been much better served if Bioware had committed to acknowledging Cassandra and Cullen's pro-Templar stances being what they are. - Mod Alistair

[thiefbird]

Loghainfuckers rise up, I guess???

He's just so much more ~interesting~ than Cullen! Cullen is boring and I would hate him simply on the principle of bioware retconning shit to make him more likeable so he could be romanced. Frankly, Cullen would be a better character(not a better PERSON, but a more interesting character) if they'd let him still have killed those kids instead of just. Making it go away??

Like. Loghain is Not A Good Person. I would go as far as to say he is A Bad Person. But at least he's INTERESTING. Cullen is boring, and infuriating.

And that's why I'm backing the Loghainfuckers.

[kirkwalldrama]

it's disturbing that you basically CAN'T be rude to cullen in da2 because bioware WON'T LET YOU DO THAT. when you talk to him in the gallows later in the game hawke calls him a friend no matter what. they tried so hard to paint him as a good guy even tho he didn't see mages as people here. and even in that conversation all the hawke's dialogue lines are completely vanilla. bioware, besties, you don't surprise me with your anders-hate, y'all all about anti-violence politics, but not when opressors actually opress.

cullen's trauma is about uldred accident in a circle, his whole romance is about how much of a ptsd he's got, he's portrayed as a poor sweet puppy boy, yet mages who are locked up, assaulted and anihillated do not deserve a redemption arc?

[origins-cheese-wheel]