#as a 2ndary plot

[quizmasterfred]

Thinking about Flux and Thamsin again, so as per usual I'm dealing with it by typing a full stream-of-consciousness into the nothing :D

Enjoy! (or, more likely, don't 🤷‍♀️ it's really long and I am prone to rambling)

Let me preface this by saying this is NOT a Dan Lewis Hatepost. He's fine (and John Bishop is a darling), but I think he's a bit bland and takes up a lot of screen time that could better serve our main duo if we just... didn't have to include Dan.

In Hallowe’en Apocalypse, he’s great. He’s the hook 13 + Yaz need to get into Karvanista’s ship and kickstart the main plot.

WotS

he gets sent back to Liverpool immediately, infiltrates a sontaran ship, and Skypes 13 to shut down their Tempura Shrimp plan.

Either, you could then have 13 (at the end of the episode) make sure he’s okay and alive, Karvanista says the Lupari are taking care of earth for a bit, and Dan now stays home, because y’know this is all really fucked and he’s some normal guy who shouldn’t be whisked off to fight ancient paranormal demons when he’s barely aware of space travel.

Or K takes over his role. Towards the end of HA, 13+Y can drop Dan off before they go looking for the flux. In WotS, K can board the Sontaran ship as he does in canon anyway, except instead of looking for Dan, he’s now there on an active mission to sabotage the Sontarans, and isn’t worried as much about Dan, since the Lupai have changed tack to defending earth rather than their original 1-to-1 human taxi plan. This allows 13+K to get on each others nerves a bit as they work together to stop the Sontarans, and interrogate their (forgotten) relationship from the Division days before 13(+Y) goes AWOL for three episodes.

Either way, Dan is now out of the picture. He’s a fun celebrity cameo/comedic relief role that doesn’t outstay his welcome and is just there to get the ball rolling. In the Karv-centric version of WotS, we get more info on Division, which is the Doctor’s driving goal for this series.

O,UT

Canon!Dan spends this episode in the time storm with everyone else. Without him, you can explore the other three characters more; that simple. Yes, Dan’s face is taking Karvanista’s spot in 13’s visions, but since we never find out the identities of Y+Vinder in those visions, we can cut one face without any change to the plot.

When they’re out of the storm, Dan has a moment with Holo-Diane in the Passenger, but this could have been one of the Khans! The Ravagers clearly know enough about Yaz, and that extra strain on 13+Y’s relationship would be more interesting than with Dan. Canon!13 yells at Yaz in her post-storm delirium, and now Yaz gets to push back because her family is in danger because of her relationship to the Doctor, which isn’t something the Khans have faced up to this point.

The Khans are SO well set-up in s11/12:

Sonya is the one who saved her sister when she ran away, and now Yaz has “run away” again in a different way

Najia will not stop interrogating 13+Y’s relationship, which creates tension with Yaz not wanting to freak her family out with the knowledge of aliens etc

Hakim is a CONSPIRACIST whose daughter has now run off with an actual real time-travelling alien!!!

But they don’t get the payoff for any of it. Each one of them is primed for an incredible reaction to the Doctor/Time Travel/Aliens reveal and we never get it! If we can’t get the full family episode-2.0, then at least putting one of them in the passenger gives us payoff for that character. (And ideally LotSD gets replaced with KhanFamily-2.0, but i'll get to that later)

Point is, a known 2ndary character related to one of our leads is more compelling than a tertiary character we don’t know related to a 2ndary character we also barely know. We get some major strain between our two leads because of it, but also, after the initial shock has settled, we see Yaz’s genuine trust in 13 to save her family, AND 13's care for Yaz + family in promising to save [whichever one]. They’re almost at each other’s throats because of 13 keeping secrets, Yaz pushing her too much, big pressure cooker episode, but at the end of the day, they trust and care about each other, and 13 WILL protect her companions' families.

VotA

Canon!Dan spends this entire episode with Yaz. He doesn’t have a unique plot role at all. If he's not here, Yaz can have a taste of a solo mission, again showing 13’s trust in Yaz to perform under pressure, but of course it goes wrong because they’ve underestimated/couldn’t predict the Angels’ plan.

Script-wise, we get more reliance on Yaz’s detective skills, and unspoken context clues for the audience, rather than bouncing off Dan. She can talk to herself a little bit (picking up a habit from 13), but the point is it focuses more on Yaz alone working things out. And once she finds the kid, there's someone to dialogue with anyway, so it's not like it'll just be a silent role for half the episode or something.

SotF

Now here’s where it gets interesting. We all know this is THE doctorification-of-Yasmin-Khan episode. Jericho and canon!Dan are very much her companions, and she is the doctor in 13’s absence.

Dan’s role can be taken on entirely by Jericho. The companion role can be absorbed without any major changes - canon!J already does half of that work anyway. Dan’s main character scene here is comforting Yaz after she watches the hologram. But I think we can retool this and even make it more effective with Jericho.

A surprisingly common headcanon is that J is gay, and here we have an opportunity to make it canon (though not explicitly stated - bear with me). In the canon version, JDY have all known each other for the same amount of time, so the strength of familiarity + friendship can be directly translated from Y+D to Y+J. J is perfectly able to tell how badly Y misses 13, and while he didn’t see HA, WotS or OUT like Canon!Dan, he did get a good look at 13’s brilliance and magnetism in VotA, so he kinda gets it. This woman is a bit mad, but clearly more than the average person, and these two have clearly developed a stronger-than-average friendship, so he’s just as capable of delivering the comfort that canon!Dan does.

And if we make gay!J canon, it creates a beautiful extra layer. J knows 13+Y are extremely close, so recognises that spark of atypical attraction in Yaz that he knows from his own life, but maybe can’t be certain. Certainly Yaz hasn’t come to terms with it herself at this point, so J has to tread carefully because he doesn’t want to force Yaz into any self-revelations before she’s ready.

But more importantly! J is from the 60s! His only experience with talking about LGBT stuff is mired in the risk of rejection and ostracism - he has NO IDEA that Yaz would just be accepting because she’s grown up in a better time! So he can’t come out and say it, he HAS to tiptoe under threat of losing his only friend in a terrifying time-adrift situation. Similarly, Yaz is both not ready to acknowledge her own sexuality, and couldn’t say anything to J directly anyway because he’s from the 60s! He’s “probably deeply homophobic”, so there’s no way Yaz could risk bringing it up even if she were ready to (which she isn't)!

J has to tiptoe around the suggestion because on the one hand, he can see that spark, but can’t risk losing his friend/lifeline, and Y has to pick up on something much more subtle than she’s prepared for (but won't - yet!). All wrapped up in the simpler ground layer of Yaz just needing some comfort - any comfort - as she’s been bearing the brunt of the work since taking on the role of “the Doctor” for an extended time now leading the pair of them through this insane mission to get back to their times, and just... because she misses her best friend.

This conversation now has the dual role of canon!Dan’s pep talk AND forming a bedrock for Yaz’s coming out as she can have a hindsight-realisation about what J was hinting at (during one of the 2022 specials).

Vanquishers

Canon!Dan is again with the group the whole time, so he doesn’t have an individual plot purpose for us to replace or work around. Canon!Karvanista doesn’t even care about Dan at this point, so his role doesn’t change either. The only conversation they have is a payoff to “fetch your dog”, which can easily be one of the (multiple) 13s going to fetch him for more 13+K dynamic, rather than both 13s going to Bel.

Obviously we get the Passenger rescue in this episode too, so our chosen Khan has the appropriate freak-out moment. Pick your favourite:

Sonya yelling that “this is where you’ve been and you didn’t tell me” + a sisterly ribbing about the romantic tension between 13+Y

Najia going into full “this is my daughter you’ve taken off to god-knows-where and I expect her back in one piece” @ 13 + “are you sure you’re not seeing each other?” @ Yaz

Hakim HOLY SHIT ALIENS ARE FUCKING REAL YAZ CAN YOU BELIEVE IT

2022 Specials

Dan's biggest contribution here is the “I know what you are” talk @ Yaz in EotD and playing (failed) matchmaker in LotSD, and then he fucks off for PotD anyway, so that doesn’t even need any changing.

In my ideal world, we would actually replace one of EotD or LotSD with KhanFamilyEpisode-2.0 (KFE2), continuing on from the post-passenger-rescue revelation in Vanquishers. I LOVE EotD, so I would replace LotSD and that’s the direction my ramblings will go from now on. But it could be either way round (or in magical get-everything-we-want land, it's just an extra 4th episode)

EotD doesn’t need to have Dan pushing Yaz to come out to herself. Admittedly, this is the dodgiest consequence we get from stripping back Dan so much, but bear with me. Combining the Sarah/Nick romantic B plot and Yaz pulling on that aforementioned hindsight to her conversation with Jericho, we can get the same effect without having a straight man effectively force a closeted lesbian into coming out. (As much as canon!Dan is trying to be nice, and I respect him for that, the actual result is cornering a closeted young woman into coming out to him, and then immediately outing her to someone else, which is not… the best thing to do)

We can replace it with more reaction shots for Yaz to S/N’s relationship and bickering, sprinkle in a bit of flashback to her conversation with J with new context, maybe an almost-confession that she chickens out of in the heat of the moment during one of the later loops. Something like 13 being reckless and Y yells at her for it and goes off about how she cares about 13 a lot and can’t just lose her if shit goes wrong - a direct mirror to 13’s “I will not let you die for my mistakes” moment. They each get an admission of care now. If we’re desperate, Yaz can have a self-annoyed talking-to-herself moment berating herself for said chickening out, but this is a bit heavy-handed and shouldn’t be necessary if the rest of it is played right.

In KFE2, one of the Khans of course has appropriate characterisation from Flux. I think Sonya works best here, since she’s the most likely to accept Yaz’s inevitable plea to “don’t tell the others anything about alien bullshit” (potentially including blackmail wherein Yaz has to promise to do sonya’s chores for a month or something, classic sibling hijinks).

Obviously Doctor Who shenanigans ensue and it probably results in the whole family finding out the truth about the Doctor. But the B plot is Sonya needling at Yaz over her now-obvious crush on 13, culminating in the equivalent to LotSD’s beach talk.

ALTERNATIVELY:

Swap KFE2 and EotD. The B plot in KFE2 ends in Yaz coming out to Sonya (instead of Dan), who is on the one hand, a typical sibling response of “yeah obviously duh, and i'm gonna make fun of you for being a dumbass about it” but on the other hand is fully supportive because she knows Yaz’s mental health history (+ potentially already suspected her sexuality from school years) and is, at heart, an actually good sister.

EotD can then have Yaz actually confessing to 13 during that aforementioned stressful late-game time loop, mirrored by moving 13's confession from LotSD to this episode as well. And then the equivalent beach talk.

Diane

Final note: I didn’t want to just delete Diane completely, because I do really like that she just exists as a disabled character who gets shit done. We definitely don’t need the will-they-won’t-they if we’re stripping back Dan’s role, so if you really want, we can just have them be an established relationship for that little bit of world building. Maybe D+D can have minor roles in Vanquishers as part of the finale if you rejig it a bit

OR we can just give Dan’s role to Diane wholesale. Diane’s actress was perfectly good, she can carry that role easily, and we get to keep a semi-prominent disabled character. I quite like what little we see of Diane, so I like the idea of keeping her over Dan, but narratively speaking it’s not important either way.

[asknarashikari]

Why can I see Keiwa kicking the bucket, despite his status as a 2ndary? It prolly has to do with his video diary?

What do you think?

I don't think it's very likely Keiwa would be one of the Riders to kick the bucket. He is one of the Riders to be visible in the marketing of the show, i.e. in SNS and interviews and such. All the Riders who have been offed so far do not have that honor.

And while we've had Riders in major roles getting written off the show for huge chunks in all the Reiwa shows so far (Jin for Zero-One, Kento for Saber, and Hiromi in Revice) none of them were Secondary Riders.

The video diary thing is just a plot device they use for recap purposes, and basically an excuse to pad out the episode a little. It also establishes him as our POV character, i.e. the character who we see most of the story through. This gives added mystery to the actual protagonist, Ace, since we don't see from his perspective very often.

[zaruba-needslove]

IDK if its from you or another tumblr blog that said that they were glad Keiwa wasn't the final boss, because he didn't have to turn into a tree.

But I just realized.... they did turn someone from the cast into a tree, and its related to the 2ndary to boot.

They turned Sara into a tree, she got better but she still turned into a tree.

wwww

lol to be fair, I did say smth like that. Cos there were people comparing Geats with Gaim, even when Geats executed a lot of the plot twists better.

And oh yahor... as much as Keiwa did escape Kaito's endgame fate, Sara did take the fall. My brain kinda blurred that out lol. Like I can accept the purpose for Sara (and all the other people being turn Jyamato) becoming part of the Tree of Knowledge... but the Kaito plot was just... meh

[mothmvn]

i maintain that the entire newsies musical is just a love story between jack and david

[macgyvertape]

thoughts on season of splicer ending

warning: spoilers for the entire season, general discussion of leaks, and absolutely being Bungie critical. Basically trying to write this out and figure out my own thoughts in the writing

I guess my first thoughts are what everyone's talking about: Osiris.

All the wild theories about if he's been replaced, controlled, playing 5d chess, etc. tldr: leaks say that from season of the Hunt it hasn't been Osiris but Savathun. Yeah I've read people's compilations of proof until I rapidly got bored with them. I'll be bluntly honest, if Bungie is going for some sort of imposter story-line then they're doing a fucking awful job at telling it.

a) A good imposter story-line needs to establish to the audience that there is the possibility or replacement/control

b) characters in the story themselves should be aware of point A and be actively considering it in their decision making

c) if the imposter is doing something the original didn't than clearly show audience the imposter is there.

I would say Bungie didn't do any of these, no the lore page of Savathun's human disguise falling apart around her doesn't count, because Bungie has long had a problem of putting story relevant plot details in lore pages and then not referencing them ingame. Lore should accentuate story, not provide key details to the story.

If you want to see a good imposter story-line look at Forsaken, and how they worked to make it obvious to someone who didn't know who Mara Sov was that something was up.

Most of the proof people cite is either cherry picking ambiguous things Osiris has said, or pointing out inconsistencies in writing. IMO not much of the evidence holds up because multiple characters this season (Saint, Lakshmi, Mithrax) have been written inconsistently with past appearances and without nuance; because their character has to carry the plot in a certain way or there are limits on recording dialogue for override/expunge.

My point in recapping the Osiris thing, is that from a thematic view at the end of the season Osiris is Osiris and I'm judging the story from the view of the season not how will the story be in the future.

very cynical take that as much praise as Bungie wants for working to make a high profile gay relationship be shown in game after a writer confirmed it on twitter

if leaks are right: if  Osiris hasn't been Osiris for the past 3 seasons then none of the scenes with Saint are real or matter, and it invalidates all the emotional grief of Sagira being dead. It's 3 seasons of character development and effort wasted

or: they took the first chance they could to make one of them an unsympathetic villain and write him out of the story.

(yeah destiny has other queer character but how many of them are alive and matter to the story? When was the last time Ana's girlfriend was mentioned?)

The game is clear that for all the talk about "vex tech influence" Lakshmi's views and choices were her own, so the same for Osiris: he is responsible for helping Lakshmi and is responsible for all the civilian deaths, he's the 2ndary Human villain of the season.

Which brings me to my point (that I've seen others say) is that Bungie should have given a second thought to having their all of their human antagonists be PoC characters this expansion. Osiris, Lakshmi, and Saladin last season. For Lakshmi and Saladin they weren't just antagonists, they were written to be bigots for the community to dislike. Yes Destiny has a lot of PoC characters and anyone can be a villain, but IMO its a bad look from a company who talks so much about social justice. It wouldn't matter except Bungie wanted the message of the season to be anti-racism, and I'm comparing it within the context of how often minorities are the villains in games/US media. I don't think it was deliberately done, I just think it is something that like last season's issues with proving grounds and antisemitism they didn't care or bother with a sensitivity reader.

It's obvious this season they were going for a very obvious reference to Trump and modern day fears about refugees with Lakshmi, and it's a bad look that they did with a Indian female character and refugees are the enemy crab aliens. I'm also not saying that female characters can't be villains, but did the Bungie writers not think about just how nasty gamers would get in either slurs, insults, or expressing wishes for violence, and how pervasive and visible it would be?

I'm genuinely curious why the writers went for such a heavy handed analogy, and a story-line that feels like it comes from an afterschool special. The Eliksni have been enemies in atleast 4 expansions now, there could have been a more nuanced story other than "House of Light is good keep on killing all other Fallen". At the end of the season the game treated the attack on the City being Lakshmi and Osiris' fault, and all the people who don't like the Eliksni (say the people doing hate crimes in the lore) left with the factions so "problem resolved" . Lakshmi gets a simple karmatic death, in an area where multiple reddit threads express how they love tbagging the corpse. The ending cutscene didn't feel super inspiring to me it just felt unrealistic not just in real life where things aren't that simple but also within Destiny's story; the "you are my family" line felt cringe to me, probably because it felt unearned.

That's kind of the problem of the season isn't it, that the earliest planned game based decisions like having a Vex seasonal enemy and getting rid of the Factions determined the cast of characters with ties to the Vex and factions. So you just fight x many Vex bosses until you defeat Quria, then there's a break for Solstace, but on Reset-Tuesday with no warning things escalate because its epilogue time.

Sadly I forget who said that "it felt like the plot needed to hit one beat a week" meaning one issue had to get resolved enough for the community to talk about (except for when we take 3 weeks off for solstice). Each week there has to be some sort of hook to avoid the overblown "content drought". So multiple times you will have characters change their mind or their deep held beliefs after one counter argument is presented. (big example is Saint changing his mind not over the season but after one cutscene). City politics and factions don't matter aside from dialogue in a few different weeks because they'll be gone at the end of the season but in the meantime characters needed to talk about something to prompt fandom engagement. example: the fandom argues about governance of the last city for a while before the argument burn out since the relevant lore wasn't designed to hold up to close scrutiny.

just, I'm a politically active leftist in a red conservative state so maybe i just find this exhausting since I deal with similar issues irl and am more prone to thinking this season was tone deaf.

tldr: that wow this turned out really negative. Which I didn't really expect considering how much I enjoyed the first few weeks of the season. I enjoyed a lot of the gameplay this season (I really enjoy fun gambit aka Overrides and VoG). But as for replaying the story on my other characters, I don't think I'll bother.

[lovecolibri]

Positives of the RNM promos: 1) Kyle spends as much time with Max as with Maria so no reason to think they'll pair Kyle with her any more they'll air Kyle with Max. 2) i think the CW tends to post promo stuff of the 2ndary storyline of an episode. 3) Maria is only in 10 episodes, best to get them over with early. 4) MARIA IS NOT ANYWHERE NEAR MALEX!!!!!

These are all EXCELLENT points, Nonnie! I know a lot of the speculation about her getting with Kyle is because they announced she was getting a new love interest this season so anyone she shares scenes with will probably be speculated about (except for Max because if she took LIZ'S man she would definitely be painted as the bad guy but since it was just Michael and Alex, it was a perfect normal thing for her to do and she didn't do anything wrong as CAM loved to point out 🙄)

BUT, I am hoping they keep up the Kyle/Max relationship from last season because it was 10000% better than the angry male posturing from season 1 🙄. And I think you're right they don't want to spoil the main plot points so they are teasing other things. Yaaaaaaaaas, let's get all her episodes over as quickly as possible and, as you said, keep her far away from Malex!

[abracafockyou]

Hey shy af annon back again haha, uh dumb question but.. how does one go about being friends with you without being an akward mess. 2ndary question, how do I throw a muse at rune? Cause I'm about to load my inquizzy into a trebuchet

// Unfortunately the way to become friends with me is to talk to me, and it may be awkward, it might even be messy, but that’s how socializing goes, and it’ll be okay! If we don’t vibe, then that’s fine! We’ll figure it out together!

As for rping with Rune, I do still require people to have an about muse page and rules posted on their blog or a google doc so I know what to expect in writing with you! From there you can either send me a random ask, meme, or we can plot something out!

[mikedilf]

Okay ngl this is legit just rwby fanfic (which is a great web series btw) and I don't wanna reveal too much, because I'm not entirely sure I'm gonna stick w/ this plot, but Bird Brain is the ship 4 Bolin Hori(bg character) x Amelie Ambrose(oc) and its basically wistful preteen crush to summer romance to moving away to being reunited and flustered~Shieldmates = Jaune Arc (2ndary character) x Vee Eldrich (oc) since they both use shields and just a whole lotta pining

It’s about The Longing. Amazing. I love them

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