#but that can't be the overarching question of the season you know???

[boasamishipper]

i think the biggest problem of season 3 (of which there are Several) is the shift away from football being the crux of the story, which has undoubtedly resulted in the aimless, overstuffed, unfocused narrative we've been seeing for the last eight episodes. season one was as excellent as it was because whether richmond won or lost a match actually mattered; if they lost too many matches, they'd be relegated, and relegation was always treated as a distinct, tangible threat. there were stakes. and while season two had its issues with pacing and unnecessary subplots, no one would call it aimless. the characters had a goal (pun intended): to get promoted back to the premier league. if they lost too many matches, they would stay in the championship league. we as the audience were invested in whether or not richmond won or lost, and the narrative was all the stronger and more coherent for it.

season one asked us, can afc richmond avoid relegation? and we were invested in the answer. season two asked us, can afc richmond be promoted? and we were invested in the answer. now we're eight episodes into season three, and the overarching goal of the season, the question it is asking its audience to remain invested in, is...what? what are we building towards? is afc richmond's goal to win the whole damn thing? to beat west ham? to beat man city? to do just enough to avoid relegation again?

and because we can't answer this question, the narrative has suffered greatly. how are we supposed to believe beard when he says man city is the team's white whale if we haven't even seen them play each other yet this season? if ted's total football epiphany was so life-changing for richmond, why did we speed past all the matches this episode where the team won using that strategy? if this is all leading to a final nate-ted west ham-richmond match, why haven't we spent any time with nate at west ham? why haven't we gotten to see him grow and develop as a coach? at one point, the team was doing so badly that higgins suggested firing ted, who has been visibly struggling on and off the pitch - and the narrative did not give that suggestion the weight it might have had in season one or two. we spent an entire episode watching rupert, rebecca, and chelsea fight over zava - and then two episodes later he was gone, and we haven't so much as mentioned him since. just last season, sam was being heralded as the star of afc richmond, highly sought after by other club owners - but we haven't gotten to see any of his alleged brilliance on the pitch this season at all. i have to kick a little ball around, which those same people love me for, sam said in 3.07, that is, until i fuck up or miss a penalty, or i decide to fight back - a speech that was excellently delivered by toheeb, but loses some of its weight because we haven't actually gotten to see any negative reaction to sam missing a penalty or fucking up or deciding to fight back (not even in season 2 after the dubai air boycott).

(all this to say: i do enjoy the show. i love the characters, i've been enjoying the episodes as individual units, and i'll continue to tune in week after week. but for a show that once boasted football was life, it's sure been suffering since it decided to stop focusing on that.)

[paperclipninja]

I can't believe I forgot one of the most significant moments (imo) when I was mulling over duality etc here, and that is when Crowley goes up to Heaven to try and figure out what's going on. Actually, it's more than just multiple layers of truth. Yes there are a couple of truths at play, but as an audience we are given SO much information in this scene that it's almost hard to take it all in so I'm going to try and lay it out.

Here is what we learn in the whole scene:

Crowley knows that Muriel is a scrivener, including that they're 37th class. How?? Up until Crowley tricking Muriel into taking him to Heaven, there'd been no conversation about their angelic status

Crowley has a solid understanding of the way Heaven works and how to get around it (bees/once you're in, that they never change passwords etc)

Crowley has access to high level files

Saraqael seems to have a fondness? towards Crowley and allows him to view the trial, let's him know what happened and tells Muriel off but also not really

We get all the info about Gabriel and what happened

That Heaven wipes memories when demoting angels

When the alarm goes off because Aziraphale uses his halo, Crowley declares 'let's get back there' and directs Saraqael, 'you too' and they follow without question (though Crowley's original plan may have been to go and get Heavenly reinforcement but still, interesting the way he takes control and they just listen)

So the overarching duality in this scene - yes it is hilarious, the way Crowley gets Muriel to take him to Heaven in the first place and of course this whole situation:

but it's also an incredible act of love.

The entire season establishes unmistakably that Crowley has some very real trauma from his experience of being in Heaven as Aziraphale and cast into the hellfire, highlighted through his reactions to JimGabriel. Not to mention his history with Heaven and all that.

So in trying to come up with a solution to the demons attacking the bookshop, knowing that Heaven no longer have any real interest in helping Aziraphale, he willingly goes up there, the place he has made his feelings about very clear, to try and find some answers.

Yes this is a demonstration of Crowley's love for Aziraphale but it's also a demonstration of his love of humans and humanity. He puts aside his own feelings, takes a real risk (because he couldn't have known how any of the senior angels might respond to him being there...could he? Or what if the Metatron had seen him there? That's another pondering for another day...) and goes to the one place he has outright said he doesn't want to go back to, just to try and find a way to protect the humans and help Aziraphale.

THIS, to me, is the entire crux of where this is all heading. It's exactly the same reason Aziraphale gets in that lift. At the end of the day, Crowley and Aziraphale love humanity and want to protect it, even if it means risking themselves.

The multiple truths of this scene actually create a distraction I think. The humour of Crowley's outfit and little prancy toes make us think this is a light and funny moment, while we're also delighted by his subversion of Heavens 'rules' and processes and the revelations about Gabriel. It is both funny and informative. It does give us hints about Crowley's past while moving the current story forward.

But I think it's easy to miss the actions here, and that is that Crowley, who was cast out of Heaven, witnessed the ease with which they continue to cast angels into hellfire, saw the callousness of the Supreme Archangel as he condemned his best friend to no longer exist, put aside all he's witnessed and experienced because of love.

This is a love story. The love story of an angel and a demon, yes, but the love story of two entities, hereditary enemies, who fall in love with humanity and whose love for one another will give them the strength to protect it. At least, that's my take on it anyway :)

[luckykittysshowerthoughts]

Ok so so, this one depends on how far you might be in Nightbringer, but how likely do you think Michael is close to appearing in the NB game?

This might be wishful thinking, but I think he's pretty close.

I've noticed he's been coming up more and more, gradually becoming more of a significant character over the course of the series. Whereas in the early seasons of the OG, he was really only mentioned every once in a while and usually by Luke, he's gradually been making himself known. At the end of S2 he had his first distant conversation with MC, throughout S3 he started being mentioned more and had another conversation with MC, in S4 he had his first real influence on the overarching plot, and in Nightbringer we actually get to directly talk to him in person (albeit in disguise). He's gradually become more and more incorporated into the story over the seasons, and with him actually showing up in the flesh (even if not his own) last season was a HUGE step in this upward trend.

There was also the end of that last season, where it's heavily implied by Raphael and himself that he's planning on joining the exchange program at some point in the future.

None of this is really new, but I do have one thing to add to the discussion, and it's some more subtle foreshadowing from outside the main story. It's a Nightbringer phone call from Levi, talking about some random in-universe anime character. By now, we know that a lot of the in-universe media has parallels to the actual Obey Me story, and this one stuck out to me.

Hm... an angel who keeps randomly popping up. That sounds a little too familiar to be a coincidence. They even go as far as to put the dialogue, "I can't help but think he's going to play an important role in the story later."

This feels like pretty on-the-nose foreshadowing.

I think Michael's definitely coming soon, and will play a major role. My only question is which timeline.

I believe we've interacted with both timelines' Michaels in Nightbringer. NB timeline Michael was the one messing around in disguise as Raphael, but I believe it was OG timeline Michael who brought MC out of their coma. His mood seemed completely different in that coma conversation- he seemed stressed and frustrated, an understandable reaction to having someone incredibly important to your timeline tugged away. The Michael we saw later in the season seemed more or less indifferent to MC, more focused on the brothers than anything else- an understandable reaction for someone who had literally just lost them.

It's NB timeline's Michael who seems the most interested in showing himself. However, MC seems pretty damn close to remaking all their pacts and returning to their own timeline. So I have to wonder: which Michael are we going to meet? What's coming, and how exactly does he tie into it?

[averygayplant]

You guys ever think about how Zane's whole tyrannical genocide arc might have been a good thing for him?

No no no, wait, where are you going-? AT LEAST HEAR ME OUT-

Zane is one of the most complex characters of the entire show, and it's largely because he's literally the reverse of "you don't have to be a mythical beast to be a monster". No, Zane proves that you don't need to be human to have humanity, which is a subtle, overarching theme throughout the later seasons of the show that I'm choosing to believe is entirely intentional and not a side effect of Garmadon being Lloyd's endless migrane.

Anyway, where I'm going with this is that a very crucial part of who Zane is obviously connects to the fact he was built instead of born, and specifically created to protect those who can't protect themselves, an objective he's never failed to complete to the best of his ability. It's heavily implied and even indirectly stated that the reason he's so firmly attached to this directive is because it's the very essence of his code and function, and by extension, his sense of self. It's seen, even if largely just in offhand jokes, that his code has a very powerful influence over his choices and courses of action throughout the entire show. Sooo, how does this lead to me suggesting that the genocide he committed that is never talked about again except for in throwaway gags was actually good for him? Well, it wasn't, obviously, good for his mental health, but it was an important development of his character, and it didn't go to as much waste as I once believed. Think back with me, if you would be so kind, to the infamous mirror episode, when Nya, Zane and Lloyd were breaking and entering and bullying a hospitalized man.

We all know that Zane commented on how his worst fear was having his humanity stripped from him, to become nothing but cool, calculating code. We also know that it was subtle-not-so-subtle foreshadowing for the Never Realm bullshit. Here's the thing- Zane's code specifically dictates that he won't harm others unless it's to protect. So, if wiping his memories had stripped him down to his code, then... what would have changed? It's here where I would like to introduce the idea that over the course of the show, Zane's original code was overridden by him developing his own core values and following them with just as much vigor. Sure, his objective remains the same, protect who cannot protect themselves, but instead of being a core part of who he is because that's how he was designed, it remains a core part of who he is because it's who he chooses to be. Dr. Julian's code was replaced by his own little by little- so when his memory was wiped, there was simply nothing there. The only evidence left of his original instructions was what he remembered, and chose to follow of his own free will.

To summarize and organize my thoughts, the Never Realm was a lot of new and unexplored levels of fucked up and caused a lot of questions begging for answers- but weirdly, it also wrapped up a character arc that's been slowly building since season 1.

From now on, Zane is who he is purely because that's who he chooses to be, and even though it puts him at a huge disadvantage, he chooses to be human.

[reviewinghiccup]

RIDERS OF BERK | HTTYD SERIES | BREAKING DOWN HICCUP

Blog Post Series: Breaking Down Hiccup

Title: Breakneck Bog

Ep/Season: Episode 17, Season 1 (Riders of Berk)

Premise:

Hiccup and gang set out to the mysterious, maybe even dangerous Breakneck Bog in search for something once lost.

CHARACTER DISCUSSION

HICCUP HORRENDOUS HADDOCK III

(1) THE FILIAL SON

Stoick, Gobber, Hiccup, Thornado and Toothless go on a journey to find Trader Johann who is late and carrying a parcel on his ship Stoick really wants. When the mission fails, Hiccup decides to venture out on his own, to retrieve the lost treasure for his father.

Stoick didn't tell Hiccup that the treasure was actually a gift from his mother, knowing that if Hiccup knew that, he would've gone out of his way to get it back. However, what Stoick probably didn't bank on was the fact that Hiccup would do anything for him, regardless.

note: I need to get me one of those Berk crested satchels. Looks like it can carry a lot.

Of course, Astrid will come to find out about it and because our boy here cannot lie to the girl he likes, he told her everything. Well, that and more because, Astrid reads him like a book.

(2) UNHEEDED WARNINGS & STUBBORNNESS ISSUES

It felt like the running theme of the episode was unheeded warnings. Hiccup decided to find Trader Johann, even though it wasn't his father's wish for him to handle the operation on his own.

Snotlout got everyone to join the expedition despite being warned to keep the scout-group small.

And the decision to go into Breakneck Bog itself was stubbornness disguised as adventure.

It's so funny how Hiccup has no control over his group sometimes. No, sorry, its hilarious.

TRADER JOHANN

I open this question to the floor, do you think this incident was planned by Johann or did he really suffer an accident?

I mean, what are the odds that a valuable item to Stoick and Hiccup would be found on his ship the day he just had to pass Breakneck Bog. Do you think Johann planted it? I mean, it's not uncharacteristic of an evil mastermind to do so.

But that would mean, he knows them scarily well and planned to get rid of the riders this way.

Why I ask this question is because he was found on a plank, stranded in the middle of the ocean. We don't see any other ships or people nearby to help him. Did he really go that far to disguise his disloyalty?

Again, it wouldn't be uncharacteristic of him to do so. But still, no one can fault the dude for his dedication. Or acting.

THEME, MESSAGE & STORYLINE

"Most people are afraid of things because they don't understand them. For me, it was dragons. Then one day that changed, and my greatest fear became my best friend." - Hiccup

Just like Breakneck Bog and the elusive Fog Monster, there was great fear in the unexplainable. However, when the "cover" is blown and what was suppose to be scary ended up being nothing but a facade, we truly see where fears lie, in ignorance of truth.

A fear of dragons was the downfall of the village, until they started understanding them. Then they realised, like Hiccup did, that dragons were just like them. Scared, nervous, strong, independent.

That was also Valka's message which we learn in HTTYD 2. I liked this episode because it combined all my favourite bits of the show. The heartwarming family values, the bond of friendship, adventure and their overarching lesson, that you don't have to be afraid of the things you can't yet understand.

The episode is shrouded in mystery, i.e., Breakneck Bog, the Lost Treasure, the Fog Monsters. But the best part about it is how it is uncovered. And what "treasure" means to someone, is completely how we attach value to it.

Further, inasmuch as you can hate on Snotlout or be annoyed with the twins, you can't help but know that as a group they work well together and they will be there for each other.

In terms of comedic timing and pacing, this show definitely hits as one of the better ones. It's a mix of adventure, humour, family - in essence, what the entire franchise is about, but as a series it was a lovely bite size piece to enjoy.

PERSONAL FAVOURITE MOMENTS

A) EVERYONE UPSET THAT THEY HAVE A CONSCIOUS

B) HICCUP'S SIDE EYE WHEN SNOTLOUT CALLED ASTRID'S GRANDFATHER STUPID

C) A SCARED FISHLEGS OFFERING HICCUP HIS MOTHER

D) SNOTLOUT CALLING OUT JOHANN

Given Snotlout's distrust, he is actually someone who calls Johann out constantly. One thing Hiccup does fail to discern is the true nature of people. Which is a flaw that leads him to most of his problems.

E) ASTRID AND HICCUP'S HERO POSE

[fangirl-erdariel]

If you were given the job of 'showrunner of a show about Faramir' what would you do?

Oh that's a fascinating question, thank you! I will freely admit that I don't necessarily consider myself the most knowledgeable person about Faramir or the best at writing him even in my immediate fandom circle, so this is unlikely to be anything particularly groundbreaking or interesting, but I'll give it a shot

I think, since you've not given me specific limitations on when in the timeline this will be set, and that I would go for a show that focuses on Faramir in the months leading up to Boromir leaving for Rivendell, ending with that event. Not that a show about him in the times after the War of the Ring wouldn't be fascinating, but I don't think it's something I'd be very good at writing. And I'm not necessarily interested in following the story through the events of LOTR, either. So, like I said, following Faramir in the times leading up to the event that basically ties him and Boromir so tightly into the events of the story.

Wouldn't be a very long show, obviously, with that sort of time frame, but I'm a firm believer in deciding on the limits of the story you want to tell and narrowing it down to something you can manage, before starting to tell it. (Let's ignore the fact that I don't actually do that irl when I write fanfic, I just sit down and write and see what happens; the imaginary me who is a showrunner of a tv show is obviously more organized than the real life me anyway.) Not everything needs to be ten seasons long. And you could still get a full-length season or two out of even that premise, I think.

I would probably go for a somewhat episodic problem-of-the-week format, but with some overarching themes and plotlines developing across the whole show. I can't off the top of my head give you a list of episodes or their synopsis (how do you pluralize that? synopsis? synopses? synopsises? why is English so difficult), but, you know, most episodes probably focusing on the various troubles of leading the soldiers in Ithilien, one episode focused on the planning of an attack on an enemy troop that will be moving through, another of "how the f*ck has the enemy been managing to constantly mess with our supply lines that we thought were secure and how do we stop them from doing that", maybe one of the classic "there's a spy among our midst but who is it??" plot, one where Faramir has to handle a bunch of young inexperienced soldiers who are either uncertain or too reckless and eager to pursue glory and probably going to get either themselves or other people killed if he can't get them to get their act together. And so on and so forth, I'm sure you get the gist. Probably mix it up sometimes and have some episodes set in Minas Tirith, maybe a couple bringing Faramir on some errand to more southern parts of Gondor, too. Ithilien episodes would probably have elements of military drama, Minas Tirith episodes elements of political drama.

I think the second-to-last episode of the show would have the first time Faramir has the dream that'll send Boromir to Gondor, and would have the attack on Osgiliath and that whole thing. And the absolute last episode would be just focused on the dream and what to do about it, and would see Boromir leaving on his journey.

I think one thing I'd explore a lot would be the differing ways that other characters see him. Both in terms of the relationships with his family, the way that he is a beloved little brother to Boromir but always the less capable and worthy in Denethor's eyes, but also in terms of outside that family circle. Like, we see in the books that he is adored by the people, and that he is greatly respected by the soldiers under his command, he is a captain they are glad to follow, a skilled leader who is able to keep troops from panicking and retain good order even in difficult, chaotic situations.

And then, going off of that, how does all that compare to the way Faramir sees himself? How does the place he is appointed by those around him fit, or not fit, what he himself would want to be, if he could choose? Even people who love or admire you can still view you in ways that aren't entirely true, or treat you in a way or put you in situations that you find constraining or poorly fit for you, and I think playing with that with Faramir could be interesting. I think I might go for making one of the conflicts carried through the show be that while Boromir loves Faramir, he doesn't always quite treat him as a responsible adult and an equal, but a little brother to be protected and watched over and helped, and for all that Faramir also loves Boromir, it's still frustrating. And though Boromir does insist on being the one to make the journey to Rivendell because he's older and stronger and doesn't like the idea of Faramir going off alone on a long journey to the unknown, it is still in some ways also an admission on his part that he trusts Faramir to be responsible and clever and capable enough to be in charge of the lives of soldiers and of various duties Boromir has that will fall on Faramir in his absence, without Boromir's constant oversight and being always somewhere near enough to come to his aid.

Besides that, I think I would like to incorporate hope and despair as one central theme, seeing as it's also so very central to LOTR. Also, this isn't anything about deep themes or being clever or whatever, it's really just self-indulgence, but I think I'd like to incorporate songs and poetry the characters actually sing and recite into the story. Just, like, whatever, military marches, funeral laments, narrative stuff sung to pass the time, people competing on who can most accurately memorize some tricky poem just for the hell of it, all that. Like, Middle-Earth just has music so intrinsically bound into the stories and it's an aspect of the books I really love, but so few adaptations incorporate it much at all! (I am tooootally not jealous to my mom because she got to see the 1988/-89 LOTR play that actually included a bunch of the poems from the books set to music, totally not, why are you asking)

Also, can we cast Luke Pasqualino as Faramir? No particular reason except that I think he's pretty

Geez, that got long ':D Idk how much sense any of that makes, but, hey, thanks for giving me an excuse to ramble!!

Out of curiosity, if you were given the same job of being a showrunner for a show about Faramir, what would you do with it?

[therowdymagpie]

The Main 6 as AJR songs(pt.1): The Click

A/N: I have no idea who is going to care about this, but character analysis through songs is one of my favourite activities and combining two of my biggest hyperfixations at the moment seems like a good way to combat seasonal depression so, enjoy this mini headcanon series.(spoiler for all routes of course)

Asra: Turning Out

Starting off, for Asra "Turning out" really strikes me as the song that could desrcibe how disoriented they must have felt during the first few months of the Apprentice's resurrection.

These two verses could just really be talking about Asra's feelings at the start where the Apprentice doesn't recognise them and the surprise of the ritual not working the way it was supposed to. All of the questions they could have asked themselves:

"Am I ready to be their lover or friend?"

"Do you have instructions?"

"Where do I go from here?" are all things they would be wondering about how to best approach this, how can they go back to the way they and the MC were before.

And of course the themes of unexpected or unrequited love that deviates from storybooks, pop up. This is NOT a fairytale, this is a very traumatic, very fragile situation Asra is in, where they aren't a normal couple with Mc, where this is really anything but a love story, actually slowly evolving more into a romantic tragedy as they don't know how to approach the Mc. Sometimes not even as a friend or lover but simply falling into the role of a "Master" or teacher.

Especially with this part, I can really see it as an entire internalised conversation in Asra's mind, with the version of MC they're familiar with.

Shouldn't they wait before they give up?

Don't they want to see the Mc get better?

Don't they want to wait and see if the Apprentice will love them again.?

And how everything is turning out in the end?

This is a song deep into the frustration and dissapointment coming out of a love you can't predict and at the same time a relationship you desperately want to make work exactly the way you want to, which works pretty well in this scenario.

Nadia: Burn The House Down

This song specifically i feel like fits Nadia SO MUCH. Aside from the political themes that are spread all around it, I really want to talk about lines like:

Knowing how Pre Red Plague Era, Nadia had this toned down role in Vesuvia, blending behind Lucio's shadow as nothing more than an observer, this would be her train of doubts about her potition and if she herself as a Countess can make actual difference to better the city. It's these doubts that held her behind in fear of people once again ignoring and sidestepping her, much like how in Prakra she felt a similar way with her family.

These doubts later on also follow her throughout her own route, when she has the chance to prove herself to her city and be the leader it deserves.

As well as:

Which just fits fits so much with the Courtiers situation and the corrupt polititians that overran Vesuvia while she was in her coma state. This also fits Lucio and how he was only parading the role of the Count while scheming, hiding, stricking deals while the only things he did for the city were to constanly keep up appearances and throw parties.

Overall the theme of stopping the circle of letting other people rule over your life and deciding to take charge and work WITH others to better the situation around you, whether political or not are all really resonating with Nadia. It's a great "pumping up" motivational song that describes her journey and personal growth as a Countess and a person.

Julian: Weak

(For those who know AJR or actually have heard this song: Come on.....what did you expect? XD)

The overarching theme of succumbing to your bad habits is LITERALLY indicative of Julian's whole route. How he resorts to drinking, punishing himself, overindulging in bad company and every other coping mechanism he uses are there in the lyrics:

Small mention to how "one kiss, bad for me" could very well refer to the apprentice and how he has to distance himself from them, but at the same time can't seem to be able to fully detatch. He's a wanted man, there is no way that getting involved in a romance that can never be isn't going to hurt him, right?

Especially i feel like this song fits him so well exactly because Julian KNOWS all this, he's said it himself:

Julian understands that he is ruining himself, that he is hurting others while doing it, that he should say no to the dark thougths in his mind and all the bad impulses BUT he also has convinced himself that he's not strong enough for that and keeps going back to the same bad habits.

In the end this is a party anthem and we know Julian to be a party person himself, so he hypes it up. "What's wrong with that?" as well as the whole mood of the song could very well be him actively trying to convince everyone and himself, that...he's "weak", it's just who he is and he can't change. That way he can push people away and scare them off with how " iredeemable" he is and how he's just going to keep making mistakes. All because he just doesn't want to take anyone down with him....

I also want to make quick reference to "Sober Up" and this lyric that's also giving strong Julian vibes with the MC helping him get out of his head.

Muriel: I'm not Famous

OK while this song doesn't melodically give me huuge Muriel vibes, the lyrics are thematical to his whole hermit situation.

This man put a magic curse ON HIMSELF that makes people forget that they even met him, except the people he gives something to remember him by, meaning the people closest to him.

Like literally Muriel never has to worry about people talking about him, where he lives, what he likes to do, what are his habits or bother him anymore and that's described here like his personal paradise.

Which honestly makes so much sense if you take into consideration what his past used to be like. The trauma he endured by being in the Colissium and having everyone watch the worst version of himself EVERY SINGLE DAY, definetely warrants seeing almost complete isolation as bliss.

(Also noone hates him, he's our gentle giant that deserves the world fandom-wise and he's adored by everyone who DOES know him in Vesuvia.)

Honestly i feel like this song could very well be Muriel's personal diss towards Lucio, which is very funny to think about:

Muriel is a hermit and yet he is more loved and acknoledged for who he is than Lucio will ever be (according to Muriel's route anyway). Lucio was loud, the main attraction for many, the centre of attention and yet people in the majority "judge" him and have seen all of his personal failures out on display because he chose to parade around trying to show that he was the best.

Muriel finds comfort in being unknown and has never been afraid to express that. He apprieciates the people in his life that matter which is exactly why this song fits this well.

Portia: Drama (/Turning Out)

Maybe i'm cheating with this one but I cannot talk about Portia without refering to both of these songs.

For starters, Drama: Now it's well known that Portia is an undisputed gossip queen. The woman has an entire map drawn out of secret passages scattered around the palace that STILL isn't fully finished, she knows the entire palace staff by name and she's not too unfamiliar about any street rumors or juicy stories. Point being: she goes around.

The song describes how we can become envolved to other people's drama and get caught up in their stories so much it's addicting.

Now regardless of what perspective we see Portia from, one thing is clear: She wants excitement out her life and to get to do adventurous things of her own. Unfortunately though, because of her obligations and role she is instead "addicted" to other people's stories and shines through others.

In every story except her own she is just there, observing, seeing what happens next and contributes as much as she can because she can't be fully a part of it herself.

Only in her own route does she get to actively be an important part of the story and the "Drama", getting out of the mindset of being a background character, take action and voice her opinions.

Tbh i haven't fully finished her route but so far i can at least understand this: Portia needs an opportunity to shine as her own person, and this song perfectly portrays that.

As for Turning Out, I just can't keep out of my head Portia saying these lines to Julian:

I think Portia was so genuinely hurt by Julian leaving her behind in Nevivon and telling him all this would just hit SO HARD, especially since she grew up with and I think really admired him. Nevemind the fact that she was very close to losing him again with the execution , which makes these lyrics sting all the more.

That and the themes of growing up and getting your head out of stories and fairytales you read really sounds perfect for her character.

Lucio: The Good Part

Well what can i say, The Good Part is loud, energetic but at the same time just so pensive, which fit pretty good on Lucio if you think about it.

The entirety of the song and lyrics keep referring to skipping to the best part of your life and keep wondering when that actually is. Lucio is a complex character which I love but so much is apparent about him: He wants to be respected and he wants power. The thing is he isn't always going to work too hard to achieve it.

His impentience as to when he'll be leader of his tribe is what drives him to the demon bargain that would make his parents sick and supposedly "skip" all of the proving himself as worthy of it and directly place him right on top. That behaviour later on continues with his deals with the Courtiers and then the Devil himself.

And then later on even when he actually becomes a Count he still keeps showing off, throwing over-the-top parties and trying to give all the best things to his court and people. He keeps trying to make every moment the "Good Part" of his life constanly thinking he can go even more respected and loved as a ruler, even seeking to overthrow the Devil in some routes.

Lucio for all his skills and passion lacks patience and the ability to think ahead, jumping into situations that will get him where he wants to be all the faster. The song doesn't wholly describe his motivations and personality but it definetely hits on that particular aspect of him.

ShoutOut to familial issues:

______________________________________________________________

Annnd that's it, hoping to continue in Pt.2.

P.S Please go and listen to AJR folks they have some really deep, heartbreaking and thought-provoking stuff.

[chaifootsteps]

One thing about Hazbin that makes me sad is that I was so inspired and kind of obsessed with it over covid. I really thought it was going to be the next big thing and had the potential (note: potential) to be an insightful story about redemption and what it means to be "good person." I really was hoping it would do into ideologies and how good is subjective and can be variable, but that doesn't diminish the importance of trying to be the best you can to the world and those around you. I always liked how Charlie's song in the pilot seemed to focus on the plethora of "not to do's" and how being positive will get you into Heaven, which is superfical, but I was so excited to see her grow and understand what it means for someone to be worth redemption and even if they are, would the powers at be allow them into heaven.

Then Helluva Boss happened. And I am actually glad it did, since it really let me check my Hazbin expectation. I genuinly think season 1 had problems, but overall a genuinly okay season. I would have made some/quite a few changes, but it works. Season 2 feels so aimless and no overarching story. Season 1 can semi get away with that because it is the start so things are getting started, but it also had some themes of Moxxie's and Blitz's sense of self and the relationship with Stolas. I really didn't ship Stolitz, since they are not my cup of tea (I find little too creepy sometimes), but I was curious where things were going to go.

I think Hazbin genuinly has Helluva as a blessing and a curse. Hazbin had cracks but overall the pilot is more enjoyable than Helluva in my opinion. There are things I don't like, but I had some hope things would get ironed out for a grand show. Helluva really had me tamper my expectations for what I will see in Hazbin, but it also killed my intrest and excitement. If this is Vivzie at her best, then what is Hazbin. Did rhey have a writers room to critique the story or are we going with Viv's vision. I will say the quality of the show completly depends on how much of a writers room workshopped her ideas. I think she has fantastic ideas and concepts but is poor on the followthrough. It could still have a chance if theg brought writers in to help her.

I also worry that with the amount of time between the pilot and the release Hazbin fans have had more time to read and develope more insightful character and if Helluva is any example, then I worry that we shouldn't expect much from Hazbin.

I also don't think Vivzie has done much late 19th and 20th century history reading, since most of her characters were born, lived, and died then, but it only takes 10 minutes of googling and just wiki (a sourse viv has access to) to see how little research and sense went into some character backstories. You gotta at least know some broad stroked of when there were born, what they were around for at what ages and when they died. Strangly I think Husk is biggest offender, but I bet Alastor the more the show goes on will take the cake. If Mimzie shows up, I bet she's also barely researched since her asthetic and death date don't line up if you want her to be like that when she died. I have been reading for unrelated reasons books of early 20th century history of the US and around the world. I could write paragraphs on the issues of Husk historically and how we barely makes sense or doesn't. I know it's a fictional work, but some of these are bad, and it makes Viv look ignorant. You don't need things to be perfect for your show, and I would implore people to take some creative liberties, since the past is super complicated. However, I shouldn't be able to google questions and read wiki for 10 minutes to destroy your character idea completely since the backstory becomes impossible almost instantly. (HUSK)

Now Helluva is doing something and the show I waited years for I feel might be a dud. I can't say it didn't have positive impacts on my life since it made me curious to try new hobbies that reminded me of the characters. It's dorky but I kept my reasonings to myselr and just enjoyed the activity. I now habe nee friends, hobbies, and skills (and no one knows why I did this).

Anon, are you sure you're not me? Because the covid lockdown was exactly what led to me getting into Hazbin, and then attached enough to ignore Vivzie's stacking red flags for a while. It kept me sane during that miserable summer, which just so happened to coincide with some very difficult fandom stuff. It got me through when my grandma died.

Admitting the show wasn't the one we all dreamed of would have been one thing. Discovering what a tremendously awful person Vivzie is, that was a lot harder.

[mllemaenad]

The Magnus Protocol: Running on Empty

While I have nothing but sympathy for the poor tutor who had to mark that essay, I must admit I enjoy the return to stories where a survivor recounts a bizarre supernatural experience.

It's not that I can't take an episode where the monster wins – those can be very effective. But, well, while I enjoyed the overarching plot in the fifth season of The Magnus Archives, I must admit I enjoyed the individual stories significantly less than the ones in the previous seasons. Mostly because they weren't stories so much as descriptions of suffering. Because the victims generally had little sense of a time before or after their torment, you missed out on all the bits about how they got themselves into this mess, how they got themselves out of it, and what they thought the whole thing meant. The personalities, the individual characters who came and went after their one weird thing, were part of the fun. And they were largely absent.

The cases in The Magnus Protocol aren't exactly like that, of course: you can glean a bunch of background, at least, by reading between the lines. But still. There's something immensely cheering about getting a couple of stories where someone essentially rolls in to declare "So that was weird, right?" and then wander off again.

Also, apparently Norris doesn't like the night shift.

It's interesting how similar the last two cases are. Dianne didn't seem like the type to use terms like "liminal spaces", but Hilltop Road has very literally been a threshold between worlds:

Martin/Annabelle Once there was a house, a building that, for all it might have looked like those around it, was not the same. Stop, no. It didn’t start with the house. It was here long before any might have thought of it as a home. Once, there was a patch of land, not quite as firm in this reality as that which surrounded it. Stop, no. It’s not about the land. Mud and soil has no part in what is there. Once, there was a point in space that did not quite obey all those petty rules that decide what can be allowed to happen in a world. Stop, no. It’s not a point in space. The Earth spins and hurtles through the darkness, but it still carries it along. Let us simply say that once there was a place. A place where the universe had… cracked. – The Magnus Archives: This Old House

And if you don't know that, then you do know that Hilltop Centre's status as a charity shop makes it a way station for objects of all kinds. And this place let those almost-human people in, and let them bring their weird objects with them.

The people in Running on Empty put me in mind of the gibbering crowd in Lost in the Crowd, whereas the volunteers in Give and Take reminded me of the students in Anatomy Class, but that's more a question of degree than kind. The latter put on a good enough show that it took weeks to really confirm there was something wrong with them; the former could be spotted almost instantly. Both are stories of the uncanny valley: the thing that is almost but not quite human. And in both cases the victim is very nearly overwhelmed by the crowd: objects crushing, or "people" biting, sure, but both instances of being isolated, outnumbered and then assaulted.

Poor Terrance is a perfect victim, as well: he already has a nervous breakdown on record, which will mark him as an unreliable witness, he is isolated enough that nobody reported him missing after his incident, and his job requires him to spend a great deal of time alone.

Norris is describing the situation in the OIAR perfectly. They are a small number of people working a night shift in an old building clearly intended to contain more staff:

Celia Sure, no worries. I’ll be honest, I thought there’d be more people working here given the size of the building? Sam Yeah, no we’re, uh… Alice Streamlined? – The Magnus Protocol: Introductions

The point of their work is deeply obscure to them:

Sam Where does it go? Alice If I were a betting woman, I'd say some long dead database that no-one will ever look at or care about. Sam So why do it? Alice Because that's what they're paying us to do. – The Magnus Protocol: First Shift

Their odd hours put them out of step with normal social conventions:

Gertrude To what do we owe this early morning… pleasure. Sam Oh yeah, sorry we work nights so… Gertrude So? – The Magnus Protocol: Running on Empty

And the place has high turnover and burn out rates. Colin is clearly not coping – he is absolutely right about the electronics being weird, but he isn't dealing with that information very well – Sam is struggling with the sleep schedule, Gwen is stressed enough that she's about to commit a murder over an empty kettle and Alice ... unflappable Alice is worried:

Alice Just been a lot of changes round here recently. I don’t love it. Teddy, Sam, Celia, and did you hear Lena put Colin on “mental health leave”? – The Magnus Protocol: Running on Empty

It's not clear whether the computer voices are aware of each other, so calling it coordinated is probably overstepping the available evidence at this point: but Chester and Norris do seem to have delivered almost exactly the same warning. What might the staff of the OIAR be in danger of letting in?

The story also continues its thread of visual communication, with Gerry's painting. Gerard Keay has always been a painter, of course. But if The Magnus Archives needed to give you a visual, it simply did:

Archivist/Dominic Swain Instead, my attention was fixed on a picture attached to the one small area of wall not covered by bookshelves. It was a painting of an eye. Very detailed, and at first I almost would have said almost photorealistic, but the more I looked at it, the more I saw the patterns and symmetries that formed into a single image, until I was so focused on them that I started to have difficulty seeing the eye itself. Written below it were three lines, in fine green calligraphy: “Grant us the sight that we may not know. Grant us the scent that we may not catch. Grant us the sound that we may not call.” – The Magnus Archives: Pageturner

But here there is:

The video you could not watch

The alert that was not read out by a text-to-speech program

The email you could not read

The painting you could not see

The painting might not be anything, of course. But if you knew something could hear you but not see you, a person might resort to communicating purely through a visual medium. "John" apparently sent Sam Gertrude and Gerry's address. But nobody knew that until they got there, and so they travelled unmolested.

It's hard to say for sure what this universe's Gertrude knows – although I'm going to assume she knows something of significance, or she wouldn't be here – but it makes an interesting contrast to The Magnus Archives. There, the primary concern was being seen, and Gertrude was paranoid enough on that front to cut out the eyes from the illustrations in all her books. So one might expect equally paranoid behaviour if the concern was being heard.

The actual arrival of Gertrude and Gerry is fun: I enjoyed both characters, so I'm happy to see more (although if I get to wish to see an existing character, it's Adelard Dekker; I was always a little sad that we never got to properly meet him). It is suggestive of the way the world works that they're together, though.

I mean – I know this isn't the kind of alternate universe story where the Roman Empire never fell. It's recognisable modern day Britain, so I assume just about everybody still hates Margaret Thatcher and it's customary to drive on the left hand side of the road.

But it's a different world, and the history relevant to the story has not played out the same way. And yet, Gertrude and Gerard Keay are still a duo. Are there some things that are always true, then, no matter the world? I'd be interested to learn how it came about, though. That Sam was personally traumatised by The Magnus Institute isn't exactly surprising: he hardly hid his interest, after all. But Gerard Keay? Signing her kid up for a "gifted" program at The Magnus Institute doesn't sound like Mary Keay's style at all: she valued her independence too much. So what happened there?

And what is Georgie doing? It does make one wonder what life would have been like for her and Melanie – the first ones, I mean – when the world was put back together. Everyone clearly remembered what had happened, or they wouldn't have bothered to murder Simon Fairchild. So they would always be set apart.

My general thoughts on the plan are that it is reasonable to pass the entities along. Sure, it's a trolley problem. Nobody likes a trolley problem. But you are setting a risk of harm to the denizens of other worlds against the certain deaths of everyone in yours. So – sure, have at it.

But if you do that, you have now made yourself responsible for those worlds. You know what these things are, and you know how they operate. The people in other worlds likely do not, and won't know how to defend themselves.

So maybe, now, you have a responsibility to do something about that. Ha. Like make a really good podcast about it.

[milo-the-professional-yapper]

Hello! about your malevolent ask

[long ass answer- many apologies]

its a slightly goofy, sort of horror soap opera, in the vein of call of cthulu/tma. I dont find it Super Scary, but idk what your milage for horror is.

The overarching plot is drivin by the patrions (sp sorry), in the style of a choose your own adventure novel- you can usually tell where the choices are; it'll be something like 'omg arthur, we're at a crossroads- do we go left, to the evil cavern (where the horrors live) or right, to the evil woods (more horrors).' You can also hear more overt RPG stylings in the beginning- dice roll sounds for perception checks, etc. These do fade out after the first season.

Rough outline (some spoilers): John (a spirit/demon type guy) possesses Arthur (a detective from Arkham MA) and, in doing so, takes over his eyes. Now Arthur must navigate the world with only the guidance of the voice in his head. Horrors unfold, walls are walked into the boys are in their get-along consciousness. Think venom, if both of them were way bitchier and prone to swearing. and also eddy was blind.

IS IT GAY: Yes and no. If its a friendship, its really intense- but cannonicaly it has been very firmly stated that they are just friends. However, the relationship is intertwined and deep enough that many people consider it to be queerplatonic- Arthur being aromantic is a very popular interpretation, if that sweetens the pot for you (idk how loosely you're using gay here). Glib answer: its pretty queer, but no kissing.

COOL STUFF:

-A dramatic, intense relationship between a guy and the dude who lives in his head. They argue ( my god how they argue) they make up, they argue again.

-The saddest little english man (arthur) gets chucked off cliffs multiple times. Do you like men whimpering? This is the podcast for you!

-Very impressive voice acting: the writer voices absolutely everyone in the podcast (yes. everyone) and its genuinely almost unnoticeable. You really do have to have it pointed out to you.

-Fun, slightly campy (in the way of an rpg campaign) Lovecraft style horror

-Lovely piano soundtrack

-A gentleman called the butcher shows up in- what season 3? maybe?- and I adore him. Go singing irishman go. You get that violent homoeroticism.

Drawbacks:

Again, I don't really know your taste, but these are some of the things that might turn someone off from listening. YMMV etc.

-LOUD. If you dont like gentlemen yelling DIRECTLY AND ANGRILY INTO THE MIC then this is not for you. If you do like that, then you are about the have the time of your life. There is also just. An incredible amount of panting/heavy breathing. Also directly into the mic, and at length. Like, an 'i am secretly watching gay pornography' amount. I had it going on a speaker once and my roommate had questions, kind of amount

-Almost no women characters: understandable, since a dude is voicing Literally Everyone- but it is something of a sausage fest. Women exist in universe, they just tend to move in the backround/be unvoiced. Lots of 'oh heres whats happened to her' sort of describing around the 'I can't voice a woman' issue. One old lady has a few voice lines and thats it.

-Kind of a soap: This is a draw for me ngl, but if you are looking for TMA 2: the magnusing- she isn't it. Its a LOT lighter than tma, writing wise, and isnt exactly hitting any crazy new twists in its plot (if you've read Any lovecraftian stuff you probably wont be super surprised by anything)BUT. Its still very fun. Two dudes sharing a body, detective roadship shenanigans. They might kiss! Might see some skinned bodies or something.

The dynamics can be a lil repetative (wake up break up back together) and the plot can be a little- ehhhh. due to it being yk, patrion controlled- but that can be fun- it's pretty heavily a choose your own adventure story at heart, so if your down with that (and the sillyness that comes with it) then you'll like it.

-Gore: pretty gory. I enjoy that sort of thing/ am not really effected by it BUT if that not your cup of tea, then you might wanna skedaddle.

🤠 thats all. Again, apologies for the very long answer.

First off- don’t apologize! This gave me everything I needed- thank you for the detailed answer to my question! Looks like I’m giving this podcast a listen- everyone wish me luck 😭

[addictedtostorytelling]

Hello, I am asking about GSR because I love your thorough and thoughtful answers. I'm rewatching early CSI, and I know that the opinions of the producers towards GSR were not always favorable early on - they'd planned to can the whole relationship after S3, if I recall correctly, but WP & JF campaigned to keep them going. So I'm wondering, for early GSR, do you think that some of the claim that Grissom always loved Sara is retconned to fit the later plot? Or do you think that Grissom was written/acted to have been in love with her the whole series, and just keeping it under wraps, as the character later claims? Can we canonically read S1, S2 & S3 William Petersen acting a Grissom who doesn't know what to do with his feelings of love for Sara, or is it more likely that he was at the time meant to be acting as not sure how to handle her being so interested in him while his interest was not as strong? It seems like by S4 Butterflied that the writers & WP had decided Grissom was currently and had been in love with Sara. Would appreciate your thoughts!

hi, @nostromosigningoff!

thank you for your kind words! i'm glad you like my answers.

in response to your question:

up front, i will say i do not believe that the idea grissom expresses in episode 04x12 "butterflied" (and also at later points, such as in "immortality") that he has always been in love with sara represents a retcon.

for something to be a retcon, it has to contradict a previously established canonical plot point, thereby breaking the continuity.

for example, in s1, catherine is established to have a sister (who often helps to care for lindsey), but in later seasons, she is depicted as an only child; her sister being written out of existence is therefore a retcon.

so since it is never established that grissom definitely is not in love with sara pre-s4, then it can't be a retcon to have him say (or at least imply) in episode 04x12 "butterflied" that he has been in love with her the whole time he's known her.

it's not a rewriting of explicit history.

there is room within the narrative for what he says to be true and (within the universe of the show) to have always been true.

and, ultimately, i think the show makes it pretty clear that grissom does in fact have feelings for sara from the start, not only through explicit textual acknowledgment but also through certain acting choices billy makes, staging decisions, overarching themes, etc.

that said, the question of "was he (outside of the universe of the show) always intended to have been in love with her and only her from the beginning?" is, admittedly, a little more complicated, the answer running along the lines of "yes and no."

more discussion after the "keep reading," if you're interested.

__

first, some clarification: despite the fact that the showrunners eventually questioned the viability of gsr at the end of s3 (after grissom had declined sara's dinner invitation in episode 03x22 "play with fire"), they were not (in general) unfavorable to romantic gsr prior to that point.

while anthony zuiker had never intended for csi to be a show that focused primarily on the characters' home and love lives (and instead wanted to keep the drama firmly situated in their work), gsr had indeed been conceptualized of as a romance—and a mutual romance, at that—from day 1*.

* or technically "day 2," since jorja fox was only hired and the character of sara sidle only created after they had already filmed the pilot.

jorja fox was cast as sara with the understanding that her character would be "the love interest for gil grissom"—and note the wording she was supplied, which suggests that grissom has an interest in sara (and not that sara has unrequited feelings for him). she knew going into the job that her character was meant to match up with the show's leading man and be the object of his attraction.

to that end, many scenes throughout csi s1, s2, and s3 were written and/or directed and acted with the gsr romantic angle explicitly in mind—with the feelings evident on both sides.

multiple episodes of the early seasons heavily feature and develop the notion that grissom does have both a sexual attraction and an emotional connection to sara, beyond anyone else, and only really make sense within that context (e.g., episodes 01x03 "crate n' burial," 01x10 "sex, lies, & larvae," 01x23 "the strip strangler," 02x16 "primum non nocere," the entire grissom jealousy arc of early s3, etc.).

moreover, within these episodes, sara is not always shown as being the "pursuer." there are plenty of times when grissom expresses his attraction to, feelings for, and devotion to her unprompted, such as, for example, in episode 02x16 "primum non nocere."

this example is especially relevant to our question, as grissom's "since i met you" quip not only establishes his attraction and emotional connection to sara but also specifies that it has been a "from the moment he met her" deal. since when does he care about beauty? literally from the moment he met her and realized how beautiful she is.

the fact that he does so proves: he's not just a boss stuck in the awkward position of having a subordinate with unrequited feelings for him; he has feelings of his own, which he often expresses independent of her saying or doing anything to provoke him to.

while he is undeniably conflicted about his feelings and unsure of what to do about them, the fact is that he does have them.

and much of the tension between grissom and sara in the early seasons is based on that reality—both explicit narrative cues (such as catherine bringing the issue up to grissom in episode 02x15 "burden of proof," prodding him to deal with whatever lingering romantic feelings exist between him and sara so they can effectively work together) and billy's acting choices make that point clear.

the problem is that neither grissom nor sara can ever just fully walk away from their connection; that deep down, neither one of them wants to.

so.

outside of the universe of the show, the situation was that the showrunners had this ship that had been written as being romantic from the beginning, with mutual feelings on both sides, which they had then teased for so long and complicated in so many ways that after three seasons—which is the traditional point at which most tv "will they or won't they?" couples have their slow-burn arcs resolved—they were questioning if it was still viable (and particularly as the ship was polarizing and not universally popular with the fans).

after all, by this time, they had already had grissom and sara acknowledge the attraction head-on (see episodes 03x02 "the accused is entitled" and 03x22 "play with fire") and had had grissom turn down sara's direct romantic overture toward him, so it was time to either "drive or get out of the car," so to speak.

it was never the case that the showrunners (as a collective) had hated gsr or been against it as a romance from the get-go. it had also never been the case that they viewed it as a one-sided, "sara is in love with him but he is indifferent to her" thing, either.

whatever else may be true, grissom was consistently shown to have feelings for sara (which oftentimes complicated their interactions).

it's just that after the rigmarole of s3, there was some question of "now that we've gotten grissom and sara to this (fraught) point, should we bother to continue their romantic relationship? or is our audience burnt out on all this angst? do people actually still want to see them together?"

the writers were inclined to think no, especially because (as stated) gsr as a concept had always been divisive among fans.

however, both billy and jorja understood gsr to be so central to their characters that they advocated for the romantic storyline to continue (and eventually see some consummation).

over the course of the hiatus between s3 and s4, they lobbied to maintain the ship (or, in other words, to go with the original plan), and eventually, they persuaded the showrunners to stick with it, which meant that s4 began with romantic gsr "still on the table."

as talked about in this excerpt from the csi: crime scene investigation companion book,

because billy and jorja were successful in their campaign, there was essentially no gap in coverage with gsr being written as romantic throughout the series; that throughline persisted from episode 01x02 "cool change" on, even after the events of episode 03x22 "play with fire."

now.

all of the above said, a couple of things should be noted:

first, csi was always a show with multiple writers who, though they functioned as a team, were nevertheless not a monolith in terms of how they conceptualized of the show, its characters, their storylines, etc.

that so, mileage would often vary with csi storytelling depending on which particular writer was the primary one for a particular script or even longer story arc.

though gsr was conceived of as a romance from the beginning of the series, prior to them "going canon" with the big reveal at the end of s6, there were various writers who put their own spins on the ship. some of them applied little effort to developing the romance angle as main text on the show, adhering to the zuiker "focus on the criminalistics" mandate to the letter and leaving it mostly to billy and jorja to inflect their performances with attraction/interest "between the lines" as they would in the absence of more explicit treatment in their scripts. however, others would alternate based on their own whims or what the story of the day called for, sometimes teasing the romance explicitly and other times downplaying it and/or leaving it understated (especially in favor of other potential grissom ships, like kessom). still others consistently played to and developed the romance, pushing that overarching story along and establishing it as a series mainline (the most reliable captains of this last camp, for my money, being david rambo and sarah goldfinger).

there was also variation, even among those writers who did place gsr romance on the center stage, in terms of how they portrayed the dynamic, and particularly with regards to the question of grissom's characterization within it. some wrote more toward grissom being confused, others toward grissom being repressed and afraid, others toward him being manipulative of sara's feelings, others toward him being conscientious of power structures and professional considerations, etc. they also had multifarious interpretations of the exact nature of the romance itself, especially in terms of what grissom and sara's pre-vegas history might be, the type(s) of attraction at play and how that might manifest, what exactly the characters' hang-ups and motivations with regards to each other were, the level of intimacy between them, etc.

that being the case, we can't really speak of all of the writers and showrunners sharing a common attitude toward or understanding of gsr without oversimplifying the matter.

the truth is, views among the writing and production staff on the show toward gsr were as various as they were/are within the fandom.

carol mendelsohn, for example, has spoken of the fact that there was never a consensus in the writers' room about whether or not grissom and sara had slept together prior to sara moving to las vegas. she personally felt that they had, though other writers/producers felt they hadn't.

while there was a baseline understanding across the production that sara was meant to be grissom's love interest and that there was some kind of nebulous ~history between them, there were lots of different ways members of the production team interpreted and depicted that relationship beat (which is why the gsr storyline sometimes feels so inconsistent, even within the course of a single season).

another thing we have to keep in mind when talking about intentionality re: gsr romance is that while we as fans often talk of ships "always being endgame," more often than not, showrunners and writers don't operate with that kind of certainty in place.

with the exceptions of shows where the main romance is the be-all, end-all central plot point, with the whole story revolving around particular characters getting together/staying together/having an eventual happy ending, in most cases, most tv romances do not come with a guarantee of endgame status. writers prefer to keep their options open, writing toward what is most interesting and playing on chemistry wherever they may happen upon it.

they also sometimes are constrained by production realities (such as studio mandates, shifting actor availabilities, cast dynamics issues, etc.), which make it so they can't necessarily just "write what they want."

that so, while it is accurate to say that the writers always conceived of gsr as being mutually romantic in nature—as per the character notes jorja was given by the production team and the fact that when billy and jorja first met, they did so with the understanding that they were going to be scene partners/playing love interests going forward—it is not accurate to say that they always believed (much less knew for a fact) that grissom and sara would wind up together in the end/become the flagship of the show, spanning all fifteen seasons and a movie/get married and live happily ever after, and particularly not from the beginning of the show.

sara was meant to be grissom's primary love interest from the beginning, yes—and certainly their dynamic was written with mutual feelings/interest on both sides.

however, "primary" does no mean "only," and neither does it necessarily mean "forever."

that so, before the character was really solidified, particularly in early s1, the writers had occasionally fitted grissom into some interim romances and tried to present him more as the archetypal "cad about town" than would later be the case.

they also, as the show progressed, sometimes teased and explored other romantic options for him than sara, mainly with heather kessler, writing those interactions in such a way that (had they wanted to, and particularly had the audience reacted favorably) they could have slotted heather in as grissom's "primary romantic option" rather than sara instead.

so for as much as sara was created to be grissom's love interest from the beginning and for as much as gsr was written as a romance (with feelings on both sides) from sara's first appearance on the show, gsr was not necessarily intended from the beginning to be endgame.

in the writers' views, it was one option of many potential ones—a main option, a consistent option, an option they poured a lot of narrative time and attention into developing over the course of the show's first three seasons, yes, but an option all the same; one possible choice among many.

it wasn't until s4, after billy and jorja's intercession, that they really decided to make gsr endgame, knocking all other possibilities off the table.

that choice on their parts was, of course, cemented in episode 04x12 "butterflied."

so.

getting back to your original question of "was grissom always written/acted as being in love with sara from the get-go or was he originally meant (prior to s4) to have been more uncertain?" here are my thoughts:

as established, both billy petersen and jorja fox knew from the beginning that their characters were meant to have some kind of romantic connection, and the writers were definitely conceiving of gsr that way.

it is also true that gsr was not intended to be one-sided; grissom was written and depicted as being an active participant from the beginning, just as sara was.

but as also established, the particulars of the connection between grissom and sara were very much "not pinned down."

it wasn't as if the writers wrote up a "gsr dossier" and handed it over to billy and jorja and said, "here is the entire history your characters share together, complete with notes about how exactly they feel about each other and what beats and nuances you should play with them going forward. also, you should know that we intend for them to eventually get married and be together forever, so make sure to foreshadow that as much as you can."

to the contrary: both billy and jorja have often spoken of the fact that given the preponderance of "blanks" in their character histories and how little information the writers gave them to go on regarding grissom and sara's past dynamic, they often consulted with each other to come up with what we fans might refer to as "headcanons" about what they believed had happened between grissom and sara in san francisco, as well as to make sense of what was currently going on between them at any given point during the early seasons of the show. they relied on each other to "get on the same page" and to create internal cohesion in their performances.

it wasn't something that was just handed to them.

they were also in the same boat as members of the audience when it came to wondering what the future held for grissom and sara as a couple while the show was still running.

while they knew their characters were romantically entangled, they didn't know to what end.

at the beginning, there was so much ship teasing.

but would grissom and sara ever get together? if they did, would the relationship be long-term?

they didn't know.

they were just going along with the story as it was being written.

and, as discussed above, the writers themselves didn't have some huge, overarching plan to start out with. they knew from the onset that sara was an emotional touchstone for grissom and someone he was deeply connected and attracted to, but they weren't necessarily married to the idea that grissom and sara would themselves get married.

as stated, "endgame gsr" was one possibility among many, and, particularly at the show's onset, when there were no guarantees of how long csi would even be on the air, it was a long-shot, far-off-into-the-future, we'll-get-there-if-we-get-there possibility at that.

there were a lot of moving parts in play and nothing was set in stone.

so.

all of the above being the case, can we say definitively that every second billy played grissom on screen, his intention as an actor was to depict grissom as being deeply in love with sara? can we say that he always fully understood grissom's motivations and knew that grissom was scared of the depths of his feelings for sara (as opposed to just being unsure of how to deal with her intensity)?

no.

while it's a safe bet to say billy was always aware that grissom and sara had history and that there was a possibility that they would eventually become a couple from the start, we can't say that he always knew exactly what was going on with them. there might very well have been times when he felt like the attraction was more one-sided or when he doubted anything would ever transpire between them; even when he perhaps thought that the writers might take grissom down other roads for romance instead (i.e., pair grissom with heather).

that said, did he, as an actor, nevertheless always seem to keep those initial notes on grissom and sara's connection "in his back pocket" so that grissom's emotional attachment to sara and attraction to sara played a consistent role in his characterization?

yes.

and did he regularly depict grissom emotionally reacting to sara (even if the nature of his reactions was more ambiguous), such that we as viewers can easily believe grissom's later claims that he has always been in love with sara when we view them from an in-universe perspective?

absolutely.

the facts that billy and jorja did come up with their own takes on gsr and talk through that "secret history" together and that billy so often ad-libbed some of the most romantic gsr lines ("since i met you," anyone?) and that billy did imbue grissom's reactions to sara with such emotion all strongly suggest that even if he didn't know for sure—based on a "word of god" dictum from the showrunners—what the exact nature of grissom and sara's relationship was or that they would for sure end up together, he was playing romance between them, and it was a consistent, deliberate acting decision on his part.

see, for example, his comments about his ad-lib of grissom calling sara "honey" in episode 03x22 "play with fire": "[the producers] said, ‘he can’t call her honey.’ but that’s exactly what would happen. he’s afraid for her—he’s afraid for everybody—but it is specifically for sara. he knows the stress she’s been under with him. with her shock, she doesn’t even know until later on that he called her honey. he doesn’t know that he called her honey. only the audience knows."

he may not have been able to say for sure, "i know sara is the love of grissom's life and that he's going to marry her someday, so i'm gonna play him that way in every episode." but he knew enough to recognize the importance of that connection and to consistently depict it, leaving the door for development open.

he also knew enough (along with jorja) to advocate for the continuance of the gsr romantic storyline at a time when the showrunners were doubtful of it.

and because he did, grissom's later in-universe claims that he's been in love with sara the whole time are emminently believable, regardless of what kinds of questions were being asked behind the scenes regarding the viability of gsr from a production standpoint.

so that's the thing: when i look at grissom and sara's story, i see nothing in it that contradicts the idea that they've been madly and mutually in love with each other since 1998—and, in fact, i think their story only really makes sense when viewed through that lens.

even for as indecisive and tempestuous as grissom can be about his relationship with sara in the early seasons, never for one second do i doubt that he has feelings for her.

there is no episode i can look at and go, "yeah, at this point, gsr was completely off the table. they just added it in later."

if grissom was just wholesale uncomfortable with sara's romantic attentions on him and not sure how to deal with them, then episodes like 01x10 "sex, lies, & larvae," 01x16 "too tough to die," 01x23 "the strip strangler," 02x05 "scuba doobie-doo," 02x15 "burden of proof," 02x16 "primum non nocere," 02x23 "the hunger artist" (which, lest we forget, explicitly features grissom seeking out sara while a love song plays), 03x02 "the accused is entitled," 03x09 "blood lust," 03x22 "play with fire," 04x03 "homebodies," and 04x07 "invisible evidence" would never have happened—or at least wouldn't have played out the way that they in canon do.

and mind you: all of those episodes take place before episode 04x12 "butterflied" stakes its claims to the longevity, singularity, and depths of grissom's love for sara.

in those episodes, grissom's romantic feelings for sara are all made main text—acknowledged not only through william petersen's acting choices but in dialogue, staging, and even through the show's soundtrack.

they are deliberately shown.

and what's more: nowhere in the show is grissom depicted as having that same sort of consistent, almost unavoidable emotional connection with anyone else, either.

though of course fans can and do argue about what he may feel for heather or even other potential love interests besides sara, the fact is that just by sheer volume and duration, his connection with sara is his longest, most intense relationship on the show by far.

even if one does believe he may at some point have feelings for heather (which, of course, i don't), it would always be a situation of "and" not "instead of" where sara in concerned.

his love for sara is a thread that runs through the whole tapestry of the show.

it's never the case that he stops having feelings for her in favor of having feelings for anyone else. he also never really moves on from her, even when he declines her romantic overtures at the end of s3.

so at the end of the day, though neither the showrunners nor the writers nor the actors may have known with surety from the beginning that sara would end up being grissom's one true love and the only woman he ever had any real feelings for, and while at various points during the production there definitely were other options they considered, what the show ends up actually depicting (all doylist intentions aside) is that sara is the object of grissom's heart from day 1.

it's not a retcon for the writers or grissom himself to say he has always been in love with sara, because there is consistent evidence of it, both internal and external to the show, from the start.

it's not something that was shoehorned in or decided upon long after the fact.

the option was there from the day jorja fox signed her contract.

and it was given consistent enough narrative attention, both by the writers and by the actors, that by the time it is explicitly stated, it doesn't at all "come out of nowhere" or contradict anything already established in the show. rather, it confirms what has already been implied for a very long time prior.

so tl;dr? while the showrunners may not necessarily have been sold on a gsr endgame from the start, that also isn't to say that they were against it, either, or that eventually "going there" went against their original intentions.

gsr had always been on the table, and billy, for his part, consummate knower of his character that he is, was always, from the beginning aware of that possibility and depicted grissom accordingly, leaving that door for a gsr romance open, so that now it seems very clear looking back that the love was there all along.

thanks for the question! please feel welcome to send another any time.

[tartarusknight]

What you need to know :)

Hello darling readers <3 I'm TartarusKnight or Knight of Tartarus! (they switch depending on availably honestly)

I'm here to chat, read, and write. That being said~~~~ come and message me anytime <3 questions, requests, and kind words make my day

This is an overview of my work just in case anyone is bored and wants something to read <3 (My Stranger Things work, honestly. I've also got some Marvel, Criminal Minds, and Teen Wolf but ST is my hyper fixation now soooo)

We're Not Perfect

This is a 4 part series in which Steve and Eddie knew each other before Steve ever got with Nancy Wheeler and before he learned about the Upside Down. It's heavily inspired by music <3 (Total Words 300,395) With Playlists because I can't stop <3 This story is my baby

Part 1 - It's the Start of Our Journey?

Pre-season 1 Steve Harrington and Eddie Munson are paired together in class and they learn they work well together. (Words 22,869)

Part 2 - I just want to go home

Set during Seasons 1-3, changing canon but the overarching story doesn't change too much. (Words 85,678)

Part 3 - say you'll live for me

Set in season 4, diverting from canon almost completely but with all the same characters. (Words 63,885)

Part 4 - I'll follow the beat of your heart

And the end. The final battle with Vecna and the epilogue aka season 5 <3 (Words 127,963)

Fool

Based on the song Fool by Djo.

Steve and Nancy get annoyed at Robin and Eddie for ignoring them when they're with their band. They decide to prove that they know music better than either Eddie or Robin thought. (Words 1,488)

I know you've been hurtin'

Based on the song Better Days by Dermot Kennedy and fanart by @babysitterpng

Steve has a plan. It involves a skirt, confidence, Nancy Wheeler's ability to do make-up, the party's anxiety, his parents, and Jason Carver's temper.

And well, Steve's pretty sure he has it in the bag. He might not be smart but he knows people and there's no way he's read any of them wrong. But maybe he'll learn more about himself as the plan unfolds (Words 7,205)

This dream isn't feeling sweet, we're reeling through the midnight streets

7 things that changed about Steve and Robin after Starcourt and 1 time they explained why. (Words 11,837)

I'm just gonna swim until you love me

Five times Steve had to prove he was worth love and One time someone just loved him without needing him to. (Words 8,612)

But when I touch her I feel like I'm cheating on you

Eddie is getting overwhelmed by the party just barging into his life without any warning after Spring Break. So, he makes a plan with an old friend of his. It works... in a way. (Words 1,932)

you're losing your memory now

Robin Buckley wasn't prepared for Steve to crash, but he had been pushing his limits for too long. He had a plan, but he never thought to tell her. He didn't want to worry her. Too bad she'll always worry about him... Especially when he collapses at work. (Words 17,784)

But Now We're Stressed Out

Eddie Munson knew he wasn't the smartest person. He never planned on college but he never planned for the Party either.

Title based on Twenty One Pilots - Stressed Out (Words 2,021)

I don't know what you're hunting. It's not me, it's something else

Steve looks over her face, “I'm not having any of you at my place. Did you see the map, no way?” He states and it's one part of his reasoning but not the main reason. “Then come stay with one of us,” Robin says and it feels more like a plead than anything.

He shakes his head and she looks angry now. “Stop whatever the fuck this is! We care about you! Let us in! We're safer in groups.” The words don't hurt as much as he thinks they should. “Not that much safer.” He spits back out and she blinks. “Max is as good as dead. Eddie is dead. And guess what! We were in groups!” The shouting makes his throat burn but he can't calm down.

A Halloween Special!!! Happy Horror season <3 (Words 22,620)

WIP - The Fallen King and the King of the Freak

Steve has to deal with the fallout of Season 2.

New nightmares, losing Nancy, kids who he's willing to die for, and Billy's new hatred towards him. He went from the top to the bottom in the school and he doesn't know how bad it is until Eddie Munson is the one that steps in to help him. And maybe he wants the help and maybe even some friends. (Words 150k and climbing <3)

[box-dwelling]

I don't know if I've elaborated on this specific headcanon on here but this is a hill I plan to die on and I keep instinctively referencing it when I write so here:

Apollo has canonically watched doctor who or at least the AA equivalent, he makes a reference to it about Trucy's panties. This is canon. However I personally choose to believe that he is a fan of the much derived classic serial Trial of a Time Lord and does in fact regularly force the people in his life to watch it with him in an attempt to get them to like his nerd shit because it's law themed. This predictably fails because it is one of the worst seasons in the shows 6 decade run and is at points barely watchable. But I do think that Apollo just gets too hyped about the fact it's two of his interests overlapping

I'm gonna put the context under the cut for this serial because it's less headcanon and more just my thoughts, but I you want me to talk about how bad I think one of my favourite characters taste is then enjoy

For those not in the know this serial is basically an entire season of the show with the overarching narrative of the Doctor being on trial with himself as the defense in the gallianan court to prove that he hasn't been breaking basically all their laws by interfering with the affairs of other planets. It features very silly costumes, questionable writing because the BBC was trying so hard to get the show canceled at this point in time, and Brian Blessed in yellow face.

Now I am probably one of the few dw fans that actually quite enjoys the idea of a court drama doctor who serial, a lot of people are opposed in concept alone as the drama of the episode is regularly cut away to court scenes of the doctor and the procecution (that's a whole ass can of worms I'm not getting into the valeyard) bickering. But I will concede that even I couldn't finish it. The companions are well, they're two of the worst ones the series has ever done. I enjoy Perri but god did the writers just want a random young woman to be in skimpy outfits and put very little thought into her beyond that. It's carried by the performance but my girl has nothing to work with, especially this season where they get rid of the fact that she and six have a pretty antagonistic relationship and she's just generic companion with no flavor. Mel is... Ok whenever I see a female character that a fan base seems to hate I do instinctively want to love her. I was sat there determined to like her but unfortunately this is one of the few times the fans are right. She's really grating and not interesting in the slightest. I really tried. I can't.

The story's are goodish, it's classic who fair. Nothing outstanding unless you're me and want to over think about Perris death. But the episode itself doesn't lend much to that idea beyond her performance. The pacing is rough with the interspersed trial sections and honestly the Doctors puns on the prosecutors name get old real quick and that is so so much of the trial sections.

[deadlysoupy]

i've figured it out. i connected the dots. i know why exactly the season finale was so underwhelming.

read this if you like literary analysis, this is as much of a testament to the show's storytelling as well as it's me trying my hand at pulling stories apart. i am not a professional writer, though i do consider myself a regular one, and i think that counts for something.

anyway, point 1: already established structure

so, in every story, there is a structure. it consists of arcs, and whether you have episodic storytelling or an overarching plot, there will be arcs. these acts are like rollercoasters: you get in, it's fine at first, chill, then you get some loops, kinda bumpy and scary, then it's calm again, more loops, add some leaps here and there, and when the attraction reaches it's final loop, it has to be the craziest shit you've experienced. and yes, you can argue that some rollercoasters don't have that structure, they're usually like that.

in Earthspark, there is the consistent rising of stakes (just bear with me for a recap): episode one - new siblings get kidnapped and almost dissected. low point. family saves them and takes in as their own - high point. episode nine and ten - people they care about get kidnapped (geez that's a lot of kidnappings), Megatron gets severely injured, Twitch almost sacrifices herself. very very low point. family comes to help, not abandoning their sibling, new Terrans are born, the bad guy is defeated. victory! episode seventeen and eighteen - questioning their place among humans, feeling like they don't truly belong anywhere, almost losing the person that has been there every step of the way, and getting mind controlled. super low point, even worse than before, which is very, very good. then, they regain confidence, the only thing that is important is family, and everything else will come with time. good, open ending. this should have been it.

to that i say this is an incredible story. delicious character growth, moments to prove themselves, to know who you are.

the finale didn't have the rollercoaster. it went down, sure, but not down enough - which brings me to the next point.

point 2: no internal conflict

now, just to clarify, internal conflict is what's happening in the character's brain, what's been bugging them this entire time, something they have to get over and heal from. external conflict is beyond their control - the whole Mandroid and GHOST sub-plots.

all previous two-parters felt connected to each character, to something they deeply cared about. where previously every external plot came crashing with internal one, creating new problems to solve, this one made a vital mistake of repeating the same plots to deal with (because their siblings getting kidnapped is not old by now!).

and the fact is, not one of the characters is doubting themselves in these episodes. this should have been their darkest moment, when they feel helpless, completely defeated. no one is tackling an internal problem in this finale. not outright. Twitch gets sad but then gets up just as quickly. if she was feeling like a failure in the beginning of the finale because of a bunch of shit happening at once, this would have been solved! the stakes are artificial, we know they can't kill everyone, because they're the main characters.

it's not about the Maltos anymore, which is why this is so sad to watch. Eathspark is about family. but if you call every single Cybertronian family, what's the value of your own beloved siblings and parents?

if this show focuses more on the new generation, then they should continue to explore them with only minor highlights into all of Cybertronian population. it's all over the place, wanting to appeal to the wider transformers audience, and to the people who came for the terrans - and missing both.

at least that's what i saw. if you think differently, if you saw something i didn't, please feel free to reply, reblog, and i welcome criticism. i am still learning the storytelling craft, but i know the rules. and this is NOT a way for me to say i hate Earthspark now, don't you dare put labels on this post. i analyse this show because i love it to death, but i accept it as it is, and learn from it. anyone who outright shits on Earthspark gets my fist in their mouth

[killerandhealerqueen]

Helloo! Good evening! (It's evening in my country 😁)

Can you suggest me some good bromance dramas with crime and investigation as main genre?

I watched S.C.I Mystery, Killer and Healer, The Devil Judge, Under the Skin and Sleuth of ming dynasty.

Can you suggest me some good bromance dramas? Chinese dramas are more preferred. But korean ones are also fine.

Thank you!

Have a nice day! 😊❤️

Hello! Oh, you absolutely came to the right blog about this particular question, as crime dramas are what I mainly watch!

As I can see, you've watched pretty much all the dramas that I would recommend for good bromance and good crime dramas. But I do have some others to recommend.

Cdramas

Master, Wait a Moment is a good one, though it is subbed by MangoTV so the subs are kinda...iffy. But if you can watch it without subs, then you should be golden. Love the bromance and it has a good overarching case, which we like. You will find one of the female love interests insufferable and unfortunately, that's the only downside but it's okay, you can just skip over her scenes if you really can't stand her.

Another good one is Psych-Hunter. Again, you will find the female lead insufferable (if you took her out the drama would still literally be the same, just minus all the dumb romance plot they had to throw in to pass censorship). But again, it's okay because the cases are interesting and the chemistry between the main leads is great. The ending though will fuck with your brain a little, so just be prepared for that.

Now, this isn't a bromance, but Couple of Mirrors is glorious. Supposedly they're working on a season 2 (because the ending of season one is very open ended) but oh man, oh man will you love these girlies. You'll hate Youyi's husband though and want to kill him every time he opens his mouth so...yeah. He's insufferable and I hate him.

Checkmate is another good bromance. If you've seen My Roommate is a Detective, then you'll know that it's the same main leads from that drama in this drama. I've never actually finished MRIAD because I could not stand the female lead (no seriously, I got through ten episodes before I had to drop it because of how much I hated the female lead) but I did finish Checkmate and I loved it. A few of the cases are based off of Agatha Christie's books, like Murder on the Orient Express. It's really good, good overarching case, lots of twists that you don't see coming...I enjoyed this one a lot

A League of Nobleman is also another good bromance, it's very interesting how the leads are tied together and the cases are quite fascinating.

Jiang Hu Shao Nian Jue is a short drama, with like 20 eps and each episode is short but if you like the dynamic of Chen Yuzhi and Jiang Yuelou or Bai Yutong and Zhan Yao, then you'll really enjoy this one

Pledge of Allegiance is another good bromance (there's like romance between one of the leads and the female lead but like...there's more chemistry between the main leads so bromance) but whoo boy will this one fuck you up a little. But it's got a lot of whump if you like that. And the cases are interesting

Desire Catcher is a lot like S.C.I. but darker. Ho my god, is this drama darker. But again, good overarching cases, the bromance is *chef's kiss* but be warned, there are two episodes that have sexual assault (not seen of course but you know what's going on in those scenes) and there's a scene where a character slit their wrist (on dramacool it's blurred but you can still see it and apparently on youku, it's not blurred at all) so just be warned. But would definitely recommend this one

Order of the Sommelier isn't a case drama, per se, but oh my god the bromance is so good. Again, if you like the dynamic of Jiang Yuelou and Chen Yuzhi, that's what these two give off and I was living for it while watching it. (Episodes are really short, so there's a complied movie on youtube that's like four hours long. However, you're going to have to go to either dramacool or kisskh to watch the last epi because the movie doesn't have an important scene towards the end)

Original Sin is another good drama to watch. The ending is open because we were supposed to have a season 2 but I don't know if that's ever going to happen. I fucking hope it does but...*sigh*

This will get long, so I'm putting the rest under the cut

Jdramas

I don't know if you like jdramas but if you do, here are some good ones

Doubles (I always recommend this one. It's one of my favorites)

Nippon Noir: Detective Y’s Rebellion (a little trippy, it fucks with your head but it's good and the cases are interesting)

Sherlock: The Untold Stories (Can't go wrong with a Sherlock adaptation. This is probably my favorite adaption of Sherlock, just because I really like the actors)

Chiisana Kyojin (very police procedural, corruption, the usual in most japanese crime/police dramas)

Aozora No Tomago (good/interesting crime drama, we love the bromance between the leads...it's a good one)

Where Do I Come From? (Boku wa Doko Kara) (if you like yakuza, this one is also a good one. And while this is like a crime drama, sort of, you're really more focused on the leads)

Rinshou Hanzai Gakusha Himura Hideo no Suiri and Rinshou Hanzai Gakusha Himura Hideo no Suiri SP (I really enjoyed these and I think you will too)

Cold Case 

Cold Case S2 

Cold Case S3

(These three are mainly just crime/cold case dramas. No bromance but the cases are interesting)

BG: Personal Bodyguard  

BG: Personal Bodyguard 2

(These two aren't crime dramas, per se, but the cases they take are interesting and the two leads are great. One of the leads is a main from Rinshou Hanazai Gakusha Himura Hideo no Suiri)

The Night Beyond the Tricornered Window (this one is based off of a manga and it's great. Love the actors and love the bromance (even though the manga/anime is BL)

Rasen no Meikyu: DNA Kagaku Sosa (a very science based crime drama but we love the leads and they argue like an old married couple. I think you'll enjoy it)

Bokura no Shokutaku (Not a crime drama, but the sweetest BL you will ever watch, if you haven't watched it already)

Kdramas

Missing Noir M (A good crime drama, open ending, cases are dark and a little fucked up but still good)

Tell Me What You Saw (this drama is dark and also fucked up, no bromance but the cases are good but do not watch this at night, it will fuck you up)

The Good Detective (S1&S2) oh I love the drama. It's a really good case drama and there is some bromance there. Second season is a lot more fucked up than season 1 but season 1 is still pretty angsty. But highly recommend

Beyond Evil (you need to watch this one. Need to. It's a must. It will fuck with your head and you will cry at the end but you will have been so glad you watched this)

Nobleman Ryu’s Wedding (cute, short BL. Definitely good)

The Guest (good drama, very dark, would not recommend watching at night if you don't like horror but the bromance is good)

Color Rush (another good BL)

You Make Me Dance (a BL that made me cry so...it's a good BL)

The Veil (no bromance but it's a great action/case drama. Will fuck with your head a little but I still recommend it)

Chimera (A mixture of the Devil Judge and Killer and Healer. Definitely something to watch)

Tinted With You (a really sweet BL)

Bad and Crazy (great case drama and great bromance)

Through the Darkness (I haven't finished the last 4 eps (i need to) but from what I've seen so far, I really enjoyed it. But holy shit, it's dark. It's dark. It's fucked up. You need to watch this during the day time do not watch it at night)

TWDramas

Danger Zone Season 1

Danger Zone Season 2

This is a great drama, love the bromance between the leads but again, it's dark. It's probably one of the darker dramas, up there with Tell Me What You Saw, Desire Catcher, and Through the Darkness. This isn't a drama you should watch at night because it's gruesome. And violent. But oh my god, it's so good

These are all the dramas I have to recommend, so I hope you enjoy anon!

[septembersghost]

tw for suicide but absolutely haunted (tho can also see it, everyone who has ever mattered to you is permanently gone) by Bob saying all the way back in s4 time that if Kim died, Jimmy would just kill himself instead of that whole metaphorical suicide he did for three seasons

i know i've written about this before, most specifically in regards to the contrast between nacho and chuck, but there is such a thematic ache in bcs in regards to suicide and self-destruction. and it's never (imho) exploitative or reductive, but there's this overarching examination of the self, and what the loss of that is, and how shifting identity and harm (outer and inner) can be eroding, and the way that either ruins you entirely, or the extraordinary and painful sacrifice it can take to reclaim your being, to stand for who you love. there's a fire and there's a bullet and there's a disappearance and there's a life sentence, and there's taking yourself apart in despair, and there's reconstructing something out of the wreckage, over and over again. it's a theme for many characters, really - jimmy as he retreats into the shell of saul, kim as she flees, chuck in his intransigence, gus in his revenge, mike in his resignation, nacho in both treachery and ascendance. in struggling with the ending, i've thought about how there is an element of nacho in it, though jimmy will never know or understand this. when i wrote that post last night i was considering it too. if there's life in the flower still blooming and there's love in the flame still burning, there's another connection there too, in giving up everything for the one person in the world who matters to you. nacho and jimmy both reassert their agency. and though nacho has to take his life to affirm it, jimmy still gives his in a different sense, he escapes the desert but there's something in...to be oneself and to have your true love, you have to break down that facade, and you have to surrender.

/tangent

anyway! yes, i completely believe and agree with the assessment that, had anything fatal happened to kim, jimmy could never have survived it. his slow metaphorical suicide dovetails with her own, but had she been met with deadly violence, he would never have been able to withstand it. it wouldn't have been a question, then, of saul, it would've very much been the clear evidence that he couldn't survive that. like he said! if anything happens to her, i can't do this. i did it for kim. he lived so often for her and made so many decisions (good and bad) around her, and ultimately would've died for her, and he still gave what he had left. for her.