#bastardphobia

[daenerysoftarth]

It is interesting how egg repeatedly calls bloodraven ‘baseborn’ and how dunk has to correct him MULTIPLE times, and remind him that he means bastard. Which on its face doesn’t seem that weird given the prejudice of bastards in asoiaf, but considering bloodraven was literally born to a king and a noblewoman he’s about as far from the smallfolk as could be. which again shows how deep the stigma for illegitimate children runs, as in egg’s mind at least there is no discernible difference between how a bastard should be treated and how a peasant should be treated (obviously his views change later on but still)

[horizon-verizon]

I don’t care if a woman commit adultery, puritans should remember that it was once normal for men who murdered their wives to get away with it, or have reduced charges, because of “sudden discovery of a spouse’s adultery.” Infidelity stigma and adultery laws maintain social norms which justify violence, discrimination and oppression of women. To this day, there are many countries in the world where a husband, brother, or father is legally permitted to mutilate or commit an honor killing against a wife, sister, daughter, or girlfriend, if she “strays” or commits a sexual folly, and in the form of state sanctioned forms of violence such as stoning, flogging or hanging for adultery. In Europe, husbands and boyfriends still murder their adulterous wives/girlfriends. Philippines’ law still criminalizes adultery and concubinage, and both are deemed “crimes against chastity” and, unsurprisingly, the law differentiates based on the gender of the spouse. A wife can be charged with adultery, while a husband can only be charged with the related crime of concubinage, which is more loosely defined and harder to prove.

As you shouldn't. Anon may refer to this recent post I reblogged from another.

I'm still iffy about what "concubinage" versus adultery even means in the Philippines, you reminded me to research.

[gameofthronedd]

Rhaenyra and Syrax comprise the most iconic girlflop bastardphobe duo (affectionate) in Westerosi history <3

[ride-thedragon]

Baela in the trailer but no Jace?

Ended the Prince of Dragonstone allegations.

A war amongst dragons......

I know that's right.

[rhaenin-time]

I find it very disturbing how in every Team Green fanfic, Rhaenyra is constantly written as this sex-crazed maniac without a brain, and her sons are all temperamental little monsters hinted to be mad and Ramsay wannabes. Oh, and looking back on every Team Neutral fanfic I've read, Alicent is still the victim, batting her teary puppy dog eyes, and Rhaenyra is still the wicked witch who is spoiled. At the end of the story, Aegon or Aemond is crowned king, while Rhaenyra's sons are either disgraced, sent to the Wall, or worse. HOTD fanfics that claim to be Team Neutral but are still Green sympathetic are something else :/

The problem is that in order to position yourself as "Team Neutral," you kind of need to deny the fact that the Dance was about:

The battle of two ideologies (oath vs. opportunism) in the absence of codified law and a "higher authority." Where the side that claims 'tradition' can more accurately be described as weaponizing certain 'traditions' and biases for opportunism. A battle that concludes with the clear message of, that while oath and honour might not always be enough, that you need to be careful and cannot assume everyone will act under that worldview, that it's the understandings we make between each other that ultimately hold society together.

Patriarchy (and unjust systems in general) punish everyone within them. You're punished for cooperating, and you're especially punished for pushing back. And women like Rhaenyra have to push back, else they'd never see power. But it's impossible for them to push back in every regard because, unless they decide to go Fire and Blood and be labelled a tyrant, they are ultimately still subject to that system. And they'll be punished for any move they make. It's not that "no one is worthy of the throne." It's that the system itself is unworthy. And those are not the same thing.

The problem is, when you examine the story with those two themes in mind, the Blacks are more in the right. GRRM makes it clear they're more in the right. That doesn't mean it isn't complicated. That doesn't mean the underlying system isn't wrong. But there's still a clearly "better" position. It's also clear that Rhaenyra is punished by the unjust system far more than her brothers are, and far more than Alicent is — because Alicent (especially show!Alicent) often makes her own prison.

So the only way to be "Team Neutral," the only way to view it as a conflict where "both sides are in the wrong," is to erase those two very essential themes. And obviously, that's going to be to the detriment of the side that occupies the "high ground" in those themes.

And that's why you get these weird narratives that often play into the very injustices, the very attitudes that the story condemns. Once you erase that condemnation, it's very easy, too easy, to start contradicting it. Because forms of those injustices persist to this day, and they're all too easy to embrace.

[baelorbreakbeds]

[sherlokiness]

Bastardphobia is not being afraid of bastards, it's being afraid of using the word bastard. An alternative name could be half-brother/sister to lessen the fear.

[ladystoneboobs]

y'know it occurs to me that the idea of 'bastardphobia' being the source of all problems in a certain asoiaf main pov, (ie, the erasure of adultery and betrayal as factors in the very specific situation in the stark family/wf household, irrespective of any bastard stereotypes), and the accompanying assumptions that the stigma of being born out of wedlock only exists out of deeper (racial) prejudices and that blended families involving cheating husbands raising a lovechild with their disrespected wives would otherwise be perfectly natural, all of that is necessarily related to the belief that the conquereor trio and their two sons were all one big happy family all the time.

why would visenya using black magic to conceive a rival to aenys be seen as a sign of a problem with rhaenys and her son? no trouble at all in that spouse-sharing paradise! (just like there never could be between elia/rhaegar/lyanna if only the good prince's brilliant plans had all succeeded.) helping to avenge rhaenys is enough proof that the trio always had a beautiful, loving relationship. not like familial vengeance against common enemies is a basic feudal concept regardless of sentiment. (like stannis saying he would get justice for robert and even ned, while repeatedly insisting that robert was not his beloved brother and ned was never his friend.) no, two bickering little girls are the clear stannis/renly equivalent, not sisters producing rival sons leading to kinslaying in the next generation. that was all on maegor alone, and if she can't be definitevely said to have slain aenys, then what does it matter that visenya wanted her son on the throne from day one and ultimately helped him take it from his nephews/her sister's grandchildren? she couldn't have known all that nephew-slaying and niece-rape would result from empowering her bloodthirsty son, could she? could she? can we really dare to cast aspersions on the sacred love and loyalty of visenya for her family? (the fact that polygamy was clearly noted as not a common practice before the conquerors can only be a weird coincidence, right? the only reason no groups of odd-numbered targ siblings had tried this perfect arrangement before must be because they just hadn't thought of it yet. aegon the conqueror sure was a unique genius that way, huh?)

I know you trust [redacted]. But can you trust his sons? Or their sons? The Blackfyre pretenders troubled the Targaryens for five generations, until Barristan the Bold slew the last of them on the Stepstones. If you make [redacted] legitimate, there is no way to turn him bastard again. -Catelyn V, aSoS

imho the real irony here is that cat was not only wrong about the loyalty of the bastard in question, she was wrong about the blackfyres being the apt nightmare precedent. that loser bastard daemon and his loser descendents only ever succeeded in getting themselves slain without ever managing to kill any royal rival or take their throne. but curiously enough, maegor slaying his brother's sons (and forcibly marrying his brother's elder daughter) and successfully taking the crown for a few years, that does sound a bit more similar to the scenario catelyn dreaded. doesn't it?

[smallhatlogan]

lot of female characters are totally reasonable to criticize but the misogynistic fandom hates them sooooo much that I don't think we need to criticize them anymore and actually the bad things they did/said/thought are fine

[daenerysoftarth]

Idk as a mixed kid especially I feel some kinda way about the way white asoiaf fans talk about Cat and downplay her prejudice against Jon. She wasn’t just ‘not being nice’, she was participating in a form of systemic prejudice (bastardphobia) which has killed people, and which has historically most affected marginalized communities and intersected on grounds of race and class. Especially when we factor in the fact that GRRM is American and children born out of wedlock on plantations without rights or inheritances were *incredibly* common during slavery in the US. Seeing what is essentially a bunch of white women arguing in favor of bullying and verbally abusing the children born out of wedlock to their white husbands…. It’s not a good look, and it’s not free of the racial politics which exist in America

[horizon-verizon]

I’m a Filipina and I invite Alicent’s stans to live here where the Catholic Church wields enormous influence and see how they like it. Abortion is illegal in the Philippines, even in extreme cases of rape, incest, and even when the mother is guaranteed to die during childbirth. Divorce is illegal, trapping women in abusive and loveless marriages with no way out. And they can’t seek love somewhere else because the law criminalizes adultery and concubinage, and discriminates against wives. The crime of adultery can be committed only by a wife. The husband need only prove that his wife had sex with a man other than him. The crime of concubinage can be committed only by a husband and is more difficult to prove in court than adultery. The wife must prove that her husband has kept a mistress in the conjugal dwelling, or has had sex under “scandalous circumstances” or lived together with his mistress in any other place. The penalties are also quite different. For adultery, the wife may be imprisoned for up to 6 years and for concubinage, the husband may be imprisoned for up to 4 years.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/18/asia/philippines-abortion-ban-debate-women-rights-roe-wade-intl-hnk-dst/index.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-philippines-divorce-women-idUSKBN1HN046

https://deeply-thenewhumanitarian-org.webpkgcache.com/doc/-/s/deeply.thenewhumanitarian.org/womensadvancement/articles/2018/02/22/in-philippines-where-divorce-is-illegal-women-pay-the-price

https://republicasiamedia.com/decode-why-ph-infidelity-laws-discriminate-vs-women/

I doubt any tradcath will deign to read through the articles you provided, but these are still very useful and informative. Thank, you anon.

The "concubine" part shocked me NGL. Y'all are just giving me all the details about bastardry outside of the U.S., and I am so glad you are!

[visenyaism]

what triggered the daemon riverlands suicide bender again? like did he have a falling out with rhaenyra?

well the book doesn’t say a ton about what happened between them and it’s all made more confusing by the fake historical perspective and weird misogynistic characterization of rhaenyra and mysaria but. fire and blood unserious as it is establishes basically this sequence of events:

-once daemon and rhaenyra get to king’s landing he brings mysaria to court. they’re fucking every night which rhaenyra is seemingly fine with (surprisingly this bit is not a mushroom quote)

-rhaenyra makes a plan to end the war that includes daemon and nettles going and finding aemond in the riverlands to go kill him. unclear whose idea this was or whose idea it was to bring nettles also.

-daemon and nettles hole up in maidenpool because they can’t seem to find the worlds largest dragon actively terrorizing the countryside anywhere. they are weirdly close. because he’s grooming her. they cannot find aemond so theyre stuck like this for weeks. in my mind this is where daemon starts to lose the plot and just not have an exit strategy.

-two of the other dragonseeds betray rhaenyra and join up with daeron the not appearing in this narrative to sack tumbleton. rhaenyra reacts by charging up about 5% of the bastardphobia within the heart of the average team green twitter user and is like okay they are treacherous and base due to their bastard nature they all have to die right now.

-including nettles. rhaenyra sends a letter to the lord of maidenpool saying hey you have to kill this child my husband is obsessed with who is living under your roof i don’t care about guest rite i don’t care about him retaliating against you for this i am literally the king you gotta do it. don’t kill daemon though. xx rhaenyra

-this alienates daemon from rhaenyra permanently though he does take the time to call mysaria a whore and blame her for this too. what an upstanding guy.

-anyways the next morning nettles takes off out of the narrative on her lonesome and daemon tells the lord of maidenpool “this is the last you are ever going to see of me. tell aemond i’m at harrenhal” we can tell at this point there is no exit strategy but for:

-daemon engages in murder-suicide with his nephew who thinks they’re having a fight.

what do we learn about daemon from this? well that he has problems and also doesn’t ever have a long term plan

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

Bethany Antonia is so real for saying that Arya Stark would support Team Black while Littlefinger would be part of Team Green!

And Steve Toussaint is right that Jon Snow would support Team Black.

First of all, Arya and Jon go together as a package, they would never join different sides if they hypothetically lived during the Dance of Dragons. Then, they both have a strong moral code, so they would support the actual heir to the throne, Rhaenyra. Neither of them is allergic to women being in traditionally male dominated spaces and actually dislike westerosi casual sexism. Also, how could they support Team Green aka Team Bastardphobia when one of them is also a victim of bastardphobia and the other doesn't give a fuck about befriending and loving people from different social status?

Let Needleheart travel back in time and they would fight next to Jon's ancestors ( Rhaenyra and co.)

[daenerysies]

“He’s always angry, but we haven’t done anything.”

“…but I have a crooked finger, just like Mama!”

“We were born here. Mama is our mother.”

“I do not wish to be different.” “Nor do I.”

“So let us be good sons and please those who love us, so they may forget what we lack.”

I’m never going to recover from this. Once again scenes were removed that would add to both boys characterizations, and we all know why. The scenes would make the audience realize how Aemond’s ‘I’m being bullied for not having a dragon :( I’m the real victim!’ storyline so fallible and easy to shatter in universe because it’s a completely normal occurrence for Targaryen’s. Aemond is not the first child to not have a dragon by the age of ten, the original conqueror’s, Baelon, Alyssa, Rhaenys, Laena, Viserys, Daemon, Aegon II, Helaena, etc. all claimed young or fully grown dragons somewhere between the ages of 11-18.

The only character that had the potential to be marketed as his biggest bully is his brother. They’re never going to convince me (and many others) that it was Rhaenyra’s sons who would ever go after another child for their lack of a dragon, especially given that they were almost surely taught that hatching a cradle egg is but one way for a Targaryen to have a dragon. Aemond felt lesser than his nephews due to the way Alicent was parenting him. She led him to believe that his nephews were bastards, that due to their blood they were beneath him, and this is what led to his inferiority complex. It makes more sense than the crock of shit the show runners decided to include in the show.

Rhaenyra and her sons were subjected to actual abuse and bigotry over the timeskip due to their gender and their blood, respectively. It very much makes me sick how they’re being treated by not only the show runners, but a decent portion of the audience as well. Bastardphobia is not cool or edgy. Looking down on someone because their parents weren’t married is vile. It falls into the same category as believing in blood supremacy. It’s 2024. Do better.

Jace and Luke will forever be Mama’s boys and are never beating the best brothers/sons allegations.

</3

[pessimisticpigeonsworld]

I feel like this poster doesn't understand how generalizations work in analysis. TB stans say that TG hates the Targaryens and Dany because most TG stans hate them. That doesn't mean every single one of you hate them (although it's baffling to me why you love TG while loving Dany). If what we say doesn't apply to you, then we're not fucking talking about you! Why is that such a difficult concept to grasp?

Also this poster apparently doesn't understand basic genetics. Aegon, Aemond, Helaena, and Daeron are all half Targaryen. Jace, Luke, and Joffrey are also all half Targaryen. TG stans using the Velaryons' paternity and legitimacy as a gotcha is such a tired and baseless argument. It's just utilizing bastardphobia, misogyny, and blood purity (something the Targaryens are criticized for).

If op sees this, you confuse me, so much. Dany would hate the greens. They're misogynists, Dany fights against men's disdain for her gender constantly. Aegon's a rapist, Dany hates rape and rapists (obviously). The greens massacred hundreds of innocents, something Dany vehemently is against. Finally, the greens are usurpers, Dany's family has been usurped, supporting the greens would be like supporting Robert Baratheon.

TG stans, no matter if they love Dany/the Targaryens, are always ridiculous. Their hatred of Rhaenyra and her family just blinds them to everything. TG stans are one of the most annoying and insufferable groups in this fandom and every time I come across one of their posts I lose a year off my life.

[rhaenin-time]

Seeing the bigoted discourse around HotD as an Indigenous woman from an interracial extended family, one full of 'illegitimate' circumstances of births that the Canadian government has always been SO eager to weaponize, and especially as the daughter of a 60s scoop survivor who found his way back to his birth family which means we navigate belonging to two families, of two different races, in two different ways... it's actually hurtful and a little scary to see all the vitriol levelled against fictional 'illegitimate' children by a MODERN audience.

This is a weird example but it's also the most famous. You know that saying about how you shouldn't insult Trump for his body because he'll never hear or be hurt by it, but the people around you who might share those traits will? How when you insult a powerful or abstract figure in a really low way, that insult is not just for them?

Well, when you express bigotry over fictional characters, obviously said fictional character isn't going to receive it. But real people who share those traits will.

I swear, I know I'm basically setting myself up for a never ending 'to write' list at the moment, but I do intend to someday dive into the subject and SHAME the bigots.