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adorpheus · 4 years

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on fujoshi and fetishization

Lately, more and more, both here on tumblr and on other sites, I keep seeing people spew unfiltered hatred at fujoshi - that is, women who like mlm content such as gay fanfic and fanart featuring men with other men. And I don’t mean like a specific type of fujoshi, like the ones who are genuinely being weird about it, but just like a general hatred for girls (but especially straight identifying girls) who express love for gay romance.

I hate to break this to you all, but women (including straight women!) actually are allowed to like mlm fanfiction and fanart, even enthusiastically so. A woman simply expressing her love of gay fanfic, even if it is in kind of a cringey way or a way that you personally don’t like, is NOT automatically fetishization.

I’ve been on the receiving end of fetishization for my entire life, from a very young age, as many black and brown folx have, so I consider myself pretty well acquainted with how it works. Fetishization isn’t just like, being really into drawings of boys kissing, or whatever the fuck y’all are trying to imply on this god forsaken site.

Fetishization is complicated imo, and can encompass a lot of things, such as (but not limited to):

1 - dehumanization, e.g. viewing a group of people as sexual objects who exist purely for entertainment purposes, rather than acknowledging them as actual people who deserve respect and rights

and

2 - projecting certain assumptions onto said people based on their race/sexuality/whatever is being fetishized. These assumptions are often, but not always, sexual in nature (like the idea that black people in general are more sexual than other races, etc etc etc).

I’m going to use myself as an example to illustrate my point. Please note this isn’t the best or most nuanced example, but it is the most simplistic. A white person finding me attractive and respectfully appreciating my black features as part of what makes me beautiful is not, on its own, fetishization. A white person finding me attractive solely or mostly because I’m a PoC is now in fetishization territory. Similarly, assuming I’m dominant because of my blackness (like saying “step on me mommy” and shit like that) is hella fetishistic.

That being said, theres definitely a difference between how fetishization works in real life with real people, and how it shows up in fandom.

Fetishization manifests in many different ways in fandom, but most commonly on the mlm side of things, I personally see it appear as conservative (or centrist) women who love the idea of two men together, but don’t actually like gay people, and don’t necessarily think LGBT+ people deserve rights (or “special treatment” as its sometimes dog whistled). These women view queer men as sexual objects for entertainment rather than an actual group of people who deserve to be protected from systemic oppression. I’ve noticed that they often don’t even think of the men they “ship” together as actually being gay, and may even express disgust at the idea of a character in an mlm ship being headcanon’d gay. In case its not obvious, this is pretty much exactly the same way a lot of cishet men fetishize lesbians (they see “lesbian” as a porn category, rather than like, what actual LGBT people think of when we read the word lesbian). There’s a pretty popular viral tweet thread going around where someone explains seeing this trend of conservative women who like mlm stuff, and I have also personally witnessed this phenomenon myself in more than one fandom.

The funny thing is, maybe its just me buuuut.... The place I see this particular kind of fetishization happen most is not in the anime/BL fandom, from which the term fujoshi originates - I actually see these type of women way way more in western fandom spaces like Supernatural, Harry Potter, and Hannibal. I can’t stress this enough, there’s a shocking amount of people who are like, straight up trump supporters in these fandoms. If you want to experience it, try joining a Hannigram or Destiel group on facebook and you will probably encounter one eventually especially if you happen to be living through a major historical event. Like these women probably wouldn’t even be considered “fujoshi”, because that term doesn’t really apply to them given they aren’t in the BL/anime fandom, yet they’re the ones I personally see actually doing the most harm.

Of course this isn’t the ONLY kind of fetishizing woman in the mlm/BL world, there are other ways fetishization shows up, but this is the most toxic kind that I see.

A girl just being really into BL or whatever may be “cringe” to you, or she may be expressing her love for BL in a “cringey” way, but a straight woman really enjoying BL is not, on its own, somehow inherently fetishization. Yes, sometimes teenage girls act kind of cringe about how much they like BL and that might be annoying to you, but its not necessarily ~problematic~.

That being said, IT NEEDS BE REMARKED that a lot of the “fujoshi” that you all hate so deeply, are actually closeted trans men or nonbinary people who haven’t yet come to terms with their gender identity, or are otherwise just NOT cishet. I know because I was one of these closeted people for years, and I honestly think tumblr and the cultural obsession around purity is one of the many reasons I was closeted so deeply for so long. STORYTIME LOL!!! In my early adolescence, I was a sort of proto “fujoshi”. I identified as a bi girl who was mostly attracted to men, or as most (biphobic) people called it, “practically straight”. I wrote and read “slash” fanfic and looked at as well as drew my own fanart. We didn’t use the term fujoshi back then, but that’s definitely how I could have been described. I was obsessed with yaoi, BL, whatever you want to call it, to a cringe-inducing degree. I really struggled to relate to most het romances, so when I first discovered yaoi fanfics (as we called them at the time), I fell in love and felt like I finally found the type of romance content that was made for me. I didn’t know exactly why, I just knew it hit different. LGBT+ fanart and fanfiction brought me an immense amount of joy, and I didn’t really think too hard about why.

At some point, in my early 20s, after reading lots of discourse™ here on tumblr and other places like twitter, I started to get the sinking feeling that my passion for gay fanfiction was ~problematic~. I had always felt a sense of guilt for being into mlm content, because literally anyone who found out I liked BL (especially the men I dated) shamed me for liking it all the fucking time (which btw is literally just homophobic, like can we talk about that?). In addition to THAT bullshit, now I’m seeing posts telling me that girls who like BL are cringey gross fetishists who inspire rage and should go die?

Let me tell you, I internalized the fuck out of messages like this. I desperately wanted to avoid being ~problematic~. At the time, I thought being problematic was like the worst thing you could be. I was terrified of being “cancelled”, before canceling was even really a thing. I thought to myself, “oh my god, I’m gross for liking this stuff? I should stop.” I beat myself up over this. I wanted so badly to be accepted, and to be deemed a Good Person by the internet and society at large.

I tried to shape up and become a good ally (lmfao). I stopped writing fanfic and deleted all the ones I was working on at the time. I made a concerted effort to assimilate into cishet culture, including trying to indulge myself more deeply in the few fandoms I could find that had het content I did enjoy (Buffy, True Blood, Pretty Little Liars, etc). I would occasionally look at BL/fanfic/etc in private, but then I would repress my interest in it and not look for a while. Instead I would look at women in straight relationships, and create extremely heterosexual Couple Goals pinterest boards, and try to figure out how I could become more like these women, so I, too, could be loved someday.

This cycle of repression lasted like eight years. Throughout it all, I was performing womanhood to the best of my ability and trying to become a woman that was worthy of being in a relationship. I went in and out of several “straight” relationships, wondering why they didn’t make me feel the way reading fanfic did. Most of all, I couldn’t figure out why straight intimacy didn’t work for me. I just didn’t enjoy it. I always preferred looking at or making gay fanfiction/fanart over actual intimacy with men in real life.

Eventually, I stumbled upon a trans coming out video that someone I was following posted online, my egg started to crack, and to make an extremely long story short, after like 3 years of introspection and many gender panic attacks that I still experience to this day, I realized that I’m uh... MAYBE... NOT CIS..!? :|

I truly believe if I had just been ALLOWED TO LIKE GAY STUFF WITHOUT BEING SHAMED FOR IT, I probably would have realized I was trans way way sooner. Because for me, indulging in my love of gay romance and writing gay fanfic wasn’t me being a weirdo fetishist, it was actually me exploring my own gender identity. It is what helped me come to terms with being a nonbinary trans boy.

Not everyone realizes they are trans at age 2 or whatever the fuck. Sometimes you have to go through a cringey fujoshi phase and multiple existential crises to realize how fucking gay you are AND THATS FINE.

And one more thing - can we just be real here?

A lot of anti-fujoshi sentiment is literally just misogyny. omg please realize this. Its “women aren’t allowed to enjoy things” but, like... with gay fanfics. Some of the anti-fujoshi posts I see come across my dash are clearly ppl projecting a caricature they invented in their head of a demonic fujoshi fetishist onto any woman who expresses what they consider to be a little too much enthusiasm for gay content and then using their perception of that individual as an excuse to justify their disdain for any women, especially straight women, ‘invading’ their ~oh so exclusive~ queer fandom spaces.

god get over yrselfs this is gatekeeping by another name

idk why i spent so long writing this no one is even going to read it, does anyone even still use this site

*EDIT: HOLY SHIT WHEN DOING RESEARCH FOR THIS POST I FOUND OUT THAT Y-GALLERY IS BACK OMG!!!

#rant #fujoshi #I SAID WHAT I SAID #personal #gender stuff

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ginmo · 4 years

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...This response took me a million years, because there’s so much textbook abuse and mislabeling that I was like where do I even fucking start and how do I come at this. I’m still not happy with my approach but here we go. Sorry. This is going to be long.

Why do people abuse?

Domestic violence and abuse stem from a desire to gain and maintain power and control over an intimate partner. Abusive people believe they have the right to control and restrict their partners, and they may enjoy the feeling that exerting power gives them. They often believe that their own feelings and needs should be the priority in their relationships, so they use abusive tactics to dismantle equality and make their partners feel less valuable and deserving of respect in the relationship. [x]

Abuse is habitual. Everyone on the planet has either intentionally or unintentionally done an abusive act, emotionally or physically, in one of their relationships at some point in their life, but that doesn’t mean that relationship was abusive or that the pair was mutually abusive.

It’s also not uncommon for an abusive relationship to have a degree of abuse from both parties involved. Many victims will unconsciously do something abusive as an attempt to bring balance to the relationship and gain some control, but those incidents are isolated and not “habitual,” which puts them in the overall victim category.

In this abusive relationship:

Jaime is the main victim. Cersei is the main abuser. There’s nothing “mutual” about it.

“lmaoooo Jaime CHOSE to be in this relationship”

I’m aware that GRRM probably intended Jaime to totally jump in 100% by his choice, but that doesn’t change the fact that literally every person in an abusive relationship appears to have chosen to remain in that relationship. Hell, I knew my abuser was abusive before I even got into a relationship with him, but I did it anyway because, man, he was charming and persuasive. He unconsciously used that charm, manipulation, and seduction to keep me hooked while chipping away at my identity. Victims of abuse all have a choice, in theory, but the reality of it is messy, because there’s manipulation at play and a great degree of delusion.

Cersei is guilty of narcissistic abuse.

It’s perfectly valid to view Cersei as a narcissist. She obviously isn’t diagnosed with anything, but I’m reading her as a textbook narcissist so… let’s play. Before I dive into all the abuse, I’m going to dig into Cersei’s narcissism, because it plays into the interpretation of their dynamic.

“You can argue, well, does she genuinely love her children, or does she just love them because they’re her children? There’s certainly a great level of narcissism in Cersei. She has an almost sociopathic view of the world and civilization.” (Also look up: malignant narcissism and sociopathy)

GRRM then immediately makes a comparison to Jaime, contrasting their abilities to love.

“At the same time, what Jaime did is interesting.”

He goes on to describe Jaime’s action of pushing Bran, implying he did it out of genuine love for others (since he used the word genuinely for Cersei and then compared). [x]

“LMAO BUT JAIME IS A NARCISSIST TOO”

No lmfao. Someone can appear narcissistic at times and swing on that spectrum, but that doesn’t make them a narcissist or show they have “a great level of narcissism.” One of the main defining characteristics of a narcissist is a lack of empathy. I’m not even going to dig up all of the empathy examples, because the above comparison from GRRM should be enough to tell you he isn’t writing Jaime as a narcissist and going that route would take this way off topic. Just… read his chapters lol. You don’t even have to get far into his POVs to see empathy and how his thought process is intentionally written to be different than Cersei’s.

Anyway, my level of sympathy for Cersei is entirely wrapped around her narcissism. To me, what’s sad here is the idea she can’t experience true intimacy and is completely unaware of it. She loves Jaime, and I truly believe she believes she loves Jaime, but in reality it’s only at the capacity that narcissism allows.

Narcissistic Abuse:

“Narcissists don’t really love themselves. Actually, they’re driven by shame. It’s the idealized image of themselves, which they convince themselves they embody, that they admire. But deep down, narcissists feel the gap between the façade they show the world and their shame-based self. They work hard to avoid feeling that shame.

Many of the narcissist’s coping mechanisms are abusive — hence the term, “narcissistic abuse.” [x]

I mean… that’s kinda sad? I feel for her in that sense, but, as the article says, “Abuse is abuse, no matter the abuser’s diagnosis.”

Needs to Look Like Her

There are several examples of Cersei commenting on his changed appearance and how she doesn’t like it. That isn’t too weird, since people have their own personal preferences and hey, maybe she just doesn't like beards? But no. That’s not the case. She doesn’t like the changes, because it means he looks less like her. It 100% is about Jaime being male Cersei - an extension of herself.

“Nor did Jaime help her mood when he turned up all in white and still unshaven, to tell her how he meant to keep her son from being poisoned. - AFFC

“his face was thinner, with hollows under his eyes and lines he did not remember. I don’t look as much like Cersei this way. She’ll hate that.” - ASOS

(and lol so tempted to go into how Jaime’s facial hair is symbolic of his identity shift and how that relates to the separation with his twin).

“Jaime likes looking like Cersei too”

Oh does he? If that’s still so then why isn’t he shaving his beard for her?

Has he ever been disgusted by her looks? Does he ever look at siblings and get irritated if he thinks they look more alike? When he noticed his change in appearance did he think, “I hate that we look different” or did he think, “Cersei will hate that”...? (Also, when he thinks that he would be Cersei in fucking ASOS - *pre-handchop which is pre-arc-* that’s a laughably obvious set up for the identity aspect of his arc with that belief being destroy, you dense- ...*deep breath* moving on)

I’m sure he romanticized the looks to an extent, but it’s been made clear that it’s far more important to Cersei than it is to him, since she often makes note of his change in appearance. This is even shown in a scene where Cersei is observing Loras and Margaery and getting annoyed that they look more like twins than she and Jaime do.

For some context, Cersei was watching them dance.

“They could be twins, Cersei thought as she watched them. Ser Loras was a year older than his sister, but they had the same big brown eyes, the same thick brown hair falling in lazy ringlets to their shoulders, the same smooth unblemished skin. A ripe crop of pimples would teach them some humility. Loras was taller and had a few wisps of soft brown fuzz on his face, and Margaery had a woman’s shape, but elsewise they were more alike than she and Jaime.

That annoyed her too. -AFFC”

Narcissistic abuse includes emotional and physical and is used as an umbrella term for the two when they’re done by a narcissist, therefore slightly changing the context of the abuse.

I’m not going to pretend that GRRM sat down with a sexual narcissist checklist, created from the hours of research through his dinosaur computer, BUT he clearly is aware of basic narcissistic and abusive dynamics. It’s… really not that hard. And even if you don’t think he consciously did it, her behaviors are still aligned.

“LmAo CeRsEi’S ‘EvIL VaGiNa’ - MiSoGyNiStS!”

…manipulation through sex is an actual fucking thing that’s genderless.

Right lmfao this is going to be long.

“A sexual narcissist is a person who uses sex as a tool to emotionally manipulate their victims to get what they want.”

People admit that she uses sex as a tool to get stuff done, claiming its her form of power in the patriarchy. What they fail to consider is that Cersei does this frequently to Jaime - a person who is meant to be her lover - which… makes him a victim of narcissistic abuse. Don’t believe me?

I’m going to be using this article to break apart sexual narcissism. If you want more just research. They all pretty much say the same thing, but I chose this one because I prefer the structure. The article breaks examples into categories:

Sex is used to manipulate/persuade

Excessive focus on physical over emotional

You Exist to Serve the Narcissist’s Needs

Constantly Puts You Down

Reacts Negatively When You Don’t Give Them What They Want

Treats You Poorly / Neglects You After Sex

Infidelity, Violence, and Sexual Addiction

This whole post has been a nightmare to organize. Tbh most of the examples I’ll use fall under MULTIPLE categories. The scenes are like fucking Russian dolls of abuse. Or like… Abuse Inception. Abuse within abuse within abuse, so I had to just pick and choose which ones to put where.

Charming and Romantic – But with a Catch

“Many sexual narcissists can come across as alluring and attractive, especially during the initial stages of a relationship, when they’re trying to win you over. Like a master salesperson, they use charisma to get your attention, flattery to make you feel special, seduction (flirting, gifts, dinners, get-aways, etc.) to lift you off your feet, and persuasion to get you to give them what they want. Some sexual narcissists are very good in bed (at least they think they are), for sex is used as a tool to impress, entrap, and manipulate.

While there’s absolutely nothing wrong inherently with being charming, romantic, and a good lover, the narcissist crafts these traits in order to use others. He or she is not really interested in you, but only what he wants to extract from you (often to fulfill an inner emptiness due to the inability to create true intimacy).”

You can even find some meta that almost word for word says what’s described above, but they erase her doing this to Jaime - her partner- and frame these actions as feminist lol.

Eel Alley.

“But,” Jaime said, “there’s Casterly Rock …”

“Is it a rock you want? Or me?”

She then starts to seduce him to show him what he can have, to have the scale weigh in her favor. Manipulation through sex.

“He remembered that night as if it were yesterday. They spent it in an old inn on Eel Alley, well away from watchful eyes. Cersei had come to him dressed as a simple serving wench, which somehow excited him all the more. Jaime had never seen her more passionate. Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.” - AFFC

There's no indication whatsoever that Jaime had any intent to NOT wed and be Lord of Casterly Rock. He wasn’t really into Lysa but he never straight up refused to take on the role he was born into. In fact, he even kinda fancied Catelyn lol.

“Lord Hoster kept me for a fortnight whilst mulling his reply, and sat me beside his daughter Lysa at every meal.”

“Small wonder you took the white. I’d have done the same.”

“Oh, Lysa was not so fearsome as all that.” She had been a pretty girl, in truth; dimpled and delicate, with long auburn hair. Timid, though. Prone to tongue-tied silences and fits of giggles, with none of Cersei’s fire. Her older sister had seemed more interesting, though Catelyn was promised to some northern boy, the heir of Winterfell …”

And lol

“but at that age, no girl interested Jaime half so much as Hoster’s famous brother, who had won renown fighting the Ninepenny Kings upon the Stepstones.” - AFFC

He doesn’t even say, “but at that age, no girl interested Jaime so much as Cersei.” No. The Blackfish. Had Catelyn been unbetrothed, it’s not a stretch to think that Jaime would have been entertained by the idea of their betrothal. This was before Cersei seduced him at Eel Alley.

“hE GaVe HiS ConSenT”

Yeah, after she manipulated him through sex LOL. IT’S RIGHT THERE.

“Jaime always wanted to join the KG!”

“He had joined the Kingsguard for love, of course”.-ASOS

(HEY! Just like that tall, blonde, “beauty” he’s been hanging out with HHMM)

He wasn’t going to join the KG before Cersei gave him “love,” which is why he was asking about Casterly Rock and talking about Tywin, as if this was an idea he hadn’t thought of before. (Knight and KG are not synonymous). He joined “for love” AFTER she gave him intimacy, showing him what he could have if he agreed to stay by her side forever.

She even murdered Melara -HER FRIEND- for saying she wanted to marry Jaime one day. She kept trying to rob Jaime of a life outside of her, and yes I use the word “rob,” because it was through narcissistic abuse. She literally turned up the passion and kept waking him up with sex until he gave his consent.

And “by morning” Casterly Rock was “a small price to pay.” A SMALL PRICE TO PAY. That means it was worth something of value to him and then “by morning,” after she woke him up over and over and over until he agreed, it became a “small price.”

Also keep in mind that when Cersei was begging Jaime to join the KG to be close to her, she was legitimately crushing hard on Rhaegar not long before... she’s allowed to fantasize about marriage with Rhaegar, but Jaime isn’t allowed to fit his role and marry?

“once she had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight about his chest. When Jaime had discovered it she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys. [...] By night the prince played his silver harp and made her weep. When she had been presented to him, Cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes. He has been wounded, she recalled thinking, but I will mend his hurt when we are wed. Next to Rhaegar, even her beautiful Jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy. The prince is going to be my husband, she had thought, giddy with excitement, and when the old king dies I’ll be the queen.” -AFFC

Like… fuck…

Later on, when Jaime is developing into his own being and becoming aware of the bs, the Eel Alley scene is brought up again.

“Cersei.” He spoke slowly, like a man waking from a dream, still wondering where he was. “What hour is it?”

“The hour of the wolf.” His sister lowered her hood, and made a face. “The drowned wolf, perhaps.” She smiled for him, so sweetly.”

There’s the use of charm. Normally you could argue that she was honestly happy to see him. But what does she say next and what does he associate with that encounter?

“Do you remember the first time I came to you like this? It was some dismal inn off Weasel Alley, and I put on servant’s garb to get past Father’s guards.”

“I remember. It was Eel Alley.” She wants something of me. “Why are you here, at this hour? What would you have of me?” His last word echoed up and down the sept, mememememememememememe, fading to a whisper. For a moment he dared to hope that all she wanted was the comfort of his arms.”

And he wasn’t wrong. She did want something from him. So no. It’s not in his head.

“Jaime, Kevan has refused me. He will not serve as Hand [...] “You must be Tommen’s Hand.” -AFFC

This time he realizes what she’s doing. Using her outfit, she’s causing a recall to a past manipulative event that worked, exposing her intent, which is why Jaime immediately recognizes it as something she wants from him. This also implies that he now views their encounter at Eel Alley as Cersei wanting something of him since the two encounters were directly associated.

Here’s another moment of manipulation by a sexual narcissist.

“My sister wanted the girl to lose a hand. The old penalty, for striking one of the blood royal. Robert told her she was cruel and mad. They fought for half the night … well, Cersei fought, and Robert drank. Past midnight, the queen summoned me inside.”

Failing to get Robert to side with her and do something, she then summoned Jaime to give him the attention she knows he wants. You see where I’m going here?

“The king was passed out snoring on the Myrish carpet. I asked my sister if she wanted me to carry him to bed. She told me I should carry her to bed, and shrugged out of her robe. I took her on Raymun Darry’s bed after stepping over Robert. If His Grace had woken I would have killed him there and then. He would not have been the first king to die upon my sword … but you know that story, don’t you?” He slashed at a tree branch, shearing it in half. “As I was fucking her, Cersei cried, ‘I want.’ I thought that she meant me, but it was the Stark girl that she wanted, maimed or dead.” The things I do for love. - AFFC

This isn’t Jaime interpreting the incident incorrectly. This is character growth.

GRRM is speaking through Jaime by destroying the illusion and becoming aware of the reality he has been living. Because the lights are turning on for him, the things I do for love can take on a new meaning here. It’s more like the things I do to earn intimacy. He’s jogging down memory lane and realizing that every time (shown or told about in the books) she approached him she was trying to get something from him or trying to get him to agree with her. There was always a motive apart from a genuine desire to give and receive love, no strings attached.

Excessive Focus on Physical Over Emotional

“The sexual narcissist’s style of love-making is often focused on appearance and image, with a keen dislike for flaws and weaknesses from oneself or the partner. The love-making is less about two human beings connecting, and more about measuring up to idealized expectations. Try as the sexual narcissist might at physical grandiosity, there’s inevitably something missing in their performance: genuine human emotions.”

Mm yes.Going back to this as an example:

“his face was thinner, with hollows under his eyes and lines he did not remember. I don’t look as much like Cersei this way. She’ll hate that.” - ASOS

“The Targaryens wed brother to sister for three hundred years, to keep the bloodlines pure. And Jaime and I are more than brother and sister. We are one person in two bodies. We shared a womb together. He came into this world holding my foot, our old maester said. When he is in me, I feel … whole.” - AGOT

“I need you. I need my other half.” He could hear the rain pattering against the windows high above. “You are me, I am you. I need you with me. In me. Please, Jaime. Please.” - AFFC

People use Cersei’s romanticized twin comments as evidence to show that she genuinely loves Jaime. This also can connect to the GRRM quote mentioned above about her genuine love capabilities which can be argued as “lol no”.

She does not have “genuine human emotions,” because her words and feelings are from a narcissistic desire to be whole through the idea that Jaime is an extension of herself. So… yeah, if she thinks Jaime is herself as a male (“you are me, I am you”), then she’s missing half of her until he’s inside her, making her whole. Her, her, her, her.

Also, that’s a move to try to strip him of his own identity, his own person, and is a fucking massive red flag that this is how the relationship began. Does he ever try to persuade her to do shit by reminding her that they’re the same person? Like ffs.

She does this while trying to manipulate him using sex. He’s not listening to her, so she begs him to be inside her. Hey, why not? We’ve seen this work before.

“Every time he went to sleep, she woke him again. By morning Casterly Rock seemed a small price to pay to be near her always. He gave his consent, and Cersei promised to do the rest.” - ASOS

You Exist to Serve the Narcissist’s Needs.

“After the initial courtship period during which he or she tries to impress and please, a sexual narcissist may begin to demand that you cater primarily to his own selfish needs. He may expect you to be “on call”

Okay I bolded that “on call” bit, because she does go to him when she wants something, and then gets hella mad when he refuses. But I know some people will use this to be like BuT JaImE TaKeS hEr WhEn He WaNts and like.. Yeah, fair enough, you can make that argument, but… that’s leaving out context. He goes to her because she’s withholding intimacy and only initiates when she wants something from him. I’m going to play devil’s advocate and say it does fit. Remember what I said in the beginning that it’s not uncommon for victims to act in ways that are problematic (hate that word) to try to get back some control? Yeah. Apply this here. His unhealthy response is a reaction to her using intimacy as a tool.

“and satisfy sexual desires at his pleasure, require you to engage in sexual acts which only he enjoys [doesn’t really apply], or demand that you limit your other activities to be more available. Rather than being an individual with your own thoughts, feelings and priorities. The sexual narcissist expects you to exist merely as an extension of his or her wishes. ”

Cersei resents Jaime for disagreeing with her and thinking on his own. Literally the “you are me” bs and how she gets really angry when he begins to challenge her and goes against her wishes. She views him as someone who needs to cater to her, All he’s doing for her to slap and throw nasty words and cups at him is just... not doing what she asks him to do... his existence in Cersei’s life is simply to cater to her.

Constantly Puts You Down

“In order to put up a facade of superiority, and disguise hidden insecurity and inadequacy, some narcissists will constantly put other people down, to boost their own desirability and acceptability. In a sexual relationship, some (but not all) narcissists may also target their partners for ridicule, blame, shame, sarcasm, and overall marginalization. By subjecting the partner to an inferior psychological position, the narcissist is able to exercise a greater degree of dominance and manipulation.”

I mean… Do I really need to provide examples here? This is actually similar to the next one, so I’m going to put my examples there.

Reacts Negatively When You Don’t Give Them What They Want

“Since many sexual narcissists can't stand disappointment or rejection, they will frequently react negatively when you don’t give them what they want, in the way they want it. Some of the common responses include:

Anger – Tantrum. Negative judgment. Personal attacks. Ridicule.

Passive-Aggression – The cold shoulder. The silent treatment. Withhold of love and affection [which ties in to withholding intimacy examples I provided above]. Sarcasm. Calculated separation.

Emotional Coercion – Blame. Guilt trip. Calling the partner ungrateful. Threaten to withhold love and intimacy (such as it is). Pretend narcissistic victimhood.

None of these responses are those of a mature, reasonable adult. The sexual narcissist, by acting like a petulant child or a bully, hopes the drama and manipulation will hook you back in, so you’ll once again “belong” to him or her.”

Some of this is physical abuse too, so I’m sticking those under here. And yes, slapping counts as physical abuse and it doesn’t matter who the hell does it.

“Rule? I said naught of ruling. I shall rule until my son comes of age.”

“I don’t know who I pity more,” her brother said. “Tommen, or the Seven Kingdoms.” She slapped him. Jaime’s arm rose to catch the blow, cat-quick … but this cat had a cripple’s stump in place of a right hand. Her fingers left red marks on his cheek. - AFFC

Keep in mind that every time Jaime’s reflex goes to his face to block a blow it’s a sign that this is a behavior he’s used to. Sometimes people use the, “I don’t know who I pity more” line as well for “mutual abuse.” Context and… where’s the lie? Lmao.

Most of the time he’s being straight with her. Snarky ass? Sure. Abusive? No. Intent is key. She puts him down to shame him and attempts to decrease his self-worth. This is a control move, because she throws cruel words at him when she is unsuccessful in getting what she wants. He sometimes calls her a fool and one time asks if she’s drunk or stupid, because she’s legit spiraling into a paranoia and he’s going wtf lol. He’s not trying to make her dependent on him through the use of his poor language.

Anyway, back to physical.

Jaime felt his anger rising. “True, Loras does not leer at your teats the way Ser Osmund does, but I hardly think—”

“Think about this.” Cersei slapped his face. Jaime made no attempt to block the blow.

“I see I need a thicker beard, to cushion me against my queen’s caresses.” He wanted to rip her gown off and turn her blows to kisses. He’d done it before, back when he had two good hands.”

People love to use this against Jaime. Ffs. He’s literally trying to fucking defend himself from physical abuse by trying to diffuse the situation through sex, turning “blows to kisses.” This is one of those messy situations where it’s a victim trying to gain back control in an unhealthy, arguably abusive way. Does that make them anywhere near “mutually” abusive as if they’re 50/50? LMFAO no.

“Would Your Grace honor her white knight with a dance?” She gave him a withering look. “And have you fumbling at me with that stump? No. I will let you fill my wine cup for me, though. If you think you can manage it without spilling.” - AFFC

She turns him down with her disgust over his missing hand and then allows him to fill her cup I-

“Get out, I said. I am sick of looking at that ugly stump of yours. Get out!” To speed him on his way, she heaved her wine cup at his head. She missed, but Jaime took the hint.” - AFFC

Alright this big one…

WST:

“You mustn’t let Father take him from me. Jaime, please.

“I can talk to him, but he will not listen …”

“He will if you agree to leave the Kingsguard.”

“I’m not leaving the Kingsguard.” His sister fought back tears.

“Jaime, you’re my shining knight. You cannot abandon me when I need you most! He is stealing my son, sending me away … and unless you stop him, Father is going to force me to wed again!”

Guilt tripping and playing up the loving language.

Also, off topic, but I just want to point out that it’s funny Cersei came to him in Eel Alley to persuade him to join the KG to be with her. Jaime said they can’t get Tywin’s approval, so then she fucks him all night and he agrees. They played as lovers before that moment, but that was the night that sealed their affair to one another, to remove himself off the market and stay by her side forever. In this scene, she’s coming to him to ask him to LEAVE the KG, knowing Tywin would approve, and when he’s questioning the idea she tries to have sex with him, BUT he refuses her so her plan doesn’t work, making this moment the solid beginning of their downfall lmao. The opposite of Eel Alley.

“It makes no matter who they wed me to, I want you at my side, I want you in my bed, I want you inside me. Nothing has changed between us.”

Increasing the level of manipulation through intimacy since her previous persuasive strategy wasn’t working.

“Let me prove it to you.” She pushed up his tunic and began to fumble with the laces of his breeches. Jaime felt himself responding.

“No,” he said, “not here.” They had never done it in White Sword Tower, much less in the Lord Commander’s chambers. “Cersei, this is not the place.”

“You took me in the sept. This is no different.”

She drew out his cock and bent her head over it. Jaime pushed her away with the stump of his right hand. “No. Not here, I said.” He forced himself to stand. For an instant he could see confusion in her bright green eyes, and fear as well. Then rage replaced it.

Angry reaction due to refusal of sex. Childish reaction from not getting what she wants which quickly turns into bullying.

Cersei gathered herself together, got to her feet, straightened her skirts. “Was it your hand they hacked off in Harrenhal, or your manhood?” As she shook her head, her hair tumbled around her bare white shoulders. “I was a fool to come. You lacked the courage to avenge Joffrey, why would I think that you’d protect Tommen? Tell me, if the Imp had killed all three of your children, would that have made you wroth?”

Lol people thinking she was there to hang out with him. She admits to only being in there to ask something of him. “I was a fool to come.” Don’t miss out on the angry, nasty response because she was rejected and couldn’t use her favorite go-to manipulation tactic.

“You great golden fool. He’s lied to you a thousand times, and so have I.” [...]

“You had best go, Cersei. You’re making me angry.”

“Oh, an angry cripple. How terrifying.” She laughed. “A pity Lord Tywin Lannister never had a son. I could have been what he wanted, but I lacked the cock. And speaking of such, best tuck yours away, brother. It looks rather sad and small, hanging from your breeches like that.”

She’s trying to establish superiority by attempting to break him down, using his disability against him and attacking his manhood.

More?

“Gold? Or silver?” Cersei plucked a hair from beneath his chin and held it up. It was grey. “All the color is draining out of you, brother. You’ve become a ghost of what you were, a pale crippled thing. And so bloodless, always in white.” She flicked the hair away. “I prefer you garbed in crimson and gold.” - AFFC

I mean…I think that’s enough.

lol jk

“Tell him what has happened, and write … write …”

“Yes, Your Grace?” She licked her lips, shivering. “Come at once. Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once.”

“As you command. ‘I love you’ thrice?”

“Thrice.” She had to reach him. “He will come. I know he will. He must. Jaime is my only hope.”

“My queen,” said Qyburn, “have you … forgotten? Ser Jaime has no sword hand. If he should champion you and lose …”

We will leave this world together, as we once came into it. “He will not lose. Not Jaime. Not with my life at stake.” - AFFC

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SHE

FUCKING

THOUGHT

ABOUT

HOW TO WORD IT

TO GET HIM TO COME BACK

SHE CONSCIOUSLY, FORMULATED A PLAN TO WRITE “I LOVE YOU”

SPECIFICALLY THREE TIMES

TO “REACH HIM.”

SHE. LITERALLY. ADMITS. TO MANIPULATING HIM. THROUGH EMOTIONS.

“Come at once,” she said. “Help me. Save me. I need you now as I have never needed you before. I love you. I love you. I love you. Come at once.”

Vyman was hovering by the door, waiting, and Jaime sensed that Peck was watching too. “Does my lord wish to answer?” the maester asked, after a long silence. A snowflake landed on the letter. As it melted, the ink began to blur. Jaime rolled the parchment up again, as tight as one hand would allow, and handed it to Peck.

“No,” he said. “Put this in the fire.”-AFFC

And Jaime had so much character growth by that point that IT DIDN’T FUCKING WORK LMAO. Her game isn’t working anymore. And not only is she trying to manipulate him through loving words, she’s also NOT GIVING A FUCK ABOUT HIS LIFE OUTSIDE OF HERSELF, because she’s acknowledging that if she’s going down then she’s taking him with her. T

he loving thing to do would be, “Jaime, I won’t allow you to be my champion. You’re missing your good hand and can’t win. I don’t want to be the one to cause your death.” But Cersei never gave a shit about his life outside of her so... not a shocker. (Also I just lmao that around the same time Cersei is trying to get Jaime to come back for his death sentence, Brienne is out there willing to literally hang by a noose to save him. Great contrast.)

On to Jaime…

I did a bit of research to see why the fuck people think Jaime is abusive towards Cersei. Almost all of the examples involve their type of sex play, his thoughts (WHAT LMAO), and… not understanding the difference between toxicity and abuse. Abuse is always toxic, but toxicity isn’t always abusive.

I’ve been in both an abusive and toxic relationship and the difference was that my partner in the toxic one wasn’t trying to establish constant control through various different methods. He wasn’t using me for his own gain or trying to make me feel like garbage about myself. He didn’t become physical when I went against him. In my non-abuse toxic one, we were like each other’s “drug.” Extreme highs and lows, propping each other up on a pedestal, losing ourselves within the relationship by wrapping our happiness around the other. The twins are definitely toxic, mutually, but some of Jaime’s unhealthy behaviors are confused with abuse and, ironically, his more questionable actions stem from Cersei’s abuse on him.

Quoting this again since it’s like a million pages up:

Why do people abuse?

There is a difference between UNHEALTHY/TOXIC and ABUSIVE.

Don’t come at me about the patriarchy being the reason why Cersei can’t be abusive towards Jaime (yes… I’ve actually seen that hot take). Within their own personal dynamic, Cersei has power over Jaime just by the nature of him being in the KG. She literally uses her position to tell him where to go and what to do, and even oversteps her boundaries sometimes by giving orders for him.

As stated above, she manipulated him into joining the KG with implied promises of being together always. She then had affairs behind his back, used intimacy to persuade him, and cruelly put him down when he didn’t want to do the things she asked of him. That’s Cersei trying to maintain control of their dynamic. This is a “pattern of behavior” that dates back to at least Eel Alley.

Unhealthy/Toxic

There isn’t a clear line when a relationship becomes unhealthy or abusive. This means it might be hard to figure out what kind of relationship you’re in. Remember that abuse is all about power and control. An unhealthy relationship might involve a power imbalance, being mean, ignoring boundaries [x]

Unhealthy behaviors can appear to be abusive behaviors, and certain toxic acts can turn into abusive over time, but they’re not the same thing.

For Jaime’s side of the “abuse,” he falls more often into the “unhealthy” category. I’m going to respond to a meta I came across recently.

“Jaime has channelled all his sexual desire into Cersei for most of his life (even thinking “I’ve been too long away from Cersei” when he experiences some arousal upon seeing Brienne naked), and that is not something one partner should put upon another. He judges the attractiveness of other women in reference to Cersei: Brienne, once, and Hildy the sex worker in ADWD. Cersei is a person, not a standard of idealised beauty.”

People twist the entire context to make him appear to be somehow abusive in a situation that actually…. sounds like a victim. Cersei wants that level of devotion from Jaime (and so do some of her stans), which is literally exactly why they don’t think Jaime and Brienne are a love story and why Cersei is like LMAO HER? Jaime would never leave me for that creature! SHE’S UGLY.

She lived her whole life knowing that Jaime only had eyes for her, and the irony of “not a standard of idealised beauty” is that Cersei wants to be the standard of idealised beauty. He’s not “putting” anything on her. He’s reflecting what she wants and what has been reinforced since childhood.

Besides that, I don’t see why it’s so wrong for Jaime to think Cersei is the most beautiful woman on the planet lol. And way to miss the entire fucking point, because the point is that YEAH, their entire relationship is superficial. Superficiality is unhealthy to an extent, but it’s not “abusive.” Jaime has only been with one woman his entire life and now he’s finally starting to encounter women away from his sister, so of course he’s going to compare. It’s like if you never left your town but one day decided to venture out into the world outside of it. You’re going to compare the buildings, the culture, etc because your mind is going to be expanding.

“ Until late in ASoS, he does not value his Kingsguard vows except as they allow him to be close to her. (Again, mutually abusive relationship; Cersei’s actions were vital in getting him into this position where he has nothing but her.)”

HOW IS THIS ABUSIVE ON JAIME’S END? And I already discussed how she manipulated him into that situation with Casterly Rock being something of value to him.

“Cersei has no meaningful relationships with anyone or anything outside of Jaime and her children. This is bad for both of them. So much of their emotional energy goes into each other, fostering the sense that they are not independent, whole people, and reinforcing the sense that the relationship is the only thing of value in their lives.”

Yeah! It is! And since Jaime is in the KG because Cersei convinced him to join, and she literally murdered her friend because the girl expressed wanting to marry Jaime, I WONDER WHY JAIME HAS NO FUCKING LIFE OUTSIDE OF CERSEI? As for Cersei, she CHOOSES to limit herself to Lannisters. Jaime isn’t forcing her to not have friends what the actual fuck. Cersei murders her friends lmfao.

This is unhealthy, not abusive, on Jaime’s end. HE isn’t the one “fostering the sense that they are not independent, whole people.” As explained above, CERSEI is the one repeating this over and over, using it to convince him, to control, to attempt to rob him of his identity when he tries to stray. So on Cersei’s end, yeah, that’s abuse.

“For all his idealisation of her and their relationship, Jaime’s trust in Cersei is also a very brittle thing. When Tyrion tells Jaime “she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know,” while still believing Cersei’s declaration that Tyrion has “lied to you a thousand times, and so have I” was “a clumsy attempt to hurt him,” he doesn’t do what someone in a healthy relationship would do, and ask her. Whatever trust he has in her vanishes in two sentences, one about Cersei’s honesty, one about her fidelity.”

And… his… lack of trust was justified anyway? LMAO. He even thinks at some point that Tyrion IS lying. And when he’s away from Cersei in ASOS, he doesn’t imagine her fucking other people while he’s gone, because he trusted her. He genuinely believes that she’s faithful to him (which is precisely why he felt so betrayed). But he also trusts Tyrion, so he went back and forth, wondering wtf was the truth.

AND HOW THE FUCK IS LACK OF TRUST ABUSIVE? This is another case of IT’S UNHEALTHY to have little to no trust in your relationship. Not abusive ffs (!!!)

“Jaime is abusive because he coerces her into sex”

BTW, a person who laughed at me and said this also is a huge twincest shipper which… why… do you… romanticize it and claim their love to be True.. If… you think… he does that?!

Pretty much everyone brings up “sexual coercion.” And you know what? Fair.

But... Jaime and Cersei are drawn to a messy push-pull sex play. She says no and then “weakley” pushes him away.

There were soft, wet sounds. Bran realized they were kissing. He watched, wide-eyed and frightened, his breath tight in his throat. The man had a hand down between her legs, and he must have been hurting her there, because the woman started to moan, low in her throat. “Stop it,” she said, “stop it, stop it. Oh, please …” But her voice was low and weak, and she did not push him away. Her hands buried themselves in his hair, his tangled golden hair, and pulled his face down to her breast. -AGOT

This is GRRM trying to clarify that this is their messy sex dynamic. I mean, he has a fucking little kid observe this all “oh hey but she isn’t pushing him away guys! It’s all good, guys! That’s just them!” Like he’s taking down notes. The 4th wall being broken here is almost jarring.

This sounds a lot like the scene at WF.

“No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons …”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference. “Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined. - ASOS

In both scenes she’s weakly protesting which implies it’s a form of their sex play, and she’s being turned on by him “taking” her. This depiction of sex was actually really trendy in the media not too long ago, so honestly the sex scenes for this “edgey couple” just exposes his age. That push-pull, yes/no, “he can’t resist me” wasn’t nearly as controversial as it is now. He was literally writing what used to be seen as hot. It obviously did not age well.

And GRRM never meant for Jaime to be interpreted as a rapist.

"If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression – but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline. That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing … but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons." [x]

“Jaime thinks of her as a whore”

WHY IS THERE A THOUGHT POLICE? How is it abuse that he thinks a word with zero abusive action attached to it?? And like fuck LMAO Cersei is the one that goes off with the word “whore” quite often, in a misogynistic way.

What’s even stupider is when Jaime thinks of her as a “whore,” he’s just reciting what Tyrion told him, word for word. The words came from Tyrion, so Tyrion’s words are playing out in his mind.

“Cersei is a lying whore, she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and probably Moon Boy for all I know. And I am the monster they all say I am. Yes, I killed your vile son.” - AFFC

Oh, how Tyrion was sniggering.… a lying whore … fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack … - AFFC

And he even removes the whore bit.

“If so, we might have coaxed the truth from them.” … she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know … - AFFC

Ser Osmund Kettleblack paced beside them in his white enamel plate and white wool cloak. “… she been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know …” - AFFC

Jaime could feel his phantom fingers itching at the sight of him.… fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know … - AFFC

Strong and vigorous and handsome, Jaime thought.… she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know … - AFFC

He wanted to kiss her, carry her to her bedchamber, throw her on the bed … she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy … - AFFC

That only made her laugh. “We all have secrets, brother,” she replied. … she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know … - AFFC

Now there’s this time where he says,

Jaime gave a shrug. “My apologies if I mistook you for something you’re not. My little brother has known a hundred whores, I’m sure, but I’ve only ever bedded one.” -ADWD

OMG EVERYONE STOP WHAT YOU’RE DOING NOW IT’S TIME TO OFFICIALLY STAMP HIM AS A MISOGYNIST AND THIS AS MUTUAL ABUSE towards someone who isn’t even fucking there and for bitterly thinking of his cheating partner as a whore in a world that throws that word around like it’s candy at a parade.

Since “whore” in Westeros is more loosely thrown around than it is in our world, the incredibly hurt and angry Jaime thinking she’s a whore for sleeping with multiple people behind his back is not that fucking wild. Do I think that's sexist? Yeah. Do I think it’s healthy? No. Do I think it’s a realistic response that a very hurt person would think, especially in a world where it’s a common term? Absolutely.

“He dreams about hurting her though so lol he’s clearly violent against her”

(yes I’ve unfortunately seen this a lot)

Hey all... I have a confession to make...

I dreamed about pushing a certain politician in front of a bus and bashing D&D’s teeth in. I also had a dream where I kicked my sister because she ate my last piece of cheesecake. I’m so sorry. Please lock me up and throw away the key until it’s time for me to be executed.

Last night he dreamed he’d found her fucking Moon Boy. He’d killed the fool and smashed his sister’s teeth to splinters with his golden hand, just as Gregor Clegane had done to poor Pia. -AFFC

… he DREAMED it.

PEOPLE ARE FUCKING USING THIS AS EVIDENCE FOR MUTUAL ABUSE BECAUSE HE DREAMED IT.

You know partly why? Because they THINK he’s going to murder her or harm her, so they’re prematurely calling him abusive and removing literally all the context because... IT HASN’T HAPPENED. They’re essentially accusing a man of doing something before he even does it without even knowing FOR SURE if he’s even going to do it, USING THIS DREAM TO ACCUSE HIM LOL.

god THIS FUCKING FANDOM I-

DREAMS. ARE NOT. ABUSE

I’mcryingwhydoIhavetosaythat

Not only is it in a dream, but like, idk, why do you think he’s having those violent dreams? Did she do something to really hurt him so his pain is manifesting in his subconscious as violence? IDK just a wild guess! Maybe he specifically thought about smashing her teeth in, because just previously they were speaking about how Ser Gregor did the same thing to Pia. You know... kinda like me dreaming about angrily pushing my cheating ex down the stairs after I watched a murder mystery documentary where someone was pushed down a flight of stairs. (Oh but my ex was a man, so it’s just viewed as a dream).

… the cringe of the thought police...

Yeah. I’m done. I didn’t even dig up all of Cersei’s instances of abuse and this thing is like fucking 20 pages long. So even IF you view Jaime’s thoughts (!!!!) as abusive and IF you believe he was full on coercing or raping her, they still aren’t nearly MUTUALLY abusive, as in 50/50 abuse, and I’m just going to circle back around to what I said in the beginning about the main victims reacting in problematic ways.

Anyway. I always start these as calm and cool and then end with all caps and a glass of wine to chill me out. All I have left to say about whatever that “mutually abusive” meta was is

#longest one I've ever done heads up LOL #jaime lannister #asoiaf #probably have a million mistakes and a thousand regrettable things but I'm tired and want this done #but honestly thanks anon #I was legit wanting to write about this for a long time #abuse

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