#asoiaf sansa is way better i know

[jaqenadar]

getting involved in the socmed game of thrones fandom has made me learn everyone hates sansa for some reason. what the fuck, take me back to when i didn’t know that

[greenerteacups]

oooh please someday tell us what you think of GOT

oh, no, it's my fatal weakness! it's [checks notes] literally just the bare modicum of temptation! okay you got me.

SO. in order to tell what's wrong with game of thrones you kind of have to have read the books, because the books are the reason the show goes off the rails. i actually blame the showrunners relatively little in proportion to GRRM for how bad the show was (which I'm not gonna rehash here because if you're interested in GOT in any capacity you've already seen that horse flogged to death). people debate when GOT "got bad" in terms of writing, but regardless of when you think it dropped off, everyone agrees the quality declined sharply in season 8, and to a certain extent, season 7. these are the seasons that are more or less entirely spun from whole cloth, because season 7 marks the beginning of what will, if we ever see it, be the Winds of Winter storyline. it's the first part that isn't based on a book by George R.R. Martin. it's said that he gave the showrunners plot outlines, but we don't know how detailed they were, or how much the writers diverged from the blueprint — and honestly, considering the cumulative changes made to the story by that point, some stark divergence would have been required. (there's a reason for this. i'll get there in a sec.)

so far, i'm not saying anything all that original. a lot of people recognized how bad the show got as soon as they ran out of Book to adapt. (I think it's kind of weird that they agreed to make a show about an unfinished series in the first place — did GRRM figure that this was his one shot at a really good HBO adaptation, and forego misgivings about his ability to write two full books in however many years it took to adapt? did he think they would wait for him? did he not care that the series would eventually spoil his magnum opus, which he's spent the last three decades of his life writing? perplexing.) but the more interesting question is why the show got bad once it ran out of Book, because in my mind, that's not a given. a lot of great shows depart from the books they were based on. fanfiction does exactly that, all the time! if you have good writers who understand the characters they're working with, departure means a different story, not a worse one. now, the natural reply would be to say that the writers of GOT just aren't good, or at least aren't good at the things that make for great television, and that's why they needed the books as a structure, but I don't think that's true or fair, either. books and television are very different things. the pacing of a book is totally different from the pacing of a television show, and even an episodic book like ASOIAF is going to need a lot of work before it's remotely watchable as a series. bad writers cannot make great series of television, regardless of how good their source material is. sure, they didn't invent the characters of tyrion lannister and daenerys targaryen, but they sure as hell understood story structure well enough to write a damn compelling season of TV about them!

so but then: what gives? i actually do think it's a problem with the books! the show starts out as very faithful to the early books (namely, A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings) to the point that most plotlines are copied beat-for-beat. the story is constructed a little differently, and it's definitely condensed, but the meat is still there. and not surprisingly, the early books in ASOIAF are very tightly written. for how long they are, you wouldn't expect it, but on every page of those books, the plot is racing. you can practically watch george trying to beat the fucking clock. and he does! useful context here is that he originally thought GOT was going to be a trilogy, and so the scope of most threads in the first book or two would have been much smaller. it also helps that the first three books are in some respects self-contained stories. the first book is a mystery, the second and third are espionage and war dramas — and they're kept tight in order to serve those respective plots.

the trouble begins with A Feast for Crows, and arguably A Storm of Swords, because GRRM starts multiplying plotlines and treating the series as a story, rather than each individual book. he also massively underestimated the number of pages it would take him to get through certain plot beats — an assumption whose foundation is unclear, because from a reader's standpoint, there is a fucke tonne of shit in Feast and Dance that's spurious. I'm not talking about Brienne's Riverlands storyline (which I adore thematically but speaking honestly should have been its own novella, not a part of Feast proper). I'm talking about whole chapters where Tyrion is sitting on his ass in the river, just talking to people. (will I eat crow about this if these pay off in hugely satisfying ways in Winds or Dream? oh, totally. my brothers, i will gorge myself on sweet sweet corvid. i will wear a dunce cap in the square, and gleefully, if these turn out to not have been wastes of time. the fact that i am writing this means i am willing to stake a non-negligible amount of pride on the prediction that that will not happen). I'm talking about scenes where the characters stare at each other and talk idly about things that have already happened while the author describes things we already have seen in excruciating detail. i'm talking about threads that, while forgivable in a different novel, are unforgivable in this one, because you are neglecting your main characters and their story. and don't tell me you think that a day-by-day account tyrion's river cruise is necessary to telling his story, because in the count of monte cristo, the main guy disappears for nine years and comes hurtling back into the story as a vengeful aristocrat! and while time jumps like that don't work for everything, they certainly do work if what you're talking about isn't a major story thread!

now put aside whether or not all these meandering, unconcluded threads are enjoyable to read (as, in fairness, they often are!). think about them as if you're a tv showrunner. these bad boys are your worst nightmare. because while you know the author put them in for a reason, you haven't read the conclusion to the arc, so you don't know what that reason is. and even if the author tells you in broad strokes how things are going to end for any particular character (and this is a big "if," because GRRM's whole style is that he lets plots "develop as he goes," so I'm not actually convinced that he does have endings written out for most major characters), that still doesn't help you get them from point A (meandering storyline) to point B (actual conclusion). oh, and by the way, you have under a year to write this full season of television, while GRRM has been thinking about how to end the books for at least 10. all of this means you have to basically call an audible on whether or not certain arcs are going to pay off, and, if they are, whether they make for good television, and hence are worth writing. and you have to do that for every. single. unfinished. story. in the books.

here's an example: in the books, Quentin Martell goes on a quest to marry Daenerys and gain a dragon. many chapters are spent detailing this quest. spoiler alert: he fails, and he gets charbroiled by dragons. GRRM includes this plot to set up the actions of House Martell in Winds, but the problem is that we don't know what House Martell does in Winds, because (see above) the book DNE. So, although we can reliably bet that the showrunners understand (1) Daenerys is coming to Westeros with her 3 fantasy nukes, and (2) at some point they're gonna have to deal with the invasion of frozombies from Canada, that DOESN'T mean they necessarily know exactly what's going to happen to Dorne, or House Martell. i mean, fuck! we don't even know if Martin knows what's going to happen to Dorne or House Martell, because he's said he's the kind of writer who doesn't set shit out beforehand! so for every "Cersei defaults on millions of dragons in loans from the notorious Bank of Nobody Fucks With Us, assumes this will have no repercussions for her reign or Westerosi politics in general" plotline — which might as well have a big glaring THIS WILL BE IMPORTANT stamp on top of the chapter heading — you have Arianne Martell trying to do a coup/parent trap switcheroo with Myrcella, or Euron the Goffick Antichrist, or Faegon Targaryen and JonCon preparing a Blackfyre restoration, or anything else that might pan out — but might not! And while that uncertainty about what's important to the "overall story" might be a realistic way of depicting human beings in a world ruled by chance and not Destiny, it makes for much better reading than viewing, because Game of Thrones as a fantasy television series was based on the first three books, which are much more traditional "there is a plot and main characters and you can generally tell who they are" kind of book. I see Feast and Dance as a kind of soft reboot for the series in this respect, because they recenter the story around a much larger cast and cast a much broader net in terms of which characters "deserve" narrative attention.

but if you're making a season of television, you can't do that, because you've already set up the basic premise and pacing of your story, and you can't suddenly pivot into a long-form tone poem about the horrors of war. so you have to cut something. but what are you gonna cut? bear in mind that you can't just Forget About Dorne, or the Iron Islands, or the Vale, or the North, or pretty much any region of the story, because it's all interconnected, but to fit in everything from the books would require pacing of the sort that no reasonable audience would ever tolerate. and bear in mind that the later books sprout a lot more of these baby-plots that could go somewhere, but also might end up being secondary or tertiary to the "main story," which, at the end of the day, is about dragons and ice zombies and the rot at the heart of the feudal power system glorified in classical fantasy. that's the story that you as the showrunner absolutely must give them an end to, and that's the story that should be your priority 1.

so you do a hack and slash job, and you mortar over whatever you cut out with storylines that you cook up yourself, but you can't go too far afield, because you still need all the characters more or less in place for the final showdown. so you pinch here and push credulity there, and you do your best to put the characters in more or less the same place they would have been if you kept the original, but on a shorter timeframe. and is it as good as the first seasons? of course not! because the material that you have is not suited to TV like the first seasons are. and not only that, but you are now working with source material that is actively fighting your attempt to constrain a linear and well-paced narrative on it. the text that you're working with changed structure when you weren't looking, and now you have to find some way to shanghai this new sprawling behemoth of a Thing into a television show. oh, and by the way, don't think that the (living) author of the source material will be any help with this, because even though he's got years of experience working in television writing, he doesn't actually know how all of these threads will tie together, which is possibly the reason that the next book has taken over 8 years (now 13 and counting) to write. oh and also, your showrunners are sick of this (in fairness, very difficult) job and they want to go write for star wars instead, so they've refused the extra time the studio offered them for pre-production and pushed through a bunch of first-draft scripts, creating a crunch culture of the type that spawns entirely avoidable mistakes, like, say, some poor set designer leaving a starbucks cup in frame.

anyway, that's what I think went wrong with game of thrones.

[visenyaism]

ASOIAF POV characters ranked by how good of a guest judge they would be on drag race (definitive ranking)

24. Arys oakheart. spectacularly bad in a way that would also be bad TV because he simply would not know what to do. and would be icky about it.

23. Ned stark. canonically gets suspicious of people just because they are gender nonconforming.

22. Aeron greyjoy. people are going to wonder why i put him as Victarion on this list. this is because I think victarion has a better personality for reality TV.

21. Victarion greyjoy. good TV, would win reverse GLAAD award for most homophobic event on television.

20. Areo hotah. too stoic.

19. Quentyn. little nerd in over his head. if Barristan Selmy is telling you that you are not serving hard enough it’s already over.

18. Barristan selmy. a #ally for revealing that egg legalized gay marriage for his kid daeron and being happy about it, but does not have a lot else going for him. would probably say everyone looks nice

17. Bran. seven.

16. Joncon. IS gay, but does not seem like he’s super into all that.

15. Jon. Would probably awaken something in him.

14. Jaime. does not serve cunt, is one.

13. Brienne. Listen she’s trying her best okay.

12. Samwell Tarly. Would DEFINITELY awaken something in him. too busy blushing and telling everyone they look great to be an actual judge.

11. Arya. One thing about her is she WILL be finding people and she WILL be talking to ALL of them which makes her a great TV personality, but i think she would get bored.

10. Davos. Can’t explain this one i just think he would be down.

9. Cat. Serves, afraid to FULLY serve. Ally.

8. Asha. gets off on being mean to pretty boys so you know she is having a great time.

7. Dany. what can i say she’s a star.

6. Tyrion. definitely has the personality for it.

5. Cersei. is a fascist but showing up in full rhaegar eleganza to her husband who she murdered’s funeral. cuntress. You KNOW she would kill it.

4. Arianne. Definitely the first person you would think to ask to guest judge and for good reason.

3. Sansa. 13 year old fashion icon who loves gay people so much. Is so into it the whole time. meticulous notes.

2. Theon. could be the greatest to do it if he could ever get over himself but as it stands simultaneously knocks it out of the park and is a total train wreck. extremely fun to watch.

1. Melisandre. Serves like her life depends on it which she thinks it literally does. Obsessed with appearances and performances. off putting antagonistic cryptic and weird. fantastic TV.

[coraniaid]

It’s always very odd to me when I read criticism of A Song Of Ice And Fire online (by which I mainly mean: on Tumblr) which takes for granted that this is some sort of obsessively dark and edgy and mean-spirited fantasy, because ... that's not what the series is actually like at all?  

I mean, yes, some awful (and graphically described) stuff happens in these books, but this is at heart a deeply optimistic and almost embarrassingly romantic story, full of a very obvious sympathy and tenderness for the unhappy and the hurt and the powerless.  The weird gritty-for-the-sake-of-it books that the series's detractors describe wouldn't have recurring POV characters like Sansa Stark or Tyrion Lannister or Davos Seaworth or Samwell Tarly or Brienne of Tarth.  They certainly wouldn't obviously empathize with and respect these characters to the extent the actual books do.  They wouldn't be so obsessive about the importance of hope and kindness and understanding in an otherwise uncaring world.  Whenever the text suggests the world isn't fair or kind there's always an unspoken "but it should be,and I wish it was". You are clearly not meant to think that characters like Roose Bolton or Twyin Lannister are being held up as role models to emulate!

I mean, maybe the TV show is more like that -- I gave up on the show after only a couple of seasons, it was a terrible adaptation of the source material, even before the final season that everyone apparently hated -- but so much of the open disdain for ASOIAF I come across on here reads like the people writing the posts haven't even read a single one of the books. Yes, the popularity of ASOIAF inspired a lot of "dark" fantasy novels that actually are bleakly nihilistic and seem to revel in their characters meeting pointlessly sad and violent ends, but Martin's books are just not like that.

Yes, lots of the world-building for ASOIAF is patently ridiculous, and yes, key parts of the plot are just cribbed from the War of the Roses (or, rather, from historical novels like Sharon Penman's The Sunne in Splendour)  and yes, Martin has said some very stupid things in interviews while busy not writing the series.  And no, I'm not sure I could actually bring myself to recommend the books to anyone who's not read them before (especially when it's so unlikely that the series will ever be finished, let alone in a satisfying way).  I haven’t reread them myself in years.

But honestly, back when I was a quietly miserable teenager these books really meant a lot to me, in part because they are the opposite of the caricature often discussed online.  Yes, they acknowledged that sometimes the world was awful and unbearable.  It is!  But they also suggested that it was still important to try to be fair and kind and to appreciate the moments when things were better.  They are books about trying to do the right thing even when it’s so hard as to seem impossible and nobody else will even know that you tried, written in a way that takes for granted that “the right thing” is also the just and the optimistic and the quietly heroic thing; that doing the right thing when you afraid is more praiseworthy than never being afraid at all. And it is baffling to me how often I see people talking about them now who don't actually seem to have ever even skimmed them but are still vocally passionate in their hatred of something that, as they describe it, simply doesn't exist.

[mhsdatgo]

Since GOT they’ve been using rape and abuse to humble or break a woman/Girl because they aren’t the “right” kind of woman. They don’t ride a dragon or yield a sword. They don’t fight against their period typical role in life that they were born and raised in. They’re not “A guys girl” or the “I don’t have any girl friends, they’re too much drama” types who prefer the company of men to women, who would rather train with a sword and not learn embroidery. They don’t have dialogue that vaguely sounds more 21st century than Middle Ages.

These women are seen as of less value than our little dragon riding, sword and fist fighting tomboys. So they need to be taught that if you had just been more like this or more like that you wouldn’t have been brutalized and abused. The things that were done to you by other people is all your fault and you deserved it.

This show/franchise is not even in the same room as feminism.

👏👏👏 Nothing more to add anon. No lie was told.

The sad thing is, this is not what I got from the books of asoiaf at all. Women's experience was never told in juxtaposition to others. There is no humbling or brutalizing other women as a "punishment" for not being better, more rebellious, or bolder than others. The books tell stories of suffering and that's it. The way shows and fandoms decide to try and force other characters into another one's story for the sole purpose of comparing them so they prove that stanning one means having a moral high ground over another character's stans is the most idiotic thing to ever have happened among fandoms, to say the least. Especially when the two characters in question don't even know each other.

Just look at the way Sansa and Dany are treated in the fandom. Have a shot for every time Sansa in King's Landing is called a tradwife as if this wasn't a girl in middle school trying to survive they're talking about, or for every time she's called jealous of Dany. Imagine if a stranger girl with three dragons cames knocking on your door demanding that you and all of your people and their mama bend the knee to her and you are the jealous one and the villain because you just... Don't? Also, you deserve to be threatened with death when you pose a reasonable question, and you need to take it and be better and shut up. Then you're a "girls' girl" deserving of respect, etc.

We want strong female characters to think for themselves, except when that "thinking for oneself" isn't the same thing as kissing the ground the fan favourite girl walks on.

If only fandoms paid more mind to what makes a character likeable or unlikeable in their eyes BASED ON THE CHARACTER ITSELF, and not on their perspective on their faves, interacting with them would be way more fun. Books/shows like asoiaf/GOT or F&B/HotD aren't places where you just choose a character you like and that's it, she's an icon she's a legend and she is the moment. If it was, it would either be a story for kids or a hell for Mare Sues' fans. As long as you treat asoiaf characters like deities that can do no wrong and everyone else as villains in need of redemption, you should step back and read something else.

This is something that needs to be accepted even between writers and directors, btw. Just look at what F&B was turned into. Girlboss vs Girlfail. Blacks got the Girlboss, the virtuous rightful heir, good mother fine ruler, Greens' got the Girlfail, the rape enabler, the boy mom, the tradwife, you name it.

No, it doesn't matter that the latter is doing everything she can possibly do. She was a piece of shit the moment she stopped toiling behind the former because everyone is meant to be like or kneel before girlboss with dragon. Only then are your ambitions respectable. If not, fuck you, you're nothing. Everything that happens to you is your fault. I'll be in the front seats cheering for when everything you love is ripped brutally from you.

Even when your grown-up son rapes a maid. Even when girlboss with dragon threatens to put your people to the torch because you won't bend the knee.

TL;DR: There's no need to compare/stone certain female characters for being what they are instead of a completely different type. If all of them were tomboyish with swords or feminine with embroidery, it would be boring. You aren't better than anyone for having preferences. Also, learn how to blame men when they fuck up. It's great for the bowel.

[fromtheseventhhell]

Interesting how the Trident incident is the only moment where people question Joffrey's capacity for cruelty. He is almost universally considered one of the worst asoiaf characters, with no redeemable qualities. No one ever attempts to justify his actions when he abuses Sansa, orders Ned's executions, or any of his other many acts of violence. It's only this moment, a moment meant to introduce us to his cruel nature, that people seem to believe him to be a rational character with limits. It's honestly laughable. It's evident that the people who think like this are just biased against Arya; the majority of these arguments are centered not around Joffrey's violence, but Arya's actions to defend Mycah. People seem to truly believe that the better option would have been to let Joffrey "have his fun" and torment Mycah.

Debating how badly Joffrey would've hurt Mycah misses the entire point of the moment. Joffrey attacks Mycah because he's lowborn, he finds amusement in tormenting others, and he knows he can get away with it. He was quick to pull his sword and draw blood and, from what we know of his character, he undoubtedly would've taken it further. Arya stands up to him because she thinks that Mycah is worth defending which is significant considering she is the only one to do so. She is also the only character who mourns him and is affected by his senseless death, even books later (Ned is affected by his death but I wouldn't say he mourns him, although it is a moment that influences his feelings towards the Lannisters and Robert). Even if, which is a very big if, Joffery hadn't intended to go any further he had already crossed a line by attacking Mycah. The only alternative would be that Arya simply sits by and watches Joffrey further injure Mycah...and that's somehow the "better" option?

The people coming to the conclusion that Arya was the one who escalated the situation (and that it's somehow not Joffrey pulling his sword on an innocent boy) are coming from the perspective of the classist society that they live in. Joffrey attacking a lowborn boy wasn't an issue worth action, but harming a prince is "wrong". Mycah being attacked, and later murdered, is seen as inconsequential to the other characters (and readers) because he is lowborn. That's the thing though. You aren't supposed to look at this situation where a young boy is murdered for no reason and think that the only one who defended should've behaved differently. This moment is a criticism of the classist society these characters live in. It is significant that Arya is markedly less classist than a majority of other characters and cares when no one else does.

Further, if Arya were truly in the wrong for her actions then Joffrey wouldn't have needed to lie about what happened. From the very existence of the "trial" and Arya being given the chance to tell her version of events, we know that there wouldn't be any punishment if the truth of the situation had been told from the very beginning. The only reason there was an issue is because Joffrey decided to attack Mycah, and then later lie about what happened. Arya is not responsible for Joffrey's cruelty, Cersei's enabling, or Robert's subsequent apathy. The fact that people can't seem to comprehend this is maddening. I've never seen people have the same attitude towards Sansa for speaking up for Dontos, even though it incurred Joffrey's wrath and would've escalated had Sandor not spoken up. Why are Sansa's actions brave and kind, but Arya's are seen as stupid and reckless? What happened to not blaming young characters for the actions of others?

This is one of those things where the fandom decides for themselves that they know the story being told, without actually looking at how it's written. They would rather debate on (baseless) hypotheticals than look at why George presented the story to us the way he did. It takes an insane amount of misinterpretation to decide that Arya's actions are the reason for Mycah's death and misses a, rather large, point being made by the author. Notably, none of these people can ever provide evidence from the book to support their insistence that Joffrey would've simply left Mycah alone. You would think that since that's the basis of their argument and they're so adamant that their analysis is correct, they would be able to support their reasoning. It's almost as though the books don't support their interpretations...

[ichooseviolence]

There's a specific type of humor that I love in ASoIaF, and it's mostly sarcasm. Even characters that I absolutely loath make me laugh because the deliverance of their quips are so on point that I have to respect it. Tom of Sevenstrings, Jaime, Tyrion, Eddison Tollett, Olenna, Genna Lannister, Oberyn, Cersei, Euron, Renly, even Petyr. Dany has a couple moments that make me chuckle as well.

But I might actually add Sansa to the list, because some of her quips are perfection.. If she was in a healthy environment she would probably let loose on the sarcasm and take no survivors.

The older man in white spoke to Sansa gently. "Ofttimes Ser Ilyn frightens me as well, sweet lady. He has a fearsome aspect." "As well he should." The queen had descended from the wheelhouse. The spectators parted to make way for her. "If the wicked do not fear the King's Justice, you have put the wrong man in office." Sansa finally found her words. "Then surely you have chosen the right one, Your Grace," she said, and a gale of laughter erupted all around her. -AGoT Sansa I

"...It's almost as good as if some wolf killed your traitor brother. Maybe I'll feed him to wolves after I've caught him. Did I tell you, I intend to challenge him to single combat?" "I should like to see that, Your Grace." More than you know. Sansa kept her tone cool and polite, yet even so Joffrey's eyes narrowed in suspicion as he tried to decide whether she was mocking him." -ACoK Sansa I

"She must learn to hide her feelings better, so as not to anger Joffrey. When she heard that the Imp had sent Lord Slynt to the Wall, she had forgotten herself and said, "I hope the Others get him." The king had not been pleased." - ACoK Sansa II (this one literally took me out)

"Dontos was prattling on. "If I were still a knight, I should have to put on armor and man the walls with the rest. I ought to kiss King Joffrey's feet and thank him sweetly." "If you thanked him for making you a fool, he'd make you a knight again," Sansa said sharply." -ACoK Sansa IV

"Ser Meryn Trant held the blood bay for Joffrey to mount. Boy and horse alike wore gilded mail and enameled crimson plate, with matching golden lions on their heads. The pale sunlight flashed off the golds and reds every time Joff moved. Bright, shining, and empty, Sansa thought." -ACoK Sansa V (this one made me smirk)

"Curses are only in songs and stories." That seemed to amuse him. "Has someone made a song about Gregor Clegane dying of a poisoned spear thrust? Or about the sellsword before him, whose limbs Ser Gregor removed a joint at a time? That one took the castle from Ser Amory Lorch, who received it from Lord Tywin. A bear killed one, your dwarf the other. Lady Whent's died as well, I hear. Lothstons, Strongs, Harroways, Strongs...Harrenhal has withered every hand to touch it." "Then give it to Lord Frey." -AFfC Alayne I

[meayefet]

WMGtober day 7: lords and ladies (or no lords, just ladies).

So uh, today has been probably the hardest day in Israeli history. People have been missing since the morning, friends have been drafted, and there are many many people killed, injured, and held hostage by Hamas. We're shut down inside our homes while our shitty right wing government isn't functioning.

Before shit went down I knew I wanted to draw something ASoIaF related for today's WMGtober prompt, and the most comforting thing I could think of is Sansa's hymn from A Clash of Kings, and the Stark family (in the beginning of the series, of course).

Gentle Mother, font of mercy, Save our sons from war, we pray. Stay the swords and stay the arrows, Let them know a better day.

Gentle Mother, strength of women, Help our daughters through this fray. Soothe the wrath and tame the fury, Teach us all a kinder way.

Stay safe everyone. ♥

[queenaryastark]

When it comes to the setup for the characters in ASOIAF, I really do think that people forget or choose to ignore just how sloppy and not at all thought out it is. GRRM has said repeatedly that the story and characters grew in the telling. He clearly wanted these characters to start out at a certain point with certain characteristics, backstories, and circumstances, but he didn't really take everything into account ... because everything was still and is still growing in the telling.

Take the situation with Arya and Catelyn. I've been informed that Catelyn would NEVER allow Arya to be mistreated by Sansa and Mordane and she certainly wouldn't allow that bullying to hinder her daughter's education.

And, you know what? I agree. Catelyn would never allow Mordane to do what she did, and she would have protected Arya from Sansa's bullying. Jeyne Poole certainly wouldn't have been allowed to bully a high lord's daughter.

But Catelyn DID allow Mordane, Sansa, and Jeyne to bully Arya, harming her self-image and hindering the education she should have gotten from Mordane. Thankfully, Maester Luwin was able to give her a quality practical education that must not have involved bullying.

So, how is it that Catelyn did something she would never do? Because GRRM didn't think it through or had partially begun to establish the characters and their relationships when writing AGOT but never went back to edit for consistency. We know that both Mordane and Sansa bad mouthed Arya to Catelyn repeatedly in ways that establish both Sansa and Mordane as terrible people. So, she was made aware of how they were mistreating her from their own mouthes. Even if they hadn't informed her of how terrible they are, it would be her job to look in on the lessons from time to time and asking why her younger daughter was not benefiting from the education she was supposedly receiving. This would have realistically resulted in Catelyn taking action by removing Mordane and hiring an instructor who would do a better job raising the girls.

But she didn't.

This is because Mordane and Sansa were created specifically for Arya's character development. Were those characters removed or forced to stop their behavior, the way GRRM was writing Arya with low self-esteem wouldn't work. With that goal in mind, GRRM probably didn't take into account how this would, in turn, impact what the existence of those characters said about how Catelyn was parenting Arya.

For comparison, another early installment inconsistency happens in Catelyn’s first chapter. In that chapter, she thinks about how there are only weirwood trees in the North as all of the weirwoods in the south had been destroyed. This is untrue. Later, Cat also thinks of how hard the Arryns had tried to grow a weirwood heart tree in the Eyrie, the way most castles all over the continent had. In her last chapter of AGOT, she goes to the godswood of her childhood home of Riverrun where there is a weirwood heart tree that she would have been familiar with. In fact, there are countless other weirwoods in the south.

So, why does Cat claim there are no weirwoods in the south? Because initially, there weren’t any in the south, but that changed partway through the writing of AGOT. GRRM didn't correct the inconsistency. As incredible as this series is, it's full of inconsistencies. It's the same when it comes to inconsistent character choices like Catelyn essentially allowing Arya to be bullied by Sansa and Mordane ... which she wouldn't do ... but actually did, in fact, do.

[pixiecactus]

i'll make this my pinned post:

so a dany hater followed this blog, sorry dude (in a non binary way) but i think this isn't the blog for you, daenerys targaryen is my absolute second favourite character after arya, i know that most of my posts are focusing in the starks, but that's because after arya and dany, jon and bran are my favourites too, but honestly that's it, the starks are not a monolith and i only like very few of them, i think that ned stark was a negletful father, i don't dislike catelyn but i have a problem with her treatment of jon and her treatment of arya, i honestly don't have an opinion on robb, i'll look foward to have more information on rickon on the books and i tend to dislike book!sansa but most of the time i don't really care about her at all but absolutely hate the show!sansa and fanon!sansa (they are almost one and the same) that stansas are trying to push onto everyone else in this fandom. that's why for my mental health i have most of the popular stansas's accounts blocked

so yeah, about the key five, i love arya, dany, jon and bran and i like tyrion, and about the others characters i'm always changing my mind on jaime, i want to protect brienne, samwell and shireen, if i'm being honest i don't really care about theon, i really like the tyrells (olenna, margaery and loras), i despise tywin lannister, robert and joffrey baratheon, how things came to be between stannis and renly makes me sad, i adore arianne martell, i want to know more about the daynes, i'm heavily invested in the young griff/jon connington plotpoint, cersei and melisandre are really intriguing to me, i want to know more about lyanna and rhaegar's relationship and gendry is best boy for me

i'm mostly a gendrya shipper, i don't have a problem with jonrya, i'm on board with a future jonerys ship, i like braime and renlyxloras (do they have a ship name?)

my posts will be always talking about the asoiaf! characters as i think that the show "game of thrones" is an awful abomination. i'm not a native english speaker or writer so my posts always will be full of grammatical errors

i read the books when i was still a teenage girl back in 2014, last year i spent my time rereading arya's chapters again as an adult man with better understanding about grrm's writing style and definitely i'll read all the books again when i have the time

to end this: i'm a aroace trans man so i'm part of the queer community, if you have a problem with any part of that sentence, please block me and lastly i wish i could follow back the people that follow this blog, but i want to maintain this sideblog with my mainblog completely separate, hope you undestand!

[esther-dot]

Hi Esther!

Would you have a tag (or tags) that I can follow for asoiaf theories and metas on your blog? I feel like I am far behind in terms of fandom speculation/theories that have come out and would really like to catch up.

Thank you <3

Sadly, I was not good about tagging when I first joined the fandom, and I’m still not consistent. 🫣 But I looked around and have found some stuff you might enjoy.

I like these posts about Dany's relationships with her nephews as being foreshadowed by her interactions with Rhaegal (Jon) and Viserion (Aegon). This post about potential foreshadowing for Dany to kill Aegon. This spec about Dany v Aegon and Jon betraying her. This one, about how killing Aegon will not be the victory she expects, and some parallels between him and Robb .

I have a tag for Dance of Dragons 2.0, but the better one to peruse is prolly sayruq's on that topic. Also, just so you know, the fandom at large seems to think "mummer's dragon" means Aegon is fake, but we tend to believe he's Elia's son and that that's about Jon. I'd recommend reading Aegor's tag for more general Aegon content.

I can't find any specific book meta about how the Starks will defeat the Others at the moment, although I linked to a meta about it happening at Winterfell in this post. If anyone has a post they like or wrote on it, please send it catofoldstone's way!

Let's see...I haven't been doing a good job keeping up with meta for the past year, but I think there's good stuff in the Stark v Tag tag which has foreshadowing for conflict between wolf and dragon and spec about Arya and/or Jon assassinating Dany. Oh, here's the tag talking about foreshadowing for Dany to face-off with Euron which I find interesting spec. I do have a few tags I’ve tried to remember to use more, Book Jonsa, R+L=J, King Bran, The Girl in Grey. This post about the Ashford Tourney Theory has links for meta on that (it's a beloved Jonsa theory), and I have a few additional things tagged for it. I also have this post with some favorite Jonsa metas. The Sansa and Lyanna tag has been fun due to @please-dot's eye for parallels.

theusurpersdog doesn't seem to be active any longer, but their posts on Dark Dany are very good. This one has links to the previous ones in their series on her. I like this one about book Jon as well.

I enjoyed howlandreads writing (also inactive), especially this post, Feminine Rebellion in ASOIAF.

Reading trinuviel's post about Dany being Azor Ahai (but that being a bad thing!) was formative for me, so even though I feel like I link that a lot, I shall again! This is the final post in the series and has links to the previous entries.

Fedonciadale is someone I thought of as our very own ASOIAF expert. She passed away a year ago, but I’d encourage you to look through her masterlist. She was a fan of LOTR and Martin is a huge fan (he said he regularly rereads it), so I was very interested in the parallels she found between the two series.

I’m not sure if you were around for this, but Istumpy did a reread project and you can find links to each of those posts in this master post. You may want to look at the summaries for each book in that post to find where the foreshadowing for a specific topic is and approach it that way.

The one meta by someone beyond our corner of the fandom that I think about often is that famous series of essays on Dany because Martin endorsed them. It was written years and years ago, and after reading Martin's words on it, it's hard to understand how Dark Dany is treated as a fringe theory or rejected as part of shipping wars.

I hope you find something you enjoy somewhere in all of that!

[hamliet]

Hey, you still talk about ASOIAF? Really would like to know your opinion about Sansa/Sandor relationship throughout the narrative. That is one of the popular topics from ASOIAF that I see causing different opinions on the internet.

I will always talk about ASOIAF!

I mean, it depends on what you're asking specifically? I see Sansa and Sandor's relationship as a textbook chivalric romance.

Yes, the age thing is weird. No, I'm not excusing it. I am just saying that it is there and fans aren't wrong for picking up on it. I do think it's worth remembering that GRRM originally planned a significant timeskip that would have removed a lot of the weirdness, but then didn't, so.

Nothing about it has to be romantic, though. The thing about chivalric romances is that they are never consummated and remain plausibly deniable. So. Just because there are romantic tropes at play doesn't mean I think Sandor is romantically into Sansa at this point.

The emotional core of their story is that Sansa's arc is a deconstruction of fairy tale princesses that affirms the beating thematic heart at the center of those stories: love wins. Not power. Not titles. Not wealth. Just, love. And it makes a better world.

Sandor is a cynical deconstruction of a knight and is self-aware of it. He's like the GOT showrunners: gritty! Dark! No room for romantic ideals when there's real life and real life is horrible! But it's all you've got so get used to it or die.

But through his relationship with Sansa, as a protector thus far, we start to see embers of actual bravery, kindness, and appreciation for life start to burn in Sandor. He calls Sansa's belief in true knights stupid, but is at the same time challenged to act more like an actual knight who protects kids (like Sansa and like Arya) rather than one who hunts them down because another kid told him to do so (Micah on behalf of Joffrey).

The ideals Sansa holds up, ideals that come from fairy tales, aren't stupid. In fact they're the only way to live in a sense that actually makes the world a better place--and while they may not ensure physical survival, they ensure another kind of survival in those you love (see, Ned, Dany's likely ending, etc).

[reginarubie]

Gentle Mother ~ Font of mercy

[As always the art is not mine the pieces of art belong to their owner and if anyone is and doesn't want them used, let me know and I will take 'em down]

As sparked by this convo.

The theme of the Mother is a very profound one in the asoiaf world. And Martin shows us what the mother is supposed to be (mercy) and also the other side of the coin (vengeance). This theme is weaved intricately with the women of asoiaf.

"Mothers." The man made the word sound like a curse. "I think birthing does something to your minds. You are all mad."  — Bran II, AGOT

There are at least four big characters who embody — in different ways — the theme of the mother (Lysa and Lyanna as well as Elia will be honorable mentions at the end) and those are Catelyn, Cersei, Daenerys and Sansa. — and we'll see how the lyrics of the hymn are retold by these characters.

The point is, only one of these “mothers” actually embodies the Hymn of the Mother and the merciful mother. And that character is Sansa Stark.

Cersei Lannister ~ Mother of Lions, mother of madness — soothe the wrath

So, Cersei, of course, embodies the mother. Even the prophecy Maggy the Frogs gives her is focused not only on her role as queen, but as her role — and her failure — as mother. It is not a chance that Maggy comments on how “her children's crowns would be golden and golden their shrouds”.

This is supposed as much as to be warning as to be a statement and Cersei instead of taking it as a warning, actually becomes the propellent force which causes most of the prophecy coming true.

Her love for her children spurns her to kill Robert, when Ned warns her he will tell the king the truth about her children, and yet it's her ambition for them (and for herself — she does dream of herself sitting atop the IT above all other lords) that puts them in jeopardy in the first place.

Cersei is a destructive mother, she's framed as a mother who will do all to keep her children safe — going to the point she's ready to kill Tommen and herself to avoid they're taken by Stannis — her greatest accomplishment is being a mother and yet to her it's both a chain keeping her on a lesser step, and her greatest weakness.

Cersei has styled herself as a protector, and as her scene with Tywin tells us, there are no lengths Cersei would not go to keep her children safe. She thinks she alone can keep her children safe, and yet she's the reason her children are doomed.

And her children are her doom, too.

To begin with it's Cersei own actions which put Joffrey, Marcella and Tommen in jeopardy; the circumstances of their birth are Cersei's own doing; her ambition pertaining them the reason for their doom.

The fact that Cersei' ambition for her children is the IT means her children are in peril, especially since Cersei is not that much beloved. She takes their birthright for granted — even though they do not have one — and she feels she's far too superior to debase herself with making alliances. Even when her marriage to Loras could ensure the Tyrell's support beyond any doubt she's against it, and we know she's ready to anything to avoid it.

Cersei — as I've discussed in another meta — takes the metaphorical stones thrown at her (for her behavior) and builds a fortress behind which she's sure the fear of her shall keep her and her children safe.

But it is not so. Yes, in the books Myrcella and Tommen are still alive, but we know that will change soon. Myrcella has lost an ear and is very probably traumatized over the whole ordeal — she being pitted against her mother and brother — whilst Tommen is being torn and ripped apart between his “advisors” (Kevan against Cersei, Cersei against Margaery) when he is yet a child.

If Cersei had worked and played good with Kevan perhaps they could've found a way to protect Tommen better, instead Cersei is waging her own personal war against whoever tries to keep her pinned to the ground, to the point she becomes blind to the effects her choices might have on her son.

It is an undisputed theory — and a very believable one — that Cersei' behavior as Queen Mother (and now only regent) to Tommen will easily provoke the ire of the people of KL, possibly causing new riots and rebellions to spark in between the streets.

As Queen, Cersei should've been not only mother to her children, but mother to the people and most importantly to the nobles. She doesn't care. [And this will come bite her in the bum when the time comes]. During the siege on KL by Stannis, Cersei does her duty, by collecting all the ladies of the court, and keep them with her, but that's as far as she goes (beyond terrorizing Sansa, who she is supposed — and does see in her own twisted way — to be mother of, as at this point Sansa is still betrothed to Joffrey), and when the things get really difficult she abandons the ladies in her charge to their fate to “choose hers”.

Children learn by example, and the example they have received is that of an absent father who couldn't care less about them, and a self-entitled mother so ambitious (but lacking real political wit) to want to put her bastards on the Iron throne. And whilst Tommen and Myrcella are too little to show it, Joffrey is the product of this kind of education and his own brand of cruelty and madness.

Cersei fancies herself as the matriarch of House Lannister, much like her father was Head of House Lannister — and for all of Tywin's cunning, his legacy is nothing but a mirror for larks, a lie he tells himself and the realm, a lie that died with him — but as Jaime considers she's neither as cunning neither as capable of Tywin, and she's not as calm. She's like wildfire, and wildfire can kill also its wielder.

In the books Cersei is becoming more and more paranoid and she's taking matters in her own hand — like disposing of Kevan and burning the Tower of the Hand in wildfire — and she feels a twisted, cruel pleasure at being in control. Which makes her dangerous not only for herself but for her children too.

And, that, makes of her a destructive mother. Her wrath makes of her the doom of her children.

“I promise you, no matter where you flee, Robert's wrath will follow you, to the back of beyond if need be." The queen stood. "And what of my wrath, Lord Stark?" she asked softly.  — Eddard XIII, AGOT

Catelyn Stark/Lady Stoneheart ~ Mother of wolves, mother of death — font of mercy

Catelyn is an extremely particular example of mother. She's as fierce as Cersei when it comes to her children — mama wolf caught a valyrian steel knife bare-handed to defend her comatose son — and she's much more calm when she offers advice.

Whereas Cersei looses all power when Joffrey becomes king, a son who up to a point despise her for her weakness too, Catelyn is another thing for Robb. Both mothers have differences with their king-sons but Cersei' steems of her attempt to control Joffrey, whilst Catelyn's steems of her being first a mother and secondly the mother of a king.

She releases Jaime, but she doesn't do it to try and control her son, she does it to try and save her daughters. She gets relegated for it by her son, and her advice is often ignored by Robb after she realizes Jaime; and yet when the moment comes Catelyn dies convinced all her children are either dead (presumed so, Rickon, Brandon and Arya or surely so, Robb) or prisoners (Sansa).

Same as Cersei though, I must point out, Catelyn too is still young and there is talk of her new marriage to strengthen Robb; Theon is considered (which is foil to the Loras/Cersei's betrothal) though in the end another man, more of an age to Catelyn and whom she finds handsome, is chosen for her. Though she never reaches him, as she dies before she can. So, when Beric Dondarrion gives her “the kiss of life” — which, if you think of it, is not by chance that is called such, as mothers give life to their children — Catelyn rises against from death and she rises the vengeful, destructive mother who is hunting down and killing all those she thinks are guilty, one way or another, of the death of her children.

The kiss of life for Catelyn Stark was a curse, just as Maggy's prophecy was a curse for Cersei. Lady Stoneheart is the Mother without mercy, the mother who shows no mercy because she has none in her heart, but for vengeance. The mother whose only purpose is that of avenging her children.

"M'lady." The wine was making her head spin. It was hard to think. "Stoneheart. Is that who you mean?" Lord Randyll had spoken of her, back at Maidenpool. "Lady Stoneheart." "Some call her that. Some call her other things. The Silent Sister. Mother Merciless. The Hangwoman." — Brienne VIII, AFFC

Daenerys Targaryen ~ Mhysa, Mother of Dragons, Mother of monsters — tame the fury

Daenerys is such a tragic character and as @esther-dot has said in her own reply to the ask about Daenerys as a foil to the Virgin Mary, she is the Mother of several, the mother of dragons and Mhysa and yet she does not embody the traits of the mother (and the Virgin Mary, in the details, as those are compassion and mercy and grief).

Daenerys is thirteen when she gets pregnant, so she's extremely young when she miscarries her son and becomes barren. I have explained in several posts and metas how I think things went pertaining Rhaego's sacrifice and the birth of the dragons as Daenerys embracing her inner valyrian and her inner dragon (this serie).

The flames of Drogo's pyre burn away Daenerys' character as mother, and I truly believe that Martin giving her so many titles hinging on the figure of the Mother is meant to showcase how much, with each title she gains, she looses a part of the mother's thematic traits.

Daenerys herself, in her grief and fury, asks herself if she truly had not known the price for the blood magic the maegi did to save Drogo.

As highlighted by the original convo, Daenerys steels herself to not cry, to not show compassion, and to not give into mercy. She becomes the dragon each choice more.

Even though the show framed Daenerys as a merciful ruler who decided her crusade was to free the slaves, that is not the same in the books, as there lacks a scene in which Daenerys formally frees the Unsullied (as her speech during the taking of Astapor shows her telling them they are bought and paid for, that they are hers, to then make the alliteration of freedom/dracarys and you're the dragon's now all the while holding the whip). What she gathers during her campaign east is:

A reputation (Slavers Bay) — as she herself says to Jorah and Barrister, she knows what Aegon proved during his conquest, and that she has a few things she means to prove herself. It's a show of power. (Remember Aegon's formative years were spent with Balerion in the east). Troops (Astapor) — the Unsullied in Astapor, the second sons in Meereen and later the Dothraki (though how that will happen in the book remains to be seen, and how ‘inclusive of all dothraki’ that will actually be as opposed to the show) plus the other companies that compose her new army. A following/labour force (Yunkai) — as she herself thinks as she goes parlay with the masters in Astapor, she feels her following is insignificant and so is she by extention. Taking in her procession around the east the freed slaves of Yunkai gives her that, labour force (this happens in Meereen too) as well as a following which is not insignificant anymore, which makes her no longer insignificant as she felt when she was, for example, in Qart and she wasn't offered poison. Riches to fund her campaign west (Meereen)— despite staying in Meereen to rule, what Daenerys does is not making the best choice for the city, but the best choice to fill her coffers to fund her campaign west of the Narrow Sea. It was explained by better meta-writers than me, how Daenerys completely ignores the commercial importance of some goods, to chose instead coin and precious metals and gems and goods that will serve the purpose of funding her campaign west. Not only that, she reinstates slavery by taking the very same percentage from the selling that the slavers did, all because wars have costs and they're won as much with gold as they are by swords (her words, not mine — Daenerys VI, ASOS).

Why saying all of this? Because the propaganda they used to frame her as Mhysa in the show is the same the slaves of Volantis fall prey to. Her reputation makes the slaves of Volantis pray for her coming and for her to free them all, but it is pretty clear Daenerys will not go to Volantis. She will turn west and begin her campaign to take back the IT.

Daenerys had the moment of choice, to be actually mother to her people. Take her dragons and go to the dead city with her khalaasar and make it bloom again — which would be the definition of mother of her people — instead she choses the path west, the path of war, because the dragons made all the difference.

This is important and it is the second aware choice she makes after the pyre, after becoming the Mother of Dragons (her first choice is the possibly half-unaware choice to sacrifice Rhaego for Drogo, and then Drogo, the stallion, Mirri and herself to raise again with three dragons to her breast) — in fact it is told in the book that the frightened child Illyrio gave as bride to Khal Drogo, the mother of his unborn child, died and was born again as a real Targaryen in fire and blood — and in fact her own fury takes charge of charcter exactly in that moment, when Daenerys realizes what she has done, and accuses Mirri of it). From thereon is a downhill path.

She must not have tears in her eyes, but the flames of the drago's fury when she faces her allies and enemies. Slowly but surely, her fury burns all vestiges of her character as mother. The fact that Martin makes her title pile up with the common theme of motherhood is to highlight how little of a mother her character is.

Mother of dragons, Daenerys thought. Mother of monsters. What have I unleashed upon the world? A queen I am, but my throne is made of burned bones, and it rests on quicksand. Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros? I am the blood of the dragon, she thought. If they are monsters, so am I. — Daenerys II, ADWD

"None, this one grieves to confess. We beg your pardon."

Mercy, thought Dany. They will have the dragon's mercy. "Skahaz, I have changed my mind. Question the man sharply." "I could. Or I could question the daughters sharply whilst the father looks on. That will wring some names from him." "Do as you think best, but bring me names." Her fury was a fire in her belly.  — Daenerys II, ADWD

Up until now, and for every other character associated with the mother, the defense of the children is foremost. And yet Daenerys' children are the dragons, and not even her being Mhysa, saves the girls (girls who are innocent of their father's eventual misdeeds) from torture.

The woman who crucified free men, without any kind of inquiry or investigation, for the crucified children, tortures children to defend men and soldier who should be able to defend themselves. Which is the difference between the soldiers killed and the girls tortured? The girls have no purpose for her, her unsullied being killed put a stain to her reputation and weakens her resources for the campaign west. You can't get much more different from the Virgin Mary than this. Or the thematic Mother. Her song is the songs of the dragons.

Sansa Stark ~ Mother of the North — teach us all a kinder way

Of all the big characters, Sansa is the only one who yet has not known pregnancy or the loss of a child. And yet, she is the character that best embodies the Mother and her mercy and compassion.

Cersei, Daenerys, even Catelyn have turned their mercy off due the trauma they endured. Not Sansa.

The trauma she endured taught Sansa a kinder way. Sansa shows compassion, mercy and gentleness from day one.

She begs Joffrey the stop his squabble with Arya and the butcher boy, hoping she might soothe his wrath; later she pleads for Jeyne to be reunited with her lord father, and she asks mercy for her lord father in open court — kneeling before Joffrey as the Virgin Mary knelt before the cross — she thinks, naively, that the love Joffrey bears her will ensure that her closeness will sooth his fury against her lord father and ensure Ned is pardoned and alive.

She's wrong, and Joffrey shows her so by executing Ned, showing her his head (and her septa's), by beating her for every victory Robb won and mistreating her for her sin of ‘having the blood of a wolf’.

And yet, despite all she endures at the hands of the Lannisters, Sansa still acts. She stills comforts the women during the siege (duty which should have befallen on Cersei), she still helps saving Lancel's life (even though he has taken part of her humiliation and beatings), she speaks out (when no one else did) to save Dontos, she still prays for Tyrion and the Hound, who have shown her a speck of decency (if confronted to the others, which is very below the line of decency but that doesn't figure for Sansa, what little they have done, sparks her compassion for them). Sansa's thoughts go to all, the old and the young, the mothers and the children as well as the soldiers when she prays during the siege of KL.

It's Sansa's doing that the woman with the dead babe is not killed, as she is the one who manipulates Joffrey to give her coin instead of death.

Her singing the hymn of the Mother not only reassures the women, but it also soothes the wrath and fury of the Hound, who had come to rape her. Her singing the hymn of the Mother softens him to her, and he doesn't harm her physically — though he has traumatized her to the point she resorts to romancing the entire encounter to suppress the trauma she suffered at his hands — saving her life and possibly being a pivotal momento for the Hound's future story.

Sansa has become, despite lady Lysa' betrayal, the primary caretaker of her cousin Robert, and she's being a mother to him. It is hinted at, that Sansa will possibly uncover LF' plot to have Robert poisoned and put a stop to it.

Sansa dreams of children, whereas Cersei dreams of the Iron throne, Lady Stoneheart doesn't dream but of vengeance and Daenerys dreams of the Last Dragon.

Sansa's children are foretold to become lords/ladies of Winterfell and restore the North, just as their mother. LF, Lysa and Lady Waynwood all want to use her and her claim, and her son (Ned Stark's grandson)'s claim to take Winterfell and exercise power over the North; the same thing Tywin wanted to do by marrying her to Tyrion.

For now Sansa is still a virgin too.

Even Jon, defending Sansa's claim reminds us that Winterfell is supposed to fall in Sansa's hands and later in her children's.

Another important piece for this analysis comes from this thought:

 In the sept they sing for the Mother's mercy but on the walls it's the Warrior they pray to, and all in silence. She remembered how Septa Mordane used to tell them that the Warrior and the Mother were only two faces of the same great god. But if there is only one, whose prayers will be heard? — Sansa V, ACOK

It's Sansa the one who chooses which prayer to be heard.

She silently steels herself as the Warrior, and her weapons are the compassion and mercy of the Mother.

"Unhand me. You forget yourself." "Mercy. I have been singing love songs for hours. My blood is stirred. And yours, I know . . . there's no wench half so lusty as one bastard born. Are you wet for me?" "I'm a maiden," she protested. — Sansa VI, ASOS

Sansa in her compassion is capable to feel sorry even for Marillion, who tried to rape her and stood by as Lysa attempted to kill her. She feels dirty and sorry and guilty because she has let LF convince her to frame him for Lysa' murder, even though he would not have raised a finger to save her and in the last chapters of her as Alayne we see how this is the pivotal moment which marks her completely breaking from LF' hold. She is against framing Marillion, she'd give him mercy if she could, and this moment marks her return to Sansa Stark, because it's the moment in which more starkly she feels the difference between Ned Stark, her real father, and LF, her false father.

Honorable mentions — Lyanna, Lysa and Elia ~ save our sons from war, we pray

Lyanna Stark —› Lyanna is little more than a child when she meets Rhaegar and bears his son. While we are still in the unknown about how things have gone in the books for Lyanna dn Rhaegar and the show frames it as a romantic escape, I feel confident in saying that as such (or not only as such) it will be in the books. Lyanna only three phrases known are: “Promise me, Ned”, “That's my father's man you are kicking!” and “Love is sweet, but it cannot change a man's nature”. Given this, I would think there is much more underneath the eloping lady to Lyanna, and it will be tragic. And yet, her most important quote is Promise me, Ned. It's the phrase that saved her son, the phrase that saved Jon. Whatever else, Lyanna is a girl, and a mother. A mother who lost her life, and as she did her only thought was the protection of her son. Elia Martell —› Elia is the mother of the butchered children. Being a mother is the core fundation of her character, she risked her life to bear her children, she nursed them at her breast and potentially plotted in a capital against her to save at least her son. Elia showed same as Lyanna that often the strength of women is not in the sword that they may wield, but in their love for their children. Lysa Arryn —› Lysa undoubtedly loves her son, and yet she, if left alone to care for him, would've been his ruin. She is convinced Jon Arryn was speaking about Robert when he spoke about the seed being strong. In her paranoia and fear for her son, she stays neutral during the WO5K, and, later out of madness she attempts to kill her own niece for her jealousy over a man who never was hers to begin with.

Now, that would be enough, but it is not, since part of the whole matter was Daenerys as a foil to the Virgin Mary.

The Virgin Mary ~ Hail Mary, full of grace

Now, we've seen the hymn of the Mother in asoiaf, but what about the prayer of the Virgin Mary? (before we delve into her figure and her traits).

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and in the hour of our death. Amen.

As you can see the hymn of the Mother shares some points with the Hail Mary. And that common trait is the compassion the Mother and the Virgin Mary are the embodiment of.

Mary prays for the sinners, even the same sinners who have crucified her son, always. And that is the cifra of her blessing, she's so pure and “holy” that the Almighty chose her to bear his son, who was born with the purpose of cleanse man of the original sin, and later didn't make her die, but rose her to the heavens, where, as per Dante's and the Church's vision she sits at the place of honor of the Heaven.

In the Divina Commedia, the structure of the heaven itself (once Dante has went through the several skies) is an embodiment of Mary's blessing, as it's a sort of rows of seat ordained in a way that forms a flower...

... wanna guess which one? You guessed it... A ROSE. The celestial rose.

As you can see, Mary has the place of honor, (a woman, has the seat of honor above the men, let that sink in — that was the kind of veneration which surrounds the Virgin Mary). The Virgin is even put in a better seat than Peter and Adam.

Of all the women of asoiaf there is one who is given a rose — in the current timeline, obv — and two more whose' fate was decided by a rose in the past, plus one who is given flowers, but they do not bode well for her.

Yeah, it's Sansa Stark. Sansa is not only given a rose during the tourney to celebrate her father, but she's given the ONLY red rose. Also she's framed as the blue rose (so the rare flower as the blue rose is framed behind her in several instances in the show). The rose of Winterfell, whose son became king in the north.

And if you think about it, Daenerys is given flowers too, but which flowers?, she's given Dusk Rose, Lady's Lace, and Harpy's Gold.

The dusk rose which represents healing — and it connects to the plague in Meereen and the drastic measures that Daenerys is foreshadowed to take once she returns and decides that the compassion she has shown has been spat in her face — it has a purple color, that not only symbolizes royalty, but also of poison (as the poison Daenerys is given in Meereen and that possibly makes her miscarry after she flees, which is a pivotal moment which marks her turning all dragon — as I've analyzed in this post).

The Lady's Lace is possibly inspired by Queen Anne's Lace which is connected with attracting love — and we know one of Daenerys' betrayal will come from love or for of love — and whilst its bloom was believed to cure epilepsy, do you know how people in the ancient times used the seeds of this flower?, to avoid pregnancies or to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, and modern studies tell us there is merit in this ancient medicine for the flower can be dangerous for a pregnant woman. Need I say more? With Daenerys at least one miscarriage, plus probably others she has not recognized as such.

And yes, the Harpy's Gold is a poisonous plant albeit very beautiful. And can a flower symbolize Daenerys as much?, I said once, I'll say again that her names imo comes from the alliteration of Deianira and Iris (which mean in turns “destroyer of men” and “very beautiful woman”). The Harpy's Gold is purple, as Daenerys' eyes.

And obviously the two women in the past whose fate was sealed by roses are Lyanna and Elia, for Rhaegar' naming Lyanna queen of love and beauty. And it ended in tragedy, both women dead, their children either survived by chance and in hiding or killed cruelly.

Also, both sons of these women “resurrect” : Aegon metaphorically by claiming his birthright and his identity after hiding behind his false death and Jon by actually being raised from death.

And what about the Virgin's traits, you might ask?

First of all, the New Testament describes Mary as a woman of such humility and obedience to the message of God that she is chosen to carry his son.

(And I have already discussed on the matter of humility and arrogance of Sansa vs Daenerys, here and here).

On the top of that, Daenerys knows that there are Gods, but she annoverates herself between them:

“Up here in her garden Dany sometimes felt like a god, living atop the highest mountain in the world. Do all Gods feel so lonely?” (— Daenerys VI, ASOS);

whilst, Sansa, despite all the trauma and tragedy she has endured thinks:

“There are gods, she told herself, and there are true knights too. All the stories can't be lies.” (— Sansa IV, ACOK).

Mary has royal blood, and through her blood Jesus descends from royalty too. And, since infancy she has been known for her piety, beauty, gentleness and her devotion.

She's determined in her faith, and she never once turns her fury against the Lord for the tragedy that strikes her life (her son's death), she instead closes herself in prayer and guide others who follow her example.

“Was he mocking her? It wasn't the gods who'd been cruel, it was Joffrey.” — Sansa I, ACOK

“What had she ever done to make the gods so cruel?” — Daenerys VII, AGOT

And whilst the Magi (the three kings who bear gifts for Jesus under a comet) reminds me of Maegi (Mirri who calls herself godswife. With the consequent death of Rhaego, Daenerys' blood sacrifice and the red comet in the sky) here it defines even more the foils:

Daenerys receives “gifts” from her misadventure with Mirri, three dragons as three were the gifts borne by the Magi to Jesus. The point is this:

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words. "Fire and Blood," Daenerys told the swaying grass.— Daenerys X, ADWD

There is in Egypt, near Cairo, the Virgin Mary's Tree, where the Holy Family took at first respite whilst they escaped Herod's fury. Which speaks of Mary's nurture.

Instead the gifts the Magi gives Jesus are supposed to show for his status, whilst Daenerys receives three dragons she uses to subjugate three cities in Slavers Bay.

On the other hand, Sansa is given three gifts as well, in a way, when the comet pass. Her “betrothed — the dragon's heir” (yes this is Jonsa, because Aegon is meant for Arianne, fight me on this and Jon is already defending her birthright which is attacked on all sides); the support of the Knights of the Vale (which will help her from her exile back in her homeland) and I think it's foreshadowed also the help of the Mountain Clans&the Riverlands. As Ned and Catelyn's daughter.

(paraphrasing, she receives three gifts: her compassion, her political cleverness and her honor as well; which will grant her the three above).

Another important aspect I am reminded of, in the books and show, is that, before showing for the first time his miracles, Jesus looks at Mary and awaits for her approval.

Before changing the water in wine, Jesus — who had mostly hidden his miracles for his own safety — looks at Mary and asks her approval, approval she gives by nodding and giving him way for it is time.

Which reminds me of the way Jon (resurrected one) works in tandem with Sansa, he doesn't do everything with her approval, but damn if her approval and her way of thinking doesn't shape him as a king and as a man. Look at the times Sansa nods to him, and approves of him when he is named king.

Haven't seen that in Daenerys, as she is the woman who takes her son's place (she wanted to put Rhaego on the throne even before Viserys died, and then with his death she assumes that role; as well as that of the Stallion who mounts the world, or so she thinks) instead of the woman who is foreshadowed to bring back her son to his homeland or giving her homeland the heir needed, her and later her child.

"Balon Greyjoy thinks in terms of plunder, not rule. Let him enjoy an autumn crown and suffer a northern winter. He will give his subjects no cause to love him. Come spring, the northmen will have had a bellyful of krakens. When you bring Eddard Stark's grandson home to claim his birthright, lords and little folk alike will rise as one to place him on the high seat of his ancestors. — Tyrion III, ASOS

On the top of that Daenerys is barren, so she has no virtual, nor real, heir to her throne; instead Sansa is foreshadowed not only to become queen, but to birth kings/queens. It's the core of her character, restoring the North and rebuilding House Stark.

Mary is the first believer, and she is considered embodiment of the Woman (the perfect example of woman all women should strive to replicate) and the Church itself.

In the same way as Sansa is the epitome of the princess of a song, but she's also the North, she's House Stark — she's the one building Winterfell back from snow — and did you know there is in Italy the Holy Mary Lady of the Snows?, and do you know where is her primary sanctuary? In the city of Sanza. I'm not even joking, look it up!: city of Sanza, 5th of august, Madonna delle Nevi.

Mindblowing, isn't it?

Instead, as the flames are epitome of the Hells, there is not, to my knowledge a Holy Mary associated with the flames, though there is another Holy Mary who is associated with stopping the flames. You know which one is her name?, Holy Mary of the riverbank (yeah I am not joking, again — in the city of Cuneo, there is the Madonna della Riva) who apparently appeared and stopped the flames that were burning the city and had sparked from the sanctuary, saving the people from the fires.

I mean... it doesn't get clearer than that, doesn't it?

And that's it (for now, I've long since learned that no serie of metas is ever done with)

I mean, I knew this one would turn monstrously long (totally blame @esther-dot and @minitafan for this one, which is half classical theme of the Mother and half biblical), but I hope you enjoyed!

As always, if there is someone who is an expert and wants to adds their two cents, be my guests!

Sending all my love~G.

[fvckinaphrodite]

I cannot understand the rationale of "Good Stepmother Elia" or "Catelyn loves Jon Snow" fics where, because of the patriarchal and oppressive institutions, Elia and Catelyn are forced to live with their cheating husbands and, are expected to raise their husband's bastard born out of the infidelity that could pose a risk to their children's inheritance. I love Jon, but Catelyn's hesitance regarding him was valid. He wasn't a son, and he was the source of insurmountable shame to her.

I couldn't have put it better myself, honestly. Those fics disgust me. I find them disturbing and repulsive with the way they turn Catelyn and Elia into Jon's cheerleaders LMAO AS IF. I'm sorry but some of these authors just love to turn every female character in ASOIAF into plot devices for Jon's story.

You will not believe how many fics I've read in which Robb always insists to push both Sansa and Arya further down the inheritance line, and the Northern lords and ladies just nod along and agree like a bunch of baboons and how Catelyn just have to suck it all up. Sometimes there is even a fic or two where Sansa insists that Robb points Jon as his heir to mark her so-called "development" when the narrative brings her to the Riverlands after escaping King's Landing, and in the process, ruining a mother-daughter relationship forever. Guess what's gonna happen? Yep. Robb dies and Jon becomes king with Sansa as his ever faithful advisor. Sometimes even Sansa is pushed away from the North and decides to stay in the South because Gods forbid she ever touch the Northern throne again. Lmao.

Or, you know, the favorite of all Rhaegar Wins AU, fics where Jon becomes the next king after Rhaegar because Aegon is gay and conveniently doesn't want the Iron Throne🥺

I'm a Jonsa stan. I love me some fics with angst; Sansa's struggle to overcome the fact that Jon's existence hurts Catelyn, etc. But there's a line for everything. For example, I fucking refuse to read Jonsa fics where Catelyn is so demonized one would think she constantly beat him when he's a child or told him to become a servant or a stable boy or something. And of course, Sansa gonna defend him with her whole chest and worships the ground he walks on. Lmao Unbelievable. What a way to degrade a female character, to turn her into a plot device--a cheerleader for their hero. Well done.

[cellsshapedlikestars]

I love the talk about who people picture as the characters! As I was originally introduced to asoiaf by the show, Sophie and Kit are Sansa and Jon in my mindseye, so I automatically picture them even when the description does not match the actors. However, after reading the books, that vision has changed slightly, while it's still their faces and not 100% them, and that goes into my writing (when I indulge in writing them). For example, Sansa is not as tall as Sophie, although I do picture her as being tall. Her features are still Sophie, but when she had a softer and less sharper face as she has now. For Jon to me he is clearly taller than Sansa, and not by little (although to me it's not a huge difference either), and he has grey eyes (and if he has Targ connections in the work I like to mention a purple tint that feels almost black). But honestly, I don't mind who people vision as the characters. My only pet peeve is when non Sansa/Jonsa fans remove Sophie as Sansa because they think she was ill suited for the role by using it as an excuse to shade her, because I am very protective of Sophie as Sansa especially because of all the hate she got and still gets for the character.

I think Sophie did an excellent job as Sansa. I might not love the direction they took her character at the end (I've made it no secret that I DESPISE the Ramsay plotline), but while I disliked the writing in especially s7&8, I think Sophie did a great job of infusing life and kindness into Sansa, even with the horrible writing/character choices. I know people give Kit shit for his acting, too, but I honestly think he did the best he could with what he was given, especially with the mental health issues he was going through at the time. But I totally agree, I think she fit Sansa's look better when she was younger & more rounded. (And I also like to sometimes mention that Jon's eyes look almost purple if the light hits them a certain way lol)

[attonitos-gloria]

jb for the ship asks?

jaime and brienne are truly a breaking of fourth wall. it is george turning to his audience and going "you DO get what is going on in this world, don't you? tell me you get it." he does that with tyrion in ADWD, too, and i just love it when george goes meta.

i think they are the most romantic thing to ever happen in asoiaf because of the way they are the embodiment of the true problem of love and courtly romance in westeros which is patriarchy and misogyny and the absolutely insane cages of gender these characters are in. it's very hard for me to get jaime and brienne without jaime and cersei as contrast. this is a jaime/brienne/cersei situation.

what if you grew up as a man, believing you were born to reclaim the fate of a true man - knighthood and glory - and it turns out in real life this just means violence and bloodshed. what if you cope with the horrors of feudalism and patriarchy by blending into one single golden unit with your twin sister who is you who are your sister and that goes on forever. what if you fed each other's cruelty, and bred monsters into the world, and death, and it's all perfect and golden because you're each other's reflection.

what if you often thought if you were a woman you'd be your sister because who else could you possibly be - but of course you'd never be a woman hahahaha this is crazy. of course you are not a woman. (but your sister is, and your sister is you. so what does that even mean? you never think about it, you just disappear inside.) what if your sister is trapped in a house of violence you can only bear witness to, but do nothing about, even with the sword in hand and a white cloak around your shoulders, because this is the fate of all women - marriage and motherhood at whatever cost. what if this isn't even the first time you bear witness to a king being violent to a queen in this same castle in this same bedroom. and your sister thinks if she were a man she'd be you but hahahahah this is crazy, obviously, of course your sister is not a man. (but you are a man and you are your sister. and she is being sacrificed in the altar of gender conformity that is monarchy and you are standing by the door because you are a man and you are a knight - you are thinking, what does that even mean? you disappear inside again.)

what if you believe this is really all there is to being a knight, to being a man, to being a person?

and then what if you meet a woman who is, as far as you can understand it, a better man than you: by being a better knight, by simply being a better human being?

pairing of all time. they don't even need to fuck for it to be real. i think there's a undertone of tragedy in them - i can't imagine jaime ending this series as a happily married man to brienne, i don't even know if both of them will survive, but like. i'm not expecting the next books for them to be canon because in my head jaime and brienne are already a canon relationship of true courtly romance.

(Post edit: might be the reason why I usually don't read fluffy fanfiction of them because it often goes the way of... they will get married and have babies and rule casterly rock together! and while I think it's okay to forge happy endings for beloved characters - i'm a sansa/tyrion shipper, i do this all the time lol - i think there is something apocalyptic about this ship. Like they have the power to ruin this system. Spiritually. I mean, i still read braime fic because the writers are just too good but. I like endings when one of them die. Or jaime goes to the Wall! I like this one too. Or at least they escape Westeros together lol anyway. It is also why i'm also EXTREMELY wary of some jaime ships who just play harder into the gender conformity that i think jaime and brienne are, canonically, breaking and ruining.)

so. basically there is no one else for jaime and brienne but jaime and brienne themselves. perfect pairing. i'd say maybe the only canon pairing ever