Our Favorite Villains - Transcript
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Alex: Hi, I'm Alex
Nick: And I'm Nick.
Alex: And this is Ice Cream Parasocial, a podcast that covers as many different topics as there are flavors of ice cream. Today, we'll be talking about our favorite villains in media.
Nick: I want to start out by apologizing. If I sound like shit, I have a little bit of a cold.
Alex: Yeah, just a little bit.
Nick: We've been putting off recording for a couple of days, because I didn't want to record with a sick voice, but it has not gone away. So.
Alex: Yeah, this is about as good as it's been in a minute.
Nick: I'm sorry. We all have to deal with it. Uh
Alex: Yeah, this was after me putting enough Vick's Vaporub on you to like, drive every animal in the house to like, go away.
Yeah.
Nick: Yeah, if you don't follow me on Twitter, I posted some pictures of the dogs hiding their noses.
Alex: Yeah. They, uh, that was a lie, actually. They didn't leave. They just, um, buried their whole faces in the blankets. Cause they were just like, "I'm not going to get up. But I'm sure not happy about what's happening right now."
Nick: Yeah. Winston is a rough Collie and he's got his nose-- from the very top of his head all the way to the tip of his nose is 12 inches long, and he buried his nose all the way up to his little eyeballs under a blanket to get away from the Vick's smell, but like, didn't leave the bed that I was laying on.
So, well, he's not he's, you know, he's just really pretty. He's not very smart.
Alex: Yeah. He's just really loyal. He didn't want to leave your side during this trying time.
He's very loyal to a fault.
He'll do whatever it takes.
Nick: I'm pretty sure he's laying down just on the other side of this door to make sure that we're not dying.
Alex: Yeah, he's a good boy. He does his best every day. Oh goodness.
Nick: Uh, but yeah, uh, speaking of social media: on Instagram, by the time this episode is up, there will also be a picture on Instagram and Twitter for the official podcast. That is the best piece of art I have ever made in my life.
Alex: Oh yeah. It's a real delight.
Nick: And it has everything to do with this podcast. It's promotional for this episode and I love it. Please go check it out. I don't care if you follow us on--
Alex: This is a call to action to look at this picture only.
Nick: Yes. And, uh, if you're listening to us on a platform that you don't usually listen to us on because we're not on a whole lot, hopefully soon we'll be on everything.
But as of right now, we're on Anchor, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Breaker, Radio Public, and YouTube. So hopefully we'll be on Apple Podcasts soon, and then we'll start begging you to go and review us there.
Yes.
They have like, weeks to months of a waiting list because so many people are starting podcasts.
Alex: Yeah. Like I know of at least like three or four people that are starting podcasts like right now.
Nick: Yeah. Well, and the information that I had seen was even older about it, you know, taking a long time to get set up on Apple Podcasts, because so many people are starting podcasts and I'm like, I think that information was pre-quarantine. So I can't imagine how long it will take for us to get there, but hopefully it'll be soon. So.
Alex: Like, I'm pretty sure that these microphones that we're recording on were considered like, essential by Amazon as well, because we got them in like 24 hours.
Nick: Mhmm.
Alex: So podcasting is a very accessible thing to do at the moment.
Nick: Absolutely.
Alex: Oh, goodness. Especially with Anchor--
Nick: Especially with Anchor!
Alex: It's the easiest way to make a podcast!
Nick: Which you already heard our ad for the beginning of this.
Legitimately, lots of love to Anchor. It's made it really easy to do this.
Yeah, no joke. Uh, I love you Anchor.
Alex: Thanks, Anchor.
Nick: I would probably kill for you, but please don't read that in a court of law.
Alex: [Laughs]
Nick: Anyways. Uh, talking about villains.
Alex: So, speaking of villains.
Nick: [Laughs]
Speaking of villains, like me, who would kill.
Alex: [Laughs]
For anchor.fm.
Both: [Laughing]
Alex: Oh no. Are we going to be the first podcast to ever have an Anchor sponsorship revoked?
Nick: Eh, probably not the first.
Alex: Yeah. That's fair. Just one of them.
Nick: [Laughs]
Yeah. We'll be one of many, I'm sure.
Alex: One of many.
Nick: Um, so villains.
Alex: So villains.
Nick: [laughs] I think we have a lot of crossover in our favorite villains.
Alex: Probably.
Nick: Um, but I guess first let's talk about what makes a good villain.
Alex: Yes.
Nick: Because this is something that we talk about a lot. We'll pause a show in the middle and just be like, "I love them". Just like, "I love how well that scene was written" and like, "all of the meaning behind that".
Alex: Yeah. Oh my God.
Nick: I guess some previous context that may or may not be needed is about how we met and started dating.
Because we met at this, um, youth hangout for queer kids, and we had kind of, we-- we'd been like, kind of hanging out, but not really, um, because we were in the same groups together. And then we started talking about movies and cartoons, and realized that we had both wanted to go to college for film.
Alex: [Chuckles]
Nick: I think at that point I'd already dropped out, but you were still gung-ho to be going to school for film, and we were just like--
Alex: Oh yeah.
Nick: Oh, we're both going to school for film.
Alex: Oh yeah. Like you had dropped out of film school. I was not yet in film school, and I was on the precipice of dropping out of film school.
Both: [Laughing]
Alex: Truly a match made in heaven. I'm pretty sure the way that I picked you up was that I was like, "Oh yeah, I want your phone number, so that maybe we can work on a project sometime."
Nick: Oh yeah, that's right. It was doing this specifically like, oh you know, so we can like talk about movies and stuff.
Alex: So we can talk about movies.
Nick: Like, you know, maybe talk about getting into a project together. And now we've been married for almost two years, and we're finally starting a project, and it's not a movie.
Alex: Yeah.
Both: [Laughing]
Nick: We've been in a relationship for five years.
Alex: Yeah.
Nick: Almost.
Alex: Oh, god.
Nick: Yeah, we're like less than a month away from, from that. I'm just like, yeah. That's basically it now.
Alex: Yeah, pretty much.
Nick: Time is an illusion.
Alex: Yeah, pretty much.
Nick: So we like to talk about movies. We like to talk about cartoons. We like to talk about media in general, and we are awful to watch movies and TV shows with, because we will pause, and just talk for a half hour, and then play again, and totally forget where we were.
Alex: Insufferable.
Nick: ADHD is fun.
Alex: Oh yeah, absolutely. Like yesterday I think-- or no, day before yesterday-- we've been watching Korra, and, um, we like paused it like 10 minutes before the end of an episode or something and then just didn't finish it until the following day, during which we watched like seven more minutes of that same episode, paused it and then almost didn't finish it until I was like, "Oh no! We never finished that episode!"
Nick: Yeah, because we were just so into talking about the characters and, um, the villains and the anti heroes and all of that stuff. And I think that that one we're having a lot of trouble watching, just because if you don't know, the legend of Korra is a spinoff series of Avatar: The Last Airbender, and it follows what happens after the characters from Avatar: The Last Airbender have grown up and died off and it's about the whole next generation. So we have a lot to say.
Alex: So much.
Nick: And I think that we also have a lot to say about what other people have to say about it. So we'll just get like five minutes in and like something will happen.
And I'm just like, Oh my God, did you see that article where somebody said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we'll just go for like 20 minutes. I was just like, Oh, what were we doing?
Alex: Just shit talking avatar clickbait.
Nick: Yeah.
Alex: But what makes a good villain?
Nick: What makes a good villain? I feel like that's a really, really hard question to answer, because depending on the story, I feel different things make a good villain.
Alex: Right.
Nick: You know, I, something, another question that I put for like a-a conversation starter is does a good villain mean that they're are sympathetic villain? In some stories: yes. They need to be sympathetic for that to be brightening, any kind of, you know, without us just blowing them off.
Alex: Right.
Nick: But in other stories, I feel like if they were sympathetic, Then the protagonist would just kind of get blown off because it's like, Oh, well, I don't know. You know?
Alex: Yeah. Yeah, like I feel like it's almost relational to the protagonist in a certain kind of way where it's like, Oh, you know, I definitely have like my pieces of media where it's like the characters themselves aren't super deep.
Um, and like, I can absolutely admit that where it's just like, Oh yeah, like, I liked this villain because they look cool and they have a good time, but the protagonists in those pieces of media also tend to be a little bit flat.
Um, and I think that that's totally fine, but then like the villains that tend to be in the media that I like that is uh, more like complex. That's also how the protagonists are, is like, there's a lot of nuance to them.
Nick: Right.
Alex: Um, so I think you really have it like spot on there. It's just like what, what's the rest of the tone, like?
Nick: Right. You know? 'Cause one of the villains that I have on here is Count Olaf as one of my favorite villains-
Alex: Oooh, yes!
Nick: -Because he's not sympathetic. You want to throat punch him.
Alex: Oh, he sucks.
Nick: And just like move on with your life, you know, but he still has a-a symbolism and he's the main villain of that story. But by no means, is he the only villain in that story, you know, And he just reminds me of such a classic villain that is evil for one reason, and one reason only. And that is his own personal gain.
Alex: Yes.
Nick: You know?
Alex: Yes. And I kind of liked that you put them on there too, because I feel like with Count Olaf, he's definitely like a character with a lot of depth, but not out of like any sort of like a sympathetic or like deep backstory thing, but just because there's so much intrigue around him. And, uh, just that, it's just like, how does he do the shit that he does, you know?
Nick: Right. Well, and I think that he's a really, really great villain too, because of what he means to the story, you know? You've got these brilliant, genius children that are surrounded by idiot adults.
Alex: Oh yeah.
Nick: You know, and having the tragic backstory that I have, you know, I have definitely had it where, when I was a kid, I would try to talk to an adult about another adult doing something bad.
And while they might be able to be like "Oh yeah, like that is bad" after a while of talking.
Alex: Yeah.
Nick: When the person would go through and do it again, they'd be like "Oh no, they're, they're different." Or like "That's not them." And, you know, Count Olaf, shows it in a very goofy way with his different get-ups and like all of this stuff, but watching it, you know, definitely kind of triggered memories, but not in like a, not in the like bad triggered, you know, but it was kind of like, it definitely made me think of like how apt of a-a character that is, you know, for these kids.
I-I am by no means comparing myself to those children who are absolute geniuses, but it's definitely, I can imagine being a kid or being below 18-
Alex: yeah.
Nick: -And watching that and being like, yeah, it's so obvious, you know, and I definitely would love to see what parents watching that think about that. You know? I-I wonder how many conversations it started or how many thoughts it started about believing your kids, even when it doesn't seem super obvious to you that this person is bad or like that this person is finding different ways around things to hurt your kid.
Alex: Right.
Nick: But it's like put it in such a goofy way that's like really entertaining to watch. [laughs] And so I'm just like, that's, I just love Count Olaf as a villain because he starts so many conversations.
Alex: God, yeah. That is such a good point.
Nick: So I guess that's for me, that's what-that's kind of the thread between all of my favorite villains is that they start really good conversations.
Alex: Oh my gosh. I feel like that is such a good way of hitting the nail on the head with this kind of thing. I feel like sometimes a good villain is almost representational. Um, I feel like on the surface Count Olaf is, uh, sort of one of the goofiest, two dimensional villains that you can think of,
Nick: Right.
Alex: But he definitely is like one of the best villains that I can think of for that exact reason, especially for children who do grow up with a lot of like trauma and that kind of nature, and like grow up in like the system, how hard it is for kids in general to bring cases against like adults in their lives.
Um, yeah, God, that is such a good point. I really love that.
Nick: Right. And I really love that, like, until you start thinking of it that way, you probably don't think of him as being that great of a villain, you know, even putting him on here. He was one of the last ones that I added to my list and I quote,
"putting him next to the others it's hard to see him being on the same level and perhaps he's not, but I just, I just have to give love to a villain that is so classic,"
but, you know, actually talking it through beyond the couple of notes that I put down, I'm like, Yeah, no, he is a fucking fantastic villain,
Alex: Right? Like pretty S tier, you know, like not necessarily like a sympathetic villain or something or somebody that you would like want to hang out with, but like very classically, like-
Nick: Just Grade-A bad guy.
Alex: Just good, good, bad guy.
Nick: [laughs] Alright, you want to talk about one of yours?
Alex: Sure thing!
Nick: I feel like we talked about Olaf for three years.
Alex: Absolutely. Cause I would love to follow up on that one with sort of my analog for that: um, another person that I don't find super sympathetic. Uh, but I do find to be a pretty good villain, which is The Handler from The Umbrella Academy.
Which, um, I'm trying to figure out how much to talk about her.
I'm going to try and stay away from plot as much as possible.
Nick: Good luck.
Alex: Um, just for people that haven't watched season two yet.
Right.
But just like, I feel like she's also someone that is so representational of like literal systems.
Nick: Right!
Alex: Um, and also someone that has put so much of herself into the establishment and like so much faith into it that it's kind of like consumed her in this way that she kind of genuinely thinks that she's doing the thing that she's supposed to be doing, that's like better for everyone. Um, and season two it's a little bit, uh, kind of on the fence about that one, but especially in like season one and early season two, I love a good villain that mirrors people that you might meet.
Nick: Right, absolutely.
Alex: Like, Oh, we love a good bad boss [laughs]
Nick: Yeah, she definitely was just kind of in season one, a big stand in for just like the world's shittiest boss that, you know, will actually slit your throat if you don't get things done on time.
But I think that even still in season two, she holds some of that capitalism propaganda kind of thing of she loses her position and, and really loses her identity and is willing to do whatever it takes to not only get her position back, but go even further. And I feel like that's really, I hate to say apt again, but apt for how capitalism kind of makes us all be.
Alex: Yeah!
Nick: You have to work as hard as you can to get all the way up the ranks. And you know, you slip up once, maybe twice and you're demoted and everything goes downhill and you either find a way to deal with that or you don't. And. You, you know, you spiral. And I think that there's so much, especially in the United States where we are, there's this really intense correlation between your job and your identity?
Alex: Yes!
Nick: I feel like, especially since we got married, whenever I talk about you. Just cause you know, you come up more in conversations because people like to call you my other half. And like, that's one of the first things that comes up after I tell people your name is "what do they do?" And it's really hard to have hobbies outside of a job.
Alex: Exactly.
Nick: Especially, in the generation that we're in. If you do have a hobby outside of a job, you're trying to make it become your job.
Alex: Exactly.
Nick: And I feel like that's a lot kind of how she seemed to be, was just this, her identity was very, very intertwined with her job. And so it, to her, it must've felt like her identity got stripped away.
And then she was like, okay, well, I don't like that powerlessness. So I'm going to flip it around.
Alex: Exactly, exactly. And like, that's something that I think is so interesting with the whole commission and that I love so much that originally that was just kind of like a funny kind of gag about the show during- I'm gonna talk a little bit about season one since it's been out for a minute.
Nick: Yeah, it's been out for over a year.
Alex: And I just think it's so interesting seeing someone like Hazel compared to like the handler, um, when it comes to like when your job starts to turn against you. And just kind of, especially with the handler, what I thought was so interesting about her, especially like hearing you talk about it. Um, the flip in season two makes a lot of sense to me because of the way that capitalism is talked about is like this huge, like meritocracy and just sort of like, Oh, you're supposed to get what you work for.
And like, you know, this like thing happens to her and, uh, she expects to be welcomed back and she made this huge, like sacrifice for the commission and to just kind of deal with what she dealt with. Then it's like, of course, she's going to kind of, have a reaction to it. And it's really interesting seeing the ways that different people react to things like that, because I feel like that's a very much a moment where either it radicalizes you or you like latch on harder ever until the establishment.
And she kind of did both.
Nick: Yeah. Somehow she did both in all of the worst ways,
Alex: Literally.
Nick: And talking about things now, 'cause we hadn't really gotten into this conversation too, too much because we wanted to have this conversation on the podcast.
Alex: Yes.
Nick: And until this conversation, I didn't sympathize with her at all.
I was just like, yeah, I know she's 100% bad. Like, well, nobody is a hundred percent bad. She's like 99% bad. And so I really don't sympathize with her, but thinking of it and talking like this now, I'm like well, you know what, actually,
Alex: right.
Nick: You know, if I had a job and I had to leave for reasons and I came back and they were like, Oh yeah, you're demoted. I would be pissed. I would lose my ever loving mind!
Alex: Oh yeah.
Nick: I wouldn't go to the links that she does, but that's because in, uh, in our universe, jail exists
Alex: [laughs]
Nick: and I don't want to go there!
Alex: Would not like to go to real jail.
Nick: Would not like to go to real jail! [laughs]
Alex: Oh gosh. So that was definitely my, a big one for me was the handler. I have a lot of feelings about her.
Nick: Right? Since we're on the umbrella Academy, do you want to go to your other one?
Alex: Yes. We just finished up watching it. So that's why I have so many from them.
Nick: Yeah, a lot of these favorite villains, uh, I've mentioned in the previous episode that I have a bad memory and I'm probably going to mention it in every episode because I have a bad memory.
Uh, But a lot of these are shows that I just watched so they're my favorite villains right now. In two months, they'll be different. And probably two months ago they were totally different. Um, a lot of these shows are just shows that we recently watched. And if I was able to unlock all of my memory, they would probably be completely different, you know?
So. Don't come at me for my favorite villains. Don't be like, how could you not talk about XYZ villain? They're the best one that was ever made.
Alex: Right? Like, I'm just like, I've consumed so much media in my lifetime. I don't know.
Nick: I've consumed so much media in the last couple of months.
Alex: Yeah.
Nick: What else was I supposed to do?
Alex: Right?
Nick: I'm not going outside.
Alex: [laughs] Right. No. Yeah. I'm absolutely the same. Like so many of mine are things that I've watched recently. So grain of salt, but, um, one of my favorite recent villi-villians, uh, one of my favorite recent villians is Vanya Hargreeves. [laughs]
Oh my God. I live and die for Vanya Hargreeves.
Nick: That one, we really probably shouldn't get too much into what happens in season two, because if we talk about anything about season two, it'll be a spoiler.
Alex: I can and will cry.
Both: [laugh]
Alex: That's a promise and a threat. [laughs]
Nick: But, at this point, if you haven't seen season one, I just I'm so sorry at this point, like that's your bad.
It was one of, it's been in the top 10 on Netflix for forever. Season one came out over a year ago. I'm sorry. Go watch it before we ruin it. Just pause this, leave, come back. We'll be waiting. Okay. Are you back now? Let's talk about Vanya Hargreaves.
Alex: Let's talk about her. She's the best.
Nick: [laughs]
Alex: Oh my God. I love her so much because like I love a good heel turn so much.
Um, and I think they did it really well with her, um, because I love that they don't pull any fucking punches. Um, like the stuff that she does is pretty heinous, but also I love that they don't shy away from the fact that like, pretty much at every turn when things go wrong with her, the obvious option, and the thing that pretty much all of the siblings and everyone, like, even not the siblings agrees, is like the best intervention is like rehabilitation. Um, and like just fucking talking to her and being nice to her. And I love it when a show. Is willing to not just be like, Oh yeah, this person became a villain, but you're still supposed to like them.
So the most they're going to do is like kind of shove someone a little bit. Like, no, she like. I dunno, she like kills people like multiple people. And like, one of them is like a nice old man, like, you know,
Nick: a nice old monkey
Alex: a nice old monkey, like he's adorable and she just like- Oh, it's brutal. But like, At pretty much every turn, you still sympathize with her because of the way that they play out what she's going through.
I don't know if that's a thing that everyone sympathizes with, but I definitely do.
Nick: Yeah, absolutely. Like for me the first time that I watched it through, when it first came out, I didn't see any of it coming the second time I knew it was coming and I still was like, "Oh my God, that's right!" And even the third time when I finally like watched it with you, I knew! I just watched it like a week before.
Alex: Right.
Nick: And I was just like, Oh, my God. I forgot already.
Alex: That's cold.
Nick: But again, with my personal tragic backstory, I get it, man. If I had those powers, I get it. I would snap. You know again, please don't play this episode in a court of law.
Both: [laugh]
Alex: After I have snapped, please don't-
Nick: After I have snapped. Uh, can somebody please go through and scrub this episode from the internet? [laughs]
Um, but, you know, with having all of her memories erased from her childhood and having them all come rushing back at once and also then, you know, turning around and asking your family for forgiveness, for the bad things that you've done since realizing that, that you didn't have any of these memories as a kid.
And. You know, after having been manipulated and "dealing" with said manipulator, uh, and coming back to like beg for forgiveness and like talk. And having them lock you up because they're scared of you. I would have snapped. I would have snapped so much sooner, probably, you know,
Alex: Oh my God. I ooh that whole scene, I- just like ask Nick. I was dying because like, Oh my God, The whole, like fact that the, um, the little like jail cell thing that she's in is like soundproofed, killed me because it really. I feel like did extra, just in the fact that, uh, like everyone, except for Luther basically was on the side of like, "Hey, no, she's our sister. We need to let her out and talk to her because she's still our sister." And like, she cries at bugs dying. Like, are you kidding me? Like she was going through something, but like, she can't hear any of that. All she sees is people yelling and she's like in a little cage.
Nick: Right. She can't hear any of that.
And also at the end, all of them decide to side with Luther anyways, you know, they're not happy about it, but they leave her in there. So, you know, she can't understand that they ha- they were arguing for her and that, you know, Luther kind of overpowered them. But I also think that it's really funny because in that scene, that was the most, um, diplomatic argument that they'd had all season, you know, like Diego almost killed Luther in episode one, but if you'll notice he didn't draw a weapon at all in that episode against Luther-
Alex: Rude!
Nick: -Like suddenly they're just talking?
Alex: [scoffs] Bad timing.
Nick: Right. You know? So like, of course she's gonna snap. And so I feel like she is an incredibly sympathetic villain. And I love her and I just... [chuckles]
Alex: Right, I just feel like it's so masterful that you can make a villain that's like that sympathetic and also like, so distructive.
Nick: Just absolutely brutal.
Alex: Just so brutal. Oh my God. I love her so much. And I feel like this is a good introduction to what. I talk about as my, you know, how some people have like, um, fantasy football leagues?
Nick: Yeah. [laughs]
Alex: I have a uh, fantasy DBT group. Um, because- [laughs] I am a big fan of dialectical behavior therapy. And, um, I'm not going to give like a whole thing on that, but basically like for those who don't know, uh, it's a therapy that's largely geared towards people who have been through like, traumatic situations.
And a lot of the time, uh, when we're watching a piece of media, I'll do the, like, pausing it to talk for like half an hour thing, except I'll like, pause it and I'll turn to Nick and I'll be like, I have a new person that I want to invite to my fantasy DBT group. [both laugh] And Vanya is definitely in the fantasy DBT group.
Nick: Oh yeah. Absolutely.
Alex: Along with several others on this list you will meet soon.
Nick: Yeah. I think a couple on my list too. You're just like, come on, man. Come on.
Alex: You're invited. I believe in you.
Nick: Yeah. I think that a couple that you really want to be in your DBT group... Some that kind of started your fantasy DBT group where Zuko and Azula.
Alex: Yes!
Nick: And I think that it's really funny because on my list I have Azula. And on yours you have Zuko,
Alex: I sure do.
Nick: Uh, just since we've been talking about yours for a minute, I'll I'll go ahead and talk about Azula.
Alex: Hell yeah.
Nick: Uh, she's very arguably a sympathetic villain.
Alex: Yes!
Nick: And I think that following up after Vanya, I can't say that Vanya is simpathetic, and Azula's not, you know, you know, she has some very serious, very obvious mental health issues, you know, in the last couple of episodes, there's a point where even Zuko kind of is like, Oh, she's kind of lost it. And, I love that because he acts like it's so minimal how much she's lost it. And meanwhile, she's like over there, like sweating and panting and she's got the most fucked up haircut. Cause she gave herself- [laughs]
Alex: She has like the full like breakdown bangs and everything. Like we've all been there.
Nick: [laughs] Right, um, and I feel like with those two, it brings up a very intense conversation about nature versus nurture because they're siblings, they were raised by the same parents, you know, they both had the same mom, the same dad.
And so I feel like it's easy to say, Oh, well, Zukos nature is to be a good guy. And that's why he ended up a good guy. And Azula his nature is just to be uh, crazy, I guess, but. I feel like it's still a lot: nurture because Zuko had such a more intense, close relationship with his mother who was the nice one. And it seemed like Azula had a lot more of a relationship with her father who was an asshole.
Alex: Right.
Nick: And, you know, that's not saying that, Oh, well, if you have a mother figure in your life, then you're just going to turn out to be a good guy. And you know, if you more only have a father figure, then you're just going to be a little asshole. That's not it. The characters were-
Alex: Yeah. Absolutely.
Nick: You know, down to the point of like Zuko and Azula's grandpa on their mom's side-or their great grandpa on their mom's side was avatar Roku. So like she was meant to be their good half and the dad was meant to come from the bad half: big, huge air quotes on good and bad, but, you know, uh, And something else with Azula that I definitely can kind of relate to is that she was born a prodigy.
Alex: Yeah!
Nick: And that's something that got mentioned is, you know, at first, when she was young, she didn't have to work for her fire bending skills, she just had them. And, you know, as someone who was the smart kid, when I was younger and like got put into all of these like big, smart kid classes and saw the other kids that got put into the big smart kid classes, you kind of go one of two ways where either like you start pushing yourself to insanity, to continue being the smart kid and the prodigy, and like still be seen as perfect because you've been kind of bestowed with this perfect-ness and, you know, everybody sees from you and you feel you have to keep up; or you get totally overloaded and give up, I got totally overloaded and gave up. Azula got obsessed with that perfection because she was so young.
Alex: Yeah.
Nick: When she got, uh, You know, when she was already being told, Oh, you're a prodigy. You did it perfectly like you're so much better than your older brother. And, you know, so I think that following that path of perfection definitely led her to having that breakdown, you know, and not being able to have genuine friends.
Because she was so obsessed with being seen as like the most perfect and the most powerful, you know, especially with her dad being, being in, wanting to be the most powerful man in the world. How do you follow that up?
Alex: Exactly.
Nick: Especially with your brother being an outcast and totally banished and like, you know, seen as a loser, you have to work so hard for people to not think that you're going down that same path as your stinky little brother, you know?
Both: [laugh]
Alex: Exactly. Yeah. And I feel like even like, from the perspective of like, you know, when she kind of goes off the rails as well, and just kind of thinking about the things that sorta lead up to that and like the family dynamics and all of that, and just like. How much- I don't know. I found a lot of like sympathy with her and like her family dynamics, especially with Zuko where like in their own way- like, you can very much tell that, like, she just kinda wants to have like a family, but she doesn't totally know what that is supposed to look like in a lot of ways. Like, not like she just wants that, but like, I feel like in a lot of ways she does want that. It was just like, "you should come back and live with us."
But like she doesn't, she's a really classic example, I feel like, of people use the tools that they have in order to navigate their lives and like the things that she's been shown her whole life have been, you know, like manipulation and just like shows of force and things. So it's like in order to get like love, which is something and like, Being able to be around like her brother again, like she does all these things that like, as we're watching it for the first time, we're just like, Oh God, like that's so shitty.
And it is shitty, but it's like, kind of thinking about it again. And like seeing her, especially in like season three, like ah, damn , this is just sort of what she knows how to do. And she might not even totally know she's doing it.
Nick: Right. You know, because, with the adults that she had in her life, especially with her and Zuko's mom leaving when she did, I mean, not that she had a choice. Zuko had a lot more time with their mom who was the good one, but then Azula was so much younger. I think that there, I think there's a point where she talks about like, not even remembering what their mom looks like.
Alex: I want to say so.
Nick: You know, so of course, like all she knows is her crazy ass dad and her crazy ass grandpa.
And she knows that her dad killed her grandpa to get power, you know, and seeing him get that power through brute force and through manipulation. How else is she supposed to, you know, go about? And I think that Zuko then in the beginning definitely shows that same, but he's so blessed with having his uncle Iroh to guide him and show him that that's not how it's done, but Azula doesn't get that.
And it's, it's really easy to sympathize her thinking sympathize with her. Thinking about those specific things, but I feel like it's also really hard because she did have opportunities to, fix that and-and be able to think critically about things. And she just chose not to. And I, and I don't know, i-it's one of those things where like, it's just hard, you know,
Alex: Mhmm.
Nick: Like I understand why she did everything that she did. But then there's just so much to me, that's like, come on you could've just...
Alex: Right. Like, come on, man.
Nick: You know, like your friends turned against you to join the other side. Like that could have been your opportunity, man. And it's like for the show, I'm so glad that they didn't then have her turn around and be the good guy because that would have been so annoying if every single bad guy who was like, Oh, actually it's time for my redemption arc now.
Alex: I'm radio rebel! [ laughs]
Nick: I'm radio rebel! I'm lemonade mouth! [laughs] But just thinking about like, if she were a real person, I'm like, come on, man. You could have.
Alex: Right. Absolutely.
Nick: I'm just like, you're going to continue to be on the side that everyone that it seems like you do love and care about in your own way is against?
Alex: Like, I feel like she reminds me a lot in that very same way of, um, like kind of what we're talking about with the handler of just like, what happens when the thing that, you know, Kind of turns against you and is like destabilized and it's just like, do you like cling on for dear life or do you like jump ship?
And it's just like, God does she cling on for dear life!
Nick: Oh, she clings on for dear life. Meanwhile, Zuko, you know, jumped ship and realizes that, uh, there's better things for him to do then try to please his father and family, and like,
Alex: yeah,
Nick: the sweet, awkward boy,
Alex: My sweet, sweet boy, God, I love him so much. [Nick laughs]
Oh my goodness. Like it's so funny because I'm just like, do all of the villains that I like come in twos and like follow a pattern because now I'm just like, yeah. So I like the handler and Vanya and then it was just like, yeah. And then Azula and Zuko. And I'm just like, yeah. So then you have the one that's like very establishment and kind of like loses it.
And then you have the one that like, kind of, uh, [laughs] Is that is like very sympathetic and, um, I'm very proud of them for going as hard as they did. Uh, but it still manages to remain sympathetic [both laugh] like that's something that I also really appreciate with them writing Zuko is that like, he didn't really go to being like on Aang's side until , like way towards the end. Um, despite the amount of times during the show that you're like, okay, this is the time I'm so ready. It's all happening. It's gonna happen. Um, but it doesn't, and it's always so frustrating, but again, it's one of those things where I'm kinda like glad that they waited until it made the most sense, because again, it's like you live your whole life, just kind of knowing this one thing and just kind of in pursuit of this singular goal, that your brain is just kind of structured around it.
And like, that's another thing that I love so much that like, while I was watching it, I was like, Oh, that's kind of like, Interesting that they did that, but the more I think about it, um, the more I appreciate it is like the whole like, breakdown that he has.
Nick: right where he like gets really sick?
Alex: Yeah, where he gets really sick and just kind of is like- I think he's like passed out even, or just like dang near for like several days, because of just like this moral decision.
Like, you know, I feel like that's something that I'm really glad that they gave him credit for. Um, and I feel like also kind of speaks to maybe some of why Azula didn't like defect or like why things like hit her as hard as they did. It was just sort of like how much this family has like told them that the things that they are doing is like the right way to be, that it's just like being physically ill, you know?
Nick: Right, absolutely.
Alex: And I'm just like, man, I love this 'lil guy so much and just kind of like watching him learn to navigate the world is so fascinating. And he's just such a teen.
Nick: Right?
Alex: I love villains that you can just very much see the aspects of them beyond, um, like what makes them like a villain. He's very much a teen boy. I love that about him so much.
Nick: Yeah. I think that that's something else that makes him a really, really good villain, and then hero, is that being young adults, I feel like- being young adults that have done not great things ourselves, like not as bad as them,
Alex: [chuckles] yeah
Nick: But you know, like, being a teenager and just wanting to be accepted and just wanting love and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And being willing to do whatever that takes and just following what your parents and like older people have told you is like how things are, and then starting to get older and realizing that that's not how it has to be, you know. And I feel like it really strikes a chord, you know, thinking about Zuko and then thinking about growing through your teens and like young adult stages of like everything that you do and everything that you think and say is dictated by authority figures in your life. And then kind of moving on to having less and less of those authority figures being authority figures, you know, even if they're still there. Kind of starting to be able to think for yourself and realize things and it really can make you physically sick to kind of make that change, you know? And for real humans, that change is really, really slow. For him, that kind of like s- that switch flipped really fast.
And so that sickness really got him.
Alex: Absolutely.
Nick: Yeah. I think that it's really incredible to watch it and see this like thing that I know that I've gone through. And I feel like a lot of people have gone through with, you know, growing up and getting a little bit older. I say that like, I'm super old, but like-
Alex: Ancient.
Nick: -Getting into the more, like getting into your early twenties and like. Really finally becoming an adult, even though there's never a point where you like really are an adult.
Alex: Yes.
Nick: I keep thinking every year, like this is the year somebody that like, people are gonna see me as an adult, but then everybody else also gets a year older and they're like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, honey, you're still a baby, and I'm like, shit! [laughs]
Alex: Oh my god [laughs]
Nick: But,you know, I don't know. [laughs]
Alex: That is so real. Like the only people that see you as an adult are like teenagers.
Nick: Right.
Alex: And it's just like "oh man, still?"
Nick: Right and I'm just like your babies though! [both laugh] Um, but just watching that and it feels very real that he got sick and it, it I'm really glad that that was there. [chuckles]
Alex: Mhmm. Big, agree.
Nick: You know, it's really almost frustrating when villains don't have that kind of like big averse reaction when they have a redemption arc where they're just like, "I'm cool now!"
Alex: No, it's cool now though.
Nick: Oh, no, we're good. We're good, actually,
Alex: actually I'm cool now.
Nick: [laughs] So speaking of villains that turn around-that just kind of like all of a sudden they're like fine now.
Alex: Surprise!
Nick: Surprise! I would love to talk about the diamonds from Steven universe. I, they are some of the most controversial villains.
Alex: Yeah.
Nick: But I love them all four of them [Alex chuckles] because, the reason that they're so controversial is because it's so easy to make them a stand-in for whatever you want them to be.
Alex: It really is.
Nick: And that's why I love them, you know, and for me, they always represented family. And to me that meant that always like meant something really deep because. [chuckles] Having my tragic backstory [Alex laughs] and having like, I didn't have great parents and they reminded me so much of that kind of thing of, you know, the pivotal episode when white diamond tries to pull pink diamond out of Steven, you know, and is like screaming and crying about how his name isn't Steven, it's Pink. He'll always be Pink, no matter what he tries to do. And like talking about how he's being silly for acting like this and talking about, uh, how he's acting like a spoiled child and like how she's so over all of his tantrums while she's throwing a huge tantrum.
Alex: Literal tantrum,
Nick: A literal tantrum. And I, I, I know that he has like that perfect line that I can't remember now, and I should have looked it up, but of just like "Oh, well, If I'm a spoiled little brat, that's throwing a tantrum then, uh, what are you?" I think that it is really frustrating that their redemption just kind of flipped like that really fast, but also it was very obvious that the show was coming to a close.
Alex: [chuckles] Yeah...
Nick: So I don't know that they could have done it any slower, but I think that it's also one of those things where. They realized all of the harm that they'd done. And so I think that making that flip was really still pretty realistic. And really necessary that it had to, it had to happen. And I think that it's also really easy to say that it happened super, super fast because we ha- we got that time skip and I don't know, it's just... and I, I love them as villains, even because after their redemption, they're still fucking awful, but they're trying, and they have to be reminded because I know you haven't seen the last, er-because I know that you watched the movie, but I don't, you haven't seen any of Steven universe future. Um, right?
Alex: I don't believe so, no.
Nick: Yeah. Uh, in the, or I can't remember if it's a movie or if it's Steven universe future, but they're still like slipping up and like calling him Pink and like, you know, and, calling other gems "lower life forms" still. And, but I think that it was really important to show that because they needed to grow.
And I think that that was some criticism that they got was that they flipped so fast that they didn't actually like grow. And then the show writers were just like, Oh, well just, just fucking wait a second. [both laugh] I love that they were able to make up and kind of fix things, but still show that they were growing and changing and they were still learning.
I also really love what they did with their redemption and forgiveness arc, where they let Steven still, you know, kind of talk to them and teach them and be civil with them without just kind of giving into their every whim and, you know, being overly nice to them in the name of forgiveness, because that is definitely something that I've seen in like different villain redemption tropes before is like, " Oh, well all is forgiven. We're good." And it's like, uh, all might be forgiven, but we are not good.
Alex: We are certainly not good.
Nick: And the diamonds having this idea of like, "Oh, we're forgiven and everything's good." And having Steven say "no, you're mostly forgiven. But we're not good. You still have a lot to learn and a lot to work on." And I think that that's really, really important to have a kid's show.
Alex: Yes, especially in the context of like, kind of talking about those sorts of relationships is like, I think a lot of the time where like inclined to give people a pass just for trying. [chuckles]
Nick: Right.
Alex: When it's like, you know, people should still be held accountable, even if it's like also being gentle. You know, even if it's like, I do care about you and I want you to do better. And that's why I am challenging you instead of just being like, Oh yeah, that's just how it is sometimes anyways, the past is the past, that's water under the bridge, goodbye! You know?
Nick: Right. Just like. Ah yeah, like you're still saying kind of crappy stuff, but like, you know, you're not like actually killing people anymore, so it's fine.
Alex: So I'm pretty sure we're good actually. [both laugh]
Nick: But yeah, I, I love them because they can stand in for so much because like, you know, for the people where it, they don't see them as like being stand-ins for fam- for shitty family members, they do see them as like politicians or capitalism or society at large. And I think that that's what makes them so great is that no matter what you see them as they still piss you off.
Alex: [laughs] That is so real.
Nick: Y'know, and even with pink diamond, like so far, we've only really talked about the other three, but like pink diamond is an incredible villain, because you, even after you learn about her being a villain, there's still so much of you that loves her because you've known her as this - as Rose this whole time. And this, this idealized different version of her that had changed.
So it's really easy to be like, Oh no, but like, That's Rose she's changed. She's different, but like there's still all of these moments and full episodes that show that like, even though she had grown and changed, there was so much that she still needed to do to grow and change into like being the best version of herself that she could be.
Alex: Right.
Nick: Which was Steven, you know, and I saw a theory a while back about it that was talking about that, about how her realizing that she needed to grow and change made her Rose, and then realizing that she had grown and changed as much as she could as Rose is what made her decide to have Steven and like become part of Steven because she'd done all that she could as, you know, what she was.
And that is such an incredible redemption, you know, for her, while also still being able to understand that there was never really a point where she was the good guy.
Alex: Right. Exactly.
Nick: You know, and they go into it in Steven Universe Future, where Steven has to deal with a lot of that stuff where it's like, he spent his whole life thinking that he was the good guy and being the good guy that it kind of came back to bite him in the ass, you know, as he got older and like starting to actually have to deal with things and kind of becoming the villain in his own story. And I just, ah I love it so much. [laughs]
Alex: Oh my Gosh.
Nick: Even though people wanna like, not love it. I'm just, I do. [both laugh]
Alex: Oh man, I really need to watch Steven Universe Future now cause that sounds really good.
Nick: I think that everybody should watch it, but yeah, like all of the Diamonds are such good villains because even with Pink, you know, just like with Azula you can understand where a lot of her anger and issues stemmed from. And even though you wish over and over again, that she would just fucking learn and do better, you can see where she just can't.
Alex: Right, where it's just like ingrained.
Nick: Right, where it's just so ingrained that like, pretty much the only thing that she can do is completely change into a different person, you know? And it's just, I love it. I love it. I love it. [both laugh]
Alex: Hell yeah.
Nick: I think that that's about all I can say about the diamonds right now.
Alex: That's so good.
Nick: Cause it's been, it's been a while since I've seen Steven Universe, so it's not fresh on my mind, but I know that I love them as villains.
Alex: Exactly, yeah. Just like one of those things where it's just like, "I don't know exactly how I feel, but I know that it's positive." [laughs]
Nick: Right, I absolutely should have used this episode as a reason to go back and binge watch everything.
Alex: [laughs] I'm doing research for the podcast.
Nick: Right. And I definitely did go back and kind of like do quote unquote "research" for this, uh, for some stuff but I thought that I would just kind of, for some reason, I thought that I would just kind of like remember more stuff as I went and I just didn't.
Alex: Imagine having a working memory.
Nick: Imagine.
Alex: Oh, gosh.
Nick: But yeah, you've got two that I am very excited to talk about.
Alex: Oh yeah, I sure do. Because I have, um, everyone's favorite icy boy. [laughs]
Nick: Everyone's favorite villain that is awful at being a villain.
Alex: He's real bad at it. Like I-- [laughs]-- um, the Ice Cream-- "Ice Cream"...?
Nick: The Ice Cream!
Alex: The Ice Cream Parasocial.
Nick: Welcome to our podcast, The Ice Cream, and--
Alex: The Ice Cream-- Ice Cream Parasocial is very bad at being a villain. [laughs]
I started to say at being a podcast. I hope we're not that bad at being a podcast yet.
Nick: I mean, we're only at episode two, so we're kind of bad at being a podcast.
Alex: Yeah. Like it hasn't happened.
Nick: Episode two is always bad at being a podcast.
Alex: But, uh, but yeah, no, the Ice King , from Adventure Time, Simon Petrikov. I love, I love him so much. Cause like, talk about a fucking 2D villain that ended up becoming extremely 3D while also still managing to be extremely 2D.
Nick: Right.
Alex: Oh my gosh. Um, like the first few episodes where you start to kind of figure out like who he is. And like, his backstory are so interesting because I feel like a lot of the things that I think are so fascinating about him are sort of like, I don't know. It like really makes you think a lot about like personality, I guess, and just brains and what makes us... us.
Nick: Mhmm.
Alex: And just like the amount of times that people will have interactions with him , who know him as Simon and like knew him, before he was the Ice King, who kind of like want that from him. And like, he can't really give that to them. And it's like frustrating for everyone involved.
Nick: Right.
Alex: And it's just so like interesting to kind of see those interactions happen. And just kind of like... when I was watching through Adventure Time and a lot of these episodes, uh, for the first time, going into my tragic backstory ever so slightly--
Both: [Laughing]
Alex: Uh, just dealing with a lot of mental health stuff, for myself and for just like some people in my life, it really was like cathartic, I guess, uh, to just sort of see a character that felt so representational of just the sort of like, not knowing who someone very familiar is. And almost then coming back around to like, love the new person anyways.
Nick: Absolutely.
Alex: Which I think is something that I do really appreciate a lot about adventure time. Is that in the end, like, you know, it doesn't really end up with him, like going back and like becoming Simon, like it's just like, no, I, one of my favorite quotes that I wish I knew off the top of my head, but.
Towards the end of adventure time, one of the later like ice King episodes, there's something in there that's something like, "I'm the ice King and I'm worthy of love too." and it just really like hit because it's just like, you know, when I was watching through the first few episodes, where you like, kind of figure out his backstory, I remember having a lot of like, emotions about it and just the sort of like, Oh man, you know, like dealing with mental health and like kind of this loss of a sense of self, or like sense of like other people that I knew in my life.
Um, And just kind of being like, man, I really want to get that back. Like, it really sucks that that's gone forever. And then like kind of going through a bunch of emotional acts in my own personal tragic backstory TM, um, and then ending up as an adult watching like some of the finale episodes of adventure time and like seeing this little moment happen where he kind of gets away from this, like, you know, sort of like two dimensional, silly villain kind of thing that he does to just be like, Hey, no, like I'm a person also. And you can also like me, you know?
Nick: Right, absolutely.
Alex: I'm my own guy. [laughs]
It's something about that just really hit was just like, no, there's things to love about this too. I also just love on the surface, um, just with him, how much he just, wants affection and like how much that changed over the course of the series and how at the beginning it was very much like, Oh, it was like this creepy old man towards-
Nick: just stealing princesses.
Alex: [laughing] Yeah. Like just stealing princesses and then over the course of the series, just sort of becoming just like, he just wants some pals. He just wants friends.
Nick: Right, and
Alex: just
Nick: kind of figuring out that the companionship that he thought that he wanted with the princesses, he was able to find it in other places with just having friends.
Alex: Right.
Nick: I feel like that's something that people genuinely go through, is you know, thinking that they, really want this relationship, this romantic relationship with people, but, in reality, all they really want and need is like a couple of good friends, a couple of good pals.
Alex: [laughs] Right. And like, that's one of the things that I love a lot about adventure time too, is that I feel like it's a show that very much kind of grew with its audience. Um, and just kind of even using that as an example, and thinking about like, you know, when you're growing up and you're a preteen to like a young teenager and everything is about like, Oh, you gotta date.
And like, you have to find a partner, or something, um, partner feels like a weird term. Cause I started to say like boyfriend or girlfriend, but like, you know, gender neutral something, find someone to date, I guess. Um, and that's like the whole thing that you do, and then just kind of like growing up and being like, Oh, I can get this from other places. I feel like that's so much, like a lot of the tone in the show is just sort of like, just kind of growing up with the people that grew up with it, um, until I kinda came to a close and they did so many satisfying things, with the ice King in like the final season.
And I'm just like, man, if you haven't finished adventure time, then you should really finish adventure time. Cause it's amazing.
Nick: Right, I really want to go through and rewatch it now because-
Alex: Same!
Nick: I vaguely like, I, I know what you're saying and I know that I've like, I know that I've seen it and I know that I know the story, but like I don't have a whole lot to add because I it's been so long since I've seen it like to the point that I believe that if I watched it, it would be like the first time again,
Alex: No, yeah, same.
Nick: So I'm just like-
Alex: It's been a few years.
Nick: Yeah. I'm was just like, I should definitely rewatch that.
Alex: Yeah, like, I feel like that honestly just speaks to how much it hit me uh that this is like my one memory, like the one, my one brain cell is just clinging desperately to the ice King from like, I don't know, 2018 or whatever.
Nick: Absolutely.
Alex: [laughs] But yeah, that was one of my big boys that I really wanted to get to one of my cartoon boys. I'm realizing now how many of mine are very mental health oriented. [laughs]
Nick: Well, I mean, that makes sense. Like, I know that I kind of talked shit about people being defined by their jobs in the beginning, but your job is in mental health and like, [ laughs]
Alex: Yeah, like it's something that I'm passionate about and I feel like I would be passionate about, even if it weren't my job. Um, but yeah, and like, that's definitely a part of the lens that I used to look at media and it shows.
Nick: Right.
Alex: Because my other big boy that I really wanted to talk about today is, from a little show that I feel like doesn't get enough love, and it should get more
Nick: Nowhere near enough love.
Alex: It's amazing. Um, if you haven't watched Kipo on Netflix. I forget what the full title is. I always just call it Kipo
Nick: uh, Kipo and the age of wonder beasts?
Alex: I believe so. Yeah.
Nick: Something like that, but I mean, you can find it just by looking up Kipo. Nothing else is called Kipo.
Alex: Yeah. Like, um, it's a really, really, really good show, and it has a villain that actively made me mad when I started to like him.
Nick: Oh yeah. Same, and I knew, cause I watched it before you watched it. And then we were watching it together and I knew it was going to piss you off when you started to like him, because in the first, like half of the season, it was just very much like, yeah, fuck this guy. I want nothing to do with this guy. Get him off the show. I hate him so much, but I knew the twist that was coming and I was like, you are going to be so mad.
Alex: Get them out of my fucking sight.
Nick: Right. They're just like, Oh, this guy sucks. And I'm like little do you know, he sucks AND he has a tragic backstory.
Alex: Yes. And you're going to love him. [laughs]
Oh my gosh. Scarlemagne, I- oh my God. He also very much follows my theme of villains that I adore when they frustrate me, because they don't, um, know, how to be good. Or like when you, think that they're going to, uh, I know that there's like a term. A term for like, whatever the opposite of a heel turn is, but I don't, I guess like redemption arc.
But like, when you think they're going to have a redemption arc and then they kind of like psych you out with it.
Nick: Right. Because they just don't, you can like, see that they just don't comprehend.
Alex: Right. Like they're just not quite there yet. And like, that's something that they do with Zuko, I feel-
that's something they do with Zuko a few times that made me real mad every time, but I'm also glad that they did it. And it's something that they did with Scarlamagne that I was like, Oh my God, I can't believe that they're doing this. That's amazing. And then they [laughs] and then they faked us out and I was like, Yeah, that's fair. [laughs]
Nick: Right.
Alex: That makes sense, because it makes so much sense for his character. Um, just because so much of what goes on with him is very, again, like the tools that you're given to navigate the world are the ones that you use to navigate the world.
Nick: Absolutely. You know, and when it starts to get into his tragic backstory and right before it kind of shows why he starts thinking the way that he does it's so just, it's so sad because you get to watch him kind of have that mental break and that kind of mental shift of, you know, being really trusting of everything around him, to realizing that the only way that he's going to be able to survive in this world is by being a villain and by being a total asshole and, you know, and the way that the show does it by showing him years after being said asshole, it's just like, ah, man, like, why is he like that?
And then they show you why he's like that. And you're like, I mean-
[both laugh]
-fair that's fair, but I don't like it
Alex: [laughs] That is so true. Like, honestly, just the fact that like walking away from like the episode where you start to figure everything out and I'm just like, you know, a lot of the time I keep coming at things from, uh,
I really like going on the like, am I the asshole? subreddit and I just keep being like, everyone sucks here [laughs] you know, um, and it's just so wild with him, like how he was very much another person where it's like, he does a lot of really awful shit, but like, while he's doing it, you're still just like, no, yeah that's fair. [laughs]
Nick: Right. You know, I feel like it's not too much of a spoiler to say that, you know, he does start to really care for Kipo. She's the main character. And everybody loves her. Like, you know, he starts to really care for her and there's things that she asks of him that he genuinely tries to do. But he's been in this mindset for so long that he just can't.
Really, uh, he thinks that what he's doing is good and to us and, you know, to the other characters, it's so obvious that what he's doing is not good, but he genuinely thinks that he's showing affection at this point, because that's all the affection that he's known for the last like half or more of his life, you know?
Alex: Yeah. And like, it's so interesting with their relationship too, because it reminds me a lot of like the, um, uh, concept in like, Learning in psychology of have like assimilation and accommodation, um, well, where it's basically just like adapting the world around you to like fit your existing worldview when you get new information, versus adapting your worldview when given new information.
And I think that's so much of what makes the bait and switch like really like hit with that whole sequence is that you. I think that it's like, Oh yeah, you see the, you know, he knows that Kipo is good. And like, that means that he's like learned in that his worldview is changing and you know, it doesn't necessarily work like that off the bat, especially when you're dealing with somebody that has that much going on and has had to navigate the world that much with just like so much going against him, I guess, um, that then to see that it was more of a situation of just like, Oh no, this one person is good.
Nick: Right?
Alex: No, everyone else still sucks. But this one person is good. My love language is murder.
Both: [laugh]
Nick: God. I know that we are not popular enough to get somebody to animate a bit, but all I want is for somebodyto animate my love language is murder.
Alex: My love language is murder!
Nick: Like, somebody who's got like little heart eyes and then like they say murder, like a knife shows up. [both laugh] Oh, that would be so funny.
Alex: Oh my God. Just like, add that to like the five love languages.
Um, in order I'd say that I'm usually kind of a gift giver, but outside of that, I do, I do really like murder. [laughs]
Nick: Oh my God.
Alex: Oh, God. [ laughs]
Nick: All right. And this has been Ice Cream Parasocial! [laughs]
Alex: Do not read this in a court of law [laughs]
Nick: but do follow us on Twitter and Instagram @parasocialpod and on, and subscribe to our YouTube channel, uh, Ice Cream Parasocial, and hopefully soon I'll be able to tell you to give us a good rating on iTunes.
Alex: Yeah!
Nick: We'll see ya next week!
Alex: Please. Apple podcasts. Notice us. [both laugh] I'm begging you.
Nick: apple senpai notice me. [laughter, followed by outro song]
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