#comprehensible input method

[rigelmejo]

Mini rant about "learning through comprehensible input" and the many situations it's used to mean somewhat different things:

In traditional language learning, using classrooms and textbooks, grammar guides and flashcards: comprehensible input are the dialogues/paragraphs in your textbook that you get a vocabulary translation list for and grammar explanations for so you can comprehend it. It can also be tutoring sessions, where you talk with the tutor and they use translations and gestures and visuals to make sure you can understand them. Once you reach a decent level of understanding the language, comprehensible input becomes any regular material for native speakers you can understand the main idea of (or more). So if someone who took classes for years is telling you to immerse in materials for native speakers, they probably assume you have some prior knowledge about the language and can understand the materials for native speakers to a degree. If a teacher is recommending you immerse in the language, they probably mean to immerse with content that uses words/situations you've studied in class at some point. These people do NOT mean for a brand new beginner, who knows nothing, to just go sit and watch movies for adults in the target language and magically learn over time.

In Refold/Mass Immersion Approach community, online communities where the study method involves a lot of flashcards/anki/SRS/apps with vocabulary/making word or sentence lists with translations: when they say comprehensible input, they mean material you can understand the main idea of, with the help of looking up word translations and grammar! They usually expect you will at least look up some key words once in a while, or immerse with stuff that uses words you've recently studied (in anki). When they say "immerse a lot and often" sometimes they do mean to immerse with input you do NOT understand, but when they're saying to get mostly comprehensible input, they mean either stuff made for learners to be understandable OR you using tools like word translation to be able to understand the material. There are people who did try to immerse with input they did not understand (maybe because they didn't understand the advice to immerse in materials for native speakers), without looking up words or using any tools to help them understand, and thousands of hours later they still were beginners. The people who successfully have used anki and immersion to learn a language, usually mean using immersion material that you can comprehend the main idea of (with tools/aids if necessary like word translations or word definitions in the target language). Notice that for these learners, comprehensible input MAY NOT BE comprehensible if you're relying on ONLY what you already know, and may require TOOLS to be comprehensible. They're expecting you to USE TOOLS to make the input comprehensible! (Flashcards, definition lookups in target language, word translation lookups, grammar explanation lookups).

Comprehensible Input Method/Automatic Language Growth/Nature Method Learners: By comprehensible input, they mean only materials you can understand the main idea of (without needing tools/aids). This will initially be materials MADE FOR LEARNERS, like the Nature Method textbooks with illustrations to explain the meaning, and Comprehensible Input lessons on youtube where the teacher shows you pictures and uses gestures to communicate the main idea. Then the materials may be graded readers made with a vocabulary a learner is expected to know, and possibly a vocabulary list in the back. And podcasts for learners, that use a limited number of words they expect the learner to know and define new words. Eventually, this can mean cartoons for toddlers where the visuals about what is being said, in addition to the words you already know, makes the main idea understandable. Then eventually cartoons for older kids, and shows, novels for kids, and novels for adults, etc as you learn more words and understand more (without needing tools/aid). So the key here, is this kind of learner usually means MATERIALS you can understand without any tools! This is a huge difference from the Refold learners, who often mean comprehensible input as ANY input if you're using enough tools TO comprehend it.

ALL of these learners usually mean, by comprehensible input, materials you can understand the main idea of - with or without tools. If you cannot understand the main idea - use tools! If you can understand the main idea, cool, you comprehend it enough to learn from it! None of these learners are trying to suggest beginners trying to learn a target language just listen to adult radio in the TL for 2000 hours and somehow 'learn.' All of these learners think a beginner NEEDS either a lot of visuals to allow for understanding (comprehensible input lessons, nature method), so the learning aid is built INTO the materials initially. Or these learners think beginners NEED to use tools to make materials understandable (translations, dictionary entries, anki to memorize words, textbooks), to be able to learn from materials. In either case, the advice to use comprehensible input assumes you are comprehending the main idea being conveyed in the material, and if needed you're using additional tools/aids/resources to figure out the main idea being conveyed.

There's a guy on youtube who keeps making these videos about using input to learn japanese, and I overall agree with him. But he only mentions a few times he uses anki to study (so uses tools to understand more), and he learned a decent number of words before using audio-only as input to study with (so he could comprehend the main idea to a degree), and the impression I get from comments is that some people sincerely think he's saying to listen to regular japanese materials for adults for thousands of hours and that itself will be enough to learn. I don't think he necessarily makes it clear how much initially VISUAL input is better if someone is going to just watch materials in japanese, how much his explicit study with anki may be increasing what he can comprehend, and how much using materials-made-for-learners works better in the beginning (he does recommend learner podcasts like Nihongo Con Teppei and Learn Japanese with Shun). I think the guy's heart is in the right place, and he's got good advice. I just get frustrated with how MANY people are misunderstanding his advice. Especially beginners, who may think when he says immerse in content you only understand 10% of... he is assuming the beginner is looking up key words, and making new anki cards of words they're hearing to study more.

As a learner... please don't bash your head into content you don't understand the main idea of for hundreds of hours. I am begging you, do something like look for materials MADE FOR LEARNERS to be understandable (comprehensible input lessons, graded readers, textbooks, sentences with translations, dialogues, or even cartoons with clear visuals about what is going on), or USE SOME TOOLS to make things understandable to you! Please...

[nowtoboldlygo]

refold is a language learning method/community that is incredibly, incredibly popular in some language learning spaces. i haven't seen much on it here, and i really love their philosophy on comprehension.

[copied from their website.]

In general, comprehension tends to be domain-specific. For example, you might generally have around story-level comprehension when reading mystery novels, but around gist-level comprehension when watching the news. Further, even within a single domain, your comprehension will likely vary depending on the specific piece of content.

It’s completely normal for your comprehension to vary greatly from day-to-day or even hour-to-hour. It can even vary from episode to episode within the same TV show. Comprehension is affected by many factors, including your mood, energy level, and engagement in the content you’re consuming.

It’s also normal to occasionally feel like your comprehension has suddenly gotten worse. This is an illusion. As your comprehension increases, you become more aware of what you still don’t understand. This increased awareness of your ignorance is what causes the subjective experience of losing comprehension. It’s actually a good sign, not a bad one!

[squeakygeeky]

Three months of Thai

I've reached a weird point where listening to Thai, even native content like unsubbed actor interviews, definitely feels like I'm listening to normal speech with words, but where only some of those words are familiar and only some of them have real meaning to me. Definitely a contrast to Vietnamese, where I can pick out a few basic words, but it still just sounds alien overall, and Spanish where I understand the majority of what I hear. What I do know isn't just nouns and a few verbs, I've started catching functional things like 'but' and 'like this.'

I did have an actual lesson where I spoke enough to answer yes/no questions and say how may things I had and what color, so I feel like that proved to myself that speaking can naturally arise out of listening to a some degree. I do have another lesson tomorrow but I'm thinking of stopping. It's making this feel a little more like a REAL THING I'm doing and not just a weird little side project and I'm not sure how much mental capacity I have for taking on a REAL THING right now because REAL THINGS can make me stressed in a way thing things that aren't really a thing don't.

I'm sick of beginner content, but I'm not ready for anything more interesting, so I just have to plow through. I'll have some much less time/energy after this coming weekend so no more 2hrs a day, I'll be lucky to manage 1 and I'm sad about that despite how much of a slog it can feel like. There's also a part of me that wants to try a new language now now now, but I also love Thai and would miss it.

[what-even-is-thiss]

The YouTube channel Comprehensible Thai has a full comprehensible input course meant to get you from zero to ready to watch content in Thai through the ALG method completely for free btw they’ve got like 1300 hours of content on there

[dreamdolldeveloper]

back to basics

mostly free resources to help you learn the basics that i've gathered for myself so far that i think are cool

everyday

gcfglobal - about the internet, online safety and for kids, life skills like applying for jobs, career planning, resume writing, online learning, today's skills like 3d printing, photoshop, smartphone basics, microsoft office apps, and mac friendly. they have core skills like reading, math, science, language learning - some topics are sparse so hopefully they keep adding things on. great site to start off on learning.

handsonbanking - learn about finances. after highschool, credit, banking, investing, money management, debt, goal setting, loans, cars, small businesses, military, insurance, retirement, etc.

bbc - learning for all ages. primary to adult. arts, history, science, math, reading, english, french, all the way to functional and vocational skills for adults as well, great site!

education.ket - workplace essential skills

general education

mathsgenie - GCSE revision, grade 1-9, math stages 1-14, provides more resources! completely free.

khan academy - pre-k to college, life skills, test prep (sats, mcat, etc), get ready courses, AP, partner courses like NASA, etc. so much more!

aleks - k-12 + higher ed learning program. adapts to each student.

biology4kids - learn biology

cosmos4kids - learn astronomy basics

chem4kids - learn chemistry

physics4kids - learn physics

numbernut - math basics (arithmetic, fractions and decimals, roots and exponents, prealgebra)

education.ket - primary to adult. includes highschool equivalent test prep, the core skills. they have a free resource library and they sell workbooks. they have one on work-life essentials (high demand career sectors + soft skills)

youtube channels

the organic chemistry tutor

khanacademy

crashcourse

tabletclassmath

2minmaths

kevinmathscience

professor leonard

greenemath

mathantics

3blue1brown

literacy

readworks - reading comprehension, build background knowledge, grow your vocabulary, strengthen strategic reading

chompchomp - grammar knowledge

tutors

not the "free resource" part of this post but sometimes we forget we can be tutored especially as an adult. just because we don't have formal education does not mean we can't get 1:1 teaching! please do you research and don't be afraid to try out different tutors. and remember you're not dumb just because someone's teaching style doesn't match up with your learning style.

cambridge coaching - medical school, mba and business, law school, graduate, college academics, high school and college process, middle school and high school admissions

preply - language tutoring. affordable!

revolutionprep - math, science, english, history, computer science (ap, html/css, java, python c++), foreign languages (german, korean, french, italian, spanish, japanese, chinese, esl)

varsity tutors - k-5 subjects, ap, test prep, languages, math, science & engineering, coding, homeschool, college essays, essay editing, etc

chegg - biology, business, engineering/computer science, math, homework help, textbook support, rent and buying books

learn to be - k-12 subjects

for languages

lingq - app. created by steve kaufmann, a polygot (fluent in 20+ languages) an amazing language learning platform that compiles content in 20+ languages like podcasts, graded readers, story times, vlogs, radio, books, the feature to put in your own books! immersion, comprehensible input.

flexiclasses - option to study abroad, resources to learn, mandarin, cantonese, japanese, vietnamese, korean, italian, russian, taiwanese hokkien, shanghainese.

fluentin3months - bootcamp, consultation available, languages: spanish, french, korean, german, chinese, japanese, russian, italian.

fluenz - spanish immersion both online and in person - intensive.

pimsleur - not tutoring** online learning using apps and their method. up to 50 languages, free trial available.

incase time has passed since i last posted this, check on the original post (not the reblogs) to see if i updated link or added new resources. i think i want to add laguage resources at some point too but until then, happy learning!!

[salvadorbonaparte]

academia and imposter syndrome summarised: my methods of teaching prof kept talking about Meaningful Input and I kept thinking oh shit I'm super behind on the terminology and finally dared to ask where the difference between Meaningful Input and Comprehensible Input is. Turns out she meant Comprehensible Input, forgot the word, and made something up that sounded right.

[la-galaxie-langblr]

Hot Enby Language Summer 5: Language Jive

It's the 5th year of my self-inflicted language challenge that I never complete :D /hj

This silly little challenge has become quite special to me and I look forward to doing it every year!! Since it's the 5th edition, I'm going to be studying 5 languages (sort of). In rough order of priority, I'm studying French, German, Ancient Greek, Irish and a Wildcard language, where a Wildcard is whatever language I feel like dabbling in at the time. I don't expect to do all 5 every week, but I'd like to do a bit of everything over the course of the summer.

Language goals

French 🇫🇷

My top priority for obvious reasons!

Read! I want to read at least 1 magazine/short story collection, 1 translated novel and 1 originally French novel.

Watch a total of 20 French films

Complete the B1-B2 French course I have saved on Coursera

Make contact with at least 3 people in the city I'm going to in September, I'll really need francophone friends, method yet to be determined

German 🇩🇪

The epic return of German to HELS after (checks tag) 4 years! I'm planning at least 3 trips to Germany in the next 12 months and I want to reach a "can read menus, fumble through interactions politely and survive public transport" level

Complete a travel German course online - haven't decided which yet!

Do a few weeks of my German in 3 Months book - I did about 6 weeks of it a million years ago and I'd like to refresh my memory, phrase banks only get you so far and I'd like to be able to produce some German myself on the fly if needed

Read a yet undetermined amount of this old Nature Method of Learning German book I found - I can't find the link atm but if I remember I'll update my post, it's comprehensible input but for reading, the book is entirely in German and starts with very basic stuff and gradually builds up the level

Ancient Greek 🇬🇷

The only reason this is higher on the list than Irish is because I'm using an ebook from my uni's digital library and I won't have access to that forever, I'm the only one who seems to be borrowing it so I'm set for a while

Do one chapter a week from Learn To Read New Testament Greek by David Alan Black

Irish 🇮🇪

My old friend, I'm not ready to go back to structured studying just yet so I'm going to try a different approach

Watch this playlist of 20 short films in Irish

As a bonus I might pick up my violin and learn a few traditional Irish tunes? We'll see

Wildcard

A Wildcard is any language not on this list, and I can do as much or as little of that language for as long as I like <3

Hot Enby Language Summer will run from Monday 16th June to Sunday 14th September, and I'll write weekly update posts if I remember, let's get languaging :D

[justinspoliticalcorner]

Erin In The Morning:

In a groundbreaking development for the care of transgender youth in France, the French Society of Pediatric Endocrinology and Diabetology has released what is being called the first French national medical consensus on trans youth care. The document’s release comes as a variety of other countries consider the politically-influenced guidelines from the Cass Review in the United Kingdom, which has since been heavily criticized and its recommendations rejected by multiple medical societies in other countries. Importantly, the new guidelines recommend transgender youth care, denounce a “wait-and-see” approach for transgender adolescents, and promote individualized care for every transgender patient.

The guidelines, described as both robust and extensive, were meticulously prepared. According to the document, one to three authors were assigned to each section, conducting comprehensive literature reviews. Their findings were then refined through multiple iterations, with input from the broader group until a consensus was achieved. Finally, the recommendations underwent review by external experts. The result is a thorough and authoritative set of guidelines aimed at providing clear direction for doctors caring for transgender youth in France. The guidelines encompass a wide range of care recommendations for transgender youth, offering official support for puberty blockers and gender-affirming hormone therapy. Regarding puberty blockers, the guidelines emphasize their role in allowing transgender youth to explore their gender identity without the added distress of undergoing puberty, while also reducing the need for future surgeries. For hormone therapy, the recommendations advocate its use for transgender youth who meet the criteria outlined in the ICD-11, ensuring an individualized and evidence-based approach to care.

The recommendations strongly oppose the “wait-and-see” approach for transgender adolescents, often referred to as “gender exploratory therapy.” This practice, considered a form of conversion therapy, seeks to attribute a transgender person’s identity to external factors rather than recognizing it as authentic, delaying access to care—often until adulthood. The guidelines reject this method, stating it “does not reduce psychological distress” and instead “increases the risk of committing suicide and can affect psycho-affective and cognitive development.” These findings align with a report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control showing that 25% of transgender youth in the United States have attempted suicide, alongside another study in Nature Human Behavior indicating that anti-trans laws, including healthcare bans, have caused up to a 72% increase in suicide attempts.

[...] These guidelines are poised to resonate both in France and globally. As countries and major medical associations increasingly distance themselves from the U.K.’s Cass Review—criticized for its connections to SPLC-designated hate groups—the scientific consensus continues to affirm the importance of gender-affirming care for transgender youth. Their release comes just one day before the U.S. Supreme Court hears oral arguments on healthcare bans targeting transgender youth across the United States. In a climate where medical care for trans youth is under relentless political attack, guidelines like these offer a beacon of evidence-based practice and will be instrumental in shaping a future where access to essential care is protected and secured for all.

Unlike much of the world, especially the UK ([cough]Cass Review[/cough]) and red states in the US, France has introduced guidelines on gender-affirming care that affirmatively recommend the practice.

[cerastes]

Hey how come you making flippant comments in regards to your own self-improvement fetish is so enlightening in regards to mental health things is this the whole 'professional' thing at work.

I would like to think so! When we think of "psychology", most people might have a very Freudian image of it: A therapist solemnly but very comprehensively taking notes as a patient lies on a couch and spills their guts, only interjecting once or twice in the hour-long session and then charging you. Psychoanalysis, the Freudian technique, I don't think it's useless, but it's definitely just one of a myriad of techniques and methods with which to carry out therapy (and one I myself am trained in and do not like). I myself am more of systems theory of psychology kind of guy (Humberto Maturana, Ludwig von Bertalanffy, Gregory Bateson, among others), and systems has a very input-output sort of view (if you want to learn more, you can also look up second order cybernetics and radical constructivism).

Where I am going with all of this is that if it may seem like I'm making flippant comments, then that means I've synthetized my own self-care mind palace to such a degree that it has simply become part of my discourse, my lingo, my poise, if you will, but that in itself took a lot of introspective work in a way that was tangible to me, or in other words, in a way that my brain accepted it. Ultimately, it's the role of the psychologist to lead one to something rather than to reveal any sort of secret to wellness. Using myself as an example, as someone that had suicidal depression at one point, being told to "think positively" didn't do a damn thing, because if it was that easy, then depression wouldn't exist. Instead, I more or less had to trick my own brain into giving it reasons as to why it should think positively, because it makes sense to do so, and in the same vein, I had to give it reasons as to why thinking negatively was dumb. Because that sort of logic works with me. So it's less "hey, think nice things :)" and more "okay but does it have to be like this? Does everyone else have this crushing sadness as their normal as well? I don't think so, so maybe what I'm feeling isn't normal. Why am I thinking that way? What do they have that I don't? Oh, thing A and thing B, yeah, makes sense, and do I want these things? Mmm thing A doesn't really matter to me, but thing B, I'm loathe to admit, is something I desire, how about I work towards having thing B for now as a goal and then see if that is good enough or at least improves my mental state? Are things really as hopeless as I think they are and am I enlightened by my grim outlook? Probably not, so why am I hopeless and why are they not? There's something I don't have or don't know, let's see what that is, and put these shit thoughts on hold until I can ascertain these things". This is a summarized version, of course, but you know what I mean.

But where I'm going with this (again) is that once you grab onto your own internal logic (which is where the introspective work leads to!) and know what makes you click and how your own metrics and parameters of motivation work, it becomes much much easier to have a healthy mental state and keep it healthy. This, in my opinion, should be the long term objective of any good therapy: To at least start your user (I don't really use the term "patient") on this road. I'm making it sounds all sunshine and rainbows, but introspective work worth having does entail having to look at the uglier parts of yourself and acknowledging them, hence why not a lot of people see it through. It takes commitment and guts because you very much do reach a point where you need to look at these things that are awful and be like "yes, this, too, is me" before you can start going into how to turn these into advantageous things instead.

Likewise, the therapy I do tends to have this as goal: Let's work this shit together so we can organize it in a way that's easier to handle for starters, and then you can have a very good grip on the reins of what makes you feel good and what makes you feel bad, and so can easily dispel the brain fog by simply consulting your inner blueprint. Each user is a whole different journey, and it's part of what makes psychology such a beautiful field.

[rigelmejo]

Picking up a second language from television: an autoethnographic L2 simulation of L1 French learning

I deeply appreciate this experiment one person did with their own language learning, Picking up a second language from television: an autoethnographic L2 simulation of L1 French learning, and it's free to read if anyone else is curious.

The writer did the following: attempted to learn French by watching TV shows in French with no subtitles, and no word lookups or translations, for 1200 hours. They started with shows for adults, and realized children's cartoons were much easier to learn new words from initially as the visual context and slow speech helped them figure out word/phrase/grammar meanings, and then watched children's cartoons for a while until gradually increasing difficulty of shows again. While in the first several hundred hours, they watched some cartoons by repeatedly watching certain sentences and scenes over and over, attempting to understand as much as they could, such as with the cartoon Calliou. After 1200 hours, they started reading French, talking to people in French, and reading some grammar explanations at that point. They passed a B2 test at the conclusion of 1500 hours, with the first 1200 being watching French TV with no tools/explanations and then the last 300 hours including speaking and finally looking up some explanations and seeing french writing.

This account of their experience is incredibly interesting to me. It shows a few things which (at least for me) can be learned from.

1. That a goal of aiming for over a thousand hours spent trying to understand materials in your target language is useful.

2. The time they spent engaging with French is (very roughly) similar to FSI estimates if you include the hours of outside-class study recommended, 750 class hours plus time spent studying outside of class (2 hours outside of class per class hour is the FSI recommendation - which would be 2250 for French). The time it took him to pass B2 is in the 1000+ hour range, which is similar to classroom time plus outside study time expected. Automatic Language Growth type courses tend to suggest 1000-2000 hours to speak on an adult level and understand others, with 1500 being the suggested study length Dreaming Spanish suggests and ALG Thai programs recommending 2000 hours. Some learners who've done DS and ALG Thai programs suggest they feel they can understand people and discuss things on a basic level at those hours, but feel they need more hours to really be 'fluent'. I think that aligns well with the 1500 hour French study linked above, where he felt 1500 hours felt intermediate and capable of talking with others/working/understanding others but by no means fluent. So my personal thoughts on this is... the French 2250 hour estimate (FSI class-hours estimates added to 2 outside-class hours per hour as FSI suggests) is probably roughly in line with people's experiences.

And the earlier goal of 1500 (1000-2000 depending on the individual, and the target language) being a good initial goal for basic ability to do all things in the language (but not necessarily well and not mastered). Perhaps this number could be several hundred hours, and less than a thousand, if your target language is similar to one you already know or you have experience learning languages already. But the thought I am concluding from all of this is: expect 1000 hours or more trying to understand stuff in your target language if you wish to be able to understand the main idea (or more) of most things, and communicate your main idea with others.

(And for the sake of curiosity, FSI estimates 2200 class hours for Japanese and Chinese, so 6600 hours total, for an English speaker. So probably...at minimum 1000 hours to start speaking, like ALG Thai learners notice, at minimum 2000 hours to start understanding the main idea of most things, and based on FSI estimates... perhaps 3000-3300 hours minimum to start feeling similar to that level achieved after 1500 hours studying French or Spanish).

3. He studied French with zero aids like grammar guides or translations or even the French alphabet and a pronunciation explanation. He mentions in his paper, that being able to look up translations, or even see French subtitles on the TV shows, may have potentially sped up his progress. (Or perhaps not, as he didn't try those tools until 1200 hours in). Many of us learners HAVE used such tools already. The lesson I take from his experience is...even if you use NO tools or aids to learn, if you dedicate 1000+ hours to attempting to understand visual-audio situations (videos or classes or your life experiences in a country) you will make progress and increase your understanding of the language. If you initially focus on more-visually understandable things, like children's cartoons or ALG teachers who visually attempt to explain or a person helping you through a situation (like a native speaker talking to you as they help you grocery shop), then your initial progress as a beginner will be FASTER. And it may well be necessary to understand a certain amount, as a beginner, for the target-language input to be useful. You don't need to understand 100% or even 90%, but you do need to understand enough to hear at least 1 word or phrase or grammar piece every couple minutes that you can GUESS at the possible meaning of. At least, to learn in a timely manner.

So as a beginner, visual-audio input is much more useful than audio only - especially if you don't have cognates to use to make guesses. And visual-audio input where the speaking is ABOUT something in the same scene/experience/event so it's easier to guess what bits of the language mean. And if you choose to use tools like a translation app/site, if it's helping you figure out meaning of bits of language then it may be particularly useful as a beginner. (There's certainly language learning camps that think using translations lessens your actual learning of the language, but based on his paper... I at least think, what I take from it, is that those beginning few hundred hours it's most important you find a way to UNDERSTAND the main idea of the target language material. My take is that, even if that involves translation tools for 300 hours initially, it's worth it. You can abandon translation tools once you understand enough stuff in the language - like a few hundred key words or pronunciations etc - to start understanding really basic main ideas from kids cartoons. But if you can't even guess "cartoon character is pointing to bike, seems to want bike, even though I have no idea what words they're saying, maybe one of those words was bike..." then you aren't going to comprehend enough to guess word meanings. It seems like after the first few hundred hours, the need for translations and/or kid cartoons is less. Once you have some small base of words/phrases you've guessed the meaning of, then it's possible to start guessing the meaning of conversations even when there's no visual context to indicate what's going on - such as adult shows where they discuss off-screen abstract topics, and audio only materials).

4. There is no huge need to pick the 'perfect' study method or materials. After the initial beginner stage of learning some key words/phrases from visual context (a few hundred hours), you WILL continue learning and make progress as long as you keep engaging with the language and trying to understand the main idea. So study/watch/listen to whatever you like that, that you can get yourself to engage with for 1000 hours or more. Some people will want to keep looking up word-translations, do that. Some people will love cdramas or anime or shows and just want to watch tons of shows. Some people will feel more comfortable watching/doing easier things like a tutor that matches your comfort level (like crosstalk), immersion with someone helping you navigate, watching cartoons, watching stuff for learners (like Comprehensible Input youtube channels). Some people want to jump into the deep end and go for audiobooks or podcasts. If you are able to even just GUESS a word/phrase/grammar point meaning every 1-3 minutes (or more often) then you'll likely keep improving your understanding. No need to be perfect, just figure out a way to keep yourself engaged. Because it'll take a thousand hours or more.

5. I hate to say this because I love reading... but to develop listening comprehension... you need to listen. Having visual-audio materials as a beginner is critical. Even if that means graded readers you read paired with an audiobook. And you'll need to keep listening for at least 1000 hours to build good listening comprehension - it takes time to get used to hearing the pronunciation, to mentally separating it into phrases/words, to adjusting to various speeds, to emotional meanings and implications, to adjust to understanding various accents. His paper indicated he struggled with understanding faster speech until he'd studied enough hundreds of hours, and then struggled with slang and accents much longer. Listening comprehension is critical to: conversing with others, speaking and being understood, listening to shows and audio. So it must be worked on. That is not to say you can't study by reading - I sure did! And still do! But that the hours spent reading WITHOUT audio will not contribute to some of those critical listening and speaking skills.

Reading on it's own will help prime you to pick up vocabulary when listening faster, help with increasing vocabulary, help with getting used to word usage and grammar. But based on his paper... for him, at least, it seems reading skill was picked up Extremely Fast after already having a good ability to listen and speak with people. He picked up reading skills within months! From my own experience... I mostly studied with reading ONLY activities, in French and Chinese, and improving in my listening skills takes A LOT of hours. It will not be as good as my reading within a few months. I think I may pick up listening skills Somewhat faster than someone who's read less, since I am primed to learn listening comprehension of words I understand in reading faster than trying to comprehend brand new words. But so many listening skills are lagging significantly. My Chinese listening skills are much better than my French listening skills, since I did often listen while reading when I studied. But there's still so many key aspects of words that I don't have natural ability to simply verbalize without thinking, like instantly saying the right tone, or instantly knowing the right pronunciation for some words I can read fine. And comprehension of listening to people is way lower than my ability to read and comprehend.

[nowtoboldlygo]

AVOID These MISTAKES When Getting INPUT - Superbeginner Spanish

[squeakygeeky]

100 hours of Thai listening comprehension

I did just talk bout my one month milestone which was 60 hours so it's not like I feel much different, but supposedly I should know around ~300 words now. Do I? I have no idea because this isn't a method that lends it self to tracking and testing. I am pretty good at colors, numbers, animals, family and food so I guess that's about right. I can feel my listening comprehension improving week by week when I watched subtitled BL. I believe this would be A1 CEFR, but only for listening. No speaking, reading, or writing.

I'm probably more advanced than 100hrs would normally would be since I would estimate I've watched 350+ hours of Thai BL (yikes!). But I don't count that since I wasn't paying attention to the language, and even now if I watch something with subtitles I'm mostly learning subtitles. I can definitely understand the words I know when I hear them in BL and not just in the context of the lessons. There are some words that I recognize as distinct words, but I'm still trying to figure out what the heck they mean.

I'm avoiding watching Thai BL for the most part, since I'm kind of saving it all for later when I understand even more. Right not it's only Laws of Attraction. Knowing family words helped with the very poor subtitles though, so my time is paying off.

I am very bored of watching videos like Guess The Fruit and look forward to being able to watch more advanced ones about Thai culture and stuff, but that's a ways off. Watching BL without subtitles (not in the sense of understanding all the words, but being able to follow the plot) would I think take almost a year, even at my current pace, which is absolutely going to be unsustainable when we hit fall. But I keep thinking of that meme 'the time will pass anyway.'

[what-even-is-thiss]

do you have any advice for language-learning for romance languages or developing skills in romance languages? (i know some spanish & i'm hoping to learn french but i'm not sure where to start)

My advice for learning literally any language is to listen to it and read it a lot. Use whatever study method you want but the bulk of your time should be spent reading, listening to podcasts, or watching videos without English translations. In fact, if you find some resource that does comprehensible input for absolute beginners then active study might not even be necessary. The way you get a language to stick and make sense and develop an intuitive understanding of it is to listen to it and read it for thousands of hours.

For Spanish I’ll always recommend the YouTube channel Dreaming Spanish. They have a premium tier but their YouTube channel already has hundreds of hours of free listening practice for every level. Even if you don’t know any Spanish at all.

For French, there’s a channel I found recently called French comprehendible input that has a series for beginners where he talks about one word for a while in slow French.

Go onto YouTube and search for comprehensible input (language) or (language) listening practice.

And, most importantly, find what gets you to stick to it. If studying in a textbook makes you bored and sad, then don’t do that! Try translating some songs you like or doing flash cards while waiting in line or listening to a podcast about a topic you’re interested in or reading a news website for kids.

Just get the language into your brain somehow by any means necessary. And have fun with it!

[indigostudies]

specifically the post i’m annoyed by is by a big blog that will remain unnamed (general big blog, not language sphere big blog…i think. unless my judgement of this person’s online activity is entirely off) and insists that if you “just turn on the [language] subs rather than english subs” you’ll…somehow magically begin to understand (presumably at least intermediate conversational) dialogue in shows? which, i think comprehensible input can be a great tool but…that’s not CI. you’re just advising people to do something that will have little to no payoff unless they’re already familiar with the language’s basics (at least!)(the post was specifically aimed at beginning learners with no/little familiarity, though!) and which will probably leave them frustrated and demoralised…i don’t mean to gatekeep but i think sometimes maybe people shouldn’t confidently claim xyz method is the One True Secret Solution. especially if they have, quite literally, no sources to back them up besides (to quote the internet) “source: trust me bro”.

[kikizoshi]

youre learning Russian, right? I've also started learning with borrowed textbooks, and the consensus I've seen online is that its not enough, and that a course is necessary. if you don't mind I'd be really appreciative to know how you got where you are and if you think that's true.

Спасибо за по��ощь (ღゝ◡╹)ノ♡

Unfortunately, I don't really know what I'm doing either. Just kinda stumbling through, and "where I am" isn't all that far. I can only ever be an authority on what helps me learn Russian; in my experience, there's never been a one-to-one, "follow these steps I took to become fluent" method. Everyone has to figure out their own quirks. (And if this isn't true for someone then I'm very jealous of that person.)

I've seen about as many different opinions as there are ways to learn. Some think you need courses. Some think courses are useless. Some like textbooks; others hate them. The one consistent thing seems to be input--everyone agrees you need a lot of comprehensible input (meaning, you understand some of what you're consuming). But is a course necessary? I don't think so. Whether it could be vastly beneficial or a waste of time and money is something that depends entirely on the person's learning style. A resource I've linked further down may help you determine whether it'd help you. I've never taken a course, so I don't have any experience there.

Also: I have ADHD, so everything here is working around that. Motivation is a massive issue for me, and I've generally found that forcing my way through something droll for long periods of time just... isn't something I can make myself do. It burns me out. I try to make everything something I want to do, or at least not very painful. But my methods are also slower and less effective than something more structured.

Comprehensible Input

How I got to it being helpful:

People go on about comprehensible input all the time, and I can see why; it's extremely important. It's what finally moved me from mid-A1 to late-A2. But actually getting to a place where input even can be comprehensible was so horrifically painful for me that for a long while I felt completely inept. So, here's the things I did, in order, that I think helped:

A0-A1 (not helpful yet)

Duolingo + Twitter: Don't get me wrong--I hate Duolingo. And non-fanart Twitter. But it was a great combination for learning Cyrillic. I used Duolingo's earliest levels to get familiar with Cyrillic and some very basic words. Concurrently, I followed some Russian fanartists on Twitter who also posted text posts frequently, and turned notifs on for them. That made it so that 3-5 times a day, I would get a notification for a post in Russian, and I would practise reading/sounding out Cyrillic. I wasn't too focused on understanding what the post was saying, just getting a familiarity with the alphabet.

Memrise + Anki: Pain. God, so much pain. This was the worst. Necessary and effective, but the absolute, God-forsaken worst. Once I felt comfortable enough with Cyrillic, I started working through two decks: a. Memrise: vlarya's 10k most common Russian words deck. It goes in order of most to least common, has audio, and has typing practise. This replaces Duolingo. (When Memrise inevitably removes community courses altogether, feel free to ask for a backup of this deck. If I'm still on here by then, I should be able to give my backup that works with Anki.) I don't recommend Memrise's official courses. b. Anki: Neri's Russian Sentences (blog link) deck is great for practising the simple words you're learning with Memrise, getting common phrases down, and starting to see how Russian as a language comes together. It'll take a bit to click. c. keybr: I also started practising a little with keybr, mainly because having to type in Russian on Memrise sucks with the on-screen keyboard. keybr is the best site I've found to learn to touch type different keyboards. It's extremely effective. If you're already a touch-typer, a few hours should be enough to type well enough for Memrise.

YouTube: Russian With Max's 'For Beginners' Playlist was really helpful and motivating, at this point. He speaks slowly, simply, and clearly enough that I could understand him, where I couldn't understand anyone else yet.

I... God, I hate the A0-A1 stage so much. You can't do anything. At least now, I can watch TikToks, read comments, enjoy memes, and understand enough of those to enjoy myself. The stage where you understand nothing is by far the most awful to me. I wish I had anything to make it more bearable, but it's really just the worst. Hopefully you're either past this already, or close to past it. The small mercy is that it doesn't take too long to claw your way out of.

A1-A2 (helpful now)

[Active Immersion] Memrise + Reading/Watching (comp input): keep working through vlarya's 10k deck. My routine is: speed review due cards; finish the 10 cards I started learning yesterday; start learning 10 new words today. That's my reps and warmup. Then, depending on my mood, I'll either read at least 30 mins of 'Дом, в котором...' (with or without audiobook, again depending on mood), or watch at least 30 mins of Max's intermediate vids w/ Russian subtitles. Sometimes in my free time I'll watch Russian lit or ДВК TikToks.

[Passive Immersion] Music/Audiobooks/Let's Plays: pretty self-explanatory. My passive input isn't as comprehensible rn, but I focus on things I enjoy. A let's play to fall asleep to, an audiobook while I'm doing something that requires on-and-off focus. The goal here is just to understand snatches of whatever I can, not so much the whole thing. Eventually, those snatches become more frequent.

I'm sure more dedicated study would help me a lot right now, but I don't really have the time or motivation to, so I don't try to force it.

Regarding Russian language learning YouTube channels, and why I only recommend Max:

I've found that most popular Russian learning YouTube channels feel... well, like school. They're not very interesting, they don't feel very organic. It doesn't feel like I'd be watching their videos for any other reason than learning Russian, which is bad for me, because I need to make Russian part of my life to have any motivation to do it.

So, the reason I like Max's channel so much is that he talks about things that're actually interesting and relevant to me. This video is a personal favourite, but he has a lot of videos about all sorts of topics--some of which I'm genuinely interested in. And his demeanour is more vlogger, less teacher. I like him as a person. (Protip: in this stage, don't be afraid to start his intermediate videos early, even if you don't feel you're there yet. It can still be very helpful to pick out the words you do know, and most of his videos have Russian and English subtitles if you're confused.)

Regarding how to find a good Russian book to read:

I... don't know. Reading ДВК with the audiobook really, really helped with my reading ability, and continues to. I can't state enough how important it was for me. But how to find a book that you can read over and over again... I don't know. I just know that Harry Potter would be absolute torture.

I've seen people say that you should start reading simple things, like children's stories. I personally haven't done much of that, because children's stories bore me out of my mind, but if you like them then I'd give that a shot. I've also heard that Chekhov's stories are good for beginners (I've heard that about Pushkin too, but I'm not sure how easy poetry would be to understand). Read-alongs on YouTube could be good too. Russian With Max has some old livestream read-alongs, and there are plenty of Russian read-alongs on YouTube.

Aside - if you're curious about 'Дом, в котором...', this fan-made trailer is the entire reason I picked up ДВК; the vibes captivated me and I had to know what it was about. So for anyone interested: if the trailer looks cool to you, you may like the book. The English translation is called 'The Gray House'. ДВК is fairly long, and different POV characters have differing levels of complexity with the language. The early chapters are the simpler ones, conveniently, so starting from the beginning should be fine. It's a slice-of-life type story, so easy to pick up and put down. I recommend the Князев audiobook, which is almost certainly the one you'll find if you search 'дом в котором аудиокнига' (it's a fan-made audiobook, so I don't think you can buy it, but like LOTR the fan version is by far the best).

Resources

r/languagelearning's resources page is a good place to skim through, see if anything sticks out. I recommend reading through their 'How to Teach Yourself a Foreign Language'. It's good for giving you an idea of how different people learn, different learning methods, how those methods work for others, and what might work for you.

Refold's Roadmap is very helpful for me to understand where I'm currently at, and what sort of activities it would be beneficial for me to be working on. I use their definition of levels (i.e. A1), so if I wasn't clear what I meant by A1 vs A2, reading through this could be helpful.

SRS:

Anki's for decks I have to create myself, or if I need a more specialised deck. I prefer Memrise for vocab, mainly for typing practise and the better UI. If you want to use Anki for vocab: Refold's ru15k deck is good for A2+. There are plenty of simple word decks to pick from for A0-A1. If you want to word mine to create your own Anki decks, see FLTR below.

Grammar:

New Penguin Russian Course is supposed to be good for grammar. I looked through it, and it does look good. If you understand grammar. I don't, but putting it here for those who do.

Reading:

u/La_Nuit_Americaine's post about reading helps me with motivation, and gave me some pointers about how to do it.

FLTR (Foreign Language Text Reader) is a good Windows program alternative to LingQ, if you can't or don't want to pay for LingQ's subscription. You have to input the word definitions yourself. I used Reverso and Yandex Translate together for this. Your word list can be exported to Anki.

ReadLang is supposed to be a good web-based alternative to LingQ (its free level is still usable, unlike LingQ's). I've not used it much, but it seems pretty good. My preference is using some translation extension that will let you click on a word and automatically translate it and move on quickly. Simple Translate on Firefox is what I use.

Video Media:

Language Reactor is a subtitle extension for YouTube, Netflix, etc. that has a bunch of cool features. I hardly use it because it's not on Firefox, but if you use Chrome, Opera, etc., it's really handy. For YouTube, it will translate the auto-generated subs for videos, so if you have a Russian video that only has Russian auto-generated subtitles, you can use Language Reactor to get English subtitles.

Other ADHD Accommodations:

Being kind to myself is very important. I can't make myself study by thinking "why can't you just" or "it's not that hard, what's wrong with you". I can't make myself study with positive words either, but using positive language helps my morale so that I have more motivation to study more often.

I use a different browser (Opera) solely for learning Russian. I chose Opera because Language Reactor works on it (would've used Chrome but Chrome is set up for work), but the general idea is having a separate space for Russian. I put Opera's language in Russian, and I keep all my Russian-learning tabs open there, so that when I'm ready to study it's as simple as opening Opera. Having it separated like that also helps my brain see active study as a task that can be opened and closed, rather than combined with everything else (Firefox).

I try to give myself enough options of things to do for immersion that it's always a choice. My brain has so many different states: motivated; unmotivated; foggy; clear; distracted; focused. Each one will want--or even need--something different. If it's a foggy day, I may be able to read along ДВК with an audiobook, but not able to read words without that help. If I'm distracted, TikToks may help more than reading; if I'm focused, reading may help more than TikToks. Or if I'm completely unmotivated, watching one of Max's vids is more passive than reading, therefore less painful.

I love Russian. Not much to this one. I don't think I could stick to learning a language I didn't love for the sake of the language itself.

I wasted time and motivation watching things I wasn't interested in, trying to find media in Russian that appealed to me. I don't recommend that. I don't know the alternative, but I always felt horrible about myself after. It's important to have media you like, but forcing it won't work. Russian movies don't interest me. Everyone else's favourite Russian YouTubers don't appeal to me at all. TikTok is much better for me in that regard, because I can search for specific fandoms that interest me. Luck seems to be the only thing that works for finding good YouTubers.

Textbooks are my kryptonite. I can't use them. They drain motivation so fast. If they work for you, that's great. If they don't, I don't know that forcing it is the solution. It wasn't for me.

I scroll language learning subreddits sometimes for motivation. It's not productive, generally. But it's fun. And I do get some ideas sometimes.

I've mostly accepted that my progress is going to be slower than others. I'm trying not to compare myself. I'm enjoying it now, mostly, learning slowly but learning, and each time I reaffirm that that's okay, it becomes truer.

[pattern-recognition]

Good starting points for socialist reading? Detailed medium form summaries? Skeptic debate between various forms, and between other theoretical systems? Please do recommend

For introductory texts, start with the basics. That means starting with the foundation laid out by Marx and Engels themselves, not some abridged text or modern compilation that seeks to re-explain scientific socialism out of a lack of agency for the modern reader (though some of these type are good, but I digress.)

For this i’d recommend:

- Marx, Engels. The Communist Manifesto (obviously)

- Engels. Socialism: Utopian and Scientific

- Marx, Engels. Wage-Labour and Capital/Value, Price, and Profit

The above three are very short, succinct, and informative. The latter two are woefully unrecognized as ideal texts for introductory socialism, and they were written for that explicit purpose.

After that, move on to more wholistic works that flesh out and elaborate upon the historical, material, circumstances that gave rise to the capitalist epoch and how and why they furnish the future conditions for a socialist system.

- Engels. Origin of the Family, State, and Private Property (Whatever copy you’ll procure will probably include his complimentary essay, The Part Played by Labour in the Transition from Ape to Man, which isn’t hugely beneficial for most discursive purposes but interesting, nonetheless.)

- Lenin. The State and Revolution

- Bukharin. Historical Materialism - A System of Sociology

All of Engels’ work, from his introductions to Marx’s texts, his input on the former, and his original treatises, are a wealth of information.

After the structure of dialectical materialism and the capitalist system are understood, I’d recommend works on how the former can/should be implemented and the latter’s historical reign of misery, as well as works addressing the pressing contradiction of imperialism and core-periphery subjugation. (You won’t find vocabulary like core/periphery/semi periphery in texts like this though, that wouldn’t come about until Immanuel Wallerstein outlined the World Systems Theory in his eponymous book. It’s not strictly a historical materialist work, and made by a bourgeois academic (who was the sociology professor of my sociology professor, which is fun I suppose) but is formative for much of contemporary sociological discourse).

- Lenin. Imperialism: The Highest Stage of Capitalism

- Lenin. What is to Be Done?

- Galeano. Open Viens of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent

- Said. Orientalism

Along the way, I strongly suggest you actually read Marx’s Capital in full, at least the first volume. It’s not as monolithic and inaccessible as some would lead you to believe, quite the opposite, and cannot be understated in its utility and insight.

- Marx. Capital: A Critique of the Political Economy, Volume I

Other recommendations:

- Marx. Critique of the Gotha Programme

- Marx. The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte

- Bevins. The Jakarta Method: Washington's Anticommunist Crusade and the Mass Murder Program that Shaped Our World

- Bevins. If We Burn: The Mass Protest Decade and the Missing Revolution

- Lenin. Critical Remarks on the National Question (1913) (Also, can be found in the recent compilation of Lenin’s work on the subject called Imperialism and the National Question)

- Debord. The Society if the Spectacle

- Benjamin. The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction

- Mishra. From the Ruins of Empire: The Revolt Against the West and the Remaking of Asia

Truth be told, I’m a grievously under-read marxist, and there are others on this site who could provide a more comprehensive syllabus. To half-assedly make up for it, here are some books i’ve been meaning to read/finish but haven’t gotten to it yet:

- Adorno, Horkheimer. Dialect of Enlightenment

- Marx. Capital, Volumes 2 and 3

- Strong. The Soviets Expected It

- Adorno, Bernstein. The Culture Industry

- Adorno. Minima Moralia

- Mao. On the Correct Handling of Contradictions Among the People

- Mao. On Protracted War

All of the aforementioned reading can be found online, for free and readily accessible, on places like Marxists.org, or as downloads from places like Libgen. If you want to read on your phone, download the file as an epub and use your device’s proprietary Books app or similar. If you want to read on a PC, I’d recommend a PDF for easiest navigation. If you want to pursue the latter but can only procure the former, you can use a epub reading program like SumatraPDF. If you’re a person who values a physical copy highly enough to warrant a purchase, I’d recommend ThriftBooks, though do be attentive to buying the most suitable copy of whatever material. Also, I’d be happy to send my copies to you or anyone else, via a google drive or telegram, if you feel like coming off anon.

As for “skeptic debate between various forms, and between various systems,” I can’t think of a standalone work with the principle task of dissecting and contrasting various stripes of marxism, but you’ll find as such permeating throughout almost all of these texts. The thing is, the fundamental material conditions haven’t shifted substantially since these were written, wether it be in Marx’s 19th century, Lenin’s 20th, or Bevins’ 21st. The old enemies remain enemies, the old arguments remain true. Dialectical materialism, scientific socialism, is a malleable system. It is a scientific method by which one can analyze the world, understand it with rational clarity, and come to conclusions on how to react to it and make predictions as to how things may unfold. This is the task assigned to any student of marxism. It is not dogma or a ecclesiastical canon, it is a tool.

After you’ve garnered your bachelor’s degree in scientific socialism you can move on to the postgraduate courses, such as chainsmoking cigarettes, caffeine and amphetamine addiction, alcoholism, and playing Disco Elysium.