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goldentigerfestival · 3 months

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Since I'd been talking a lot about JP Vesperia (primarily Yuri and Flynn and the heavy changes that surround them, and because I'm highly passionate about them in their original context), I wanted to compile some more jarring if not outright glaring mistakes in the localization (or what were likely intentional changes, because I can't look at some of these and just call them "mistakes"). I'm not going to mention every little change throughout the game, so smaller things I'll mostly be leaving out (namely things that don't really affect characters or context). I primarily just wanted to give some insight on some of the bigger parts.

Some of the changes seem to have been mistakes in translation itself (not just localization, but misunderstanding what was being said in general; such as, there's an instance I mention of that between Patty and Don), so I've got some mentions hanging around for clarity purposes as some scenes didn't make much sense, likely because of this.

Vocal tone with Yuri was the most prominent issue that got me making this, and the context that was changed being right after if not equally next to that (most often also with Yuri but also Flynn).

This is something that has been bothering me for a while and I've been wanting to share this stuff with people interested in seeing the game with its original context. Generally speaking, the plot and story themselves are on point. The majority of the differences surround Yuri and Flynn respectively, so there's going to be a lot of mention of them throughout.

I've also posted video clips of my favorite scenes and the heavy changes, so consider those a supplement to this and vice versa.

Part 2.

Part 3.

Part 4.

(Other) GTF Favorites.

I'd like to preface this by mentioning the chief director and producer of the game itself has also spoken about localization inaccuracy issues, so that's something to keep in mind (it's in Japanese, but you should be able to use the offered post translator).

I'd also like to preface this by mentioning that in the original, Yuri is more playful and relaxed/casual (generally but including with Flynn, which the dub pretty much entirely changed until arc 3), but also gentler and softer. He has a very large variety of tonal behaviors/tonal "moods" that were pretty much nuked from the dub.

Basically, to get the full experience for Yuri, I can only really recommend playing the game in JP audio. Obviously you won't get the actual context because all you'll have is the dub context, but that's also partly why I'm making these posts - to cover the contextual changes while the video clips cover some of the tonal changes (because lbh I don't expect anyone to actually go watch the entire game in JP with subtitles unless you're as insanely dedicated as I am, and I'm largely doing it out of my love for the original Yuri and Flynn and my disdain for how the localization treated them).

As a heads up, there won't be many skits in here because I'm going through a specific YT playthrough for these screenshots. Specific skits won't always come up in the playthrough in question, and I can't find a whole list of skits in JP anywhere online. I don't have all skits unlocked in my own save either yet (you can unlock all skits with Grade which I have yet to do in the DE), so I can't use that to compare all skits right now.

There are plenty of small changes here and there that I won't be including in these posts because there are some sentence changes that aren't impactful but do exist. I just don't want to be here for a year covering the random changes that don't matter much. I'm also not going to include details of a lot of honorifics because I'd be here all day, but there is one one major instance that I mention later on.

For reference if anything wants to actually watch the game in JP with the subs (it goes until just after Hypionia), most of the references come from here. Since in some cases the subber just reused localized text even when the context wasn't the same, I did bring some of those up in these posts too. These were subbed before the DE version came out. I used screenshots with subs where possible to make it easier to follow along.

I have a lot of passion for JP Yuri and I hope I can pass on some of that passion to others. 🙏

Apologies in advance if some of these sound cranky. If I sound cranky about some specific changes, it's probably because I am.

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Since I talked about the whole, Raven being shady and Yuri therefore not being grateful to him incident that the localization for some reason butchered and made Yuri sound like a generally ungrateful or just outright dumb person who doesn't understand gratitude, I'll summarize that one again here:

Yuri has a skit with Estelle originally talking about how he can't find himself being grateful to someone like Raven for showing him how to sneak out of the castle. Basically, Raven is shady and he's not sure he should be grateful to someone like that, and is confused as to why Estelle would be so grateful when she doesn't even know him (because in his mind, he isn't sure he wants to trust a guy with those vibes). The dub just kinda... makes him sound like an ungrateful jerk and not so much because he's not sure he wants to trust Raven. It doesn't really sound like it's an issue of his with Raven specifically but more that he just generally doesn't feel grateful for the aid (and that in general one shouldn't feel grateful for aid like this), which gives off a really wrong impression of him that doesn't hold up throughout the game. Yuri wasn't wholly ungrateful for the gesture itself, but because of who it came from (and I imagine a weird peppy guy in jail is good cause to be skeptical).

We start off we a classic "Yuri, you idiot!" that was changed to "come on already!".

Yuri's response to Estelle mentioning he'd been in the knights doesn't actually give a time frame for how long he'd been there (the dub made up three months, but there was never originally even a time frame given).

Here when Yuri asks Estelle why she can't just leave, her response indicates she actually does know why. The dub made it more ambiguous, which could be easily misinterpreted as she really doesn't know, so I'm dropping this one here.

For some reason the localization seemed to have Estelle responding to Karol directly about the ace always performing their attack last ("I don't think so"). What she was referring to was the tiny monster that walked by, asking for confirmation that that monster was not the eggbear they were looking for (I wasn't gonna fight with the video to get a better screenshot without the annoying YT red bar in the way so the monster is in the corner mid-movement lol). Not sure if that was a genuine mistake, but it was an odd one.

(Also, side note and not putting an image here because it's more general, but Yuri refers to Karol as "Karol-sensei" which was translated in the localization to "Captain Karol". Basically, Yuri calls him "sensei" because that's a teacher/professor, and he's making a play on Karol's knowledge and being their "teacher" about monsters/maps/etc.)

I'd say this is more along the lines of overexaggerating and not overreacting, but this line was literally changed to "haha" in the dub. The whole point wasn't that Yuri just brushed her comment off or found it funny. At this point he still literally thinks she's exaggerating about her lack of knowledge out in the world, her excitement, etc.

Not the only instance you'll find of the dub just changing entire sentences to something meaningless as if they ??? didn't know what it meant (they actually changed Patty saying an entire sentence to "aye"). In some cases they added entire sentences that weren't even there...

Even though I can kind of see where they went with the dub here, the point was supposed to be that Flynn actively thought he would be happy for Yuri to go outside the barrier and see the world.

The dub changed this to Flynn saying that he, in the now, is happy that Yuri is outside the barrier, but then says he got a little less happy when he saw the wanted poster, indicating he was previously happy but got less happy, yet says in that moment that he is happy.

It's a weird case of (past/present) tense usage for the most part, but they also removed the fact that Flynn is literally saying "I thought I would be happy" (thus expressing he'd been wanting Yuri to see the world outside the barrier and would've been happy to find out he did). The reason he's not finding himself happy is because of the wanted poster and the crimes listed on it, following up that his honest happiness for Yuri (ultimately because of the poster) was a lie.

This also means they removed Flynn expressing the honesty of his happiness for a positive concept for Yuri, which, given all the changes toward Flynn in the dub, already now takes away from the fact that he'd been actively hoping for good things for someone and we're left with this more sarcastic take on him being "happy".

Obviously his happiness wasn't really a lie because most of the crimes were falsified (primarily the ones that would make him actually mad, because Flynn has had to have been aware this whole time that Yuri has committed small time crimes for the past few years now), but at the time, the focus on this conversation is that Flynn thought he'd be happy at a time that Yuri left the barrier; meaning he'd been hoping for it prior to it happening.

I'm also mentioning it because it's the very first in a whole line of changes the dub made to their relationship (and it's their first in game interaction ffs) and to Flynn himself as he's perceived as a character. The original is much more expressive of how important they are to each other in a lot of various ways.

Inserting the JP audio version of the following scene with Flynn here.

And... the following one from there.

This was changed to "damn, we if lose our balance...". I know they did it because Yuri had just fallen over, but I'm including this one because the context isn't... really the same thing?

This dub change is a bit odd to me. They had him saying something along the lines of "she is a princess after all" in the dub, regarding the council backing her.

The original context is more like, the council is backing her and he's hearing it directly from Ioder and he probably doubts Ioder would lie like that or about that, cementing that yes, she truly is, like he suspected, a princess, but it's almost still a bit odd to know. It's sort of like, he knew/had suspicions but hearing it directly from Ioder just confirms it for certain.

The dub just made it sound like well yeah, it's obvious they'd want to back her, she's a princess... but Ioder is a prince, so that doesn't explain why they're not backing him. She is a princess after all, so of course they'd back her... but what's stopping them from backing the prince?

Another weird one for me. In the dub Yuri says that "even the Commandant was a little in over his head", when he actually... really wasn't? All he did was step in. Things got bad enough that he had to, but he wasn't in over his head. Not sure how or why the dub ended up with that.

An example of the dub having a habit of just adding in random lines that didn't actually exist (and in this case the one added didn't even contextually make sense. This was no thank you from him, this was literally him making Yuri do something for him because he was going to ask Flynn for a favor and ended up with Yuri in the cell instead).

Another super weird one in the dub. They had Yuri saying Flynn was "too" late, implying he hadn't made it in time, but he did. He made it just before the battle started, but the original context only says he's late, not too late (which makes sense given that they were ready to fight but hadn't started yet).

This was changed to Yuri just mentioning there was one way they could get out of there without actually saying what it was, and Judith saying if he thinks it might work what's the harm in trying it out. Not sure why they changed Yuri literally telling her his plan, so... again, a super weird change that I don't get why they didn't just keep the context the way it was.

Third image was changed to "someone get me away from this psycho", which... I also don't get why they put that there unless they just wanted so much flavor text that they wanted to change the whole "they're in a fight and he's telling her not to come over here because he's pissed at her because they're fighting" part of the fake fight they had going on.

Not one I have a huge problem with, but definitely good examples of them going out of their way to change just... perfectly normal stuff that literally has no reason to be changed? Some of it is flavor text and some of it feels over the top for me. Stuff that makes me like... why would you change that when there was no reason to? Could be more of a personal pet peeve of mine, but I just don't like unnecessary changes when there was nothing wrong or odd about the original text and doesn't at all come off odd in English. Unfortunately Vesperia got littered with those.

I didn't feel like getting a whole video for this, but basically Judith gives a little laugh instead of just the more upset/distressed(?) sound she made in the dub. Feels more fitting imo to keep up the "lie" Yuri started for her. The dub makes it seem more like she feels guilty, versus here she's giving a little forced giggle to go along with it. Again, a change I'm not sure why they put in.

Ngl I get completely different vibes from these. The JP comes across more as concern, rather than... treating them like they're some mob on the loose...?

Once again, this gives off negative vibes toward Flynn as a character imo.

Here Judith gives more of a reason for coming with them, which they changed in the dub to "with the circumstances being what they are, this is just how things turned out". Reasonably, she didn't have to stick around after they ran from Dahngrest, but here she gives a quick "reason".

The dub changed this to "I'll bet he is". They were just told he's the current magistrate in Heliord, and all Yuri says here expresses he's letting it sink in and realizing exactly why all this is happening here. It's not a huge story beat or anything that gets changed, but it's an example of changing things that don't need to be changed as if trying to play things up in a way that... doesn't feel necessary to me? In this case the situation is kind of dawning on Yuri as he realizes how bad this situation could be/why it's like it is, but in the dub it comes across as more just unimpressed and "of course he'd do that".

An unfortunate, classic moment of them changing how much Yuri believes in and trusts Flynn. They changed this to "gotta run, Flynn!" and he just... leaves. I'm sorry but in what universe does "leave the rest to you" equal "gotta run"???

This one is one of those cases where the localization text was super awkward and wonky, and worse, they actually voiced it that way (like "we have guild's job to deal with". Yes, they actually voiced it that way too on top of everything else grammatically wonky with the entire conversation that they didn't bother fixing when the DE came out).

Also here, they changed what Yuri says about Cumore and Flynn. "I don't know how I could explain this to Flynn" doesn't, at least to me, carry the same weight as Yuri actually feeling ashamed (in the dub he says "what a shame", but does not express shame, versus him saying "how pathetic" and expressing shame in feeling pathetic) and saying he can't even face Flynn because Cumore got away. The thing is, Yuri does tend to posture, so when he fails at something, it hits him pretty hard.

And let's be honest, this just hits way harder than "he will get what he deserves".

Interestingly, Yuri could also fall into the category of viewing himself as sinful later on, which I talk about in my favorites post and the usage of "crime" and "sin" within the JP context.

Not particularly important, but just another (more mild) case and example of how the dub just randomly changed tone/mood/wording for no reason.

Another case of Yuri being more aggressive in the dub than he actually was. Here, all he says is just a plain statement. In the dub, he has an attitude about it and says it in a tone that's more insulting that Ioder didn't know about Heracles.

This isn't the only case of dub Yuri acting aggressively toward Ioder when he wasn't supposed to be and we'll get to that, but Ioder is another similar case of the dub making Yuri unnecessarily vocally rude (despite that Ioder is very polite toward Yuri).

(I left out the subtitles because all they did was copy the dub's localization, which kinda defeats the point of this post LOL. This will be the case going forward for any same circumstances.)

This one's a more interesting tidbit to me and less of a harmful change (i.e. I find that a lot of if not most changes relative to Flynn do more harm than good when compared with the original context). Basically it's saying "sweet mask and sharp eyes", implying Flynn's sweet face is a mask and saying it contrasts with his sharp eyes. I could get into a whole rant about why I love that in relation to some side material, but even in the game itself, there's the knight Flynn with his sweet, polite side and his real side that only shows when he's around Yuri (basically, who Flynn has to be for his job and who he actually is as a person, which he only gets to be around someone who knows the real him).

I'd guess this got changed in the dub because they weren't sure how to word it, though there's no mention of "heartthrob" here at all and instead actually says "sweet mask" as if, again, to say his sweetness is just a mask. It's actually a very interestingly accurate representation of his character - how he tends to not be himself when he's being "knight Flynn", and how that sweet face is contrasted by the look in his eyes (which they say, you know, eyes are the windows to the soul, so this would imply the sweet face is the mask and the eyes are the real Flynn. And of course, this Flynn is implied to show himself in his sparring with Yuri in Aurnion, where sword fighting is the best way to express himself. This isn't to say Flynn being a nice person in and of itself is a lie, but that his overly polite, respectful, kind knight side is a sweet mask contrasted to the man who loves to fight and has a sharp look in his eyes)

For now, we'll be back at Mantaic in the next post (due to image per post limit).

#Tales of Vesperia #GTF JP Vesperia Things #GTF Vesperia Localization Woes #really like... a lot of the time? the other characters weren't changed all that much #it's primarily Yuri who got this weird shift where they just... flattened his personality?#but some of the biggest offenders ended up being some of the most important scenes in the game which is what bothers me #and sometimes the localization is pretty much just... on point with the plot dialogue and other characters #yet for some reason they just... changed a lot of tone for Yuri?#it's just like... Yuri will have personality in his tone and they instead make dub Yuri speak it in a flat way in those moments #this did happen with the original dubbing quite a bit but it's also just SUPER noticeable with the new lines #my suggestion would be to at least play the game w/ JP dialogue and see how you feel coming out of it if you're a fan of Yuri and/or Flynn #and if you like it enough then I'd suggest watching the playthrough in JP that these screenshots came from if you're RLY dedicated lol #it's not JUST Yuri it's just /dominantly/ Yuri. other odd lines just didn't... go as hard?#like Raven and Karol especially go pretty hard on their lines in JP and the Schwann stuff with Karol was OOF #or if you'd rather just skip to watching it in JP I mean be my guest lol I just know some ppl might rather PLAY it #I just feel like... like... even tho not everything in the dub is horrendous... if you're a YURI fan?#it's hard to go back to the dub (impossible for me ngl) when you have this actual silly little guy #who is a lot more emotional and wholesome and Yuri isn't acting like he has a stick up his dubbed ass in some scenes #I still prefer the 360 version plot-wise for the most part and it's a mixed bag there a bit but #I can't get JP audio on the 360 so. it's the struggle ig.#in my case though it's this feeling of like... them wanting to create an image onto Yuri that wasn't supposed to be there?#obviously I don't know what went on in the loc room but I do know I walked out looking at dub Yuri like #him and the original Yuri aren't even the same. I get so frustrated with dub Yuri's unnecessary ATTITUDE sometimes #which wasn't ever a problem for me period in JP. he's emotional and sincere WAY more often #also lbh I cannot reasonably picture dub Yuri all dressed up and pretty the way he is in official artwork LOL #and that's the thing. I see them so differently it's like they're different people #I also just feel like the dub was like. he doesn't fit OUR vision for him. what WE want him to be like #and again I don't know what went on in that loc room but I DO know that's how I came out feeling from this game #anyway this is in hope more ppl will come to love JP Yuri's personality and stuff #but yeah more next time on ''why did you do this to my sweet baby boy''

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trashlie · 1 year

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ILY FP 220

CW for abuse, manipulation, gaslighting, etc. Sorry for the minor spoiler, but we’re digging into the way Yui has manipulated and abused Kousuke since he was young and that might be triggering to some readers.

Whoo BOY! Idk about you guys but I loved this episode (I keep saying this every week lmao). Again, there’s so much confirmation of things I’ve been saying/believing, and I find it really funny that this arrived on the cusp of a related discussion I’ve been having lol. This time, I’m also going to link to some interesting posts/threads from the 220 discussion post on the reddit, because they are presented really well, and while I’ll talk about them in this post, I want to highlight the comments that have furthered my thoughts and commentary! The reddit discussion posts are really what helps me put my thoughts together!

I am a big fan of this comment and the subsequent replies between them and cheeselounge; good explanation of exactly how Yui’s manipulation/gas lighting/abuse works and why it maintains a compelling hold on Kousuke, as well as some good food for thought about black and white vs shades of grey, the ableism that runs rampant when people on a whole talk about Kousuke, and how harmful it is to view characters as 100% innocent or guilty. Also really fantastic points on the parallels of how Shinae, Nol, and Kousuke are shown waking in the hospital. Just an all around top tier comment!

This is my own comment lol but what is important is not the comment itself but the discussion in the replies. I’m not a medical person so everyone’s input on what it means for Yui to shut down Hansuke’s tests is invaluable to me lol. Someone also brought up blood type - and while I don’t think that’s something Hansuke would be testing, it does bring up interesting thoughts re: Kousuke’s parentage.

So let’s get into it!

I know it’s tacky to be an “I told you so!” person but this episode, besides making me feel incredibly unsettled and angry, absolutely made me feel I TOLD YOU SO! Yui is SO skilled at manipulation it’s like second nature to her. Every now and then I still see people defending Yui as loving Kousuke so much that the way she treats him can’t possibly be manipulation, and that you can’t prove it’s manipulation - and like. THAT’S THE THING LOL Textbook abuse is often met with people who don’t believe it because they’ve never seen it, because you’re being so dramatic, because it’s not big deal. That’s how abuse WORKS. The abuser is seen as someone who couldn’t possibly be abusing you, because they do so many nice things or they seem so lovely and they just don’t seem like an abuser~. That’s why it works!!!! Because they have created a reasonable cause of doubt. Because they make YOU look like the liar, like you’re dramatic, like you’re just making a big deal out of things that aren’t.

Also, people can say they love you and still abuse you, still hurt you, still use you for their own gain. And Yui does just that.

It’s been a source of great ire to me that so much of what Yui has done has been swept under an umbrella of “she just loves him so much of course she wants the best for him”. But it’s not about him, and we can see that now! Yui doesn’t respond to Kousuke with love or affection. She has NO CONCERN about what happened to him. In fact, even as Hansuke tries to argue in favor of running tests on Kousuke, Yui tries it on him. “He’s dramatic, you know that. I know him well, and I know he’s fine. You are making a big deal out of nothing. We don’t want to make him think something is wrong with him do we?” Hansuke is the only one showing concern for Kousuke. It’s not just about him hitting his head - it’s about the unresponsive state in which he found Kousuke. It’s that HE knows Kousuke and HE knows something happened, something set him off, and that he responded to it in a worrying way!

Yui SHOULD be concerned about Kousuke. She should want to understand, she should worry that something is going on with him. Instead, she just tries to pretend it’s nothing, to sweep it under the rug, to hide it not just from everyone else but from HIMSELF. “We don’t want him to think something’s wrong with him, do we?”

But it’s not just that, it’s the way she operates! For so long I’ve been trying to say that while Rand is very much responsible for his choices, I believe Yui absolutely has affected his relationship with Kousuke and encouraged/fostered the distance between them. If Kousuke ever got close to Rand, maybe he would have laid off, calmed down, felt that he’d reached his goal and now he didn’t have to run so hard. But as long as that goal is unmet, as long as Rand is distant from him, Kousuke would have to keep pushing until he reaches the top, just like she wants.

It’s the way she took Rand’s real gift and threw it out and replaced it with some random cardigan that looks like it’s not up to Kousuke’s standards. “How sweet of him” so sweet that he doesn’t know what his son likes, right? So sweet that he just got you whatever and you’re supposed to like it. She’s further fostering that divide. Not only has Kousuke not reached Rand, but he looks like he doesn’t know anything about him, like he doesn’t even care. And that’s further supported by the reality of the night - Kousuke knows Rand is with Nol and while on some level he understands why (even he was concerned about Nol being hurt) eventually he might internalize it as “Father chose Nol over me.”

How many times has Yui intervened? Swapped out gifts? Relayed the wrong information, just FORGOT to relay the right information. How convenient, that Rand was never around for Kousuke’s birthday because he had meetings elsewhere. How convenient, that Rand never knew when Kousuke’s recitals or EVEN GRADUATION were. I want to reiterate I think Rand deserves critique. He has made his choices, he could have reached out to Kousuke, could have inquired about when his events are. But also as we’ve extensively discussed, Yui absolutely has and continues to weaponize what Rand loves and cares about against him. She’s weaponized it against Kousuke in how she commodified the concept of love and Rand’s love. She’s done it to Nol. At some point, people give up. There’s only so much misery they can endure. It’s very likely that Rand made efforts, in the beginning. We’ve seen him talk to Kousuke before about how he doesn’t have to follow in his footsteps, that he’s allowed to be whatever he wants. We’ve seen him try to instill little life lessons in Kousuke, only for Yui to swoop in and contradict him. At some point a person is going to burn out, grow tired. It’s unfair to Kousuke, because as his father, Rand still has a duty to him. But he’s also a human and we can only take so much.

Rand and Yui exist in a toxic relationship, and Rand has spent so much of that time in a state of misery. We’ve seen it in Nol, how at some point he thought maybe he should give up, maybe there’s no point in fighting, maybe he just needs to let it go. We’ve seen it in Shinhan, who was overwhelmed by stress and his job and schooling and didn’t have the time and energy to be a present father and at some point turned to alcohol for comfort even at the expense of their funds.

People can only endure so much. That’s the tragedy of Rand and Kousuke - that Rand was eventually worn down to such an extent that he didn’t have it in him to keep trying, that he was sapped of everything, that it was used against him time and time again, and that in the end it hurts Kousuke. That there were two children involved and impacted by this and both have come to meet danger and harm.

I have so many thoughts about Rand, and Rand and Yui, and I’ll have to save them for another post. I don’t want to absolve Rand of his crimes against his children, but I also think it’s important to consider the circumstances, because at the end of the day that’s why this is so tragic. It’s so real. Yui is not the first parent to ever pit her child against her spouse, she isn’t the first person to manipulate others in her life. It doesn’t absolve the other parent, but we have to acknowledge the circumstances, because I don’t believe this is the father Rand wanted to be. I think he wanted to have a relationship with his son, but that Yui made it a difficult task, and after some time, he gave up on it.

Anyway that’s a whole sidebar lmao the point I REALLY wanted to make was: seeing Yui pull this, swap out the gift, replace it with something that is unsuited for Kousuke just further fosters that distance between Rand and Yui. And because Yui is the one who is here when Kousuke wakes up, it further perpetuates the belief that Kousuke is not good enough for Rand to care about him - especially given the circumstances in which Rand found Kousuke.

Do we ever get to know what’s going on in Rand’s head? What did he think, when he found his sons out there in the snow? What did he think, when it looked like Kousuke was running away from Nol left bloodied and bleeding out in the snow? What did he think about this scene, after the phone call he had earlier that night with Kousuke and what he overhead. We still don’t know what Kousuke said the night he was drunk and left his father a voicemail, but we can deduce that it probably had to do with this - with his relationship with Nol and the hate and the jealousy and the fear and the desperate want to be loved, to be good enough?

The blood is on his hands both metaphorically and physically.

Something I want to stress is how grey I find this. Kousuke acted on Nol’s goading. If he hadn’t pushed Kousuke’s buttons, Kousuke would not have done it. Punching him as he was leaving the room was a fight or flight response - I don’t think it was his intention to knock him off the balcony - but I also think in that moment he didn’t feel guilt. Likewise, when Nol left the party, Kousuke chased after him, caught up in his fears and jealousy, the paranoia that stems from it. In so many ways, Kousuke does believe Nol is better than him. Nol’s ability to walk away and not fight back not just at the party, but even after he chased him, infuriated him, because he was goaded into chasing and attacking and yet Nol didn’t even choose to defend himself. Did he intentionally slam Nol like that knowing the glass shards would dig in and tear him up? Did he even register the glass?

What really strikes me is that when Kousuke realizes Nol is injured - badly - it doesn’t come across to me like he’s afraid of getting in trouble for it. He seems genuinely concerned that something has happened to Nol, that he’s bleeding. He wanted Nol to fight back, but I don’t think he wanted to HURT him like that? His reaction is so different from back at the party, where paranoia clouded logic and that flashback returned to him. I think yes, Kousuke wanted to hurt Nol, but I don’t think he wanted it to be like this?

Idk they’re complicated and it’s why I enjoy getting to see these kinds of scenes.

But again, this is a tangent I didn’t mean to go on, but I think it’s important to state so that you guys understand how and why I interpret the scenes as I do. There is no one who is 100% guilty or innocent.

I definitely think we are meant to dig in to Yui’s actions and understand the manipulation and gaslighting that has gone on for the entirety of Kousuke’s life. That it isn’t solely about Nol, that even before him, she was doing this, that Kousuke as her son has always been a means to her self-serving goals and ambitions, that he was never a child to her but this extension of herself, this opportunity to go after what she wants, a way to cut Rand out of the picture so that everything falls back into the hands of her family. Though Kousuke she is able to orchestrate everything she wants and needs because he is solely at her mercy.

Look at how deftly she discredits Hansuke while ensuring she is seen as the one who has the most concern for him. Look at how she makes it look as though Hansuke was trying something shady, to run tests on him without his consent, how can he overstep those boundaries - as if she doesn’t do that very thing at every opportunity. That’s how it works! You isolate your victim by making them believe everyone is out to harm them, that no one is trustworthy - no one except yourself, of course. It’s how she remains that safe shelter to him. Even though she does overstep his boundaries, even though she inserts herself into his business, she’s also the one who brings him “comfort”, the only one who he can trust. And it’s why he is unable to part ways with that manipulated reality he adheres to. It’s why, when other people speak the truth to him, he cannot believe it if it contradicts what he knows and believes, and that’s why no one is able to get through to him.

Kousuke is a textbook victim of manipulation - he can never grow and progress as long as Yui exists.

And something that someone pointed out (in the first link I included above!) is the visual progression of that. While we knew Kousuke would likely regress and everything he confronted and admitted would be out the window if Yui shows up, it’s further illustrated at the beginning of the episode and how it’s juxtaposed against the last scene we saw.

From Nol and Shinae standing together, hands clutched and Nol resting on her shoulder with the sunrise and light, the clocks turn back and grow darker and darker, until Kousuke awakes. His moment of illumination is over, he’s back to the dark. Yui’s arrival represents that darkness, and how it undoes every moment of truth he had prior.

As long as Yui remains in Kousuke’s proximity, he will always be in the dark, unable to reach the light.

In that same comment, they talked about the parallels in how we were shown Nol, Shinae, and Kousuke all waking up in the hospital.

Shinae woke to her father and his love and care. There was never a moment she had to doubt him. I still can’t get over that little snippet of Minhyuk in the hospital before she’d fully woken, how feral he sounded, how upset he was about what happened - that he knew he was one of the only people who actually cared about her and his anger at how she was hurt. There was never a moment that Shinae had to doubt these people. Even though her mom has left and took her sister, too, Shinae has never had to feel entirely alone.

On the flip side, Nol didn’t wake up to relatives, to his parents. He woke up to panic and fear and his fight or flight senses kicked in - until he noticed Shinae asleep at the foot of his bead and realized he wasn’t alone. His friends showed up despite the way he had treated him to celebrate him, to make him feel special, to make him feel better in the ways that they can. Nol has spent a lot of time alone, but he’s not. He has people at his side.

But Kousuke also wakes up alone - no peace, but instead a hard to make out argument outside his door. Isn’t that awful? At least Shinae and Nol wake up to a sense of comfort, but Kousuke wakes up to people arguing about him. When he fully wakes and sits up, there’s no one in the room. Just him. And then in sweeps Yui, paying off a nurse to trash Rand’s gift, ready to spin a new web to further ensnare Kousuke.

As long as Yui remains that safe place, that comfort to Kousuke, he cannot be free.

That’s the power of isolation, that’s the power of discrediting the people around him, of ensuring he believes only her words, convincing him that only she knows him well enough, that only she can help him, only she will tell him the truth.

“They were all superfluous. Don’t worry, I told him to stop. It’s best to save resources on patients that actually need it, right?”

We know Hansuke is in the right mind, wanting to run tests on Kousuke. He is rightfully concerned that something is going on with Kousuke and hopes tests could be indicative of something. He’s a doctor and thus believes in science and if there’s scientific evidence, maybe THAT could sway Kousuke, maybe THAT could convince him to listen. But not only does Yui put a stop to it, but she manages to discredit his intentions. She conveys to Kousuke exactly what she needs to - of course there’s nothing wrong with you you’re just fine don’t listen to what anyone else says because they don’t know you like I do. They’re all just being so dramatic.

And the next time Hansuke dares bring up to Kousuke that maybe he needs to get checked out, Kousuke will double down against him, will continue to believe Hansuke has a vendetta against him, will add him to his growing list of paranoia. The one person who is actively fighting for Kousuke is a big threat to Yui, so she has to ensure that Kousuke won’t trust him.

But that begs the question then. Is she putting a stop to the tests in effort to discredit Hansuke, or is it more than that? I am not a medical person, so this is not my area of expertise and I can only go off of the input others have put out there. I do personally think that whatever Kousuke is dealing with is not so much a mental illness as much as a response to the various stressors in his life, and while I do think a psych evaluation could at least better pinpoint a way to help Kousuke, that’s not the kind of test that Hansuke could have run while he was out.

But what could be gleaned from simple labwork and urine analysis? If what Kousuke is dealing with is his stress levels and his response to internalized fears and jealousy resulting in paranoia, if it’s his body’s reaction to dealing with a past trauma, if it’s his body shutting down when he can’t deal with something, that’s not something blood is going to show right?

There’s a lot of theories.

The first assumes both the rules of the mukoyoshi theory and that Kousuke is not, in fact, Rand’s child. It would go like this: because Rand was adopted into the Hirahara family by his marriage to Yui, it means he is treated as much as a blood relative as Yui is, and because the family business passes through the males, it means Rand’s progeny are the next in line for heir. This theory can branch off a couple ways.

The first is obviously if it’s found out that Kousuke isn’t Rand’s child - but from simple labwork, would that even be possible? Unless Hansuke is checking Kousuke’s blood type AND knows the blood types of Rand and Yui, how would he be able to uncover the truth? But still, Yui would want to cover that truth at all costs, so maybe stopping Hansuke before he gets further and digs in deeper?

But there’s also the fact that if it was believed Kousuke was not fit to be CEO, that his mental state was worrying or they couldn’t trust him to carry out the necessary duties, he could be stripped of his role - and it would go to the next in line, and as a blood-relative of Rand, that would be Nol. Thus, it would be very important to cover up any indicator that Kousuke cannot handle his role as heir. While we know Kousuke’s stress responses are directly related to unassessed psychological triggers, it would be easy for someone on the outside to look at him and go “He can’t handle stress and he lashes out at people, he isn’t fit for this.” And I don’t think that stress response is new to Kousuke. Though we didn’t see it really take affect until Nol and Kousuke were working closely together and Kousuke’s fears and paranoia were reawakened, we can assume from what little we saw of Kousuke’s recollection of the night Nol was taken away that this was another time he reacted to psychological triggers and shut down.

@poisonheart pointed this out and it really put a lot of things into new light. It would also lend credence to Nol being unstable - ensure that he never stands a chance, that no one will ever think he’s fit for the role.

Anyway, that brings us back to: Yui cannot have anyone, and especially not Kousuke, thinking there’s anything wrong with him. It’s not that she believes he’s perfect and thinks anyone who wants to run tests is insulting. It’s that she knows Kousuke is not perfect and she cannot let anyone find out. It would be so easy for the company to swing to one of her sister’s husbands if it turned out Kousuke and Nol were unfit and she absolutely cannot have that. That’s HER fortune, that’s HER business and she will not let it fall into the hands of another man.

I want to make it clear that when I say something is wrong with Kousuke, I mean that when his triggers stress him out too much, he goes on spirals. I don’t think it’s something like “Kousuke is bipolar” because we can see clearly WHAT affects him, WHAT sets him off, and why it sets him off. I think, in an ideal world where it as easily possible, Kousuke was able to make peace with his feelings about his father, he’d be able to make peace with his feelings about Nol, and he’d be able to eventually reduce the probability of getting swept into these spirals. If Kousuke had no reason to fear Nol, to feel jealous of him, the intense need to best him at every opportunity, if he didn’t see everything Nol does as being an attack against him, as him plotting against him, as him trying to overtake him, he wouldn’t get so worked up.

I also think making peace with Rand and Nol means whatever it is Kousuke is protecting himself from, whatever it is that happened in his falsified memory, would have less power over him. It’s not that Kousuke would act like this regardless - it’s that he is actively responding to things that trigger these reactions.

I think I lost track of where I’m going lmao the point is: Kousuke is a direct result of the manipulation he’s experienced, and every time he experiences a truth that goes against the world Yui has gaslighted him into believing in, he cannot process it and it breaks him down. It’s a normal reaction! He’s not reacting like this because there’s something “wrong” with him, he is responding to high levels of stress and his brain wants to maintain the truth he knows. Certainly he needs therapy, but we all do. They all do.

And this episode illuminates WHY and HOW Kousuke remains trapped in this state, and why any attempt at showing him the truth goes awry. Kousuke doesn’t put his beliefs ahead of other peoples’ solely because he has superiorlistic feelings about himself - it’s because he has to, in order to continue what he knows.

Yui offering him tea is also a chilling moment, because we know the way Nol reacts to tea. He knows - he understands. But on the flipside, Kousuke doesn’t have the same reaction to it. He may even associate tea with comfort. I think this difference is VERY important, because Nol is aware of the witch Yui is, he probably is aware of the ways she has hurt him. Kousuke, though, isn’t. He still seeks comfort from her, and the tea theory, that maybe it’s laced, that maybe it is something his body responds to in order to placate him, is an important one. I don’t think this theory goes as far as some people think - I don’t think he’s being constantly drugged by his personal chef, for instance, nor do I think he ate or drank anything that night that would have triggered how he acted this night because a. Yui was surprised when he showed up to the party at all and b. Again, everything about Kousuke’s reactions are perfectly in line with the things that tip him off. He didn’t get worked up because he was drugged, he got worked up because he was responding to the dissonance between what he believes and what he sees, the stress of what Nol did and how Kousuke fears it will reflect on him, and his desperation to never disappoint Rand.

HOWEVER I AM very much on board with the idea that after very traumatizing moments, perhaps Yui has placated Kousuke with a special tea that would calm him down and interrupt the dissonance, something he would come to associate as calm and safety, and thus further push her goal of ensuring Kousuke only feels safe with her, that she is the only one he can trust and seek refuge in. Everything going wrong and then mommy shows up with nice special tea and suddenly he’s calm and all those questions have been tucked away, there’s a new memory in its place; that’s not how that played out now is it, dear, wasn’t it like this?

Something else about Yui worth noting is that she is VERY unhappy. There’s something so jarring and uncomfortable about the way she reacts when Kousuke tells her he was looking for Nol and Rand, that Nol has been hurt. That eerie smile mask of hers and how it closes in on her, that she came not because Kousuke needed her but she needed something from him - she needed to know Nol’s whereabouts, she needed to know where her scheming husband has gone. And Kousuke has no information for her. She is ANGRY but it’s also an opportunity to further drive that wedge. Rand isn’t here - not only does that mean he’s not here to check on Kousuke but it also means someone lied, whether it was Rand or Jayce, and it doesn’t matter which it was because Kosuuke will internalize it in the worst possible way. Why didn’t they come here, why did they hide their location? As readers we know exactly why - Rand is protecting Nol from Yui. But in doing so, it looks like he’s hiding things from Kousuke and he will not be able to rationalize it any other way.

Even his reaction to the fact that Rand isn’t here shows that - he’s starting to get worked up again, he’s agitated, he doesn’t know where they are and Nol was hurt and Yui is grabbing his injured hand and trying to placate him. There’s something about Kousuke’s “You don’t believe me...?” that REALLY hurts, because it’s all a part of her manipulation. He’s in a vulnerable state, he’s confused and instead of receiving clarity, Yui is muddying the waters. If Yui doesn’t believe him, does that mean he could be wrong? Does it mean that Jayce was wrong?

Again, in the end, he can rely on and trust only Yui.

I really love that we also got to see Meg and Jayce! What an unlikely duo! I have this hope that one day Meg and Kousuke can become unlikely friends - as much as anyone can be friends with Kousuke lol. I think we’ve seen that, like Hansuke, she is someone who at least likes Kousuke for something attributed to who he is, rather than chasing him for the fortune and power. I think that could have added fuel to the fire, but we’ve seen that Meg’s interest in Kousuke was rooted in him being one of the only people in her life to cheer her on, to make her feel seen and like she can do what she sets her mind to, unlike her parents who encouraged her to give up and go for something easy. I don’t want to downplay her harassment and stalking, because it was very much so out of line but I’m glad she seems to be coming around and I think from that, if Kousuke can ever learn to be comfortable around her, we could see a really interesting dynamic of friendship. I think Meg has a lot of potential to have a similar relationship as Kousuke and Shinae have had, where Shinae calls out Kousuke and tries not to let him push her around and make her feel small. Clearly there’s a lot of things Meg and Kousuke both need to work through and it’s not something that would immediately happen, but I think it might be a series of incidents that could build up to them being able to trust each other, maybe?

Meg finding the gift that was thrown out fuels that hope, at least. I know right now she takes it as Kousuke choosing to throw it out, but I wonder if we won’t get to see a scene where Meg mentions the gift he threw out and makes Kousuke go “Excuse me? What? I would never throw out something from Father” and create that little seed of doubt. That’s the biggest issue with Kousuke being caught in Yui’s web - no one can get through to him. But if that seed of doubt is planted, if could lead to Kousuke questioning the things he needs to. Because if she’s thrown out this gift, what else has she thrown out. What else has she prevented? What else has she lied about? Maybe he can reach that conclusion that it wasn’t that he was never good enough for Rand, but that she continued to make that gap wider and wider and to destroy every bridge before either Kousuke or Rand ever had a chance to cross them. Even if it’s not the case and she hasn’t actually interfered as much as we think, it still creates that doubt, because it still means she lied and that she isn’t the only pillar of truth in his life, and there’s still a question of what else he’s lied about.

I love that we get to see Meg hanging around that long, too. I mean, I’m glad she’s getting a wuber and will go home, but I just can’t help but feel like we will get to see a lot more of Meg and Kousuke - after all, just like her unlikely appearance with Yujing, they DO have a lot of mutuals, and Meg has become much more important to the story than anyone could have accounted for. Now that she holds the actual key to possibly unlocking some doubt in Kousuke’s mind, I think we will get to see more of her. Again, I know at the begnning her harassment was treated as a tasteless joke, but I love Meg because of how much we’ve already seen her change and grow, her decision to love herself and stand up for herself. I think in time we might get to see Kousuke develop a sense of respect for her, as he kind of has with Shinae. I like to hope that she might be able to eventually bring some comfort to Kousuke, in the way that maybe she can be someone who brings him truth and honesty. I don’t mean this as a shippy thing, but just in the sense that Kousuke is very much alone. Shinae has people who love and care about her. Nol has people who love and care about him. Kousuke doesn’t have that as much. Having someone who has your back is vital. That’s what makes it so hard for victims to leave - where do they go? who do they turn to? When for so long their abuser has been their only sense of comfort and shelter, when their abuser has made everyone view the victim as hysterical and dramatic, when they are left all on their own, isn’t that scary?

This isn’t a “they can fix him” thing, but rather for Kousuke to grow he needs to escape his mom, and for him to do THAT he needs to understand who she is and what she’s done to him. Hansuke is doing his best, but maybe having someone else on his side would be beneficial. These are complex stories and it’s not enough to just have someone at your side, there’s a lot of psychological recovery for Kousuke to work through - but it’s not as daunting when you aren’t alone.

Idk, I say it every week but I just. I have a LOT of feelings. I’ve really enjoyed the complexity of the pain train that is Kousuke (I took that from @poisonheart lmao) because it’s so well done. He is a man who has been manipulated his entire life, he’s felt neglected by his father, he’s been isolated, everyone who cares about him has been discredited, he’s been trapped in this web and haunted by his jealousies and fears and he’s lashed out every time he feared he was losing his place, every time he worried Nol would best him. Just like how tragic it is that Yui was able to drive that wedge between Rand and Kousuke, it’s tragic that Yui has been able to do this to Kousuke, that as a result of the seeds she’s sown, he’s grown up to be this kind of person, to do despicable things, to break someone so that they never had the chance to grow.

Nothing ever happens in a vacuum, nothing is ever black and white. Kousuke is both a victim and an abuser. Rand is both suffering from Yui’s games and a bad, absent parent. Nol was hurt over and over by Kousuke and still reached out, still tried to help, tried to bond. I think we absolutely have to acknowledge that Kousuke is dealing with something that is very difficult to escape, that is very psychologically damaging. That’s why we can’t look at him and go “I can’t believe a grown adult is acting like that.” There’s always more to the story, and it’s unfortunate that the pain inflicted on these characters has caused them to hurt someone else.

Rand’s misery led to him giving up and hurting his son, which lead to his son living with so much fear and jealousy that he hurt the only person who tried to reach out to him over and over again, which lead to that person hurting the people who loved him and wanted to help. It’s an endless cycle, and even though it begins with Yui, I’m sure she has her own hurt, too, that she’s turned on everyone else.

#I love Yoo #ILY Brainrot #ILY FP #ILY Spoilers #Kousuke Hirahara #Yui Hirahara #Rand #manipulation and abuse cw #abuse cw #please let me know if you want me to use any other tags for this btw!#i think it's important that people know this episode and thus this commentary deals heavily with the discussion of parental manipulation #i don't want to spring that on someone and awaken their own struggles :(#this is also why i'm very adamant that we talk about Yui this way and understand how she operates and that this is not a case of mommy just #wuvs her baby boy so much that she'll burn down the world for him and that it's never been that way #and denying the abuse and adhering to this instead just further demonstrates how deft her tactics are #it denies the reality of kousuke's story and why he is the way he is why he does what he's done #we cannot understand kousuke without understanding how Yui has hurt him and what a damaging hold it mains on him #anyway i love this episode so much because it validates so many of my theories lol #but i really do feel for Kousuke and again i think that is the best part of ily #there are no shades of grey #kousuke's circumstances have affected other people in a terrible way #but i can still empathize with his circumstances #i can still wish for him to get out of there so he can grow #i can still wish for him to find real comfort and happiness because he isn't inherently evil #there's room for him to grow and i look forward to that day #i want the best for most of these characters

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