#anti peggy carter

[luna-rainbow]

I know a lot of fans are upset about What If and its continual attempts at making Steggy a thing.

But I don't see it as Disney has won? I came into this fandom in 2021, long after Endgame stopped any chance of further canon Steve and Bucky interactions, and I know of fans who came into the fandom long after that.

Because the magic is still there. Because CATWS was a genuinely well-written story and a well-presented movie. The plot, the themes, the characters, the action, the music -- all of it culminating in a climax where the main character reverses 70 years of manipulation and torture with a simple phrase, and in doing so, saves both him and the person he says it to.

Whether you choose to see them as romantic or platonic or anything else, that unbreakable bond is there.

What If and Rogers Musical are cheap knockoffs trying to capitalise on the same magic without understanding what created the magic in the first place. It's the sacrifice and the loyalty, the shared loss and shared experience, the same wanderlust and same homesickness. It is the thematic relevance and the narrative significance. It is the fact that Bucky was tied to Steve's identity as much as Steve is tied to Bucky's, that every key beat in Steve's journey to becoming Captain America and upholding his values involved Bucky.

The real tragedy about the Steve-Peggy story - as a Peggy fan had pointed out actually - is that even in What If, her story remains subservient to Steve. Not What If Steve, but canon Steve. Unlike other stories in What If, where a simple change leads to a butterly effect of an unrecognisable future, the direct effect of copying Steve-Bucky's interactions beat for beat is that "Peggy" becomes the least consequential factor in the story. "She is just as good as Steve", the writers want to say, "she brought forward feminism by 2 decades". But the reality is…she continues to be a non-character and a non-factor, because even in a timeline as significant as a woman becoming the first super soldier, the universe barely changes. It simply fills in the holes with other characters and continue on the same inevitable path.

Bad stories are forgettable, good stories last forever. Remember when we had that hilarious poll against OFMD and a bunch of people came out of the woodworks to vote for Stucky even though they had long left the fandom? Because a good story has magic, and it's left an indelible print on many people's lives.

Disney had already lost the day Steve uttered, "I'm with you to the end of the line, pal." The characters belong to us now.

[lavenderpanic]

Steve "I won't stop until all of HYDRA is dead or captured" Rogers skipping off into the sunset to marry the woman who knowingly held open the door for Nazis to infiltrate SHIELD is like. Possibly one of the worst decisions ever made ever.

[imposterogers]

mcu peggy carter is so fucked up bc they wanted her to be a # girlboss. which they attempted by having her shoot at steve when another girl flirted with him (not even him flirting with another girl) and canonically recruiting n@zis into shield (an organization made in cap’s honor) including the scientist arnin zola who she knew experimented on steve rogers best friend. like y’all couldn’t have figured something else out or…

[queerextremity]

BTW FUCK PEGGY AND HOWARD

[buckymilf]

marvel for the love of god PLEASE STOP forcing down steve and peggy down our throats, we get it, you ruined his character so they could be together now let us REST, we can't take this anymore.

[steveandbuckysdaughter]

Steve not being brainwashed but still not giving a crap about Peggy’s pleads and leaving her is top tier and I was laughing my ass off

While Bucky’s wrinkled ass made the HYDRA stomper hesitate even before Steve went back to normal and I LOVE it

[booksandabeer]

Ramblings on Fandom: Peggy Carter, Steve Rogers, Delusional Shippers, and Alleged Misogyny

So with the release of Season 2 of What If…? emotions are once again running high, the outrage is outraging, and people are up in arms about the whole Captain Carter situation. While I do think that some reactions are a little overblown, even needlessly aggressive in tone to the unfortunate detriment of their otherwise convincing arguments, I share the confusion and frustration about the sudden centering of a long-dead & never excessively popular character, the sidelining of the Steve-Bucky friendship, and the as-inexplicable-as-it-is-total exclusion of Sam Wilson as Captain America. However, I’m not here to talk about the show because (1) I haven’t watched this season and have no plans to (why waste time torturing myself with something I know I’ll hate?) and (2) other people have already written dozens of metas about it, so what could I possibly add at this point.

What I do want need to talk about (lest I explode) is something that has irritated me for a long time and that is now happening again: Every time someone even mildly criticizes Peggy Carter, expresses doubts about her suitability as a heroine, or even just questions her disproportionate importance to the franchise post-EG, inevitably a certain section of fans will come out of the woodwork to immediately throw around accusations of misogyny and yell about how we’re all just a bunch of delusional Stuckies who are mad that she got "in the way" of our ship. Sigh.

This is gonna be a long one, so I’ll put it under a cut. Rant incoming. You've been warned. If you don't want to read, simply scroll on by.

First of all, let me state very clearly that I’m not debating the existence of misogyny and sexism in fandom spaces—or in the media from which these fandoms originate. At all. It exists, it’s a thing, I’m not denying that. Which is exactly why it frustrates me endlessly to see these accusations thrown around as a gotcha! argument to shut down any and all critical debate around a female character. All it does in the end is escalate rhetoric and radicalize attitudes.  

In the case of Peggy Carter, specifically her treatment by Stucky shippers, I’ve always found 'misogyny as a motive' to be a largely unsubstantiated accusation.¹ Now, I neither presume nor do I want to speak for the entirety of Stuckynation, so I will not claim that there aren't corners of the fandom where people discuss her in ways that I find off-putting and deeply unserious, but I will say this: If you genuinely believe that disliking one (1) fictional female character equals “hating all women” and wanting to suppress and marginalize their presence in fiction and real life alike—then I think we need to take that word away from you until you’ve learned its true meaning.

You might also want to ask yourself how exactly reducing a female character to a mute trophy wife or a heroine who has to act out her love interest’s recycled storylines helps your feminist fight.

As to the “standing in the way of your ship” part of the argument. Very simply put: No character can stand in the way of something if there never ever was “a way” to that something to begin with. “Being mad” implies that there was a reasonable expectation that wasn’t met, a substantive hope that was crushed. Now, I’ve said this before and I’ll gladly say it again a million more times: No Stucky shipper in their right mind ever truly thought that there was even the slightest chance that Marvel Studios owned by the Walt Disney Company would allow Steve “Captain America” Rogers and Bucky “Winter Soldier” Barnes to be canonized as an explicitly romantic pairing in their billion dollar franchise. Be serious. That was never in the cards. I wish we all lived in a world where it was, but we don’t, and it wasn’t. The best we could ever hope for was for Steve and Bucky to get a good, satisfying, in-character ending. And if, in Steve’s case, that would’ve included hints (or more) about a possible rekindling of his, uh, aborted romance with Sharon—then so be it. But we never got any of that. The characters never got any of that. Instead they sent Steve into 1950s suburban hell, literally trapped him behind a white picket fence, and condemned him to a life of passivity and lies, all so he could be married to a woman he barely knew a long time ago in a completely different world; who built and ran a top-to-bottom Hydra-infested organization, but apparently never noticed that there was anything wrong with her life's work. For decades. Great. As for Bucky—well, we’ve all seen the devastatingly grim-faced, utterly lonely, and deeply sad version of him that was presented to us in TFATWS. Happy endings all around, I guess.

So. Am I mad that Steve didn’t get to ride into the rainbow-colored sunset with Bucky at the end of EG? No. Because that was never going to happen anyway. Would I have been mad had he ended up with Sharon or another female character in the 21st century? Also no. Granted, I wouldn’t have been ecstatic about it, but mad? No. But am I mad that Steve ended up with this specific female character under these specific circumstances as presented in canon? Fuck yeah, I am.

The thing is: I personally believe Steve and Peggy to be fundamentally incompatible when it comes to the way they view the world and their respective places in it; their morals and values; their capacity for compassion and empathy; their ability and willingness to compartmentalize, compromise, and collaborate with people and institutions whose ethics and/or politics do not align with their own. I have a real hard time believing that a relationship between these two (or worse, a hasty marriage) could be either happy or long-lasting.

I don’t believe Peggy to be inherently evil, I don’t hate her, I simply think she operates within a different moral framework than Steve (and even genuinely believes it to be a righteous one).² Your mileage may vary, but I personally happen to find that framework reprehensible, even indecent, and ultimately dangerous. After all, over the course of the 20th century, we have seen exactly where that kind of “the ends justify the means” brand of pragmatism leads—over and over again. Not to mention that the people who use this line of argument to defend characters like Peggy (or real-life politicians for that matter) never seem to want to look too closely at who gets to define what "the ends" are in the first place and who decides when they've finally been met.

(Never. The answer is never.)

And to be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with depicting, and even centering a narrative around a morally (dark)gray character—oftentimes it’s actually the more interesting option—but you cannot at the same time claim that they are purely good and should be only admired as such when their actions literally tell an entirely different story.

So, no. I will not accept Peggy Carter as the shining aspirational heroine that the MCU so badly wants to sell her to me as—while simultaneously continuing to reveal things that paint an increasingly darker picture of her character. And I will certainly not celebrate seeing one of my favorite characters of all time—whose defining trait was that he couldn't ignore "a situation pointed south"; who used to fight for the little guy and against the establishment; who once said about the very organization that Peggy Carter helped build that it was so corrupt, it all needed to go—rendered morally inert for some hollow happy ending that may as well be a conservative’s wet dream full of false nostalgia for an America that never really existed. I cannot find it in me to be anything less but mad about that.

But that does not make me a misogynist. It does not make me a delusional shipper. It makes me someone who looks at what the MCU has been telling me about Peggy Carter for years now—over and over again—and takes it at its own word.

--------

¹ If you’ve actually read a a fair number of Stucky(!) fanfics you will have noticed that the reverence afforded to and "page time" devoted to her character and her relationship with Steve is somewhat disproportionate to anything that's backed up by canon—well, up until EG, where she was suddenly reanimated as The Great Love of Steve’s Life—and in my experience, it's highly unusual for any fandom to put so much (mostly) positive attention on another character, let alone a potential love interest that is not part of the endgame ship.

² I also want to emphasize that if you love Peggy and she's your fave: good for you! I genuinely have no beef with you. People can agree to disagree. All I ask for is that we maybe stop willfully ignoring the less savory aspects of her character. You don't need to pretend she's perfect to justify your affection for her. I LOVE Steve, and yet I have no problem conceding that he is FAR from perfect.

[valkyrieandstrangeridingaragorn]

"Ever since he debuted as Captain America in The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Sam Wilson has been missing from the MCU. That is strange, as the original Captain America was a constant presence in the franchise. "What If...? season 2 has concluded without a single appearance from Sam Wilson as Captain America. "From The Falcon and the Winter Soldier to Captain America: Brave New World, Captain America will have been missing from the MCU for four years. "Both seasons of the animated series and the live-action Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness combine for a total of three projects that feature Hayley Atwell's Captain Carter. "The MCU has chosen to prioritize Captain Carter's character over Sam Wilson, leaving a four-year gap of no Captain America in the franchise."

[navybrat817]

What if...The writers of "What If...?" focused on a character besides Peggy Carter?

[captainwidowspring]

I am currently writing a paper on the music of the Captain America trilogy, and this has caused me to notice an exceedingly interesting detail that I previously missed. In The First Avenger, after Peggy shoots at Steve, a melody that sounds very similar to the Captain America theme plays. This repeats twice: one time when she puts the gun down and stalks away, and again while Steve and Howard are so shocked by what Peggy just did that they stare after her even as they continue their conversation.

This is quite disgusting, as it rather implies that Peggy just did something noble and honorable, or something that Steve would approve of, when this is not even close to the case. Steve would never be so thoroughly irresponsible and reckless, nor would he approve of such pettiness, or partake in it himself. Indeed, it is clear to see how betrayed Steve felt when he was cautiously ensuring that she was done shooting at him. The music also disingenuously tries to reframe the characters' reactions to her outburst as positive. The fact that the almost-Captain-America theme continues after Peggy leaves Steve and Howard staring after her endeavors to make it seem like their reaction is because they're impressed, rather than because they are stunned and dismayed as is far more likely.

And what's worse, this is not even the only time that the music disagrees with how the characters are acting in its haste to glorify Peggy and promote Steggy. Later in the movie, after Peggy kisses Steve without his consent, a happy little horn melody plays, even though it is pretty clear that the kiss upset Steve, and did not please him. The music seriously did a surprising amount of heavy-lifting for Steggy.

But in any case, this does help explain why so many people have no problem with Peggy assaulting Steve, and even see it as a good thing: the music is encouraging them to see it that way. This is yet another example of how influential framing can be.

[aliitvodeson]

so Nick Fury made Director of SHIELD sometime between 1995 and 2008. He's a regular field agent in 1995, so personally I'd put it close to his interactions with Tony in 2008, but I'll split it in the middle and say 2002.

That means he's Director of SHIELD for roughly 12 years before he starts getting curious about what Pierce is doing, begins digging and Hydra attempts to kill him.

Meanwhile Peggy is Director/Founder/High Command from 1950ish to at least 1989, and she gets to retire, relax, and die peacefully in old age

So we don't even have to unpack all the Hydra scientists it's implied she recruited. Because how on EARTH did she run things for FOUR TIMES as long, and didn't see enough to make her question things??? While it was a SMALLER organization? She really didn't ask a single damn question that ticked Hydra off in fourty years? Not one?

Peggy Carter is either incompetent, or complicit.

the way I've seen multiple Peggy stans attack Nick Fury for not noticing faster- the racism is real

[luna-rainbow]

I did not just see with my own two eyes Captain Coloniser “would have made a better Cap replacement than Falcon”.

— Forbes on Carter appearing in Secret Wars

Honey, one recruited Nazis into her organisation, the other one came back out of retirement specifically to burn it down.

Sam has actually fought alongside Steve (no, pushing papers in a room doesn’t count), fought alongside the Avengers, saved the world and back, and you would rather a White rich upper-crust English woman be Captain America because…??

[lavenderpanic]

It's so insane bc I watched Endgame in theaters right when it came out, I have had yearssss to get over Steve leaving Bucky. Getting into the fandom and getting more into sambucky has been like. A good way to find people who feel the same way about Endgame and also engage with happier stucky or sambucky narratives so I've kinda gotten past it but like. This bullshit "if stucky was het it would be canon" thing that Marvel is doing is soooo frustrating because it really has become so obvious in retrospect that the people who wrote and produced Endgame were so horrified, so petrified that people might think Steve could be queer that they needed to shoehorn in the most out of character ending for a beloved character and absolutely ruin the arc that was started in CATFA and continued in every one of his appearances since.

And ALSO like??? The message it sends about trauma survivors?? Genuinely, the message of Steve leaving Bucky for Peggy was "even if you think you can be loved and redeemed despite your trauma, the people who love you more than anything in the world might (will?) leave you for someone easier" like??? How devastating. It is so abundantly clear that Marvel doesn't know how to deal with characters like Natasha or Bucky who have done bad things in the past. Their answer for Natasha was "have her kill herself to make up for the shit she did in her past" and I'm 90% sure that's gonna be the MCU ending to Bucky's character arc as well.

[imposterogers]

It's been awhile since I watched TWS, but I remembered the framing of N*zis infiltrating SHIELD was so weird bc it was like, oh no!! how could this have happened?? Right under our noses?? and it's like, you literally just showed Howard and Peggy recruiting a known N*zi into the organization, like, they weren't ignorant or innocently naive, and then it got even weirder in Endgame when Steve knew what she had done and there were probably N*zis right there at the base, but he just stared longingly at her through the window of her office 💀

no it’s so weird it’s not even a trojan horse situation because peggy and howard KNOWINGLY hired hundreds of hydra scientists (including the LEAD hydra scientist who worked closely with the red skull) and they had the audacity to act surprised when hydra infiltrated ? you let them in the front door!!!!

[graendoll]

What if...? season 2 really solidified my absolute hatred of Captain Peggy Carter.

Where the fuck is Sam Wilson? Marvel really needs to stop pushing this colonizing white lady as their big girl boss lead. She's not interesting.

I 100% believe the showrunner for What if...? is living out her self insert fantasies. Which hey, a good self insert has its time and place but not when you're the executive producer of a whole ass show.

And I repeat, where the FUCK IS SAM WILSON? I know we're waiting for Cap 4 and he got his series with Bucky but this bitch keeps showing up and Marvel has been radio silent on Sam.

And yeah, I'm a terrible feminist because I can't stand Captain Carter being so unbelievably overpowered and stealing the story beats and even ACTUAL LINES from the existing characters. Yes absolutely. That's definitely what this is. 🙄

[beep-cares]

still think ab the fact they made steve go marry a nazi apologist and probably fuck up some sort of time stuff ALL because they didnt want the public to ship him with the man he has done everything for and is very obviously in love with (who is based off a gay jew)

They made STEVE ROGERS marry a NAZI APOLOGIST instead of a man based off a GAY JEW