#blame tsoa for most of this

[eloquentlytired]

odysseus. sfw.

logan howlett x fem goddess reader

note: this is basically a circe x odysseus!au but also not moving according to the actual story. I've alternated the ending too. I've always wanted to write logan in such a theme/au so I'm happy that I did. it's short but still feeling satisfied. I also blame Madeline Miller for her amazing writing, just finished reading circe and I cried AGAIN. first tsoa and now circe.

warnings 4 this ?? bittersweet, hurt to comfort, reader is just a girl that's thousands of centuries old, logan is a worn out warrior, he'll never introduce himself in the story btw

“I heard my men came this way, my goddess. I mean no harm or to intrude but to only ask your assistance to find them.” His voice was soothing but raspy. His shoulders sunburned but prideful. Age was evidently catching up to him but he remained as handsome as other mortal men you'd witnessed before, although not plenty. You wondered if he would be any different but then you remembered the nature of all men before him and you mentally shook your head. He was just another pig to be.

You welcomed him to your home and offered him the best hospitality like you did to all of your guests. He ate as he spoke to you about a distant home he was missing, then his wife, and for a while you wondered if having a wife would make him less of a monster. But the men before him surely would have wives too, or loved ones, and if not most of them then some of them. Yet they had still been pigs.

He could sense your hesitation and you could sense his. At some point you noticed that he had not touched his wine — clever man he was. It was the wine that would cause him harm and he somehow knew. He kept twisting the full goblet in his hand without ever drinking from it, his mouth occupied by mere words of his trips and his suffering.

“You have not touched your wine.” You told him and his eyes glinted as he looked at you. He definitely knew.

“My goddess, if you'd allow me to speak honestly.” He said and you offered him a firm nod. You were fearless and he clearly liked that by the way he smiled at you. “My men. You have done something to them,isn't that right?”

A sly smile adored your features and to your surprise his own never disappeared.

“I let them in,fed them and cared for them. Yet they wished to steal from me.” You responded while circling him like a predator. That's what you were — and those stupid men were your prey.

“I have spoiled them. They're all idiots whose judgement has been clouded by the endless war.” The handsome man explained as he stroked his beard, his eyes following your every move. He turned with you as you circled him; as if this was a game. Perhaps it was.

“They are idiots and to that we may agree.” His smile grew at your words and he tilted his head slightly.

“I don't wish to fight you, my goddess. I see no reason to. Do you?” His goblet remained in his hand, untouched and filled to the brim. Despite him toying around with it, the wine never spilled from the cup.

“You knew about the wine.” You suddenly told him.

“And you know about the flower.” He shot back and the two of you exchanged glances longer than any season of time. Your face beamed with energy and warmth while your eyes moved like a prying serpent. His, on the other hand, were cautious but delightful to look at.

“Hermes gave it to you, did he not? And yet you haven't used it against me.” The man's next actions surprised you as he grabbed his satchel and threw it on the stoned floor. The roots of the flower, which was meant to go against you, were visible within the satchel.

You stared at the stranger in disbelief but he smiled again. Almost laughed.

“Like I said, respectful goddess, I see no reason to fight you. It's just not within reason to do so.” His words surprised you even more, how smooth of a talker he was but also how intelligent. Bards would die for this type of inspiration while others would sacrifice whatever for even half of his sentence’s worth. “My men are stupid but they mean no harm. The Trojan war has corrupted their minds but also I, their captain, have failed to properly teach them manners. They're young.” He took a step forward but you didn't cower. He appreciated that.

“Get to your point, mortal.” You said while raising your chin with pride, challenging him with your gaze.

He grinned and his teeth showed. “All I ask is to get my men back. In return, I will offer whatever I can to you.”

You thought about the events unfolded ever since your birth. How little you knew for your age; so old you'd forgotten it yourself. You were the daughter of a Titan, not newborn divinity. You knew what mistakes were better than anyone and you had learned, one way or another, to distinguish good from bad. This man was neither.

And then the agreement was made.

His men were back to their original humane forms and dined happily downstairs, finally at ease. You let them for the sake of the man that had charmed you with his words and brains.

“Our agreement.” That familiar raspy voice called out to you and you turned around, staring at his form on the doorway. He was leaning against it like he'd been here before but it didn't insult you.

He approached you slowly, one step after the other. His face hovered closely over yours as he spoke again. “One kiss.” The man repeated what you'd requested of him that night but before he could complete his pay, you stopped him.

He froze upon feeling your fingers upon his lips and his eyes stared at you — more worried than feared.

“I changed my mind.” You whispered as your fingers caressed his lips, chapped and rough. The man remained still as he listened. “I ,once, turned a girl into a monster for supposedly taking away a man I loved. I don't want to do the action which I punished someone for.”

The man nodded then smiled. “I have not met a woman wiser than you,my lady.”

His words brought a smile to your face, one that wasn't sly or contained hidden meanings. It was simply an act of delight.

“All this just to see her?” You couldn't help but ask, referring to his wife.

“Yes.” He answered with pride, and most importantly love, in his eyes. You dragged your fingers from his lips to his cheek and he leaned into your touch willingly.

“I don't know what that's like. To have a husband that actually loves you. All the men around me were never good to their wives.” You told him and something swirled in his orbs — rage.

“Then they were fools.” He whispered. “Even bigger fools for not treasuring you.”

You buried your face into his neck and he let you. His touch was warm and gentle, one arm hugging your waist while the other cradled the back of your head. The touch was so careful, almost fatherly, and you could not remember the last time someone had treated you so gently. So kindly.

You cried in his arms as he held you until the moonlight shed its final moments.

“I will need a few days to fix our ship—”

“Stay.” You cut him off. “As long as you need."

He nodded while tightening his arms around your smaller frame, his large hand still cradling the back of your head as if trying to ease the thoughts that weighed it down.

No matter what, you would help him and the others get home.

[johaerys-writes]

i just read someone blaming madeline for patrochilles as a couple existing and telling people to write/read apollon x hyacinthus… as if aeschylus, one of the most influential names in greek literature, did not literally write them as a couple back in ancient greece… but it was certainly madeline who came up with the idea!! plus apollon and hyacinthus do not have the same dynamic as patrochilles, acting like apollon and hyacinthus is a substitute for patrochilles is stupid. it makes it seem like you think the person just likes the couple because they're m/m and therefore any m/m couple works for them. i honestly consider this almost something at least slightly motivated by homophobia… something like damn these people should restrict themselves to this ship that I chose because I know what an acceptable queer ship is and, anyway, since they only like queer things without any other personality factor any couple consisting of two men will be their otp! that's not even as complimentary to apollo x hyacinthus as they think it is, it's basically throwing them in the shadow of patrochilles. people really show that they do not read the ancient sources while complaining endlessly that people do not read the ancient sources….

Ah but of course, why don't you ditch your current blonde x brunet pairing and embrace this new and shiny blonde x brunet pairing? After all, they have so much in common.... featuring one blonde and one brunet character 🙄

Honestly, I used to be moderately interested in apollo/hyacinthus, I even enjoyed some art here and there, but the way so many people on tiktok/instagram/tumblr etc recently seem to be trying to push Apollo/Hyacinthus as the new "it" thing, or seem to be in a race to publish the TSOA version of the pairing while simultaneously shitting on tsoa is just.... lmao.... and, you know, that's perfectly fine. Whatever gets people writing and creating is fine by me but why do you need to bash another pairing in order to uplift your own? There's room for everyone here. But a lot of people don't seem to get that. Trying to bring current fandom fuckery and discourse into millenia old ships is at least laughable to me. Like please, I beg you, find another hobby.

(Also, re: the whole "madeline miller invented patrochilles" thing, I just have to quote what a mutual told me recently: when will those ancient Greeks (Aeschylus, Plato, Pindar, Sosias, among others) stop taking inspiration from TSOA for their patrochilles fanfic and fanart???? 🤨 Enough is enough!!)

[patrochillesvibes]

O and I have an other question how do you think Achilles will react once he finds out about the fact that Patroclus had slept Deidameia. Because I do believe Patroclus haven’t to Achilles about it .

<3 <3 <3

Ah, the single plot point in TSoA I disagree with.

🎵How do you solve a problem like Pyrrhus🎶

So if we’re all gonna suck Homer’s dick, then let’s all get on the same page that Deidamia isn’t in the Iliad. Or the Odyssey. You also gotta be careful with any source material mentioning Deidamia as most of this content was part of a smear campaign by the Italians coughDantecough.

Pyrrhus is such a random character if you think about it. Achilles was not married, otherwise Agamemnon wouldn’t keep trying to get him to marry his seemingly endless supply of daughters. Pyrrhus isn’t labeled as a bastard, but what else could he be? Achilles would’ve had to have knocked up some chick.

And isn’t it strange that Achilles would do this? I don’t want to say it’s not in character, but it seems strange compared to his prophecy-focused life. (Also, Patroclus and Achilles don’t have little bastards running around the camp, so do we really believe they’re fucking the slaves? If they’re fucking the slaves, where are the babies? Birth control and abortions were not that good in 1250 BCE. But I’m getting super off topic now.)

This is why I personally believe Achilles found a random baby, adopted it, and had Mother feed him ambrosia.

I’m very passionate about ^this headcanon of mine.

Now back to TSoA…

First off, remember that Patroclus is a LIAR. He is not just full of bologna, he’s made out of bologna. He wants us to believe he’s a feminist? Anti-war? A doctor? Achilles is perfect? Patroclus PLEASE!

But you have to respect the lies because TSoA is essentially an autobiography and lying is like the first law of autobiography writing.

I’d also like to point out the clever literary trick at the end of TSoA. The book ends with Patroclus and Thetis chatting about Achilles. She says “Speak, then” to get Patroclus to share his memories. Thus, the book is not so much an account of his life, but essentially all the memories he had to share with her. He wants to show her how glorious her son was, the side she never got to see, the human nature she shunned, Achilles’ mortality. So of course he’s going to highlight the good, even enhance it as well as downplay or even lie about the bad.

But back to your question…

What happened at Skyros? Patroclus wants us to believe a lot of non-con was going on. I low-key have a very messed up theory about what actually happened and why it happened, but I don’t want to get into it rn a blogger on here might be unhappy bcs of a related ask I coincidentally just sent them. So for simplicity's sake, let’s assume that the non-con did indeed happen. I think he told Achilles a half-truth. Something to the effect of mentioning having comforted Deidamia and given her an official farewell (of the husbandly kind) on his behalf. He used a lot of double-meaning words to allow Achilles to interpret as he pleased.

And how did he interpret what Patroclus told him? First he was relieved that he would not have to deal with her again. Then he was his usual dumb blonde self (Patroclus calls this 'trusting', Pat pls) and took the words at face value. And I wouldn't blame him for it. When traumatic things happen to you, you do what you can to cope.

And please don’t take this as victim blaming or non-con denial, but the last lines of Chapter 13 never sat quite right with me.

Sorry to keep harping on the lying. Part of me thinks the scene with Deidamia was either a hallucination-false memory sequence to reinforce that patrochilles is 2-bodies-1-soul -what happens to Achilles happens to Pat; and part of me thinks this was Pat’s sly way of showing Thetis how she hurt Achilles by enabling the non-con. Sadly, we'll never know the truth, so it's up to you what you want to believe.

I hope this rambling rant answered your question. Thank you for the ask! I LOVE LOVE LOVE The Song of Achilles and am capable of ranting and raving about it for hours at a time 😘

[patrochillesvibes]

Hi.

Many people read TSoA Patroclus as a twink bcs he deigns to have emotions.

Emotions = Feminine = Weak

It's just toxic masculinity combined with the inability to read between the lines.

We see a (gay) man with emotions and immediately label him as the twink/sub/bottom/uke.

Men feel emotions. Society just makes them bottle it up. But guess what? TSoA is basically Patroclus' internal monolog.

Patroclus is not a twink nor a femme in TSoA.

He is a solider who, shocking I know, has emotions. We are reading what is basically a autobiography where a solider is honest about his feelings. But most importantly he is also...

An Unreliable Narrator

Patroclus is an unreliable narrator. He focuses on the good and frames the bad to look good. Briseis is a friend and a captive, not a slave and concubine. He is a medic who heals, not a charioteer who slaughters. Achilles is sweet and blameless, not unstable and selfish. Pyrrhus is a child conceived through rape of the father.

It's fine if you want Patroclus to be the twink/sub/bottom/uke in your headcanon. It's fine if you want him to be femme. You are free to interpret how you like. (I disagree if you interpret TSoA Pat as such)

To the antis I just want to say stop blaming TSoA for your inability to handle nuance and your compliance with toxic masculinity.

Listen, not liking the song of Achilles it's ok, but acting like Patroclus would be weak/worse if he was feminine, that's a whole separate thing.

There's nothing wrong with Patroclus being feminine. Stop acting like a man being feminine suddenly means that he is weak.

Patroclus has been characterized as the feminine/innocent one long before TSoA (Troilus and Cressida, Troy 2004) because his main characteristic is being kind and kindness is commonly associated with femininity and/or naiveness (at least in a more modern society).

(Also, I just wanted to say that kindness is also associated with boyhood because boys are "less man" and that's why I think Troy (2004) portrayed him as the younger one, to avoid portraying him as feminine while still not making him a "man man". Because we all know that is illegal for men to be kind)

[fw00shy]

Prophesy

For @drarrymicrofic prompt, better than fighting. This is a 1.4k "microfic" lmao. You can read on AO3 as well as here.

You know when you look at someone and just know they're no good? Pansy says it's a sure sign that they pissed you off in a past life. I tell her that's about the funniest shite I've ever heard. I don't need divinity to explain myself; I've always been good at reading people. That's just how I am.

Say, Pansy. I knew we'd hit it off the moment I saw her head-to-toe in Prada, her hair as glossy as volcanic glass. That's not fate: that's good taste. And Crabbe, well — that one is a bit odd, I'll give you that. Lord knows why I have a soft spot for him when he's far too much trouble for his worth. Nearly got me killed once or twice, even. Not literally, of course — just at the bars, when he drinks me under the table. Pansy says he's "mine" the same way Theo is "hers"; I've never cared for Theo. He seems the type of guy who holds back while you make a rash of bad decisions. Mind you, Pansy isn't much better either, but at least she's always right there, too, making the same damn mistakes.

Pansy asked me what Theo did to piss me off so much. I made up some lie about how he didn't warn me about a rotted foundation on a house I was trying to sell, but really, I don't know why I think that about Theo. I'm a genius people-reader, alright? And I don't question intuition.

So I'm not worried when Blaise calls me in to meet a high-profile client. Rich geezers, they're all the same. And I've seen this one plenty in the newsstands before, so I've already sussed him out. He always looks like he doesn't want to be there. A bit sullen — dead inside — but harmless enough.

"Seems a trifle odd, doesn't it?" I tell Pansy that morning. "He could've called me direct. My number's on half the park benches around his neighbourhood."

"Maybe he thinks you'll say no," Pansy says. She has that faraway look in her eyes she gets every morning before the caffeine kicks in.

"Why would I say no?" I laugh. "I'd be an idiot to give up a million-pound commission."

She's not paying attention to me. Her eyes bug out and her lips part. It's like she's in a bloody trance. I swear she does it just to piss me off.

I'm still thinking about her ugly mug when I'm going up to Blaise's office. He's got the entire penthouse of the building for him to sign papers, and the elevator ride up the twenty-three floors leaves plenty of time for spacing out. So I'm caught off guard when, coming out of the elevator, Harry Potter smacks straight into me and all I want to do is kill him.

Oh lord, how I want to kill him. My rage builds so strong that I'm taken out of my body. Where I go, I don't know. But when I come to, Potter is gone and I'm sitting across from Blaise.

Blaise has his pitying face on, the one he practices in the mirror. His hands are clasped over the expansive walnut desk (live edge, of course), his suit as green as Potter's eyes.

Potter's eyes. Merlin, I barely remember meeting the man, but it's all I can think of now. That luxurious, deep emerald. Green as everything I ever wanted.

"No," I say. "I won't take him on."

"Dee," Blaise says, gentle. His brows raise.

I'm on the spin bike at the gym trying to blow off some steam when Pansy calls and says, "Blaise is right, you know," her voice tinny above the whirl of bikes around me. "You'll be stupid to walk away from a million pounds over a premonition."

"He's a lying tramp, I swear. I'll put in all this work, set up the listing, stage the place, and then he'll change his mind and walk right out. I know. He's a ticking time bomb."

"So...." she giggles, "what'd you think he did?"

I'm confused for a second, but then I realise she's probably talking about her reincarnation theory again.

"Don't you dare start on this past life shite," I warn. "I'm not in the damn mood."

"Maybe he razed your lands. Ohhh, can you imagine, Harry Potter — a viking? All that fur… mm, and those horned helmets. Sure makes me horny —"

"Jesus, woman. I'm at the gym."

"Okay, okay," she says. "Since you're at the gym, what about this: Harry Potter as naughty, lying George Wickham. And you: the poor Lydia Bennet, tricked into a life of poverty and ridicule for the rest of your days. Embittered, you —"

"That's Jane Austen, that's not even real life," I say before hanging up.

I meet Potter at his Islington townhouse the following Tuesday. He's a capital C celebrity so he's got no regular day job, which makes him horrifying easy to slot into my schedule.

"You're late," I say as soon as he opens the front door. He runs a hand through his tangled hair — soft, I know — and bleats out an apology as I brush past him into the grim, old place. The hallway is long and dark. There's a kitchen in the far west corner overlooking the garden. And upstairs there are three bedrooms, of which the medium-sized one is his because it faces east, and he enjoys waking sun-rumpled and satisfied.

The floorplan, I pulled from public records. The rest, I — well, I don't know. I just know. I know it with such vivaciousness that I can see us there, on his — no, our — bed, his arm thrown across my chest, and I —

"Draco?" he asks, tentative. Like he's found something he's lost but isn't sure what to do with it, yet.

My hands clam up, my heart racing back to the present. He's only a foot from me, his doe eyes searching. I know what it feels like to pull him in by the waist, to watch those lids flutter shut as we kiss. And I know he knows this too, so I lean in and punch his face.

"He called me Draco," I say to Pansy later. "Draco. Only my mother calls me Draco, and she's been dead a full decade."

"You're crazy, Dee," Pansy says, patting my hand with hers on the bar counter. "What did you do after? Get on your knees to kiss his arse so he'd keep you on?"

"Bloody hell, no. I bolted the fuck out of there thinking I lost the biggest deal of my life. But then the next day, Blaise calls and says Potter stopped by the office. Says could I get him a list of stagers, all cool and shite like nothing had happened!"

"Hm… maybe you two are more Troilus and Cressida than Brutus and Caesar. Ohh, or Achilles and Patroclus. God, yes. That fits so well —"

"Good God, woman! Unless Patroclus was trying to sell Achilles' ionic column abode, I don't want to hear another peep of past lives from you."

Pansy pushes her martini to me and waits for me to drain it before signalling for another round. "I'm only saying," she says, tapping her square-tip nails on the stem of the glass, "Kissing. Fucking, even. Wouldn't that be better than fighting?"

Naturally, I choke on my drink.

I meet with Potter the next day and manage to get through the walkthrough without any further hallucinations or fisticuffs. I call Greg up to stage the place and we go through the house again the following week. Potter's in the kitchen when Greg leaves and offers me a cup of tea while I wait for my car. I'm out of excuses and exhausted from the day, so I accept.

"Draco," he says when he hands the cup to me. Two sugars, a splash of milk. I try not to think about how he knows.

"Why do you call me that?" I ask instead, blustering.

"Why do you call me Potter?" he retorts. He's smiling, but I can tell he's not really happy. It's the same smile the paparazzi catches him with.

"I don't know," I say because I don't. My tongue knows his name better than I do.

I can't keep my eyes off of his as he comes up to me. "Draco," he says my name like he had a claim to it, long ago. I let him loosen the cup from my hand and push me up onto the counter. The angle's better here; perfect if I want to slide my hand up to his cheek and through his hair. He smells like broomstick and phoenix ash. I love him, I know. But it's not supposed to be this easy.

[maggiecheungs]

a chief must make sacrifices, right? // i’m not a hero in a movie.

[aficionadoenthusiast]

tsoa IS a good book, even divorced from the iliad, and its a very emotional interpretation of the relationship between achilles and patroclus. But you cant fault someone being frustrated that for a majority of people, at the very least on this site, tsoa's interpretation is THE ONLY interpretation of the relationship between achilles and patroclus, because their only knowledge of the content of the iliad is what was said in tsoa. And Miller (purposely, and its not inherently a bad thing) made a lot of changes to better fit the narrative of what tsoa was trying to say: patroclus' worth was disminished (reliable narrator... unreliable narrator... the text is still the text) to emphasize his adoration of achilles, and it was effective! But the frustration comes from the constant lack of awareness people have of the distinctions between patroclus' modern portrayal (which is not entirely Miller and tsoa's fault: hades game and now, the holding achilles play also portray achilles' and patroclus dynamic in a similar way as tsoa) and how patroclus, and achilles for that matter, are in the actual iliad.

There is also thetis, and while I am not here to judge Miller's antagonizing of thetis in her book (which again, fit the narrative), you have to admit it is a bit saddening to see thesis constantly villainized without distinction wheras thetis in the iliad, had no actual ill toward patroclus, her most defining interactions with him being her weeping with her son on the shore while hes holding patroclus' body, and her giving patroclus the nectar and ambrosia of gods to keep his body from decomposing. Her relationships with both her son and husband were also "healthier" as she embody maternal love as her narrative role in the iliad.

Lastly, I think it all just comes down to tastes: while I do appreciate the soft and dramatic, almost forbidden, yearning of tsoa, I think I would enjoy it more if it was a more casual, unquestionned kind of love, the one you dont really think about until it is violently and tragically taken from you. After all, gay relationships are as diverse as any relationships. And I feel this one lacks representation, not just for achilles and patroclus, but just in general.

I apologize for the essay, this is not meant to be an attack nor a lesson, just to offer an argument from another point of view. A plesant day or night to you

hi anon! this is the post they're talking about for anyone interested.

first off, i want to say thank you for being respectful. when i opened this ask, i was honestly expecting something way worse just based on the tsoa hate i've seen.

second, when i say tsoa hate, i'm not talking about people who are frustrated that the majority of the iliad retelling content is tsoa or the people who just didn't like the book. that's fine; everyone's entitled to their opinion, and i don't expect everyone to love the book as much as i did, and, honestly, i can understand the frustration (though i generally am only looking for tsoa stuff)

everything you said is very true, but the hate i'm talking about are the people who are straight up blaming madeline miller and tsoa for everything wrong with all modern portrayals of the iliad. i won't link any of it because i don't want people who see this to click on the links just to spread hate, but believe me when i say there is a ton of it, and most of it is full of toxic masculinity, almost none of it as tagged as hate or anti, most of it mentions achilles and/or patroclus as 'soft uwu gays', all of it tags just 'tsoa' or 'patrochilles' so anyone looking for tsoa content has to see it, and all of it hates on miller for being uneducated for bullshit reasons.

the 'soft uwu gays' is the thing that really bothers me. (look up 'soft uwu tsoa' to find some of it if you want to see what i'm talking about.) hating the book is fine! like i said, not everyone's gonna have the same opinion on the book as i did. but ignoring the whole message of the book to instead prioritize traditional ideas of masculinity, and then to act like the book is feeding into a gay stereotype by making the two of them loving partners? that is straight up homophobia and sexism.

besides, the book is a retelling. it is not gonna be the same as the iliad, and that's how it's supposed to be. the point is to offer new perspectives on old stories.

i will admit that the tsoa fans that act like it's just another version of the iliad and can be taken as a substitute for the iliad are annoying and wrong. there are indeed many differences.

(reiterating: no hate on you! you were incredibly respectful and made very good points, and i'm not trying to call out everyone who didn't like tsoa! just the ones who can't figure out how to hate respectfully or have a conversation instead of an accusation match)

for the unreliable narrator thing, that is a big deal imo. if the narrator is unreliable, there is nothing in the book you can trust. in this case, the part you can't trust is patroclus' true role in the fighting as well as the real level of badassery between the two of them. like i said in the original post, the book was purposefully written to leave out a lot of the fighting because she wanted to highlight the duality of warriors, but the soldiering side is already known from the iliad which left madeline miller to speak on the loving side of patroclus and achilles via patroclus' perspective and narration.

as for thetis, i'm not gonna lie, i have not yet read the iliad, but i have read excerpts, summaries, and i have studied it (i just lost so much credibility but it's fine), so i can't speak on her tsoa portrayal (though i will say that i have never acted like tsoa is canon iliad). what i can speak on is growing up with controlling parents. i'll just leave it at it fucking sucks. although, it would have been cool to see a supportive thetis!

thanks for the ask! and, again, most of this doesn't apply to you! you were very respectful, and you had very good points!

have a good day or whatever time it is where you are!

edit: i took out the first reference to canon relating to the iliad. see notes for more info.

[muttsona]

yeah okay but what gods do i have to sacrifice to for a version of tsoa in achilles' perspective. i need to know if he thinks patroclus is as beautiful as patroclus finds achilles. i need to know how he felt after patroclus kissed him. i need to know what he was thinking as he laid in his dead lovers cold arms. what was it like not being prepared for the death of his lover? what was it like knowing your mother hated the one you loved the most? i NEED to know how all 369 pages effected achilles, and while im glad we got the story through the perspective of patroclus it isnt enough. i need to know when achilles realized he turned rotten. i need to know if he blamed himself for patroclus' death. i need to know all of it😭‼️

[classicslesbianopinions]

Do u consider/ adaptations of classic works that are looser/don’t hold the same name etc, to be the same as adaptations that are retellings? Like, to what standard does discussion around those have to change vs a retelling or a myth? The example I was thinking of was Yorgos Lanthimos’ killing of a sacred deer which is an adaptation on Iphigenia? But if you have any others in mind I’d love to hear your thoughts on them! Also this blog is my fav ever tysm for what u guys do

ahhh well i'm glad you like our blog!

i've been thinking about this lately too especially with reference to like. myths adapted for kids or adapted into a certain genre or time period. i don't know killing of a sacred deer, so i can't speak to that, but i think 1. i talk a lot about "feminist" adaptations because if a story is marketed as "feminist" i'm going to hold it to a high standard, and 2. if your story is very literally centered around a certain myth or subject, it had better do that myth or subject justice.

the specific adaptations i'm thinking of here are percy jackson (which sanitizes some stuff because it's like. literally for children), the chilliad (which is a modern adaptation where the iliad is a prank war between frat houses), and oh brother where art thou (which i haven't seen in ages but which is sort of a looser adaptation of the odyssey). i consider all three of these to be good adaptations (uh with the major exception of the whole "western civilization" thing in percy jackson, as we have discussed) because they take a story and they turn it into something new, and i don't think like... every adaptation has to face all the horrors. i just think certain stories are inherently rooted in trauma.

like, i criticize madeline miller for not giving briseis' status as prisoner of war its full weight because like... she spends a lot of time explaining why It's Fine, Actually, women can be prizes as long as patroclus treats them nicely, and the story is set during the actual trojan war, so there's a lot less leeway in my view. but in the chilliad, for example, briseis is just a friend of the frat bros who gets caught up in everything, and that makes sense because 1. it's a lighthearted modern adaptation, and 2. the story isn't really trying to explain why a bad situation is fine, actually-- it's just... a different situation that better fits the setting and tone of the work.

but also, like, i don't think you can adapt the hades/persephone myth into any genre or time period and romanticize it because the fabric of the myth is this traumatizing event. or, like, you can, but i feel that's irresponsible. BUT if you have a story that features hades and persephone as background characters and you depict them as a couple, for me that's fine. because it's just like... not focusing on that one narrative.

so yeah i think first of all if an adaptation doesn't describe itself as "feminist" or isn't touted as like. the Most Progressive Thing Ever i'm a lot more lenient, and also, yeah a looser adaptation or an adaptation for a specific audience is different from an adaptation that closely follows the events of the myth in the ancient setting. (another reason that i come down hard on madeline miller, actually, is that her stories are very accurate to the extant source material. by which i mean, tsoa and circe both use almost every known myth, and almost everything that happens in those books is based on a myth about achilles or circe. so the way she interprets those myths means a lot.)

the purpose of an adaptation isn't to be as accurate as possible, it's to make a new work of art. it actually took me a very long time to understand this (uhhhh we can blame the autism, probably), but adaptations are much more enjoyable if you're not trying to make them a 1:1 comparison to their source material. and they're a lot more fun to criticize if instead of saying "this is where it's not accurate" you can say "this is where i disagree with the interpretation." but i actually love, so much, a loose adaptation where you can see all the little things the writer put into the story from the source material. like, i love seeing the clever ways things get adapted and shifted from one time and place to another.

i'm not sure how much of this is actually what you were looking for with this ask, but like... yeah these are some thoughts about adaptation!

[darlingpoppet]

I’ve been lurking the Tumblr tags for months at this point but I suppose now is a good time as any to say I’ve completely fallen into Patrochilles hell (The Song Of Achilles, Hades, the Iliad, and literally every other depiction I can get my hands on) so the reblogging on here might ramp up in the near future since I’m a bit sorry I haven’t been putting things here, lol.

I wanted to share that I’ve already written a couple of fics for the ship, which are on AO3:

Once More

A Hades game-verse drabble in which Zagreus discovers Achilles has done a rewrite of Patroclus’ codex entry after their reunion. 1016 words, Rating: G

Upon A Lazy Bed

A Song Of Achilles fic that brings in a few (more) elements from Shakespeare’s Troilus and Cressida and the Iliad. It mostly takes place over the period between the first day of Achilles’ withdrawal and the arrival of the embassy. Tensions begin to mount in the Myrmidon camp and Patroclus finds himself suddenly receiving most of the blame. 4737 words, Rating: M (includes non-explicit sex, some implied homophobia, and canon-typical violence/violent imagery)

Please check them out if they seem like they’re up your alley :)

Right now I’m also working a TSOA-verse Achilles POV character study as well as a multi-chapter Hades game amnesia AU (probably the lowest hanging fruit for Patrochilles in that game lol but I decided I have a story in me about it!) I’m looking forward to sharing them soon <3

If anyone here wants to chat Patrochilles, Hades or Greek mythology in general with me, def hmu <3<3

[greek-mythos-retold]

I think the most important thing to remember about the Trojan War is that there is no good guy or bad guy. There is no one to blame. When it comes down to it, the Iliad is very much anti-war. It shows the devastations that war has on all sides, and it doesn’t simply portray one army as the good guys and the other as the bad guys - that’s what makes the literature surrounding the Trojan War so interesting in my opinion. And people naturally want to assign labels of good and evil, which is why we often see people saying that Hector is bad and Achilles is good or vice versa. But we can’t say that one person is good and the other is bad because every character is flawed and human, and they all come from very different walks of life. They all have different reasons for their actions - Hector doesn’t kill Patroclus out of malevolence, he kills him because this is a war and that’s what happens - he’s trying to protect his people. Achilles doesn’t refuse to fight because he doesn’t get to keep his prize, he’s actually struggling with coming to terms with his humanity and the fact that he doesn’t really have any power over his life. Both of these are very human concepts that the audience can relate to in some way. And I think that when we try to assign these labels through media such as books and tv shows where Greece is glamorized, we limit ourselves. A big example of this is how a lot of TSOA fans will automatically hate Hector and only at the Trojan War from the Greek perspective. By assigning this label of “evil” to Hector and the Trojan’s, they are missing out on the statements that are being made about war in the first place. 

[lunaescribe]

"Achilles Doubts his Choice" 

AKA my attempt at historically accurate Patrochilles! 

I know a lot of people tend to grip to the Illiad mentioning Achilles’ “Golden” hair, and it leads to him being...very much looking like a Norse European instead of a, as described and depicted in Ancient Art, brown skinned one. Additionally, the Greeks used color in different ways than we do now, that apparently speaking in similes about the radiance of colors more than a direct connotation (Madeline Miller shared a great article about it on her twitter and about race in Ancient Greece) - which is why different translations vary Achilles’ hair from blonde to red-they’re talking about the luminance of his hair being a demigod, as opposed to being directly blonde. Hence why I choose to give him light brown hair that was very reflective and luminescent. 

Additionally as a historian I feel the obligation to keep reminding people Ancient Greece was full of darker skinned, curly haired, people. We have the literal frescos (Shown above) to prove it. I think a lot of times for artists their bias of “beauty” also come into play when depicting Patroclus and Achilles. I don’t blame them completely because like I said above, the idea of “blonde” Achilles in the Illiad is how he’s come to been popularized. However I do tend to find it  unfortunate this tends to lead to a lot of artwork where Achilles, the demigod ethereally beautiful one, is depicted as “White and Blonde”, and Patroclus who by default would be more average is given darker skin. Not a great connotation, even if it is subconscious or in all good faith following what the text seems to imply. I appreciate in “The Song of Achilles” Miller describes both of them as brown skinned multiple times-so it does get perplexing when people are doing *specifically* TSOA fanart, Achilles still gets bleached. 

Can go into detail about other historical details if asked!

Alternative beardless Achilles (and uncensored version)  on my twitter. Beard variation bc it's true Achilles is beardless in a lot of pottery-BUT this didn't start until the 300BCEs, when Greek standards of queer relationships shifted. Before he had a beard in most art. Also Greeks were nude a lot so clothed/nude version.

[pomegranates-and-blood]

Tell me about the book you’re reading.

Soooo, I'm currently reading Circe by Madeline Miller, and let me tell you, it's such a ride. I'm still hurt by the Song of Achilles, so I picked up this book to kind of...I dunno. Cheer me up? But NOPE. Why did I even think that? Circe is such a tragic character too. But it's good! I recommend it if you haven't read it!

I almost did the same thing as you! When I was done with TSOA I almost jumped into Miller’s Circe but I stopped myself cause I was afraid what was left of my heart was gonna just turn to dust. I was right it seems!

I might start it, thank you so much for the recommendation (even if it’s ‘this is the angstiest most tragic thing ever, you should read it’ lmao), I’ve been looking for a good book so I might get it! If When my heart is torn to pieces I’m blaming you tho!

Thank you so much girl! ❤️❤️

Come tell me stuff!

[heich0e]

Dear Liv,

I remember you saying once that The Song of Achilles is one of your favorite books & oh my god I just finished it today & I have been bawling my eyes out for the past hour or so. I mean I could blame the wine for my emotional reaction but the last couple chapters broke my heart. I knew the story beforehand but I was still not prepared :(. Also, if you don’t mind me asking, what did you like the most about the book?

Hope you have a great weekend & get at least a bit of rest despite your busy schedule ✨!

Your truly,

an emotional-wreck of a follower 🖤

BABE BABE BABE TSOA LITERALLY CHANGED ME

madeline miller's prose is unmatched. her ability to weave words into something that consumes you--CAPTIVATES you--in the most completely devastating way. her writing makes me feel like i'm burning from the inside out.

i hope you have a lovely weekend sweet angel, and that you are well!! sending love

[atthemercyofnonebutmyself]

A reflection

Hello again, guys, not a poem though I promise I will start writing and posting poetry again soon

This is going to be a reflection on recent events. Something that has resonated with me, some things I’ve learned essentially.

I’ve come to the realization that the relationship I was in simply isn’t going to work out, it’s not his fault and yet I can’t go blaming myself either, as that would also be dishonest. If there is one thing I learned recently from TSOA that has now translated into my own life, it’s that we can only do so much to delay the inevitable, but we can never stop it fully.

For example:

One can eat healthy, exercise, drink plenty of water and stay away from drugs and alcohol to perhaps lengthen their life, but they can never fully stop death.

I’ve come to the realization that, though our relationship didn’t last exceptionally long, it simply isn’t meant to be, whether it be the wrong person entirely or the right person at the wrong time, it simply isn’t meant to be.

Instead of trying to spare him hurt now, I’m going to do what’s right for the both of us, and spare him and myself more hurt later. I need to do what makes me happy, that is the most importsnt thing of all. Figure that out, and everything else will fall into place.

So I’m going to focus on that. I’m going to focus on me, and being happy with me, doing things I love, being with friends, this is my time.

[moviegroovies]

oof. in the last few days, i’ve watched five (5) new movies, at least three of which i have opinions on i’d like to share. for convenience’s sake, i’m going to start with the most recent, and work back from there. 

so: troy (2004) 

as someone who was coerced into studying the iliad at a liberal arts college, this movie enraged me. as someone who likes to enjoy himself while watching movies, this movie horrified me. all around, i’m going to rate it a solid 3/10, and that might be generous, but there WERE a few things i liked, which i’m going to talk about, because what else do i do here, anyway.

i’m not even going to get into all the ways this was an unfaithful adaptation of the source material, because there just is not the fucking time, and i’m sure other people before me have done it, so let’s just say that the moment they cast brad pitt as achilles, all hope was lost. i will comment that they of course no-homo’d achilles and patroclus, but had i gone in expecting to see any representation in this movie, i would have been an even bigger masochist than i am. that does not mean i wasn’t still a little disappointed, though.

troy takes into account much more than the actual span of the iliad, beginning (long) before the start of the epic and ending after it finished. in this way, we see the full span of the story, which i suppose is a good thing, although it did stretch this painfully milquetoast adaptation into an agonizing three hours. we see everything from agamemnon’s quest to unite all the kingdoms of greece together underneath his rule to the sacking of troy, meaning we also get to see paris seducing helen, achilles’ death, and the sacking of troy with the trojan horse, all of which the iliad does not include. being that the actual content of the iliad isn’t quite so battle-focused as the general public might think, these things are all probably good for the telling of an actual story. i can forgive most of the changes to the story that we did see, because i think that, given that you don’t know the source material, it makes for a cohesive and satisfying narrative, all in all. menelaus’s character being changed to make helen’s choice to leave with paris more sympathetic made the choice to have hector kill him a cathartic one. even better was briseis getting to take her revenge on agamemnon for his treatment toward her and, more generally, the fact that he was the one who brought war and soldiers to her front door. sure, that totally ruins the play orestes, but that was never going to be the sequel we were waiting for, anyway. 

side note, i think of the actors, agamemnon (played by brain cox) was the best. he just had a really good love-to-hate-him thing going, and played up his part pretty excellently. orlando bloom also felt like a good choice for paris (i would for sure leave menelaus for him, for instance), and vincent regan as eudoros was sort of a dark horse in the cast for me; i’d never heard of him before, and his character was small, but there was something striking about him. maybe it was just his eyes. 

in the movie, the siege of troy went from spanning ten years to like... maybe a couple of weeks? that was the one change from the source material that i really couldn’t abide, but What Ever I Guess. if they had just begun in the 9th year of the siege, it might have made the casting of then 40 year old brad pitt as achilles make a little more sense. as it stands.... whatever. sure. do whatever the fuck you want. i can’t stop you. 

generally, i like brad pitt in things (one of the other movies of the five that i watched, for instance, was se7en, although i don’t really have any particular comments on that other than, it was good, i liked it, i probably won’t choose to watch it again just on a whim), but i really could not get behind this particular performance. it had some of the same problems as him at the start of interview with the vampire; i think he kind of warmed to the role with that one, but the scene with him as a dissociating human felt... off, in terms of acting, but maybe that’s just me. either way, i’m not sure he ever really warmed to being achilles. 

and that sucked, because achilles could have been such a good character. 

obviously my personal bias is being taken into account here (yes, i read TSoA, yes i am letting it influence my perception of the dude), but if troy’s achilles had been prepared to put the raw emotion latent in the iliad’s achilles into the role, i think the character would have hit harder than he did. i personally didn’t love the expanded romance with briseis that they shoved in, but there was potential to see some tenderness there, and that could have been played up more, especially since she acted as the catalyst, here, for achilles to consider accepting the happy but unremarkable life he could have lived, instead of dying for glory in troy. failing that, i think patroclus’ role should have been more pronounced, and i’m not even saying that as a proponent of the patroclus/achilles relationship; even if they kept the two of them as cousins as they did in this setting, i think we needed to see a lot more interactions than the ones we did (although there was a fair amount, and given how long the movie turned out, i understand why it wasn’t fleshed out better) to really justify how hard achilles took the death of patroclus. there WERE some times that achilles got to exhibit emotions other than like emotionally stunted badass soldier either brooding or being pissed off--and that’s one of the highlights of the film, i’ll get back to that in a second--but the emotional climax between achilles and hector didn’t live up to my expectations. for one thing, in that scene in the poem, achilles didn’t just fight hector in retribution for the death of patroclus. he fought EVERYONE, up to and including hector, and more than that, a fucking RIVER DEITY. it was wild, unabashed grief that made him do horrible things. i would have personally loved to see an unhinged rampage, and instead, it got boiled down to one single fight between achilles and hector that lasted, i think, far longer than it should have. achilles was more powerful than hector, no matter how good hector was. i think it might have been more to my taste, at least, if we were shown that achilles had the strength to kill hector in a second, hardly taking him on to fight, and simply hadn’t before this because he was never given a reason to. 

all i’m saying is, movies are more interesting when characters are allowed to fully break, fully snap, just go buck fucking wild. but that’s just my onion.

i said i was going to come back to the “more emotions than emotional constipation” thing, and let’s do that now. one thing i DID like about the choices made in this film was that achilles was allowed to cry on screen, and he did, several times. i don’t know how to express how refreshing it was to see the archetypal badass soldier, the best of the greeks, break down into tears, especially when you consider how few movies really show men crying, much less movies of this particular genre. it’s kind of one of those “don’t give them props for scraping the bottom of the barrel” things, but i liked it, and since there were so few things i really did like about this movie, i’m going to give them props there. not just that, either--i also liked the way that paris could not face his death in his fight with menelaus, and crawled, terrified, back to his older brother. i liked that, while he degraded himself for the act later, the narrative and other characters never treated this like the wrong decision. sometimes, it’s impossible or incorrect to be noble at the price of yourself, especially in something like the fight over the hand of a woman who made her decision on where to go. paris did not win the fight, but he had a brother who loved him, and menelaus couldn’t understand that. and he died.

interestingly enough, paris also loses that fight in the epic, but rather than going to hector for protection, he’s whisked away by aphrodite before he can be killed. this was changed, naturally, because at no point in troy do the gods, who play by all accounts very important parts in the trojan war as told by the iliad, actually appear in the movie. they’re discussed throughout, and achilles’ mother, a goddess in the epic, appears to speak to him before he leaves for war, but it’s never affirmed whether or not she is divine, whether apollo is truly taking revenge for achilles’ desecration of his temple, whether godhood can be trusted or not. this is a theme that’s discussed and subverted many times, bringing in a type of ancient agnosticism to both the characters of achilles and hector, but ultimately it’s left unsolved. since they went the route of not being including the gods as characters, i’m happy with that conclusion. one of the more powerful bits of screentime between achilles and briseis was when he confided that he believed the gods were jealous of humans for their mortality, so ultimately, it was fitting that this story was told about the humans and the heroes, a celebration and examination of humanity, rather than throwing in divine intervention and cheapening the plot. 

there was a theme of love in the movie which i liked pretty well, especially for the fact that it wasn’t focused entirely on romantic love. the war began because helen ran back with paris, but not really: agamemnon was itching for a war anyway, and was happy to use his brother’s missing wife as a reason to begin the fight with troy he had been craving. menelaus clearly had no problem being cruel and unfaithful to helen, so her leaving him is not framed as a slutty and frivolous choice as it has been in other media. she goes off with someone willing to give away everything (up to and including his family and his palace) for her, and it’s honestly hard to blame her for that. plus, the war could have also been averted by hector turning around the ship and returning helen to her husband, which he very nearly does, except that if he did, he knows paris will try to fight menelaus for her and die, and he cannot bear the death of his brother. therefore, the war begins with two sets of brothers and two sets of lovers: helen chooses paris because he genuinely loves her, hector allows it because he loves his brother, and agamemnon profits off his brother’s loss because he loves nothing more than power, and the loss is a chance for that. achilles nearly costs agamemnon the war because he’s ready to leave and live his full life thanks to the love of briseis, until his love of patroclus and his grief at his death take that option away. priam gets a speech toward the beginning about there being worse reasons to fight a war than for love. i think this is honestly kind of simplistic and missing the point of what war is in general, but it was a nice scene to play into the theme.

outside of that, other things i enjoyed were odysseus’s narration book-ending the action, because he’s my favorite character of homer’s, if not in troy (i honestly don’t like sean penn in the role, but that’s my own personal cross to bear), the scene around patroclus’ death where eudoros looks on in horror when he thinks it’s achilles and then gives a visible sigh of relief, even as it’s mixed with the horror of patroclus’ death when the helmet is removed and he sees it’s not, the part where agamemnon looks on at patroclus’ funeral and comments how “that boy just won [him] the war,” which was such an asshole thing to say but also honestly what i was thinking, and that one little scene with paris giving the sword of troy to aeneas as a fun little shoutout to the aeneid. i could go into other things i DIDN’T like, but after watching that movie for three fucking hours, i think i’ve put enough time into that as it is. 

coming soon: pointless commentary on the first back to the future and fright night (1985)! get hype!!!